SWTOR

[Sheepherder]

Copycat beacons on your guys and some of those small probe droids to sniff out beacon codes. 

Encryption is easier to make than break.

[Sky]

I reserve the right to laugh at you when someone spots "Drizzzzt do'vader" in game.

My favorite (self) quote from Rift beta: "What are the chances the first person I'd use /ignore on would be named Drizzt?"

[Typhon]

Oh, and grenades do work well against them assuming they don't catch them with the force and chuck them back.

A small coded beacon on the soldier(s) and a microprocessor controlled igniter would easily fix that.

These arguments always seem very lacking to me.  If your weapon tech is a moving target, than the Jedi/Sith weapon tech is a moving target. 

And that is where you just cannot win.  They have access to all the forms of intel which you have, AND they have better spies and other (magic!) forms of intel that you do not have.  This ALWAYS put them ahead of you in the arms race.  And if that wasn't bad enough, they are also mind controlling your scientists into doing things like inserting a back door into your grenades such that after they send a code, the grenades ONLY go off when they are near you.

On a tactical level you can come up with some weapons that they can't dodge around.  On a strategic level they just kick the living shit out of you and there is nothing you can do about it except to agree to stick to the approved list of weapon types.

[Simond]

"There's rumoured to be a jedi on that planet"
"Glass it"

 

[Typhon]

Lol, 

[Fordel]

Oh, and grenades do work well against them assuming they don't catch them with the force and chuck them back.

A small coded beacon on the soldier(s) and a microprocessor controlled igniter would easily fix that.

These arguments always seem very lacking to me.  If your weapon tech is a moving target, than the Jedi/Sith weapon tech is a moving target. 

And that is where you just cannot win.  They have access to all the forms of intel which you have, AND they have better spies and other (magic!) forms of intel that you do not have.  This ALWAYS put them ahead of you in the arms race.  And if that wasn't bad enough, they are also mind controlling your scientists into doing things like inserting a back door into your grenades such that after they send a code, the grenades ONLY go off when they are near you.

On a tactical level you can come up with some weapons that they can't dodge around.  On a strategic level they just kick the living shit out of you and there is nothing you can do about it except to agree to stick to the approved list of weapon types.

Isn't that the point of Lightsabres, that they aren't a 'moving target' and that the Jedi have been using them for 10,000 years?

[Ratman_tf]

And that is where you just cannot win.  They have access to all the forms of intel which you have, AND they have better spies and other (magic!) forms of intel that you do not have.  This ALWAYS put them ahead of you in the arms race.  And if that wasn't bad enough, they are also mind controlling your scientists into doing things like inserting a back door into your grenades such that after they send a code, the grenades ONLY go off when they are near you.

On a tactical level you can come up with some weapons that they can't dodge around.  On a strategic level they just kick the living shit out of you and there is nothing you can do about it except to agree to stick to the approved list of weapon types.

I think people overestimate the abilities of the Jedi. What's shown in the movies is hardly the jugernaut of powers and abilities that they're sometimes made out to be.

Look at Obi-Wan at Kamino, he didn't just waltz in, Force-Mindread everyone and then lightning blast Jango Fett. He had to do a lot of it the old-fashoined way. Pretending to be dumb and asking a lot of questions, and then got in a tussle with Jango and got kicked around.

Jedi have a big advantage, no doubt, but they're not gods.

[Sheepherder]

These arguments always seem very lacking to me.  If your weapon tech is a moving target, than the Jedi/Sith weapon tech is a moving target. 

And that is where you just cannot win.  They have access to all the forms of intel which you have, AND they have better spies and other (magic!) forms of intel that you do not have.  This ALWAYS put them ahead of you in the arms race.  And if that wasn't bad enough, they are also mind controlling your scientists into doing things like inserting a back door into your grenades such that after they send a code, the grenades ONLY go off when they are near you.

They are Luddites.  Also, I can just imagine that conversation:

"So, how are the efforts to mind control and interrogate everyone in the star system on the off-chance they're plotting against us going?  How many are scheming against us?"
"All of them."
"Huh, I guess we didn't think that one through."

[Koyasha]

Isn't that the point of Lightsabres, that they aren't a 'moving target' and that the Jedi have been using them for 10,000 years?

Technology in the Star Wars universe appears to have been at a complete standstill in all fields for at least four or five millenia, if not for the entire history of the Galactic Republic.  Of course, maybe this seems different when considering a lot of other sources like the novels and such, but just from what I've seen (basically, the movies and KOTOR) the technology used 4,000 years BBY is indistinguishable from that used on board the Death Star.  In every field, not just one particular thing or another.

[Ingmar]

Technology is at a complete standstill because Star Wars is not science fiction, it is fantasy. Lack of realistic technological advancement over time is one of those core fantasy tropes, albeit one that doesn't often get discussed.

[UnSub]

Technology is at a complete standstill because Star Wars is not science fiction, it is fantasy. Lack of realistic technological advancement over time is one of those core fantasy tropes, albeit one that doesn't often get discussed.

It is also because the films are set at the end of the Age of Jedi, before they go into the West and are replaced by the Age of Man.

[Kageru]

Games that are a combination of magic and science are always broken. Because one is expected to be internally consistent and the other gets a free pass. Remember coming to that conclusion playing shadow-run.

And for those who are going to argue the force has some internal limits that create balance I'll look forward to you explaining why being able to use the force to crash a star destroyer (Force unleashed) seems reasonable.

[Fordel]

Technology is at a complete standstill because Star Wars is not science fiction, it is fantasy. Lack of realistic technological advancement over time is one of those core fantasy tropes, albeit one that doesn't often get discussed.

Does that make Eberron Science Fiction then? Their magic is internally consistent and is progressing like technology would.

[Ingmar]

Technology is at a complete standstill because Star Wars is not science fiction, it is fantasy. Lack of realistic technological advancement over time is one of those core fantasy tropes, albeit one that doesn't often get discussed.

Does that make Eberron Science Fiction then? Their magic is internally consistent and is progressing like technology would.

Well, that's not the only trope that makes something fantasy (Eberron still has, you know, wizards) but it is definitely harder sci-fi than Star Wars is.

[Sheepherder]

And for those who are going to argue the force has some internal limits that create balance I'll look forward to you explaining why being able to use the force to crash a star destroyer (Force unleashed) seems reasonable.

Star Wars canon.  You can get as fanfic as you like, but nobody is compelled to pay any fucking attention whatsoever to it in their own fanfic.  The rule is pretty much Movies > TV > All the other shit.

Plus, rule of cool.

[Tannhauser]

Because "size matters not".  There is no difference in the Force to move a rock or a star destroyer.

At least that was my take on it.

[Trippy]

That ship is fucking pants on head stupid.  Like some asshat passed off his son's artwork stolen off the fridge at home as his own concept art, and instead of backhanding him for submitting this shit they put it into production.

The Star Wars universe has always had ridiculously designed ships. Even the Millennium Falcon is a fucked up design where you can't see shit out of the left side of the cockpit windows. And Tie Fighters are even fucking worse than that.

[Tannhauser]

That's why so many TIE fighters are shot down, they can't see left or right.

(But all the ships still look shit hot to me years later)

[Trippy]

Yeah at least some of the designs in the early movies looked cool. Then you started get shit like the B-Wing. The BT-7 design linked earlier looks like an early version of that. So basically it fits perfectly in the Star Wars universe of starships.

[Koyasha]

Because "size matters not".  There is no difference in the Force to move a rock or a star destroyer.

At least that was my take on it.

Well, size isn't even the issue here though.  Even if we say that size doesn't matter as far as moving it with the force, what about all that thrust the star destroyer is producing?  If size really doesn't matter, and neither does the velocity or thrust the object has and so on, then doesn't that mean that any old force user can just grab an entire planet and chuck it any which way they want, since neither its size nor its current velocity and momentum is going to prevent it?

Star Wars force stuff really has no internal consistency or rules.  It just does whatever is cool at the moment.  Which really hurts it in my opinion, because I do expect my magic to be internally consistent.  Whether it's magic or science, it's best if you establish a general 'this is what you can do with it' set of rules and stick to them.

[Sheepherder]

Because "size matters not".  There is no difference in the Force to move a rock or a star destroyer.

At least that was my take on it.

Well, size isn't even the issue here though.  Even if we say that size doesn't matter as far as moving it with the force, what about all that thrust the star destroyer is producing?  If size really doesn't matter, and neither does the velocity or thrust the object has and so on, then doesn't that mean that any old force user can just grab an entire planet and chuck it any which way they want, since neither its size nor its current velocity and momentum is going to prevent it?

Star Wars force stuff really has no internal consistency or rules.  It just does whatever is cool at the moment.  Which really hurts it in my opinion, because I do expect my magic to be internally consistent.  Whether it's magic or science, it's best if you establish a general 'this is what you can do with it' set of rules and stick to them.

Size matters not.  Psychosomaticism does.  That's why Jedi stack Wisdom and have really low Charisma scores.

The Star Wars universe has always had ridiculously designed ships. Even the Millennium Falcon is a fucked up design where you can't see shit out of the left side of the cockpit windows. And Tie Fighters are even fucking worse than that.

The Falcon was supposed to look like a flying shitheap.  It does.  Score one for Lucas.

TIE fighters are supposed to give the impression of a space age Mitsubishi A6M Zero.  Which they do, because it looks like something you could break with a well-placed kick.  The side panels are kind of funky, but biplanes and triplanes suffered the same problems, except in the real world above and below count massively in air battles.  In space, with sensors, being able to see in any direction matters not so much.

A brick shaped space landing-craft with it's centre of gravity massively off is just fucking clownshoes.  It has to be able to land in atmospheric conditions, easily, without killing all of it's passengers.  Which off-kilter bricks just don't do.  In addition to breaking the rule of cool.

[Trippy]

TIE fighters are supposed to give the impression of a space age Mitsubishi A6M Zero.  Which they do, because it looks like something you could break with a well-placed kick.  The side panels are kind of funky, but biplanes and triplanes suffered the same problems, except in the real world above and below count massively in air battles.  In space, with sensors, being able to see in any direction matters not so much.

The side panels on a Tie Fighter are actually solar panels, so their size and shape at least make some sense (though not necessarily their placement and orientation). Fighter pilots in Star Wars do need to look around though -- watch the Death Star battle again.

[Sheepherder]

I love you Trippy.

[Trippy]

[Sheepherder]

Of course, if any of those things were true, there was no way for Vader to know. One thing he should have realized though: TIE fighters are being sent out en masse to intercept the Rebels and this guy was standing around in the hallway. Vader, we think they left him behind for a reason.

I love that line especially.

[Sky]

 In space, with sensors, being able to see in any direction matters not so much.

Should we even bother with stellar luminosity at this point?

[Nebu]

 In space, with sensors, being able to see in any direction matters not so much.

Should we even bother with stellar luminosity at this point?

I want to discuss the role of aerodynamics in space!

[Murgos]

I want to discuss the role of aerodynamics in space!

Air has about 10^25 atoms per m^3.  Space is on the order of 'a few' atoms per m^3.  If you made a 747 but ~10^25 times larger and accelerated it forward would it then be able to get lift in space?

Would that mean it can only fly in loops?
 

[Paelos]

My god, this may be the dumbest thread that's ever proliferated in such magnitude.

[Samprimary]

star wars plus pedantry! it's a match made in hell!

[Lakov_Sanite]

Star wars is pretty much a stupid magnet.

[Typhon]

Which doesn't make that much sense to me, the Trekkies seem more unstable than the Star Wars folks (do they have a nickname?).  Maybe I just have never seen a Star Trek slap fight.

[Lantyssa]

Star Trek tries to pretend it's based on science instead of being fantasy in space.  Things get more weird when you try to explain magic with science.

[Ingmar]

Star Trek fights are basically the same thing but you fall asleep faster listening to it.

[Sheepherder]

I want to discuss the role of aerodynamics in space!

Air has about 10^25 atoms per m^3.  Space is on the order of 'a few' atoms per m^3.  If you made a DC-8 but ~10^25 times larger and accelerated it forward would it then be able to get lift in space?

 

Star Trek tries to pretend it's based on science instead of being fantasy in space.  Things get more weird when you try to explain magic with science.

It's usually easier just to state that something looks cool, or doesn't.  TIE fighters look cool, brick ship doesn't.