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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: State of The Game - Mark Jacobs 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: State of The Game - Mark Jacobs  (Read 619013 times)
Nerf
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The Presence of Your Vehicle Has Been Documented


Reply #105 on: October 18, 2008, 01:18:54 AM

Oh man, this thread is fucking great, I'm really enjoying the Schild/MJ "Yeah, but who's on first?" bit.  Comedy gold.

Seriously though, let me know when theres not a soul-crushing grind, I did that shit in DAOC, 3 fucking times, I'm not doing it again.  I'll sub to war when I can blow through PVE and RvR to my hearts content.

(Soul crushing grind to the fun, the reknown point grind should take a long fucking time, as that's your PvP epeen)

Fake Edit:  Someone ban HRose for a couple days so Mark can make the game fun enough for me to play, Eve is boring me again.
schild
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Reply #106 on: October 18, 2008, 01:19:16 AM

Mark, stop worrying about HRose.

Hrose, go the ever-living fuck away back to your cesspit.

Don't make me put you two in seperate corners.
Morfiend
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wants a greif tittle


Reply #107 on: October 18, 2008, 01:21:17 AM


Do you think I'm really offbase about this?

I also do. I think what you are seeing, like I said, is all the players going where they can realistically advance their characters.

I do NOT agree with Schild about the RVR Lakes needing to be smaller, I think what we need is more players in the world. Transfers like you said in the SoG from low pop to medium is a good idea. I think my guild would move to a medium or high pop server in an instant. From what I can see, one of the major problems you are facing is the population of the server. If there was triple the amount of players on my server, PQs would be easer, RVR would be easer, the world would feel more alive.

I know its early, and I dont know what kind of load is possible, but here is my ideal solution with out a huge game rewrite.

1) Boost all quest exp rewards by 2x to lessen the feeling of grind.
2) Merge servers to give the average online population of each side between 1000 (low pop) and 2000 (full) while shooting for 1500 to 1800 average per side. I know this is more than you want on a server, but I think thats needed to fill out the world.
3) Huge boost to RVR Exp, I mean huge. The amount of exp earned for ether attacking of defending a keep should be the same as you get from 50:50 wins in Tor Anroc of Serpents, or even higher as it takes more people and more time for capture or defend.
4) Add PQ mechanics to Keep defending.
5) Add a LOT more PQ loot bags per capture or defense. Maybe 20 loot bags. Its not like you can get much benefit from having the same item, so this just insures people get a pices of loot.

There is it. Thats what I think.
schild
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Reply #108 on: October 18, 2008, 01:22:48 AM

Quote
I do NOT agree with Schild about the RVR Lakes needing to be smaller, I think what we need is more players in the world.

Not smaller, just less of them. If I said smaller, whoops.

Also, 2x still isn't enough for quest rewards in t3/t4. The only way for blizzard types to progress and for PvE to be palatable, the increase would have to be somewhere around 4x. There's no real way to fix the PvE, it just sucks, you just have to make the reward great enough that no one gives a shit.
squirrel
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Posts: 1767


Reply #109 on: October 18, 2008, 01:23:40 AM

It's simple really:

* DO NOT Fragment your playerbase at this stage with new NO SCENARIO!!?!! Servers. Do you really want all of us DAoC/SB types moving there alone?
* DO REDUCE THE PVE GRIND. The Quest XP issues in T3/T4 are silly and you know it needs fixing
* DO REDUCE SCENARIO IMPORTANCE as people progress. T1/T2? Go nuts. T3/T4 - no honey you aint getting love for that alone.

It's pretty much what I've seen most of the playerbase recommending all OVER THE PLACE. Here, on brokentoys, at Warhammeralliance. Just do it to start and let God sort it out shortly thereafter.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
squirrel
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Posts: 1767


Reply #110 on: October 18, 2008, 01:26:22 AM

LOL.  Was that you posting under a different name on the Vault Hrose?  I thought it was and was hoping that my statement would draw you out.  That post (from a new member) was a link to the Cesspit extolling the virtues of Hrose's writing and how insightful, positive and illuminating it was.  My comment back was simply "Alabieno = Hrose" and that he has been bashing Mythic and I for years.  I also went on to say that Hrose was at times intelligent but that when we didn't agree with him, his posts turned negative and personal.  Another poster linked to here and one of Hrose's comments about how I abused the community.

Now, what part of what I said wasn't true?

Mark
Look, I'm more interested to talk about the game and not derail this discussion. I replied to you on my blog, if you care reading.

I don't want to pick a fight because I rather certain that *you* are misunderstanding the whole thing, as I'm rather sure you misunderstood all I wrote for a very long time.

I post on the Vault as Stephaan (since DAoC days), and HRose on Q23 (where I arrived A LONG TIME BEFORE YOU) and here. That's it. I don't create fake accounts, nor I'm responsible of misspelling my own nickname and posting that thread today on the Vault.

I don't have "a tendency to create new accounts and post where you posted". You are just too egocentric and taking personally what personal isn't.

So, when I was on WHA in the beginning and you came over to post there and complain about me and Mythic and DAoC, you were there why exactly?

Or when years ago you posted under alias at the Vault and I called you on it when the alias said the same stuff about me?

Or all the columns you wrote saying I should be fired, I was liar and a cheat?

No, I'm not misunderstanding anything.  Based on some of what you had written, I really thought you had gotten past doing this sort of stuff but apparently not.  And again, it's a shame because at least I was willing to say in my posts that you are intelligent and you have some good ideas.

Mark

Should you two get a room?

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Fordel
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Reply #111 on: October 18, 2008, 01:26:39 AM

People follow the rewards. Is this where I say obvious design is obvious?


No one ENJOYS BG farming in WoW. It's just leaps and bounds the best reward path. It's practically the ONLY reward path for PvP for the masses.



WAR Scenarios seem like they have the same problem. They simply out weigh everything else reward wise. Buff the world RvR up, consolidate it, profit?


I played DaoC for a really long time, I WANT to like WAR, but you are making it very hard as things stand. "Soul crushing grind doing shit I don't want to do to get to the parts I want to do? Sign me up!  awesome, for real "

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1767


Reply #112 on: October 18, 2008, 01:28:13 AM

People follow the rewards. Is this where I say obvious design is obvious?


No one ENJOYS BG farming in WoW. It's just leaps and bounds the best reward path. It's practically the ONLY reward path for PvP for the masses.



WAR Scenarios seem like they have the same problem. They simply out weigh everything else reward wise. Buff the world RvR up, consolidate it, profit?


I played DaoC for a really long time, I WANT to like WAR, but you are making it very hard as things stand. "Soul crushing grind doing shit I don't want to do to get to the parts I want to do? Sign me up!  awesome, for real "

Which is what - about the 10000th post that basically says "FIX THE REWARDS AND WE WILL FOLLOW."

Ok, now I'm just getting annoyed. It's not that hard.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #113 on: October 18, 2008, 01:31:23 AM

People follow the rewards. Is this where I say obvious design is obvious?


No one ENJOYS BG farming in WoW. It's just leaps and bounds the best reward path. It's practically the ONLY reward path for PvP for the masses.



WAR Scenarios seem like they have the same problem. They simply out weigh everything else reward wise. Buff the world RvR up, consolidate it, profit?


I played DaoC for a really long time, I WANT to like WAR, but you are making it very hard as things stand. "Soul crushing grind doing shit I don't want to do to get to the parts I want to do? Sign me up!  awesome, for real "


Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios.  We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it. 

Mark
squirrel
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Posts: 1767


Reply #114 on: October 18, 2008, 01:34:06 AM

People follow the rewards. Is this where I say obvious design is obvious?


No one ENJOYS BG farming in WoW. It's just leaps and bounds the best reward path. It's practically the ONLY reward path for PvP for the masses.



WAR Scenarios seem like they have the same problem. They simply out weigh everything else reward wise. Buff the world RvR up, consolidate it, profit?


I played DaoC for a really long time, I WANT to like WAR, but you are making it very hard as things stand. "Soul crushing grind doing shit I don't want to do to get to the parts I want to do? Sign me up!  awesome, for real "


Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios.  We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it. 

Mark

Ok but keep in mind that if you won't commit to the game why the fuck should I? This is my money and time. I AM THE DAOC/SB guy you're talking about. So I don't want to fuck around for a few months only to find out that there's a "REAL WAR SERVER" coming in January. Are you sure you want to fracture your base that way?

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Morfiend
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Reply #115 on: October 18, 2008, 01:37:09 AM

Can you imagine trying to level on a "No Scenario" server with the way EXP is right now?

 ACK!
HRose
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Reply #116 on: October 18, 2008, 01:37:57 AM

So, when I was on WHA in the beginning and you came over to post there and complain about me and Mythic and DAoC, you were there why exactly?
What is WHA? Warhammer Alliance?

I don't have an account over there, never made one. You mistake me for someone else.

Quote
Or when years ago you posted under alias at the Vault and I called you on it when the alias said the same stuff about me?
I only have a forum account on the Vault and it's "Stephaan". That was, I think, before I used HRose or Abalieno as nicknames. Incidentally it was my character name in DAoC and the reason why I registered there since it was the "official" forum.

It's not like I hide my identity as in my signatures I have the other two nicknames I use.

Quote
Or all the columns you wrote saying I should be fired
I doubt I wrote something like that. I try to be careful on that front.

Quote
I was liar and a cheat?
On specific issues? I may have written it. And motivated it.

Quote
Based on some of what you had written, I really thought you had gotten past doing this sort of stuff but apparently not.
Yep, "gotten past" because I dropped my wishes to step in the industry and so was mostly using the blog to write about fantasy books and only about games from time to time.

If for "this sort of stuff" you mean being harsh and unforgiving, yes, I still am when writing about games. I stand behind all I wrote recently and hope I well motivated it. After all it's similar to what everyone else is writing here now.

In regards to "personal attacks" they aren't personal. I've criticized your work, often harshly and inappropriately, sure, but not to bash the man outside his public role. I don't know you personally and I don't judge you personally.

-HRose / Abalieno
cesspit.net
Fordel
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Reply #117 on: October 18, 2008, 01:39:38 AM

Quote
Look, I agree with you in theory 100%. However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios. We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it.

... because the other portions of the game do not reward enough?

Box A gives out Candy
Box B gives out Poop Nuggets

Which box will be more popular?  Ohhhhh, I see.


The "WoW MMO Noob" crowed follows the fucking candy. If you don't put Candy in the other parts of the game, they won't leave the part that has it!

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #118 on: October 18, 2008, 01:40:26 AM

People follow the rewards. Is this where I say obvious design is obvious?


No one ENJOYS BG farming in WoW. It's just leaps and bounds the best reward path. It's practically the ONLY reward path for PvP for the masses.



WAR Scenarios seem like they have the same problem. They simply out weigh everything else reward wise. Buff the world RvR up, consolidate it, profit?


I played DaoC for a really long time, I WANT to like WAR, but you are making it very hard as things stand. "Soul crushing grind doing shit I don't want to do to get to the parts I want to do? Sign me up!  awesome, for real "


Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios.  We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it. 

Mark

Ok but keep in mind that if you won't commit to the game why the fuck should I? This is my money and time. I AM THE DAOC/SB guy you're talking about. So I don't want to fuck around for a few months only to find out that there's a "REAL WAR SERVER" coming in January. Are you sure you want to fracture your base that way?

Wait a second.  How does me saying "Yeap, we are going to buff up RvR rewards, gear, itemization, new influence system, etc." + "Hey, by the way, would people like a no scenarios server or a tiered scenario server, just curious?" somehow translate to not committing to the game?  Again, let me say again that I'm just concerned even if we do all these things that a sizable portion of our players are so WoW-trained that they will prefer scenario based RvR to open RvR and if that is the case, that we have an option for the player who want to play open RvR more than scenarios.  

Mark
Morfiend
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Reply #119 on: October 18, 2008, 01:41:22 AM

Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios. 

They don't want to leave because taking time to RVR would be detrimental to them leveling or gearing. And there are two things ALL Diku MMOG players love, leveling and gear.
nefar
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Reply #120 on: October 18, 2008, 01:43:11 AM

Can you imagine trying to level on a "No Scenario" server with the way EXP is right now?

 ACK!


It would have to be boosted extremely high to compensate for the loss of the scenarios.  However, if the choice is sit on servers with all the wowheads playing sport pvp or move my ass to a server where people do real RVR I'd have to move.  Though, I do agree with most here, I would rather have the balance issues fixed, rewards that entice people  to rvr then have to split off on to a new server type.  So far though all I see out of warhammer is a bunch of scenarios designed to attract the wow sport pvp customer base.
squirrel
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Reply #121 on: October 18, 2008, 01:45:20 AM



Wait a second.  How does me saying "Yeap, we are going to buff up RvR rewards, gear, itemization, new influence system, etc." + "Hey, by the way, would people like a no scenarios server or a tiered scenario server, just curious?" somehow translate to not committing to the game?  Again, let me say again that I'm just concerned even if we do all these things that a sizable portion of our players are so WoW-trained that they will prefer scenario based RvR to open RvR and if that is the case, that we have an option for the player who want to play open RvR more than scenarios.  

Mark

Well without invoking the VisionTM - who designs the game - you or the WoW noobs (to quote) that you want to attract? It's pretty clear to me and everyone else in this thread. And Mark - we like you - you make games we enjoy - but you're wrong on this one. New server types will only drive away your fans who already sub and won't grab anyone with WoTLK coming.

WE FOLLOW THE CARROT. ALL OF US. WOW NOOBS INCLUDED.

Get rid of the bullshit restrictions, the bad PvE quest limitations and let us MAKE WAR. We will. I swear. WoW noobs included - no new server types needed.

EDIT:


It would have to be boosted extremely high to compensate for the loss of the scenarios.  However, if the choice is sit on servers with all the wowheads playing sport pvp or move my ass to a server where people do real RVR I'd have to move.  Though, I do agree with most here, I would rather have the balance issues fixed, rewards that entice people  to rvr then have to split off on to a new server type.  So far though all I see out of warhammer is a bunch of scenarios designed to attract the wow sport pvp customer base.

So would I. I'd have to move. And how is that going to help the game - with WoW BG players isolated on 40% of the servers, and us DAoC2/SB wannabee's on 40% and 20% rotting away. Not at all - that's how.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 01:47:37 AM by squirrel »

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Morfiend
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Reply #122 on: October 18, 2008, 01:47:04 AM

Get rid of the bullshit restrictions, the bad PvE quest limitations and let us MAKE WAR. We will. I swear. WoW noobs included - no new server types needed.

Amen!
schild
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Reply #123 on: October 18, 2008, 01:47:55 AM

The "No Scenario" idea is dimwitted, short-sighted, easy-way-out design, and pretty much retarded.

There's no nice way to say it.

Solving the problems presented to players of the game is pretty damned easy right now, it just seems Mythic as a whole has no real interest in approaching them from the Reward angle.

Mark can SAY it all he wants, but this incremental shit is for the birds.

20% more of nothing is still nothing, as someone else put it in another thread.

Open RvR doesn't reward in loot or experience, it should reward massively in both.
Scenarios don't reward in decent loot but they have the best exp return (and even that level of EXP return by tier 4 is shit).
PvE has the best loot but by far the most boring gaming experience and crappy EXP gain compared to scenarios.

Loot distribution and itemization, while pretty and well-named, is basically shit.
There's too much too spread out and too everywhere and it's all just turned itself into a nightmare scenario.

I really don't know how else to say it, but the skinner box is fucked up atm.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #124 on: October 18, 2008, 01:48:46 AM



Wait a second.  How does me saying "Yeap, we are going to buff up RvR rewards, gear, itemization, new influence system, etc." + "Hey, by the way, would people like a no scenarios server or a tiered scenario server, just curious?" somehow translate to not committing to the game?  Again, let me say again that I'm just concerned even if we do all these things that a sizable portion of our players are so WoW-trained that they will prefer scenario based RvR to open RvR and if that is the case, that we have an option for the player who want to play open RvR more than scenarios.  

Mark

Well without invoking the VisionTM - who designs the game - you or the WoW noobs (to quote) that you want to attract? It's pretty clear to me and everyone else in this thread. And Mark - we like you - you make games we enjoy - but you're wrong on this one. New server types will only drive away your fans who already sub and won't grab anyone with WoTLK coming.

WE FOLLOW THE CARROT. ALL OF US. WOW NOOBS INCLUDED.

Get rid of the bullshit restrictions, the bad PvE quest limitations and let us MAKE WAR. We will. I swear. WoW noobs included - no new server types needed.

I want to do just that and that's what I told the team last week.  However, don't you think I should be prepared just in case we're all wrong and the ex-WoW players  would rather play more scenarios no matter if the experience, gear and leveling speed is faster in open RvR and the RvR guys want to do more RvR and less (or no) scenarios?

Mark
schild
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Reply #125 on: October 18, 2008, 01:50:17 AM

Man, fuck, you can't please everyone all the goddamn time. Stop trying.

Ex-WoW players will STILL go back for Wrath. If they don't good on you, but you'll never ever be able to cater to them with PvE that has shit for a reward/time ratio. If you somehow magically think in their heart of hearts they're PVPers, you're doing it wrong.
Fordel
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Reply #126 on: October 18, 2008, 01:51:48 AM

WoW players do not enjoy BG farming. It's like, complaint #1 in WoW PvP. Well, maybe it's tied to "Arena or GTFO" complaints in PVP.

They do it because it's the only means for the Ding Grats Shiny Purple reward.






Schild is frothy, but the stuff he's outlined in this thread isn't wrong.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Velorath
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Reply #127 on: October 18, 2008, 01:53:40 AM

We just lost our 20% bonus on Uthuan/Order, and its really bad now.

Yeah, that was pretty painful actually.  At a time of the year when a lot of single player games are coming out and competing for my attention, it was a drag to log on today and find my character leveling slower.  It's especially bad during times when Order is getting steamrolled in scenarios.  If I log on and the first couple rounds I play aren't remotely competitive (which is often the case), it's easier for me to just log off and go back to playing Dead Space.
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1767


Reply #128 on: October 18, 2008, 01:56:15 AM

Dude what you're telling us - the people who bought in - is that we're going to have to re-roll because you don't have the balls to offend the WoWheads with a game-style they're not used to. Who the fuck do you think is going to populate your NO SCENARIO servers anyway? The WoW players? Apparently not. No, it's us, the people who are giving you the advice that it's a bad idea. Think about it man, seriously.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #129 on: October 18, 2008, 01:58:52 AM

The "No Scenario" idea is dimwitted, short-sighted, easy-way-out design, and pretty much retarded.

There's no nice way to say it.

Solving the problems presented to players of the game is pretty damned easy right now, it just seems Mythic as a whole has no real interest in approaching them from the Reward angle.

Mark can SAY it all he wants, but this incremental shit is for the birds.

20% more of nothing is still nothing, as someone else put it in another thread.

Open RvR doesn't reward in loot or experience, it should reward massively in both.
Scenarios don't reward in decent loot but they have the best exp return (and even that level of EXP return by tier 4 is shit).
PvE has the best loot but by far the most boring gaming experience and crappy EXP gain compared to scenarios.

Loot distribution and itemization, while pretty and well-named, is basically shit.
There's too much too spread out and too everywhere and it's all just turned itself into a nightmare scenario.

I really don't know how else to say it, but the skinner box is fucked up atm.

Look, since you're being blunt, so will I.  Do you think that I can just snap my fingers and all of a sudden loot drops, new gear, stat changes to current itemization, exp. boosts can happen in one day?  You're a hell of a lot smarter than that.  Let's say I'm in 100% agreement with you.  So, I walk into the EPs office, say that to him and tell him I want it on Monday.  WTF do you think his reaction would be?  Frankly, he would think I had lost my mind just like HRose said I did.   Do you really think that doing all that in a few days is simple?  What do you think it would go like this "Yeah, sure, Mark.  I'll get the team right on it and they will go through every RvR item in the game, boost stats, create new items, redo all the loot tables, change the experience/renown gain on every kill, change the exp. and renown gain on taking RvR objectives and do it perfectly well the first time, no testing necessary!  We'll start right away!  Is tomorrow morning too late?"

You're way off base here.  You're pissed off and it's early in the morning.  You're talking about making sweeping changes to every aspect of the RvR game and expect us (if you're right) to do that all at once and right away.  Please, let me know what team on this planet could possibly do that in the space of a few days, let alone a week.  We've already boosted RvR, we're going to boost it more this week and continue to boost it through 1.1 and beyond. 

Mark
Sjofn
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Reply #130 on: October 18, 2008, 02:01:46 AM

The ex-WoW people are not playing your game for PvE, so you can stop trying to make everyone do it if they don't wanna.

I think wringing your hands about the GOD WHAT IF THEY STAY IN SCENARIOS without even TRYING to make the world RvR really, really, REALLY rewarding (and FOR TEH REALM is not enough reward, sorry. We're greedy.) is ... stubborn? Perhaps that's the word. Make the open RvR stuff reward the crap out of people, and most people, even the "WoW noobs" (be more condescending, I know you can!) will do it. Shit, that's why Blizzard has been TRYING to put more world PvP in (and not doing so hot, in my opinion), people have asked for it because they're sick of BGs and open world PvP is often pretty fun. But if you get more shiny stuff from BGs or whatever ... well, that's what people will still do.

Will there still be people in scenarios? Sure. That's OKAY. I don't think anyone here (or in the game) is really mad people play and enjoy scenarios, we're just annoyed that the part some of us think is way more fun doesn't reward us nearly as much. Scenarios have some things that automatically make it "better" ... the sides will be even and you get to teleport there and back automagically. But if you get reeeeeally sweet stuff from open RvR, people will do that more.

God Save the Horn Players
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #131 on: October 18, 2008, 02:04:03 AM

Dude what you're telling us - the people who bought in - is that we're going to have to re-roll because you don't have the balls to offend the WoWheads with a game-style they're not used to. Who the fuck do you think is going to populate your NO SCENARIO servers anyway? The WoW players? Apparently not. No, it's us, the people who are giving you the advice that it's a bad idea. Think about it man, seriously.

Who said anything about re-rolling?  If I put up a new server rule set I damn well better have free transfers to it.  And I'm not worrying about offending the WoWheads but if you think I'm going to do something like cut scenario exp/renown in 1/2 or anything like that, you also must think I'm nuts.  I'll boost RvR like mad, make it the place to level and gear up but all I'm saying is that I want to be prepared for the possibility that a lot of players still may want to stick with scenarios.  I'm not burying my head in the sane and saying everything is great and we don't need to change anything but I also don't want to bury my head in the sand and say that if I do all these things, everything will be great.  I just want to have options in case we all are wrong.  How is that crazy or having no balls?

Mark
squirrel
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Posts: 1767


Reply #132 on: October 18, 2008, 02:05:25 AM

Ah no wrong. Sorry Mark but you set this hurricane in motion with your brilliant VNBoard poll. Don't worry about Schild, worry about people like me. I played DAoC for 4 years. It's not about snapping fingers or turning the ship around - YOU ASKED FOR THIS. IN A POLL.

Jesus dude - this is what I meant about commitment. You want my $ and time to level a character - answer this:


EDIT: SEE MARK'S RESPONSE ABOVE. FAST THREAD LOL.

Dude what you're telling us - the people who bought in - is that we're going to have to re-roll because you don't have the balls to offend the WoWheads with a game-style they're not used to. Who the fuck do you think is going to populate your NO SCENARIO servers anyway? The WoW players? Apparently not. No, it's us, the people who are giving you the advice that it's a bad idea. Think about it man, seriously. /EDIT

Don't blame critics for your missteps Mark. And again - you are a player here - we like you and your games, but you need to pull the trigger on this.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #133 on: October 18, 2008, 02:06:13 AM

Actually, if you're even in theoretical 100% agreement that would be at the very least the tiniest glimmer of hope. But you've brought up the No-Scenario server more than once in this thread alone (which was once too many as we lolled about it in another thread). It's totally not a solution.

I don't think any of it is simple. In the least.

But you still, even in that response, haven't addressed the simple fact that PvE is the best way to get loot, scenarios are the best way to get experience, and RvR is too fragmented. I mean, comeon friendo, you're killing me here. Even if you boost RvR by 300%, the diminishing returns on multiple kills due to the tiers being so removed from eachother is going to kill that fast. And it would basically require that euros and such on US servers play during our peak hours.

RvR is awesome. You're right. Scenarios are pretty great too! PvE could be pretty great if it wasn't so mind-numbingly non-rewarding. Fuck yea I'm pissed off. I did Tor Anroc some odd 200 times to get from 23-32. The fact I'm here arguing should tell you you're on the right path, I've already lasted here longer than any MMOG in the last oh, 5 years. But there are things at stake here, most notably the player base as the clock is ticking on Wrath and you keep referring to WoW players wanting a specific type of game. I'm not even sure Blizzard knows what they want. AFAIK most of those people are there because of the community, because that game is just not very good - it's just very polished. Obviously WAR isn't there yet, but you excel in other areas and unfortunately it seems like the steps being taken are... short-sighted.
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1767


Reply #134 on: October 18, 2008, 02:10:05 AM

Dude what you're telling us - the people who bought in - is that we're going to have to re-roll because you don't have the balls to offend the WoWheads with a game-style they're not used to. Who the fuck do you think is going to populate your NO SCENARIO servers anyway? The WoW players? Apparently not. No, it's us, the people who are giving you the advice that it's a bad idea. Think about it man, seriously.

Who said anything about re-rolling?  If I put up a new server rule set I damn well better have free transfers to it.  And I'm not worrying about offending the WoWheads but if you think I'm going to do something like cut scenario exp/renown in 1/2 or anything like that, you also must think I'm nuts.  I'll boost RvR like mad, make it the place to level and gear up but all I'm saying is that I want to be prepared for the possibility that a lot of players still may want to stick with scenarios.  I'm not burying my head in the sane and saying everything is great and we don't need to change anything but I also don't want to bury my head in the sand and say that if I do all these things, everything will be great.  I just want to have options in case we all are wrong.  How is that crazy or having no balls?

Mark

Ok I made an assumption there. Glad to hear you've thought of it. The ORvR game is great, I think you need to find a way to drive players there, and I don't think a no scenario server helps. I mean what are you going to do - have a no RvR server? It just doesn't make sense. Trust us, make the rewards matter, drive the base with the carrot and we'll do the rest. Experienced players, DAoC, SB, SWG, all of the people who are not new to this, will help the WoW folks step outside. And then what do you have? $hats, that's what.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #135 on: October 18, 2008, 02:13:01 AM

The ex-WoW people are not playing your game for PvE, so you can stop trying to make everyone do it if they don't wanna.

I think wringing your hands about the GOD WHAT IF THEY STAY IN SCENARIOS without even TRYING to make the world RvR really, really, REALLY rewarding (and FOR TEH REALM is not enough reward, sorry. We're greedy.) is ... stubborn? Perhaps that's the word. Make the open RvR stuff reward the crap out of people, and most people, even the "WoW noobs" (be more condescending, I know you can!) will do it. Shit, that's why Blizzard has been TRYING to put more world PvP in (and not doing so hot, in my opinion), people have asked for it because they're sick of BGs and open world PvP is often pretty fun. But if you get more shiny stuff from BGs or whatever ... well, that's what people will still do.

Will there still be people in scenarios? Sure. That's OKAY. I don't think anyone here (or in the game) is really mad people play and enjoy scenarios, we're just annoyed that the part some of us think is way more fun doesn't reward us nearly as much. Scenarios have some things that automatically make it "better" ... the sides will be even and you get to teleport there and back automagically. But if you get reeeeeally sweet stuff from open RvR, people will do that more.

And that's exactly what I said we'd do.  We're going to boost it like crazy.  Maybe I would have been better off just saying:

We are going to boost RvR like crazy, it's going to be the place to be.  You'd have to have 10 tons of brain damage not to go open RvR.

And left it at that.   OTOH, I thought apparently foolishly, that by talking about the possibility of having a server where there are no scenarios would be worth talking about.  However, now it appears that even talking about something means that I am refusing to commit, have no balls and no vision.  What's up with that?  So I should never throw out an idea for consideration?  I hate the Vision stuff more than most designers so I like to throw out ideas for consideration by others whether on my team or elsewhere.  I thought that blindly following a Vision was bad but is it okay now? 

Look, I'm not saying your wrong but if I can't even talk about an idea or even consider that you/I/anybody could be wrong no matter how much experience we have, then we are all in real trouble.  Because nobody is right all the time, nobody.

Mark
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 02:14:34 AM by MarkJacobs »
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #136 on: October 18, 2008, 02:15:28 AM

Squirrel is notably crazy, to be fair, because he talks calm when what he means to say is:

MAKE THE REWARDS MATTER.

The way he says it makes it seem like 20, 30, or even 40% better is a step in the right direction, when the steps that should be taken need to be much, much more.

Again though, don't increase renown, long-term success there for players. That's the journey. 1-40 player rank is the tutorial - and it not being that is probably where the biggest misstep was taken.

Quote
We are going to boost RvR like crazy, it's going to be the place to be.  You'd have to have 10 tons of brain damage not to go open RvR.

Mark, how do you plan on getting people in tier 3 and tier 4 into the proper RvR zones (as there are what, like 3,286 different lakes?) and what's the plan for off-peak hours? That's the big problem I have with a pure direct focus going into RvR. It's why I bring up scenarios and PvE so much - and why you snapped at me for suggesting sweeping changes. Awesome RvR is awesome RvR, and that's great. But that's what, 3-4 hours each night where that's plausible? Is that really enough?

Edit: Also, f13 and the people here aren't the ones inflicting the time-table on you, Blizzard is. And sure, it's OK to talk about theoretical shit, for sure, in fact players fucking love it - we love it. But doing so a month before a 600lb gorilla drops 8 tons of banana-stank shit on your doorstep? That's the sort of thing that will set us off like a pack of chupacabras under a full moon.
Sjofn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8286

Truckasaurus Hands


Reply #137 on: October 18, 2008, 02:17:12 AM

It's not that you can't entertain ideas, but you have to be OK with people rejecting an idea, even if it is your very favoritest one.

God Save the Horn Players
squirrel
Contributor
Posts: 1767


Reply #138 on: October 18, 2008, 02:20:40 AM

As Schild says - I am actually certifiable. But I'm Canadian, we hide it well.

Look man, even with free transfers do you really want a PvP game with everyone like me on one server and all the BG instance lovers on another? NO YOU DON'T. Not good. Not good for the game. you want us psycho DAoC2/SB guys mixing with your new players. You know you do. IT'S a BAD IDEA.

EDIT: And all the shit Schild and I and others said before. Fix the fucking carrot and it's gold.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 02:23:52 AM by squirrel »

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306


Reply #139 on: October 18, 2008, 02:23:04 AM

You threw out your idea, we considered it stupid.

You threw out the same idea, we still considered it stupid.

You threw it out AGAIN, and behold, we considered it stupid.

You threw it out yet AGAIN and people started to get pissy, then you got pissy at people getting pissy at you.

 Beating a Dead Horse


Quote
And that's exactly what I said we'd do.  We're going to boost it like crazy.  Maybe I would have been better off just saying:

We are going to boost RvR like crazy, it's going to be the place to be.  You'd have to have 10 tons of brain damage not to go open RvR.

Umm... yes? Now you can maybe expand on how your going to make the rewards awesome too! Or maybe answer how you intend to make sure there is RvR to actually be had, had on servers that currently exist!

 why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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