I'm Out

[Righ]

Seriously, I have a sub and a level 8 Runepriest. I just could not be fucked leveling him. They killed the game for me with this grind.

How on earth did you find the game to be grindy at level 8? If you do the first dozen or so quests, the first public quest, pop down to the warcamp and do the scouting missions in the RvR area and the first scenario that you're offered, you're most of the way there.

[rk47]

Seriously, I have a sub and a level 8 Runepriest. I just could not be fucked leveling him. They killed the game for me with this grind.

How on earth did you find the game to be grindy at level 8? If you do the first dozen or so quests, the first public quest, pop down to the warcamp and do the scouting missions in the RvR area and the first scenario that you're offered, you're most of the way there.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAH wtf . grind at 8. holy fuck. Go back to Guild Wars seriously. I' don't even think I had a problem hitting lvl 5-10 in a good day. The grind only starts past 20. Even my friend who couldn't stand asian grind managed to scenario queue his way to 11 and he said he had a blast before the warpers ruined it for him.

Swordmasters ? Why are they so fucked up?
I stopped at 38. I can't stand it in RvR. Mythic don't really know what to do with this guy, you're stuck in a 1-2 step moves that had to be done before you could even use the crucial knockbacks and damage debuffs. The mastery tree balance is fucked. The tanking skills are too selfish compared to the rest of the tanks in game. Chosen had team aura. Black Orcs can buff his mates, Ironbreakers has shouts. Wtf can a Swordmaster do? Guard. Hold the Line. Standard tank toolkit. There had to be something messed up along the way when they patched the Empire Knight out of the game, because Swordmaster ended up like a half dps class wearing heavy armour but none of the dps numbers or tanking utilities to fit any role, don't even get me started on the dps mastery not giving the best dps among other trees. Most of their tactics points towards melee dps, but Mythic still slapped tank label on it, and gave it gimped dps gear and raped the lore with shield tree just to give order two tanks. One awesome and the other broken.

[Tarami]

How on earth did you find the game to be grindy at level 8? If you do the first dozen or so quests, the first public quest, pop down to the warcamp and do the scouting missions in the RvR area and the first scenario that you're offered, you're most of the way there.

I see where he's coming from, to be honest. If anytime along the way think "Nah, that sounds boring, I'd rather do something else", you're fucked. The content that gives you decent XP is spread so thin that you need to do every single quest in one pairing to actually get somewhere, especially as most quests are arranged as longer chains, so if you skip one, you're potentially missing out on another 2 or 3. This comes into effect really early actually, especially if you're levelling in the dwarf zones. Maybe not as early as 8, but it's noticeable far earlier than 20.

This may be the case also in older MMOs, but recent years have spoiled us with having a plethora of quests and achievements to complete for decent XP. Mostly you have more quests than you can carry. Also, "cross-levelling" by going to same-levelled zones of other pairings is really unsatisfying to me. It just enhances the sense of grind.

[slog]

Seriously, I have a sub and a level 8 Runepriest. I just could not be fucked leveling him. They killed the game for me with this grind.

How on earth did you find the game to be grindy at level 8? If you do the first dozen or so quests, the first public quest, pop down to the warcamp and do the scouting missions in the RvR area and the first scenario that you're offered, you're most of the way there.

I never made it past level 8 in the beta.  Once I realized how awfu and unfun leveling was at 8 I could just imagine how bad it could be at 30.

[amiable]

This game really is for the PvP-fanatics.   I really do not mind the leveling curve at all, but since I level entirely by scenario/open-world pvp, I may have a bit of a different take on it.  Then again, I'm the kind of guy who doesn't mind running a map a zillion times, as long as I get to play against different opponents, so I can understand folks frustrations. 

*Crosses fingers and hopes the guild is still around in a month when he and sianne get back from their honeymoon*.

I have to say though, leveling healers/tanks via PvE is total ass. I'm glad I have a T4 viable healer now, because the thought of not being able to level one via PvP chills my bones.  I started a withchunter alt to fulfill my solo PvE needs (which I am actually having quite a fun time with).   

[raydeen]

I've been slow to level (level 9 or 10 right now with Astrydd the Shadow Warrior) but I'm having a damn good time with it. Actually killed another player out in the Bone Wastes (I think that's the name - south of the High Elf war camp). Lil' Sorceress thought she could take me.  And the mix of PvE, PQ, Scenario, etc. keeps it fresh. Heck, I even had one really cool bug hit me when I signed up for Khaines Embrace and got dropped into a level 20ish scenario. I was doing some good damage too thanks to the scale up. Kinda funny being Rank 2 with a bunch of high Rank 20+ people. Don't remember the scenario name but it was all snowy. There are some definite downsides to WAR right now, but it's been the first PvP game since UT 99 I've ever enjoyed and felt that I could participate in.

[Hayduke]

I think the scenarios would be a pretty interesting part of the game if they were being used as intended, as sort of a casual thing to do a couple times a night if you were short on time.  But everyone's going there because it's the place to grind for xp/reknown, you can find balanced fights, and you can find fights period.  So everyone just goes there and grinds.  So much of a PvP game depends on the playerbase not being lame.  But I don't blame the players for being lame, I blame Mythic in not recognizing that the players would be lame without mechanisms and rewards against it.

[rk47]

I think so too, the rewards from Mourkain is just too good to be skipped. The amount of renown and exp rewarded from kill 25 & participation is quite sizable (around 3000 EXP). That plus 5000-10000, depending on how good your scenario went within 15 minutes is enough to blow any PVE / PQ quest reward out of the water.

[Righ]

I see where he's coming from, to be honest. If anytime along the way think "Nah, that sounds boring, I'd rather do something else", you're fucked. The content that gives you decent XP is spread so thin that you need to do every single quest in one pairing to actually get somewhere, especially as most quests are arranged as longer chains, so if you skip one, you're potentially missing out on another 2 or 3. This comes into effect really early actually, especially if you're levelling in the dwarf zones. Maybe not as early as 8, but it's noticeable far earlier than 20.

Have you played WoW? It is considered one of the least 'grindy' MMORPGs around, and you just described it. I think that any time you set out in a game to be the maximum level before you will have your fun, you're setting yourself up for a bad time. Either you enjoy the game getting there or you don't. And if you don't, why bother?

Tempting though the 'prize' of 'endgame' may be in an MMORPG, you're supposed to stop and look at the scenery on the way there. I'm prepared to stop, play another character and group with other people on their new characters along the way because I'm playing the game for fun, and I get the fun at any level. I suspect that at some point, I'll have one or more level 40, renown 80 characters, but its not a hard objective so long as I'm having fun.

If you find it to be a grind at level 8, its definitely not your game, and its even probable that MMORPGs are not your game. Run away.

Fake edit: As for XP rates, 'skirmish' or 'open field' RvR is seriously lacking for a game that needs to have players constantly participating in it. Quests, not so much. I can make twice the XP in the same period (5-10 minutes) as I could running a winning scenario. You have to kill mobs at least 2 levels higher than you, so this may be a limiting factor for some classes, but its cake for tanks. Its just not as fun, because in a scenario you're playing with somebody else. Buddying up for questing though and you can still rip through XP (likely not quite as efficiently as a tank with 2h weapon solo) and do some fun stuff along the way such as killing named champions for creature tactic unlocks.

[Nebu]

I think so too, the rewards from Mourkain is just too good to be skipped. The amount of renown and exp rewarded from kill 25 & participation is quite sizable (around 3000 EXP). That plus 5000-10000, depending on how good your scenario went within 15 minutes is enough to blow any PVE / PQ quest reward out of the water.

I'd much rather play Phoenix gate and the lack of participation due to this is what kills me.  PG is so much more open and allows for a wider variety of gameplay.  Mourkain is just an in-your-face-zergfest not to mention a LoS mess for anyone that depends on it.  I won't even get into the lag issues. 

[Numtini]

I realy enjoy PG, but its about half the xp and renown at the moment for twice as long a match because it almost always goes to timer.

[rk47]

Righ, head over to Open RvR server and see what happens when 1 tier above can go down to lower tier to RvR. I had some instance of defending a T1 objective with a healer and fellow tank. We both guarded each other and skirmished with them while the T1 NPC Objective guards provide us cover.
I mean, yeah it's probably more exciting and shit, but to the outnumbered side they'll just stick to warcamp and scenario grind to avoid being zerged while going out there. But I think people want to Open RvR more but just not seeing enough reward for it. In Core servers, you're basicaly looking for a fight in the lakes. Flagging outside RvR zones is not very likely to get you a fight. I think the major conflict points in Core servers are usually Stone Troll Crossing where destro who wants to PVP had to cross over thru RVR just to get to their chapter 8-9 towns. And try taking a keep with 10 defender inside, i'm very sure you need more than 3x the numbers to take the keep. It's just too much of a hassle for 1200 RP and chance at chest loot.

[Righ]

Righ, head over to Open RvR server and see what happens when 1 tier above can go down to lower tier to RvR.

Why? I'm not sure where that's relevant to what I posted. I don't want to go to an Open RvR server. The rules are stupid.

Ah, is it because I said 'open field' RvR? That's another term Mythic use, like 'skirmish' or 'RvR lake'. Simply put, fighting other players outside a scenario.

[Slyfeind]

This is why I'm waiting to join WAR. If the only thing to do is wait for a PvP fight to happen, I can't imagine spending money for that. I can wait for things on my own time.

Its not. There are some extreme views here, and some people are to much of a MMO nerd to enjoy the fun (including me, and my nitpicking of this and that, but i'm having a blast), even if its right before them. (Not directed any any one person)

Such as? I'd mostly be interested in pursuing trade skills or exploring, but if we can at least grind money or faction and have it mean something, it would be enough to keep me occupied.

[slog]

Have you played WoW? It is considered one of the least 'grindy' MMORPGs around, and you just described it. I think that any time you set out in a game to be the maximum level before you will have your fun, you're setting yourself up for a bad time. Either you enjoy the game getting there or you don't. And if you don't, why bother?

If only they would stop designing games that way.  I think Blizzard got the message though.  You can level so freeking fast in WOW now....

Tempting though the 'prize' of 'endgame' may be in an MMORPG, you're supposed to stop and look at the scenery on the way there. I'm prepared to stop, play another character and group with other people on their new characters along the way because I'm playing the game for fun, and I get the fun at any level. I suspect that at some point, I'll have one or more level 40, renown 80 characters, but its not a hard objective so long as I'm having fun.

If you find it to be a grind at level 8, its definitely not your game, and its even probable that MMORPGs are not your game. Run away.

When the scenery sucks, it's not worth looking at.

[Righ]

Such as? I'd mostly be interested in pursuing trade skills or exploring, but if we can at least grind money or faction and have it mean something, it would be enough to keep me occupied.

I'm probably not the best person to recommend crafting - I think its crap. However, I also thought that crafting in SW:G was crap, and people tell me it was the best thing ever. I prefer the generic 'collect from node spawn, process raw material, save stacks of stuff that minimally impacts on bank space, make item' form of crafting - something to do medium term as a secondary mini-game. WAR's crafting is more time-consuming, plagued by item level requirements that impact the outcome in unexplained ways and doing it will consume all your bank space, and force you to participate the the slow-ass mail server mini-game as you hand off stuff that's currently too high level to mule characters for storage.

The exploring is fun. I'm very much an explorer - the whole thing is underpinned by the brilliant Tome of Knowledge which makes every discovery, kill and reward into an item in a collection and which builds up a story that's fairly good reading.

Grinding 'faction' in WAR is actually called 'influence' and its grouped by chapter. At 25%, 50% and 100% of the chapter's influence there are level appropriate item rewards. They are some of the best leveling equipment in the game, which is in some ways a shame, because the renown rewards actually should have at least parity through the levels (renown gear is good in tier 1 then worthless before the endgame, at which point some looks good and some is rotten). Getting influence is generally a good thing as you level then, but its not required since the green drops that show up on the auction house at little cost are generally good enough, especially for classes that are less gear-centric.

Whether the game is for you is hard to say - its definitely got its attractions and it has its flaws. Its not 'WoW with better PvP' that some evangelised it as, and which too many people were banking on. However, its a fun game for me and a subset of other MMO players.

[Mrbloodworth]

Have you played WoW? It is considered one of the least 'grindy' MMORPGs around, and you just described it. I think that any time you set out in a game to be the maximum level before you will have your fun, you're setting yourself up for a bad time. Either you enjoy the game getting there or you don't. And if you don't, why bother?

If only they would stop designing games that way.  I think Blizzard got the message though.  You can level so freeking fast in WOW now....

They have had four years to add content.

[HaemishM]

I think so too, the rewards from Mourkain is just too good to be skipped. The amount of renown and exp rewarded from kill 25 & participation is quite sizable (around 3000 EXP). That plus 5000-10000, depending on how good your scenario went within 15 minutes is enough to blow any PVE / PQ quest reward out of the water.

I'd much rather play Phoenix gate and the lack of participation due to this is what kills me.  PG is so much more open and allows for a wider variety of gameplay.  Mourkain is just an in-your-face-zergfest not to mention a LoS mess for anyone that depends on it.  I won't even get into the lag issues. 

QFT. Fuck's sake, Mourkain Temple is such LCD, meth head twitch fuck assy mcasstastic gameplay compared to either Phoenix Gate or Stone Troll Crossing. And people just keep doing it over and over because the rewards are so much quicker. They need to up open RVR, keep battles and the other scenarios xp rewards or seriosly diminsh Mourkain's rewards. It's just too crazy good.

[Zetor]

The problem with the other scenarios that require more thought / strategy [such as phoenix gate, khaine's embrace, half of tier3 and tier4] is that you usually end up royally screwed if you get in a bad pug and you find maybe 1-2 people other than you doing anything to achieve the objectives. In the end, it's safer to go for the meatgrinder scenarios, at least you know what you'll be getting.

It's the same thing in WOW. WSG has a lot more room for finesse than AV, but if you get in a bad group, you're going to be looking at a 50+ min turtle match in which both sides completely fail at getting anything accomplished. WAR has time limits to help this, but it doesn't solve the "I want to stab these people in the face with a rusty spork" problem.


-- Z.

[zubey]

Still enjoying the game here with a lvl 21 Squig Herder main and half-a-dozen alts lvls 5 through 14.

I think you have to enjoy scenario play in order to really like the game (at the levels I've played).  I definitely do; especially with a group of friends.

[Nebu]

I think you have to enjoy scenario play in order to really like the game (at the levels I've played).  I definitely do; especially with a group of friends.

The last bit is where the game shines.  Sadly, I prefer world pvp... I think incentivizing world pvp would go a long way toward improving this game as would limiting the dilution of the playerbase through the many varied scenarios.  As someone cited earlier (or in another thread) having players vote on a scenario and then having one pop for all players in that tier based on votes would help as well. 

[Draegan]

If the game released with a server without Scenarios I would of joined it.

[Rasix]

Am I the only person that really enjoys Mourkain?  I would be psyched if WoW had something similar (WSG without flags  ) except that it'd still be WoW pvp.

It's fast paced, full of action and it's never overly long.  Then again, I've always been more of a death match person.  Capture the flag or capture and hold really can be fine, but I like the flagfests.

[vex]

Am I the only person that really enjoys Mourkain?  I would be psyched if WoW had something similar (WSG without flags  ) except that it'd still be WoW pvp.

It's fast paced, full of action and it's never overly long.  Then again, I've always been more of a death match person.  Capture the flag or capture and hold really can be fine, but I like the flagfests.

I really enjoyed Mourkain Temple, Tor Anroc on the other hand I despise already and it's mostly due to the size.  The action can be pretty fast like Mourkain but depending on where the fighting is if you die twice you could miss half the scenario.  That to me is really frustrating.

[Mrbloodworth]

Am I the only person that really enjoys Mourkain?  I would be psyched if WoW had something similar (WSG without flags  ) except that it'd still be WoW pvp.

It's fast paced, full of action and it's never overly long.  Then again, I've always been more of a death match person.  Capture the flag or capture and hold really can be fine, but I like the flagfests.

I enjoy it, but it gets repetitive when its the only one that pops up all night.

[Nebu]

Mourkain favors dps classes.  There's no place to kite and lots of LoS for us healer types.  I don't enjoy the scenario because it offers no rewards for thinking outside the box.  It's just straight in-your-face, button-mashing action for 15 minutes.

[Mrbloodworth]

Mourkain favors dps classes.  There's no place to kite and lots of LoS for us healer types.  I don't enjoy the scenario because it offers no rewards for thinking outside the box.  It's just straight in-your-face, button-mashing action for 15 minutes.

I think thats why its popular. 

[veredus]

I enjoy it, but it gets repetitive when its the only one that pops up all night.

Not sure on your server but on Ulthuan (sp?) if I click join all since they added that then just leave Mourkaine queue either PG or STC pops pretty fast with PG the much more common. Before they added the join all button it was a lot harder to get into anything else. Also in T1 it's been nice since it's not all Nordenwatch now if you do the same thing.

[HaemishM]

Mourkain favors dps classes.  There's no place to kite and lots of LoS for us healer types.  I don't enjoy the scenario because it offers no rewards for thinking outside the box.  It's just straight in-your-face, button-mashing action for 15 minutes.

I think thats why its popular. 

And hence why I called it the meth head's LCD scenario. It's fine the first 10 times you do it. But it really is very much a repetitive scenario. Either tanks and melee dps form a chokepoint killing zone in the middle of the temple, or one side manages to pull the ball back towards their spawn zone and pick off those opponents foolhardy enough to walk into the death zone. Once one side reaches 100, it's generally not going to swing back the other way.

[Rasix]

You're just jealous of my ginormous DPS. #1 on the charts since level 14 

[Sjofn]

If the game released with a server without Scenarios I would of joined it.

No, you would HAVE or WOULD'VE. ARGH. 

[Nebu]

Can you imagine the xp grind without scenarios?  Would get ugly in off peak hours. 

Still, I'd love a server that weighted rvr more heavily... but I like the option of the faster pace in a scenario.  It's a nice palate cleanser.

[Calantus]

Seriously, I have a sub and a level 8 Runepriest. I just could not be fucked leveling him. They killed the game for me with this grind.

How on earth did you find the game to be grindy at level 8? If you do the first dozen or so quests, the first public quest, pop down to the warcamp and do the scouting missions in the RvR area and the first scenario that you're offered, you're most of the way there.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAH wtf . grind at 8. holy fuck. Go back to Guild Wars seriously. I' don't even think I had a problem hitting lvl 5-10 in a good day. The grind only starts past 20. Even my friend who couldn't stand asian grind managed to scenario queue his way to 11 and he said he had a blast before the warpers ruined it for him.

I was in beta so I knew what to expect later on. I got to level 8 just on "yay release" steam and just couldn't be fucked getting higher because I didn't want to get to the grind.

[schild]

Can you imagine the xp grind without scenarios?  Would get ugly in off peak hours. 

What? It's already ugly in off-peak hours.

[Nebu]

Can you imagine the xp grind without scenarios?  Would get ugly in off peak hours. 

What? It's already ugly in off-peak hours.

The statement was geared toward a potential server with no scenarios as an option.