Wii: Official console of Great Depression 2

[UnSub]

I just read an article that called the Wii "the most bought and least played" console of this generation. Seemed appropriate.

The big difference with the Wii is that anyone can play it - my wife hasn't touched a console since the Atari 2600 and my son is 4. Both can play Wii games. Hopefully someone at MS / Sony noticed this for the next generation of control systems.

[Big Gulp]

The big difference with the Wii is that anyone can play it - my wife hasn't touched a console since the Atari 2600 and my son is 4. Both can play Wii games. Hopefully someone at MS / Sony noticed this for the next generation of control systems.

Sorry to say it, but fuck those people.  They aren't gamers and have no real desire to be.  Just because a significant portion of the population is intimidated by a game pad or mouse/keyboard isn't my problem.  Let 'em hang out in the Nintendo ghetto.  I'm quite happy to be an elitist in this regard if it means my games aren't brought down to a level where a retarded chimp can play 'em.

[Velorath]

The big difference with the Wii is that anyone can play it - my wife hasn't touched a console since the Atari 2600 and my son is 4. Both can play Wii games. Hopefully someone at MS / Sony noticed this for the next generation of control systems.

Sorry to say it, but fuck those people.  They aren't gamers and have no real desire to be.  Just because a significant portion of the population is intimidated by a game pad or mouse/keyboard isn't my problem.  Let 'em hang out in the Nintendo ghetto.  I'm quite happy to be an elitist in this regard if it means my games aren't brought down to a level where a retarded chimp can play 'em.

The 4 year old son might very well have a desire to be a gamer, and there are a lot of parents who grew up with games now who buy a Wii to get their kids into games.

[mutantmagnet]

So Biggulp, you're a fan of this turd?


Simple controls doesn't equate to inferior games. Besides it's not as if the Wii remote is lacking in sophistication. The Xbox and PS3 controllers can't match what it does.

What has always been important is whether or not games could be made with the Wiimote in mind, that couldn't be achieved on the other systems, without being frustrated by the controllers they use, which in turn reduces your ability to have fun with the game.

You simply can't play Bloomblox on other controllers like you could on the Wii.

From observation Trauma Center probably wouldn't have been possible and a reviewer from IGN claims neither would've Elebits.

That concludes the amount of games I can think of that requires motions.

As for games that lose out significantly with a gamepad over a remote:

After playing some FPS on the Xbox I find Metroid to be a completely better experience.

From observation games like Zack and Wiki, SSX Blur and Madden 07 wouldn't have gotten as much praise without the motion tech.

[schild]

Any game at all could be mapped to a controller, don't even try to fly around here with that bullshit.

Also, the Jaguar was your console of choice (for this argument)? Apparently you never played one, but the numpad was basically used for utility in most cases and in some of the cases (some FPS titles and such where you used it for weapons), it worked fairly well.

Zack and Wiki would've gotten just as much praise as a downloadable for the XBL or PSN. Saying otherwise is as stupid as saying Braid would've gotten more praise for being on the Wii.

Please, form better arguments. Just because we're biased against the Wii doesn't mean we're stupid. It mostly just means the Wii is a piece of trash.

[schild]

The big difference with the Wii is that anyone can play it - my wife hasn't touched a console since the Atari 2600 and my son is 4. Both can play Wii games. Hopefully someone at MS / Sony noticed this for the next generation of control systems.

Sorry to say it, but fuck those people.  They aren't gamers and have no real desire to be.  Just because a significant portion of the population is intimidated by a game pad or mouse/keyboard isn't my problem.  Let 'em hang out in the Nintendo ghetto.  I'm quite happy to be an elitist in this regard if it means my games aren't brought down to a level where a retarded chimp can play 'em.

The 4 year old son might very well have a desire to be a gamer, and there are a lot of parents who grew up with games now who buy a Wii to get their kids into games.

I'm going to go off on a spree here that may sound insane because it partly is. The Wii will not prepare children for complex games and as a result, future games will be simplified to meet the audience of useless, stupid teenagers. We're already seeing it with the PlayStation era gamers, though not as much as it would be with the Wii. Our generation was cut on the Atari, Nintendo, and SNES. Systems with needlessly complex gameplay in some cases, horrible control, and a host of things that made us more tolerant to pain. There's no doubt in my mind that games are getting easier these days (sure, ok, perhaps I'm in the tiny tiny demographic who's reaction skills are increasing - but I claim that more on the fact I still spend more time with twitch than say... WoW), and things are only going to get worse. In short, yea, parents are buying Wiis for their kids as a gateway drug but we can only hope they ween off that right quick. My suggestion? Every kid be forced to play Mega Man 9 to completion, on one credit. If I could do it at eight with Mega Man 2, these little runts can do it with 9.

Edit: Woo, that was a load of elitism. Tl; dr - I don't like my games to be EASY. I don't mind some games being easy, but more often than not, I find games laughable these days.

[Trippy]

So what you are saying is that in a future generation when our ability to fend off an alien invasion is dependent on the reflexes of our children we're going to be fucked?

Edit: to be or not to be

[schild]

So what you are saying is that in a future generation when our ability to fend off an alien invasion is dependent on the reflexes of our children we're going to fucked?

Nah, once we implement the Ender's Game program we're going to be taking the best and brightest and put them through a rigorous test of nigh unbeatable Nintendo games like Battletoads and such. We'll be fine, barely. Once that generations childrens have to save us, we are screeeeeeewwwwwwwweeeeeeeeedddddd.

[mutantmagnet]

Any game at all could be mapped to a controller, don't even try to fly around here with that bullshit.

Sure any game could be mapped to a controller but does that make them good games?

No and this just goes back to my point abut RTS and FPS. The wii remote offers a level of control gamepads don't. Pro Evo 08 is proving that point.

Zack and Wiki would've gotten just as much praise as a downloadable for the XBL or PSN.

Well I have yet to play Zack and Wiki hence I could only talk about it from an observational viewpoint. And from what I've observed people praised the controls just as much as the puzzles hence my feelings on that it may not be as much fun without them and that's the point.

Even if Z+W could be played on a controller does it actually make it an equally enjoyable experience? I doubt Z+W would've been more than just a point and click style Adventure game with other controllers.

The Wii will not prepare children for complex games and as a result, future games will be simplified to meet the audience of useless, stupid teenagers.

That's the fault of the developer, not the medium.

You can't get any more basic than the joystick with orange button from the Commodore64 games or the nes pad. I used both in the same time period and each had tough as well as easy mode games.


I personally just wish all developers offered a hard and easy setting.

I was getting bored with Zelda until I got to the frozen region were enemies actually offered something resembling a challenge. They still couldn't kill me but atleast I was running around with low health now and again.

[schild]

Any game at all could be mapped to a controller, don't even try to fly around here with that bullshit.

Sure any game could be mapped to a controller but does that make them good games?

Any game could be mapped to the wiimote. Does that make them good? I already said stop it with the stupid arguments, but between this and Darkfall, you're starting to look more insane than originally thought.

No and this just goes back to my point abut RTS and FPS. The wii remote offers a level of control gamepads don't. Pro Evo 08 is proving that point.

Unfortunately, you're wrong. While the Wiimote is theoretically better for shooters than the control pads, it's still going to look like a dog and run like ass and you might as well be playing it on a computer because it's still not better than a keyboard and mouse. Now, is it better for lightgun shooters/rail shooters? Not even then. The Guncon is still a far better and more accurate peripheral.

Zack and Wiki would've gotten just as much praise as a downloadable for the XBL or PSN.

Well I have yet to play Zack and Wiki hence I could only talk about it from an observational viewpoint.

THEN DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

[Ratman_tf]

Edit: Woo, that was a load of elitism. Tl; dr - I don't like my games to be EASY. I don't mind some games being easy, but more often than not, I find games laughable these days.

You'd make a damn fine poopsock raider, Schild. It's a shame you're not bitching on the WoW boards about how dumbed down Wrath raiding is. 

[schild]

Edit: Woo, that was a load of elitism. Tl; dr - I don't like my games to be EASY. I don't mind some games being easy, but more often than not, I find games laughable these days.

You'd make a damn fine poopsock raider, Schild. It's a shame you're not bitching on the WoW boards about how dumbed down Wrath raiding is. 

Other than MMOGs are fucking easy and aren't doing anything to hurt my case.

You <-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> The point.

The sheer fact so many people can be successful in WoW is a fairly good argument to the fact that it's one of the easiest games ever made. Ever. EVER.

[Ratman_tf]

Edit: Woo, that was a load of elitism. Tl; dr - I don't like my games to be EASY. I don't mind some games being easy, but more often than not, I find games laughable these days.

You'd make a damn fine poopsock raider, Schild. It's a shame you're not bitching on the WoW boards about how dumbed down Wrath raiding is. 

Other than MMOGs are fucking easy and aren't doing anything to hurt my case.

You <-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> The point.

The sheer fact so many people can be successful in WoW is a fairly good argument to the fact that it's one of the easiest games ever made. Ever. EVER.

Ever?

[schild]

Indeed.

[mutantmagnet]

Sure any game could be mapped to a controller but does that make them good games?

Any game could be mapped to the wiimote. Does that make them good?[/quote]

You intentionally parsed this statement from the follow up I made about RTS and FPS. Your criticism is invalid here.

Unfortunately, you're wrong. While the Wiimote is theoretically better for shooters than the control pads, it's still going to look like a dog and run like ass and you might as well be playing it on a computer because it's still not better than a keyboard and mouse. Now, is it better for lightgun shooters/rail shooters? Not even then. The Guncon is still a far better and more accurate peripheral.

The wiimote has certain issues, but using it in the same capacity as the Guncon isn't one of them.
You are correct that mouse and keyboard is the way to go but a console isn't meant to be used like a pc. I'm interested how they can push forward technology in their own ways.

Like you I'm interested in what devs can do with things like gpu and cpu but where we differ is that my sense of curiosity is broad enough to accept what the wii is trying to do.

What you see as insanity in me is really a reflection of how you aren't as broadminded as myself.

[schild]

Yes, you're the future. Obviously.

[UnSub]

The big difference with the Wii is that anyone can play it - my wife hasn't touched a console since the Atari 2600 and my son is 4. Both can play Wii games. Hopefully someone at MS / Sony noticed this for the next generation of control systems.

Sorry to say it, but fuck those people.  They aren't gamers and have no real desire to be.  Just because a significant portion of the population is intimidated by a game pad or mouse/keyboard isn't my problem.  Let 'em hang out in the Nintendo ghetto.  I'm quite happy to be an elitist in this regard if it means my games aren't brought down to a level where a retarded chimp can play 'em.

Enjoy playing with yourself then. Games have evolved a long way from titles that were hard just due to shoddy collision detection, bad level layout, limited deaths (that came from arcades anyway, who wanted people to pump more money into the box) and iffy controls. If you don't want to play retarded chimp games, fine, then don't. But don't be surprised when your play tastes consigned to the dustbin of history because hindsight shows that that the "fun" you wanted was just badly designed.

And it isn't the difficulty of the game that is the issue at all. It is the ease of the control scheme to pick up, even if you've never played a console before in your life. So Nintendo has down the "easy to learn" thing down pat. They also released the console at a price level that is known to be the consumer sweet spot so that they flew off the shelves.

As for "simplified" games, when I started playing, there was one joystick and one button. I've lived through simple control schemes to this point, where there are two joysticks and 10 buttons (rough count) that are a huge barrier to even getting people to play because they don't know where to start. So let's not talk about "simple" without forgetting where we came from.

[NiX]

Mmmmm, complexity!

[Velorath]

The big difference with the Wii is that anyone can play it - my wife hasn't touched a console since the Atari 2600 and my son is 4. Both can play Wii games. Hopefully someone at MS / Sony noticed this for the next generation of control systems.

Sorry to say it, but fuck those people.  They aren't gamers and have no real desire to be.  Just because a significant portion of the population is intimidated by a game pad or mouse/keyboard isn't my problem.  Let 'em hang out in the Nintendo ghetto.  I'm quite happy to be an elitist in this regard if it means my games aren't brought down to a level where a retarded chimp can play 'em.

The 4 year old son might very well have a desire to be a gamer, and there are a lot of parents who grew up with games now who buy a Wii to get their kids into games.

I'm going to go off on a spree here that may sound insane because it partly is. The Wii will not prepare children for complex games and as a result, future games will be simplified to meet the audience of useless, stupid teenagers. We're already seeing it with the PlayStation era gamers, though not as much as it would be with the Wii. Our generation was cut on the Atari, Nintendo, and SNES. Systems with needlessly complex gameplay in some cases, horrible control, and a host of things that made us more tolerant to pain. There's no doubt in my mind that games are getting easier these days (sure, ok, perhaps I'm in the tiny tiny demographic who's reaction skills are increasing - but I claim that more on the fact I still spend more time with twitch than say... WoW), and things are only going to get worse. In short, yea, parents are buying Wiis for their kids as a gateway drug but we can only hope they ween off that right quick. My suggestion? Every kid be forced to play Mega Man 9 to completion, on one credit. If I could do it at eight with Mega Man 2, these little runts can do it with 9.

I don't really find anything about the gameplay in the Atari, Nintendo, or SNES era to be needlessly complex.  The only thing that really made games harder back then is that most games didn't have ability to be saved.  If you play any game that has an actual ending to it, on an emulator that allows you to save, you'll probably be able to beat it in around the same time or sooner than most games made today.  It doesn't make them more complex in the same way that XP loss on death in early MMO's didn't make them more complex than modern day MMO's.  They just excessively punished you when you fucked up.

[Triforcer]

I trust the irony between what Schild/Big Gulp etc. is complaining is lacking in singleplayer games and what they hate in MMOs isn't lost on anyone.  Accordingly to your logic, you should love Vanguard and UO. 

[Jain Zar]

An install base of 200M means jack shit if the attach rate for anything that's not a ninty title is god awful. You're not seeing that AAA stuff because it's not worth the dev time.

You're not seeing AAA stuff becuase the dev's think they are too "good" for making games on the system, or they just aren't smart enough to figure out how to use waggle for anything but gimmicks and remapping traditional controls.

Wii haters don't listen to this one though.  If it doesn't have bloom and 1080p brown and greyness it simply cannot make fun games.  Despite you know, the 3 decades plus where people happily didn't need endless piles of this shit.

And as to the whole "Consoles don't have turn based strategy games" thing?

What about FF Tactics?
Disgaea 1-3?
Half of what Atlus fucking releases on a quarterly basis?

Apparently there is enough of a fucking market base for it.  Sure they won't sell better than generic fucking FPS or Sports game number x bazillion, but there are more braindead mongoloids who only care if a game is pretty and has exploding heads with anime levels of blood PSI spurting out of the neck stump and games they can pop some collars and drink a Natty Ice while playing.

And if we add in portable consoles (which I think there are tons of studies saying they are generally played at home more than on the go anyhow) there are even more.

Hell, unlike PC TBS games I can actually go to Best Buy, Gamesuck, Wal Mart, or Target and pick them up without having to be aware of Shrapnel, Matrix, or Battlefront existing and hoping their game won't be a bug infested piece of former Soviet Bloc made shitware.

[ezrast]

Did you just prove a point by declaring that Mega Man 2 is just like Vanguard?

You're seriously, for real, trying to say that Mega Man 2 punishes the player for screwing up, and Vanguard also punishes the player for screwing up, and so they both present a comparable challenge for Schild?

Really?

Back on the subject of hardware, I'd like to remind everyone that the Wii controller, uh, isn't that good. Actually, scratch that: the Wiimote blows, hard. The layout is terrible: + and - are inaccessible, and B is prone to accidental presses when held horizontally. More to the point, Trying to use the Wiimote as a pointer is consistently frustrating for me - get too close or too far from the "sensor bar" (you know, the one that contains no sensors) and it stops working; otherwise the cursor is jittery and prone to jumping off the screen. The motion sensing is also pretty inaccurate.

So maybe the reason game devs aren't making good games for the system has something to do with the difficulty in dealing with the controller hardware. It seems to me that the more extensively a game uses the Wiimote, the bigger an impact the screwy controller is going to have, and the Wiimote may simply lack the capacity to support input mechanisms more subtle than what's demanded of it in Wii Sports. I mean, for Pete's sake, I can't even punch in the same place consistently in Wii Boxing.

The Wii is first generation hardware. The N64 controller was awesome when it came out, but look at it now and the design is just terrible (three handles? Seriously?). But it led pretty directly to the Dual Shock, whose design is still pretty standard today. Same thing will happen here - Sony and MS are going to take Nintendo's ideas, improve the engineering, and make them work well. That's when we'll start seeing really good games that make use of motion sensing controls. Then Nintendo will falter for a generation as they get soundly beaten at their own game, decide they need new innovative features in order to compete, and the cycle will repeat.

[Fabricated]

An install base of 200M means jack shit if the attach rate for anything that's not a ninty title is god awful. You're not seeing that AAA stuff because it's not worth the dev time.

The attach rate on the Wii has been equal to or marginally higher than the PS3's. Try again.

You're not seeing AAA stuff becuase the dev's think they are too "good" for making games on the system, or they just aren't smart enough to figure out how to use waggle for anything but gimmicks and remapping traditional controls.

Yeah the devs are snobs like us and don't want to dirty their hands making casual games for a kid system

[Sheepherder]

I trust the irony between what Schild/Big Gulp etc. is complaining is lacking in singleplayer games and what they hate in MMOs isn't lost on anyone.  Accordingly to your logic, you should love Vanguard and UO. 

You're missing a subtle difference: side-scrollers cockblock you when you fail repeatedly at something (usually) challenging.  MMO's cockpunch you when you or someone in your vicinity fuck up something easy and are constantly cockblocking you the rest of the time.

[Azazel]

Well, he said games that he "must have". I'm sure the "must own" lists would vary per individual. For example, mine don't and will never include a Halo title or any console FPS. 

[Sky]

It doesn't matter if it's an orange or a basket of bananas, the point still stands that due to it's position in the market, it's mere existance is not only holding back development of decent shit, but it's changed the way the gaming market is perceived (for the worse) imo.

You're starting to sound like a pc gamer now! 

[Rasix]

It's not a binary decision. Heh.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I specifically don't play the wii because of the titles available, and not so much because of the controls etc. I like the idea of the wii-mote and would love to see it implemented well. But the truth is devs are way too lazy to do that because they can make shit and till sell regardless. When controls are well implemented, they are confusing and too physical, then the same fools go play drums on RB2... A good example is Hajime No Ippo for the Wii. The game actually boxed pretty well and the controls were pretty deep. It could not have been done anywhere else. The game got hammered for it's controls. I think that the Wii has the potential to really add a lot to gaming and how we play games, but it wont be realized because of the potential to make money as opposed to making inovative and well implemented game play. It is possible but not bloody likely.

Also, to chime in on the control thing, I agree with schild. The wii library leaning so far to simplistic game play and control will make for a generation of gamers with an inability to play games at a higher level. (see castlevania wii) I already see this online when I play fighting games. People raised on games that required more from the player in the way of input do better, Super Street Fighter HD Remix has pulled so many casual players out and I swear that 80% - 90% of the people you play are fucking helpless punching bags, not because they don't understand high level fighting game concepts, but because they can't count on themselves being able to execute simple inputs in a timely manner. We are not talking about 1 frame reversal shoryukens, we are talking standing anti-air roundhouse. It is borderline retarded. 

[fuser]

I have had a Wii for two years now and I'm regretting purchasing it. Last time I had it on about a year ago to play Wii sports with the family. I have only been using it to play VC games towards the end as there was nothing released I had interest in playing.

Honestly I see no improvement in it over the GC hardware wise and the wiimote is accessible to all but useless compared to the controls provided by a wavebird. Considering all games are now designed for the wiimote, we're fscked unless playing older GC games. The "online" features are terrible, honestly whoever came up with the game codes had serious cockblock issues.

My DS is getting heavy usage, KORG DS-10 of all things.

[Merusk]

You guys talking about "playing games at a higher level" are amusing to no end.  It reminds me that I'm not quite as insane and far gone as I sometimes think.

Our WII gets plenty of play time, while I know either the PS3 or the 360 would be sitting on its ass gathering dust right now as a nice $500 paperweight, much like my brother's does.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

You guys talking about "playing games at a higher level" are amusing to no end.  It reminds me that I'm not quite as insane and far gone as I sometimes think.

Our WII gets plenty of play time, while I know either the PS3 or the 360 would be sitting on its ass gathering dust right now as a nice $500 paperweight, much like my brother's does.

Yeah, I can see how some people think that it is a bit much, but fighting games and puzzle games are the only games I really try to learn about and play a bit more. Oddly enough I don't play them as often but when I play, knowing what I am doing as opposed to just pressing buttons really makes the games enjoyable. I guess it is like playing chess or any other game of skill. I really like chess a lot as well hahah. If you learn about one fighting game, and learn about all the specifics and what-not, other fighting games are much easier to learn about and the time frame from getting from novice to advanced is quite short. It is the higher level concepts that may take a few weeks to really get a hold of. It is not nearly as involved as many people seem to think.

[schild]

You guys talking about "playing games at a higher level" are amusing to no end.  It reminds me that I'm not quite as insane and far gone as I sometimes think.

Our WII gets plenty of play time, while I know either the PS3 or the 360 would be sitting on its ass gathering dust right now as a nice $500 paperweight, much like my brother's does.

Are you one of the people still playing WoW? I'm just asking because a lot of the people who rag on me for ragging on the Wii for creating hilariously bad gamers are slowly becoming useless at other games due to spending too much time in a game that's basically always on cruise control. Just wondering.

[Velorath]

Do we really want to start whipping it out and trying to see who the "hardcore" gamers here are?

[schild]

Do we really want to start whipping it out and trying to see who the "hardcore" gamers here are?

No, I just don't want people that raid in WoW to be arguing for or against the Wii because it's INSANE to even take an angle when you're grinding away at a 4 year old game.

[Warskull]

Zack and Wiki would've gotten just as much praise as a downloadable for the XBL or PSN. Saying otherwise is as stupid as saying Braid would've gotten more praise for being on the Wii.

Zack and Wiki would have been pointless to make on another console.  A huge part of the game is using the Wii mote to control the objects.  A lot of the fun comes from experimenting on how to use the objects and part of that experiment is figuring out how to control the objects.  You cut out a large and interesting part of the game when you cut out the motion controls, the entire game was built around them.

The reason the Wii is selling so hot is because it has new ideas.  The reason it doesn't have a lot of good third party games is because a lot of developers are stuck in the "make the graphics a bit better, add formulaic item X, Y, and Z, then release" mentality.  Nintendo is offering gamers something new and interesting.  Control can open doors in gaming just as much as graphics.

You also have to remember that there are going to be a ton of bad games on whatever system exists, just like there are a ton of bad movies, and lots of other bad examples of any media format.  The question isn't "does this system have bad games?", if you used that metric the NES, SNES, PS1, PS2, and whatever other system you remember fondly would fall into the bad system category.  The question is "do the good games on this system make it worth it?"

Ultimately, introducing new demographics to games and introducing new ways to interact with games is a good thing.  You could argue that the analog stick and rumble pack were gimmicks, but look how they have been worked in everywhere.