Wii: Official console of Great Depression 2

[Jain Zar]

Do we really want to start whipping it out and trying to see who the "hardcore" gamers here are?

No, I just don't want people that raid in WoW to be arguing for or against the Wii because it's INSANE to even take an angle when you're grinding away at a 4 year old game.

If they find it fun who are we to question it?
I'd rather deal with so called easy game players than some frame counting fighting game asshat.
I play games to have FUN, not to be challenged, not to be some competitive asshole.
I usually play my games on Easy or Medium difficulty.  Because its FUN.  I pop some podcasts on my iMac, and then play my games.  At work I have the PSP/NGage/DS/iPod Touch/Neo Geo Pocket Color going and I usually am listening to the news on one of the few TVs not permanently on whatever irrelevant ass sports game is on.

I don't mind being engaged, but I don't play games for NES Ninja Gaiden levels of abuse either.  Same reason I avoid most online play.  I have better things to do than hear racist, homophobic, and antisemitic talk to be the toppings of the douchebag shit talk sundae that IS online gaming in general.

I'm sure I have told this story before.  In the Navy there was this fellow dork (well I say fellow, but he was on the antisocial side.  Never invited me to play AD&D or videogames or anything even though I was into into the same shit he was.  Probably because I dared choose the Turbo Duo over the Sega CD.  Gee, 300 bucks for a whole new system that came with tons of games vs 300 bucks for just an add on to a system I had at home?  HMMM..) who always insisted on playing games on the hardest setting.

You knew he was playing videogames because every 3-6 minutes the floor would hear the yells of "MOTHER FUCKER COCK SUCKER", as he would die constantly.  I still remember this and this was freaking 1993.  Don't remember his name, but I do remember his yelling at his videogame.

This does not sound like a good way to spend my free time.

I can and have beaten hard videogames.  Its BAD WRONG FUN to me and anyone who says otherwise can go fuck themselves with a copy of Ninja Gaiden.

[schild]

The reason the Wii is selling so hot is because it has new ideas.

Can you point me to a single, SINGLE truly new idea, please? Just one. Just one new idea for the Wii. Please, by all means, do.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Do we really want to start whipping it out and trying to see who the "hardcore" gamers here are?

No, I just don't want people that raid in WoW to be arguing for or against the Wii because it's INSANE to even take an angle when you're grinding away at a 4 year old game.

If they find it fun who are we to question it?
I'd rather deal with so called easy game players than some frame counting fighting game asshat.
I play games to have FUN, not to be challenged, not to be some competitive asshole.
I usually play my games on Easy or Medium difficulty.  Because its FUN.  I pop some podcasts on my iMac, and then play my games.  At work I have the PSP/NGage/DS/iPod Touch/Neo Geo Pocket Color going and I usually am listening to the news on one of the few TVs not permanently on whatever irrelevant ass sports game is on.

I don't mind being engaged, but I don't play games for NES Ninja Gaiden levels of abuse either.  Same reason I avoid most online play.  I have better things to do than hear racist, homophobic, and antisemitic talk to be the toppings of the douchebag shit talk sundae that IS online gaming in general.

I'm sure I have told this story before.  In the Navy there was this fellow dork (well I say fellow, but he was on the antisocial side.  Never invited me to play AD&D or videogames or anything even though I was into into the same shit he was.  Probably because I dared choose the Turbo Duo over the Sega CD.  Gee, 300 bucks for a whole new system that came with tons of games vs 300 bucks for just an add on to a system I had at home?  HMMM..) who always insisted on playing games on the hardest setting.

You knew he was playing videogames because every 3-6 minutes the floor would hear the yells of "MOTHER FUCKER COCK SUCKER", as he would die constantly.  I still remember this and this was freaking 1993.  Don't remember his name, but I do remember his yelling at his videogame.

This does not sound like a good way to spend my free time.

I can and have beaten hard videogames.  Its BAD WRONG FUN to me and anyone who says otherwise can go fuck themselves with a copy of Ninja Gaiden.

Yeah I can see that some people can take playing fighting games too seriously, but really, some games are just deep and the player base is available,a nd if someone really enjoys playing, and to stay competitive they have to learn higher level stuff, so be it. I don't think it is fair to all them asshats because they enjoy playing Street Fighter, or Tekken, or Virtua Fighter or Guilty Gear at advanced or even tournament level. That is fun to them, and there should be games for people who enjoy fighting games, hard shooters, challenging side scrollers or whatever. If you are comfortable just playing more casual stuff or playign on medium, that is fine, but don't assume that everyone who score attacks Don Pachi, or plays serious Puyo Pop, or plays expert drums on rockband, is automatically too into gaming and therefore a loser. It makes you sound like an asshat and that you are fucking yourself with a copy or Bejewled.

[Jain Zar]

Yeah I can see that some people can take playing fighting games too seriously, but really, some games are just deep and the player base is available,a nd if someone really enjoys playing, and to stay competitive they have to learn higher level stuff, so be it. I don't think it is fair to all them asshats because they enjoy playing Street Fighter, or Tekken, or Virtua Fighter or Guilty Gear at advanced or even tournament level. That is fun to them, and there should be games for people who enjoy fighting games, hard shooters, challenging side scrollers or whatever. If you are comfortable just playing more casual stuff or playign on medium, that is fine, but don't assume that everyone who score attacks Don Pachi, or plays serious Puyo Pop, or plays expert drums on rockband, is automatically too into gaming and therefore a loser. It makes you sound like an asshat and that you are fucking yourself with a copy or Bejewled.

The thing is the hardcore 10% ers tend to be the loudest and most vocal of any game's audience.  And because they get so invested they get paid more attention by the developers which gives them MORE delusions of grandeur and the game gets pushed towards them and not everyone else, which eventually will drive everyone else away.

(See also comic books, Advanced Squad Leader, most MMORPGs, the bullet hell SHMUPs..)

You HAVE to try to bring in new people and make a game accessible for all.  Its why MMORPGs shouldn't just make content for the max/near max level players.  Its why Galaga can still be found in most surviving arcades but your average Treasure styled SHMUP aint.  Its why people will still play Pac Man even if the odds of them playing anything newer are next to nothing.

The competitive groups are fine.. provided they stay in their little niche and stop bothering the majority.

Let's take a modern game as an example.  Fallout.  If the harcore fanbase is to be believed Fallout 3 was doomed to be the shittiest shit that ever shitted from a shit.  Yet its been selling massively well in spite of the hardcore's insistence it look, feel, and play in a manner only they want.  And come to find out, even turn based whores llke myself who would be happy if game technology never passed the abilities of a Voodoo 3 card enjoy it.

Competitive and hardcore players only want what is best for their niche and they basically don't care and are dismissive of everyone else.

Well gaming is a BIIIG market now.  There is room for everyone.  The trick is that some games are only gonna sell to the hardcore, others to the majority, and yet others in the middle someplace.

The problem is when they intersect.

[schild]

There's a difference between the obsessed and hardcore.

The obsessed post on the boards and drive people nuts. The hardcore just play the games and rarely, if ever, post on a message board, unless they have something informational to add. On top of that, they tend to have their own little communities (SRK, f13, etc) where they stay confined and out of people's way - unless someone gets in their way in which case they'll defend it to the death.

Also, I'm going to assume you know NOTHING about the arcade market. Your hardcore shmupper or fighter is going to have their own dedicated cab and the boards. There's a reason Galaga is found in arcades in America - 1. It's retro and that's cool, 2. It makes old people squeel because they're easy to entertain and 3. They already bought it. Finally, outside of the home, arcades are largely dead in America, so comparing Galaga to a CAVE game (good luck finding a Treasure Shmup in America) is just dumb. Anyway, people who want Mushihimesama and Ketsui Black Label already have it in their living room. Much like I have Gal Panic S, MvC2 and Mr. Driller 2. Why go to an arcade when you can just own it.

[Fordel]

Was Mega Man 2 the one with the aquatic stage, that had the giant Robot frogs that barfed out baby robot frogs endlessly, that you would farm with your saw blade power until you maxed your power/health/life reserves?

[schild]

Was Mega Man 2 the one with the aquatic stage, that had the giant Robot frogs that barfed out baby robot frogs endlessly, that you would farm with your saw blade power until you maxed your power/health/life reserves?

Yes, metal blades on bubble man's stage.

[Fordel]

I thought so, but there has been like, 42 Mega Man's since and I've long lost track of what is which.

[Ratman_tf]

I play games to have FUN, not to be challenged,

This is my approach as well. I like to be moderatley challenged, but I don't like to feel that I'm failing at a game because I can't 100% it on ultra-hard mode. I'll leave that to the OCD gamers on Jolt cola.

Mostly I play them to be entertained, and that's an important difference that's part of WoW's success factor, and I suspect part of the success factor of the Wii.

I don't mind being engaged, but I don't play games for NES Ninja Gaiden levels of abuse either.

God that game was a ball-buster. I used to literally throw the cartridge out onto the lawn when I got frustrated. You can get some good distance if you put a decent spin on an NES cartridge, and it was more fun than actually playing the game.

[Jain Zar]

There's a difference between the obsessed and hardcore.

The obsessed post on the boards and drive people nuts. The hardcore just play the games and rarely, if ever, post on a message board, unless they have something informational to add. On top of that, they tend to have their own little communities (SRK, f13, etc) where they stay confined and out of people's way - unless someone gets in their way in which case they'll defend it to the death.

I call bullshit here hoss.  Hardcore and obsessed are the same thing.   You aren't hardcore into a game or genre unless you are a little bit obsessed with it.

Also, I'm going to assume you know NOTHING about the arcade market. Your hardcore shmupper or fighter is going to have their own dedicated cab and the boards. There's a reason Galaga is found in arcades in America - 1. It's retro and that's cool, 2. It makes old people squeel because they're easy to entertain and 3. They already bought it. Finally, outside of the home, arcades are largely dead in America, so comparing Galaga to a CAVE game (good luck finding a Treasure Shmup in America) is just dumb. Anyway, people who want Mushihimesama and Ketsui Black Label already have it in their living room. Much like I have Gal Panic S, MvC2 and Mr. Driller 2. Why go to an arcade when you can just own it.

Not too many people actually own an arcade machine.  Because they are expensive, take up space, and are increasingly hard to find.  Plus the cost/entertainment ratio is honestly SHIT on an arcade game.  Hell, most people blanch at home arcade stick prices.  I have more retrocollections than Carter's got pills and I blanch at it!  (Id still drop a C note on a decent stick compatible with: PS2, Xbox 360, Mac/PC, and Wii/Gamecube.  Dual Bat sticks, 6 action buttons plus start/select, and a trackball.   Something like that would run closer to 200 by my admittedly casual investigations.)

(Of course if I could get an Atari Star Wars machine for under 600 sit down, 300 standard including delivery my ass would own one.  Its my favorite arcade game of all time and one that no home version can ever reproduce correctly due to the control method.  The only other machines I would have to own would be Top Skater, or Daytona USA which are stupidly large and would cost an insanely stupid amount.  Others I would happily get for under 150: Rygar, Gi Joe, Indiana Jones Temple of Doom, Virtual On, Raiden 2, any of the Alien games.  I'm discounting pinball here, but I would LOOOVE to get my hands on a Jurassic Park or Star Wars pinball machine.  Having to upkeep the machine would be a nightmare, but still!)

I am quite aware the US arcade scene is dead or dying.  Appealing to the hardcore was a small part of this.  Why play some numbnut THAT GUY for 50cents-1dollar a pop when you can play the same game at home eternally for 20-50 bucks? And have expanded content to it and choose your own difficulty setting?  Arcades became increasingly SHMUP, Fighter, Lightgun, Racer, and now ticket redemption games only.  If it wasn't for Neo Geo machines it would be even worse.  (At least once in a while they had something other than fighters.)

And I KNOW you did not diss Galaga, which IS the best fucking SHMUP ever made.  Its easy to learn, accessible, and FUN.  That's why its popular.  You have 3 controls.  Left, Right, Shoot.  Its Space Invaders taken to its best.  Its why even its sequels never really outshone it. (Gaplus. Galaga 88, Galaga Remix)  It goes to the heart of it.  Some games are eternal classics because they fuckin knocked the ball out of the park to start with.  You hardly even need instructions for them.  Outside of looking prettier can Arkanoid, Tetris, or Bubble Bobble really be done better?  People STILL adore Donkey Kong, Defender, Ms Pac Man, Asteroids, and Robotron.   Im not even a fan of Defender or Robotron but I understand why they have such devotion.  

If you look at the most noteworthy arcade collectors' displays they tend to make them fit the atmosphere of an 80s arcade.  There was something about those things.  And from all reports normal people go gaga if they have a friend or are invited into a home with that sort of awesome den.  If I had time, money, and desire I would do up one like that.  Neon signs, 80s music..   That shit RULED.  Even little 6-8 year old me was entranced.  The base arcades from the early 90s when I was in the Navy were pretty awesome too, especially when killing time waiting for my Battletech Center games across the mall.   (I went to Chicago once every month or so to play Battletech Center at the North Pier Mall.  Still have some of my game record sheets!)

And is that Gal Panic a shooter or the infamous porno Qix clone?  If its the later I must facepalm.

You ARE proving my point for me though.  Saying Galaga aint shit and all because its so simple and accessible.  OMG WHY ELSE WOULD SOMEONE PLAY A GAME APPROACHING ITS 30TH ANNIVERSARY!?

It sure couldn't be because it was a great game or anything....  

[Jain Zar]

I play games to have FUN, not to be challenged,

This is my approach as well. I like to be moderatley challenged, but I don't like to feel that I'm failing at a game because I can't 100% it on ultra-hard mode. I'll leave that to the OCD gamers on Jolt cola.

Mostly I play them to be entertained, and that's an important difference that's part of WoW's success factor, and I suspect part of the success factor of the Wii.

Yeah, WoW is fun for that.  You can fuck around and still have fun.  Unlike EQ and FF11 it lets you enjoy yourself.  Even take some risks since the penalties are a minor inconvenience.
The XP debt and megagrind is what lead me to leave City of Heroes.  I liked my Blaster.  She was sort of a redheaded Samus Aran or as close as I could get.  She stopped being fun at a certain level and had more debt than I knew what to do with.  Sure my Scrapper rocked out, but the XP debt and grind made my style of fun breezy exploratory risktaking play a dangerous proposition.
(I would say Asheron's Call was another good one, but it had the stupid item penalty which ruined an otherwise neato game in spite of its sub Playstation 1 level graphics.)
(Ive heard CoH finally dropped the debt thing according to the hostess of a local LARP group but until the Mac client gets finished I won't know for sure.)

God that game was a ball-buster. I used to literally throw the cartridge out onto the lawn when I got frustrated. You can get some good distance if you put a decent spin on an NES cartridge, and it was more fun than actually playing the game.

I actually beat the first 2 NGs as a teenager.  I got NG 1 for the Wii VC and level 6 just made me give up.  Oh not because of the cheese, I got through it.  But then losing to a boss and having to do the ENTIRE FUCKING LEVEL OVER made me say fuck it.  Take one of the most abusive levels ever made that isn't in Battletoads or a Lucasarts X Wing title and making you redo the whole thing if you died to the first boss is bullshit.  I don't have that sort of time or patience.  Plus for all I know since its been nearly 20 years since I beat NG originally losing to a later boss might mean I have to beat all the bosses in a row with one lifebar in some sadistic boss rush.

Making things for the elite intentionally is dickish.  Its why I don't get mad the Advance Wars games have the same rough difficulty level.  Just because I have beaten every one of them and tons of the challenge levels doesn't mean Joe Gamer has.  Intelligent Systems doesn't make the games to please me, they make it for everyone.  Hence I find most of the games not too hard especially when I figure out the trick to the level when many people consider them tough.  Every game installment in a series is someone's first experience with the franchise.

The days of Ultima and Bard's Tale autosaving your PC's deaths to disk, Wizardry's sheer level of abuse (taken to OBSCENE levels in Return of Werdna), or your average UK made game's sheer levels of hell are thankfully over.  Its not coddling.  Its an understanding that everyone who buys a game ought to have a fair shot at seeing the whole thing. 

Leave the digital dickwaving to the Korean RTSers, the Fatalities, and the Billy Mitchells of the world.  Give the rest of us FUN.

Or at least make it so everyone can enjoy the game on their own terms.  Like Guitar Hero.  Multiple difficulty levels set to engage people of every skill level.  I would have never bought more than the original if I couldn't have played it on Easy and gotten used to that sort of game, eventually raising to Medium where I am now generally happy and having fun.  Outside of end tier game songs I usually 5 star them all.  Its at a level I find fun and enjoyable and am not frustrated.

The same with the old Street Fighter 2 on the SNES.  I got good at it by playing it on every difficulty level, though the last 2-3 stars ceased being fun and were more an adventure in exploiting a cheating ass AI with imbalanced boss characters.  (Max level Bison was cheese on a level only exceeded by Mortal Kombat and King of Fighters franchise bosses.)  If it had one difficulty level we would know as HARD I would have never completed it or ever bought another SF game.  Hell, it might have put me off the genre entirely.  Its one big mistake most Neo Geo arcade cabinets had.  Every owner put them at hard and those fighting games were usually sick on lower levels anyhow!

[schild]

There's a difference between the obsessed and hardcore.

The obsessed post on the boards and drive people nuts. The hardcore just play the games and rarely, if ever, post on a message board, unless they have something informational to add. On top of that, they tend to have their own little communities (SRK, f13, etc) where they stay confined and out of people's way - unless someone gets in their way in which case they'll defend it to the death.

I call bullshit here hoss.  Hardcore and obsessed are the same thing.   You aren't hardcore into a game or genre unless you are a little bit obsessed with it.

You're only saying that because you want them to be the same thing. They aren't. Sorry. Sure, some people cross over, you're hardcore and obsessed with TBS titles. It's pretty obvious to anyone that's been reading your post for a few years. Me? I have an excuse, I run a site about gaming.

Because they are expensive, take up space, and are increasingly hard to find.

I stopped there, you know nothing. They are in fact becoming cheaper and easier to find, but thanks for trying. Protip: Arcade sites regulars do full carton (as in warehouse giant metal thing) full of  japanese arcade machines and often people are replacing their own. I was even able to find the exact cab I wanted in Arizona less than a month or so after I decided I wanted one. Ironically, I found it on Craigslist - we're talking make and model exact. Just saying, your knowledge of this is incredibly small if you think that and I don't know how you managed to post so much after that sentence. Rarity is a matter of perception for people that haven't done the research.

More edit: OK, admittedly I read your post and yes, Gal Panic S is the Qix clone. Arguably the best version of Qix available actually, but I'll just assume you haven't researched that either.

[Velorath]

This has turned into a politics thread without the politics.

[Valmorian]

You're only saying that because you want them to be the same thing.

Are you sure you aren't just denying it because you DON'T want it to be true? 

In any case, I think that anyone who has an arcade console let alone multiple arcade consoles in their home qualifies as "obsessed" to MOST people.

[Sluggo140]

With all the arcade machines in homes  I'm finding a disturbing reference to rule 34 here. Though I will not go looking for that one.

There is something to be said about the pragmatic value of an arcade machine. It invokes a different experience for each of us at a different time. Does playing star wars on a mame emulator qualify as the same experience as sitting in the machine in the fall of 84 at the bowling alley, smelling the smoke, hearing the pinball, the pain of running out of quarters. I don't think so. I think that playing the games isn't the same as actually having the game and being able to relive the experience. I'm not so sure its about hardcore vs. obsessed but merely about the quality of the experience. Just like post about galaga earlier, its fun its retro, everyone can play it. Personally I was all about Mr. Do's Castle and Sinistar when I was a kid. That beign said I gotta give props to those that have the stand up machines in their living room, I'll just make sure I bring clorox wipes if I want to play them.

[Jain Zar]

I stopped there, you know nothing. They are in fact becoming cheaper and easier to find, but thanks for trying. Protip: Arcade sites regulars do full carton (as in warehouse giant metal thing) full of  japanese arcade machines and often people are replacing their own. I was even able to find the exact cab I wanted in Arizona less than a month or so after I decided I wanted one. Ironically, I found it on Craigslist - we're talking make and model exact. Just saying, your knowledge of this is incredibly small if you think that and I don't know how you managed to post so much after that sentence. Rarity is a matter of perception for people that haven't done the research.

More edit: OK, admittedly I read your post and yes, Gal Panic S is the Qix clone. Arguably the best version of Qix available actually, but I'll just assume you haven't researched that either.

Japanese machines maybe, but you won't find many US collectors of them.  We generally want large stand up machines the way God intended.  (Because cocktail machines are so sought after most of the time there is no point in trying really.  Even though I wouldn't mind having a Satan's Hollow machine I remember a burger joint having 20+ years ago.)  Ok.. maybe I wouldn't mind getting the topdown Macross DYRL SHMUP I played in Crete in 93-94 but that's because its fucking MACROSS DYRL and not because its a Japanese cabinet.
Though some home arcade folks do recommend getting Japanese gambling machines to fill out a collection.  Pachinko, Pachislots.. apparently even big name liscensed machines go for around a C note.

And while in the Navy I actually played the first 2 Gals Panic games because they had them on base no less.  Looking back they really weren't that good of games.  Plus also, they were sad porno games.  Though being from Japan I guess it wasn't a rape filled lolifest so it had one thing up on the rest of its genre...

And I appreciate being told I don't know shit.  Its nice.  Maybe my region and life situation may be different than yours hmm?  I sure as fuck don't have the sort of money you seem to throw around on games every month.
Oh well.. you can't help it.  The PS3 doing a slow nosedive into irrelevance outside of something to laugh at must be driving you bonkers.
My only major gaming irritation is Sega not giving us Sega Ages Phantasy Star 1, 2, and Dragon Force in English.

[schild]

We generally want large stand up machines the way God intended. 

Don't include yourself with the general We. Also, cocktail tables are still custom made in nearly every state in America because the demand is high enough for home usage. They're over priced though and you can often get a used one.

And I appreciate being told I don't know shit.  Its nice.  Maybe my region and life situation may be different than yours hmm?

No, this is the internet, it has nothing to do with the region and life situation, but given your assumptions about the home arcade market, it's fairly obvious I just read more. I wasn't insulting your lifestyle, I was insulting your assumptions about a market you don't nearly fully understand or understand even a little.

Also, obvious troll is obvious. Nice try though.

That beign said I gotta give props to those that have the stand up machines in their living room, I'll just make sure I bring clorox wipes if I want to play them.

I imagine there are folks that have arcade machines that are anal retentive enough to make you wipe them down like that and such. But folks with japanese cabs tend to have cigarette burns already in them (mine had them, I imagine there was some old guy smoking Seven Stars getting angry at some obscure horse racing game). Japanese cabs have space to put drinks and ashtrays down. Also, they're made to be sat at, I like that.

As for the other bit, I have the arcade machine simply to play certain games that were never released for consoles and to have experiences that were never replicated on consoles. Seriously, Arcade machines never really matched the home console feel. Also, Neo-Geo is cheaper in arcade form. Odds are, despite having some ultra rare titles, I spent less money on the arcade machine and all my Neo Geo games than I would have if I got a Neo Geo AES system.

[ezrast]

Because I liked this thread better before it was about arcade machines:

If they find it fun who are we to question it?
I'd rather deal with so called easy game players than some frame counting fighting game asshat.
I play games to have FUN, not to be challenged, not to be some competitive asshole.

Is there something I'm missing that makes this not blatant hypocrisy? Serious question.

Yeah I can see that some people can take playing fighting games too seriously, but really, some games are just deep and the player base is available,a nd if someone really enjoys playing, and to stay competitive they have to learn higher level stuff, so be it. I don't think it is fair to all them asshats because they enjoy playing Street Fighter, or Tekken, or Virtua Fighter or Guilty Gear at advanced or even tournament level. That is fun to them, and there should be games for people who enjoy fighting games, hard shooters, challenging side scrollers or whatever. If you are comfortable just playing more casual stuff or playign on medium, that is fine, but don't assume that everyone who score attacks Don Pachi, or plays serious Puyo Pop, or plays expert drums on rockband, is automatically too into gaming and therefore a loser. It makes you sound like an asshat and that you are fucking yourself with a copy or Bejewled.

The thing is the hardcore 10% ers tend to be the loudest and most vocal of any game's audience.  And because they get so invested they get paid more attention by the developers which gives them MORE delusions of grandeur and the game gets pushed towards them and not everyone else, which eventually will drive everyone else away.

(See also comic books, Advanced Squad Leader, most MMORPGs, the bullet hell SHMUPs..)

You HAVE to try to bring in new people and make a game accessible for all.  Its why MMORPGs shouldn't just make content for the max/near max level players.  Its why Galaga can still be found in most surviving arcades but your average Treasure styled SHMUP aint.  Its why people will still play Pac Man even if the odds of them playing anything newer are next to nothing.

The competitive groups are fine.. provided they stay in their little niche and stop bothering the majority.

Let's take a modern game as an example.  Fallout.  If the harcore fanbase is to be believed Fallout 3 was doomed to be the shittiest shit that ever shitted from a shit.  Yet its been selling massively well in spite of the hardcore's insistence it look, feel, and play in a manner only they want.  And come to find out, even turn based whores llke myself who would be happy if game technology never passed the abilities of a Voodoo 3 card enjoy it.

Competitive and hardcore players only want what is best for their niche and they basically don't care and are dismissive of everyone else.

Well gaming is a BIIIG market now.  There is room for everyone.  The trick is that some games are only gonna sell to the hardcore, others to the majority, and yet others in the middle someplace.

The problem is when they intersect.

(is it still SirBrucing if the quotes are from different posts?)
No, the problem is when people don't realize that a game can be accessible and deep at the same time. Anything else is just bad game design. Smash Brothers and Soul Calibur are great at this; they give dedicated, technical players lots of stuff to do while still allowing button mashy newbs the chance to get some flashy effects and pull off the occasional cheese combo. Catering to both groups is important. If there's no depth to keep players around, the game will never develop a real fan base, but if there's no accessibility then it turns into a cult game consisting of the few willing to deal with the learning curve.

But it's always the competitive players - the ones with the best understanding of the game they're playing - that take the shit for wanting the game to be fun for them. How is telling us to "stay in [our] little niche and stop bothering the majority" constructive? We're not the ones telling you you're having fun the wrong way. When, exactly, have dedicated players made a game get "pushed towards them and not everyone else"? Improving balance and high-level play generally doesn't hurt low-level players, and if it does that's the dev's fault, not the gamers'.

Hammer Frenzy mentioned chess, and that's a pretty good parallel. I don't make fun of chess players for reading books on chess, memorizing openings, etc. even though I don't find chess theory particularly interesting myself. Nobody questions those people's ability to enjoy their chosen pastime. But try to get good at Street Fighter or something and suddenly they're a competitive asshole who hates fun. What gives?

Was Mega Man 2 the one with the aquatic stage, that had the giant Robot frogs that barfed out baby robot frogs endlessly, that you would farm with your saw blade power until you maxed your power/health/life reserves?

I see what you did there. It's still a terrible analogy.

[schild]

Pachinko, Pachislots.. apparently even big name liscensed machines go for around a C note.

You can get a Metal Slug Pachislot machine for about $500-$600. New Pachislots go for $800 from certain dealers, often with big name licenses. Well, big names in the arcade world.

[HaemishM]

The reason the Wii is selling so hot is because it has new ideas.

Can you point me to a single, SINGLE truly new idea, please? Just one. Just one new idea for the Wii. Please, by all means, do.

Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (and 2009 next year). Rather than controlling one individual on the pitch with the analog stick, you select a player and move him along a path with the pointer - and you can also move other players at the same time as the main player with the ball using the pointer. So you can control runs into the box, defensive assignments and team communication without having to rely on AI for everything but the player you are controlling, all in real time. It works astoundingly well on offense, though defensively, you are better served with analog movement.

Oh you thought I was going to say sword swinging in Red Steel?

[schild]

No, I thought you wouldn't say they turned soccer into an RTS since the Wii doesn't have precise controls.

[HaemishM]

It's precise enough for the purpose. It was good enough that EA stole it for their 09 version of FIFA (which they then fucked up by making the analog stick controls REALLY SLOPPY). For a sports action game, adding in that bit of tactics and making it intuitively easy to use is most certainly new.

[schild]

It's precise enough for the purpose. It was good enough that EA stole it for their 09 version of FIFA (which they then fucked up by making the analog stick controls REALLY SLOPPY). For a sports action game, adding in that bit of tactics and making it intuitively easy to use is most certainly new.

It's a new implementation of an old, rehashed, but polished idea. It's not a new idea, it's just remapping controls from one genre onto another - which is basically the flavor du jour for developing for the Wii - just remap things that already work and exist while doing your port. Now, as elegant as it may be, it's not new - novel? Ok, I can accept novel. But new? Comeon Haem, you're better than that.

[Jain Zar]

No, this is the internet, it has nothing to do with the region and life situation, but given your assumptions about the home arcade market, it's fairly obvious I just read more. I wasn't insulting your lifestyle, I was insulting your assumptions about a market you don't nearly fully understand or understand even a little.

Also, obvious troll is obvious. Nice try though.

This whole thread keeps continuing because you don't understand the videogame market.
I don't troll, and if I did I would do it someplace like RPGnet who is full of whiney uberliberal pussy ass bitches with shitty taste in PnP RPGs.  Cuz the outrage over dumb shit would be waay funnier.
While you may have a great many faults, you tend not to cry like a bitch or throw around your admin powers.  Which I respect even if I wonder if we are even from the same fucking planet.

[schild]

Jain, it's probably best if you take an angle that doesn't imply that you're somehow on the Everyman Planet and I'm off on Jupiter or something.

[Valmorian]

Now, as elegant as it may be, it's not new - novel? Ok, I can accept novel. But new? Comeon Haem, you're better than that.

Um, novel and new are synonyms.

[schild]

Now, as elegant as it may be, it's not new - novel? Ok, I can accept novel. But new? Comeon Haem, you're better than that.

Um, novel and new are synonyms.

Then I chose a bad word. I blame Phildo and his streaming of bad indie CMJ music for my lack of ability to discern good and bad choices of wording. The same would happen to you if you were listening to Of Montreal and Bloc Party.

[Yegolev]

There's something new on the Wii.  It's the huge uptake of a game console with a piece of ass for a controller.  There are some games on the Wii that I like, but the Wiimote itself makes my brain baby kick.  Boom Blox is awesome, but the accuracy of the pointer means I take five times longer to line up a shot than I should.  My Life as a King is super cool, but I don't like the Wiimote flopping around in my lap like an extra dick tied to my Classic Controller.  Metroid Prime 3 was worse with the Wiimote due to the lack of accuracy working in tandem with learning a new control scheme to cause a tumor to develop in each of my eyeballs.

Finally, De Blob.  This is a decently fun game and my boy loves it.  I decided not to BIIF this for two reasons.  One is that most people here aren't going to turn on their Wii to play it.  Two is that you waggle to jump, and this causes me to make so many fucking mistakes that it's ludicrous.  A platform game where you waggle to jump is bad, especially when the waggling with my right hand causes me to mis-aim with my left and jump to the wrong place, fucking up a challenge.  Luckily, the game is fairly easy so it's not a deal-breaker, but the control isn't fun despite the game being fun.  Just allowing me to remap the controls would skyrocket this game to a "Buy it" once I set A to jump and B to compass.  The retarded bit?  Currently A does compass and B does nothing.

Finally, my boy begged me to get World of Goo on the Wii.  I did and I keep thinking how much more awesome it would be on the PC.  The Wiimote pointer is balls.  If I were a developer that loved my game, I would port it to Wii for the money but I would not develop it for the Wii for the children.

[schild]

I did and I keep thinking how much more awesome it would be on the PC.

Then go buy it from 2D boy, it was released on PC the day before the Wii.

Edit: And yes, it's very good on the PC.

[HaemishM]

It's precise enough for the purpose. It was good enough that EA stole it for their 09 version of FIFA (which they then fucked up by making the analog stick controls REALLY SLOPPY). For a sports action game, adding in that bit of tactics and making it intuitively easy to use is most certainly new.

It's a new implementation of an old, rehashed, but polished idea. It's not a new idea, it's just remapping controls from one genre onto another

Not really, but we'll go with that thought process. What is action RPG's but remapping fighting game controls onto an RPG structure? What is sports games like Madden but remapping the controls from platforming onto a single player on the field?

By your criteria, there is nothing new under the sun. Which is probably true, but really, stop trying to find reasons to bag on the Wii. You don't like it, fair enough. But saying it's brought nothing new to the game is being pedantic. It's bordering on Comic Book Guy at this point.

[schild]

It's precise enough for the purpose. It was good enough that EA stole it for their 09 version of FIFA (which they then fucked up by making the analog stick controls REALLY SLOPPY). For a sports action game, adding in that bit of tactics and making it intuitively easy to use is most certainly new.

It's a new implementation of an old, rehashed, but polished idea. It's not a new idea, it's just remapping controls from one genre onto another

Not really, but we'll go with that thought process. What is action RPG's but remapping fighting game controls onto an RPG structure? What is sports games like Madden but remapping the controls from platforming onto a single player on the field?

By your criteria, there is nothing new under the sun. Which is probably true, but really, stop trying to find reasons to bag on the Wii. You don't like it, fair enough. But saying it's brought nothing new to the game is being pedantic. It's bordering on Comic Book Guy at this point.

I never claimed anyone else was bringing anything new to the table either. I'm just a fan of quelling all the bullshit that the Wii somehow did. Bringing Grandma to the table isn't new. It just shows how simple-minded Grandmas are when it comes to technology

[Warskull]

Jain, it's probably best if you take an angle that doesn't imply that you're somehow on the Everyman Planet and I'm off on Jupiter or something.

Jain is correct to a degree though.  You don't like the Wii, you don't want to like the Wii, and to some degree you don't understand how anyone could like the Wii.  You let this dislike of the Wii bleed over and you make Nintendo out to be a great evil and destroying gaming as we know it.  Game wise the Wii is just like the Gamecube, primarily supported by Nintendo with a handful of good third-party titles, it just sold a hell of a lot more units than the Gamecube because the motion controls are interesting for a lot of people.  Not much changed about Nintendo from the Gamecube to the Wii.  They still attempt to maintain a family friendly image, they still put out titles with unusual appeal (Animal Crossing, Mario Paint), they just are now working a new market they discovered on top of what they did before.

The players are still the same in this generation of consoles, they still do the same things they did before, the sales numbers are just different.  Nintendo made a smart move when they saw a niche for a lower priced console, Sony overestimated loyalty when they priced their console so high and got it out the door last.

[UnSub]

(Ive heard CoH finally dropped the debt thing according to the hostess of a local LARP group but until the Mac client gets finished I won't know for sure.)

CoH/V Mac client is now in open beta. There is still xp debt in-game, but the xp curve has been "smoothed out" and the title isn't as grindy as it once was.

Now, to return you to your previously scheduled show "Old School Gamers Complain That Kids These Days Don't Know What Gaming Is, Dagnabit".

[HaemishM]

Bringing Grandma to the table isn't new. It just shows how simple-minded Grandmas are when it comes to technology

Yes, because the demographics for the PS1 skewed so heavily towards the Geritol set.

Bringing Grandma to buy a $250 video game console FOR HERSELF is most certainly new. Getting Grandma to also buy another game beyond the pack-in game is seriously new. Getting a bunch of housewives to buy a video game console AND a $90 balance board IS new. It may not trip your trigger, but it is most certainly new in terms of the video game industry. Those demographics took forever to adapt to fucking email and that was mostly free once you got a computer. And it all comes down to the ease of interface with the console, which for all its flaws, is still more intuitive than a goddamn Dual Shock.

[Yegolev]

I did and I keep thinking how much more awesome it would be on the PC.

Then go buy it from 2D boy, it was released on PC the day before the Wii.

Edit: And yes, it's very good on the PC.

Oh, I know it's on PC.  I'll probably skip it, though, since that first level with the fucking frog make YEGO SMASH.

Not much changed about Nintendo from the Gamecube to the Wii.  They still attempt to maintain a family friendly image, they still put out titles with unusual appeal (Animal Crossing, Mario Paint), they just are now working a new market they discovered on top of what they did before.

I'll have to disagree here.  Nintendo is lazier and more arrogant than ever, which I didn't think was possible.  The lack of decent games on the Wii, regardless of whether they are ruined by waggle or not, is terrible.  No need to list them, we can all remember them as well as the suspicious cult ones like No More Heroes.  Unlike Nintendo's previous consoles, there are less than ten good games and literally a thousand games equal to or worse than The Sims Castaway.  I'm not bagging on Nintendo's business sense, I'm just complaining that my meager expectations are not being met in the Wii space.  Best game I have played on my Wii so far?  It's a toss-up between Super Mario World and Super Metroid.

Yeah.