SWTOR

[Fordel]

This is a balance issue how?

[Surlyboi]

Fuck that.

There's plenty of shit to pan this game for, because you didn't see shit in the movies is not one of them.

Boo hoo.  If a smuggler hiding behind a rock and being specced as a healer can't be made fun of for not being star warsy, then this thread is going to get boring fast.
[/quote]

No less boring than trotting out that argument for the thousandth time.

[Mrbloodworth]

Things I'm liking:

Story stuff
Dialog choices
Graphics and locations
Most classes

Things that turn me off:

Stand and fight
The space part looks fun, but a bit to "on rails" to me.
Classes that seem odd ( Smuggler/healer? )

[Sky]

The smuggler healing surprised me, too. I thought that was consular and the smuggler was more of a rogue type dps. Whatever, works for me.

The only thing that really bugged me was the odd consular visual of pulling up old oil tanks or whatever out of the ground to throw at the enemy.

[Mosesandstick]

Maybe the classes can specialise in different ways? We're still just speculating...

[Murgos]

The smuggler healing surprised me, too. I thought that was consular and the smuggler was more of a rogue type dps. Whatever, works for me.

The only thing that really bugged me was the odd consular visual of pulling up old oil tanks or whatever out of the ground to throw at the enemy.

Honestly, I got a really bad vibe from the consular.  Hey, it's a Jedi!  That can't defend herself, and has to stand in the back, and makes hand waving motions to little or no effect and occasionally rips the SAME dirty water tank out of the ground and throws it at people.

Um, ok.  The trooper and Jedi Knight looked okay though.

[Lucas]

Because, from what I gathered by following various devs interviews and/or posts on the forums, in reality all classes will have healing capabilities in some forms, even if it's not going to be their main focus. That's because of the extreme "solo friendly" nature of the game.

Ah, another news item worthy of note: by reading some of the latest Q&A from PAX East, as it stands now, Companions are totally removed from the raid/flashpoint content, you won't be able to summon them. They are currently testing them in PvP environments, no final word on that yet.

Also, no day/night cycle: "fixed" light cycles depending on the environment/point of the story you are exploring.

They are also trying to convey the size of planets: the explorable area of Alderaan is 7-8 WoW zones, while the "Origin" worlds are smaller in size and more focused. They are using "phasing".

Finally, they considered implementing a third faction (presumably the Hutts) but eventually found it "too expensive" to do.

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm not that steeped in the games details, I'm just reacting to official videos I have seen.

[UnSub]

This is a balance issue how?

Depends on final execution, but the healer that can hide at the back of the group and protect themselves from damage (i.e. cover) is hopefully notably weaker in healing terms than a healer that has to stand out in the open / close to front lines.

[eldaec]

- Dallas Dickinson is a ridiculous name, and he should not be allowed to speak in public

- My god those cutscenes are going to be annoying.

- 24 hotbar slots on the standard UI - promising in that it implies characters get a decent number of abilities.

- Video looks decent, reminds me a lot of CoX missions, and I mean that as a good thing.

[Lakov_Sanite]

No companions = say hello to tank/healer/dps once again.

The more I hear the less ambitious it's all sounding. Right now all it seems to be is wow in space, with quest text you have to listen to.

[Paelos]

Ah, another news item worthy of note: by reading some of the latest Q&A from PAX East, as it stands now, Companions are totally removed from the raid/flashpoint content, you won't be able to summon them. They are currently testing them in PvP environments, no final word on that yet.

This has the potential to ruin a lot of interest in the game.

[Sky]

No companions = say hello to tank/healer/dps once again.

The more I hear the less ambitious it's all sounding. Right now all it seems to be is wow in space, with quest text you have to listen to.

Happened to Rift, too. The wowtards want things brought down to their easy-to-digest formula. Which of course dooms the game to failure, because there already is a wow. Good luck with that.

[Fordel]

Each class has four sub specs, so yes, there will be a DPS smuggler.


There's apparently a healing trooper on top of their tanking and dps builds.

[Paelos]

Each class has four sub specs, so yes, there will be a DPS smuggler.


There's apparently a healing trooper on top of their tanking and dps builds.

Troopers: PALADINS...IN...SPAAAAAAAAACE!

[caladein]

Ah, another news item worthy of note: by reading some of the latest Q&A from PAX East, as it stands now, Companions are totally removed from the raid/flashpoint content, you won't be able to summon them. They are currently testing them in PvP environments, no final word on that yet.

This has the potential to ruin a lot of interest in the game.

It has for me at least.  Choosing what companion to bring for group settings offered the chance for a lot of customization.  Also, makes dialogue wheel-time a lot more boring.

[Paelos]

I had heard from friends who were trying the beta out that companion healing was hilariously overpowered, but I can't confirm that obviously. It would make sense as to why the developers would remove them if that was the case.

[Ingmar]

Yeah no companions in group content is a shame.

[Lantyssa]

Happened to Rift, too. The wowtards want things brought down to their easy-to-digest formula. Which of course dooms the game to failure, because there already is a wow. Good luck with that.

That's what the devs think they want.  What a lot of WoW players really want is convenience.  That does not always translate to over-simplification.

[Malakili]

Happened to Rift, too. The wowtards want things brought down to their easy-to-digest formula. Which of course dooms the game to failure, because there already is a wow. Good luck with that.

That's what the devs think they want.  What a lot of WoW players really want is convenience.  That does not always translate to over-simplification.

It does a lot of the time though.   If things complex enough that it requires time outside the game, that probably rules out a lot of people immediately from caring.

[Chimpy]

I had heard from friends who were trying the beta out that companion healing was hilariously overpowered, but I can't confirm that obviously. It would make sense as to why the developers would remove them if that was the case.

Maybe they should have left it in if it was "overpowered" and balanced the game around something other than the ridiculous DIKU "holy trinity".

As to the whole "devs caving to the wow-easy people" thing: MMO devs all seem to thing that the only other option to that is putting in ridiculous, unimaginative, repetative, dick-in-a-meatgrinder timesinks.

[Margalis]

I thought one of the points of companions is that you could say group with a friend and have companions fill out the rest of the party.

[Paelos]

I thought one of the points of companions is that you could say group with a friend and have companions fill out the rest of the party.

That was the point. The way I heard it was working was that your companions were firing off heals faster and more efficiently than any player could, thus nobody was bothering playing healers.

Again, while this can't be confirmed, I could see the developers being upset that nobody was playing healers at all. And we couldn't have that obviously. A trinity with two legs is a ladder.

[Venkman]

That's easy to balance though.

They might think not going too far afield of WoW is their best option, like a dedicated healer, dedicated tank, and dedicated DPS is as much a part of the genre as 12 key hotbars and increasing leveling curves. Can't say they'd be wrong about that considering the percentage of players in MMOs who've played a game built on that foundation.

No idea what the sub-classing abilities are. They weren't accessible in the demo. Given how same-y the other parts of the game felt, it wouldn't surprise me if they were mere flavors within a class (DPS with fire vs ice, for example) rather than letting people spec to be any of the primary roles at whim.

Who cares if he runs away during a party wipe?

I do, as long as running away means losing aggro (in the demo it did) and includes party rez (not sure who/how has that ability).

[Sky]

MMO devs all seem to thing that the only other option to that is putting in ridiculous, unimaginative, repetative, dick-in-a-meatgrinder timesinks.

What do you mean "other option"?

[Chimpy]

MMO devs all seem to thing that the only other option to that is putting in ridiculous, unimaginative, repetative, dick-in-a-meatgrinder timesinks.

What do you mean "other option"?

Bah, meant alternative.

[Sjofn]

Dear Devs: Hardly anyone will cry if they get to use NPC healers. In fact, make the NPC tanks awesome too. I like doing both roles, but it would be really refreshing to just faceroll a DPSer for once (Ing and I teeeend to be a tank/healer pair, because it means we can add any ol' DPSer, tard or not, to our group without having to wait for a tank or healer).

Really what this will do is make it so I merrily solo the whole time, then quit when I get bored because I've not talked to anyone the entire time so there's nothing social to keep me.

[Sky]

MMO devs all seem to thing that the only other option to that is putting in ridiculous, unimaginative, repetative, dick-in-a-meatgrinder timesinks.

What do you mean "other option"?

Bah, meant alternative.

What alternative? 

See where I'm going there? What game doesn't put in ridiculous, unimaginative, repetitive, dick-grinding timesinks? It's usually even worse for solo players, a raid guild can just meet up and hit a dungeon for loot pinatas and in something like Rift you have to grind for hours for tokens, grind for faction, grind grind grind. You know we're in Bat Country when RAIDING is actually more casual gameplay than SOLOING.

Srsly.

[Reg]

It's crucial that the devs devote all of their time and money to replacing every single one of the standard MMO dynamics that the ginormous pool of WoW burnout cases might find dull.  Anything less results in an epic failure.

[Mrbloodworth]

amen!

[Malakili]

Bah, meant alternative.

What alternative?  

See where I'm going there? What game doesn't put in ridiculous, unimaginative, repetitive, dick-grinding timesinks? It's usually even worse for solo players, a raid guild can just meet up and hit a dungeon for loot pinatas and in something like Rift you have to grind for hours for tokens, grind for faction, grind grind grind. You know we're in Bat Country when RAIDING is actually more casual gameplay than SOLOING.

Srsly.

Raiding doesn't really require loads of time anymore from what I can tell. What matters is *scheduled* time.  I think my guild raids 12 hours a week, 7:30 - 10:30 T, W, TR, SUN.  All that matters is that they can raid during those specific times and then tack on maybe 5 hours or less a week for whatever money making activity they want to support their consumbles and repairs costs.   I suppose they also need to spend time out of the game reading up on fights and maybe watching a video here or there.

My point is, there are tons of "casual" players who put in more time than that, its just that their schedules are not so consistent, or they simply don't want to schedule things around their video game playing time.  Thats totally reasonable, but it seems to me that with perhaps the exception of those guilds really going for high end top progression type play, time doesn't seem to be the limiting factor in and of itself.

edit: botched quote tags

[Koyasha]

I've always considered that pretty much a bullshit excuse, when we're talking about 1-2 hour raid windows.  A guild CAN raid for 2-4 hours a week and make progress (at least in wow with extendable lockout timers, which I imagine will probably become standard for other games at some point).  There's a vast majority of people who are willing to do something on a particular time/day, even something as simple as watching a particular TV show at a certain time every day (yes, before DVR's, people used to plan to be sitting in front of the TV at a particular time each week!) so anyone who claims they can't schedule 1-2 hours once or twice a week may as well just say "no, I don't want to raid" and cut the excuses, because that's what it amounts to.  

Plus, it's entirely possible for a guild to raid at particular times without each individual person showing up at that time.  Guild raids from say, 7-11, if you're online and want to come you're considered just as much as anyone else.  10 minute break every hour and people can freely leave/arrive during the breaks.  You don't have to show up at all, the only thing you need is to be able to say 'I'm gonna play for the next hour' if you're online and want to go at raid time.

Although me, I think I'm just tired of raids and don't want to anymore.  At least not the way they are now.  I can't really put my finger on why, but I look and just shrug my shoulders and go 'meh' even though back in EQ during Velious, Luclin, Planes of Power, as well as from Omens of War to about Prophecy of Ro I was all fired up about it.  Either the raids have changed or I have, but I don't really want to anymore for the most part.  But I don't feel the need to claim I don't have time, or can't schedule raids.  Let me put it this way: If an on-duty fireman can be one of the main healers and tanks of one of my old EQ guilds, then I'm pretty sure 'scheduling' isn't that big a deal.

[Malakili]

I don't particularly disagree, I don't care to raid anymore because...well I've simply been there and done that and it doesn't interest me much.  I couldn't reasonably if I wanted to anyway, but thats a separate issue.

I think the social stigma matters though.  If you say "Oh, man sorry I can't hang out tonight, we're watching (Whatever show)" its a lot more reasonable to most people than "Oh man, sorry I can't hang out tonight, I'm playing video games."   Maybe I'm overestimating that.

[eldaec]

The way I look at this game right now, is that they are choosing to distinguish themselves from the straight eq model with their story and heavily scripted mission system - so I can forgive derivative combat. If everyone at least aimed for one clear way to differentiate, we'd be a lot better off, and I'm cautiously interested just because they are trying something.

Doesn't sound like it'll be a long term game like eve or uo, but if its the first diku worth giving a few months to since cox and eq2 then that's not exactly a disaster.

[Sky]

I think the social stigma matters though.  If you say "Oh, man sorry I can't hang out tonight, we're watching (Whatever show)" its a lot more reasonable to most people than "Oh man, sorry I can't hang out tonight, I'm playing video games."   Maybe I'm overestimating that.

It's not social stigma in my case, I have no such animal :) For me the important part of that quote is "WE'RE". As in, my fiancee and me. I've got all the time in the world for her, but the amount of time I have for you jackanapes is pretty limited, and time for random internet tards is nigh non-existant. Even Blood Bowl works because it's a shifting match every week, worked out between only two people for an hour.

To use Koyaha's example, if a guild raids 7-11, that means I will never raid with them. Because I have an hour a night I can reliably say I could be online, because literally everything in life takes priority over gaming. I like gaming, but I don't see why I need to make it a priority over real-life activities to accomplish anything. It's a ludicrous idea driven by these trolls who feel the stuff they 'earn' is somehow diminished if I can actually get the same loots. The entire idea of forced raiding and grouping is bizarre to me. If you enjoy raiding, raid. If you enjoy grouping, group. If you don't, well fuck off, enjoy your peasant hat, 3rd class citizen. Dead horse, but after all this time it still boggles the mind that people equate mmo with 'must group' rather than 'shared online world'.