1.01 Discussion

[Nebu]

Witchelves make scenarios decidedly unfun for cloth classes that don't have a guard bot.  If I don't have a group, I routinely get popped on by 2-3 of these stupid things and wtfpwned without the slightest ability to react.  I don't mind being beaten by a class, but being instagibbed by someone you never even saw just isn't fun.

Have I mentioned that I hate the addition of stealth to pvp games?

[Jimbo]

You should check out Battlefield Heroes for stealth done right.  But reading about WAR makes me not want to try this game, I like the idea of RvR, but hate the idea that I'll be the only n00b in 3 months when I finish the computers...  Why is Mythic always against fast leveling?

[schild]

The stealth here doesn't bother me. Witch Elves are dangerous motherfuckers to BWs, Arch Mages, and Shadow Warriors - no question. But they're supposed to be. They can't do a damn thing to a tank. And 2 of the 3 aforementioned classes can SHRED THEM if the witch elf doesn't get there first. Them and Witch Hunters EXIST to infiltrate and destroy the back line. Complaining about it is... well... kinda missing the point about the class.

But then, I bet witch elves bitch and moan when they get instagibbed by BWs and SWs also. So there's that. They don't get it either, I'm sure.

[Seanzor]

You should check out Battlefield Heroes for stealth done right.  But reading about WAR makes me not want to try this game, I like the idea of RvR, but hate the idea that I'll be the only n00b in 3 months when I finish the computers...  Why is Mythic always against fast leveling?

Well, in the case of WAR, leveling was slowed down right before release, and I imagine the reason was to try and shield the public from their endgame issues.  For instance, from what I've learned, PvP gear before renown rank 76/80 is worse than drops from the equivalent of a five-man dungeon.

Now onto my personal ax to grind: I've leveled characters before countless times, it's not fun, it will never be fun again, no matter how you do it.  Grinding, questing, PvPing - I do not care, gaining levels in a PvP game is awful.  And when leveling sucks, I can't bear the idea of leveling an alt, which kills PvP replayability for me.

Shadowbane is crap, but it has that issue right in its current form: takes like one day /played to get to cap (or close enough to it that it doesn't matter)

[kildorn]

Witch Elves can fuck up a tank pretty badly, really. But I don't really mind, since anyone can drop a witch elf if they see them coming. The stealth isn't that bad, and the longer they stay in it, the worse off they are opening the fight.

I think after reading and running theorycraft, I'm going back to a shadow warrior as my alt.

Because jesus CHRIST who made White Lions. They're worse in every possible metric compared to a Marauder, and in addition their pet has been eating paint chips when it was a kitten.

[Seanzor]

Because jesus CHRIST who made White Lions. They're worse in every possible metric compared to a Marauder, and in addition their pet has been eating paint chips when it was a kitten.

Imagine how bad the classes that were cut must have been, to be deemed worse than White Lions and Squig herders, which are both laughably useless classes.  How didn't they say 'boy, having a pet is like having sandpaper underwear, lets cut this pronto.'?

[schild]

Pet classes just suck, period.

[kildorn]

I'm having a hilarious conversation on the marauder boards about it.

They're saying a white lion outdamages a marauder if they'd just learn how to play.

My challenge: Make a 10s, 20s, or 30s damage rotation that outdamages a marauder, with any spec/tactics you want, assuming the pet works Flawlessly.

Best response? Demolition deals less damage than Slashing Blade!

Slashing Blade: 187 damage, 50 AP, 5s Cooldown

Demolition: 150 damage, 25 AP, No Cooldown.

They're right! It does do more damage on a single hit! And about a third the DPS and half the Damage per AP!

[Mrbloodworth]

Because jesus CHRIST who made White Lions. They're worse in every possible metric compared to a Marauder, and in addition their pet has been eating paint chips when it was a kitten.

Imagine how bad the classes that were cut must have been, to be deemed worse than White Lions and Squig herders, which are both laughably useless classes.  How didn't they say 'boy, having a pet is like having sandpaper underwear, lets cut this pronto.'?

I will gladly pit my squig herder VS. anything you want. 

But, they are a CC/DPS support class, not really 1 to 1 combatants.

[Seanzor]

I will gladly pit my squig herder VS. anything you want. 

But, they are a CC/DPS support class, not really 1 to 1 combatants.

From what I've observed, squig herders drop about as fast as a BW/Sorc (discounting the kill-yourself mechanic of those classes), do *much* less damage, and their only CC is a knockback, whereas Sorc/BW have root (and, frankly, most classes have knockbacks).  What's the, uh, upside to playing a squig herder, not even factoring in pet bugs?

[Fraeg]

they are a really fun class to play.   

seriously, in beta it was the class i had the most fun with when not anywhere near pvp/rvr.

but the splinters in my ass from pvp got to me so now i play a witch hunter.

[Mrbloodworth]

I will gladly pit my squig herder VS. anything you want. 

But, they are a CC/DPS support class, not really 1 to 1 combatants.

From what I've observed, squig herders drop about as fast as a BW/Sorc (discounting the kill-yourself mechanic of those classes), do *much* less damage, and their only CC is a knockback, whereas Sorc/BW have root (and, frankly, most classes have knockbacks).  What's the, uh, upside to playing a squig herder, not even factoring in pet bugs?

We also have various slows, from the herder, and the pet (Pet has AOE slow, or AOE Damage, from its position) as well as arrow shots the can be completed while moving (2 by level 10, one, unblockable). Not to mention that each pet give a different utility depending on what type you have out.

Squig herder survival depends on movement (in and our between melee, and ranged range, and tag teaming with the pet), positioning of the pet (if they listen) and CC ability's and DOT's. Simply put, to kill a squig herder, you have to catch a squig herder, and he will be damaging you while he is moving. Not including the pet, and what ever type he has out.

They are incredible fun to play, are are a very useful class in groups as a support type. I am still not sure what the hell the squig armor does, at all, but i figure that may come with levels/mastery.

IMO.

[kildorn]

Across the board, SH skills deal less damage than the exact same SW skill.

Why? Because the pet makes up for it!

While sane on paper, it makes them shitty.

White Lions were a bit better back when the lion had no cooldown on death, he was used the same way squigs are: harassment of a healer. They added the cooldown because White Lions should totally not be using their pet as a suicide distraction. 

[schild]

The upside to playing a squig herder is you remind Shadow Warriors that they have no equal in the game at the upper tiers.

[Mrbloodworth]

The upside to playing a squig herder is you remind Shadow Warriors that they have no equal in the game at the upper tiers.

Ill comment on that when i get there.

used the same way squigs are: harassment of a healer.

Your doing it wrong.

[Seanzor]

Not too hard to catch a squig herder - just have to get within 100 feet.  That is, of course, speaking for good classes, instead of the craptastic MDPS classes. 

I have no idea how mythic decided that witch hunters (and, I'm guessing, Witch Elves) are fine.  Same DPS as a Bright Wizard, but they have to get in melee range to do it.  That coupled with having less survivability (no root, no detaunt) makes it *so* obvious that MDPS is utter crap.

So, I'll amend my statement: MDPS and squig herders are junk classes that no one should be playing.  At least MDPS has the ability to be useful by being a kill-the-BW suicide bomber, but dying six or seven times in a scenario makes it pretty hard to get xp, so that's more of a punishment than a feature.

Plus - dude, who doesn't have snares?

edit: note that any suggestion of an insult in this post, or any other, should be considered to be directed squarely at Mythic - they designed the damn classes.

[Mrbloodworth]

Not too hard to catch a squig herder - just have to get within 100 feet.  That is, of course, speaking for good classes, instead of the craptastic MDPS classes. 

I have no idea how mythic decided that witch hunters (and, I'm guessing, Witch Elves) are fine.  Same DPS as a Bright Wizard, but they have to get in melee range to do it.  That coupled with having less survivability (no root, no detaunt) makes it *so* obvious that MDPS is utter crap.

So, I'll amend my statement: MDPS and squig herders are junk classes that no one should be playing.  At least MDPS has the ability to be useful by being a kill-the-BW suicide bomber, but dying six or seven times in a scenario makes it pretty hard to get xp, so that's more of a punishment than a feature.

Plus - dude, who doesn't have snares?

edit: note that any suggestion of an insult in this post, or any other, should be considered to be directed squarely at Mythic - they designed the damn classes.

I will simply just disagree. Also, i don't have snares (well i do) my pet does, i do not need to be anywhere near the group im about to snare, my pet is. If you cant see how this is a powerful ability in RvR, i don't know what to tell ya. I have used it may times to slow entire groups long enough to shoot them from a distance, and let the rest of the troops catch up, and beat them down. It can even be used offensively. A lot of the trick to a squig herder is use of your surroundings and choke points ETC..and the fact that we can move almost constantly.

Maybe its because i normally play pet classes, and CC classes that i think beyond "Skill does X damage", but Squig herders have a lot of utility. Right now i play a DoK, and a herder, and i like my herder more, mostly due to utility.

1 on 1, yes, squig herders go down, they have incredibly utility in RvR and groups however. Its not the class for anyone who wants to top the leader boards, but its more for people who enjoy supporting the group/raid/RvR.

I would also like to note, that its not that i do not think SH need some love, its just i think many are miss judging them.

[Seanzor]

I don't want to come off like a prick, but the only CC that's been brought up is the knockback (common, common ability), and your pet-delivered snare, which you tout as being great because of the range.

Anyone can have a ranged aoe snare.  The basic, craptastic snare potions are 20%.  And, really, what good is a snare going to be in a keep siege, which is basically two big groups, standing still, pressing keys at each other?

And, frankly, any ranged class (keep in mind, I consider these to be the *good* classes - melee gets shit on in this game) focuses on use of their surroundings and choke points, etc... and can move almost constantly.  BWs pump out virtually all of their damage via instant-casts; as an AM I have only one damaging spell with a cast time, and I rarely use it, and I haven't been out-damaged in Tor Anroc in multiple character levels spent exclusively doing Tor Anroc (I would not be able to do this with another class, save for, maybe, BW).

It just makes no sense.  As an AM, I do more damage while healing, have access to two knockbacks (one a 100-foot range, aoe on a 20-second CD) an aoe 60% snare in a 30 or 45 foot radius, and huuge aoe debuffs (-100 str/int/toughness/ballistics in a 30/45 foot radius for 20s, no CD, no cast time at level 30).

Maybe AMs and BWs just need the ol' nerf stick.

I'm not railing on you, I'm railing on the awful design of classes that aren't AM/BW/healer/tank (and their destro equivalents).

[kildorn]

The upside to playing a squig herder is you remind Shadow Warriors that they have no equal in the game at the upper tiers.

Ill comment on that when i get there.

used the same way squigs are: harassment of a healer.

Your doing it wrong.

That's pretty much how every squig in the game winds up. Randomly chasing some healer for 5 minutes until it blows up when the herder finally uses an ability that requires it.

Across the board, Squig Herders simply deal less damage than Shadow Warriors. It's not even close.

[Lum]

as well as arrow shots the can be completed while moving (2 by level 10, one, unblockable).

Shadow Warriors have a whole tree devoted to on-the-move shots (Skirmish).

Squig Herders are the most underpowered class in Warhammer, by a long shot. Yes, they have some cool features, but they don't do nearly enough DPS and their utility features are all duplicated by other classes with better DPS or core features.

If Squig Herders had the raw DPS of Engineers they'd be closer to parity. But they don't.

[Nebu]

Complaining about it is... well... kinda missing the point about the class.

But then, I bet witch elves bitch and moan when they get instagibbed by BWs and SWs also. So there's that. They don't get it either, I'm sure.

There's a huge difference here.  I can SEE every other class.  If they kill me, it's partly my own fault for not positioning myself better on the battlefield.  If I get killed by a stealther... well, there's no counter to invisibility.  Being alive one second and dead the next because someone can have initiative 100% of the time is a tad over the top.  Especially when playing a class that really has no way to peel for itself until level 18 or so (if you spec for it). 

I'm not complaining about dps.  I'm commenting that you can't balance initiative in a pvp game where one class on each side can run around invisible.  Especially one that has some of the best dps.

[Evildrider]

Squig herder and shaman were the only reason I would have rolled Destro.

Squig herder is pretty appealing.. and I'm tired of the damn horned squig punting me into lava!

[Xenomorph]

If I get killed by a stealther... well, there's no counter to invisibility. 

No idea how effective it is in numerical terms, but one of the things that willpower does is increase stealth detection.

[Lum]

Stealth is a cool idea in PvP games which ...doesn't work very well in practice.

"Hey, you always win, except when you always lose!"

[Evildrider]

Stealth is a cool idea in PvP games which ...doesn't work very well in practice.

"Hey, you always win, except when you always lose!"

At least they didn't go all AoC and give everyone stealth.  lol

[HaemishM]

Not too hard to catch a squig herder - just have to get within 100 feet.  That is, of course, speaking for good classes, instead of the craptastic MDPS classes. 

I have no idea how mythic decided that witch hunters (and, I'm guessing, Witch Elves) are fine.  Same DPS as a Bright Wizard, but they have to get in melee range to do it.  That coupled with having less survivability (no root, no detaunt) makes it *so* obvious that MDPS is utter crap.

Witch hunters have a detaunt that causes targets in 30 feet to do 50% less damage in melee too them. I do wish their armor was a bit tougher.

[Calandryll]

Squig herder and shaman were the only reason I would have rolled Destro.

Squig herder is pretty appealing.. and I'm tired of the damn horned squig punting me into lava!

Squid herders are a ton of fun, but there is no doubt they are the most underpowered of the classes. If you accept that, and focus on a few of roles (using knockback strategically, using squigs to distract casters, and using the snare at the right times) then it's a blast. If you expect to actually kill people and top the leaderboard, it rarely happens. :)

Played my SH (Nubnotdahface) to level 16 so far. The class has a ton of character. I think it's a testament to the flavor and feel of the class that I am still playing it. Now if the numbers would only get a bump.

[Mrbloodworth]

Squig herder and shaman were the only reason I would have rolled Destro.

Squig herder is pretty appealing.. and I'm tired of the damn horned squig punting me into lava!

Squid herders are a ton of fun, but there is no doubt they are the most underpowered of the classes. If you accept that, and focus on a few of roles (using knockback strategically, using squigs to distract casters, and using the snare at the right times) then it's a blast. If you expect to actually kill people and top the leaderboard, it rarely happens. :)

Played my SH (Nubnotdahface) to level 16 so far. The class has a ton of character. I think it's a testament to the flavor and feel of the class that I am still playing it. Now if the numbers would only get a bump.

I guess thats basically my stance. I play them as a support/cc class, with no need to be top of the charts. The class is sweet, and i won't turn down any numbers adjustments. I just don't agree that they are "Sucky" or "Crap", for much the same reasons as you.

That, and i duo with my girls shaman with that character.

[Draegan]

The new build keeps moving my chat windows every time I re-log. Annoying.

The old build did that for me. The new one doesn't.

Same as Schild.

[Xenomorph]

Witch hunters have a detaunt that causes targets in 30 feet to do 50% less damage in melee too them. I do wish their armor was a bit tougher.

I'm guessing that Mythic balanced around the idea of organized PvP groups, in particular the idea of a tank with Guard for each dps class. In a will-be-standard 3-man band of IB-WH-RP, WHs are insane. (In disorganized PUG play, teaming up with another WH and blowing up whoever's at the back of the pack seems to be the most effective strategy.)

[Seanzor]

Witch hunters have a detaunt that causes targets in 30 feet to do 50% less damage in melee too them. I do wish their armor was a bit tougher.

Ahh, that's definitely good, then.  Now, if only they had more DPS than their ranged equivalent!

[Nebu]

Don't witchelves have a really low crit rate against them as well?  This will turn out very helpful in the endgame where spike damage is king.

[Seanzor]

One very big glaring imbalance that I forgot about, as an Archmage:
So, while having the most damage in the scenario, almost every time, and also throwing out frequent heals and aoe debuffs, I have the ability to instantly resurrect my buddies (which I do, frequently.  I'll instant-rez an average of about 5 times when I'm not just rolling solo).  I'd call that the best utility a class can offer, why do I have the ability to do that with everything else amazing that my class/spec has going for it? 

Also forgot to hammer on my great survivability in that I never need to be closer than 100 feet to the enemy cluster, so the only threat to me is a witch elf; easily handled by knocking them back, HoTing myself up while standing still and waiting for their dps-while-I-move to wear off.  Toss in my detaunt, wait for my team to gib them - easy.  I don't even need to stop lacquering the enemy team with my absurd AoE DoT (which accounts for ~85% of my damage and also lowers damage and crit chance of affected targets by 5% each). 

Nerf my class, it's busted.

[Lakov_Sanite]

single best morale rank one in the game is the chosens 10sec unbreakable root that roots you can the target in place. I can't even begin o describe how strategically useful this is, nor can i ever hope it won't get nerfed somehow.

I mean the overall pvp mechanics, as in players fighting players in groups, I think is something mythic actually did really well so for the numerable faults that will probably insure I'm not playing this game in another month or two when I'm actually there in the scenario(a good one) it's a blast.

[Ingmar]

Complaining about it is... well... kinda missing the point about the class.

But then, I bet witch elves bitch and moan when they get instagibbed by BWs and SWs also. So there's that. They don't get it either, I'm sure.

There's a huge difference here.  I can SEE every other class.  If they kill me, it's partly my own fault for not positioning myself better on the battlefield.  If I get killed by a stealther... well, there's no counter to invisibility.  Being alive one second and dead the next because someone can have initiative 100% of the time is a tad over the top.  Especially when playing a class that really has no way to peel for itself until level 18 or so (if you spec for it). 

I'm not complaining about dps.  I'm commenting that you can't balance initiative in a pvp game where one class on each side can run around invisible.  Especially one that has some of the best dps.

You're playing a RP right? I haven't had a terrible time with getting insta-gibbed from stealth by witch elves. Even with the opener and surprise it takes them a while to burn through all the self-healing and stuff, long enough that I can get help pretty often. Granted if they ambush me in Mourkain I'm dead just about every time, but that's because I lag too much in that zone and can't react as fast.