Give them enough rope ...

[UnSub]

... and they will hang themselves.

I was going through a bunch of info about WAR and ran into quotes from Jacobs time and time again that made me wonder if Mythic is playing a completely different build to the one they launched.

Quotes like this:

With Jacobs having played the game and having read fan postings on both the “Warhammer” and “Age of Conan” forums, he thought that Funcom should have delayed the game. “I think that the greatest mistake that they made was not listening and not learning from what had gone before,” Jacobs said, referring to the launch issues of Funcom’s “Anarchy Online” in 2001. “When they looked at ['Age of Conan'] when they were ready to launch, I can’t imagine how they didn’t see the issues that other people saw. According to their annual reports, they had plenty of money. They should’ve looked at it and said, ‘We need to delay this game.’ There are probably reasons I’m not aware of… but I think that’s their biggest sin.”

Remember, Jacobs never insults other MMOs, he just slaps them around with backhanded compliments and observations.

He added, “If we don’t succeed with EA behind us, the ‘Warhammer’ IP behind us, with one of the most experienced teams in the industry, that’s not going to be good for the industry. We need to show the world that it’s not just Blizzard who can make a great game, and that the audience is absolutely willing to try new things and to play a game other than ‘WoW.’”

WAR and AoC has shown the MMO industry that players are completely likely to leave WoW to try something else. Then they go back to WoW because that is where they have fun. (Personally, I'm back playing CoH/V - it is less grindy than WAR and I don't have to run around hills because I can jump over them).

And from here:

Our number-one focus is RvR, but we have spent so much time and resources on PvE [Player vs. Environment]. We’ve put so many things in there, that if you’re a casual player you should come here. One of the things that certain games have done — and we won’t mention names — is that they’re trying to go back to an old school, we-want-people-to-work-harder-to-level [style of gameplay] and make it less fun.

O RLY?

Look at our PvE, our Public Quests, the Tome of Knowledge, open grouping, our crafting system — you’ll get all these things that are different from “WoW” and other games. That’s why you come.

Of all these things, the ToK is the only one that works well (although some of the unlocks are impossibly hard for anyone less than OCD sufferers - kill 5000 players as a chicken?). PQs are a great idea, but the implementation sucks. Open grouping is a great idea, but just exacerbates the empty server feel when no open groups exist. Crafting is a joke. PvE isn't keeping players hooked. PvP / RvR, which was meant to be the main focus of WAR, has turned out to be a pretty empty promise. Scenarios work for all the reasons RvR was meant to, minus any sense of permanence.

Finally, this one:

Seven years of running Camelot have given us a very good idea of what the classes need to do. Hopefully we've learned something like our expansion Trials of Atlantis, which pissed off just a few people.

Ultimately what I think we've learned from Camelot is how to give people different things to do. Different options for players to do on the PvE and RvR sides. Our dungeons and public quests and regular quests give players different ways to level on that side. What we tried to do when we laid out this game, "look you can level up any darn way you want." If you want to level up doing just RvR you can, if you want to just to PvE you can. If you want a combination, you can do that. I hope that's what people do!

The 'few' people is a joke, but I can't imagine a player being able to lvl up solely by doing RvR. And what exactly were the lessons learned from ToA? I'd love to know.

[Trippy]

You left out his NDA quote which by his own criteria meant the NDA not dropping on the end game until right before release meant "big trouble" for the end game (which prophetically turned out to be true):

However, what I do agree with is that gamers don't like being kept in the dark by an NDA and that if the NDA is kept in place until just before a game is launched that bad things can happen. As I've said before, my system for judging a company's confidence in its product is based on how early the NDA is lifted. I give the game one point for every week before launch that the NDA is lifted. A score of 1 or less means big trouble, 2-4 is okay but not great, 4-8 is good to great and anything higher than that is nirvana. I also agree that few MMORPGs have turned out to be anything like advertised pre-launch which is why the timing of the NDA lift is so important.

Also you are being kind regarding his AoC comments. You left out this part:

“If I was a ‘WoW’ subscriber, and I played another game hoping it would be great and it wasn’t, of course I would come back,” he said. “I’m not saying ‘Conan’ sucks but obviously the people who left it thought it sucked, otherwise they wouldn’t have left it. And the same thing may happen to us… ‘Conan’ had great sales initially, but then [Funcom] failed to follow up with continued great sales. If you’re not selling boxes anymore, if players aren’t talking about how good your game is, then obviously people are not happy with it.”

Gotta love his "I don't think it sucks but if people go back to WoW they think it sucks" comment.

So he felt he had to rip into AoC when Blizzard stated that people were returning to WoW from AoC but then got all hot and bothered when Blizzard said the same thing about WAR, even though WAR has the exact same problems he criticized AoC for (released too early, not good enough to keep players from going back to WoW).

[rk47]

heheh, it aint funny no more. it's just...sad. I feel.

[Pringles]

On the NDA, from what I've heard from elder beta testers (if its true) they were under NDA until a few weeks into release I think.
(I wasn't in it so I cannot verify, is there truth to this?)

I guess even on his own scales the game fails, since WAR would be traveling into negative territories if its true.   

[waylander]

Players aren't talking nice about Warhammer anymore/. Not there, not the vault, not mmorpg.com, and not the various blogs. This game is following a similar negative path that AOC followed. AOC got bashed for being buggy and incomplete. Warhammer is being bashed for being boring, bland, bad pve, bad itemization, and its core feature (RVR) being a joke.

Big problems, and continues to show that you've got to listen to your players or make big fixes fast. A lot of these problems were mentioned in beta, but were swiftly locked/crushed by mythic mods. So I guess they get what's coming to them since they didn't listen in the first place.

[slog]

On the NDA, from what I've heard from elder beta testers (if its true) they were under NDA until a few weeks into release I think.
(I wasn't in it so I cannot verify, is there truth to this?)

I guess even on his own scales the game fails, since WAR would be traveling into negative territories if its true.   

There are many F13 folks who thought the NDA was no big deal, and even flamed others for bring it up. My point being that a lot of long-time posters who should have known better also drank the Kool-Aide.


Some examples:

Riggswolfe “The Elder NDA is no cause for alarm”

 http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14370.msg513163#msg513163

Amiable:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14370.msg513187#msg513187

Draegan

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14370.msg513317#msg513317

EWSpider (who felt people whining about the NDA were mentally Handicapped)

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14370.msg513716#msg513716



And these are just from one thread

[FellintoOblivion]

Look at our PvE, our Public Quests, the Tome of Knowledge, open grouping, our crafting system — you’ll get all these things that are different from “WoW” and other games. That’s why you come.

Of all these things, the ToK is the only one that works well (although some of the unlocks are impossibly hard for anyone less than OCD sufferers - kill 5000 players as a chicken?). PQs are a great idea, but the implementation sucks. Open grouping is a great idea, but just exacerbates the empty server feel when no open groups exist. Crafting is a joke. PvE isn't keeping players hooked. PvP / RvR, which was meant to be the main focus of WAR, has turned out to be a pretty empty promise. Scenarios work for all the reasons RvR was meant to, minus any sense of permanence.

WoW has already copied the ToK and if any game can make PQs work it's WoW just through sheer amount of players.

MJ seems to think he's the savior of the MMO industry. Has the thought the industry doesn't NEED one ever crossed his mind?

[slog]

MJ seems to think he's the savior of the MMO industry. Has the thought the industry doesn't NEED one ever crossed his mind?

He's Brad McQuaid.  The industry has changed so much that time has passed him by.  He's still making games designed around grind.

[EWSpider]

There wasn't anything protected by the NDA that would have exposed the problems WAR is currently having.  The only things it prevents us from talking about are specifics with some of the high level dungeons, city invasion PQs, and the King encounters.  That's it.  The NDA has nothing to do with the current problems.  People have already explained how issues with oRvR came about and stuff like the high level gear sets weren't even in the beta that I'm aware of.

[UnSub]

Trippy - I started down that path, looked at the length of the post and scrubbed some.

The comment about early server consolidation is mentioned in the relevant thread, but I just keep getting left with the same issue:

How did Mythic not see a good number of these things coming, then talk up the game anyway in a way that significantly differed to how the game was actually designed?

[tolakram]

I don't have any issue with Mythic not seeing things coming, designing an RvR game is damn hard.

My issue is reaction and reaction time.  I'm being selfish here, I need more people to make the game fun and I can see the reasons people will leave.  Had a blast online last night, 2 hour skirmish in Tier 2 Troll Country.  I made, maybe, 2 bubbles (rectangle, thingy) of XP and maxed out my renown per my level early.

I'm sure they have this in the logs, I'm sure that someone competent could look at that and say 'Hey Bob, without players feeling like they progressed while having fun we might have an issue here'.   

Patch 1.1 might be the answer, but I haven't seen anything to make me believe it.   Why not?

[khaine]

MJ seems to think he's the savior of the MMO industry. Has the thought the industry doesn't NEED one ever crossed his mind?

He's Brad McQuaid.  The industry has changed so much that time has passed him by.  He's still making games designed around grind.

I guess instead of opiates and posting how he cannot go to the mass company firing because he would cry , MJ would be walking in that day with the almost empty bottle of JW Red , screaming how everyone should have listened to him , it's the players fault .....

Could be as much comedy gold as the Vanguard meltdown was

[amiable]

I'm not sure how the elder NDA has anything to do with the problems the game is currently having.  The current issues are a result of changes made after the Beta (nerfing XP gains) and things that weren't even released in the Beta (absurd gear grinds).  While I concede I was very wrong about the direction this game is taking, it had nothing to do with the NDA.

[Geki]

I'm not sure how the elder NDA has anything to do with the problems the game is currently having.  The current issues are a result of changes made after the Beta (nerfing XP gains) and things that weren't even released in the Beta (absurd gear grinds).  While I concede I was very wrong about the direction this game is taking, it had nothing to do with the NDA.

Agreed, there was really nothing in the elder tests that have anything to do with the current problems in the game.  The vast majority of elder testing material hasn't even been accomplished in the game yet, hard to see how it could have any relevance on the current state of the game. 

Most of the complaints of the game were raised during closed and even in guild beta, though most of the guild beta "testers" were just mouth breathers looking for a free game to play.  The xp nerf a week or so before release really hurt, but at the time nobody cared because they weren't necessarily trying to level at that time. There was no use trying to power level when your chars got wiped nearly on a weekly basis and you had all  your gear given to you via templates.

I have to say I am really shocked at how bad the itemization is currently in retail.  We raised hell about it in beta and it was always met with "there will be a huge pass on itemization before retail".  Tell that to the blackguard gear I got in gunbad last night, and the weapon skill on caster and willpower on ranged dps.  The only change I can see they made to gear itemization was to get rid of the actual useful renown gear pieces.

It's very disappointing, mainly because the dev team was so transparent and agile during closed beta.  They always reacted very quickly to any problems during the beta, right up to the point when guild beta started and then it dried up.  Most of us figured it was because they were trying to clean up before release but now I'm not sure.

[Warskull]

Mythic made a ton of good progress before release and it looked like they were working in the right direction.  I don't think anyone banked on them going retarded at release.  There have been patches that fix stuff, but some major issues have yet to be properly addressed.  You stack up the annoyances and MMO players get frustrated.  Frustrated players get angry and quit.  Throwing frustrated players into a wall of grind (T3/T4) is a great way to lose your player base.

[waffel]

And the grind isn't even fun. Somehow, in some strange way, the grind in DAoC seemed more enjoyable. It was probably because you knew once you got to 50 the end game RvR was pretty a lot of fun most of the time.

[CecilDK]

I think some of the smaller issues could have been fixed before release and should have been seen.

But I think a lot of the games problems are systemic in nature and not easily fixed---they may have seen issues with how spread out everyone was and how large the world was, but at that point there wasn't much they could do to change it.

[Zzulo]

man, having an NDA was not somekind of sleazy attempt to hide somekind of horrible state of the game

The game was super fun in the beta, mostly because RVR was the popular thing to do, (due to how they funneled people) and no one gave a shit about leveling.

[Slayerik]

Mythic made a ton of good progress before release and it looked like they were working in the right direction.  I don't think anyone banked on them going retarded at release. 

Never go full retard.

[Pringles]

man, having an NDA was not somekind of sleazy attempt to hide somekind of horrible state of the game

The game was super fun in the beta, mostly because RVR was the popular thing to do, (due to how they funneled people) and no one gave a shit about leveling.

I'm pretty sure no one said it was necessarily there to hide the flaws.  I'm just saying that it is pretty damn funny he rates games by how long their NDA goes and yet his own NDA went after release.  If he gives +1 for every week before release the NDA is lifted, I guess WAR gets what? -2? -3? -4?

I know it was fun in beta, that's why I bought it.  Some how they dicked it up though.

[UnSub]

I was going to ignore Barnett because he was just too easy, but this one article should be remembered. The grand irony is that apparently Barnett / Mythic didn't actually learn a number of these lessons:

Barnett cautioned against letting so many team members chip in ideas that it leads to feature creep. "Everyone on the team from designers to coders will try to expand upon it and before you know where you are you no longer have your core idea anymore," he said.

He pointed to Counter-Strike as a good example of a game that stuck to its core ideas without pretensions. There are "no tech trees, no increasing stats, no going to the moon," he pointed out. "Trust your core idea."

Despite RvR being WAR's focus, apparently Mythic didn't trust this core idea enough given what WAR is at this point.

Surprisingly, he noted that he does not play other MMOs, including the ubiquitous World of Warcraft. "[MMOs] are cancerous and will change the way you think," he warned. "People on the team come with a design idea - they are corrupted in their thinking by WoW, corrupted to such a degree that they don’t even realize it, not capable of thinking sideways because they knew the answer, and it worked, and it made a lot of money for another game. Why would you do something different?"

He answered his own question: "WoW is a work of flawed genius. This means that when you dismantle [it], you can never be too sure if you got the genius or the flaw." World Of Warcraft is to MMOs what The Beatles are to music, Barnett said - WoW made prior MMOs irrelevant. But you can’t be The Beatles. If you try, he quipped, you will "...end up as the Monkees."

"I can’t tell what is flaw and what is genius in WoW, so I don’t want to get sucked into copying things in case I get the wrong one," the amusing Barnett continued. "'No one’s going to play our game unless it also had elephants!' No. Don’t be swayed. And stop playing World Of Warcraft."

I wonder if by not playing WoW, Barnett was unaware exactly how much of it was ending up in WAR's PvE? Because if it was all new original thinking that got us to where WAR is, god help future MMO development.

Also, WAR is a long way from being the Monkees - currently they are closer to the Archies.

I hire less talented believers over talented heretics every time. Three-star ability with five-star drive is how you want it.

... and believe me, I've seen the impact of those three-star ability people.

[ffc]

Surprisingly, [Barnett] noted that he does not play other MMOs, including the ubiquitous World of Warcraft.

I like that.  Makes good business sense to ignore your competitors, including the most successful competitor of all.

I thought I read McQuaid did not play WoW either, but I can't find the source.  Anyone know?

[schild]

I like that.  Makes good business sense to ignore your competitors, including the most successful competitor of all.

wat

[ffc]

In trying to figure out if McQuaid refused to play WoW, I reread this.  Barnett jibba jabbas like him.

To be clear, ignoring other MMO's while making an MMO is  .

[Arthur_Parker]

Another quote on the NDA.

Linky

Everyone should also please keep in mind what I've been saying for years, look at when a developer lifts the NDA before launch to see how much faith they have in the game's success. If we don't lift ours before well before launch, hell, I wouldn't buy our game either or at least I'd wait till the reviews came out. This policy has never failed me.

[Pringles]

Another quote on the NDA.

Linky

Everyone should also please keep in mind what I've been saying for years, look at when a developer lifts the NDA before launch to see how much faith they have in the game's success. If we don't lift ours before well before launch, hell, I wouldn't buy our game either or at least I'd wait till the reviews came out. This policy has never failed me.

Fuck, I could have saved $100.

Why didn't I see this.    

[JWIV]

Another quote on the NDA.

Linky

Everyone should also please keep in mind what I've been saying for years, look at when a developer lifts the NDA before launch to see how much faith they have in the game's success. If we don't lift ours before well before launch, hell, I wouldn't buy our game either or at least I'd wait till the reviews came out. This policy has never failed me.

Fuck, I could have saved $100.

Why didn't I see this.    

I've no idea -   because that fucking phrase has been drummed and argued over for months, not just here, but everywhere.

[MerseyMal]

Despite mostly doing the same scenarios over and over and over again, I'm still having fun in WAR. That mostly is due to being in a guild and alliance with people who I formerly played DAoC with. I suspect if they weren't around I'd be binning it when my first subs are due.

[Triforcer]

When WAR lost its luster for me (happened quite suddenly mid-October, one day I was playing 7 hours and the next I couldn't log in ever again) I felt free for the first time in a long time.  Nothing big on the horizon MMO-wise, I could move on with my life (although I hadn't played an MMO in the year prior to WAR, I followed WAR a lot and had much hope).  I was finally free.

Then, six days later, SWTOR was announced.     And dammit, I'm a fucking addict and I have to follow this now.  Couldn't they have given me more than 6 fucking days??

[Nebu]

It's funny you mention it Tri.  I was playing WAR happily until about the third week in and BAM, I got hit in the face.  I was standing at a quest giver waiting to play the same scenario for about the 10th time that night and it just stopped being fun.  I haven't had my love for a game end this abruptly... well... ever.  It makes me sad.  I really wanted WAR to be "that game I had been waiting for".  I need a new robot Jesus. 

[Slayerik]

Sounds a lot like what happened to me and AoC.

The problem there was....."So I am grinding to get to an unfinished and shitty Endgame? Fuck you Funcom".

And that was that.

[gamerjock]

And the grind isn't even fun. Somehow, in some strange way, the grind in DAoC seemed more enjoyable. It was probably because you knew once you got to 50 the end game RvR was pretty a lot of fun most of the time.

Exactly.  Sure ae/stun grinding mobs wasnt a blast but the game itself held so much to keep you coming back (meaningful Realm Abilities, rr5 abilities, relics, darkness falls, stealth wars).  As it is I havent really played this game in a couple days and didn't really miss it. 

Sad from a 5 year DAOC player. 

[Morfiend]

It's funny you mention it Tri.  I was playing WAR happily until about the third week in and BAM, I got hit in the face.  I was standing at a quest giver waiting to play the same scenario for about the 10th time that night and it just stopped being fun.  I haven't had my love for a game end this abruptly... well... ever.  It makes me sad.  I really wanted WAR to be "that game I had been waiting for".  I need a new robot Jesus. 

Almost the exact same thing happened to me Nebu, except it was t4 Scenario that did it.

In beta I HATED Serpents Passage. Like loathed it. But I couldnt remember the name, and recently a few of my guild mates invited me to do t4 scenarios (im level 30) and when I realized that Serpents was the only one that popped on my server, it instantly sucked all my will to level out of me. There is no way I can stand to do SP like 100+ times. I have been struggling to log in ever since. It just stopped being fun.

[Ingmar]

It's funny you mention it Tri.  I was playing WAR happily until about the third week in and BAM, I got hit in the face.  I was standing at a quest giver waiting to play the same scenario for about the 10th time that night and it just stopped being fun.  I haven't had my love for a game end this abruptly... well... ever.  It makes me sad.  I really wanted WAR to be "that game I had been waiting for".  I need a new robot Jesus. 

Diablo 3 *is* robot Jesus, but like regular Jesus, it involves a lot of waiting.

[waffel]

I suddenly stopped playing at around 27 after the millionth tor anroc queue. Just closed the game out and did something else. The next day I tried to play again, tried to do some tome unlocks, ran around the empty world and logged off again. This went off and on until I decided I'd just suck it down and force myself to get to T4 while all my other friends stopped playing.

Got to T4, did serpents passage a few times with 5+ BWs every time and then that was it. Game over, man. Game over.