Patches 1.1a-d Have Arrived

[trias_e]

Zone != Instance.

Maybe they do end up instancing it, but instancing implies multiple identical zones.  MBJ does not seem to be saying this is their plan.

[Lantyssa]

It's semantics at this point given they are isolating it and their design supports spawning multiple copies of a zone.  Maybe they haven't set max_instances above 1, but it's so close it's still worth a laugh.

[trias_e]

It's definitely true that if you have population caps in place, whether it's a separate zone or not, the flexibility and variety of open world gameplay is totally wasted and irrelevent, so you might as well instance it so everyone can play.

That said, if they remove population caps but keep the fortresses in separate zones, I think that would be quite different than instancing.  Was Everquest a series of instances? 

[waffel]

Well, once they move the fortresses to a different zone they'll be able to use all of the 53 dead servers and dedicate them to just the fortress zones.

[Lantyssa]

If an area is blocked by an arbitrary delimiter, it's functionally instancing.

Zone only accessible to Party A
Zone only accessible to Raid A
Zone only accessible to First 40 people
Zone only accessible to people with the Item of Access, but otherwise no limits

The first three depend upon some arbitrary selection of people.  No one else can enter.  For all intents and purposes it is a private zone to them, which is what I would define as an instance.

The fourth has a gate mechanism, but otherwise the entire server could pack into it.  I could probably quibble about whether it, too, qualifies, but would let it go with being a "world zone" at that point.  (I wouldn't be arguing about the gate so much as how the game's architecture is designed.  Atlas Park in CoX is a "world zone", yet it is also an instance, even if only one is active.)

It would also behoove them to allow everyone who wants to participate in a Fortress seige to be able to do so in some fashion.  Either their population will fall to the point where it doesn't matter, or they'll need additional copies.  This is the perfect first step towards that.

[IainC]

An instance is not just a zone with entry requirements, it's a dynamically generated zone that can be replicated for different groups of people to experience separately and in parallel. Putting something behind a loading screen does not make it an instance even if there is some arbitrary limitation on entry.

[Lantyssa]

I probably could have added other clarifications to what I said to match what you said, like "Zone only accessible to Party A.  New copy for Party B. Etc."  I'm failing on explaining myself fully, so I'm just going to give up until I'm well enough to catch every little detail someone's going to gripe about.

The game supports instancing and zones.  If it's not able to be instanced, whether they set the limit to 1 or not, I'll eat the box my nyquil came in.

[Kail]

We'll find out what brisk is soon, I suppose. I don't think their definition falls in line with what I said... in what, September? Maybe it was October.

Seems noticeably faster to me.  XP for level 23 is down about 10%, looks like.  Winning a round of Tor Anroc gives me about 6% xp at 23, and about the same at 26.  So it seems a lot flatter, at any rate, about at the rate of late T2, but it's not like "20 to 30 in a few hours" or anything.

[schild]

10% is not enough. Also, 20-30 wasn't the problem.

[Lantyssa]

20-30 was my problem.  10% definately isn't enough of a boost though.  It needed to double, at least.

[schild]

Actually, yea, I agree. Things got hairy from around 23 onwards. That's when I started totally grinding Tor Anroc.

[BitWarrior]

If an area is blocked by an arbitrary delimiter, it's functionally instancing.

Zone only accessible to Party A
Zone only accessible to Raid A
Zone only accessible to First 40 people
Zone only accessible to people with the Item of Access, but otherwise no limits

The first three depend upon some arbitrary selection of people.  No one else can enter.  For all intents and purposes it is a private zone to them, which is what I would define as an instance.

The fourth has a gate mechanism, but otherwise the entire server could pack into it.  I could probably quibble about whether it, too, qualifies, but would let it go with being a "world zone" at that point.  (I wouldn't be arguing about the gate so much as how the game's architecture is designed.  Atlas Park in CoX is a "world zone", yet it is also an instance, even if only one is active.)

It would also behoove them to allow everyone who wants to participate in a Fortress seige to be able to do so in some fashion.  Either their population will fall to the point where it doesn't matter, or they'll need additional copies.  This is the perfect first step towards that.

You're looking at things through your WoW googles. Instancing a Fortress could simply imply that there is a dedicated server to handle the area. You could perform a handshake to allow any spare server (as they do now have many) (also, assume they're taken offline and held only as fortress servers) to handle the event, character data can simply be transferred (as it is in Guild Wars...all the freaking time). Either that or yes, each server gets its own dedicated transparent instancing server as well.

An instance doesn't mean "raid", it also doesn't mean 40, and it doesn't mean there *has* to be multiple parallel instances - that's just how they've been used thus far.

[Fordel]

Dedicating hardware to a specific zone/area does not make it an instance.

[Bismallah]

I'd still be curious if the game engine can handle 300+ players in the same spot even if it's on a server by itself. I understand the issue is that the server chugs with all those people in the same spot but is that because of all the other interactions taking place on the same server or is this going to end up being game engine related?

I think taking the entire end game fight off the server is very daoc-esque (zone into frontiers) and just might work, but I wonder if the engine is still going to be the main problem. Either way, Mark is going to have to hope and pray that it works because if this all boils down to a game engine problem he's fucked. I hope that if they do move the whole end game onto it's own server they don't have to limit the players by level and what not in the future.

I guess time will tell, but they will probably never meet their expectations for this game. That ship sailed 3 months ago after the first set of folks never subbed past their free month. Once they lost the massive amount of players in those first 3 months, those folks were not quitting because of Forts. They were quitting because of a multitude of issues stacked on top of the end game being complete shit.

[Lantyssa]

You're looking at things through your WoW googles. Instancing a Fortress could simply imply that there is a dedicated server to handle the area. You could perform a handshake to allow any spare server (as they do now have many) (also, assume they're taken offline and held only as fortress servers) to handle the event, character data can simply be transferred (as it is in Guild Wars...all the freaking time). Either that or yes, each server gets its own dedicated transparent instancing server as well.

An instance doesn't mean "raid", it also doesn't mean 40, and it doesn't mean there *has* to be multiple parallel instances - that's just how they've been used thus far.

Mental Note:  Don't post when extremely sick.  Now I've had this post dissected from two different directions to mean something else entirely.

Iain's correction/clarification was what I was trying to say, more or less.  Instancing means the area can be copied.  It can be on a new server, or the same one.  Where it's hosted doesn't matter.  There can be many copies allowed, or only one (which I've said like three times now).

And I don't have WoW goggles.  I've played maybe four or five months of WoW and that was a year and a half ago at least.  I've put more time into a ton of other games.  You also missed my example using parties and 40 individuals, as well as mentions to CoX which uses instancing similar to GW.  Raids were a single example.  I know exactly how instancing works, I'm simply failing to explain why the new WAR fortress zone more than likely is instancable, and somehow dragging us on a tangent about what instancing is, when I was trying to answer the question posed about where the Fortress raids could be instanced.

[eldaec]

Instance = multiple copies of the same zone created on demand so that multiple raids can play the same content without tripping over each other.

Zone = not that.


This is moving a zone border and only allowing X people into that zone. It is no more instancing than separated pve realms were instancing in daoc.

It is still a classic example of epic fail.

[trias_e]

If they zone it, fix the performance issues, and make it fun, then it would be fixing the epic fail that they began with however.

If.   

[Bismallah]

If they zone it, fix the performance issues, and make it fun, then it would be fixing the epic fail that they began with however.

If.   

Agreed, but then they have to worry about the other umpteen things that are wrong. However, this would fix that whole "end game is complete shit" somewhat... maybe...

[waffel]

Well, they still have the issue of contribution being fucked up, raiding cities being fucked up, armor sets being a dumbfuck idea, class balance, scenarios being a shit idea, realm rewards, etc. etc. etc.

[Threash]

If this isnt a sign of how fucked up this game is then i don't know what to tell you.  Someone already hit rr80, they posted a picture of their tok and they have more monster kills than rvr kills.  Linkage: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232607

[Bismallah]

Epic RvR!!

[Zzulo]

He's got more monster kills because he gained ranks by trading BO's and forts with the enemy, rather than you know, fighting anyone.

[waffel]

RR80 tome unlock title should be 'the Poopsocker'

and it should be forced on.

[Nebu]

59  days played in a game that has been out 117 days.  Got rr80 by pve in a game supposed to be pvp centric. 

If this isn't a wake-up call to the Mythic development team, then I don't know what else will do it. 

EDIT: some of the WHA posters frighten me.  I guess the concept of the catass is destined to live on forever.  They sure seem to love this guy's "achievements" over there.

[pxib]

Q: How did you achieve 80 so "fast".
A: Let me start by saying it sure didn't feel fast!

That's pretty much my WAR experience.

[rk47]

59  days played in a game that has been out 117 days.  Got rr80 by pve in a game supposed to be pvp centric. 

If this isn't a wake-up call to the Mythic development team, then I don't know what else will do it. 

EDIT: some of the WHA posters frighten me.  I guess the concept of the catass is destined to live on forever.  They sure seem to love this guy's "achievements" over there.

59  days played in a game that has been out 117 days

Yep, he played too much. honestly. He grinded for it. In my experience, an average person would log only 2-3 hours a day followed with 4-6 on weekends. If they play too hard, they hit a burnout stage where they need to stay logged off for a few days to keep things 'fresh' but obviously this guy is in the 'hardcore' category. 

[schild]

This guy is beyond hardcore.

[Tannhauser]

We're gonna need a new title past hardcore.  Also I feel sorry for this guy.  He can't have a job or a girlfriend or any other social life.  He has dedicated 59 super-hardcore days to a shitty game. 

At least he has the honor of being rr80 first with all the validation that brings.

[Bismallah]

So my math may be a little fuzzy but isn't that about 13 hours every day for 117 days online? That's more then a full time job. Leaving him 11 hours of free time every day, throw in 6-8 hours for sleep... whew.

[Shatter]

We're gonna need a new title past hardcore. 

Thats easy

Title:  Chinese

[Nebu]

Yep, he played too much. honestly. He grinded for it.

I could care less how much someone plays.  It's their time.  What I am dumbfounded by that a player could achieve the highest pvp rank by doing pve.  If you want players to enjoy a robust pve experience, make one.  Don't market a game as being pvp-centric and then encourage your players to grind pve. 

This reminds me of the addition of rp missions in DAoC with NF.  At least back then they were implemented a bit more thoughtfully. 

[Threash]

To be honest i seriously doubt his claims that he did it alone.

[Nebu]

To be honest i seriously doubt his claims that he did it alone.

I'd be happy to learn that he did it alone.  That would at least demonstrate that the game was somewhat solo friendly. 

I'm more interested by the fact that he got the rank killing more mobs than players.  It's a sign that keep swapping is far easier than the developers had previously thought.  It also shows that players are far more interested in grinding to a goal than they are enjoying the mechanics of WAR.  Far less of a surprise given the history of MMO's. 

[Special J]

I think he means 'alone' as in the only person who logged into the account. 

And yes, while he's a poopsocker of the highest order, I find it difficult to believe it was 100% one person.

[Threash]

To be honest i seriously doubt his claims that he did it alone.

I'd be happy to learn that he did it alone.  That would at least demonstrate that the game was somewhat solo friendly. 

I'm more interested by the fact that he got the rank killing more mobs than players.  It's a sign that keep swapping is far easier than the developers had previously thought.  It also shows that players are far more interested in grinding to a goal than they are enjoying the mechanics of WAR.  Far less of a surprise given the history of MMO's. 

By alone i meant without a crew playing the same character around the clock, not by himself in the actual game world.  You could solo queue for scenariors but it wouldn't work very effectively in rvr, you need at least a few people to even take a BO.  Swapping is definitely far easier for gaining rank than anything else, my guild had half a warband last night looking for a fight and we got lucky and found an equal number of destro in a different zone while the zerg tried to cap dragonwake, it was about 30 mins of constant back and forth fighting and my rr bar barely moved.  After about 5 mins every kill starts giving you half what it did before and by the end you are getting nothing at all.