SWTOR

[DraconianOne]

I think the prequels did a good job...

I almost had to stop reading at this point but I perservered in the sake of giving you a fair hearing.

There's an interesting little strip in the Star Wars Tales (which isn't even canon in the EU) where somebody explains to a Padawan why the Jedi avoid attachment; the story goes that once upon a time, powerful Jedi twins both fell in love with the same woman and subsequently fell out, starting a feud. The feud was of such a scale that it not only killed the woman they loved but destroyed an entire planet. It's the nearest thing I've read that would adequately explain the whole thing.

That being said, it's still fucking crock of shit and entirely inconsistent with the OT and within the prequels themselves.

[Sjofn]

Part of why I liked Jolee in KotOR was because he called it bullshit. I was all, "Preach it, cranky old dude!"

[LK]

The Jedi represent an extra level of conflict above the normal day-to-day, like superheroes fighting for the plebes. The only logical thing for galactic balance is for all Jedi to be wiped out, on both sides.

[UnSub]

What "hype train?"

The one generated from SWOR being EA's biggest project ever that requires not just one, but at least two Blur videos.

[CmdrSlack]

Passive suggestion rather than violence to get where he's going.

Means justify the ends? Majordomo just trying to do his job and feed his family, Luke mindfucks him, at best he loses his job and goes on welfare, ruining his kid's futures. At worst, into the pit (once they get a new monster, which Luke could of course not find a passive way to avoid...leading to the monster tender's suicide). With dead Jabba, lots of out of work henchmen, too. Good guys win!

This reminds me of this:


Yours takes less time to get to the punchline, however.

[Ashamanchill]

You guys don't realize who the true hero was in the films.  R2D2.

That's right, that little robot saved the universe, with a little help from his meatbag friends.
1.  He saved Padme's ship escaping from Naboo.
2.  He got Anakin's guns online to fight the Trade Federation.
3.  He successfully smuggled the plans to the Death Star to the rebellion AND kept Luke's X-wing running long enough to destroy said Death Star.
4.  Repaired the Falcon just in time to escape Vader.  Note that not even Han could fix the Falcon in time.
And so on.

Star Wars is the story of R2D2 as told through the eyes of the Skywalkers and others.  And what reward does R2 get?  A pat on the head and a hug from a ewok.  God bless you R2, god bless.

Wrong. It was soooooo Lando Calrissian.

[palmer_eldritch]

I was thinking the other day that the most interesting character in the Star Wars films is Senator / Emperor Palpatine. At the bare minimum, he is the most interesting actor to watch (Ian McDiarmid at least looks like he's having fun) and his character actually does stuff as opposed to moping about. He's also the crux of a lot of film events.

Joke post?

Half serious in that McDiarmid is the most entertaining thing in the prequels, half joke in that I want to play at derailing the SWOR thread too.

The first three films are about Palpatine manipulating everybody so that the democracy he is part of becomes a dictatorship with him at the top of it. His character is the only one with an arc that makes any sort of sense.

[Sky]

Anakin is an analog to Henry VIII, with Padme being Anne Boleyn.

[Morat20]

I'm still stuck at Anakin's virgin birth. Whiniest fucking Christ child ever.

Lucas should have revealed that Palpatine raped Shmi and mind-wiped her. Whether just out of being a dickish Sith Lord or some convoluted revenge-scheme wherein he rapes some foe's daughter and sells her amnesiac ass into slavery. You don't even need Anakin to ever know, just have Palpatine mention it in one of his evil monologues.

He could have turned up the Greek tragedy and done something. That would have fucking made Anakin have an actual choice --- to follow his father, or his son. Make Return of the Jedi a choice between which relative he kills.

But no, 'concieved by microscopic shit in the bloodstream'. Apparently they're big enough to carry around a Y chromosome.

[Malakili]

I'm still stuck at Anakin's virgin birth. Whiniest fucking Christ child ever.

Lucas should have revealed that Palpatine raped Shmi and mind-wiped her. Whether just out of being a dickish Sith Lord or some convoluted revenge-scheme wherein he rapes some foe's daughter and sells her amnesiac ass into slavery. You don't even need Anakin to ever know, just have Palpatine mention it in one of his evil monologues.

He could have turned up the Greek tragedy and done something. That would have fucking made Anakin have an actual choice --- to follow his father, or his son. Make Return of the Jedi a choice between which relative he kills.

But no, 'concieved by microscopic shit in the bloodstream'. Apparently they're big enough to carry around a Y chromosome.

I thought perhaps he was conceived during the experiments of Darth Plageus.  He goes on and on about how he learned how to create life...

And Yoda mentions the prophecy could've been misunderstood or something.

Oh fuck, I got drawn into this conversation.

[Morat20]

I thought perhaps he was conceived during the experiments of Darth Plageus.  He goes on and on about how he learned how to create life...

And Yoda mentions the prophecy could've been misunderstood or something.

Oh fuck, I got drawn into this conversation.

I thought about that. And then I realized that would have required a subtle inference, and Lucas and "subtle" are not words that go together.

[Paelos]

Lucas and "subtle" are not words that go together.

He also doesn't like sand...

[Ratman_tf]

I think Lucas was subtle... as far as action space opera movies go, in the first trilogy. The prequels as a whole, I think, and despite his facade of "They're only movies!" is Lucas buying into the SW nerddom, with a dash of loathing of that same nerddom. It was a pretty toxic stew. Maybe Anakin/Vader was a symbol of his own self-loathing over the franchise? Man, I always want to give the guy more credit than he's due over my fondness for the original trilogy. 

[LK]

You can theorize all you want but until the man tells you what he's thinking (and even then, is he speaking honestly? Is he a reliable narrator of himself?) you'll never know the truth. History will be the ultimate judge of his actions, regardless of his intent. Maybe he wants to tell a good story, but maybe he wants to leverage that I.P. to its maximum in order to help improve an industry he saw as flawed and on a bad path.

Considering everything that happened as a result of Star Wars, I'd like to think he made some pretty damn good choices, and I'm not talking the personal wealth he acquired.

[Samprimary]

all the theorizing I do about the star wars franchise is to think about how cool it was and how many wicked awesome things it had going for it and all its iconic super awesome space stuff and laser swords that just worked and why that could turn into the prequels, movies bad enough that watching them was like having some sort of h.r. geiger monster made entirely out of claw hammers, nettles, and wasp stingers violently trying to escape from inside my brain

[LK]

There is that too. :P

[Riggswolfe]

A "true" Jedi would walk a balanced path, using only what is necessary to accomplish that balance, and seeking only enough power to help restore it. In order to maintain neutrality, they must have the wisdom and the resolve to introduce themselves only when necessary, and to remove themselves at the proper time. This is far more difficult than the two extremes. I imagine it's a nightmare to write too. The Jedi that embodies this would need to be a walking Deus Ex Machina with an omnipotent knowledge of the future and what's necessary to achieve that. Which would make them... boring?

I imagine this has been explored in one of the EU's?

I see a lot of these themes popping up in Tron: Legacy too.

It has been explored. And it  led to the Jedi in question becoming a Sith lord and killing many people, including some of his own relatives before he, himself, was finally killed by his own sister. According to the mythology of Star Wars that is pretty much the only result of this kind of thing. The best analogy I can think of for the Force comes from, of all things, the Karate Kid.

Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: Yeah, I guess so.
Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk.
[they both kneel]
Miyagi: Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later
[makes squish gesture]
Miyagi: get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so,"
[makes squish gesture]
Miyagi: just like grape. Understand?
Daniel: Yeah, I understand.
Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: Yeah, I'm ready.

So, to put it in Star Wars terms:

With the force it's all about the two extremes. If you want to stay Light side, you have to go fully light. If you try to be balanced or "grey" you end up falling to the Dark Side. As for the attachment stuff that comes up alot, it took me awhile to wrap my head around since it's more of an Eastern concept but Anakin's whole fall comes about because of attachments.

[Triforcer]

According to the movies, Anakin`s fall happened for basically no reason around various laser battles and may have vaguely involved a woman he had zero chemistry with. 

[LK]

So, to put it in Star Wars terms:

With the force it's all about the two extremes. If you want to stay Light side, you have to go fully light. If you try to be balanced or "grey" you end up falling to the Dark Side. As for the attachment stuff that comes up alot, it took me awhile to wrap my head around since it's more of an Eastern concept but Anakin's whole fall comes about because of attachments.

People *feel* strongest when they don't have to think and stick to a rigid philosophy. You can walk left, or you could walk right. But it's not impossible to walk in the middle... just a LOT harder to do right because you have to *really think about what you're doing with every decision point.* Doubt and indecision may result, which allows you to be overtaken by someone of a more rigid philosophy who is quicker to act and assert their power. Doubt and indecision can paralyze you because no human is all-wise to make the correction decisions for "balance". Being all-wise? That'd be GOOD. But out of reach for most. With an extreme, the answers are always there for you if you go Black or White. But you also become victim to the fallacies and cons of your position. You have to be willing to compromise your position when you know and understand that it's the best choice between what's logical and what's moral.

If a grey fell to the Dark Side, it's because he failed at controlling his emotions. If he fell (rose?) to the Light, it's because he opted not to control his emotions but remove them from the decision process. Neither is good or evil: it's relative. I think it's more likely someone falls to the Dark Side because it's harder to control emotions than it is the self. Logical thinking is far, far easier for humans than intuition, which would be the basis of emotion.

Whether they are Light or Dark is a conscious decision they make. Emotions are the modifier on the decision making process. Someone who was rigidly neutral would have control over emotions & the self. Control of self (to remove emotions) or lack of control of emotions are the two extremes of Light and Dark. Someone walking the middle can't be a justifiable enemy to either side because part of them *agrees with their opponent's position.* Good hero / enemy relationships in a conflict are ones in which the two forces are diametrically opposed and unwilling to compromise. The drama comes from pointing out the fallacies and the hero / enemy's struggle with what they believe to be "right."

Also, Anakin's fall was such a bitchy thing because emotions / intuition tend to be associated as a feminine trait, and nerds wanted a strong, masculine, logical hero who could do no wrong and was always right because of his logic (Male Bravado). He lost control of his emotions and appeared very feminine... because he was being an emotional wreck, which culture perceives as: he was a little bitch.

[ghost]

I'm still stuck at Anakin's virgin birth. Whiniest fucking Christ child ever.

Lucas should have revealed that Palpatine raped Shmi and mind-wiped her. Whether just out of being a dickish Sith Lord or some convoluted revenge-scheme wherein he rapes some foe's daughter and sells her amnesiac ass into slavery. You don't even need Anakin to ever know, just have Palpatine mention it in one of his evil monologues.

He could have turned up the Greek tragedy and done something. That would have fucking made Anakin have an actual choice --- to follow his father, or his son. Make Return of the Jedi a choice between which relative he kills.

But no, 'concieved by microscopic shit in the bloodstream'. Apparently they're big enough to carry around a Y chromosome.

Shmi looked like she had a rough life.  She probably got knocked up after some all night death stick bender and just doesn't remember it. 

[DraconianOne]

... Anakin's whole fall comes about because of attachments.

So did his redemption - thereby showing that millennia of Jedi teachings (aka the prequels) were a load of cock.

[LK]

Actually, yeah.

I'm not sure how the philosophies played out in the EU. I'd be interested in seeing if the writers kept Luke to a more nuanced philosophy or if he just kept doing rigid Light Jedi teachings.

That's why I found Kyle Katarn to be more interesting. The dude was in a constant struggle and walked both paths.

[stu]

I disliked Anakin because he was an insolent and jealous douche. Thank Christ they replaced him with Vader.

[Lakov_Sanite]

This thread needs to be nuked from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

[Tarami]

I disliked Anakin because he was an insolent and jealous douche. Thank Christ they replaced him with Vader.

Edit: I regret that. No more gas on this fire.

[Riggswolfe]

Whether they are Light or Dark is a conscious decision they make. Emotions are the modifier on the decision making process. Someone who was rigidly neutral would have control over emotions & the self. Control of self (to remove emotions) or lack of control of emotions are the two extremes of Light and Dark. Someone walking the middle can't be a justifiable enemy to either side because part of them *agrees with their opponent's position.* Good hero / enemy relationships in a conflict are ones in which the two forces are diametrically opposed and unwilling to compromise. The drama comes from pointing out the fallacies and the hero / enemy's struggle with what they believe to be "right."

The only problem with this, and I didn't explain myself well earlier, is that in the Force there is no grey. You're light or dark. If you try to walk the middle path you're almost guranteed to fall to the dark. It takes awhile and is a series of small steps and self justifications but it happens. The force isn't meant to be nuanced. It's good or evil, light or dark by design. That's not to say that Star Wars has no grey, it does, but not among force users. A few authors have tried to sneak it in but it almost always gets retconned with the grey force user falling to evil.

... Anakin's whole fall comes about because of attachments.

So did his redemption - thereby showing that millennia of Jedi teachings (aka the prequels) were a load of cock.

While this is true you have to look at the two options:

1) Anakin is able to let go of attachments. He kills/arrests Palpatine. The Republic continues. The Jedi survive.
2) He is unable to let go. The Republic falls. The Jedi are exterminated. Alderaan is destroyed. Many innocents are killed over a period of roughly 20 years before he finally turns on Palpatine.

Of course, Anakin's biggest failure isn't that he has attachments. It's that he may be the biggest moron to ever wield a lightsaber. You find out the guy who is your friend is a Sith Lord. He's also in charge of the Republic and has been telling you about Sith teachings that can save your wife but to learn them you have to kill a bunch of people including kids. Oh, and the person leading the other side of the war is this guy's apprentice. Hmmm..you have two options, become a murderer and betrayer or stick your lightsaber through the old dude, or at least don't lop off Mace's arm when he goes to do it.

Oh, and even worse, you just helped him kill Mace and what does he say "Yeah, about that power that can save your wife? I don't know it but I bet we can learn it after you kill children and gurantee she'll hate you!" Do you A) salvage what you can and stick a lightsaber in his chest or B) go "yes Master". If you say B, you're Anakin.

[stu]

His attachments screw him, but Anakin's biggest failure is that he's a weak-minded liar. He lies to everyone important to him. His own deceit is what gets used against him, enabling greater lies.

[LK]

Anakin had no free will. Nobody in a movie does. His destiny was determined by the story that Lucas wanted to tell.

Everything we see is trying to make it a believable progression and seem that he chose everything he chose.

THAT'S the power of the Force.

[Margalis]

... Anakin's whole fall comes about because of attachments a nonsensical 2-minute montage.

[WindupAtheist]

Fucking Star Wars nerds. 

Seriously, long-winded essays about the nature of the Force, and teary-eyed diatribes about how Phantom Menace dragging in the middle and having too much kiddy shit hurt your little vaginas like a thousand meth-addled hornets?

We're this close to a Youtube video of one of you guys leaping around waving a mop handle. Go back to talking about how many dicks this game will suck.

[Ratman_tf]

... Anakin's whole fall comes about because of attachments.

So did his redemption - thereby showing that millennia of Jedi teachings (aka the prequels) were a load of cock.

Bullshit. Luke defeated the Emperor because he didn't rise to the bait. He saved his father on his own terms. If his goal was to save his father, he probably would have killed the Emperor and dragged the old man out by his ear. But he didn't. He gave his father the choice. And that's what saved him.
The Jedi teachings were against unhealthy attachments. Lucas anviled that shit at the end of Sith where Anakin turned into a wife beater. Yoda himself had "Warm feelings" for Padme. He was fond of the young Jedi children students, and felt bad when Anakin started fucking up, and how it affected Obi-Wan. These are not the responses of someone who is not attached at all.

[Sheepherder]

In IV he doesn't seem to have a problem with being overly clingy.  He goes straight from whiny bitch to The Dark Knight, for no apparent fucking reason.  Trying to reconcile the prequel to the original three doesn't really work as by IV the only thing he's attached to is death by strangulation and being the biggest fucking dick in the galaxy.  An extralegal attempt made by The Batman Vader to force order upon Gotham city the Galactic Republic after the realization that the police Jedi are totally incompetent chucklefucks when they failed to save his parents wife would make infinitely more sense, and therefore wasn't the plot of III.

[Murgos]

This thread needs to be nuked from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

It's gone viral.  There's not really anything alive here to kill, nuking it will just cause it to lay dormant until the next evolution of life, when it will spring from the ground to infect yet another life form via the rashy skin hidden under their neck beards.

[Cyrrex]

Fucking Star Wars nerds. 

Seriously, long-winded essays about the nature of the Force, and teary-eyed diatribes about how Phantom Menace dragging in the middle and having too much kiddy shit hurt your little vaginas like a thousand meth-addled hornets?

We're this close to a Youtube video of one of you guys leaping around waving a mop handle. Go back to talking about how many dicks this game will suck.

 

[Modern Angel]

Well having read all this I don't think the game's going to lack subs no matter how terrible it is.