Game Update 1.0.4b

[Sophismata]

I was just going to bring that up, actually.

The adjustment to Mythic's stupid and completely arbitrary Wards system has fucked up their end-game instances further, placed a massive block on any progression towards their mythical end game content and royally pissed off those few loyalists who were prepared to grind instances in order to eventually capture cities.

It was short, it was sweet, but I probably should have left as soon as the Herald mentioned Wards in the first place...

Coincidentally, that was also the time this forum was moved to the graveyard.

[Arthur_Parker]

In addition to what I said earlier, both times I went to Bastion Stair it was because I actually had my arm twisted to go.  Gold plated invites each time due to the lack of our guys logging in.

[Sophismata]

Oh, also, White Lions?

Their pets can't wear set items.

[Bismallah]

Spent a couple of hours in Bastion Stair last night and, well, it wasn't much fun.  I'm not that interested in armour loot, so no clue what drops what, but I didn't see anyone get anything of any use to them, so if the intent is to make me constantly grind Bastion Stair (when I'm already bored of it after two visits), then 

I'd like to point something out in line with this statement, I have played MMOs for the better part of 13 years. I have never played an MMO where I didn't give a hoot about gear drops for spending time in a dungeon until WAR. I went to Bastion last nite for the sole purpose of helping other level 31-34s get some good blue drops for their level. I got a purple helm that was level 35 and was WORSE then a world drop that I already had on of comparable level, no resists, just stats and the stats werent even that good... seriously? Then again look at the set pieces, their stats SUCK. Even in WoW folks would say "hey want to do XXX" I would look through the atlas or something and say "oh yeah, a good shoulder piece drops there, i'm down". On WAR I dont even check, I just say hey any lowbies want to go so we can get you guys some blues that might actually be good for you? Because at 38 all this crap is shit. Even the Elite influence reward, another purple, is 35-36? We wiped hard core on the boss at the end of Stage 3 PQ, wasnt even a fight... we cleared the whole thing and then blamo everyone dead.

The whole ward set gear crap is mind boggling to me to have in a game like WAR. I could see something like that in a game like WoW, but in WAR?? What the hell were they thinking?

[dd0029]

This ward thing is straight out of EQ.  I never did it, but I recall reading about the, I think, Bane weapons you needed for the bosses - or maybe it was just one boss? - in the third expansion.  Apparently the ward deal is 20% of normal damage for each ward, so you need all 5 wards to do your normal damage, not some special tricked out WTF stuff, just what you can do out blowing up rats and snakes in the world.  Not even the screwed up overtuned Burning Crusade launch bosses needed grinding like this.  All that needed was mindnumbing potion making and if you wanted to, you could throw money at that to get that done.  It did not need the time investment.

I had thought that the idea behind a PvP game was that the people on the other end made for the challenge.

[Arthur_Parker]

I think it's old age, I just can't get all outraged by this stuff anymore, instead I just end up amused.

Old Mark Jacobs quote

Also, remember that if we make the items too rare or difficult to get, that the more casual players will suffer for it and we don't want to do that, ever.

Linky

So after 6 manning keeps all day yesterday, our BW ended with 4/5 anni, our White Lion with 5/5, and myself and our other ironbreaker both already had 4/5 mix of Sentinel/Anni/Bloodlord. Our healers were able to get to 3/5 and 4/5 as well.

We decided to hit Sigmar's Crypt last night cause our lockout came up, and I have to say we were cruising thru it. Hit the reaper boss in under 20 minutes things were going great.. until our Bright Wizard CTD when the Reaper was at 4%. We didnt even know he crashed until the Reaper was dead so he logs back in..and is unable to enter the zone because the 5 of us are saved to the reaper boss while his lockout is only saved to the spider boss.

Unless we can get a CSR to actually help us out (haha) were screwed and just have to wait another 3 days for our lockout to end. Just another reason why the entire ward/lockout system is flawed beyond belief.

Just posting this for a summary.  I believe the overall PVE design calls for making players grind for a lucky random drop while hoping for a lucky loot roll on sometimes bugged boss mobs.  All so they can use their new badly itemised gear to move onto the next higher level dungeon to upgrade to the next tier of badly itemised equipment, again, via lucky drops while hoping for lucky dice rolls.  I like the simplicity and effectiveness of the decision to add lockouts on top of that, can't have people advancing too quickly through your pointless series of cockblocks now can we?

I'm also impressed by the 3 extra gold bags for a keep siege.  Sure it's going to mean nobody attacks a defended keep but, hey, the whole idea is to encourage Open RVR and get people out of scenarios right?  It's just a pity that the one piece of not too badly itemised PVP ward gear I have, has a realm rank requirement of level 45, think I'm currently 38/30 or so.  I've been thinking how best I can take advantage of this new focus on ORVR over scenarios, the obvious conclusion is to raise my realm rank as fast as possible, which obviously means I should grind scenarios.  By grind scenarios, I obviously mean Serpents Passage as making different scenarios pop is clearly really, really difficult.

[Lakov_Sanite]

You know the more I think about it I believe it's not just about the cockblock of the wards. all games have those time sinks, wow is certainly not any better but the wards make the players feel powerless. Instead of saying "you need X key to get into the king room" they are saying "You aren't good enough to kill him, you need Y" Wards lower your overall power, it's the game forcing you into a weaker state for the purpose of story or whatever and takes control away from the player.

[Modern Angel]

It's not about cockblocks. It's about how well disguised as fun the cockblocks are. By that metric, WAR fails and fails big time. It's got more hardcore PvE and gear grinding than WoW. Grats, assholes.

[UnSub]

What the hell were they thinking?

This is the great question surrounding WAR. Every new problem as players hit T4 reveal how flawed the beta testing of systems was, every new patch seems to contain a note that indicates whatever issues WAR might be having, Mythic will go in completely the wrong direction to fix it. It comes down (imo) to Mythic saying, "If we design this system this way, then players will use it in exactly the way we think they will" and then being surprised when players go in a different direction (see: RvR vs scenarios).

Yes, every plan shows its flaws when it meets the enemy, but WAR has been pretty amateur hour in some design decisions and then fail to recognise where the problem is. Remember RvR being the focus of WAR? How that was going to be the core game? WAR is an absolute failure in that area. The current mechanics do nothing to encourage RvR and actually encourages avoidance of battles. The 'end game' of RvR is PvE-oriented with a lot of PvE loot you can only get from a grind cascade.

Man, I'd love to see the design documents for WAR just to know what the hell was being thought during those design meetings. Still waiting for WAR's player numbers too.

[dd0029]

I was actually mildly pleased with the scenario change last night.  My T2 alt was actually getting more than Mourkain.  Granted it does require that people que all.  Not queing all defeats the system.  I will admit that I worked to break the new plan after the second 15 minute Phoenix Gate ending 200-100 and only qued for Stonetroll and Mourkain.  And even Stonetroll only ever really ended at a 500 point game once or twice.  But the fighting there can be more entertaining so I dealt with it.

[Jherad]

I'm trying to picture the internal roundtable meeting(s) that led to the current ward system. I just can't imagine that without hearing 'Entrance of the gladiators' being played reeeally loudly.

Seriously though, it is easy to criticise on the receiving end, but someone must have thought that this would be a good idea, and I'm struggling on their thought process.

Edit: I mean, I've not heard *anyone* try and defend it. Nobody. At all. Anywhere. Am I just going blind?

[khaine]

What the hell were they thinking?

This is the great question surrounding WAR. Every new problem as players hit T4 reveal how flawed the beta testing of systems was, every new patch seems to contain a note that indicates whatever issues WAR might be having, Mythic will go in completely the wrong direction to fix it. It comes down (imo) to Mythic saying, "If we design this system this way, then players will use it in exactly the way we think they will" and then being surprised when players go in a different direction (see: RvR vs scenarios).

Yes, every plan shows its flaws when it meets the enemy, but WAR has been pretty amateur hour in some design decisions and then fail to recognise where the problem is. Remember RvR being the focus of WAR? How that was going to be the core game? WAR is an absolute failure in that area. The current mechanics do nothing to encourage RvR and actually encourages avoidance of battles. The 'end game' of RvR is PvE-oriented with a lot of PvE loot you can only get from a grind cascade.

Man, I'd love to see the design documents for WAR just to know what the hell was being thought during those design meetings. Still waiting for WAR's player numbers too.

Considering keeps weren't even in as of the Oct shutdown of beta last year nor even confirmed , and huge class changes immediately before launch along with upping the leveling curve at the same time ,

I'd say it's not too much of a stretch to say they didn't even have design documents , more like someone came up with a memo or idea that morning and they just decide to throw it in there ,

After all , if you remarked on something in beta that they just put in and found stupid (if they werent asking for remarks on it), you had your thread locked for "feedback" by Missy ,

I think that alone sums up how WAR has gotten to it's current state , that the official reps  on the beta forums most frequent thing to post was

"Locked for Feedback"

[rk47]

In addition to what I said earlier, both times I went to Bastion Stair it was because I actually had my arm twisted to go.  Gold plated invites each time due to the lack of our guys logging in.

Honestly? I couldn't find anything interesting to do, RVR is turning into a mindless gold bag farming. For 6 hours the zerg warband just traded keeps for gold bags. There are no incentive to defend at all now.  So faced with grinding up RR or looking at some PVE content. Yeah....I still don't want to go through either one, but the prepaid sub card goes through december. Fuck me.

[Arthur_Parker]

It's not about cockblocks. It's about how well disguised as fun the cockblocks are. By that metric, WAR fails and fails big time. It's got more hardcore PvE and gear grinding than WoW. Grats, assholes.

It doesn't matter how "fun" a PVE cockblock is, when the game is advertised as all about WAR, then you shouldn't force people to PVE.  The PVE could be ten times better than WoW but it's still not pvp, Capturing an undefended fort, which they all just became, is a purely PVE experience.

[dd0029]

So, if Keeps are a late addition, what were they planning to do in those big lakes?  Up through T3, other than the camp guards I have only seen like 6 token mobs.  Its not like DAoC where you could actually play the game out in the rvr areas and get better XP and unique drops.  The more I think about it, the less I understand this Lake concept thing.  They are really small compared to the rest of the game.  They are completely empty.  Were they just planning to have some sort of random MMO deathmatch thing?

[Modern Angel]

It's not about cockblocks. It's about how well disguised as fun the cockblocks are. By that metric, WAR fails and fails big time. It's got more hardcore PvE and gear grinding than WoW. Grats, assholes.

It doesn't matter how "fun" a PVE cockblock is, when the game is advertised as all about WAR, then you shouldn't force people to PVE.  The PVE could be ten times better than WoW but it's still not pvp, Capturing an undefended fort, which they all just became, is a purely PVE experience.

I completely agree. But I'm saying that even by the metric of a standard, PvE focused MMO it fails hugely. HUGELY. For all of the stuff which was PvP evolved but with some questionable design decisions, their focus on PvE isn't even 2004 PvE. It's fucking EQ 2000 PvE.

Complete and total fucking lunacy.

[khaine]

So, if Keeps are a late addition, what were they planning to do in those big lakes?  Up through T3, other than the camp guards I have only seen like 6 token mobs.  Its not like DAoC where you could actually play the game out in the rvr areas and get better XP and unique drops.  The more I think about it, the less I understand this Lake concept thing.  They are really small compared to the rest of the game.  They are completely empty.  Were they just planning to have some sort of random MMO deathmatch thing?

Up until then the objective points were the focus points , no keeps , none - several on the beta boards I remember would constantly point out that keeps/sieges were desperately needed , they (Mythic)even resisted theat idea at first and seemed confident in the fact that the objective points were good enough

On a side note I notice on the VN boards to others MJ has completely ducked all ?'s and threads about the armor grind they have introduced - he will answer a question about healer achievement unlocks in the Tomb , but that 12 page thread about 99% of the people thinking the armor grind is a terrible idea - nadda

And I think "Locked for feedback" should be the new TM for Mythic ,

[Lakov_Sanite]

It doesn't matter how often mythic wants to say WAR is a pvp game, it's not. I'm sorry to those who got fooled but I can't say I didn't see it coming. If your endgame is pve city raiding? yeah, you aren't a pvp game.

[Modern Angel]

Which is why I ducked out three weeks in. It was a good three weeks but fuck it. I'm more irritated by this than most MMOs because it really was on the cusp... only to ONCE AGAIN be a game which decides to take Blizzard head on (PvE) without the tools, knowledge and money to actually do it right. So, fuck. WoW it is. Once someone stops trying to outpve them when they can't even hire people who can script a simple escort quest, call me.

Someone will get it someday.

[Bismallah]

It doesn't matter how often mythic wants to say WAR is a pvp game, it's not. I'm sorry to those who got fooled but I can't say I didn't see it coming. If your endgame is pve city raiding? yeah, you aren't a pvp game.

Spot on, and for people to bash the living fuck out of WoW in the process is just baffling. I understand folks dont like WoW, but check out gnomeworks post here: http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109404469/p6/?135

It's kinda lengthy, but the dude is so on the money.

Edit: It's about 6 posts down on that 6th page

[Arthur_Parker]

On a side note I notice on the VN boards to others MJ has completely ducked all ?'s and threads about the armor grind they have introduced - he will answer a question about healer achievement unlocks in the Tomb , but that 12 page thread about 99% of the people thinking the armor grind is a terrible idea - nadda

Yeah there wasn't a single comment about the armour sets before, then we get this patch that reinforces the absolute must have nature of the wards, still not a single comment.  The only serious explanation I can come up with is that they must think they need this PVE grind to retain subscriptions, but that's old EQ thinking.  They really should have just played WoW for a few months and then did a PVP version of WoW with random loot and skill based characters based on WHFRP instead of levels.

I'm expecting full scale panic to start by January at the latest, more server merges, maybe EA drastically cutting staff to cut further losses.  Wonder if MJ has ever considered space travel.

[Mrbloodworth]

It doesn't matter how often mythic wants to say WAR is a pvp game, it's not. I'm sorry to those who got fooled but I can't say I didn't see it coming. If your endgame is pve city raiding? yeah, you aren't a pvp game.

Maybe, but i PvP every time i log in, and no not scenarios. You know what makes this the best PvP (RPG) game out there right now? The class balance, yes, i said it. This game is leaps and bounds better in regards to PvP balance than say, Wow, where the levels and gear divide are so large, PvP is all but pointless in the open world. I have enjoyed the living crap out of the PvP game play in this title, to the point that i really do not care if there is PvE mixed in with my PvP endgame.

To say this isn't a PvP game is a joke. Also, to add, if your not on an Open RvR severs, your missing out (IMO).

This post in no way shape or form means i think the game is perfect, but dam if it doesn't have some good PvP action. If you dig the PvP in wow, and its huge imbalances in gear...More power to ya, and i leave you with "To each his own".l

[Nebu]

If your playerbase can immediately point out 5 serious flaws in your game design within the first few hours of gameplay, you have a problem. 

We bitch about WAR because we see the potential.  Sadly, every subsequent "fix" to the current issues lead me to believe that the players are seeing things very differently than the designers.  This disconnect leads us to the exact same issues we saw with ToA.  It's unsettling.

[BitWarrior]

This disconnect leads us to the exact same issues we saw with ToA.

I have seen comments regarding ToA in numerous places, but unfortunately was never into DaoC. Would someone kindly either post a response detailing what the hell happened and what ToA was supposed to be that made it so bad, or at the least point me to an article/blog about it? I would love to learn about this.

[Nebu]

I have seen comments regarding ToA in numerous places, but unfortunately was never into DaoC. Would someone kindly either post a response detailing what the hell happened and what ToA was supposed to be that made it so bad, or at the least point me to an article/blog about it? I would love to learn about this.

ToA (Trials of Atlantis) was a DAoC expansion that added a HUGE PvE grind to a successful (for the time) PvP game.  It included master levels (pve), artifacts that required aquisition, farming drops to activate, and leveling (more pve), all resulting in a new arms race. The addition of this lengthy PvE grind lead to a mass exodus of the playerbase.

That help? 

 

[Mrbloodworth]

If your playerbase can immediately point out 5 serious flaws in your game design within the first few hours of gameplay, you have a problem. 

This isn't whats happening however.

[Gurney]

What the hell were they thinking?

This is the great question surrounding WAR. Every new problem as players hit T4 reveal how flawed the beta testing of systems was, every new patch seems to contain a note that indicates whatever issues WAR might be having, Mythic will go in completely the wrong direction to fix it. It comes down (imo) to Mythic saying, "If we design this system this way, then players will use it in exactly the way we think they will" and then being surprised when players go in a different direction (see: RvR vs scenarios).

Yes, every plan shows its flaws when it meets the enemy, but WAR has been pretty amateur hour in some design decisions and then fail to recognise where the problem is. Remember RvR being the focus of WAR? How that was going to be the core game? WAR is an absolute failure in that area. The current mechanics do nothing to encourage RvR and actually encourages avoidance of battles. The 'end game' of RvR is PvE-oriented with a lot of PvE loot you can only get from a grind cascade.

Man, I'd love to see the design documents for WAR just to know what the hell was being thought during those design meetings. Still waiting for WAR's player numbers too.

It still boggles my mind that there Zone Control has at least  3 different mechanics that encourage people to leave the RvR.  And they don't seem to understand that is a bad thing.

It like they think a server has infinite people.

They seem to be designing in some kind of isolated la la land utopia where everything goes off perfectly and there are never problematic cases to handle.

Just read the grab bag and about zone control.  They just keep saying "Push on all fronts".  Well what if we dont' do that smart guy?  Waht if for some reason people push on 2 out of 4 fronts?  Then your design falls on its face and turns into a bowl of mushy crap.

It is eerily close to insanity.

[BitWarrior]

If your playerbase can immediately point out 5 serious flaws in your game design within the first few hours of gameplay, you have a problem. 

This isn't whats happening however.

Yeah, they're pointing out 10.

[Mrbloodworth]

If your playerbase can immediately point out 5 serious flaws in your game design within the first few hours of gameplay, you have a problem. 

This isn't whats happening however.

Yeah, they're pointing out 10.

Whatever, Most of its been "OMGWTF endgame". Other than that mythic has been making some very nice changes and additions addressing many things. In fact it was OMGWTF Endgame that got it dened. The rest has been new users spouting off shit with no examples, or room for discussion, just mater of fact-ly posting VN board style.

/end rant
/back to regular posting happiness and MMO stalking. 

[Bismallah]

"They just keep saying 'Push on all fronts' " And if you just don't have the player base to do it, which is the case with most of the servers right now (and will be after tonite), then WAR zone control/city sieges will truly grind to a halt. Also, this was an issue with the ToA that folks mention. If you just didnt have the players to do all the Master Levels you're sunk. You will run up against all those fantastic ML abilities being used against you while you sit there and go, well fuck... wish we had the players to do the MLs too.

Having 2-3 warbands as your full upper tier 4 population trying to lock down zones across 3 racial zones is going to be impossible. Clusters will come soon...

There will be 4-5 servers that will probably still have a good population and if anyone that wants to keep playing WAR is smart, they will reroll now to those servers and never look back. Although, those servers will be subject to some population loss after tonite as well.

[BitWarrior]

Whatever, Most of its been "OMGWTF endgame". Other than that mythic has been making some very nice changes and additions addressing many things. In fact it was OMGWTF Endgame that got it dened. The rest has been new users spouting off shit with no examples, or room for discussion, just mater of fact-ly posting VN board style.

I would disagree, and to give you a solid example and reason why - most people canceled and/or began complaining long before they ever hit Tier 4. The problems are not with the end game necessarily but with the fundamentals of the game. Faction balance and how it is (or rather, isn't) handled, the process of the "grind" and the debate whether that is entertaining or not, travel times, server population problems creating a lack of enemies/allies, destruction appeal vs order appeal (or lackthereof), RvR lake objectives, rewards and motivations (which exist in all tiers), armor itemization, and on and on. The only "end game" complaint has been how zone control is being currently managed. It's a piece of the pie, absolutely, but its not the whole durn thing.

[Trippy]

It still boggles my mind that there Zone Control has at least  3 different mechanics that encourage people to leave the RvR.  And they don't seem to understand that is a bad thing.

People don't always want to do RvR full-time. Some people like to take a break from that and do other stuff but still contribute to the "war effort", so to speak. For example in PlanetSide I liked to drive around refill the bases' energy supplies when I got tired of zerging or being zerged in the game. The problem with Mythic's design is that the "side stuff" is as or even more important than the zone RvR.

[khaine]

It still boggles my mind that there Zone Control has at least  3 different mechanics that encourage people to leave the RvR.  And they don't seem to understand that is a bad thing.

People don't always want to do RvR full-time. Some people like to take a break from that and do other stuff but still contribute to the "war effort", so to speak. For example in PlanetSide I liked to drive around refill the bases' energy supplies when I got tired of zerging or being zerged in the game. The problem with Mythic's design is that the "side stuff" is as or even more important than the zone RvR.

I'm convinced that no single person at Mythic is 100% sure of what contributes to everything in RvR progression  and the weight on each parts importance

And that maybe that's intentional , they dont want it easily understood or known , by anyone including themselves , because at least there is still a way to avoid the issue somewhat

If the actual full formula was laid out in the open the "wtf" factor would be x1000

[Nebu]

I'm convinced that no single person at Mythic is 100% sure of what contributes to everything in RvR progression  and the weight on each parts importance

And that maybe that's intentional , they dont want it easily understood or known , by anyone including themselves , because at least there is still a way to avoid the issue somewhat

If the actual full formula was laid out in the open the "wtf" factor would be x1000

"Intentional ignorance" is no way to run a business.  EVER. 

[Lantyssa]

Whatever, Most of its been "OMGWTF endgame". Other than that mythic has been making some very nice changes and additions addressing many things. In fact it was OMGWTF Endgame that got it dened. The rest has been new users spouting off shit with no examples, or room for discussion, just mater of fact-ly posting VN board style.

/end rant
/back to regular posting happiness and MMO stalking. 

You're right.  The endgame doesn't matter.  I'm level 24, but have done three-fifths of my realm's content and surrounded by level 29 mobs to progress, I'm pretty much dead in the water.  I won't make the endgame, so there's no point in me bitching about it.

I could go to another realm, but I was hoping to do those with other characters.  I'm not invested in those story lines having not played them through T1 and T2, so it'll be just grind.  If I want to grind, there are better options out there.  So yeah.  I've tried, but I think I'm hitting the cancel button today.  There's not much point when I've put in an hour over the course of the last two weeks.