What went wrong.

[ghost]

Eve done better would probably not have the inaccessible appeal that keeps morons out or have the certain strangeness required to appeal to mathspergers/armchair economist types. In other words, it wouldn't be Eve done better, it would be Eve done stupid. Eve is a singular thing and will set it's own glass ceiling, or at least they're hoping it's made of glass. At this point it doesn't matter if they keep trying to appeal to tiny subsets of their playerbase.

Perhaps you're right about that.  Perhaps not.  Honestly, the more I think about it, working in the Eve model is probably kind of like a fractal...change a small bit of your base design and you could have massive repercussions in the end.  Very hard to guess what will happen when players are your content, your systems of gameplay enabling them.  Point is, who knows? 

Maybe I'm wrong about that.  Maybe player-based content and player-system interaction are easy to predict.  Right now I'm think otherwise though, and I would at least argue that we don't have enough data points to make a conclusion.

That's a big derail, so I'm going to be crazy and try to relate it to the discussion at hand.  Eve was not very predictable at first, but at this point has balanced out.  It still relies on player zeitgeist, metagame forum warrioring, etc, and I think none of us would be shocked to see Eve all of the sudden lose half of their population due simply to their model.  WoW is extremely predictable, probably more predictable in what exactly the players will do than any MMORPG out there before it, and this sort of predictability allowed the designer to make the perfect skinner box.  WoW is never going to lose tons of players quickly unless they really fuck up.

WAR has a problem because WoW has the whole predictable MMO gameplay thing thoroughly owned.  Ex-WoW players probably aren't looking for the same amount of predictability.  So WAR went with a hybrid between player-based content, (although ala DAOC not EVE) and WoW solo-ease (scenarios and WoW PvE questing).  But the player-as-content model can then crumble in horrific fashion if the systems are off.  Especially in WAR when you are trying to balance between half-assed WoW rip off game play and this player-based model.  In WAR, there is clearly a problem of incentive and player conditioning.  If your content is based on player interaction, you simply don't have the time to wait and see if you are a developer, If your system fails it can fail catastrophically.  When the players have the option between solo gameplay and a terrible inter-player experience, which will they pick?  And when your solo gameplay isn't nearly as good as WoW's, your players are grinding instead of having fun, and grinding to what exactly?

WAR incentivization failures seem mind-bogglingly obvious, but at the same time, it would have been extremely difficult to hybridize and balance the predictable WoW model and the unpredictable player-interaction based model in the first place. 

Clearly the beta didn't work.  For something as complex as the interactions in WAR are they should have had a real beta with people playing the real game.  Not set up situations.  The psychology involved in why people do things is very complex, and you are right-  a small switch here or there can really screw up things and then your first impression goes down the shitter. 

The reason WOW is predictable?  Intermittent and unpredictable rewards.  You don't know if you are going to get that drop.......and then it doesn't come this time.  But it will next time, right?  Wrong.  Well, maybe the time after that.

This is what gets gamblers hooked. 

We are looking for something different in WAR, and it truly is different.  They underestimated the psychology of why people will do mass/open PVP.  Maybe it is rewards, maybe not, but in the end there has to be a "hook" and it has to be fun long term.  I don't think they can get there with it without massive and sweeping changes in the way ORvR works, and not just changing the reward structure.

[Sophismata]

I'm starting to wonder if WAR can recover with the current engine.

The engine shits me. Random crashes, visual glitches, massive synchronisation problems. The second most irritating thing is the way it tends to skip spell effects when you cannot see the source of the spell - but this pales in comparison to the problems caused by WAR's buggy collision detection.

Annnnyway...

While I don't know if WAR can ever truly recover, I do think it has a lot riding on its 1.1 patch. My personal belief is that EA was losing money, and needed sales before its quarterly report. WAR had to release, and my guess is that a lot of final work didn't quite make it in - I *think* that the 1.1 changes will be pretty big, judging by MJ's comments scattered around the internet. There is mention that elements are being recoded for this, but... I don't know. I guess I just want this to succeed, and my hope and naïvety are blinding me to way things are probably headed.

But then, being Australian, I have a vested interest in WAR succeeding, because it could help make Oceanic servers a reality for future games, too.


Anyway, at the least, there needs to be some sort of communication as to what's down the track.

[Soln]

EA was losing money, and needed sales before its quarterly report.

Werd. 

[Sobelius]

Echo what's been said here. Game needs to consolidate players. I wouldn't mind seeing server merges -- even if it meant the occasional login queue on a weekend night.

Compared to the first couple of weeks, when players were everywhere and all the systems -- PQs, oRvR and Scenarios -- were all viable choices. Now the population is simply spread too thin -- it is spread out across servers, across tiers, across scenarios/PQs/RvR Lakes.

It's also possible people could be suffering mild burnout. I know I binged on WAR and played way too many hours for my own good during the first month. I'm feeling a little of the post-binge/burnout "blahs".

[GoodIdea]

When WOW was relased, WOW had massive server crashes, queues that lasted hours long before you could even log in, and a whole shit load more problems than WAR ever had. And they responded a lot slower than the devs at WAR do to problems.

It's a new game, so there are bound to be problems. But do you like the concept of the game, do you like open rvr?

I don't know how any of you could possibly go back to WOW. If you do, you're just looking for a completely different game than I am. F*** WOW pvp, it's not fun. We've been doing the same 4 crappy battlegrounds for years now. They are still meaningless and with cross servers BGs, even the players are meaningless, you're just a number, a one-serving friend, never to be seen again.

You know what? I can name you at least 10 destruction players on my server and I recognize most playes names now. That's what makes the game fun, the rivalries, known enemies, being a known person yourself. Meaningful wins and loses (if they ever fix zone control). That's what makes games fun.

But do whatever, it's your time. I know I'm going to give WAR a chance. I'll be really disappointed if they don't make the game more fun in the next month or two, but I am going to give them that time to adjust.

[Nebu]

But do whatever, it's your time. I know I'm going to give WAR a chance. I'll be really disappointed if they don't make the game more fun in the next month or two, but I am going to give them that time to adjust.

I'd love to give WAR a chance.  I'm just not going to pay them $15 a month while they get their act together.  After 10+ years with MMO's I'm just not willing to pay to play yet another MMO beta. 

[Arthur_Parker]

I was there when WOW started

Fuck man, have you really been playing computer games that long?

[GoodIdea]

I was there when WOW started

Fuck man, have you really been playing computer games that long?

Yes, have you? If you can remember back, the first 3 months of WOW were horrible in so many ways. Each patch day there was almost no point in even trying to login, it would just be one server crash after another.

WAR is so close to getting it right. They need to act fast but if they do, their playerbase will continue to grow. But they need open rvr to work.

I think they can get it right, I hope so anyway. Going back to WOW is not an option. I can't believe people are not bored of raiding already.

[Soln]

this thread needs more green.  Fish green.

[khaine]

I was there when WOW started

Fuck man, have you really been playing computer games that long?

Yes, have you? If you can remember back, the first 3 months of WOW were horrible in so many ways. Each patch day there was almost no point in even trying to login, it would just be one server crash after another.

WAR is so close to getting it right. They need to act fast but if they do, their playerbase will continue to grow. But they need open rvr to work.

I think they can get it right, I hope so anyway. Going back to WOW is not an option. I can't believe people are not bored of raiding already.

Shit , you can't expect him or many of us to remember back THAT far

[Ard]

Shit , you can't expect him or many of us to remember back THAT far

In my case, I blame the early onset of senility.

[Nija]

I quit war.

I'm playing WoW for the first time since 3 months after release.

WAR was good enough to revive the DIKU bug within me, but certainly not good enough to keep that bug fed.


Let me know when they merge all of the open rvr servers into a single one, because that's the population density that is required in order for this game to actually be fun. When that happens it'll be worth revisiting.

[Tuncal]

When WOW was relased, WOW had massive server crashes, queues that lasted hours long before you could even log in, and a whole shit load more problems than WAR ever had. And they responded a lot slower than the devs at WAR do to problems.

Technical stability does not a good game make. There are so many design flaws in WAR at the moment, you can easily consider it Open Beta. Nay, Alpha. Compare that to WoW, which had a lot of server problems at the start (actually a couple of months after the start, when their subscription numbers skyrocketed), yet had their game perfectly designed. And they had their endgame in place - even if at that stage it meant gearing up to do UBRS.

[Sophismata]

I was there when WOW started

Fuck man, have you really been playing computer games that long?

Yes, have you?

I just.. these forums are awesome.

[Kageru]

When WOW was relased, WOW had massive server crashes, queues that lasted hours long before you could even log in, and a whole shit load more problems than WAR ever had. And they responded a lot slower than the devs at WAR do to problems.

It's a new game, so there are bound to be problems. But do you like the concept of the game, do you like open rvr?

I don't know how any of you could possibly go back to WOW. If you do, you're just looking for a completely different game than I am. F*** WOW pvp, it's not fun. We've been doing the same 4 crappy battlegrounds for years now. They are still meaningless and with cross servers BGs, even the players are meaningless, you're just a number, a one-serving friend, never to be seen again.

Seen this argument so many times. WoW had server stability problems largely because they massively underestimated the popularity of the game, it had been perfectly stable during the large scale beta. This was a time when 400k online was the juggernaut and not even the WoW developers really expected that much more than that. They were wrong, but justifiably wrong.

I think open RvR will always be scuppered by population imbalance and ultimately repetitive. I've seen nothing in War to convince me this is not the case.

I think a small number of well balanced battlegrounds focuses players... Since they're probably going to funnel themselves into what is perceived as the best battlegrounds anyway. No point in a game investing a lot of development effort in dead space.

Cross server battlegrounds mean that smaller population servers can still get regular battleground instances starting which is good design they should have had in at launch. Personal ties to fellow players are much better formed in a PvE environment or amongst frequent allies, which is generally friends or guild.

Keep ranting though, watching fanboys in denial is one of my innocent pleasures.

[squirrel]

I was there when WOW started

Fuck man, have you really been playing computer games that long?

Yes, have you?

I just.. these forums are awesome.

Thars gold in them thar hills son.

[WindupAtheist]

When WOW was relased, WOW had massive server crashes, queues that lasted hours long before you could even log in, and a whole shit load more problems than WAR ever had. And they responded a lot slower than the devs at WAR do to problems.

Yeah, but when WoW released the impression was that of a complete thought-out game that was just getting buried under an order of magnitude more players than anyone could have expected. The systems in WAR are inscrutable to the observer and the developers appear to be scrambling to deal with basic design issues.

[Trippy]

MMOGs don't really get second chances.

EQ2 and EvE did recover... but you're generally correct.  

I'd really like to see Mark turn the ship around.  I want this game to succeed... but am losing hope.

EQ II never recovered. The game is better but they are still below the number of servers they launched with. I don't consider EVE such a game either since it was so under the radar to begin with. Even though it was supposedly a very crappy game/launch in the beginning it was more like the old-school EQ-model where it started small and grew.

AO is the only game I can think of that people knew about, was horrible at the beginning, but managed to improve things enough that they picked up a decent number of subs before falling back down again.

[Slayerik]

Yes, have you? If you can remember back, the first 3 months of WOW were horrible in so many ways. Each patch day there was almost no point in even trying to login, it would just be one server crash after another.

WAR is so close to getting it right. They need to act fast but if they do, their playerbase will continue to grow. But they need open rvr to work.

I think they can get it right, I hope so anyway. Going back to WOW is not an option. I can't believe people are not bored of raiding already.

You are kinda overblowing the problems WOW had. Believe it or not, and yes I am a stud, but I was there too. Some queues, some loot lag problems, some servers were fucked. I was still extremely hooked. Can the same be said for most people one month into WAR?

Guess they shoulda beta tested the thing before launching it.

[Trippy]

When WOW was relased, WOW had massive server crashes, queues that lasted hours long before you could even log in, and a whole shit load more problems than WAR ever had. And they responded a lot slower than the devs at WAR do to problems.

It's a new game, so there are bound to be problems. But do you like the concept of the game, do you like open rvr?

I don't know how any of you could possibly go back to WOW. If you do, you're just looking for a completely different game than I am. F*** WOW pvp, it's not fun. We've been doing the same 4 crappy battlegrounds for years now. They are still meaningless and with cross servers BGs, even the players are meaningless, you're just a number, a one-serving friend, never to be seen again.

Seen this argument so many times. WoW had server stability problems largely because they massively underestimated the popularity of the game, it had been perfectly stable during the large scale beta. This was a time when 400k online was the juggernaut and not even the WoW developers really expected that much more than that. They were wrong, but justifiably wrong.

No it wasn't perfectly stable in open beta. Things like loot lag in beta meant they knew their backend infrastructure was insufficient to handle the load even back then and it just got worse when it launched. But they had to launch when they did cause Vivendi said so, so they didn't have time to get in all the extra hardware they were going to throw at the problem until months after the launch.

[Hawkbit]

I was there when WOW started

Fuck man, have you really been playing computer games that long?

Yes, have you?

I just.. these forums are awesome.

Fully deserving of 

[Arthur_Parker]

I was there when WOW started

Fuck man, have you really been playing computer games that long?

Yes, have you?

 

When WOW was relased,

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 09:44:19 PM by GoodIdea »

Hey Geldon, how you been?

[UnSub]

But then, being Australian, I have a vested interest in WAR succeeding, because it could help make Oceanic servers a reality for future games, too.

As an Australian, I also appreciated the Oceanic servers on launch. But I watched them empty pretty quickly too.

[Zzulo]

They should have probably postponed the game a few months (until after WoTLK  ) and worked out the itemization and RvR issues, while also finishing the four missing classes.

I think that would have been better.

[slog]

They should have probably postponed the game a few months (until after WoTLK  ) and worked out the itemization and RvR issues, while also finishing the four missing classes.

I think that would have been better.

Probably.  But as mentioned above, this is EA we are talking about.  EA has been a slave to their quarterly results for years now, and they had to push the game out to meet their Earnings per Share targets.   EA just isn't set up do deal with the long term process that is required to launch a successfull MMORPG. 

[Arthur_Parker]

My guild has over 300 members tonight 9 were online at peak Euro time.  I'm starting to get AC2 flashbacks.

[Der Helm]

You know what? I can name you at least 10 destruction players on my server and I recognize most playes names now.

Are you sure that is a good thing ?

   

[WindupAtheist]

Random, but the problems WoW had early on were just plain much better problems to have. The perception that your game is so packed with people who want to play it that nobody else can fit is infinitely superior from a PR perspective than the perception that your game is ill-designed and underpopulated.

[Morfiend]

My guild has over 300 members tonight 9 were online at peak Euro time.  I'm starting to get AC2 flashbacks.

We started with around 100 members. Pretty active. Usually even 15+ on in major off hours. Currently we are lucky to have 2 online, and after removing all the people who havent logged in in 3 weeks, we have 30 members left.

[UnSub]

Random, but the problems WoW had early on were just plain much better problems to have. The perception that your game is so packed with people who want to play it that nobody else can fit is infinitely superior from a PR perspective than the perception that your game is ill-designed and underpopulated.

I thought that when Mythic mirrored some servers early on so that there was no / little queuing they could be making a mistake. Retroactively it would have been better to see if that level of demand continued and to point out that queuing meant WAR was popular and full of people. Now, with a lot of servers empty (or feeling empty, thanks to Mythic's world / game design) those extra servers have gone to waste and are just going to add to the embarrassment when servers start closing.

That server capacity was increased on top of adding extra servers is another situation where I wonder if Mythic's right hand knows what its left hand is doing. Queues on launch? Tell the players server capacity will be increased in 2 weeks since the game is really popular which will fix a lot of problems with queues.

[Megrim]

But then, being Australian, I have a vested interest in WAR succeeding, because it could help make Oceanic servers a reality for future games, too.

As an Australian, I also appreciated the Oceanic servers on launch. But I watched them empty pretty quickly too.

Come on now, Ironclaw and Darklands are hardly empty.

[tolakram]

On the original subject of what went wrong ...

Any problem that was in DAoC and is now fixed in DAoC, but is now in WAR, indicates that nothing was learned or knowledge was not transferred from one team to the other.  How can this happen?

[trias_e]

The design philosophy of WAR seems to be not to improve on past games, but throw in everything from WoW to DAOC haphazardly, say WAR is everywhere (but really all they mean is you can level from battlegrounds) add PQs and call it a day (or a few years).

There's never been a game better than WAR to point out the fact that you need to focus on doing one thing well, and not try to be everything to everyone.  WoW, even 4 years after release, is still only a carebear diku/sport PvP game.  And the sport PvP was added long after launch.  Extremely simple in scope, but extremely effective in delivery. 

One nice thing about WAR, is that if they focus on improving one section of the game extensively, it actually might end up quite good, with some balance and variety thrown in for good measure.  That is going to have to take a while, unfortunately.

I could easily seeing myself playing a PvE version of WAR that takes the PQ concept and expands it to the whole game.  In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if this isn't the next WoW expansion.

[korrowan]

Yes, have you? If you can remember back, the first 3 months of WOW were horrible in so many ways. Each patch day there was almost no point in even trying to login, it would just be one server crash after another.

WAR is so close to getting it right. They need to act fast but if they do, their playerbase will continue to grow. But they need open rvr to work.

I think they can get it right, I hope so anyway. Going back to WOW is not an option. I can't believe people are not bored of raiding already.

You are kinda overblowing the problems WOW had. Believe it or not, and yes I am a stud, but I was there too. Some queues, some loot lag problems, some servers were fucked. I was still extremely hooked. Can the same be said for most people one month into WAR?

Guess they shoulda beta tested the thing before launching it.

I am by far more hooked on War than I was at WoW at the beginning.  My group of friends server transferred to Monolith and we are having tons of fun in RvR and Scenarios with the medium / medium + pops .. even a queue on Saturday night... IMO server population is all that is wrong with this game... granted the PQ helped get people into the RvR lakes.. but it was crazy fun and we had keep siege and were juggling keeps for hours and hours... maybe that will help spur and make people realize RvR is fun!

[Nebu]

...maybe that will help spur and make people realize RvR is fun!

RvR is fun at first.  Do you think the RvR that you're doing now will still be fun in 6 months?

In its current state, it just doesn't have the hook or the depth to remain fun for the long haul.  Hell... I'll bet that most people don't even understand the goal of pvp in WAR (which is another serious error in implementation).  If your players don't even know the point of what they're doing, you've done something pretty seriously wrong.