SWTOR

[Evildrider]

Yep exactly, I mean if I roll a rogue in WoW and I don't like it, they should let me respec into a warrior if I wanted.

Actually, yes...

Although this is really akin to letting a Druid switch between Balance, Feral, and Healing.  I'll also point out that EQ2 had this system at launch and it was one of the first things to change, which was a very popular decision.

See that is the problem, you guys are looking at AC's as they are specs in WoW.  They aren't.  The specs are within the AC's.  So a Vanguard can be a tank or a dps and a Commando can be a dps or heals. 

[Surlyboi]

Exactly. Hence one of my beefs with comparing things with other things where the comparisons break the fuck down.

[Hutch]

Yeah this tripped me up at first too. I was thinking of the classes as classes, like they are in WoW or FFXI, which are the other class-based games that I've spent significant time in.

Coming from that perspective, the "aha" moment came when I realized that the Advanced Classes are really what I was thinking of as classes.

Another way to look at it: by the time in your character's life that respeccing or dual-building is going to make a difference, you're not going to be a Jedi Knight anymore. You're going to be a Guardian or a Sentinel. The base class only goes to 10, and the AC goes to ... hey, what is the level cap in this game anyway?

[Surlyboi]

50

[Sjofn]

I'm in the "if it has the same storyline, it should be able to switch between ACs" camp. I think of it like the RIFT classes, actually, rather than WoW talent trees.


EDIT: And this is coming from someone who played through DA:O ten fucking times, so it's not "waaah I don't want to do a story I've already done" talking here.

[Ingmar]

The specs in the next WoW expansion will work exactly like that actually; frost mages literally will not know fireball and fire mages won't know frostbolt. But they'll still let you switch specs, and it will be fine. World will not end.

[Sky]

My guild of people I work with, i think two of us have pre ordered but perhaps the other guy hasn't entered a code. The other two haven't pre ordered or haven't entered the code. I'll check.

You'll need four accounts with pre-order codes entered.

As far as the AC thing, they're mostly very different, with a few shared abilities. A Sage is a single-saber ranged healer/dps caster-type where a Shadow is a dual-bladed saber melee stealth dps or tank; they play almost completely differently.

Ingmar: but they're both ranged casters, yeah?

[Evildrider]

The specs in the next WoW expansion will work exactly like that actually; frost mages literally will not know fireball and fire mages won't know frostbolt. But they'll still let you switch specs, and it will be fine. World will not end.

Mage is 1 class with 3 specs.  You can train all the abilities and not have access to them depending what spec you are in.

Trooper is 2 classes with 3 specs each.  Within the AC's, you can not even learn the other classes abilities.

This isn't hard.  If your only main complaint is they share the same story, I assume you never rolled more than one character in WoW or almost any other MMO.

[Paelos]

This isn't hard.  If your only main complaint is they share the same story, I assume you never rolled more than one character in WoW or almost any other MMO.

From what I understand, you pick an AC to fill a role. Exactly how much difference is there between the specs within each AC?

[Ingmar]

The specs in the next WoW expansion will work exactly like that actually; frost mages literally will not know fireball and fire mages won't know frostbolt. But they'll still let you switch specs, and it will be fine. World will not end.

Mage is 1 class with 3 specs.  You can train all the abilities and not have access to them depending what spec you are in.

Trooper is 2 classes with 3 specs each.  Within the AC's, you can not even learn the other classes abilities.

This isn't hard.  If your only main complaint is they share the same story, I assume you never rolled more than one character in WoW or almost any other MMO.

There's not going to be training anymore, you get the abilities as you go up in level ONLY if you are in the right spec. Frostbolt won't even be in the spellbook for a fire mage. It really is basically the same thing now (or will be).

EDIT: And to expand on the story thing, until this last expansion I always had multiple characters at max level in WoW because I could level them up through different zones and have a differentt experience. Cata doesn't have enough 81-85 content to allow multiple paths and combined with the fact that you can't really jump off the rails and do stuff in a different order in those zones, I only managed 2 this time and the second one was pretty dull. So yeah, that would indeed be a big concern for me.

I've never had more than one max level character in any other MMO at all, for similar reasons.

[Lantyssa]

Although this is really akin to letting a Druid switch between Balance, Feral, and Healing.  I'll also point out that EQ2 had this system at launch and it was one of the first things to change, which was a very popular decision.

See that is the problem, you guys are looking at AC's as they are specs in WoW.  They aren't.  The specs are within the AC's.  So a Vanguard can be a tank or a dps and a Commando can be a dps or heals. 

Please see my comment on EQ2.  A game which did Advanced Classes, and got rid of them.

I am not looking this as they are specs in WoW so much as what I consider poor game design.  Specs, Advanced Classes, etc. are just arbitrary classifications for a group of abilities.  There is as much reason to not switch classes as to not switch advanced classes as to not switch specs:  tradition and some handwaving that "it doesn't work that way".

[Nevermore]

The specs in the next WoW expansion will work exactly like that actually; frost mages literally will not know fireball and fire mages won't know frostbolt. But they'll still let you switch specs, and it will be fine. World will not end.

Mage is 1 class with 3 specs.  You can train all the abilities and not have access to them depending what spec you are in.

Trooper is 2 classes with 3 specs each.  Within the AC's, you can not even learn the other classes abilities.

This isn't hard.  If your only main complaint is they share the same story, I assume you never rolled more than one character in WoW or almost any other MMO.

Your mistake is in thinking the semantics matter.  It boils down to this: choices = good.  limiting choices = bad.  I don't give a fuck if their classes, advanced classes, archetypes, souls or whatever you want to call them.  If there's one thing that Rifts has proven, it's that people* love choices and flexibility with their characters.

*except for the small minority that seem to enjoy hammering their own nuts with wooden mallets.

[caladein]

I'm of two minds over AC switching.

Firstly, I'm very much in favor of them because I don't think players should be asked to make irrevocable decisions about something like roles before they have the chance to really sink their teeth into what those choices mean.  The level you pick ACs at is much too early for that in my opinion.  Out of all the SWTOR classes (proper) you're only locking yourself out of one role at most at character select.  This is a good thing in that I believe that there are players, especially in a mass-market title like this, that would be willing to tank or heal if they also liked the character around them.  Pure DPS classes/whatever have value, but should be the exception as they are in this game, not the norm.

Also in favor of switching is that it's impractical to ask for rerolls for a new AC given the apparently linear and story-driven structure of the game.  I would see rerolling as a massive chore, especially once my character gets a lot of stuff built up on it.

The other mind though sees the value of locking down characters.  I for example would only ever swap out of Mercenary if its damage was terrible and we didn't need a proper healing.  I'm just going to heal or shoot.  My friend is pretty set on Sniper as his experience playing hybrids is that everyone else expects him to heal or tank, when he's really just a damage dealing kind of guy.

This value also extends to how the developers create content.  As an example, I'm of the opinion that multi-spec'ing hasn't been some great liberator of choice and multi-arena flexibility at the push of a button, the games are now just balanced around the concept that players will swap between the best spec for each situation.  (Yes, I'm including Rift: "five specs YEAH!" ignores the context that game's builds are actually quite limited in functionality.)

Ideally, I'd prefer the choice, but in the real world, I don't think being able to swap actually makes my experience much better.

Edit: Grammar.

[Amaron]

I still don't buy the storyline argument.   The game has 4 classes and 8 advanced classes.   If they allow AC switching that means you'll have to level the same class twice if you want to do all the story lines.

[Ingmar]

I still don't buy the storyline argument.   The game has 4 classes and 8 advanced classes.   If they allow AC switching that means you'll have to level the same class twice if you want to do all the story lines.

Which is perfectly fine with me (and also sort of not true, since I only really care about the option to switch ACs once I'm done leveling.)

[koro]

Maybe they should just let the player decide what weapon they want to use...

On every section of the forums, beta and non-beta alike, that is pretty much the biggest request across the board. It'll probably be that one niggling thing that Bioware is going to get bitched at for years, like Blizzard and its "player silhouette" horseshit. It's pretty much why I refuse to play any Jedi other than a Guardian or Seer, because I dislike the aesthetics of either double-bladed sabers or dual ones.

[Nevermore]

Maybe they should just let the player decide what weapon they want to use...

On every section of the forums, beta and non-beta alike, that is pretty much the biggest request across the board. It'll probably be that one niggling thing that Bioware is going to get bitched at for years, like Blizzard and its "player silhouette" horseshit. It's pretty much why I refuse to play any Jedi other than a Guardian or Seer, because I dislike the aesthetics of either double-bladed sabers or dual ones.

I imagine part of the issue is having to animate various powers with various weapons.

[caladein]

I still don't buy the storyline argument.   The game has 4 classes and 8 advanced classes.   If they allow AC switching that means you'll have to level the same class twice if you want to do all the story lines.

Are the advanced class stories actually different inside the same class?  I figured they wouldn't diverge very often.

[Hutch]

There's not going to be training anymore, you get the abilities as you go up in level ONLY if you are in the right spec. Frostbolt won't even be in the spellbook for a fire mage. It really is basically the same thing now (or will be).

That's news to me. I thought the talent changes for MoP were just going to fold the current talents into the leveling process (so if you pick a spec, you learn that spec's abilities as you level after 10). I didn't know they were going to take away pre-spec abilites (e.g. Frostbolt) once you pick a spec. Or is Frostbolt just a bad example?

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Bioware is trying their hardest to make all the classes as equal as possible.  So say a Pure DPS spec like Sniper will do the same damage as a Sith Juggernaut if he us spec'd for DPS.  The differences come in how they do their damage and what other utilities they can bring. [...]

However if you do a hybrid spec, meaning you only go halfway up the dps tree and halfway up a tank tree, you will not be optimal and shouldn't expect to be as good as someone that has spec'd fully in one area.

The question is really whether there are important activities where having a team full of hybrid spec players can actually be more (or equally) effective than a similar number of specialized players. This seems to me to be a major gap in most MMO encounter design -- generally you only want these sort of specs to do things that are very easy faster (like grind solo, or clear trash between important boss fights), and rarely (or never) to do very hard things well. It would be interesting to see encounters that allowed both hybrid and specialized approaches, and/or dungeons full of encounters that varied in terms of which spec approach was more effective.

[koro]

Maybe they should just let the player decide what weapon they want to use...

On every section of the forums, beta and non-beta alike, that is pretty much the biggest request across the board. It'll probably be that one niggling thing that Bioware is going to get bitched at for years, like Blizzard and its "player silhouette" horseshit. It's pretty much why I refuse to play any Jedi other than a Guardian or Seer, because I dislike the aesthetics of either double-bladed sabers or dual ones.

I imagine part of the issue is having to animate various powers with various weapons.

That's the crazy thing, though. Very few skills and abilities have truly unique animations, and a lot of abilities already have alternate animations made for weapons that your class can't use! There are some problems with giving any class access to any weapon, though, but most of them are all related to itemization and statting issues.

[Mrbloodworth]

Child object will follow any parent node its at attached to.

[Ingmar]

There's not going to be training anymore, you get the abilities as you go up in level ONLY if you are in the right spec. Frostbolt won't even be in the spellbook for a fire mage. It really is basically the same thing now (or will be).

That's news to me. I thought the talent changes for MoP were just going to fold the current talents into the leveling process (so if you pick a spec, you learn that spec's abilities as you level after 10). I didn't know they were going to take away pre-spec abilites (e.g. Frostbolt) once you pick a spec. Or is Frostbolt just a bad example?

You will learn 'core' skills, which will be stuff like polymorph, arcane intellect, etc., the kind of general stuff everyone uses, and then 'spec' skills which only your spec gets - fireball, frostbolt, arcane blast, etc. They said the starter spell that you use from levels 1-10 will be frostfire bolt for mages.

They haven't yet published (or probably even finalized) the full list of what is core/spec/etc,. so there's a bit of speculation involved still.

[Ingmar]

Maybe they should just let the player decide what weapon they want to use...

On every section of the forums, beta and non-beta alike, that is pretty much the biggest request across the board. It'll probably be that one niggling thing that Bioware is going to get bitched at for years, like Blizzard and its "player silhouette" horseshit. It's pretty much why I refuse to play any Jedi other than a Guardian or Seer, because I dislike the aesthetics of either double-bladed sabers or dual ones.

I imagine part of the issue is having to animate various powers with various weapons.

That's the crazy thing, though. Very few skills and abilities have truly unique animations, and a lot of abilities already have alternate animations made for weapons that your class can't use! There are some problems with giving any class access to any weapon, though, but most of them are all related to itemization and statting issues.

I suspect in order to fix it they'd have to decouple character type stats from weapons and leave them with just stuff like damage, accuracy, etc. It has the sound of a decision on itemization/how stats work that was made too early in the process to fix now.

[Kageru]

I hope this MMO can offer something mildly interesting in terms of new game mechanics. Not even at launch and already the only thing being discussed is class specs and itemization, with the class specs by and large sounding traditional and dull.

Hopefully the interesting stuff is still hiding under their NDA shield.

[Ingmar]

I wouldn't hold your breath, nothing I've heard says the game is mechanically innovative in particular.

[Shatter]

I hope this MMO can offer something mildly interesting in terms of new game mechanics. Not even at launch and already the only thing being discussed is class specs and itemization, with the class specs by and large sounding traditional and dull.

Hopefully the interesting stuff is still hiding under their NDA shield.

This is not the MMO you are looking for *waves hand*

[Evildrider]

I hope this MMO can offer something mildly interesting in terms of new game mechanics. Not even at launch and already the only thing being discussed is class specs and itemization, with the class specs by and large sounding traditional and dull.

Hopefully the interesting stuff is still hiding under their NDA shield.

There is very little hiding under the NDA at this point.  If there is anything big coming out, it will probably happen during the fan site summit coming on the 6-8th.  There are no more big conventions til after launch.  Other than that if you are expecting something outside of the norm of the MMO space, this game is not for you.  If you like current MMO's and Bioware games than you will have a good time.

[Nevermore]

I wouldn't hold your breath, nothing I've heard says the game is mechanically innovative in particular.

I'll just be happy if there's no such thing as anything resembling a Fear mechanic.

[Sky]

Class stories are for base class, not AC. One of the more compelling arguments for allowing AC swapping.

[Pezzle]

How many of you AC switching Jihadists have played the beta?  

[Amaron]

Are the advanced class stories actually different inside the same class?  I figured they wouldn't diverge very often.

There are only four base classes and four mirror classes on the other faction that are EXACTLY the same mechanically.   So that's four classes total if we allow frequent AC switching.    So even if the AC's have exactly the same storyline that's still 8 storylines for 4 classes.

If the AC storylines actually diverged that would be 16 storylines for 4 classes.

[Margalis]

IMO hybrids only have a place solo/duo or in situations where aggro control is something other than bog-standard MMO.

In most games it makes no sense to go something like DPS / Tank hybrid. If you are the DPS you won't get attacked so tank abilities are irrelevant and if you are the tank you want to be the best tank possible so that your glass cannons can shoot shit.

Now in a game where aggro control is looser and everyone can get attacked hybrids make a lot more sense. To me it's really unfortunate that MMOs have gone down this road where encounters are so easy to control and one person on your team (or one group) is predictably always the one taking damage.

[Ingmar]

The companions should cover any hybrid type needs for solo play in any case.

[Cyrrex]

I'm just going to warn all you BC folks right now...if we really do end up on an RP server, I am going to roleplay the shit out of this.  My nerdboner is now fully engorged.  I may even type in a British accent.