Well. I fixed this problem.

[Falconeer]

This is the right time. If Funcom was competent enough to pull out RIGHT NOW some non-uber guild PvP content (simple lower levels conquerable Towers/Keeps), close and delete all the PvE servers, and a "Welcome back! programme" they would win back lotsa people. Too bad they are no competent enough.

Or maybe it's better for the Lich King storm to pass.

[Modern Angel]

I am just speechless at this. And mad. But not so mad that I'm not going to go play a zombie.

Seriously. I'm really disappointed in this. 1-20ish is the best game I've ever played MMOwise. But this... god, I don't even know how to properly verbalize just how bad these decisions are.

[UnSub]

Thank God.  If this game had lasted another week or two I might have actually bought it. 

(I too am following the "does F13 get tired of it after the free month is up" metric of whether to bother with any given MMO.)

So you're never going to play another MMO again?

As long as he always intends to join Bat Country and waits until the game is a month or so old, he'll never have to.  It's a circle of joy.

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

[Herring]

I am just speechless at this. And mad. But not so mad that I'm not going to go play a zombie.

Seriously. I'm really disappointed in this. 1-20ish is the best game I've ever played MMOwise. But this... god, I don't even know how to properly verbalize just how bad these decisions are.

The bolded statement reminds me so much of Age of Conan's Tortage.  It starts off so good, and then...

[Modern Angel]

See, I dig that. 1-20, both games, people like them, fine. But Mythic seems to take the part that people are bitching about the most (PvE) and then MAKING you do it to do the part people like. That's not precisely what other companies do. Well, other smart companies.

[WindupAtheist]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

I'm not aware of anything coming up in the near future. Unless the looming WAR vs Lich King showdown goes way different than anyone is expecting, it's looks like the entire first post-WoW generation of MMO games will have failed to outperform EQ1. I don't expect anyone to beat Blizzard, but vaulting the peak EQ1 bar would be a nice way for someone else to at least prove they aren't a fuckup.

[UnSub]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

I'm not aware of anything coming up in the near future. Unless the looming WAR vs Lich King showdown goes way different than anyone is expecting, it's looks like the entire first post-WoW generation of MMO games will have failed to outperform EQ1. I don't expect anyone to beat Blizzard, but vaulting the peak EQ1 bar would be a nice way for someone else to at least prove they aren't a fuckup.

I'll go hang my hopes on ChampO then. 

[Herring]

Darkfall?   

[Pringles]

Darkfall?   

IZ IT REAL? 

[Miasma]

Thank God.  If this game had lasted another week or two I might have actually bought it. 

(I too am following the "does F13 get tired of it after the free month is up" metric of whether to bother with any given MMO.)

So you're never going to play another MMO again?

As long as he always intends to join Bat Country and waits until the game is a month or so old, he'll never have to.  It's a circle of joy.

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

I'd have said SWTOR but what little info they released doesn't sound good.  The screenshots make me cringe too...  I also don't like the way its acronym works out, I say we keep calling it KotORO.  That was really my last hope, now I'm worried Schild's "it's not really bioware - it's a rogues' gallery of devs from really bad MMOs" doomcasting is true.

[schild]

I'm not doomcasting it. Other devs have gone onto other things and made great shit even if you hadn't heard about it. Wizard101 for example. Anyway, point being, I just want people to be informed since half the internet is just OMGBIOWAREBIOWAREBIOWAREADOIAJJDFASDOFAJOMFGAJSAHALP.

[rk47]

it's too early to tell, but tell me if you forming a 1 month guild again. i want to pew pew too.

[Hayduke]

I don't really think Bioware is such a good company to be doing MMOs anyway.  They've always excelled at storytelling but their games always have terrible combat systems and terrible gameplay balance.  It doesn't seem to me that it's a good idea to head into a new field that's just going to expose your weakness and hide your strengths.  Unless Bioware manages to completely turn the market on its head, which is incredibly doubtful.  For all its faults I'd have more faith in Bethesda.

[stu]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

Starcraft Universe/Diablo Online

[Pringles]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

Starcraft Universe/Diablo Online

I would try em.  For 1 month at least. 

[BitWarrior]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

Honestly, this is an issue for me. My wife and I met through WoW (not kidding), and we've since dropped it after doing the entire "go hardcore, be the first on your server to kill Illidan, etc etc." We're looking for something new, and WAR was meant to be it, but we quickly saw the numerous levels of fail the game exhibited. We played Guild Wars in the past, and right now we're actually going through Neverwinter Nights again, but what is really on the horizon that looks good? Sorry, just can't get excited about a Star Wars MMO, and the wife has zero interest in it.

It feels like there's this huge space available for a competitor, but no one has really stepped up to the plate successfully. What really is there on the horizon?

[Zupa]

I honestly think that one person could fix this game and make it everything everyone wanted it to be. 

That one person would have to be in an appropriate position of power, have a workable vision of the future, and NOT BE A COMPLETE FUCKING ASSHAT at the same time!

Unfortunately Mark Jacobs does not appear to be that man. 

All this crap seems to be coming from people who are in a meeting and probably dealing with some impossible asshole who is running the show and calling the shots.  Wards on armor sets being a requirement?  Sounds like somebody just wanted to the the hell out of that room and whatever idea they vomitted up was good enough for the rest of the committee, who also wanted to call it a day.

"just add an arbitrary cockblock to endgame progression, that always works.  they love that.  the customers, they LOVE it, now can someone call MJ and tell him how awesome that idea is so we can all get the fuck outta here, its ten past five already, and i have to pick the kids up from soccer"

I see too many committee-style decisions which appear to be made by a bunch of people who clearly don't represent the player base, and in fact do not play the game live at all.  Even if they do, they manage to display such a mind-numbing detachment from the game that they wouldn't know NOT-FUCKEN-FUN if it turned up for dinner and took a steamy dump of INESCAPABLE-GEAR-GRIND-LOL right on the table in front of the board of EA directors.

... to be honest you could take 10 of the kids who are wagging school to play the game RIGHT NOW and at least nine of them would have better ideas that what we have seen from Mythic in the past week.

... they would even do it FREE.  Hell some people not only think about solutions, they discuss them with others in an intelligent manner in a public and open forum (omgzforum!) and Mythic doesn't even have to pay them to do it... or even say thank you! 

they could just go right ahead and FIX it!  but nooooooo lets not fix the future of our game, lets deal with the here-and-now cockblocking of progression!  That's what people want!  Not what they are all saying they want all over the freaking internet!

FUCKERS!

My solution: keep rolling alts up to level 20 until something drastic happens.  If I get to more than 5 level 20s I think I'll go buy an xbox or something.

[schild]

Don't press enter a bunch at the end of your posts. Also, your froth seems a little incoherent.

And never, ever say "fucken" again, that word isn't for you. It's for Grunk and I had to check your IP to make sure you weren't him. Though, given his absence, I assume he's back in rehab.

[BitWarrior]

Zupa,

Your comments sound so grossly exaggerated as to the point of sounding like the ultimate anti-fanboi. You say near anyone could make this game better, and while you readily point out obvious and already well commented failings, you fail to provide any semblance of an original idea. You're basically exagga-bitching. I also firmly believe that any idea you propose after this message will be incredibly full of holes; including lack of vision, consideration for scaling, technical viability, balance and originality.

But go ahead, prove me wrong.

[schild]

But go ahead, prove me wrong.

I can't say challenging the poor guy was a good idea.

After all, he did say 'fucken.'

I should stop making "in" jokes with new people.

[Righ]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

Starcraft Universe/Diablo Online

I'm excited about the prospects for Traveller, Riverworld, Luther Arkwright, Eternal Champion and Rim World MMOs. The fact that nobody is working on them is a bonus given the current state of the industry.

[UnSub]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

Starcraft Universe/Diablo Online

I'm excited about the prospects for Traveller, Riverworld, Luther Arkwright, Eternal Champion and Rim World MMOs. The fact that nobody is working on them is a bonus given the current state of the industry.

GURPS Online is going to be AWESOME!

[Velorath]

Thank God.  If this game had lasted another week or two I might have actually bought it. 

(I too am following the "does F13 get tired of it after the free month is up" metric of whether to bother with any given MMO.)

You're missing out on what's most likely the only time these games will ever be fun.  Regardless of not making it past the free month, I do think I got my money's worth out of both AOC and WAR.

[Zupa]

What bothers me the most is that the issues with the game seem so obvious, and as such relatively simple to identify and resolve. 

Unfortunately Mythic appear to be missing the obvious issues or their obvious fixes.  One example would be server population density and the current exp / renoun bonus model, and the upcoming server transfers. (and of course the no-scenario server idea but let's not take that seriously for now)

Obvious problem with solutions that will obviously fail at resolving it. 

[mol]

What bothers me the most is that the issues with the game seem so obvious, and as such relatively simple to identify and resolve. 

Unfortunately Mythic appear to be missing the obvious issues or their obvious fixes.  One example would be server population density and the current exp / renoun bonus model, and the upcoming server transfers. (and of course the no-scenario server idea but let's not take that seriously for now)

Obvious problem with solutions that will obviously fail at resolving it. 

So, this has been troubling me for some time. Server population, even during launch, was so RETARDEDLY (not a word!) low that the game felt empty then. I get that in RvR you want a more manageable server pop size, because obviously 20,000 people trying to take Praag would be bad. But, given that there are 9 tier 4 zones, plus fortresses and cities to conquer, scenarios on top of that, it seems like Mythics biggest fuck up was gross mismanagement of server populations.

Right now I login and wander high-end t3 and low-end tier 4. I see no one. PQs are empty. I queue for scenarios and on prime time sunday night I had to wait 15-20m for a game to start. We did get 1 warband together and took 4 keeps... we saw maybe 15 order the whole 2 hours we rampaged.

So there a I am, 4 people in my 200 person guild online on a sunday evening, wandering around looking for something to do and seriously contemplating logging into WoW for some PvE because I'm just that bored. If the rate of attrition is as bad as it seems to bem Mythic's going to be need to cut 50% of their servers.

Another thing I don't understand -- sharding and RvR. Given todays technology when it comes to instancing, it sees to me that using world instances or virtual shards, or whatever you want to call it, is a much better way to handle server population  -- especially in a game where server population determines if the game is fun or not. Sharding is great in WoW, most servers are PvE and PvP servers tend to have high populations. But in WAR without people, you have no game (lolpve)...

I'll stop rambling now.

[rk47]

See, I dig that. 1-20, both games, people like them, fine. But Mythic seems to take the part that people are bitching about the most (PvE) and then MAKING you do it to do the part people like. That's not precisely what other companies do. Well, other smart companies.

i was surprised i ran into T4 PQs that asked me to kill only 40-80 mobs instead of the 150 they put in lower tiers. Seriously. Wtf. Is there even a point in making kills higher? cause it hurts more than it helps.

[FellintoOblivion]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

I'm not aware of anything coming up in the near future. Unless the looming WAR vs Lich King showdown goes way different than anyone is expecting, it's looks like the entire first post-WoW generation of MMO games will have failed to outperform EQ1. I don't expect anyone to beat Blizzard, but vaulting the peak EQ1 bar would be a nice way for someone else to at least prove they aren't a fuckup.

This brings up the interesting discussion of whether anything WILL be as popular as EQ1 (WoW not withstanding). MMOs remind me of slap bracelets but on a longer time line. Everyone went bat shit insane over them at first and by the time companies jumped on the bandwagon and got their 'innovative' leopard print and Simpson character versions out it wasn't a cash cow anymore.

[ironic]

I am just speechless at this. And mad. But not so mad that I'm not going to go play a zombie.

Seriously. I'm really disappointed in this. 1-20ish is the best game I've ever played MMOwise. But this... god, I don't even know how to properly verbalize just how bad these decisions are.

Agreed but doing so more than three times and the game will really start to lose it's appeal and then you're screwed.

[Nebu]

... and then you're screwed.

I have a feeling we're already screwed.   

[BitWarrior]

This brings up the interesting discussion of whether anything WILL be as popular as EQ1 (WoW not withstanding). MMOs remind me of slap bracelets but on a longer time line. Everyone went bat shit insane over them at first and by the time companies jumped on the bandwagon and got their 'innovative' leopard print and Simpson character versions out it wasn't a cash cow anymore.

It's just a matter of time. The reality is, everyone is still trying to out-WoW WoW. In Paul's own words, they have tried to be Zeppelin to WoW's Beatles, but they turned out to be The Monkeys.

Simply put, WoW is the king of Diku. With basically 8 years of development now and some of the best minds in the industry and near unlimited pockets, no one is going to usurp their position using the same formula. If WoW is a fridge, with a lot of "normal" refrigerator space (PvE) and only a little freezer (PvP), then WAR is just a fridge with a shit ton more freezer than refrigerator. That's not innovation, and they're not going to take away anything significant from the WoW crowd using that formula.

Eventually, someone will actually innovate, and innovate well. A paradigm shift will be required to go to a better place that WoW cannot follow.

[Gurney]

This brings up the interesting discussion of whether anything WILL be as popular as EQ1 (WoW not withstanding). MMOs remind me of slap bracelets but on a longer time line. Everyone went bat shit insane over them at first and by the time companies jumped on the bandwagon and got their 'innovative' leopard print and Simpson character versions out it wasn't a cash cow anymore.

It's just a matter of time. The reality is, everyone is still trying to out-WoW WoW. In Paul's own words, they have tried to be Zeppelin to WoW's Beatles, but they turned out to be The Monkeys.

Simply put, WoW is the king of Diku. With basically 8 years of development now and some of the best minds in the industry and near unlimited pockets, no one is going to usurp their position using the same formula. If WoW is a fridge, with a lot of "normal" refrigerator space (PvE) and only a little freezer (PvP), then WAR is just a fridge with a shit ton more freezer than refrigerator. That's not innovation, and they're not going to take away anything significant from the WoW crowd using that formula.

Eventually, someone will actually innovate, and innovate well. A paradigm shift will be required to go to a better place that WoW cannot follow.

I would argue WoW became king by taking some stuff OUT of DIKU.  Such as annoying death penalties.  People keep trying to copy WoW but do not copy WoW's sensibilities and perceptivness.  The reason WoW is more successful than EQ1 is precisely because its less DIKU.  Or perhpas less MUD-like.

I played an LP MUD and I disliked the DIKU might as well be D&D (or some were d&d) MUDs as rather confining and everyone being the same.  But most of the stuff WoW changed from EQ were things I always disliked immensly but tolerated when I used to play MUDs.

There is more to WoW than its DIKU formula.  They know people better than a lot of these shut ins.

[BitWarrior]

I would argue WoW became king by taking some stuff OUT of DIKU.  Such as annoying death penalties.  People keep trying to copy WoW but do not copy WoW's sensibilities and perceptivness.  The reason WoW is more successful than EQ1 is precisely because its less DIKU.  Or perhpas less MUD-like.

I played an LP MUD and I disliked the DIKU might as well be D&D (or some were d&d) MUDs as rather confining and everyone being the same.  But most of the stuff WoW changed from EQ were things I always disliked immensly but tolerated when I used to play MUDs.

There is more to WoW than its DIKU formula.  They know people better than a lot of these shut ins.

Exactly. Being the "king" of Diku I didn't mean they implemented Diku to a T. I mean they perfected it. Taking out the insane death penalties is one excellent example, as you mentioned.

WoW's development team took a look at nearly every aspect of the EQ and Diku formula and asked "Do we really need to do it this way, is there something better?" Rested XP to help people out, for example, was a great innovation.

That being said, the next competitor needs to have a serious look at the conventions WoW has and ask if that's really needed. Do mobs REALLY need to drop trash? Should NPC's really be mindless pez-dispensers? Could we not implement real acting (think: Half Life 2's Alex) into quest givers? Do we really need dozens upon dozens of quests, or could we just do "mission" based gameplay? What about providing the SDK to actually allow user-created content? What would that look like? Are there other carrots beyond gear? Could we make gear and stats independent? Should end-game always be 10, 25 or 40 people picking on 1 boss, or could we provide epic encounters where you're actually outnumbered? Dramatic overhaul, and questioning every convention that exists.

Looking towards LP would be a good idea. Right now, everyone compares their product to WoW. However, when WoW was being made, they were comparing themselves against EQ. EQ was comparing themselves to MUDs. Innovation on the foundational level of MMO's will be required to make any dent in WoW's marketshare, not just readjusting what aspect of gameplay is the center focus as WAR did (ie: PvP over PvE).

[tolakram]

Yea, but money and time are constants, or frankly it always costs more and you have less time to do it.

Regardless, to do all this super neat stuff you need more time and more money and right now there doesn't seem to be a guaranteed path to success, even if you did everything the way everyone said you should.

That's a pretty grim outlook for new MMO developers.

[BitWarrior]

Yea, but money and time are constants, or frankly it always costs more and you have less time to do it.

Regardless, to do all this super neat stuff you need more time and more money and right now there doesn't seem to be a guaranteed path to success, even if you did everything the way everyone said you should.

That's a pretty grim outlook for new MMO developers.

You know, the same thing could have been said about search engines. Look at the position Yahoo! and Altavista was in before Google came onto the scene. However, Google wound up doing search better than any of them could, without all the "extra". No more constant porn in search results, no more 404 pages and dead links. I felt horrible back then when the younger sister of a friend of mine was trying to use the internet to do a research project. She was looking for "pictures of beavers". Well, you can imagine what results she got =(

Google didn't have a ton of money, but they had a superior idea and implementation. AMD didn't have nearly the reputation of Intel, but they managed to compete on Intels weakspots and make some pretty good early moves. Same with ATI vs. nVidia. Nintendo doesn't have the deep pockets like Microsoft, but they're out there butting heads, largely because Nintendo decided to go down a new road, rather than trudge along the same beaten path.

Sure, it'll take money to compete with WoW, but not as much as people think it will. It WILL take billions if you want to out-WoW WoW (since you have to make up for their 8 year headstart), but if you truly come from a position of innovation, it will likely take only a modestly increased budget over any good game developed today.

[Ratman_tf]

You know, the same thing could have been said about search engines. Look at the position Yahoo! and Altavista was in before Google came onto the scene. However, Google wound up doing search better than any of them could, without all the "extra". No more constant porn in search results, no more 404 pages and dead links. I felt horrible back then when the younger sister of a friend of mine was trying to use the internet to do a research project. She was looking for "pictures of beavers". Well, you can imagine what results she got =(

Google didn't have a ton of money, but they had a superior idea and implementation. AMD didn't have nearly the reputation of Intel, but they managed to compete on Intels weakspots and make some pretty good early moves. Same with ATI vs. nVidia. Nintendo doesn't have the deep pockets like Microsoft, but they're out there butting heads, largely because Nintendo decided to go down a new road, rather than trudge along the same beaten path.

Sure, it'll take money to compete with WoW, but not as much as people think it will. It WILL take billions if you want to out-WoW WoW (since you have to make up for their 8 year headstart), but if you truly come from a position of innovation, it will likely take only a modestly increased budget over any good game developed today.

My favorite point is that Blizzard didn't always have deep pockets and a throng of loyal fans. Everyone starts out small.