SWTOR

[Nyght]

It peer pressure man. I am not even interested in this game but feel like I have to play it. Its so shiny and new.   

[Ginaz]

That's fine by me. Is someone here pressuring you to play it or something?

Probably not, but that wasn't her point.  If EA is asking people to pay them for pre-orders already, then there shouldn't be restrictions on the info available to customers.  This isn't comparable to movies or any other foolish analogy like that since you're generally not asked to pre-pay for your ticket weeks or months ahead of the opening.

[Mosesandstick]

You don't even need the leaks, with the exception of opinions of specific testers there is really nothing worthwhile that you don't already know from official sources.

I don't get this attitude. How can anything replace the experience of spending tens or even hundreds of hours with the game?

[Reg]

That's fine by me. Is someone here pressuring you to play it or something?

Probably not, but that wasn't her point.  If EA is asking people to pay them for pre-orders already, then there shouldn't be restrictions on the info available to customers.  This isn't comparable to movies or any other foolish analogy like that since you're generally not asked to pre-pay for your ticket weeks or months ahead of the opening.

When Phantom of the Opera opened in Toronto tickets were sold out like a year in advance.  But seriously, anyone that doesn't want to pre-order can just not pre-order right? It's not like they'll be missing out on anything important.  I thought Lantyssa had already decided not to buy the game it just based on its cost.  But perhaps I'm confusing her with someone else.

When I'm doubtful about a game I just don't buy it until after it's released and I get to hear what people think about it.

[eldaec]

You don't even need the leaks, with the exception of opinions of specific testers there is really nothing worthwhile that you don't already know from official sources.

I don't get this attitude. How can anything replace the experience of spending tens or even hundreds of hours with the game?

You're right, reading leaks is nothing like spending tens or hundreds of hours in game.

[Mosesandstick]

Poorly phrased, apologies. People are reporting on their experience in game, which at the very least isn't designed to sell the game.

[Velorath]

That's fine by me. Is someone here pressuring you to play it or something?

Probably not, but that wasn't her point.  If EA is asking people to pay them for pre-orders already, then there shouldn't be restrictions on the info available to customers.  This isn't comparable to movies or any other foolish analogy like that since you're generally not asked to pre-pay for your ticket weeks or months ahead of the opening.

You can buy movie tickets in advance.  For Harry Potter they sold tickets a couple months in advance without having any sort of non-NDA focus test so people could get the word out in advance if the movie was good or shit.  I'm fairly sure I could go pre-order any number of books online as well.  And talk of limited quantities of SWTOR aside, I'm pretty sure you can get by without pre-ordering (or you could pre-order hours before release), so it's not like there's some sort of pressure to pre-order right fucking now so we have to have as much info as possible to make an informed decision. 

But even if you want to get away from analogies about how very few unfinished products are given to a sizable percentage of potential customers to test with no restrictions on being able to talk about it, even the vast majority of games are the same way.  You can pre-order Dark Souls or Rage right now.  Both come out in less than a month.  Aside from some impressions from PAX or Gamescom or such, try finding any detailed hands on impressions from anyone outside the press.

[Lantyssa]

I thought Lantyssa had already decided not to buy the game it just based on its cost.  But perhaps I'm confusing her with someone else.

I'm still probably not based on that alone, however many of my old friends, their siblings, my cousins, my online friends, etc. are getting this.  Enough that I'm at least willing to consider doing so for social reasons if nothing else since I have employment now lined up.  I'd like to know I'm not regretting the purchase within a few days should I do so.

If I wait until a month or two in, then everyone's well on their way to 50, at which point there's no reason for me to get the game for social reasons because I won't be able to play with them.  Starting new characters never works.  They have their mains and I spend months busting my arse trying to catch up only to burn out or them to quit the game because they've already done all the content.

Theater analogies are still fucking awful.  1) *I* don't pre-order them, 2) different entertainment medium, 3) different commitments, 4) the story is known for all the sell-outs used as examples, 5) I don't do movies or theater, 6) I already said I have standards and expectations, 7) Are you even reading anything I'm writing?, 7) *I* am not pre-ordering those games I know nothing about, 8) GhaaAAAHHHAAAaaaa!

[Rasix]

You seem awfully concerned.

[eldaec]

Everytime someone pre-orders a game, a kitten dies.

A KITTEN

[Velorath]

Yes, I'm reading everything you're writing Lanty for better or worse, and I don't have any objection to you not pre-ordering stuff without hearing impressions from other consumers.  The one thing I have an issue with in everything you said is that:

Frankly it's as good as a scam to me, because they're taking money while refusing to tell me what I'm getting.  That's what doesn't sit well with me.

Because frankly, it's just a pretty standard way that most companies market and sell products.  Typically MMO's have been an exception, but when one publisher doesn't follow that formula in the time frame people want it (they could still very easily drop the NDA weeks or months before release depending on the release date), that doesn't make it like a scam.  Really though, I don't know what any beta testers could tell you that would make you feel better about slogging through a game you're clearly not interested in, that you only feel obligated to play due to social reasons.  I don't have any insider knowledge, but I'm guessing there isn't some secret nugget of information that's going to make this game into anything other than what every bit of media out there that's been released has painted it as.

[Nebu]

While I'm guilty of a preorder myself, don't preorders just encourage Bioware to rush out an unfinished product?

[Evildrider]

The only thing that Bioware may be hiding is a couple of surprise systems, like the legacy system.  Other than that I can't see them hiding any OMGWTF things for this game.  The classes are revealed, the planets are revealed, the combat system is out there for you to see, it's got story, they've released the races (sans cyborg), they've given out pvp details, showed you the flashpoints and operations etc.  Even if you watch beta videos they aren't anything special.  It's just pictures of skill trees and them running around killing stuff.  

There is a ton of information that is out there legitimately.  I really don't know what people screaming about the NDA think they are hiding.  If the NDA were dropped you'd see a lot more people spilling story details and major plot points more than anything else.  Other than that, do you all want something like tankspot videos of all the flashpoints and operations or something?  Between the info thread on the SWTOR forums and the MMO-Champ thread there isn't much more you can ask for.

[Evildrider]

While I'm guilty of a preorder myself, don't preorders just encourage Bioware to rush out an unfinished product?

I don't think so at this point, with the way they've been talking and handling the pre-orders its more about gauging how many are going to slam their servers and for them to figure shit out before that happens.  If they were gonna rush out an unfinished product people wouldn't be bitching about the lack of a release date.

[Velorath]

While I'm guilty of a preorder myself, don't preorders just encourage Bioware to rush out an unfinished product?

Could go either way.  I think if a developer offers up a game for pre-order and sees weak sales and little interest that would cause more incentive to cut their losses and release early.  I think ultimately if a publisher doesn't care about releasing an unfinished product though, they'll do it regardless of pre-order numbers.

[Margalis]

If you pre-order a ticket to a theater production you are buying a seat that you might otherwise not get, like booking a reservation at a popular restaurant.

When you pre-order a game you are reserving a bunch of bits on a computer that have infinite supply and could be available to every single customer day one. It's completely different, there is no scarcity and no reason to get in ahead of other people unless the publisher arbitrarily adds one to sweeten the deal.

[Malakili]

If you pre-order a ticket to a theater production you are buying a seat that you might otherwise not get, like booking a reservation at a popular restaurant.

When you pre-order a game you are reserving a bunch of bits on a computer that have infinite supply and could be available to every single customer day one. It's completely different, there is no scarcity and no reason to get in ahead of other people unless the publisher arbitrarily adds one to sweeten the deal.

Well, in this case there is scarcity, haven't they said they are releasing a limited number?

[Velorath]

If you pre-order a ticket to a theater production you are buying a seat that you might otherwise not get, like booking a reservation at a popular restaurant.

When you pre-order a game you are reserving a bunch of bits on a computer that have infinite supply and could be available to every single customer day one. It's completely different, there is no scarcity and no reason to get in ahead of other people unless the publisher arbitrarily adds one to sweeten the deal.

Well, in this case there is scarcity, haven't they said they are releasing a limited number?

Nobody has sold out yet though.  I'd be surprised if Amazon, Walmart, Gamestop, Best Buy, Origin, and the rest aren't taking pre-orders all the way up until launch.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Wow, the fanboys are coming out of the woodwork.

You know what movies do? They send copies to critics far in advance.(bad movies do not do this)

You know what plays do? They sell tickets in advance BECAUSE YOU FUCKING KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING WITH PHANTOM OF THE OPERA(seriously, some of these arguments are retarded)

Games create demos that you can download and play the first level to do this.

NOW: I'm not saying SWTOR is a bad game, by all accounts people playing the beta are enjoying wow 1.5 and that's great. What I am saying is that keeping the nda up right until release is very stupid and usually smacks of an inferior product. Lantyssa is right that it is disingenuous to ask people to pay money for a product they only have the vaguest sense of.

My theory, compounded by the fact they are saying pre-orders are limited, is that all of this is just a ploy at hyping up the game to extreme amounts. making it hard to get on release day and creating a fervor over getting your hands on it.  For some things it worked, the Wii was a good example of how sought after and hard to find on release it was.

 With an online game though, the limited quantities and nda are in my opinion a hindrence as these types of things are all about word of mouth.

[Threash]

The info people are looking for isn't about stuff in the game, what the NDA is preventing is people saying "this game blows" or "this game is awesome".  That's what we freaking want to know.

[Velorath]

Wow, the fanboys are coming out of the woodwork.

You know what movies do? They send copies to critics far in advance.(bad movies do not do this)

Actually, most of the time they screen the movie in a theater for multiple critics at once.  I'd say roughly around 90+% of reviews come out one or two days before the movie releases.  Sometimes there are early reviews (film festival screenings, limited releases and the like), but it you don't believe me look at Rotten Tomatoes right now.  Two out of three of next Friday's release have no reviews up yet.  Early reviews you see posted up from readers at AICN and such are the equivalent of leaks, typically coming from focus group testing which is under NDA.

You know what plays do? They sell tickets in advance BECAUSE YOU FUCKING KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING WITH PHANTOM OF THE OPERA(seriously, some of these arguments are retarded)

I guess your argument here is that no new plays have been created in the last several decades, but I'm also not going to pretend to know enough about Broadway musicals to comment on how they do their marketing.  I know people were asked not to talk about test shows of Spider-man: Turn off the Dark, but after the first few people panned it, I think everybody started dogpiling on it.

Games create demos that you can download and play the first level to do this.

Some do, some don't, and they typically don't come until well after the pre-orders have started.  On average it seems like demos come out about a week or two before the game releases.  I don't think Starcraft 2 got a demo until almost half a year after the game came out.  I can't think of any demo's off the top of my head that came out before the publisher was even ready to announce a release date.

[Velorath]

The info people are looking for isn't about stuff in the game, what the NDA is preventing is people saying "this game blows" or "this game is awesome".  That's what we freaking want to know.

That seems to be the only leak that nobody cares about enforcing.  There are people in this very thread on both ends of the spectrum who have said whether or not they'll be buying this game based on their experience in the beta.  Go to the NeoGaf thread and you'll see much the same thing if that's all you're looking for.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Starcraft 2 had an open beta months before release. Do you actually know anything you are talking about or just spouting off random bullshit facts to justify your rabid devotion to anything involving SWTOR?

[Kirth]

Rabid...his RABID someone get the tranq gun.

I know this is gonna break the but the super sekret think bioware isnt telling you is that swtor has...

[Velorath]

Starcraft 2 had an open beta months before release. Do you actually know anything you are talking about or just spouting off random bullshit facts to justify your rabid devotion to anything involving SWTOR?

Way to refute one aspect of one point.  I could also point out that some games like Fallout 3 for instance never got a demo, but whatever.  Has nothing to do with being a fanboy.  I feel the same way about pretty much any game, it just happens that this thread is the one the argument is going on in (because this is the thread where a fuckton of stupid arguments go on in).  You aren't going to see me crying in the Guild Wars 2 or TSW threads that the NDA needs to drop because I have to plan out months or years in advance whether or not they're day 1 purchases for me (before in fact we even know which day "day 1" will be).  I know based on what I've seen that I'll pick up GW2 at launch and won't bother with TSW.  It doesn't typically take a flood of information for me to make a purchase.  I know that much like Lanty's situation with SWTOR, the only reason I'd pick up Diablo 3 at this point is if certain people I play online with pick it up.  Seeing people who get in the beta slobber over the game isn't really going to make me feel any better about the purchase.

Fuck, most the people here that are calling for the NDA to drop on SWTOR are the ones who have already said they don't want to buy the game.  Like I've said, anybody who's actually looking to make an informed buying decision will be able to do that just as easily if the NDA drops one week prior to the game's release when shit is actually finalized as the would now.  Any argument otherwise is just impatience or a sense of entitlement.  Doesn't anybody really think there's going to be some shortage of opinion about this game on the Internet until after launch?

[Sobelius]

Rabid...his RABID someone get the tranq gun.

I know this is gonna break the but the super sekret think bioware isnt telling you is that swtor has...

(see original post for spoiler)

I feel they actually said this when they said there would be no auto-attack. Of course, they've gone back and forth on auto-attack several times so who knows where it'll land.

[Evildrider]

Wow, the fanboys are coming out of the woodwork.

Funny thing is the haters are worse than the "fanboys" in this thread.  I'm not telling people to buy the game, but if you want info on the game there is a shitload out there including on leak sites, if that's your thing.

If you have to rely on other people's opinions about a game, that isn't out yet, than that's your problem.

[Margalis]

It's completely different, there is no scarcity and no reason to get in ahead of other people unless the publisher arbitrarily adds one to sweeten the deal.

Well, in this case there is scarcity, haven't they said they are releasing a limited number?

The scarcity is completely manufactured.

If you have to rely on other people's opinions about a game, that isn't out yet, than that's your problem.

Given that the game isn't out and likely won't have a demo / trial once it is aren't other people's opinions the ONLY thing you can rely on?

Fuck, most the people here that are calling for the NDA to drop on SWTOR are the ones who have already said they don't want to buy the game.  Like I've said, anybody who's actually looking to make an informed buying decision will be able to do that just as easily if the NDA drops one week prior to the game's release when shit is actually finalized as the would now.  

This discussion is largely about pre-orders so this point of yours is complete nonsense. If you do not pre-order the game now it could in theory run out and you also are punished by getting to log in later than other people as well as having fewer features. They are asking you to hand over your money now, not a week before release. That's really the entire crux of this discussion. So no, waiting for a week before release to drop the NDA is not the same as dropping it now. The game has already been released to consumers to buy.

You aren't going to see me crying in the Guild Wars 2 or TSW threads that the NDA needs to drop because I have to plan out months or years in advance whether or not they're day 1 purchases for me (before in fact we even know which day "day 1" will be)

We aren't talking about day 1 purchases, we are talking about day -180+ purchases. Which are encouraged by gimping the day 1 release.

[Evildrider]

So you are going to rely on opinions based on a product that isn't in a release state?  You can wait til they have a trial or something it'll just be awhile after launch.

Also, I've preordered... haven't spent a dime on it, and don't have to til the launch date.

[Modern Angel]

The examples being used are pretty over the top but I distinctly remember at least three games being absolutely TRASHED here by the MMO dudes when other companies did the whole NDA til release thing. I'm just trying to remember which they were.

[Kirth]

The examples being used are pretty over the top but I distinctly remember at least three games being absolutely TRASHED here by the MMO dudes when other companies did the whole NDA til release thing. I'm just trying to remember which they were.

WAR
something something (AoC?, Rift?)

[Modern Angel]

WAR was the one that immediately jumped to mind.

[Sky]

(seriously, some of these arguments are retarded)

[caladein]

Starcraft 2 had an open beta months before release. Do you actually know anything you are talking about or just spouting off random bullshit facts to justify your rabid devotion to anything involving SWTOR?

It has very little to do with SWTOR really.  Lantyssa's asserting that taking pre-orders before an amount of information is released that meets her standards is a scam.  Ignoring the arbitrary (but valid, it's her's or anyone else's money after all) standard and use of the quite strong "scam" there are a two important points to raise:

Timing. If significant pre-order incentives are given only for pre-ordering before N date (see: Dragon Age II) then yes, the eventuality of the NDA dropping (or more information coming out, whatever applies) "at some point" before launch ceases to matter.  Otherwise, if not enough information is known for one to feel they're making an informed decision, then they can wait for more information.  SWTOR only meets this problem in head-start placement and in the vague risk that they'll hit some sales limit.  I don't think those count as significant for someone that's on the fence.  Therefore the "information standard" can be considered to float on a per-person basis.

Deposit. The information needed probably has some relationship to how much money is asked to be put down.  I can pre-order something from Amazon at zero risk because they won't charge me until it ships.  Steam on the other hand charges me right when I order.  I am much more free with pre-ordering things on Amazon and then maybe canceling it whereas I frequently "pre-order" on Steam at the last minute.  SWTOR through Origin involves putting down $5.  If you're down with a box, Amazon will take your order and still give you the pre-order code, and won't charge one until they ship.

So, considering that one can pre-order at almost certainly the last minute without missing much for zero cost and very low risk, it's not fair to call SWTOR offering pre-orders when they did a "scam".

[Lantyssa]

WAR is the one I mainly remember.  Rift dropped theirs pretty early.  AoC went a little later than people liked, but I think they gave us at least a month (and is to date the only game I know of where the miracle patch made a difference).

I can't think of any other major MMO releases since then.