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Author Topic: I'm Out  (Read 21078 times)
rk47
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Reply #70 on: October 14, 2008, 04:46:11 PM

why don't we just roll on open rvr server then? head over to their PQ and farm their exp. I ran past one dude. gibbed him n got around 1.4 k exp while running to my PVE quest zones earlier.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Tarami
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Reply #71 on: October 14, 2008, 05:33:53 PM

Have you played WoW? It is considered one of the least 'grindy' MMORPGs around, and you just described it. I think that any time you set out in a game to be the maximum level before you will have your fun, you're setting yourself up for a bad time. Either you enjoy the game getting there or you don't. And if you don't, why bother?

Tempting though the 'prize' of 'endgame' may be in an MMORPG, you're supposed to stop and look at the scenery on the way there. I'm prepared to stop, play another character and group with other people on their new characters along the way because I'm playing the game for fun, and I get the fun at any level. I suspect that at some point, I'll have one or more level 40, renown 80 characters, but its not a hard objective so long as I'm having fun.

If you find it to be a grind at level 8, its definitely not your game, and its even probable that MMORPGs are not your game. Run away.

[snip]
A bit long, I'm sorry if it's incoherent, I just came home after nearly 12 hours of work-work.

-

You're pushing my point to extreme generalization, I'm not saying it's bad because it's "kinda like this", I'm saying it feels tedious because it's done precisely the way it is done. WAR is so formulaic that you're basically rehashing the same two or three levels (the length of a chapter) 15 times, until you've hit 40. Enter chapter, pick up 10 quests, grind PQs for twice the time it took to do the chapter-related quests, get rewards, proceed to next chapter, repeat. And repeat. Every MMO is repetetive, but WAR gives it some fresh air and seemingly quite deliberately. Every item you get is [Old item] +10%. Every PQ is [Old PQ] +10%. Mastery points in general mean [Some Old Skills] +5%.

That's PvE and it's not WAR's long suit, I'm aware of that, but it's still part of the grand design. It's (atleast) a third of the game that's horribly linear. In terms of content creation, it was probably closer to 50% or maybe more.

RvR lakes are fun, until you realize you're really doing it in vain, because there's nothing about it even resembling closure. Threewave CTF without a capture limit set. Yes, melting faces is fun, for a little while, but since it's largely about zerging or being zerged, it ends being fun fairly fast. But D/G is H/D is E/C RvR lake. Pairing doesn't matter, it's just the same objectives copied and pasted all over. Thank God they removed two of the endgame pairings, I don't know how it would have been supposed to work otherwise.

Which leaves scenarios, which seem to be where people are having some kind of consistent fun, including me. Not really because it's scenarios and shoebox levels being awesome, but because it's the only way I'm getting rewards and some sort of closure and actually differing layouts. So I "grind" those, instead. Three venues, ten levels. And if I actually like one or multiple of them and want to keep doing (grinding!) them, I will still be forced out. Hold it there mate, you've had too much STC already, ten laps around PG before I'm letting you back in. You back? Well, I changed my mind and gave your spot to the tall guy with the crazy-ass beard.

Put shortly: It's like a bad three-hour movie that with a decent editor could have been just one and a half hour of awesomeness. Less everything, please.

- I'm giving you this one for free.
- Nothing's free in the waterworld.
Righ
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Reply #72 on: October 15, 2008, 08:53:13 AM

You're pushing my point to extreme generalization, I'm not saying it's bad because it's "kinda like this", I'm saying it feels tedious because it's done precisely the way it is done. WAR is so formulaic that you're basically rehashing the same two or three levels (the length of a chapter) 15 times, until you've hit 40. Enter chapter, pick up 10 quests, grind PQs for twice the time it took to do the chapter-related quests, get rewards, proceed to next chapter, repeat. And repeat. Every MMO is repetetive, but WAR gives it some fresh air and seemingly quite deliberately. Every item you get is [Old item] +10%. Every PQ is [Old PQ] +10%. Mastery points in general mean [Some Old Skills] +5%.

I'm not really pushing your point - you STILL haven't said anything that can't reasonably describe just about every quest, levels and gear related game out there. You're saying WAR's PVE is excessively formulaic, and yet its the same damned formula that WoW, LotRO or EQ2 uses. I think the only reason that people are taking umbrage with it in WAR is that they see it as an obstacle to overcome to get to the PVP fun - they would prefer a Planetside or at the most extreme, a Guild Wars game attached to their PVP, not a quest and incremental reward RPG. In the other MMOs people are okay with even worse repetition simply because that's all the game offers. You play LotRO don't you - are you seriously saying that the questing in LotRO is less repetitive than in WAR?

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
amiable
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Reply #73 on: October 15, 2008, 09:29:21 AM


I'm not really pushing your point - you STILL haven't said anything that can't reasonably describe just about every quest, levels and gear related game out there. You're saying WAR's PVE is excessively formulaic, and yet its the same damned formula that WoW, LotRO or EQ2 uses. I think the only reason that people are taking umbrage with it in WAR is that they see it as an obstacle to overcome to get to the PVP fun - they would prefer a Planetside or at the most extreme, a Guild Wars game attached to their PVP, not a quest and incremental reward RPG. In the other MMOs people are okay with even worse repetition simply because that's all the game offers. You play LotRO don't you - are you seriously saying that the questing in LotRO is less repetitive than in WAR?

I still play LOTRO as a fun PvE game to do with friends and I think that it can be argued that LOTROs PvE is pretty good.  All the stories have "flavor" related to the books and they did a great job keeping that all in character and the instances are amazing visually and story-wise.   Also the combo system is quite fun.  WAR doesn't have anything like that.  Having said that, I LOVE WAR pvp, but I am aware they need to fix a few things...

It is grindy as shit though in some parts (deeds I am looking at you - kill 500 f$$%ing slugs to get 1 level of Determinaiton, Ughhh).
Righ
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Reply #74 on: October 15, 2008, 11:31:35 AM

Funny you should say that, after the RvR combat, I would say that the implementation of the Warhammer lore and the associated Tome is the best part of WAR. LotRO's Fellowship Combo system is fairly unique and one of its better ideas, but it doesn't mean that the quests aren't very similar, and that the items aren't incremental improvements. Sadly, those really are generic concepts in all modern MMORPGs. I still contend that WAR's PVE isn't atypical. Its just that nobody wants to do it when there are more attractive things they could be doing.

Lets face it, the whole idea of leveling up a character in an MMOG is a bad one - in every single game it is in. Its not the pen and paper world where there's a games master with every group that ensures that the characters are of appropriate level to play together. Its not a solo video game RPG where you advance through a story setting. Where WAR is potentially worse than WoW, LotRO or even EQ II is not the quality or repetitiveness of the PVE experience, its in the delineation between players of different levels into locked tiers. In a shared game, I should be able to play with everybody from day one until the day the server closes or I decide to leave, regardless of how often I play compared to other people. Certainly there is scope for character development, specialization and improvement as well as reward for quality and quantity of play, but it should not prevent meaningful game play between a veteran and a beginner. To do so is BAD GAME DESIGN, and the fact that every single MMOG copies the bad design is a damning indictment of the so-called deisgners.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Lantyssa
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Reply #75 on: October 15, 2008, 11:39:37 AM

Amen!

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #76 on: October 15, 2008, 11:40:39 AM

Funny you should say that, after the RvR combat, I would say that the implementation of the Warhammer lore and the associated Tome is the best part of WAR. LotRO's Fellowship Combo system is fairly unique and one of its better ideas, but it doesn't mean that the quests aren't very similar, and that the items aren't incremental improvements. Sadly, those really are generic concepts in all modern MMORPGs. I still contend that WAR's PVE isn't atypical. Its just that nobody wants to do it when there are more attractive things they could be doing.

Lets face it, the whole idea of leveling up a character in an MMOG is a bad one - in every single game it is in. Its not the pen and paper world where there's a games master with every group that ensures that the characters are of appropriate level to play together. Its not a solo video game RPG where you advance through a story setting. Where WAR is potentially worse than WoW, LotRO or even EQ II is not the quality or repetitiveness of the PVE experience, its in the delineation between players of different levels into locked tiers. In a shared game, I should be able to play with everybody from day one until the day the server closes or I decide to leave, regardless of how often I play compared to other people. Certainly there is scope for character development, specialization and improvement as well as reward for quality and quantity of play, but it should not prevent meaningful game play between a veteran and a beginner. To do so is BAD GAME DESIGN, and the fact that every single MMOG copies the bad design is a damning indictment of the so-called deisgners.

But its a design that makes money, because its what the players want. The need to catch up to your friends is most likely a huge retention point.

But i agree with you for the most part. Ah, planetside.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #77 on: October 15, 2008, 12:13:10 PM

It's not what the players want, it's the only friggin' option available.  Players want to be able to play with their friends.  Thus the popularity of mentoring systems.

On retention, it might work for a little bit or if the friends actually manage to catch up.  When they realize it isn't happening, it becomes a huge barrier and one major reason people quit.  I've done it over and over.

WAR kind of gets it right but not really.  I'm at least able to play with my friends some of the time when we're in the same Tier.  That means I'll last a month or two more than had it not been the case.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Soln
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Reply #78 on: October 15, 2008, 12:21:05 PM

what if you don't know anyone?  The mechanics need to be there to encourage grouping. 

Can anyone point to an MMO that really does that well? 

WAR sounds to be close with PQs but you all have highlighted they are not successful because the population is so spread out level wise. 
Tarami
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Reply #79 on: October 15, 2008, 12:28:59 PM

I'm not really pushing your point - you STILL haven't said anything that can't reasonably describe just about every quest, levels and gear related game out there. You're saying WAR's PVE is excessively formulaic, and yet its the same damned formula that WoW, LotRO or EQ2 uses. I think the only reason that people are taking umbrage with it in WAR is that they see it as an obstacle to overcome to get to the PVP fun - they would prefer a Planetside or at the most extreme, a Guild Wars game attached to their PVP, not a quest and incremental reward RPG. In the other MMOs people are okay with even worse repetition simply because that's all the game offers. You play LotRO don't you - are you seriously saying that the questing in LotRO is less repetitive than in WAR?
Yes, I am, same goes for most MMORPGs with a strong PvE component. No, it's not about generic traits of the genre such as "gear", "levels" or "hotbars" - by large I like dikus. If it were, I'd could say Vanguard is as fine a game as WoW, which I assume we both think it's not (to whichever's favour)? So you're generalizing when you're saying WAR's PvE is as good or fun or non-repetitive as any other diku's PvE, because I don't think all dikus have equal PvE. Fun is about execution, not the genre of the gameplay.

In fact, repetition is never an issue in a game as long as the repetition is well-disguised, varied enough and that it sometimes gives you a break. It's kinda imperative to the game not to derail and become a complete sandbox - there are restrictions on what's logical to add. Every game will repeat if you're looking at it with a large enough scope - it's just that WAR repeats without mercy every other level or so. Let me be frank here, WAR's PvE is damn uninspired. For the most part they haven't even -tried- to break out of the monotony. Quests don't even really give you any gear that's worth getting.

And yes, I play LotRO and I will say that LotRO has probably one of the finest crafted quest progressions in the genre. It's the only diku I got multiple capped characters in. If you're saying that quality's implication on fun does not apply because they're sharing the same tenets of design, I don't know what to say. Quake to Half-life?

That said, I would love to get some truly new gameplay, but until someone comes up with something enticing I will keep separating bad, monotone PvE from good (better), involving PvE.

what if you don't know anyone?  The mechanics need to be there to encourage grouping.

Can anyone point to an MMO that really does that well? 

WAR sounds to be close with PQs but you all have highlighted they are not successful because the population is so spread out level wise. 
I think WAR's primary issue with PQs is that there are too many - 9 per faction and chapter. There's no way for people in all 9 places to communicate that they're interested in doing the same thing. But content dilution is an issue the PvE got in general. It's Autobahn despite most people are riding bikes.

- I'm giving you this one for free.
- Nothing's free in the waterworld.
Righ
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Reply #80 on: October 15, 2008, 01:12:32 PM

So you're generalizing when you're saying WAR's PvE is as good or fun or non-repetitive as any other diku's PvE, because I don't think all dikus have equal PvE. Fun is about execution, not the genre of the gameplay.

Actually I'd call it a difference of opinion, not a generalization. I find the overall PvE content of WAR to be acceptable, better (and less repetitive) than LotRO, much better than Vanguard or DDO, much much less repetitive than CoH/CoV and marginally worse in both execution and repetition than either EQ II or WoW. That's why I think that much of the hyperbole about WAR's PVE stems from a desire to be doing something else, not the systems themselves. If you hate it, that's fair enough though.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Wasted
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Reply #81 on: October 15, 2008, 05:58:01 PM

There is a monotony to the WAR pve linked to the fact that there are no real idylls or areas outside of the war.  Every zone another battlefront and invading forces.  Only the capitol cities offer anything separate to a degree.  It starts of really good, being thrown in the thick of it all, but there really needed to be places away from the war that had their own domestic non destruction/order concerns that gave more contrast.

Also the fact that every second quest takes you to a mostly empty pq further promotes the monotony feeling as well as reminding you of what you could be doing if there where more people around.
Sjofn
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Reply #82 on: October 15, 2008, 10:31:25 PM

There is a monotony to the WAR pve linked to the fact that there are no real idylls or areas outside of the war.  Every zone another battlefront and invading forces.  Only the capitol cities offer anything separate to a degree.  It starts of really good, being thrown in the thick of it all, but there really needed to be places away from the war that had their own domestic non destruction/order concerns that gave more contrast.

But ... but ... war is everywhere! EVERYWHERE!

God Save the Horn Players
lac
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Reply #83 on: October 15, 2008, 11:40:52 PM

Quote
But ... but ... war is everywhere! EVERYWHERE!
It's more like 'Where is everyone?' on my server.
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Reply #84 on: October 16, 2008, 12:48:51 AM

There is a monotony to the WAR pve linked to the fact that there are no real idylls or areas outside of the war.  Every zone another battlefront and invading forces.  Only the capitol cities offer anything separate to a degree.  It starts of really good, being thrown in the thick of it all, but there really needed to be places away from the war that had their own domestic non destruction/order concerns that gave more contrast.

But ... but ... war is everywhere! EVERYWHERE!

I think the concerns of the RvRists is that war is somewhere, but they just can't find it regularly.

Ratman_tf
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Reply #85 on: October 16, 2008, 04:48:15 AM

Quote
Time to dust the canoe off!

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Tarami
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Reply #86 on: October 16, 2008, 06:55:20 AM

Also the fact that every second quest takes you to a mostly empty pq further promotes the monotony feeling as well as reminding you of what you could be doing if there where more people around.
Even if it wasn't empty, it'd still be the same PQ you did last chapter, and the chapter before that. Ohhhhh, I see.

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Khaldun
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Reply #87 on: October 16, 2008, 10:25:29 AM

The problems with WAR PvE are:

a) Every fight is completely the same. There are no real wrinkles or complications to mobs, no need to think out any fight. Even a champion fight, if you're in one you can win, is just a matter of time. This is *most* but not all routine PvE in other games, including WoW. At least in some environments in WoW, I need to think out my pathway. Or I need to pick mobs carefully, or use an appropriate pull. I may need to consider target order. Clothies will go down quickly, but I want to get on any mob that can heal quickly, and use an interrupt if I have one. Etc. In WAR, every single PvE fight is the same and virtually every single fight takes the same amount of time.

b) The visual environments actually get less interesting as the game goes on, not more so. Avelorn is a totally generic "elf-land", Talabecaland dull as dirt, Greenskin Tier 3 is "Barrens With Mountains". The mobs are also visually monotonous, and sometimes stupidly so. By Tier 3, I'm supposed to be pretty capable in terms of the surrounding mythos, but there are peasants with no armor on who take as much time to kill as supposedly highly skilled enemies and who do as much damage to me. The PvE has no narrative coherence in that sense, including in the PQs. Think of the first Chaos PQ you see, the one where the giant comes out in Stage 3. It has a snappiness to it as an experience, and the giant is an enjoyable visual reward at the end. Try to think of a Tier 3 PQ that feels anything like that. There aren't any. So there is nothing visual and nothing narrative to make you go 'that's cool' once you're past Chapter Four or so.

c) There aren't really any variant quest types or unusual twists in PvE beyond the difference between PQs and not-PQs. No bombing runs, no scripted bits, etc., nothing to relieve the "kill X shit" and "get X drops" monotony.

d) The itemization sucks in multiple ways, and this means you don't have that vague sense in the back of your head that maybe this fight some really cool or valuable thing will drop. The greens in a given Tier and level range are all identical in their stat bonuses (unless they are one of the genuine variants that has wackily stupid stats on it). Plus crafting is so utterly shit that you also don't have any real gathering "hook" to PvE, where you're trying to accumulate something for crafting. Plus the economy doesn't matter at all anyway, so there's never really any wealth-accumulating implications to PvE.

e)  The time-to-kill for many mobs, especially if you're a tank, is just fucking mind-numbing. I'd estimate it is three to four times time-to-kill on even con mobs that WoW offers, even for a protection-spec warrior. As a tank, I virtually never have any sense that I'm going to die even in a crowd of even con mobs, so it's just "set my timer, yawn, and read a book while I click on the button". PLUS the repop time on PvE mobs is exceptionally rapid, so this adds extra tedium when I'm trying to kill a particular mob or make my way through a spawn to get to a target. PLUS you dismount very easily AND most "shortcuts" are blocked by nuisance mob spawns, forcing me often to have to clear through a spawn in order to get anywhere far away from a quest hub. (Like those champion wyvern things in Talabecland, or those spawns of lions.)

f) Many many quest sequences consist of a back-and-forth between a hub and the same location multiple times. This is hateful in any game, but especially so given the particular montony of WAR's PvE.

g) The Chosen auras aggro mobs at ridiculous distances and they aggro all mobs, including orange ones. Meaning as a Chosen I sometimes get dismounted by level 2 rats and suchlike.

h) Mob following distances are goddamn insane, especially champs and heroes. Again, not threatening, but annoying as all fuck to be followed halfway across the zone by three mobs whacking on you periodically, in part because that keeps you from mounting and it sometimes keeps you from dealing with the quest you've travelled to do until you get rid of following mobs that you had no interest in fighting.

i) In the only major instance I've been in, Gunbad, the clumping of mobs really works against conventional grouping strategies common in PvE MMOGs. This would be ok if some alternative tactics were rewarding and it took a while to think them out. But instead from what I can see the model is "zergfest with appropriate level players and you get loot pinata; zergfest with under optimal level or without some healers and you die". At first I thought it was us, but I've been in two parts now with a careful, skilled group and it still turns into pure chaos zergathon for the most part.


Seriously, it's the little things that make PvE in this game about eighty times more annoying than any comparable product. In CoH/CoV, I can avoid most fights with travel powers, I can call my contacts to turn in quests and get new ones, the mobs have more visual variety and a variety of tactics, etc. In LoTRO, the environments and narrative are more interesting and varied even without their connection to the books, many zones give you a way to maneuver through them to get to desired targets, and you can usually load up on quests and complete a bunch right in one area rather than doing a lot of back-and-forth. Etc.

There is no way to fix any of this: WAR just has bad PvE. End of story. Anybody who preferentially does WAR PvE or who finds it ok, kind of fun, is someone with depraved tastes.
Phunked
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Reply #88 on: October 16, 2008, 06:36:18 PM

I have to agree with pretty much every point. Plus so many of the mechanics are shitty. Makes me genuinely sad.
rk47
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Reply #89 on: October 17, 2008, 02:05:50 AM

yeah my friend brought up a good point, he was darn happy with his chosen. 'wow such cool armour let's head out to chapter 9!'

we got there n he got raped by 3 lvl 20 peasants (he was 18).

'wtf? how can these peasants beat the shit out of me?'

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Wasted
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Reply #90 on: October 17, 2008, 02:18:01 AM

They are peasants hardened by a lifetime of constant WAR! obviously
Khaldun
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Reply #91 on: October 17, 2008, 06:37:13 AM

It's well-known that peasants in Talabecland have callouses all over the body from their sweaty exertions, harder than forged steel. That's why Destruction is out to kill hundreds of them, so they can harvest peasant hides for armor-making.
Sparky
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Reply #92 on: October 18, 2008, 01:35:38 PM

PVE is just beyond suck for a Zealot, takes me a good 30+ seconds (I know this because it's always 2 DoTs) to take down an even con.  That's not including pulling or locating the mob.  I've started avoiding trash mobs just because the encounters are so boring, but that's making my progression even slower.  Maybe you could give trash half the HP and double their damage?  That might throw other shit out of whack though.  Hope something can be done in any case.
Khaldun
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Reply #93 on: October 18, 2008, 02:32:49 PM

How to minimize the suck of WAR PvE:

Relatively easy fixes (I think), and worth doing right now because no matter what you do, PvE will have to be there when RvR is just not happening.

1) Make RvR even more rewarding so that there is almost no need to do PvE, so that RvR is overwhelmingly incentivized. (Ok, not really a direct fix to PvE, but the goal is to get PvE there just for times when no one's on or you're feeling kind of antisocial.)
2) Thin out or outright eliminate trash spawns. Especially thin out or even eliminate spawns whose obvious design intention is to impede easy movement between quest hubs and quest destinations. I could come up with a list without much effort. There is no reason for such mobs except to slow down questing XP gain by forcing players to take very roundabout routes or to clear trash before getting to quest areas.
3) Cut kill X and drop X target rates for quest completion by 20% or even 33%. (Boosting XP gain rates doesn't quite achieve the same goal: you want to eliminate the experience of tedium during the completion of the quest.)
4) Make it more difficult for mobs to dismount players.
5) Cut the respawn rate on mobs except in PQ areas, where a high respawn rate is appropriate.

This would at least cut out the annoying level of intermediary tedium that is very obviously about trying to slow down the pace of levelling.

----------

Longer term fixes, some of which should be relatively low priority compared to getting RvR in a better state.

1) Go back and look at the Tier 1 PQs and use them as a structural model for redoing the Tier 2, 3 and 4 PQs. E.g., make them faster, give them more narrative "pop" and try to make Stage III a visual and gameplay surprise in some fashion, whether it's a boss with an interesting script, some kind of fun event, what have you.
2) Completely overhaul itemization so that there are more varieties of items and that some of them are anomalously good or useful. Improve the PQ loot especially.
3) Improve crafting and tie it into drops from PvE more extensively.
4) Improve mob AI while developing a much more varied range of mobs. Make some mobs disproportionately dangerous to some classes, etc.--rock paper scissors design for mobs and their AI. Make it so I have to think just ever so small an amount while I'm doing PvE, so that I have to have situational awareness.
5) Change the mob spawn density and clumping in Gunbad and any similar instances. Change the pacing of fights in instances so that there are more definite pauses in between major battles rather than just a constant zergfest. Add visual effects to make it much clearer who mobs are attacking: I've found it very hard to tell who a ranged mob is attacking unless I'm on vent with people because many of them don't visually signal very well what they're doing.
6) Make the design of mobs more narratively immersive. I shouldn't be having to fight uber-peasants in Tier 3: peasants should only dangerous to me in very large swarms at that point. Reinforce your setting and mythology with visual design.
7) Introduce at least two or three other common quest templates.
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Reply #94 on: October 19, 2008, 01:30:36 AM

My main was an Archmage, the more I level the slower I kill mobs, the more I level the number of mobs I need to kill increases exponentially.

I need to interact with items in quests, and the mobs repop faster than I can kill them. I aggro into champion mobs behind trees, around the corner and die because the mobs behind me has respawned. I try to find quest objectives and I can't do it because mobs are spawning in my face constantly.

In pvp the melees get stronger and stronger - most of them get healing debuffs, movement debuffs, and the higher I level the easier I melt to melees. I get the sense that class balance is delicate and fluid in a PVP game, a process that require constant balancing - and it's very disheartening to see practically nothing come in the way of class/mirror balancing so far. As mentioned, leveling in warhammer is tedious, boring, painful - rerolling a different class is not quite an option in this game as it is. Oh, and every time you outlevel one tier, it's pain time - if you go scenarios you get melted by everyone because you just signed on to be the lowest in the food chain; or you try to level up 3-4 levels through pve alone and go through no less amounts of pain, frustration and tedium.

On the flip side, Wow's patch 3 is up. Lots of new talents allowing healer's hybrids to spec and do very respectable dps - you know, when you can actually kill stuff if you spec for it. Healing/spell damage is folded up into a single stat, gear used to dps can now be used to heal too and vice versa. It's a welcome change coming from Warhammer where you need to find the stats you want in the faction/class you are where often it does not exist/only appear in loot rolls for PQs that are completed once in a blue moon. Warhammer's itemization is disgraceful, in other words.

I'm out and back to Wow, it is not a very difficult decision to make.



« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 01:43:21 AM by Register »
Sky
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Reply #95 on: October 20, 2008, 06:41:47 AM

Not that anyone should care, but I have had enough of the WAR experience.  I really, REALLY wanted to like this game, but it fails in several respects.  For me, the most significant ones are:

1.  The grind.  Just stupid in an RvR or PvP environment.  Discourages alts and switches between sides.  The PvE is just too weak.

2.  Population imbalances.  These affect gameplay in many different ways.  My experience was far too much "there are no open groups in your area" and dead ( I mean totally and completely dead) T1 and T2 RvR.

3.  Itemization.  I might be wrong here as I never got high enough to see what the end game gear would be like, but throughout the levels it was pretty much totally unexciting.  Why not offer more items that can be used by multiple classes, and offer differing stats on different items?  Even if not maximally effective for that class, some players like messing about with different equipment builds.  This just smacks of laziness in game build.  On a related note . . .

4.  Seeds.  Seriously, WTF is with all the damn seed drops, from level one on.  This is like a joke that got put in during alpha and they forgot to take it out.  A blood and guts, RvR kill-other-player game and the most frequent drop are seeds?  Christ, this makes the old "piece of bone" or "worn out shoe" look good in comparison.

I find it intersting that in cancelling, there was no space for "Tell us in 50 words of less why you are quitting" in the cancellation process.  I think every other MMOG I have quit in the last three years has had such a feedback option.  I guess Mythic must be of the opinion that it is not the game that failed, but me.

I am of the opinion that the population issues in their various forms, across sides, tiers and servers, will be the death knell of this game.  Which is too bad, since there is evidently a great mass of people looking for an alternative to WoW.  Of course, YMMV.
This is more than 50 words.

rk47
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Reply #96 on: October 20, 2008, 07:37:14 PM

having to tank a lot in RvR is a frustrating experience, so i distracted 3 BWs by going in first with my shield up. They unload everything on me and naturally i died in 10 secs. And the witch elf in solo mode stealthed in during the 10 sec and took 2 of them out before dying to the 3rd. I gained 0 RP out of that. Final game score was around 30k XP and 4K RP for him while i'm staring at the bottom with 10k and 800 RP

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Lantyssa
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Reply #97 on: October 20, 2008, 08:08:22 PM

I know how you feel.  I'm one of the two people who guard the flag in Phoenix Gate.  If I'm lucky, they'll do a small push so I get some action.  Usually it's one person who sneaks by and I have to hunt down, or a full rush which steamrolls me in five seconds since I'm the only one they have to target.  The other fourteen minutes I'm twiddling my thumbs.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #98 on: October 21, 2008, 01:03:16 AM

As far as I can see, I'm the greatest tactical player on most of the Tier 2 maps on the Order side.

On Phoenix Gate, I scout to see which side the enemy is going to come from.

On Morkain Temple, I sometimes go around the temple the other side to catch the Destro team from behind (which is usually where the artifact is).

In both cases my ShaWar is going to get steamrolled real quickly on being discovered, but goddammit, is it really that hard to think about what the map objective is to try to help your team?

lac
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Reply #99 on: October 21, 2008, 01:25:02 AM

Going around the temple is clearly an exploit. You are supposed to zerg it out in front why so serious?
I usually try with a 'let's go round the back' or 'let's try to do this or that' after a respawn and see if anybody picks up on it. If they do great, if they don't I go zerg with the rest of the rabble. It's not much fun being the only one trying to do something sensible in a scenario.
rk47
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Reply #100 on: October 21, 2008, 02:54:46 AM

As far as I can see, I'm the greatest tactical player on most of the Tier 2 maps on the Order side.

On Phoenix Gate, I scout to see which side the enemy is going to come from.

On Morkain Temple, I sometimes go around the temple the other side to catch the Destro team from behind (which is usually where the artifact is).

In both cases my ShaWar is going to get steamrolled real quickly on being discovered, but goddammit, is it really that hard to think about what the map objective is to try to help your team?
Buddy I carried the damn flag in T4 twice, capped it two of three tries. And I still get rock bottom RP and EXP. Win or lose. So there's very little reward for doing the objective itself.

 It seems they want my chosen to stand in front and spam damage + kills. Maybe I should reroll healer/dps since my buddy same level as me was getting 20k EXP and 3k RP cause he was hitting 150k heals regularly.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Miasma
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Reply #101 on: October 21, 2008, 05:05:43 AM

Going around the temple is clearly an exploit. You are supposed to zerg it out in front why so serious?
I usually try with a 'let's go round the back' or 'let's try to do this or that' after a respawn and see if anybody picks up on it. If they do great, if they don't I go zerg with the rest of the rabble. It's not much fun being the only one trying to do something sensible in a scenario.
If the people who always zerg head on at least focused on the guy that is A COLUMN OF LIGHT instead of whoever the fuck is closest to them it wouldn't be so bad, but they don't.  It's so frustrating when I'm the only guy who goes to attack the single enemy player that matters.
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Reply #102 on: October 21, 2008, 06:18:11 AM

As far as I can see, I'm the greatest tactical player on most of the Tier 2 maps on the Order side.

On Phoenix Gate, I scout to see which side the enemy is going to come from.

On Morkain Temple, I sometimes go around the temple the other side to catch the Destro team from behind (which is usually where the artifact is).

In both cases my ShaWar is going to get steamrolled real quickly on being discovered, but goddammit, is it really that hard to think about what the map objective is to try to help your team?
Buddy I carried the damn flag in T4 twice, capped it two of three tries. And I still get rock bottom RP and EXP. Win or lose. So there's very little reward for doing the objective itself.

 It seems they want my chosen to stand in front and spam damage + kills. Maybe I should reroll healer/dps since my buddy same level as me was getting 20k EXP and 3k RP cause he was hitting 150k heals regularly.

I agree. I should have added to my post "And by doing this, I'm not doing DPS which in turn drops my scenario score. So I should just stand back and fire into the crowd, regardless of what is actually going on."

HaemishM
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Reply #103 on: October 21, 2008, 09:02:56 AM

In both cases my ShaWar is going to get steamrolled real quickly on being discovered, but goddammit, is it really that hard to think about what the map objective is to try to help your team?

Yes. Flanks do not exist. Rear attacks are for homos.
 awesome, for real

I saw this a lot in Mourkain Temple. Everyone would just funnel through the meat grinder corridor in front of the temple. Maybe 1-3 people at most during the scenario would try to flank around instead of going through the obvious channel.


Khaldun
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Reply #104 on: October 21, 2008, 10:06:04 AM

I was a constant flanker in Phoenix Temple and often either a) got the flag or b) stopped the enemy flag carrier because of it. So why don't many people do it? Because it's not rewarding in concrete terms. You're often too far away from kills to get XP or RP, if you do get the flag, you had better hope you don't need support because most of the time it's not forthcoming, if you run into an organized group on the other side, you're going to get killed a lot while everyone else on your team grinds unhappily away in the crush of the middle.

Same for defending the flag, which I also do quite often.

You have to just care more about winning the scenario for the sake of winning than you do XP or RP. Which is annoying, but I'm not sure what the alternative is. If you got big rewards for being the flag-carrier, then every idiot in the world would be grabbing at the thing even if it was an inevitably doomed attempt or if it was a glass cannon trying to do it.
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