SWTOR

[Sheepherder]

Even worse however is when some developer gets it in their head that it would be fun to make a "ranged cc class" which inevitably dominates in PvP until they are nerfed, which always occurs far to late to cure the damage done (see: early WoW warlock, current WoW frost mage).

Prior to TBC warlocks were a joke.

Payback was a bitch though after I successfully nailed one guy who thought he was invincible in a close combat scenario he decided to be a prick when he caught me in the open an hour later and nailed me 6 or 8 times from about 40' with his turbo powered gun.  It was like being shot with plastic bullets and left bruises that lasted most of a week.  A fine example of pay-to-win PvP that I never went back to.

Large numbers of bounces and bloody welts is fairly common for shit paint that's been left sitting far too long.

Every paintball gun should be chronographed to the same velocity (normally ~280 feet/second) before the game.  It's also bad form for a field owner to throw a bunch of scrubs against guys bringing their own gear.  You're just lucky that you weren't playing against people with modern guns, because the low end is still the same old, but $250 will get you something that shoots 17 rounds/second.  The guy who owned that field is shitty at his job.

[Azuredream]

Even worse however is when some developer gets it in their head that it would be fun to make a "ranged cc class" which inevitably dominates in PvP until they are nerfed, which always occurs far to late to cure the damage done (see: early WoW warlock, current WoW frost mage).

Prior to TBC warlocks were a joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqaBjgAaUI&feature=related

Rogues are scissors. Warriors are rock. Hunters, Paladins, Priests, Druids, Mages, and Shamans are paper. Warlocks are mushrooms. Paper beats rock. Scissors beat paper. Scissors also happen to beat rock. Until rock hits 60 at which point rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine and then also beats paper, and would beat scissors, but it can't find scissors, because scissors are invisible. So scissors beat paper, and avoid rock, and that is called: balance.

[Amaron]

I've never understood that either. Having spells and skills work differently in PVP vs PVE just seems like such an obvious way to defuse the tension between fans of the two game types.

Judging by how long it takes them to work on any balance changes at all I'd guess they have some pretty inflexible code on the backend.   There have been some signs that this might change in other games though.   ChampO clearly has a system that allows them to make sweeping balance changes very cheaply for instance.   WoW could obviously rewrite their backend to do the same and then separate PvP/PvE but without competition why bother?   By the same token if WoW succeeds without bothering then investors won't give the go ahead to try it in other MMO's.

[Sky]

WoW is a standard to hold to only in terms of sales and subs. Because someone else has inevitably done a system better.

EQ2 has always split the pve and pvp code. No need to reinvent the wheel, you just have to be smart enough to not slavishly ape WoW when its systems aren't really the reason it's popular.

At the very least things should work differently in pvp-enabled areas, like dedicated pvp servers and arena/warfront/whatever areas. Ideally, the system would just see "target=player" and apply rule B of ability X, because then you could apply it to open flagged pvp on a pve server if needed. Or just go ahead and keep pissing off pve players and pvp players as each sees tweaks due to the other ruleset that negatively impact their own ruleset. Because people LOVE THAT.

[Fordel]

GuildWars also has a split PvE/PvP on their abilities.



I get the theory of having everything on one system, but it's one of those things that always falls into the "if you can do it right!" trap. IE: no one ever does it 'right'. Like the first step in doing it right, would be designing all your mechanics with PvP first in mind, then adjusting your PvE to fit those abilities, instead of the current design of making stuff for pve and just hoping it works out in pvp.

Mobs don't give a shit if they get farmed by some over powered combo, people do.

[sam, an eggplant]

Rift does as well-- in fact, Rift has the best implementation of a PvP/E split of all. Each class has PvP-only souls.

[Sky]

Rift does as well-- in fact, Rift has the best implementation of a PvP/E split of all. Each class has PvP-only souls.

Heh, good one.

 

[sam, an eggplant]

Did that not work out? Perhaps I should have said Rift had the right idea, not the best implementation, since I don't play it.

[caladein]

It's a shitty idea too unless the interesting mechanics and playstyles are mirrored in appropriate souls for both gametypes.

[Ginaz]

Fuck me.  I need to check my email more often.  I've had the beta invite in my inbox since 3 Aug and I've been on leave the whole time.  I'm off tomorrow too so I at least have one whole day to play.  

Downloading the updates now. SQUEEEE!!!!

Edit: Maybe I won't be playing it tomorrow.  19 GB download.

[eldaec]

Edit: Maybe I won't be playing it tomorrow.  19 GB download.

You must be misleading that download total etc etc...

[apocrypha]

Fuck anybody and everybody that uses "Star-Warsy" as an adjective to describe anything. It was fuckstupid when it was used to indict SWG and it's fuckstupid now.

Get fucked yourself. You know what the word means. It's a perfectly valid requirement of any game using such a strong IP - that it actually resembles said IP. If you would prefer that instead of using the term "Star Wars-y" (in quotes no less, to indicate that I am well aware that it's not a real word) I write "bearing a good likeness to the source material known as the Star Wars universe, although generally giving more credence to the movies which are far more widely familiar than any other part of that original IP".... well, then I refer you to the first sentence of this increasingly long paragraph.

[Ginaz]

Edit: Maybe I won't be playing it tomorrow.  19 GB download.

You must be misleading that download total etc etc...

I wish.  16 GB to go. 

[eldaec]

And the other 119....

[Murgos]

And the other 119....

That joke got old 2 months ago when the original poster apologized for posting misleading information.  That YOU keep doing it, and only you, is pretty obnoxious.

[Cyrrex]

Has anyone else ever done a ranged tank before outside of gimmick fights?

For a short period in SWG CU, I was (I think) Master Defender, Master Rifleman and CM 4xxx.  I never heard of anyone else with such a template, but let me tell you, I was a PvE JUGGERNAUT.  For a fun time I would wade into a bunch of mobs in our group setting and aggro the ever-loving shit out of them, do most of the damage, all of the healing and barely get scratched.  People were all like WTF?!  I don't think I ever PvPed with that template, but I did with a similar template with no CM (and just regular medic healing).  Was rather effective.

On another note, I submit that Oil Tanking should forever replace Ranged DPS as an acceptable term in the F13 dictionary.

[Ginaz]

"This environment is currently unavailable for play."  What the hell does that mean???   Pack of bastards.

[Rasix]

"This environment is currently unavailable for play."  What the hell does that mean???   Pack of bastards.

Quit talking about the beta, smart guy.

[Surlyboi]

Fuck anybody and everybody that uses "Star-Warsy" as an adjective to describe anything. It was fuckstupid when it was used to indict SWG and it's fuckstupid now.

Get fucked yourself. You know what the word means. It's a perfectly valid requirement of any game using such a strong IP - that it actually resembles said IP. If you would prefer that instead of using the term "Star Wars-y" (in quotes no less, to indicate that I am well aware that it's not a real word) I write "bearing a good likeness to the source material known as the Star Wars universe, although generally giving more credence to the movies which are far more widely familiar than any other part of that original IP".... well, then I refer you to the first sentence of this increasingly long paragraph.

Take the sand out of your vajeezy, Francis. It's still fuckstupid. And if anybody suggests jumping up and down and running and gunning is what this or any other game needs to "feel more like the IP", they need to stop playing fucking MMOs with any tie to any IP period.

[Threash]

I would prefer running around jumping than standing at point blank range trading blaster shots any day.

[Malakili]

stop playing fucking MMOs with any tie to any IP period.

Probably good advice.

[Mrbloodworth]

Someone is angry about a game?

[kildorn]

IMO, it's only starwarsy if 95% of blaster shots miss, and it only takes one hit to kill anyone.

Me? I'm going with the old trilogy's opinion of blasters.

[Sky]

I need to know that there will be incestual kissing, otherwise it's clearly not true to canon.

[apocrypha]

Fuck anybody and everybody that uses "Star-Warsy" as an adjective to describe anything. It was fuckstupid when it was used to indict SWG and it's fuckstupid now.

Take the sand out of your vajeezy, Francis.

You were the one coming in all sandy, I was just responding in kind.

If you have a point to make then please make it. Do you object to the term "Star Wars-y" and my use of it, or do you object to the substance of what I'm arguing?

If you want me to clarify, again, then I said that a common complaint leveled against SWG (and in fact one of the main justifications for the CU/NGE that killed the game) was that it didn't feel enough like Star Wars. I maintain that most of the videos I've seen of TOR suffer from some of the same problem. Now, if you want to discuss that, then that's fine, but don't start throwing abuse at me with nothing to back it up and expect me to ignore it.

You're so surly.

[Tmon]

stop playing fucking MMOs with any tie to any IP period.

Probably good advice.

I'd change it to licensed IP.  The most disappointing MMOs I've played have been built around licensed IP.

[Surlyboi]

Fuck anybody and everybody that uses "Star-Warsy" as an adjective to describe anything. It was fuckstupid when it was used to indict SWG and it's fuckstupid now.

Take the sand out of your vajeezy, Francis.

You were the one coming in all sandy, I was just responding in kind.

If you have a point to make then please make it. Do you object to the term "Star Wars-y" and my use of it, or do you object to the substance of what I'm arguing?

If you want me to clarify, again, then I said that a common complaint leveled against SWG (and in fact one of the main justifications for the CU/NGE that killed the game) was that it didn't feel enough like Star Wars. I maintain that most of the videos I've seen of TOR suffer from some of the same problem. Now, if you want to discuss that, then that's fine, but don't start throwing abuse at me with nothing to back it up and expect me to ignore it.

You're so surly.

Didn't throw abuse at you. I threw it. You happened to jump in the way. That said, the problem with SWG was once again the fact that it was a great game, ahead of its time that was poorly suited to the IP. Especially when some of that IP's most memorable bits can be summed up by the star wars kid and some of the other shit listed here by Sky and Kildorn. Basically Star Wars is a bunch of different shit to a bunch of different people and nothing massively multiplayer will ever capture enough of what everyone's built up in their heads to ever be "that great Star Wars experience". And I'll reiterate, any MMO is poorly suited to the IP and will invariably bring complaints of "not star-warsy" or what ever you want to call it. Me? I'll settle for good enough.

That said, fuck yeah, I'm surly.

[Rasix]

I'd say the game appears KOTOR-y enough, whether or not that's Star Wars-y enough for someone is up to the individual.  If you're going to base the game against the movies, the collected game library (mostly crappy!), novels, comics, and other EU nonsense, then yah, it's not going to encompass it all.  

Honestly, I hope we don't go down this rabbit hole again.  We all know 95% of what this game is.  Anything else is just self delusion at this point.

That said, the problem with SWG was once again the fact that it was a great game, ahead of its time that was poorly suited to the IP.

The first part of that sentence just makes it seem like you're off your rocker.  But I'd rather not pad the way to 300 with more SWG talk.  

[Surlyboi]

Heh, no rabbit holes. I'll agree combat sucked in a lot of ways, but the emergent shit was dead on.

[Rasix]

That works for me.  The issues I had were mostly combat related. (Well, outside of droid engineer. I still have no idea if they had a solid vision for that profession.)

SWTOR really needs to get rid of this NDA.  I think it may be doing more harm than good at this point.

edit: I mean, they have to drop it eventually, and then everyone will know exactly what it is and won't be able to kid themselves anymore.  It's not like this sort of relevation will take months and they can skirt the effect with a short time between NDA drop and release.  Keeping the NDA up to release would just be... I don't know, idiotic, deceptive, and paranoid.

[Surlyboi]

Agreed.

[Malakili]

That works for me.  The issues I had were mostly combat related. (Well, outside of droid engineer. I still have no idea if they had a solid vision for that profession.)

SWTOR really needs to get rid of this NDA.  I think it may be doing more harm than good at this point.

edit: I mean, they have to drop it eventually, and then everyone will know exactly what it is and won't be able to kid themselves anymore.  It's not like this sort of relevation will take months and they can skirt the effect with a short time between NDA drop and release.  Keeping the NDA up to release would just be... I don't know, idiotic, deceptive, and paranoid.

Its not like there hasn't been an enormous amount of leaked stuff anyway.  I know thats off limits here so I won't say anything specific, but realistically, anyone who cares enough to be upset about what the game is or isn't is probably capable of finding this stuff out.

That being said, I agree with what you said in principle - I can't really see the point of the NDA at this stage. 

[WindupAtheist]

The NDA ceased to exist weeks ago everywhere but here, and inside some EA executive's head.

[Reg]

Yea the NDA is just stupid at this point. I've looked around at some of the leaks and it's not like they have anything terrible to hide.

[Kirth]

The NDA ceased to exist weeks ago everywhere but here, and inside some EA executive's head.

I had always thought that they were more stringent here because of a (or what used to be) developer presence. Unless its a blizzard title.