SWTOR

[Sjofn]

I'm also not really convinced people are sick of the gameplay of WoW. The people who still play, most of the complaining I hear (because they're almost all saying they're waiting for SWTOR to bail) is that the story sucks, they are bored (because they have been playing the game FOREVER by this point), and all their friends left.

I think the big thing SWTOR needs to do, and I do not know if they will be able to do it, is churn out new interesting shit to do. Not drop ten new dailies and call it a day. I know basically everyone develops shit faster than Blizzard ... but Bioware (yes, yes, Bioware AUSTIN) is pretty fucking slow too.

[Viin]

It's really too bad they stuck to the many-many-many servers approach. I'd like to see someone try a single server or one for each ruleset and then just use instances within the game to divvy up the resources. They already do this for a lot of zones, why not just extend it?

[Sjofn]

Maybe it's because I haven't played on a virtually dead server since DAOC, but I really don't see why that is attractive in the least. My WoW servers are crowded enough, the last thing I need is to share a server with a million people, 500,000 of which are listing 500 single crafting components.

[Viin]

Maybe it's because I haven't played on a virtually dead server since DAOC, but I really don't see why that is attractive in the least. My WoW servers are crowded enough, the last thing I need is to share a server with a million people, 500,000 of which are listing 500 single crafting components.

Heh, good point on the AH. I am use to Eve where the AH is an amazingly good set of tools to find what you want. And it's location specific: even though you can look at AHs in other areas remotely, you still have to go to that area to pick it up.

I'm just tired of having to start over and switch to a new server if I want to start playing with a friend of mine, losing all of my new contacts in the process.

[Nebu]

I enjoy playing on dead servers.  I prefer to be self sufficient and the less competition for raw materials, the better.  It also makes the "kill 10 rats" quests easier as I don't have to compete with 100 people for rat spawns.  The only downside is that it makes grouping and pvp a bit more challenging, but I tend to only group with friends anyway. 

[eldaec]

If swtor takes 3M subs, that would make it significantly *more* successful than WoW in the west.

I still think 1M is a more reasonable target.

[Ratman_tf]

I'm also not really convinced people are sick of the gameplay of WoW. The people who still play, most of the complaining I hear (because they're almost all saying they're waiting for SWTOR to bail) is that the story sucks, they are bored (because they have been playing the game FOREVER by this point), and all their friends left.

I think a lot of people have trouble articulating. They may be turned off by something esoteric like the mouse acceleration curve in a game, but they don't even realize it. All they know is "The game sucks!" maybe if they're insightful, you might get "The controls suck!", once in a blue moon you get someone who realizes exactly what's going on, and can put it into words. "The mouse feels funny!" In that line of thought, maybe people are tired of WoW, but are just complaining about random shit to have something to point at.

I think the big thing SWTOR needs to do, and I do not know if they will be able to do it, is churn out new interesting shit to do. Not drop ten new dailies and call it a day. I know basically everyone develops shit faster than Blizzard ... but Bioware (yes, yes, Bioware AUSTIN) is pretty fucking slow too.

The problem is, good, fun, well thought out and implemented gameplay mechanisms are pretty rare. It's damn easy to reskin a quest, and game players have voracious appetites for content. Blizzard, one of the big dogs in the industry, has had it's flops. Vehicle combat in Wrath, anyone?

[Draegan]

If swtor takes 3M subs, that would make it significantly *more* successful than WoW in the west.

I still think 1M is a more reasonable target.

They most likely have 1M in pre-orders alone.  I would predict that the game will hit 2 million pretty quickly (months not weeks), no idea on staying power though.

[Nebu]

They most likely have 1M in pre-orders alone.  I would predict that the game will hit 2 million pretty quickly (months not weeks), no idea on staying power though.

If WAR and Rift sold 1 million boxes, I have to agree with Draegan here (yes, I'm shocked too!).  I also agree that staying power may be an issue.  Rift was a very well crafted WoW clone and it can't seem to hold people like MMO's in the past.  I doubt we'll ever see the kind of patience and loyalty we saw with WoW ever again.  Gamers want a steady flow of content if they're going to be asked to pay a subscription fee.  If the delivery of content comes too slow, people will jump ship.

[Rokal]

I think the big thing SWTOR needs to do, and I do not know if they will be able to do it, is churn out new interesting shit to do. Not drop ten new dailies and call it a day. I know basically everyone develops shit faster than Blizzard ... but Bioware (yes, yes, Bioware AUSTIN) is pretty fucking slow too.

Not only is Bioware Austin traditionally slow, the content in SWTOR will take more effort to make than traditional patch content in MMOs like WoW. They have to cover all the content staples that other MMOs do in patch content and make it high quality if they want to be competitive. They also need to record a ton of different voice acting every single time (assuming they want your character to continue to talk, which they did not do with DLC for most of the Dragon Age and Mass Effect). They have to create cutscenes for all those interactions. They have to create branching dialogue, and it's expected that content will have some element of individual choice.

I'd predict they'll have a decent update speed during the first year (a new content patch every 3-4 months maybe), but that update speed dive-bombs after that. I don't expect they'll really be any faster than Blizzard in the long term.

[Sky]

I enjoy playing on dead servers.  I prefer to be self sufficient and the less competition for raw materials, the better.  It also makes the "kill 10 rats" quests easier as I don't have to compete with 100 people for rat spawns.  The only downside is that it makes grouping and pvp a bit more challenging, but I tend to only group with friends anyway.  

I used to, but it's so easy to just hoover up everyone in a region into a group. Except most of the sociopathic folks won't join up, even though it's faster and easier and more fun to clear an area with a group and then all get credit for the boss without waiting for respawn. I lost count of how many groups I made in the weekend I played.

TOR makes me happy I didn't get burned out on WoW, because the traditional mmo mechanics don't bother me much, when it's presented in such a great wrapper.

Not sure I buy the argument about content delivery. WoW was relatively slow at pushing out content, compared to the amount of content EQ2 was (is?) pushing out. On the other hand, Rift is putting out pretty regular updates, as well as the world event stuff, but it doesn't seem to be helping retention.

[Tyrnan]

They most likely have 1M in pre-orders alone.  I would predict that the game will hit 2 million pretty quickly (months not weeks), no idea on staying power though.

If WAR and Rift sold 1 million boxes, I have to agree with Draegan here (yes, I'm shocked too!).  I also agree that staying power may be an issue.  Rift was a very well crafted WoW clone and it can't seem to hold people like MMO's in the past.  I doubt we'll ever see the kind of patience and loyalty we saw with WoW ever again.  Gamers want a steady flow of content if they're going to be asked to pay a subscription fee.  If the delivery of content comes too slow, people will jump ship.

The thing I found with Rift was that while it was a technically excellent game, the world felt incredibly flat and stale which was a huge factor in my not even lasting until the end of month one. From everything I've read about SWTOR it doesn't sound like it'll have that problem. Hell, even if BW fail specifically at crafting a compelling game world (and it's not something I'd expect them to fail at) the fact that it's set in the Star Wars universe will still give it some legs.

[murdoc]

For the first time playing an MMO, I feel like I was part of the story instead of just trying to clear an area. This sold SWtOR on me more than any present or missing gameplay mechanics. It honestly felt like I was part of a Star Wars story and I liked that a LOT.

[Sjofn]

I think the big thing SWTOR needs to do, and I do not know if they will be able to do it, is churn out new interesting shit to do. Not drop ten new dailies and call it a day. I know basically everyone develops shit faster than Blizzard ... but Bioware (yes, yes, Bioware AUSTIN) is pretty fucking slow too.

Not only is Bioware Austin traditionally slow, the content in SWTOR will take more effort to make than traditional patch content in MMOs like WoW. They have to cover all the content staples that other MMOs do in patch content and make it high quality if they want to be competitive. They also need to record a ton of different voice acting every single time (assuming they want your character to continue to talk, which they did not do with DLC for most of the Dragon Age and Mass Effect). They have to create cutscenes for all those interactions. They have to create branching dialogue, and it's expected that content will have some element of individual choice.

I'd predict they'll have a decent update speed during the first year (a new content patch every 3-4 months maybe), but that update speed dive-bombs after that. I don't expect they'll really be any faster than Blizzard in the long term.

The DLC for DA2 has a lot of chatty chat chat, so I'm not hugely worried about that part. But yes, adding content for SWTOR is going to have more shit involved, and that is my biggest cause for concern. It'll take me a while to chew through all eight stories, but not everyone is insane like me, so I hope they have figured out a way to spit out content that doesn't suck at a decent clip.

[Rasix]

I've stopped caring if MMOs last forever.  Of course, when you can only play for max 2 hours a day, your content progression rate is incredibly slow.  So, they last forever anyways. 

[Sjofn]

Well, you've SEEN what I do to Bioware games, so.

[Rasix]

Yes.  Hard to plan for you.  If they can do it.. wow.

[Sjofn]

It's why I'm planning to do all eight classes. Give 'em a sporting chance.

[Nebu]

It's why I'm planning to do all eight classes. Give 'em a sporting chance.

I expect a full review of all 8 within the first month after release! 

[Sjofn]

At least one of my characters will be saddled with Ingmar's, might make it hard to do. 

[Ingmar]

They most likely have 1M in pre-orders alone.  I would predict that the game will hit 2 million pretty quickly (months not weeks), no idea on staying power though.

If WAR and Rift sold 1 million boxes, I have to agree with Draegan here (yes, I'm shocked too!).  I also agree that staying power may be an issue.  Rift was a very well crafted WoW clone and it can't seem to hold people like MMO's in the past.  I doubt we'll ever see the kind of patience and loyalty we saw with WoW ever again.  Gamers want a steady flow of content if they're going to be asked to pay a subscription fee.  If the delivery of content comes too slow, people will jump ship.

Having now played both (Rift and SWTOR) just at the intro 1-10 levels, I really really disagree that there's much of a comparison to be made there at all. Rift was mechanically well crafted but a complete and utter failure at haivng any kind of personality, which is in my opinion its ultimate failure. As derpy and Metzen-y as the lore/story stuff in WoW is, there's a ton of personality and charm in it around every corner. SWTOR has that stuff in spades, right down to the sound effects. I can't say enough about the game presentation-wise (especially if they fix up a couple weaker animations), nor about how the voiced protagonist and the story stuff sets the hook enough to want to see what's coming next, especially the companion stuff.

I can't say personally if there's a Conan-post-Tortuga waiting to happen once you get past level X, but that's not the impression I get from others.

[Sjofn]

Also it sure seems like Rift is spitting out content pretty fast, so I don't think that's the issue for them either. The game just really has no soul (ha ha ha, ahem).

[Evildrider]

I can't say personally if there's a Conan-post-Tortuga waiting to happen once you get past level X, but that's not the impression I get from others.

There isn't.  What you see from level 1-10 goes all the way to 50.

Also it sure seems like Rift is spitting out content pretty fast, so I don't think that's the issue for them either. The game just really has no soul (ha ha ha, ahem).

Rift having the personality of Ben Stein on qualudes was it's downfall.

[Amaron]

Not only is Bioware Austin traditionally slow, the content in SWTOR will take more effort to make than traditional patch content in MMOs like WoW.

The voice acting will make it more expensive but it doesn't really add complexity.    You just hire the voice actors and the scene creators and they do their thing with the tools provided.   If Bioware pulls in a million they just have to throw some money at it.  Activision just made bank on MW3 and proved they could just keep milking that cash cow however long they want.   Yet Activision investors are shitting their pants over WoW losing a million customers.    That's a good reminder these MMO's can make so much profit because they put such a low percentage back into content.   Bioware isn't going to sweat any bullets just because they have to spend a bit more money on content.

[luckton]

T-minus 30 days to head start.

[Rokal]

The voice acting will make it more expensive but it doesn't really add complexity.    You just hire the voice actors and the scene creators and they do their thing with the tools provided.

That's really a lot more effort than you're making it out to be. And yes, it's very expensive. If the game doesn't turn out to be a huge success, EA isn't going to want to invest buckets of money into voice acting for live content updates. The amount of work they have to do to throw in a new 30-quest hub is quite a bit higher when they have to write, hire, coordinate, direct, and record another 800+ lines of dialogue (it adds up fast when you consider 8 different classes/actors with branching dialogue). Not to mention that all of that dialogue is then thrown into scripted cut-scenes with (some?) lip-syncing. Blizzard just throws all that shit in a text box.

The DLC for DA2 has a lot of chatty chat chat, so I'm not hugely worried about that part. But yes, adding content for SWTOR is going to have more shit involved, and that is my biggest cause for concern. It'll take me a while to chew through all eight stories, but not everyone is insane like me, so I hope they have figured out a way to spit out content that doesn't suck at a decent clip.

Why did you buy the DLC for DA2? 

[UnSub]

Not only is Bioware Austin traditionally slow, the content in SWTOR will take more effort to make than traditional patch content in MMOs like WoW.

The voice acting will make it more expensive but it doesn't really add complexity.    You just hire the voice actors and the scene creators and they do their thing with the tools provided. 

But it isn't that simple. You need the right voice actors to come back and continue their parts. You need to organise time for them to do that. And if anything gets changed following exposure on the test server, you have to get them to come back and re-record the lines.

That's the layer of complexity that needs to be considered.

MMOs can make a lot of money, but that's after they pay off their development costs. WoW was the outlier in that it started to gain players and just kept going (and even reports of its demise today tend to ignore that its has been the most successful game in revenue terms ever and for a long time) but I'm not sure that this is the case for SWOR.

Again, I look back to BioWare's own stats that only 50% of players actually finish the games they release. I've no doubt that SWOR is a 2 - 3m unit shifter at launch, but I wonder how many players will hang around for the long term, as they did for WoW. If SWOR sees a 50% churn rate ("Uh, I've forgotten where I am in this story, why am I paying the sub fee again?"), the estimated duration of each sub will be about 2 months.

[Merusk]

Rift - since we're mentioning it - was mechanically brilliant.  It was engaging in a way that DIKU hasn't been for me since WoW started derping things up with the 4.0 patch.

However, the world didn't sell me.  I was bored and I didn't care after getting through the beta.  The quest dialog was dry the characters weren't interesting and the lore wasn't punchy.  It never drew me in and that's what keeps me in a game, even being the DIKU fan that I am.

[Sjofn]

The DLC for DA2 has a lot of chatty chat chat, so I'm not hugely worried about that part. But yes, adding content for SWTOR is going to have more shit involved, and that is my biggest cause for concern. It'll take me a while to chew through all eight stories, but not everyone is insane like me, so I hope they have figured out a way to spit out content that doesn't suck at a decent clip.

Why did you buy the DLC for DA2? 

Because I really liked DA2. A lot. And I wanted more DA2. Which the DLCs provided. Both DLCs are excellent, by the way.

[Amaron]

That's the layer of complexity that needs to be considered.

Yes but it's a separate layer.   It doesn't add that much to the development layer.   It's creating barely any complexity in the software process.  It's expensive as hell I agree.

MMOs can make a lot of money, but that's after they pay off their development costs.

Yea but is that development cost really a big % factor for big name MMO's?  This game doesn't have to be WoW to pull in the motherload.    A million western subs is ~180 million in yearly revenue.

If you look at all the big name VO games they cost like 50~70 mil.  SWTOR has cost a lot more but it's an MMO and has a lot more content than 1 game so far.   Constantly adding new content to an existing engine is happily cheaper than games from scratch at least.  Wild ass guessing makes me skeptical that they will need to spend more than 35 million a year on full updates.

There's plenty of other costs on top of that but even with a billion in revenue Blizzard clearly isn't setting a huge wall to overcome in terms of cost of updates.   The question is how long is Blizzard going to keep under-investing in their own product.

[Rokal]

Because I really liked DA2. A lot.

Oh....

*quits humanity*

[Rasix]

Don't tease us. We aren't that lucky.

[Sjofn]

Because I really liked DA2. A lot.

Oh....

*quits humanity*

Come at me, bro. Let's get this to 400. Me defending DA2's honor is good for a LOT, I am sure.

[Evildrider]

The DLC for DA2 has a lot of chatty chat chat, so I'm not hugely worried about that part. But yes, adding content for SWTOR is going to have more shit involved, and that is my biggest cause for concern. It'll take me a while to chew through all eight stories, but not everyone is insane like me, so I hope they have figured out a way to spit out content that doesn't suck at a decent clip.

Why did you buy the DLC for DA2? 

Because I really liked DA2. A lot. And I wanted more DA2. Which the DLCs provided. Both DLCs are excellent, by the way.

Other than the "I picked the wrong conversation choice and now I'm sleeping with a dude" moments, I had more fun with DA2 than I did with DA: Origins.

[caladein]

They have hearts!