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f13.net General Forums => Warhammer Online => Topic started by: schild on October 02, 2008, 02:34:27 AM



Title: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 02:34:27 AM
http://herald.warhammeronline.com/warherald/NewsArticle.war?id=338

Quote
Warriors of Order and Destruction,

Welcome to the war-torn battlefields of the Age of Reckoning! My name is Destin Bales, and I'm the Live Producer for Warhammer Online. It's my job to ensure that we successfully make the transition from one of the smoothest launches in MMO history, to offering one of the most exhilarating and memorable gaming experiences you've ever had.

Now that WAR is living and breathing, we have players all across the globe battling it out in a relentless and brutal struggle to claim victory for their realms. Playing and improving Warhammer Online is a journey that we share with you, own with you, and drive forward together as a team. Our beta testers can attest to just how much we value your opinion, and you’ll see this reflected in all that we do, even within a small maintenance patch such as this.

In fact, we've already made a number of improvements since launch to ensure that your gameplay experience is even better. Since Warhammer Online went live, we've identified and fixed several client crash issues, knocked out reported bugs on numerous quests, added a feature that allows players to queue for same-tier scenarios in other racial pairings, and rooted out hordes of gold farmers in game. These are just a few of the hundreds of small but impactful fixes we've made daily over the past week and a half.

Our maintenance patch 1.01 contains enhancements and fixes that you have rightly identified and brought to the forefront of our attention. Target Nearest has been revamped, the pesky “Target Out of Range” bug has been squashed, we’ve fixed bugs with /ignore and your friends list, resolved an issue with disappearing pet windows on zoning - and more!

To all of the players who take the time to report issues and send feedback we'd like to say a big "Thank you!" and we hope you like the changes we're making to improve the game. Please keep it up!  We'll be depending on your input as we chart the course for the future of WAR.

After over three years in development, the Age of Reckoning has finally arrived. But if you think this is the end of the journey, think again, because this WAR is just getting started!

WAR is everywhere, and we couldn’t be more excited.
- Destin Bales, Live Producer


    * Players no longer need to scroll down through the EUALA when logging into the game. The window now defaults to the bottom, and players need only check the Agreement box and click accept.

    * The war against the gold sellers continues! We have made improvements to the Appeal system to allow players to report spam messages from gold sellers more quickly.

    * TAB-targeting should now more consistently select the nearest enemy in the player's field of view.

    * Corrected an issue that was preventing players from adding new friends to their friend list even while the number of existing friends was below the list's size limit.

    * Fixed the issue that was causing players to sometimes get stuck in a particular animation state.

    * Monsters which change velocity while moving in combat should no longer return “Target is Out of Range” sometimes when attacked by players.

    * The /ignore command will now work more consistently.

    * In response to player feedback, we have made improvements to player pet movement and behaviors.

    * The Pet window should no longer disappear when its master is zoning or entering the game.

    * We made many UI fixes including a new "autoloot" feature requested by many players.

    * Guild cloaks will now display their heraldry properly.

    * We have made several improvements to the chat window, and it should now be more intuitive to use and set up.  A number of chat window issues were resolved in the process. We are continuing to work on your requests about chat, with more improvements to come in the future.

Combat and Careers

Shaman

    * The debuff from "Hurts, Don't It" will no longer stack with itself

Content

    * We have identified a couple of serious bugs that trivialize the content in the Lost Vale dungeon. We have disabled the dungeon entrance while we investigate these issues. Thank you for your understanding as we work to improve your in game experience!

    * The Public Quest "Wagon Defense" will no longer get stuck because of objectives spawning in trees.

    * Fixed a bug in the "Wagon Defense" quest

    * The quest “Killing Time” should now allow players to gain credit when killing enemy characters in the Stone Troll Crossing scenario.

    * Lorcar Perrithan no longer offers the quest “Phoenix Gate”. Players can now obtain this quest from the Uthorin Warscout.

    * The Gunbad instance lockouts will now be 30 minutes instead of 24 hours.

    * Fixed an issue that was preventing Erikwuf Wrathbound from offering the "Good Will" quest.

    * Some monsters have been identified that were dropping Destruction items for Order players. These monsters will now drop Order items for Order players.

    * Fixed an issue with the spawning of burning bushes in the "Rewards for the Faitfhful" quest.


    * Player pets have learned to behave themselves. They should now listen to their masters and stay focused while in combat with monsters, rather than dancing erratically. In addition, they should follow obediently at their masters’ side rather than spinning around.

    * Monsters that are rooted in place will no longer appear to chase you if you flee from them, even though they are still rooted.

    * Continued improvements have been made to client stability and performance.

    * We have fixed an issue that was awarding an overly large experience bonus to players who killed many monsters in rapid succession (IE, several killing blows within a second or two of each other). This will largely only affect small groups that use AE abilities to kill off a very large number of monsters with a single ability activation.

    * Fixed an issue that would sometimes cause roots to last longer than they should.

    * The delay between sending multiple mails has been reduced from 20 seconds to 5 seconds.


White Lion

    * Fixed an issue that was allowing players to use the "Pounce" ability without an enemy target. The ability now requires an enemy target to jump towards.

    * A feature has been added to User Settings which allows players to auto loot corpses by default. Players can enable this feature by selecting the “always auto loot” option, under the game play section. Please note that holding shift while looting with the option enabled will cause you to loot normally. When the option is disabled, shift-loot will still auto loot all.

    * Guild cloaks will now retain heraldry settings through zoning.

    * Corrected an issue that was preventing players from adding new friends to their friend list even while below the list's size limit.

    * Improvements to the behavior of TAB-targeting. This should now more accurately target the nearest enemy in the player's field of view.

    * The /ignore command will now work more consistently.

    * The Pet window should no longer disappear when zoning or entering the game.

    * In some cases, the chat window would reset to default position upon logout. This should no longer occur.

    * Resizing the chat window should no longer cause the chat window to reposition itself.

    * The text entry button is now colored to match the color of the channel the player is currently defaulting to for text entry.

    * Hitting enter no longer fades in the entire chat window, instead it just fades the text entry box.

    * Changing resolutions should no longer cause the chat tab labels to disappear.

    * If more chat tabs are created than the width of the chat window is able to display, then buttons allowing the player to scroll forward and backwards through the chat tabs will appear.

    * When resizing the chat window, players will now get a resizing cursor.

    * Left-clicking on the chat window now causes it to fade immediately.

    * When dragging a chat tab off of the chat window players will now get a “phantom chat tab” until they release the mouse button, instead of creating and dragging the new tab immediately.

    * When docking one chat window to another, an arrow indicator is now displayed on the chat tab listing which indicates where in the order of chat tabs the tab will now be placed.

    * When creating a new tab, the properties of the new tab are cloned from the original tab chosen.  For example, using New Tab on the Combat tab menu creates a Combat(1) tab with all the same filters and font settings of the original Combat tab.

    * Players will no longer be able to use the /petname command unless they have a White Lion out.

    * New Cycle Enemy Target action added as a handier version of Target Next Enemy. This action is bound to Tab by default; existing characters will not have their keybindings changed, so if you would like to use this action instead of Target Next Enemy with your current character, you will need to change this keybind.

    * Fixed an issue that was causing the health bar fade option to work incorrectly.

    * We have re-skinned the Guild Registrar interaction window.

    * Fixed an issue that was causing the health bar fade option to work incorrectly.

    * Many parts of the UI have been modified to fit localized text properly:

              - Quest Titles in the Quest Dialog window

              - Zone Names in the Zone Loading screen

              - The Title Bar in the Open Parties and Warband’s window

              - Tactic Names in the Guild Tactics store window

              - Zone Names in the Guild Roster tab of the Guild window

              - Permission Text in the Admin tab of the Guild window

              - Alliance Information in the Alliance tab of the Guild window

              - Requirement (Blue) Ability Tooltip text

    * Fixed an issue with chat text in localized versions of the game.

Can't complain, not enough nerfs or buffs though. Also, click the link, it quoted crappily.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 02:38:25 AM
Spoilers:
Nothing about DoKs or Black Orcs.
Nothing about Alliances.
Nothing about Warband windows.
Nothing about distances in destruction from murderballs.
Order will never get the murderball first ever again. Though, I wonder if /target <playername> would allow a white lion to target someone from across the arena)
Nothing about balance at all really. Shame.
Nothing about crashes or client speed.
Nothing about memory leak.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Wasted on October 02, 2008, 04:15:57 AM
Quote
* TAB-targeting should now more consistently select the nearest enemy in the player's field of view.

If they do get it better that will be absolutely fantatastic

Quote
* We made many UI fixes including a new "autoloot" feature requested by many players.

hard to give thanks for giving a pretty basic feature that should have been in at the start, but yay!

Quote
* The delay between sending multiple mails has been reduced from 20 seconds to 5 seconds.

A truely horrible stupid idea to punish 99% of the people using mail as intended to stop some in game mail spam.  Fix up the mail server too, its so slow opening and receiving items its still going to be frustrating as hell even without the 20 second delay on sending.  Same with the AH

Quote from: schild
Nothing about crashes or client speed.

Quote
* Continued improvements have been made to client stability and performance.





Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nija on October 02, 2008, 05:00:35 AM
Spoilers:
Nothing about DoKs or Black Orcs.

Nothing about Iron Breakers or Bright Wizards, either!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: rk47 on October 02, 2008, 05:49:31 AM
DoK's I don't really know much, but Black orc exploiting Da Toughest is getting old. It should've been fixed already by now.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on October 02, 2008, 06:05:53 AM
DoK's I don't really know much, but Black orc exploiting Da Toughest is getting old. It should've been fixed already by now.


Wait, I'm playing a black orc. What's the exploit beyond 25% proc might be a tad too much?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: waylander on October 02, 2008, 06:21:19 AM
Looks good BUT.........

1.
Alliances still don't work. You can only have 2 guilds in them. Coordinating multiple guilds via /tell officer 1,2,3 is bad.

2.
Renown gear in T3 is terrible and gear stats don't make sense on many items. In T3 you are forced to grind PQ's or quest chains to get "so-so" gear. Mount Gunbad gives decent stuff, but its tough to get in there efficiently due to all the mobs being champions.

3.
T3 EXP is still out of balance. Mobs give low exp, quests give low exp payout, scenario kill quests give low exp rewards.  Things supposedly pick up in T4, but for some reason T3 seems to be a major grind.

4.
Scenarios (MT in T2, and Tor Anroc in T3) are popular for a reason. You can complete both of them in under 15 minutes, and the other scenarios force you to play the entire time. If they want other scenarios to be more popular, there needs to be something put in there to help create a victory sooner.

5.
Keep Claiming/Upkeep isn't worth the cost. It was costing us 6 gold an hour to maintain a keep once we claimed it. Honestly, Keeps don't seem to be beneficial enough for us to pay that kind of gold at this point in time. If keep claiming was 1-6 G per day, then yeah that's more acceptable.


I like Warhammer, but T3 is making me want to go watch T.V. with my wife instead of play. Its that way because exp rewards are low, renown gear is terribad compared to PVE gear, and the PVE gear is very time consuming to get when I'll just need to upgrade in T4 anyway.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Wershlak on October 02, 2008, 06:23:16 AM
I played a black orc up to level 6 or so. Da Toughest tooltip said it would increase max hitpoints and heal by 12 when it procced. However, in game it was increasing max hitpoints and healing for 120. Maybe the tooltip is wrong but I doubt it.

I don't expect players to not use the ability if it is bugged and I wouldn't think black orc players are cheating somehow as some people seem to suggest.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Oz on October 02, 2008, 06:24:04 AM
Quote
Quote from: schild on Today at 03:38:25 AMSpoilers:
Nothing about DoKs or Black Orcs.

Nothing about Iron Breakers or Bright Wizards, either!

ssssshhhhhh!  These are not the Iron Breakers you are looking for...


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: rk47 on October 02, 2008, 06:41:10 AM
bad IBs really make the class look piss poor, but fighting alongside/against GOOD Ironbreakerss really make me respect the class as a whole. Compare that to the High Elf Swordmaster who are just minor annoyances, the Ironbreaker is the hard hitting tank that can't be ignored. Swordmaster does not have many 'activate on demand' abilties hence they're at a disadvantage.Tier unlocks from one attack to another means they can never open their attack with a knockback or a snare or a hard hit like Chosen's Tooth of Tzeentch, the king of train assist skill. This is my issue with the class as a whole hence I decided to respec him into a 'passive' offense types that are hard to kill instead of going two hander path that forces me to circle strafe like a nut to chain 3 hits in before the target warp past me.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 06:58:52 AM
Very little in the way of balance changes, mostly an overall update for the client interactions and player experience.

As for t3 leveling: I've been taking time off my WP due to this. I'm now in T4 quest wise in all three pairings, can't even see the influence rewards I'd be working towards due to level, at 28.8 or so. I just.. I don't wanna grind anymore PQs, and pvp is fucking frustrating at the best of times due to the class issues.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: cevik on October 02, 2008, 07:34:44 AM
I like Warhammer, but T3 is making me want to go watch T.V. with my wife instead of play. Its that way because exp rewards are low, renown gear is terribad compared to PVE gear, and the PVE gear is very time consuming to get when I'll just need to upgrade in T4 anyway.

I asked this before and got accused of trolling, but did they ever end up lifting that elder server NDA?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: tazelbain on October 02, 2008, 07:51:01 AM
Seems more like a victory lap than a patch.  You guys didn't win the race.  You started without your tires falling off and your engine lighting on fire.  Now the race is starting.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 08:36:23 AM
I like Warhammer, but T3 is making me want to go watch T.V. with my wife instead of play. Its that way because exp rewards are low, renown gear is terribad compared to PVE gear, and the PVE gear is very time consuming to get when I'll just need to upgrade in T4 anyway.

I asked this before and got accused of trolling, but did they ever end up lifting that elder server NDA?

There is nothing to NDA. The elder server does not exist anymore, forums closed, everything's gone. Beta over, NDA was for the beta.

What exactly are you after?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: cevik on October 02, 2008, 08:43:35 AM
I like Warhammer, but T3 is making me want to go watch T.V. with my wife instead of play. Its that way because exp rewards are low, renown gear is terribad compared to PVE gear, and the PVE gear is very time consuming to get when I'll just need to upgrade in T4 anyway.

I asked this before and got accused of trolling, but did they ever end up lifting that elder server NDA?

There is nothing to NDA. The elder server does not exist anymore, forums closed, everything's gone. Beta over, NDA was for the beta.

What exactly are you after?

I mean prior to launch.  Before launch did they lift the NDA that would have allowed people to talk about t3 and above experiences or is this another Tortage?  Because from here it looks like the parts of the game they allowed people to see prior to launch were "good" and so far everything else sucks, is grindy (sounds even more "grindy" than AoC) and is a big bait and switch, mostly untested and clearly unbalanced at that.

The point of course being that there were many a days where I saw nothing but page after page of the stupid tin foil hat emoticon for daring to suggest that there was a reason the elder server NDA wasn't lifted.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lum on October 02, 2008, 09:02:41 AM
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but "from here" for you is solely on what you read on message boards?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: amiable on October 02, 2008, 09:04:56 AM


Edit:  Being too mean to Cevik.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Righ on October 02, 2008, 09:06:36 AM
I see what Cevik is getting at now. I'm not convinced that they wanted to stop people from stating their opinion on the later parts of the game lest it might ruin their launch. While they may have had a few more unpleasant things written by dissatisfied former 'elders' I doubt it would have a huge impact on first month sales. Fact is, like most MMORPGs, they didn't write enough content (quests and zones in particular) in time for their launch and were unable to delay it for longer than they did. It took WoW years to fill some of the gaps (particularly Horde-side) where the game was too grindy, hopefully Mythic will be a bit quicker. The fact that you can go and kill players in scenarios to level up (albeit slowly) more than makes up for a lack of kill foozles and fedex quests as far as I'm concerned.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Riggswolfe on October 02, 2008, 09:08:36 AM
I mean prior to launch.  Before launch did they lift the NDA that would have allowed people to talk about t3 and above experiences or is this another Tortage?  Because from here it looks like the parts of the game they allowed people to see prior to launch were "good" and so far everything else sucks, is grindy (sounds even more "grindy" than AoC) and is a big bait and switch, mostly untested and clearly unbalanced at that.

The point of course being that there were many a days where I saw nothing but page after page of the stupid tin foil hat emoticon for daring to suggest that there was a reason the elder server NDA wasn't lifted.

I cannot and will not say anything about the Elder stuff. BUT, the grind and such from Tier 3 is solely the result of the XP nerf at the end of OB. Mythic is not hiding a lack of content, they simply nerfed XP to much.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 10:22:11 AM
I like Warhammer, but T3 is making me want to go watch T.V. with my wife instead of play. Its that way because exp rewards are low, renown gear is terribad compared to PVE gear, and the PVE gear is very time consuming to get when I'll just need to upgrade in T4 anyway.

I asked this before and got accused of trolling, but did they ever end up lifting that elder server NDA?

There is nothing to NDA. The elder server does not exist anymore, forums closed, everything's gone. Beta over, NDA was for the beta.

What exactly are you after?

I mean prior to launch.  Before launch did they lift the NDA that would have allowed people to talk about t3 and above experiences or is this another Tortage?  Because from here it looks like the parts of the game they allowed people to see prior to launch were "good" and so far everything else sucks, is grindy (sounds even more "grindy" than AoC) and is a big bait and switch, mostly untested and clearly unbalanced at that.

The point of course being that there were many a days where I saw nothing but page after page of the stupid tin foil hat emoticon for daring to suggest that there was a reason the elder server NDA wasn't lifted.

The Elder Server NDA had nothing to do with T3 or T4. Both could be discussed.

What was forbidden: Dungeon Content, City Raids, City Lord Raids, and the functional testing of the T4 "realm war" front lines concept.

Everything else was on the normal beta servers at any point, and fair game.

Riggs is correct, the reason T3 is fucked is the sudden xp change altered the curve and created an accidental dead zone. Additionally (IMO), there were too many "start with a fresh level X and play" phases and not enough "test the fucking leveling curve and how it actually plays out"


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: cevik on October 02, 2008, 10:40:27 AM
So then I take it the answer is "no, they never did lift the NDA?"

Thanks.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lum on October 02, 2008, 11:01:04 AM
So then I take it the answer is "no, they never did lift the NDA?"

So then I take it the answer to my question is "no, I'm just being a backseat dick in a thread discussing details of a patch for a game I don't play".

Cevik, I guarantee you I have infinitely more reasons to be pissy at Mythic than you do (hint: I got exactly two things from the EA buyout, and one of them was "jack") and I'm willing to judge the game itself on its merits.

You know, "game"? Thing which is "fun"? Thing which "occupies leisure time" that you don't "whine about in spams of nerd rage for months"?

Of course, I thought I got my money's worth from Age of Conan, too. I played it for a couple months, it stopped being fun, I stopped playing. You don't see me on Age of Conan threads gassing them up with "Did they ever fix necromancer pets to not suck? What? Months of development I'm not familiar with because I just act like a raging dick on message boards? Oh, I'll just ignore that." Mainly because, apparently unlike you, I'm not a raging cockmonster who sees message boards as one of the few ways to reinforce my flagging masculinity.

You don't like Warhammer and won't play it. Yay for Cevik! That takes a grand total of one (one) (if you're counting, it's the number before "two") (and after "zero") (and well before "three") (and infinitely less than "the number of posts Cevik makes trolling Warhammer threads") post to let your large cadre of fans know.

tl;dr version: Elf tits or gtfo.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: FatuousTwat on October 02, 2008, 11:03:07 AM
there were too many "start with a fresh level X and play" phases and not enough "test the fucking leveling curve and how it actually plays out"

This!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: cevik on October 02, 2008, 11:07:14 AM
You know, "game"? Thing which is "fun"? Thing which "occupies leisure time" that you don't "whine about in spams of nerd rage for months"?

Why does everyone assume that if you don't like a shitty game it's because you hate the company behind the game?

I have no hatred of Mythic.

And here are the elf tits you asked for:

(http://a769.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/70/l_50ea3a1a64ccc03f1acc29cd8d856830.jpg)


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: amiable on October 02, 2008, 11:07:43 AM
So then I take it the answer is "no, they never did lift the NDA?"

So then I take it the answer to my question is "no, I'm just being a backseat dick in a thread discussing details of a patch for a game I don't play".

Cevik, I guarantee you I have infinitely more reasons to be pissy at Mythic than you do (hint: I got exactly two things from the EA buyout, and one of them was "jack") and I'm willing to judge the game itself on its merits.

You know, "game"? Thing which is "fun"? Thing which "occupies leisure time" that you don't "whine about in spams of nerd rage for months"?

Of course, I thought I got my money's worth from Age of Conan, too. I played it for a couple months, it stopped being fun, I stopped playing. You don't see me on Age of Conan threads gassing them up with "Did they ever fix necromancer pets to not suck? What? Months of development I'm not familiar with because I just act like a raging dick on message boards? Oh, I'll just ignore that." Mainly because, apparently unlike you, I'm not a raging cockmonster who sees message boards as one of the few ways to reinforce my flagging masculinity.

You don't like Warhammer and won't play it. Yay for Cevik! That takes a grand total of one (one) (if you're counting, it's the number before "two") (and after "zero") (and well before "three") (and infinitely less than "the number of posts Cevik makes trolling Warhammer threads") post to let your large cadre of fans know.

tl;dr version: Elf tits or gtfo.

I love you.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lum on October 02, 2008, 11:10:24 AM
Why does everyone assume that if you don't like a shitty game it's because you hate the company behind the game?

I am not even trying to analyze WHY you are gassing up Warhammer threads. Did the Germans analyze why the Poles invaded Hungary? NO THEY DID NOT, BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE. I am simply reacting to the WHAT. I shall leave the WHY to your analyst and/or parole officer.

However, in your defense, you did deliver on elf cleavage. Although it's for a different game.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 11:11:51 AM
Also, there was no cleavage.

Only bone and malnutrition.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 11:12:19 AM
The elder NDA was lifted, I thought I had been clear on that by saying the elder server is completely gone, thus it can't exactly have an NDA, now can it. How can I help you with discussion on:

Dungeons, City Raids, City Lord Raids, and Realm War?

edit: Let's be absolutely clear here cevik: You're asking a random question. When it's clarified YOU HAVE NO FOLLOWUP RELEVANT QUESTION.

That's trolling. You don't have a fucking point, or you feel it's beneath you to actually make it. If you have a question, I'd be HAPPY to answer it, since I've been in the beta since it was 18 people online at peak (yay being friends with old higher ups), and can answer anything on any phase of the testing at this point.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: cevik on October 02, 2008, 11:14:18 AM
Why does everyone assume that if you don't like a shitty game it's because you hate the company behind the game?

I am not even trying to analyze WHY you are gassing up Warhammer threads. Did the Germans analyze why the Poles invaded Hungary? NO THEY DID NOT, BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE. I am simply reacting to the WHAT. I shall leave the WHY to your analyst and/or parole officer.

However, in your defense, you did deliver on elf cleavage. Although it's for a different game.

And the "what" is, the game is crappy, I said the game was crappy, I got lots of pictures of people in tin foil hats.  I said "I'll come back in a month".  Now that people are realizing the game is crappy here I am to point it out.

Ta da!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 11:15:04 AM
Why does everyone assume that if you don't like a shitty game it's because you hate the company behind the game?

I am not even trying to analyze WHY you are gassing up Warhammer threads. Did the Germans analyze why the Poles invaded Hungary? NO THEY DID NOT, BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE. I am simply reacting to the WHAT. I shall leave the WHY to your analyst and/or parole officer.

However, in your defense, you did deliver on elf cleavage. Although it's for a different game.

And the "what" is, the game is crappy, I said the game was crappy, I got lots of pictures of people in tin foil hats.  I said "I'll come back in a month".  Now that people are realizing the game is crappy here I am to point it out.

Ta da!

People are realizing that the game is crappy?

Shit, let me start a thread on this.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lum on October 02, 2008, 11:18:57 AM
And the "what" is, the game is crappy, I said the game was crappy, I got lots of pictures of people in tin foil hats.  I said "I'll come back in a month".  Now that people are realizing the game is crappy here I am to point it out.

Ta da!

Well, except for the game not being crappy, it not having been a month, and there not being this overwhelming pent up demand for your declamations on the game's crappiness in completely unrelated threads, sure, I see your point!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: cevik on October 02, 2008, 11:21:58 AM
People are realizing that the game is crappy?

30 seconds worth of cut and pasting:

Quote
Few more nights of not hitting flag runners and im out of here.  I hear aoc has fixed a lot of their problems and they already had a fun game to begin with.

Quote
I would imagine that they have until early November to get some of this stuff fixed. I cant think why November though...

Quote
You all know that I've been a fan of DAoC for 6 years.  I want this game to succeed.  I want it desperately.

Unless they slam the door on lag exploits, the people that have come to the game for accessible pvp will leave in droves.  I will be holding the door for them.

Quote
The targetting bug in melee is extremely annoying, especially if other targets are pounding on you. I had one point where one mob bugged while another shot me in the back, then i dragged that bugged mob to the mob shooting me, and that one bugged. Finally, I had them both unbugged, very little health, and somehow managed to beat them both up with about 100 health left.

Then a spider came out of nowhere, and bit me in the ass. I died, and the game crashed. If there was a queue, I might have cancelled right there.

Quote
I was on my BlackOrc as well, and noticed it on the range mobs too. It seemed to happen more when I moved up to them, and then tried to dmg-pull them back a bit (to try to avoid some bof/range aggro from friends.) I was pretty much unable to do that and once I moved further back out of range, the mob "warped back" to their starting position.

It looked to me like I was pulling them back, and my client was obliging, but (Little Britain voice) "the server said no." Perhaps there's some npc in-combat movement/location bugs?

Verra annoying.

Quote
I did some window dragging tests (outside of pvp, in a pve camp) and I was walking up damn near vertical inclines.  Without the dragging, I'd just be stuck at the bottom running in place.

For a PvP centric game, some of this shit needs some quick attention.

Quote
Stuff like the client forgetting there is a keep, and thus being able to walk/target through walls doesn't fill me with confidence in mythic's client skills.

Quote
Tier 3 isn't a social call, it's a long hard walk through mud and poorly designed scenarios and content.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 11:24:43 AM
So... that's summed up as 90% "man, lag issues suck in this engine", and 10% "Fixed this morning"?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lum on October 02, 2008, 11:25:36 AM
Holy crap, you're right! None of us are really enjoying the game and should cancel immediately!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 11:27:04 AM
Cevik, you really are an insufferable dickhead.

Also, you lack reading skills. Not Word One there was about the game being, as you so put it "crappy."

Go grind some purples in WoW.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: cevik on October 02, 2008, 11:27:17 AM
So... that's summed up as 90% "man, lag issues suck in this engine", and 10% "Fixed this morning"?

So now we agree it sucks, but for some reason we're supposed to ignore the sucky parts?

That worked well for AoC.  I think that's a good path for Mythic to follow too, surely it will end with money hats.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 11:28:26 AM
No one has said it sucks. Stop being a douchebag.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lum on October 02, 2008, 11:30:03 AM
Well, since this is a thread about today's 1.01 patch, maybe the patch suddenly made the game suck.

I hope not, I was enjoying sniping people with my Pew Pew Archer!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 11:31:33 AM
No point in talking to him. He can now only see WoW, Burning Region, and the Den of Iniquity.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 11:32:00 AM
He had one post in there saying he'd quit if the lag issues weren't fixed, give him credit.

Because at the FCC, we know that 1 message board complaint equals eight BILLION people.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Hawkbit on October 02, 2008, 11:42:47 AM
No point in talking to him. He can now only see WoW, Burning Region, and the Den of Iniquity.
rofl


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 11:44:34 AM
So being reported around is that 1.01 made one major change, and I have to say "what the SHIT, mythic?"

Apparently AE grinding mobs gives an experience penalty now.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Ingmar on October 02, 2008, 11:47:03 AM
Gives an experience penalty, or fixes the thing where killing several simultaneously sent your 'killing spree' bonus sky high?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 11:49:44 AM
Supposed to be the latter, the screenshot I linked you has a new message though, with an XP reduction for overkill

No idea what number of deaths in the same 2 seconds triggers it though.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Ingmar on October 02, 2008, 11:53:04 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the overkill thing is how they're offsetting the killing spree issue, it sounds like an easier (if kludgier) fix code-wise.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Morfiend on October 02, 2008, 12:15:00 PM
Well, since this is a thread about today's 1.01 patch, maybe the patch suddenly made the game suck.

I hope not, I was enjoying sniping people with my Pew Pew Archer!

Dont worry Lum, he is just mad that he was on the "defend AoC" side of this argument, now he is taking the other side and frantically trying to prove he is right.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 12:16:26 PM
Rumor has it that the new Pounce is hilariously good.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Ingmar on October 02, 2008, 12:16:55 PM
Rumor has it that the new Pounce is hilariously good.

Shadowstep-across-5-zones good?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 12:32:53 PM
White Lions need something hilariously good. Right now they're totally wonk.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 12:35:49 PM
Rumor has it that the new Pounce is hilariously good.

Shadowstep-across-5-zones good?

No Cooldown Spammable PBAE good.

No minimum range, no cooldown, 40 AP. It's not used as Charge anymore, it's now "leap into caster group and spam like you're a fucking sorc" <3


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 12:36:32 PM
In other words, it went from crap to semi-useful.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Riggswolfe on October 02, 2008, 12:37:00 PM
Sooo...Witch Hunters are now second class Melee DPS to White Lions? While being inferior already to the Destruction MDPS?

Great.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 12:37:33 PM
No, this doesn't make white lions much better at melee dps. I'm sure a witch hunter or witch elf could still wreck their day (if the former could fight them that is).


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 01:05:14 PM
The pounce now has a 65 foot range. Can we say "respec?"


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: HRose on October 02, 2008, 01:13:03 PM
Anyone can confirm this?

It seems the stutters was much reduced after the patch. Then I noticed that specular lights (the shine on the terrain and metal equipment) don't work anymore for me.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: d4rkj3di on October 02, 2008, 03:14:41 PM
This patch broke my mods, I am so canceling my WoW sub. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the changes. Also, Cevik goes to Coventry is awesome.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: rattran on October 02, 2008, 03:46:10 PM
I'm not spec'd to try the new pounce, so I can't report on that. But I played my 27 WL a bit to try things today and have some thoughts:

Pet control bar now despawns for me pretty consistently on zoning, and more often in just walking about. It occasionally comes back as well. When this happens, the pet tends to disappear, but manually sending him to attack a target makes him reappear, run off in a random direction then stand still. The mob takes damage, I can approach and attack it. But the pet health bar won't update, so unless I spam the crappy pet heal, the pet eventually falls over.

The pet will occasionally run off and attack things in the far distance if it's in defense mode instead of passive.

The pet does less damage than prepatch in any of the 3 stances. It seems to hold aggro better in taunt mode.

Low level crap mobs which ignore me, attack the pet. (Was wandering through the Chaos half of Troll Country looking around)

The +50% pet speed tactic no longer seems to function, but it could be the client is simply not updating the pet position. I only use it in RvR, and usually I'm just using the pet for it's occasional 40% snare and to panic the sorc/shaman/zealot.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Kail on October 02, 2008, 04:02:53 PM
I had my White Lion shelved until they fixed the pet pathing stuff, and I'd hoped this patch would be it.  I logged in, attacked a mob, and told my cat to assist.  Lion did nothing, as far as I could see.  After the mob died, the Lion stood there and wouldn't follow me.  I went back to town and logged off.

Sigh.

Also, the "no scrolling through the EULA" thing doesn't seem to work for me.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: UnSub on October 02, 2008, 06:45:56 PM
So then I take it the answer is "no, they never did lift the NDA?"

Thanks.

I'm fully aware Cevik is trolling.

However, I think the issue of "don't talk about the elder content NDA" worked well for Mythic because it apparently stopped a lot of talk about how, like AoC, the later game content needed a lot of work (although Mythic does appear to have delivered on their main promises, which Funcom didn't).


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Ingmar on October 02, 2008, 08:06:50 PM
So then I take it the answer is "no, they never did lift the NDA?"

Thanks.

I'm fully aware Cevik is trolling.

However, I think the issue of "don't talk about the elder content NDA" worked well for Mythic because it apparently stopped a lot of talk about how, like AoC, the later game content needed a lot of work (although Mythic does appear to have delivered on their main promises, which Funcom didn't).

It apparently confused people, I'll say that. T3/T4 content wasn't covered by it, despite what Cevik seems to think.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 08:10:47 PM
my world.myp won't patch or check out

can't play game

har


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 02, 2008, 08:22:27 PM
I had my White Lion shelved until they fixed the pet pathing stuff, and I'd hoped this patch would be it.  I logged in, attacked a mob, and told my cat to assist.  Lion did nothing, as far as I could see.  After the mob died, the Lion stood there and wouldn't follow me.  I went back to town and logged off.

Sigh.

Also, the "no scrolling through the EULA" thing doesn't seem to work for me.


The EULA is wrongly described. It doesn't start at the bottom, it just allows you to check the box and click accept without scrolling.

As for pet pathing: jesus christ it seems WORSE now.I can't get it to follow me reliably after engaging in combat, I can't get it to recall if someone starts kiting it to despawn range, after all targets are dead it either goes on some blood quest towards the destruction spawn point or stands there staring at a corpse.

Good lord, it's horrible.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Sjofn on October 02, 2008, 08:52:44 PM
THIS ONE'S MINE


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: squirrel on October 02, 2008, 09:23:29 PM
I had my White Lion shelved until they fixed the pet pathing stuff, and I'd hoped this patch would be it.  I logged in, attacked a mob, and told my cat to assist.  Lion did nothing, as far as I could see.  After the mob died, the Lion stood there and wouldn't follow me.  I went back to town and logged off.

Sigh.

Also, the "no scrolling through the EULA" thing doesn't seem to work for me.


The EULA is wrongly described. It doesn't start at the bottom, it just allows you to check the box and click accept without scrolling.

As for pet pathing: jesus christ it seems WORSE now.I can't get it to follow me reliably after engaging in combat, I can't get it to recall if someone starts kiting it to despawn range, after all targets are dead it either goes on some blood quest towards the destruction spawn point or stands there staring at a corpse.

Good lord, it's horrible.

See? It's because it's a cat. They should have made it a dog.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Khaldun on October 02, 2008, 09:24:44 PM
I had some weird problems joining scenarios tonight that seemed like a new bug.

Still seeing weird mob pathing. Also, if mobs are going to flee, but they don't aggro nearby mobs when they do, what's the point of fleeing? You just wait for them to come back, ho-hum.

I'm leaning towards thinking that somebody's found an exploit that makes their characters untargetable. I saw that happen three times tonight with the same ironbreaker in Phoenix Gate when he was carrying the flag--sudden warp forward and "untargetable" message.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Righ on October 02, 2008, 09:47:02 PM
And here are the elf tits you asked for:

The biggest tit in that picture appeared to be on his cell phone.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 02, 2008, 10:16:46 PM
I was in a scenario and when an engineer turret died it said "i have failed the goddess"


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: rk47 on October 02, 2008, 10:59:57 PM
screenshot or it never happened  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: squirrel on October 02, 2008, 11:06:35 PM
The new build keeps moving my chat windows every time I re-log. Annoying.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 02:11:24 AM
The new build keeps moving my chat windows every time I re-log. Annoying.

The old build did that for me. The new one doesn't.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Azazel on October 03, 2008, 02:29:37 AM
I have to say, reading both patch notes and discussions like this one on the game doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Xenomorph on October 03, 2008, 05:12:24 AM
I have to say, reading both patch notes and discussions like this one on the game doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Delurking for a mo.

Are the current problems with the game really bad enough that people are seriously put out, or thinking about not playing? YMMV, but for me, some annoyances are small (Tor Anroc is a clusterfuck; long scenario queues even on highly populated servers), some annoyances are bigger (renown gear being badly itemized and generally sucky, encouraging the dreaded "PvE to PvP"; scenario quality declining a bit after T1, a bit more after T2...), some annoyances are pretty large (on any scale greater than 2v1, combat can be purely a matter of numbers; Mythic deciding prelaunch that XP grind = customer retention; the sluggish pace of combat), some aren't Mythic's fault at all (a community that is collectively shittier at PvP than your average WoW BG PUG; not much communication going on outside of guilds).

But they don't change the fact that this is a fundamentally well-made game, rather than something like AoC, which was a few good ideas wrapped around a steaming pile of shit. It's not perfect, but I could see it being fun in the long term, although maybe not in the mortgage-my-life-to-live-in-Azeroth way WoW is/was. For me, the only thing that could be a deal-breaker is the sluggish combat. WoW PvP may be repetitive, it may be unbalanced, it may be go-geared-or-go-home, but it's well-coded, as responsive as an FPS and just flows in a way that WAR's combat doesn't. So I've felt that it kind of keeps me at a distance, and I really can't get into it as much as I might like. As far as I know, though, that's been a common complaint since beta. They've made improvements, and will hopefully make more (taking CC breaks off the GCD, lowering the GCD itself by a few tenths of a second, tightening up their netcode).


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Arthur_Parker on October 03, 2008, 05:30:18 AM
I'd say if you are new to mmorpg's try WOW, if you want raids and purples play WOW.  If you find the PVP in WOW isn't to your taste or find that you can only play for short bursts of time, then WAR might fit your style of play better.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Hawkbit on October 03, 2008, 06:05:34 AM
The top priority gamebreakers for me right now is fixing stuff like window-dragging and walking through invisible walls.  I won't make it past a few months if this continues.  I can deal (but not happy with) a long T3 grind just to see T4.  But I won't deal with unfair advantages through meta-game activities and/or improper coding. 

It's a pretty enough horse that I'll ride it for a long time as long as the legs are working. 


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: HRose on October 03, 2008, 06:29:13 AM
The worst thing for me is that I'm still level 9 and all PQs and open RvR areas are dead.

I'm a bit tired of standard quests and scenarios. The alternatives are already not working.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 06:39:55 AM
Level 9 takes like 3 hours even if you've never done it before. Either you're really really really bad at the game, or you're doing it wrong.

Both are the same thing. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nija on October 03, 2008, 06:41:32 AM
Man, I think people are blowing this window dragging stuff out of proportion. I've leveled one guy to the 20s and 3 to the teens and I've not encountered it ONCE. I spent almost all of my time in scenarios too, so you'd think I'd see it.




Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Hayduke on October 03, 2008, 06:45:55 AM
Eh the problem is a technique like this will spread like wildfire.  Maybe people are scared of Punkbuster reporting them though who knows.

And I can't see how anyone could muster up the nerdrage to hate this game.  Even if you don't like it it's still a decent game.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 06:46:02 AM
Man, I think people are blowing this window dragging stuff out of proportion. I've leveled one guy to the 20s and 3 to the teens and I've not encountered it ONCE. I spent almost all of my time in scenarios too, so you'd think I'd see it.

How many characters of yours are melee?  That's where you notice it most. Also, most of the guild groups prone to this are in their 30's to 40 now.  You'll see it again when you get there.



Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Arthur_Parker on October 03, 2008, 06:47:52 AM
Interesting interview (http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/10/world-of-warcra.html)

Quote
Wondering about the content that was cut from WAR prior to release, I asked Hickman if the additional player cities and abandoned classes would be the first items added back into the WAR universe.
That content, Hickman said, probably wouldn't be reintegrated into the game. All content cut before release was removed because "it sucked" and the WAR team is only working on adding content that "would be very good for the game," he said.

Accurate quote or the interviewer didn't understand him correctly?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: murdoc on October 03, 2008, 06:51:35 AM
Man, I think people are blowing this window dragging stuff out of proportion. I've leveled one guy to the 20s and 3 to the teens and I've not encountered it ONCE. I spent almost all of my time in scenarios too, so you'd think I'd see it.


Do you play a tank? It's VERY noticeable when you're trying to use your tank to block people from either getting at your healers/flag carrier/whatever, or trying to pin in their healers/flag carrier/whatever. Sometimes it's lag, a lot of times it's not. Especially when it happens every single time with some characters.

I have to say, reading both patch notes and discussions like this one on the game doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

We have to be careful, if we talk about how much we like the game and what's all good with it and everything, they'll revoke our F13 hatecard and label us fanbois and start pointing fingers at the AoC forum. Game is very extremely fun to play.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Khaldun on October 03, 2008, 07:08:54 AM
I notice exploits early because I've learned the hard way that saying, "Eh, it's just a few people" is inevitably a prelude to, "I am the last person not exploiting, fuck this shit". This is pretty close to a demonstrable natural law. Exploits will spread through a gaming community in direct proportion to the extent that a developer or other referee either doesn't care about the exploit or is helpless to prevent it. I'm long since past thinking that it even has any moral implications for the exploit-users: it's like having a moral opinion on a virus at some stage of a pandemic. And following that analogy, if you're concerned with public health, you really don't want to be in the position of saying, "Eh, avian flu, who gives a shit, it's just killing a couple of chicken farmers in some rice paddy down along the Mekong".

--------

The problem with saying that Warhammer is a casual-friendly game for people who just want a bit of PvP is that in a very short time, there is going to be no PvP to be had at the lower levels. I'm at the cusp of tier 3, playing fairly casually, and already on my medium-to-low pop server the tier2 scenarios are very visible sputtering and dying. You're either riding the wave of player levelling or you're not with Warhammer. If you're ahead of the wave, you're a catass who is grinding a lot of nasty PvE. If you're behind it, you're going to catass whether you like to do it or not. Warhammer really, really relies on players being involved in simultaneous experiences. The normal trickling of alt-development is absolutely not going to cut it for this game, because that is going to need very serious synchronization if it's going to match the fun that people are having now. Quite a few of the folks here (HRose, others) noticed this aspect of things in Beta, and it's becoming very clear that they're right. The only thing that's going to get a casual player through the empty, barren experience of developing a character after everyone is at the endgame is going to be a very very strong pull from friends.

This patch gave me some hope that Mythic is going to deal with the very many rough edges and subpar feature sets that make much of the game more annoying than it ought to be. But I honestly don't know how they're going to overcome some of the structural issues which they're going to face in about two or three months time. The endgame had better be some super-entertaining ultra-fun if they want strong retention of the subscriber base. And once they start to bleed subscribers, if they don't have some smart ideas about how to get new or returning players right back into the heat of things, then this game is going to die.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: tazelbain on October 03, 2008, 07:12:53 AM
You can like the game and still realize that the game has serious mid term and long tern problems that need to be resolved to make WAR a success.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Khaldun on October 03, 2008, 07:16:35 AM
Well, exactly. I like the game when everything is going right, which is way more than I could say about Age of Conan, which I didn't even like in the much-fellated Tortuge levels. But I can see stuff coming that I have very little confidence in Mythic's ability to respond to at the speed and level of innovation that they'll need to respond to it at. Some of the medium-term problems are likely to be just as fatal to the game's prospects as Age of Conan's inner core of empty suckitude was, even if the basic structure of War is far more likeable and has far greater potential.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 07:19:48 AM
I don't notice the exploits because arrows still kill once they're fired.

Join the Shadow Warrior Army today.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 03, 2008, 07:20:04 AM
My main complaint is that sorcs and BWs make the T3 game unfun. Like "I'd rather go bitch at pet pathing on my alt" unfun. Damage is out of control for a few classes, and there's no fix in sight, or statements on appropriateness.

By the balance rules we were given in beta, they're nerfbait (TTK was the rule of the day, everything is balanced by TTK. At the very elast, Withering Heat and Hand of Ruin violate the TTK rules by about 80%)


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nija on October 03, 2008, 07:21:08 AM

How many characters of yours are melee?  That's where you notice it most. Also, most of the guild groups prone to this are in their 30's to 40 now.  You'll see it again when you get there.



All of 'em! DoK, Witch Elf, and a White Lion! The only warping shit I see is normal, FPS-grade client desyncronization. People get exactly behind someone backing up and get CONFUSED when he warps through you. News flash, network prediction doesn't work like that and hasn't since you were LANing duke3d.

Get 10 ft behind the person, predicting where they are going to go, and set up your road block there.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 07:22:42 AM
Quote
My main complaint is that sorcs and BWs make the T3 game unfun.

I assume you're playing a melee class? I'm pretty sure Shadow Warrior makes some scenarios unfun for BWs and Sorcs. Especially Sorcs :awesome_for_real:. Can we say 1 hit kill? Morale 2nd Level + Festering Arrows. Hell, if you think they have over 3k hit points, just lay that other +20% damage ability over it. Adds up to about, oh, 3400 damage.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: slog on October 03, 2008, 07:28:12 AM
I have to say, reading both patch notes and discussions like this one on the game doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Delurking for a mo.

Are the current problems with the game really bad enough that people are seriously put out, or thinking about not playing?

*raises hand*

I brought a preorder key for a dollar from Target.  My primary motivation for wanting to try the game was fustration with WoW's PvP.  Arena was getting old, and BG's get stale after a while.

Why I didn't buy:
1) UI.  I like WoW's UI a lot.  They should have just ripped it off completely.Plenty of addons, I can tell who's buffed, who's not, casting bars tell me what my target is casting etc.  WAR's UI sucked horribly in comparison.  I don't like stepping backwards.  

2) I HATED the newbie experience.  I am SO SICK of having to level impotent newbies.  I never made it to Tier 2 because I found Tier 1 so boring.  Not enough spells to cast.  My solution:  Let me start from character creation at Tier 2. (I know, not going to happen, but that's what I want)

3) No one chats.  Whats the hell?  A mmo where no one chats?

3) Synch issues:  I didn't like how the synch between the client and server worked.  

So I figure I'll wait for them to figure it out and will try it in 6 months.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 07:57:32 AM
Quote
2) I HATED the newbie experience.  I am SO SICK of having to level impotent newbies.  I never made it to Tier 2 because I found Tier 1 so boring.  Not enough spells to cast.  My solution:  Let me start from character creation at Tier 2. (I know, not going to happen, but that's what I want)

I'm going to assume you weren't rolling with a guild on vent.

Quote
3) No one chats.  Whats the hell?  A mmo where no one chats?

Ok, I was right. Try getting in with a guild that uses vent.

Quote
So I figure I'll wait for them to figure it out and will try it in 6 months.

Come back with friends, and, ahem, vent.

Otherwise you'll leave with the same opinion again.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 07:58:43 AM
The only warping shit I see is normal, FPS-grade client desyncronization. People get exactly behind someone backing up and get CONFUSED when he warps through you. News flash, network prediction doesn't work like that and hasn't since you were LANing duke3d.

Get 10 ft behind the person, predicting where they are going to go, and set up your road block there.

I'm going to bet that you never played DAoC for a prolonged period of time.  Lag-casting, lag-jumping, and window-dragging, were all the norm. Though players could do a bit to minimize the effects of these things, they still played a part in the outcome of close fights.  Like I said... you'll see for yourself when you get into the 30-40 bracket or the endgame.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: slog on October 03, 2008, 07:59:24 AM
Quote
2) I HATED the newbie experience.  I am SO SICK of having to level impotent newbies.  I never made it to Tier 2 because I found Tier 1 so boring.  Not enough spells to cast.  My solution:  Let me start from character creation at Tier 2. (I know, not going to happen, but that's what I want)

I'm going to assume you weren't rolling with a guild on vent.

Quote
3) No one chats.  Whats the hell?  A mmo where no one chats?

Ok, I was right. Try getting in with a guild that uses vent.

Quote
So I figure I'll wait for them to figure it out and will try it in 6 months.

Come back with friends, and, ahem, vent.

Otherwise you'll leave with the same opinion again.

So what happens to all the folks that joined without a pre-existing guild?



Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 08:03:26 AM
They either join one or QQ on forums where someone tells them they should've joined a guild and gotten on vent.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 08:03:50 AM
So what happens to all the folks that joined without a pre-existing guild?

They provide rps and xp for all of the existing guilds until they are assimilated.  


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 03, 2008, 08:12:59 AM
So what happens to all the folks that joined without a pre-existing guild?

They provide rps and xp for all of the existing guilds until they are assimilated.  

I love how people are expecting 1mil subs (post wotlk) for this game.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: insouciant on October 03, 2008, 08:15:47 AM
They are not going to take the time to be assimilated.  The f13 crowd may appreciate WAR for all the things it got right, but I wonder how people whose first MMOG was WoW are going to like grinding just to to get farther and farther behind the levelling bulge.  I do not see how a game is going to survive when its appeal is principally limited to those who join with an existing guild or play group.  Wasn't that the formula that DDO parlayed into such tremendous success?




Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 08:25:02 AM
DDO thought people would repeat quests. Different situation altogether.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 08:28:27 AM
They are not going to take the time to be assimilated.  The f13 crowd may appreciate WAR for all the things it got right, but I wonder how people whose first MMOG was WoW are going to like grinding just to to get farther and farther behind the levelling bulge.  I do not see how a game is going to survive when its appeal is principally limited to those who join with an existing guild or play group.  Wasn't that the formula that DDO parlayed into such tremendous success?

WAR (as much as it may be in denial about it) is a niche game.  It's an alternative for those players that want a more PvP-centric gaming experience than WoW offers.  For that, I think it has managed to do well.  It's accessible to the casual player and deep enough to keep the hardcore interested for a while. 


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: amiable on October 03, 2008, 08:38:14 AM
They are not going to take the time to be assimilated.  The f13 crowd may appreciate WAR for all the things it got right, but I wonder how people whose first MMOG was WoW are going to like grinding just to to get farther and farther behind the levelling bulge.  I do not see how a game is going to survive when its appeal is principally limited to those who join with an existing guild or play group.  Wasn't that the formula that DDO parlayed into such tremendous success?




WoW advanced the genre by making it easy to accomplish things solo.

WAR advances the genre by making it easy to find and join a group.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: HRose on October 03, 2008, 08:40:09 AM
Level 9 takes like 3 hours even if you've never done it before. Either you're really really really bad at the game, or you're doing it wrong.

Both are the same thing. :awesome_for_real:
I'm not complaining it takes too long, I'm complaining that I can't play the way I want because PQs and RvR areas are dead. So I mostly do quests and wait for queues (even if now I can't queue because I'm on the higher zone, which should really get fixed).


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 03, 2008, 08:45:21 AM
Adding the open party system is not "advancing the genre" well in the barest sense perhaps.  It's a great system don't get me wrong but in and of itself doesn't mean it's a revolutionary idea that will give us a third gen mmo(are we on two or three now?)

WAR has a lot of fun things but it also has a lot of stupid barriers to entry that will in the end keep it niche when it didn't need to be. Yes, it offers an alternative to wow but it's a poor one.

It's as if you don't like beef so WAR offers you chicken, except it's pretty dry while the beef is succulent and delicious. You still prefer chicken but it's just not as palatable and those who have no real preference will be taking the beef.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Khaldun on October 03, 2008, 08:58:46 AM

How many characters of yours are melee?  That's where you notice it most. Also, most of the guild groups prone to this are in their 30's to 40 now.  You'll see it again when you get there.



All of 'em! DoK, Witch Elf, and a White Lion! The only warping shit I see is normal, FPS-grade client desyncronization. People get exactly behind someone backing up and get CONFUSED when he warps through you. News flash, network prediction doesn't work like that and hasn't since you were LANing duke3d.

Get 10 ft behind the person, predicting where they are going to go, and set up your road block there.

Just to give you an example of what is more than normal client desynchronization. Last night in a tier2 scenario, I'm at my team's flag. An ironbreaker grabs it while I'm trying to smack away another player. I turn on him right away. I click on him (rather than tab) and I cannot target him: I get a "untargetable" message. He doesn't target when I cycle through tab, and at the moment, he's the only enemy player visible ahead of me. The nearest accompanying enemy player is showing as well behind me when I swing my camera around. I'm right behind him. Now even if he were somehow way ahead of me, I should be able to target him unless there was a line-of-sight problem, and the area well ahead of us is completely free of LOS blocking obstacles of any kind. Suddenly this player warps well ahead of me. After a minute of chasing, he suddenly becomes targetable, but is out of range of any of my tanking abilities except a few futile tosses of my axe. I'm not the only one with this problem, I find, talking to other players on my side, and this player is the only one that we're having the problem with. No other enemy is warping or is untargetable. The ironbreaker, I should add, is *not* using his flee ability, because we see him actually activate that as he approaches his own flag for a turn-in. I watch this ironbreaker for the rest of the scenario. He is targetable and his movements synchronized with the rest of us when approaching our flag. If he gets our flag, he becomes untargetable for a brief period and warps at around the same point, always away from any chasers.

That's not a coincidence when it happens regularly in a 10-minute scenario. (And when the same character does it again in the next iteration of that scenario later in the evening.) It's always possible that in some cases, this is the server doing something weird to try and interpret the consequence of abilities that speed a player up relative to other players, but when it's happening to a class that doesn't really have those abilities for the most part, and it's happening only when it is to that player's advantage, it really means something out of the ordinary is going on. And if whatever that "it" is starts to happen routinely, it will have a very bad impact on this game, far more so than games which are built around PvE.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Xenomorph on October 03, 2008, 09:00:01 AM
Yeah, the ceiling on WAR's popularity is going to be caused by the fact that PvP has been successful in the "mass market" (i.e. in WoW) when it's been packaged as solo-friendly skirmishes. WAR's primary focus is large-scale guild battles. And since there's not a whole lot of in-game communication--WAR is seriously hurting for an official global channel, at least for the purpose of guild recruitment--those guilds are ones that people either made before they joined the game or put together on a message board somewhere. Players with strong guild ties that go beyond a given game, players who read MMOG-related forums--I doubt that adds up to a million people, let alone a million subs.

WAR has scenarios, and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who will subscribe solely for the sake of more and (sometimes) better BGs/scenarios. And right now they're reasonably solo-friendly in the sense that you don't find too many organized guild groups running. But the amount of success you can have at every level in WAR PvP through class interdependency is a hell of a lot greater than you get from premading in WoW. Once more people realize that--especially if warband queueing gets in the game one way or another--I expect scenarios will get positively solo-unfriendly since the PUG v. premade issue will be a much bigger problem here than it is in WoW.

Edit: Am I misremembering, or did Mythic set the population caps of servers are some ridiculously low numbers? I want to say 1k, but that can't be right--maybe per side? Any server I've been on that's been lower than high/high pops feels like a ghost town. Although that could be because of the nobody-fooking-talks thing.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: tazelbain on October 03, 2008, 09:14:17 AM
Adding the open party system is not "advancing the genre" well in the barest sense perhaps.  It's a great system don't get me wrong but in and of itself doesn't mean it's a revolutionary idea that will give us a third gen mmo(are we on two or three now?)

It doesn't have to be revolutionary to advance the genre.  In the evolutionary enviroment diku clones, advancement come small steps.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 03, 2008, 09:27:19 AM
Quote
My main complaint is that sorcs and BWs make the T3 game unfun.

I assume you're playing a melee class? I'm pretty sure Shadow Warrior makes some scenarios unfun for BWs and Sorcs. Especially Sorcs :awesome_for_real:. Can we say 1 hit kill? Morale 2nd Level + Festering Arrows. Hell, if you think they have over 3k hit points, just lay that other +20% damage ability over it. Adds up to about, oh, 3400 damage.

Warrior Priest. Worse than a melee class, a healer that can't heal for Shit without being able to melee.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 09:44:12 AM
Witchelves make scenarios decidedly unfun for cloth classes that don't have a guard bot.  If I don't have a group, I routinely get popped on by 2-3 of these stupid things and wtfpwned without the slightest ability to react.  I don't mind being beaten by a class, but being instagibbed by someone you never even saw just isn't fun.

Have I mentioned that I hate the addition of stealth to pvp games?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Jimbo on October 03, 2008, 10:34:12 AM
You should check out Battlefield Heroes for stealth done right.  But reading about WAR makes me not want to try this game, I like the idea of RvR, but hate the idea that I'll be the only n00b in 3 months when I finish the computers...  Why is Mythic always against fast leveling?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 10:41:23 AM
The stealth here doesn't bother me. Witch Elves are dangerous motherfuckers to BWs, Arch Mages, and Shadow Warriors - no question. But they're supposed to be. They can't do a damn thing to a tank. And 2 of the 3 aforementioned classes can SHRED THEM if the witch elf doesn't get there first. Them and Witch Hunters EXIST to infiltrate and destroy the back line. Complaining about it is... well... kinda missing the point about the class.

But then, I bet witch elves bitch and moan when they get instagibbed by BWs and SWs also. So there's that. They don't get it either, I'm sure.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 03, 2008, 10:45:47 AM
You should check out Battlefield Heroes for stealth done right.  But reading about WAR makes me not want to try this game, I like the idea of RvR, but hate the idea that I'll be the only n00b in 3 months when I finish the computers...  Why is Mythic always against fast leveling?

Well, in the case of WAR, leveling was slowed down right before release, and I imagine the reason was to try and shield the public from their endgame issues.  For instance, from what I've learned, PvP gear before renown rank 76/80 is worse than drops from the equivalent of a five-man dungeon.

Now onto my personal ax to grind: I've leveled characters before countless times, it's not fun, it will never be fun again, no matter how you do it.  Grinding, questing, PvPing - I do not care, gaining levels in a PvP game is awful.  And when leveling sucks, I can't bear the idea of leveling an alt, which kills PvP replayability for me.

Shadowbane is crap, but it has that issue right in its current form: takes like one day /played to get to cap (or close enough to it that it doesn't matter)


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 03, 2008, 10:46:51 AM
Witch Elves can fuck up a tank pretty badly, really. But I don't really mind, since anyone can drop a witch elf if they see them coming. The stealth isn't that bad, and the longer they stay in it, the worse off they are opening the fight.

I think after reading and running theorycraft, I'm going back to a shadow warrior as my alt.

Because jesus CHRIST who made White Lions. They're worse in every possible metric compared to a Marauder, and in addition their pet has been eating paint chips when it was a kitten.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 03, 2008, 10:50:57 AM

Because jesus CHRIST who made White Lions. They're worse in every possible metric compared to a Marauder, and in addition their pet has been eating paint chips when it was a kitten.

Imagine how bad the classes that were cut must have been, to be deemed worse than White Lions and Squig herders, which are both laughably useless classes.  How didn't they say 'boy, having a pet is like having sandpaper underwear, lets cut this pronto.'?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 10:51:12 AM
Pet classes just suck, period.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 03, 2008, 11:13:45 AM
I'm having a hilarious conversation on the marauder boards about it.

They're saying a white lion outdamages a marauder if they'd just learn how to play.

My challenge: Make a 10s, 20s, or 30s damage rotation that outdamages a marauder, with any spec/tactics you want, assuming the pet works Flawlessly.

Best response? Demolition deals less damage than Slashing Blade!

Slashing Blade: 187 damage, 50 AP, 5s Cooldown

Demolition: 150 damage, 25 AP, No Cooldown.

They're right! It does do more damage on a single hit! And about a third the DPS and half the Damage per AP!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 03, 2008, 11:27:13 AM

Because jesus CHRIST who made White Lions. They're worse in every possible metric compared to a Marauder, and in addition their pet has been eating paint chips when it was a kitten.

Imagine how bad the classes that were cut must have been, to be deemed worse than White Lions and Squig herders, which are both laughably useless classes.  How didn't they say 'boy, having a pet is like having sandpaper underwear, lets cut this pronto.'?

I will gladly pit my squig herder VS. anything you want.  :grin:

But, they are a CC/DPS support class, not really 1 to 1 combatants.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 03, 2008, 11:31:46 AM

I will gladly pit my squig herder VS. anything you want.  :grin:

But, they are a CC/DPS support class, not really 1 to 1 combatants.

From what I've observed, squig herders drop about as fast as a BW/Sorc (discounting the kill-yourself mechanic of those classes), do *much* less damage, and their only CC is a knockback, whereas Sorc/BW have root (and, frankly, most classes have knockbacks).  What's the, uh, upside to playing a squig herder, not even factoring in pet bugs?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Fraeg on October 03, 2008, 11:37:09 AM
they are a really fun class to play.    :awesome_for_real:

seriously, in beta it was the class i had the most fun with when not anywhere near pvp/rvr.

but the splinters in my ass from pvp got to me so now i play a witch hunter.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 03, 2008, 11:40:01 AM

I will gladly pit my squig herder VS. anything you want.  :grin:

But, they are a CC/DPS support class, not really 1 to 1 combatants.

From what I've observed, squig herders drop about as fast as a BW/Sorc (discounting the kill-yourself mechanic of those classes), do *much* less damage, and their only CC is a knockback, whereas Sorc/BW have root (and, frankly, most classes have knockbacks).  What's the, uh, upside to playing a squig herder, not even factoring in pet bugs?

We also have various slows, from the herder, and the pet (Pet has AOE slow, or AOE Damage, from its position) as well as arrow shots the can be completed while moving (2 by level 10, one, unblockable). Not to mention that each pet give a different utility depending on what type you have out.

Squig herder survival depends on movement (in and our between melee, and ranged range, and tag teaming with the pet), positioning of the pet (if they listen) and CC ability's and DOT's. Simply put, to kill a squig herder, you have to catch a squig herder, and he will be damaging you while he is moving. Not including the pet, and what ever type he has out.

They are incredible fun to play, are are a very useful class in groups as a support type. I am still not sure what the hell the squig armor does, at all, but i figure that may come with levels/mastery.

IMO.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 03, 2008, 11:40:23 AM
Across the board, SH skills deal less damage than the exact same SW skill.

Why? Because the pet makes up for it!

While sane on paper, it makes them shitty.

White Lions were a bit better back when the lion had no cooldown on death, he was used the same way squigs are: harassment of a healer. They added the cooldown because White Lions should totally not be using their pet as a suicide distraction.  :uhrr:


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 11:40:52 AM
The upside to playing a squig herder is you remind Shadow Warriors that they have no equal in the game at the upper tiers.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 03, 2008, 11:44:57 AM
The upside to playing a squig herder is you remind Shadow Warriors that they have no equal in the game at the upper tiers.

Ill comment on that when i get there.

used the same way squigs are: harassment of a healer.

Your doing it wrong.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 03, 2008, 11:46:35 AM
Not too hard to catch a squig herder - just have to get within 100 feet.  That is, of course, speaking for good classes, instead of the craptastic MDPS classes. 

I have no idea how mythic decided that witch hunters (and, I'm guessing, Witch Elves) are fine.  Same DPS as a Bright Wizard, but they have to get in melee range to do it.  That coupled with having less survivability (no root, no detaunt) makes it *so* obvious that MDPS is utter crap.

So, I'll amend my statement: MDPS and squig herders are junk classes that no one should be playing.  At least MDPS has the ability to be useful by being a kill-the-BW suicide bomber, but dying six or seven times in a scenario makes it pretty hard to get xp, so that's more of a punishment than a feature.

Plus - dude, who doesn't have snares?

edit: note that any suggestion of an insult in this post, or any other, should be considered to be directed squarely at Mythic - they designed the damn classes.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 03, 2008, 11:53:28 AM
Not too hard to catch a squig herder - just have to get within 100 feet.  That is, of course, speaking for good classes, instead of the craptastic MDPS classes. 

I have no idea how mythic decided that witch hunters (and, I'm guessing, Witch Elves) are fine.  Same DPS as a Bright Wizard, but they have to get in melee range to do it.  That coupled with having less survivability (no root, no detaunt) makes it *so* obvious that MDPS is utter crap.

So, I'll amend my statement: MDPS and squig herders are junk classes that no one should be playing.  At least MDPS has the ability to be useful by being a kill-the-BW suicide bomber, but dying six or seven times in a scenario makes it pretty hard to get xp, so that's more of a punishment than a feature.

Plus - dude, who doesn't have snares?

edit: note that any suggestion of an insult in this post, or any other, should be considered to be directed squarely at Mythic - they designed the damn classes.

I will simply just disagree. Also, i don't have snares (well i do) my pet does, i do not need to be anywhere near the group im about to snare, my pet is. If you cant see how this is a powerful ability in RvR, i don't know what to tell ya. I have used it may times to slow entire groups long enough to shoot them from a distance, and let the rest of the troops catch up, and beat them down. It can even be used offensively. A lot of the trick to a squig herder is use of your surroundings and choke points ETC..and the fact that we can move almost constantly.

Maybe its because i normally play pet classes, and CC classes that i think beyond "Skill does X damage", but Squig herders have a lot of utility. Right now i play a DoK, and a herder, and i like my herder more, mostly due to utility.

1 on 1, yes, squig herders go down, they have incredibly utility in RvR and groups however. Its not the class for anyone who wants to top the leader boards, but its more for people who enjoy supporting the group/raid/RvR.

I would also like to note, that its not that i do not think SH need some love, its just i think many are miss judging them.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 03, 2008, 12:05:32 PM
I don't want to come off like a prick, but the only CC that's been brought up is the knockback (common, common ability), and your pet-delivered snare, which you tout as being great because of the range.

Anyone can have a ranged aoe snare.  The basic, craptastic snare potions are 20%.  And, really, what good is a snare going to be in a keep siege, which is basically two big groups, standing still, pressing keys at each other?

And, frankly, any ranged class (keep in mind, I consider these to be the *good* classes - melee gets shit on in this game) focuses on use of their surroundings and choke points, etc... and can move almost constantly.  BWs pump out virtually all of their damage via instant-casts; as an AM I have only one damaging spell with a cast time, and I rarely use it, and I haven't been out-damaged in Tor Anroc in multiple character levels spent exclusively doing Tor Anroc (I would not be able to do this with another class, save for, maybe, BW).

It just makes no sense.  As an AM, I do more damage while healing, have access to two knockbacks (one a 100-foot range, aoe on a 20-second CD) an aoe 60% snare in a 30 or 45 foot radius, and huuge aoe debuffs (-100 str/int/toughness/ballistics in a 30/45 foot radius for 20s, no CD, no cast time at level 30).

Maybe AMs and BWs just need the ol' nerf stick.

I'm not railing on you, I'm railing on the awful design of classes that aren't AM/BW/healer/tank (and their destro equivalents).


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 03, 2008, 12:09:14 PM
The upside to playing a squig herder is you remind Shadow Warriors that they have no equal in the game at the upper tiers.

Ill comment on that when i get there.

used the same way squigs are: harassment of a healer.

Your doing it wrong.

That's pretty much how every squig in the game winds up. Randomly chasing some healer for 5 minutes until it blows up when the herder finally uses an ability that requires it.

Across the board, Squig Herders simply deal less damage than Shadow Warriors. It's not even close.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lum on October 03, 2008, 12:17:46 PM
as well as arrow shots the can be completed while moving (2 by level 10, one, unblockable).

Shadow Warriors have a whole tree devoted to on-the-move shots (Skirmish).

Squig Herders are the most underpowered class in Warhammer, by a long shot. Yes, they have some cool features, but they don't do nearly enough DPS and their utility features are all duplicated by other classes with better DPS or core features.

If Squig Herders had the raw DPS of Engineers they'd be closer to parity. But they don't.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 12:23:40 PM
Complaining about it is... well... kinda missing the point about the class.

But then, I bet witch elves bitch and moan when they get instagibbed by BWs and SWs also. So there's that. They don't get it either, I'm sure.

There's a huge difference here.  I can SEE every other class.  If they kill me, it's partly my own fault for not positioning myself better on the battlefield.  If I get killed by a stealther... well, there's no counter to invisibility.  Being alive one second and dead the next because someone can have initiative 100% of the time is a tad over the top.  Especially when playing a class that really has no way to peel for itself until level 18 or so (if you spec for it). 

I'm not complaining about dps.  I'm commenting that you can't balance initiative in a pvp game where one class on each side can run around invisible.  Especially one that has some of the best dps.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Evildrider on October 03, 2008, 12:25:31 PM
Squig herder and shaman were the only reason I would have rolled Destro.

Squig herder is pretty appealing.. and I'm tired of the damn horned squig punting me into lava!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Xenomorph on October 03, 2008, 12:26:54 PM
If I get killed by a stealther... well, there's no counter to invisibility. 

No idea how effective it is in numerical terms, but one of the things that willpower does is increase stealth detection.



Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lum on October 03, 2008, 12:27:32 PM
Stealth is a cool idea in PvP games which ...doesn't work very well in practice.

"Hey, you always win, except when you always lose!"


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Evildrider on October 03, 2008, 12:28:07 PM
Stealth is a cool idea in PvP games which ...doesn't work very well in practice.

"Hey, you always win, except when you always lose!"

At least they didn't go all AoC and give everyone stealth.  lol


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: HaemishM on October 03, 2008, 12:31:02 PM
Not too hard to catch a squig herder - just have to get within 100 feet.  That is, of course, speaking for good classes, instead of the craptastic MDPS classes. 

I have no idea how mythic decided that witch hunters (and, I'm guessing, Witch Elves) are fine.  Same DPS as a Bright Wizard, but they have to get in melee range to do it.  That coupled with having less survivability (no root, no detaunt) makes it *so* obvious that MDPS is utter crap.

Witch hunters have a detaunt that causes targets in 30 feet to do 50% less damage in melee too them. I do wish their armor was a bit tougher.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Calandryll on October 03, 2008, 12:31:49 PM
Squig herder and shaman were the only reason I would have rolled Destro.

Squig herder is pretty appealing.. and I'm tired of the damn horned squig punting me into lava!
Squid herders are a ton of fun, but there is no doubt they are the most underpowered of the classes. If you accept that, and focus on a few of roles (using knockback strategically, using squigs to distract casters, and using the snare at the right times) then it's a blast. If you expect to actually kill people and top the leaderboard, it rarely happens. :)

Played my SH (Nubnotdahface) to level 16 so far. The class has a ton of character. I think it's a testament to the flavor and feel of the class that I am still playing it. Now if the numbers would only get a bump.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 03, 2008, 12:37:36 PM
Squig herder and shaman were the only reason I would have rolled Destro.

Squig herder is pretty appealing.. and I'm tired of the damn horned squig punting me into lava!
Squid herders are a ton of fun, but there is no doubt they are the most underpowered of the classes. If you accept that, and focus on a few of roles (using knockback strategically, using squigs to distract casters, and using the snare at the right times) then it's a blast. If you expect to actually kill people and top the leaderboard, it rarely happens. :)

Played my SH (Nubnotdahface) to level 16 so far. The class has a ton of character. I think it's a testament to the flavor and feel of the class that I am still playing it. Now if the numbers would only get a bump.

I guess thats basically my stance. I play them as a support/cc class, with no need to be top of the charts. The class is sweet, and i won't turn down any numbers adjustments. I just don't agree that they are "Sucky" or "Crap", for much the same reasons as you.

That, and i duo with my girls shaman with that character.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Draegan on October 03, 2008, 12:38:55 PM
The new build keeps moving my chat windows every time I re-log. Annoying.

The old build did that for me. The new one doesn't.

Same as Schild.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Xenomorph on October 03, 2008, 01:01:27 PM
Witch hunters have a detaunt that causes targets in 30 feet to do 50% less damage in melee too them. I do wish their armor was a bit tougher.

I'm guessing that Mythic balanced around the idea of organized PvP groups, in particular the idea of a tank with Guard for each dps class. In a will-be-standard 3-man band of IB-WH-RP, WHs are insane. (In disorganized PUG play, teaming up with another WH and blowing up whoever's at the back of the pack seems to be the most effective strategy.)


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 03, 2008, 01:06:41 PM

Witch hunters have a detaunt that causes targets in 30 feet to do 50% less damage in melee too them. I do wish their armor was a bit tougher.

Ahh, that's definitely good, then.  Now, if only they had more DPS than their ranged equivalent!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
Don't witchelves have a really low crit rate against them as well?  This will turn out very helpful in the endgame where spike damage is king.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 03, 2008, 01:16:54 PM
One very big glaring imbalance that I forgot about, as an Archmage:
So, while having the most damage in the scenario, almost every time, and also throwing out frequent heals and aoe debuffs, I have the ability to instantly resurrect my buddies (which I do, frequently.  I'll instant-rez an average of about 5 times when I'm not just rolling solo).  I'd call that the best utility a class can offer, why do I have the ability to do that with everything else amazing that my class/spec has going for it? 

Also forgot to hammer on my great survivability in that I never need to be closer than 100 feet to the enemy cluster, so the only threat to me is a witch elf; easily handled by knocking them back, HoTing myself up while standing still and waiting for their dps-while-I-move to wear off.  Toss in my detaunt, wait for my team to gib them - easy.  I don't even need to stop lacquering the enemy team with my absurd AoE DoT (which accounts for ~85% of my damage and also lowers damage and crit chance of affected targets by 5% each). 

Nerf my class, it's busted.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 03, 2008, 01:37:50 PM
single best morale rank one in the game is the chosens 10sec unbreakable root that roots you can the target in place. I can't even begin o describe how strategically useful this is, nor can i ever hope it won't get nerfed somehow.

I mean the overall pvp mechanics, as in players fighting players in groups, I think is something mythic actually did really well so for the numerable faults that will probably insure I'm not playing this game in another month or two when I'm actually there in the scenario(a good one) it's a blast.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Ingmar on October 03, 2008, 02:07:42 PM
Complaining about it is... well... kinda missing the point about the class.

But then, I bet witch elves bitch and moan when they get instagibbed by BWs and SWs also. So there's that. They don't get it either, I'm sure.

There's a huge difference here.  I can SEE every other class.  If they kill me, it's partly my own fault for not positioning myself better on the battlefield.  If I get killed by a stealther... well, there's no counter to invisibility.  Being alive one second and dead the next because someone can have initiative 100% of the time is a tad over the top.  Especially when playing a class that really has no way to peel for itself until level 18 or so (if you spec for it). 

I'm not complaining about dps.  I'm commenting that you can't balance initiative in a pvp game where one class on each side can run around invisible.  Especially one that has some of the best dps.

You're playing a RP right? I haven't had a terrible time with getting insta-gibbed from stealth by witch elves. Even with the opener and surprise it takes them a while to burn through all the self-healing and stuff, long enough that I can get help pretty often. Granted if they ambush me in Mourkain I'm dead just about every time, but that's because I lag too much in that zone and can't react as fast.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: rattran on October 03, 2008, 02:14:08 PM
I've been upping my initiative with gear, and spotting witch elves fairly often in stealth.

As for pet issues, the White Lion in lore shouldn't even have a pet. It should be a tank class. Like swordmaster should be mdps. Dunno how Mythic borked that. At least squig herders are canon.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Fraeg on October 03, 2008, 02:22:06 PM
Don't witchelves have a really low crit rate against them as well?  This will turn out very helpful in the endgame where spike damage is king.

i have around 11% chance to be crit at lvl 21.  how does that compare to other peoples classes?  I sounds fairly  low too me, and it is definatly a number i could get lower easily if i passed on other stats.

to the person who mentioned WH duos in pugland.  I team up with another WH. We are both in vent and our carnage is pretty spectacular.  Don't think it will hold up as well in T3, but i can hope.  I get that warm tingly feeling i used to get back in the day on my WoW rogue when i would take out sitting mages with an ambush backstab combo. 


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: rk47 on October 03, 2008, 08:54:41 PM
Well considering BW at max combustion has 50% chance to crit...  :uhrr:
I duno, I really enjoyed playing Hildebrandt, it's like the world is covered with gasoline in Mourkain. I don't know about T3 but so far he's a blast to play.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Goreschach on October 03, 2008, 09:16:17 PM
Yeah, at first I was sad to see Nordenwatch go, but mourkain has started to grow on me. I think it's because everyone is so focused on the dude with the thing that I can just jump around and spam heals on people all fight long.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Evildrider on October 03, 2008, 10:48:46 PM
Well considering BW at max combustion has 50% chance to crit...  :uhrr:
I duno, I really enjoyed playing Hildebrandt, it's like the world is covered with gasoline in Mourkain. I don't know about T3 but so far he's a blast to play.

I get to kill lots in Tor with my BW.  It's very satisfying. :) 


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Draegan on October 04, 2008, 06:55:43 AM
The one thing Mythic didn't bother doing is balancing classes with each other as you level up.  Some classes get awesome abilities early, some get them late.  Lets see balance at Rank 40, then we can judge it.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Zetor on October 04, 2008, 07:09:13 AM
The only t2 scenario that pops on Ostermark since the patch is Phoenix Gate.
Yesterday I spent 3-4 hours in queue for the other two [at prime time]... nothing. Others reported similar experiences on the forum.

Is this happening on other servers too? Or did everyone on Ostermark suddenly get a subconscious urge to stop queuing for mourkain and stonetroll?

edit: in case it hasn't been mentioned yet, phoenix gate sucks ass.  :heartbreak:


-- Z.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Draegan on October 04, 2008, 07:35:35 AM
I'm Order on Azazel and my queues for Mourkain is less than a minute, Stonetroll is under 2 minutes and Phoenix Gate is around 3-5 minutes.  I leveled from 20-22 by just doing Scenarios right after the other.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Khaldun on October 04, 2008, 08:16:08 AM
The only t2 scenario that pops on Ostermark since the patch is Phoenix Gate.
Yesterday I spent 3-4 hours in queue for the other two [at prime time]... nothing. Others reported similar experiences on the forum.

Is this happening on other servers too? Or did everyone on Ostermark suddenly get a subconscious urge to stop queuing for mourkain and stonetroll?

edit: in case it hasn't been mentioned yet, phoenix gate sucks ass.  :heartbreak:


-- Z.

Same on Kislev. Just Phoenix Gate, nothing else. And when you show up, everyone grouses that it's Phoenix Gate, so I don't think anyone is choosing it preferentially.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 04, 2008, 09:24:55 AM
The one thing Mythic didn't bother doing is balancing classes with each other as you level up.  Some classes get awesome abilities early, some get them late.  Lets see balance at Rank 40, then we can judge it.
I'd love to, but, oh, darn, I'm stuck at rank 32 because there are no T4 scenarios popping, just as there were no T3 scenarios popping when I was stuck at 22 almost two weeks ago.  Questing (read: grinding like it's some cave troll MMO like FFXI or Lineage) isn't something I do, I'm better than that.

And... 10 days until WoW patch 3.0 and then I'll never look back.  It's a shame Mythic was so embarrassed by their endgame that they had to add an xp cockblock immediately before release. 


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: bhodikhan on October 04, 2008, 09:51:11 AM
It's a shame Mythic was so embarrassed by their endgame that they had to add an xp cockblock immediately before release. 

And that's the truth. The T3 grind is crazy broing. I hate the PVE in this game and leveling up in Scenarios if they pop seems really slow.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Threash on October 04, 2008, 10:04:06 AM
The one thing Mythic didn't bother doing is balancing classes with each other as you level up.  Some classes get awesome abilities early, some get them late.  Lets see balance at Rank 40, then we can judge it.
I'd love to, but, oh, darn, I'm stuck at rank 32 because there are no T4 scenarios popping, just as there were no T3 scenarios popping when I was stuck at 22 almost two weeks ago.  Questing (read: grinding like it's some cave troll MMO like FFXI or Lineage) isn't something I do, I'm better than that.

And... 10 days until WoW patch 3.0 and then I'll never look back.  It's a shame Mythic was so embarrassed by their endgame that they had to add an xp cockblock immediately before release. 

How are you so far ahead of the curve without grinding?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 04, 2008, 10:12:42 AM
How are you so far ahead of the curve without grinding?

Scenarios.  I did quests to level 8 in T1, then Nordenwatch.  I did quests to level 16 in T2, then Morkain's Temple.  I did quests to... 23 or 24 in T3, then Talabec Dam (that was hell) to 27, then Tor Anroc to 32, now I'm sitting on my hands.  That small bit of questing in 23 and 24 is where I realized that Mythic had really screwed the PvE pooch.

At one point in T3 I ground out like 100 squigs for a kill collector, then found out that KCs only give you xp for 60 total.  I was watching a movie at the time, and it still sucked.  That little experience was less fun than reading a novel for 8 hours during Jury Duty.  When an aspect of a game is less fun than Jury Duty, something's fucked.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Draegan on October 04, 2008, 12:19:16 PM
I think you're playing the game wrong, or you're a bitter catass.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 04, 2008, 12:28:10 PM
I think you're playing the game wrong, or you're a bitter catass.

There's no such thing as playing a game wrong, shame on you for that trite line. Players will play how they want, what they enjoy doing and that's the point. If your game does not cater to some people, these people won't play your game. It's as simple as that. The real question is how many people your game caters to really, is this number high or low, can your game appeal to enough people to be worth making? who knows but there is no WRONG way to play.

Also this is the same reason why adding exp bonuses to order will not work because most people want to play destruction, exp is a treat that may entice people but it's telling them they are playing wrong and if they play right they will get rewarded and it's missing the point entirely.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: amiable on October 04, 2008, 12:41:02 PM
I think you're playing the game wrong, or you're a bitter catass.

There's no such thing as playing a game wrong, shame on you for that trite line.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  This is a PvP oriented game designed to foster competition.  If you grind your way to the top without experience scenarios, keep sieges, world pvp objectives, etc... you are going to have a miserable time because the PvE experience in this game is designed solely as a supplement to the PvP.  It's like playing the tetris mini-game add-on in WoW and than complaining the game sucks because the Tetris game you downloaded on your computer is so much better.  What will happen when most of the characters level out of the lowbie zones and there is no one to play against?  I bet you 5 dollars that mythic ups the XP curve (which is obvious if they are smart).  You can grind up to 70 in WoW chain killing murlocs, but if you run to the boards to complain that murloc killing is boring and no one is 70 yet because they are busy "questing" so the end game sucks people will probably look at you rather quizzically and say "you really should go quest."

I think a a lot of folks entered into this game with a WoW mentality, and after discovering that it is not in fact WoW 2.0 got upset.  Most of the people I see complaining either:

1.  Catassed to Tier 4 and now are bored because no one is there yet.

2.  Rolled Destruction on an overpopulated server and are frustrated with queues.

Number 1 is your fault, and it's not like  you didn't know what you were getting into when you did it, so you really shouldn't complain.

Number 2 is Mythics fault, but you always have the option to roll Order and have a much better time of it.  i mean you have only invested a few weeks into your destruction toon, it's not like it is that hug of a loss.

My wife and I are having a wonderful time playing in Bat country, there are always guild groups going and everyone I play with seems to be having a lot of fun.  it seems to be going very well right now, so I don't understand the rage.  If you like WoW better, play Wow, but we will be staying.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: trias_e on October 04, 2008, 12:43:26 PM
Quote
Scenarios.  I did quests to level 8 in T1, then Nordenwatch.  I did quests to level 16 in T2, then Morkain's Temple.  I did quests to... 23 or 24 in T3, then Talabec Dam (that was hell) to 27, then Tor Anroc to 32, now I'm sitting on my hands.  That small bit of questing in 23 and 24 is where I realized that Mythic had really screwed the PvE pooch.

I don't see why people complain so much about the PvE in tier 3.  I'm 25 and have completed all chapter 11s, and a couple chapter 12s.  The quest reward xp is much lower in proportion than it used to be, true, but it's still reasonable as long as you combine it with other activities. I still enjoy varying my activity as I did in the earlier tiers.  Sometimes I'll solo quest and do scenarios at the same time.  Other times I'll find a group doing PQs and hang around them for a while.  I even play the other scenarios, regardless that they give less XP and pop less often.  This all makes me happy playing, yes, even in the 'hell' of tier 3.  The only thing that bothers me is that Open RvR is empty most of the time.  But I still have fun playing the game and don't even look at my XP bar, which is fun that I guess other people are not having.


Quote

There's no such thing as playing a game wrong, shame on you for that trite line

There is definitely such a thing as playing a game wrong.  I'm not saying Seanzor is playing the game wrong (certainly leveling too quickly isn't blameworthy), but for instance, if you just grind mobs to 60 in WoW and complain about the lack of quests...you're playing the game wrong.  To a lesser degree, if like Yahtzee you play EvE only as a solo quest WoW-type game, you're playing the game wrong.  You might not like playing the game the 'right' way, which is of course perfectly fair to complain about.  But if you are playing the game counter to it's design and strengths, you have no right to complain about the way you are playing the game resulting in no fun. 



Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 04, 2008, 12:50:36 PM
As to "if you don't like queues roll order" well if I'm having trouble getting a girl then I should try guys?(with increased blowjob skill as incentive) Sorry it's stupid logic in any scenario.

Also I think you're missing the point, this is a consumer driven system and it's the customer that ultimately decides what they want. Just because I hated the sims doesn't mean I was playing it wrong, it also didn't make the sims a bad game but it wasn't for me. Warhammer is not for him, he's not doing it wrong, he's doing it the way he wants and that is all that matters, period. He'll vote with his money as will many others, as many here do not play wow or eq2. 

The question is not now nor will it ever be "are you playing this wrong?" it is "Are you having fun playing?" and that's a question only individuals can answer.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 04, 2008, 01:15:16 PM
How does not doing quests, not grinding = catass?  I never rolled an alt prior to being stuck around T4.  I just did other shit.  The vast majority of my time has been spent in scenarios, getting xp that blows anything else out of the water.  The game's been out long enough for me to hit T4 and still have, what, 4-5 days now where I haven't so much as touched the game?

Yeah, I'm captain catass.

Edit:  As to playing the game wrong... If anything, I'm playing the game right.  Only a moron or rabid fanboy (or someone who hasn't cleared T2) would think that WAR has PvE that is anything other than laughably bad.  Where's the confusion, here?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: trias_e on October 04, 2008, 01:42:46 PM
Quote

Edit:  As to playing the game wrong... If anything, I'm playing the game right.  Only a moron or rabid fanboy (or someone who hasn't cleared T2) would think that WAR has PvE that is anything other than laughably bad.  Where's the confusion, here?

What's the difference between T2 and T3 PvE other than relative XP is worse in T3?  I honestly don't see it.

I also don't see any difference between WAR solo questing and WoW questing (which everyone seems to think is at least decent).  Could someone please enlighten me?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Kirth on October 04, 2008, 01:49:46 PM
As to "if you don't like queues roll order" well if I'm having trouble getting a girl then I should try guys?(with increased blowjob skill as incentive)

how long is the queue for the girls your trying to get?  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 04, 2008, 02:03:19 PM
As to "if you don't like queues roll order" well if I'm having trouble getting a girl then I should try guys?(with increased blowjob skill as incentive)

how long is the queue for the girls your trying to get?  :why_so_serious:

Not long enough to make me switch teams....yet? :drillf:


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 04, 2008, 02:04:41 PM
Quote

Edit:  As to playing the game wrong... If anything, I'm playing the game right.  Only a moron or rabid fanboy (or someone who hasn't cleared T2) would think that WAR has PvE that is anything other than laughably bad.  Where's the confusion, here?

What's the difference between T2 and T3 PvE other than relative XP is worse in T3?  I honestly don't see it.

I also don't see any difference between WAR solo questing and WoW questing (which everyone seems to think is at least decent).  Could someone please enlighten me?

I don't mean to be vitriolic, but if you can't spot the difference between WAR questing and WoW questing on your own, you're not going to spot it with some assistance, either.  That said, an explanation is included below, free of charge.

So, what's the difference between T2 and T3 PvE?  Well, that's just it - there isn't one, except that the quests give you about 1/3 of the xp they give you in T2 (relative to the xp needed to level).  So, what happens is, you're still doing the same stupid shit that a 5-year-old could do well, except you have to do more of it, for longer, until you eventually run out (assuming you're *just* questing).

The quests are fucking dumb.  Quests aren't fun, but they're more fun than grinding, which is why WoW and WAR and EQ2 and any other game with a big dumb chunk of leveling through PvE has them.  When you run out of your shitty quests, then things *really* suck.

The core of this rotten apple, though, is that being level boring is FUCKING STUPID.  There's no good reason to actually slow down the speed with which a player approaches level cap, where the game is at its most complex, intricate, and engaging.  If Mythic hadn't kneecapped leveling rates *immediately* before release, none of this shit would be an issue.

Sorry, open RvR before level 40 is stupid.  There is no benefit at all to your faction controlling keeps, that went away when Altdorf hit rank 2.  The xp and renown from open RvR is insultingly bad, and any claim is that people should raid keeps before T4 solely because it's fun (in defiance of the lack of any reward structure worth mentioning) is naive at best.

This is a fucking MMO - players go where the rewards are, it's not rocket science; it's a basic fucking tenet of MMO design.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: amiable on October 04, 2008, 02:40:00 PM
How does not doing quests, not grinding = catass?  I never rolled an alt prior to being stuck around T4.  I just did other shit.  The vast majority of my time has been spent in scenarios, getting xp that blows anything else out of the water.  The game's been out long enough for me to hit T4 and still have, what, 4-5 days now where I haven't so much as touched the game?

Yeah, I'm captain catass.

Edit:  As to playing the game wrong... If anything, I'm playing the game right.  Only a moron or rabid fanboy (or someone who hasn't cleared T2) would think that WAR has PvE that is anything other than laughably bad.  Where's the confusion, here?


Were you exploiting the "leave the party" bug to garner experience at a much higher rate than intended and thus level much faster than everyone else?  If so, hi there Captain Catass!


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 04, 2008, 02:42:43 PM
Were you exploiting the "leave the party" bug to garner experience at a much higher rate than intended and thus level much faster than everyone else?  If so, hi there Captain Catass!

Oh that's a 'bug', now?  Oops, due to a glitch in the code, there's a fully functioning "LEAVE PARTY" button?

Also, catass = doing something to minimize time spent in-game?

Gimmie some of your kool-aid, it sounds delicious.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: amiable on October 04, 2008, 02:52:16 PM
Were you exploiting the "leave the party" bug to garner experience at a much higher rate than intended and thus level much faster than everyone else?  If so, hi there Captain Catass!

Oh that's a 'bug', now?  Oops, due to a glitch in the code, there's a fully functioning "LEAVE PARTY" button?

Also, catass = doing something to minimize time spent in-game?

Gimmie some of your kool-aid, it sounds delicious.

Could you take the nerdrage down about 3 notches?  I'm not trying to insult you.  It is quite obviously a bug and doing it gave you huge xp bonus and let your level very fast.  Perhaps catass is the wrong word, but you did level much faster than folks doing comparable activities, and now you are at a point in the game where you can't PvP because no one else has caught up to you.   Hence the problem.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Goreschach on October 04, 2008, 03:21:20 PM
Is there any particular reason you two decided to shit up this thread?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Arthur_Parker on October 04, 2008, 04:07:41 PM
Gimmie some of your kool-aid, it sounds delicious.

Why are you so upset?  If you don't like it, don't play it.  Saying WOW is less grindy, questing in WAR is pointless, while also mentioning about how you afk WOW battlegrounds is silly.  Start a thread in the WOW sub forum and high five Cevik.  WAR has got lots of problems but the main thing it's got going for it is, it's not WOW.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 04, 2008, 04:22:25 PM
Gimmie some of your kool-aid, it sounds delicious.

Why are you so upset?  If you don't like it, don't play it.  Saying WOW is less grindy, questing in WAR is pointless, while also mentioning about how you afk WOW battlegrounds is silly.  Start a thread in the WOW sub forum and high five Cevik.  WAR has got lots of problems but the main thing it's got going for it is, it's not WOW.

Except it really is.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: trias_e on October 04, 2008, 05:01:40 PM
I agree that Mythic totally fucked up giving proper incentives to people in solo questing and open RvR.   I also agree that it sucks they didn't put in enough decent content/solid enough xp for people to solo quest if they get to T3 and T4 before everyone else.  Public Quests get old very quickly because they are all the same, and they are mostly useless because they don't scale.  That said, I certainly don't mind doing them every once in a while.

However, you didn't mention a single difference between WAR and WoW questing other than WARs lacking the proper incentive.  I think it's fair to say there isn't one.  If Mythic simply doubled every quest reward, there would be no difference whatsoever in the two systems.  I personally don't mind this too much: I treasure variety of gameplay and progression over brute progression speed personally.  This is probably why I am enjoying myself still.

But I will admit I may be a minority.  Many people as you say just go where the incentives are, and this causes serious problems for those wanting to, say, play other scenarios other than Tor Anroc.  I agree that this will screw over Mythic, because most people play these games as a grind from start to finish.  Progress Quest to the max.

However, if you don't have that mentality, and you enjoy the PvP (and to a smaller extent the PvE, which I agree is not phenomenally fun in and of itself but I feel is at least decent) I don't think you'll have any problems having fun in this game.  Of course, unless if you're in the top 10th percentile of players in leveling speed, in which you get screwed every time you get into a new tier.  Oh, also if you're a new player starting in a month.  You guys are screwed.  (this does suck)

Quote
Except it really is.

1-39 leveling-wise it's WoW except with a focus on PvP instead of PvE (which I admit isn't a huge difference in overall gameplay).  However, end game there surely is going to be a fairly large difference as there is no raid progression end game in WAR.  Correct me if I'm wrong.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 04, 2008, 05:19:56 PM
There's going to be catass dungeon instances and raids, only thing is you'll need to capture an enemy city first to get to them. You spend your time pvp'ing so in the end you get to....PVE! yay.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 04, 2008, 05:21:36 PM
There are no Raids in WAR.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Seanzor on October 04, 2008, 05:38:09 PM
It is quite obviously a bug and doing it gave you huge xp bonus and let your level very fast. 
It is quite obviously not a bug.  It's a piss-poor design decision, but it's not a bug.  Unless you really do think the "leave party" button just, whoops, slipped in there somehow.
I am exploiting a poor design choice, not a *bug*.  Pretty big difference.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 04, 2008, 06:09:20 PM
There are no Raids in WAR.

warbands, sorry unless you think there won't be warband fights or warband dungeons in pve....which they have said explicitly there would be.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Draegan on October 04, 2008, 08:36:00 PM
You only need a warband to slay the King.  That's about it.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 04, 2008, 09:14:35 PM
You only need a warband to slay the King.  That's about it.

How many people are in a warband?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Draegan on October 04, 2008, 09:38:27 PM
You only need a warband to slay the King.  That's about it.

How many people are in a warband?

4 groups why?


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: amiable on October 05, 2008, 04:23:59 AM

It is quite obviously not a bug.  It's a piss-poor design decision, but it's not a bug.  Unless you really do think the "leave party" button just, whoops, slipped in there somehow.
I am exploiting a poor design choice, not a *bug*.  Pretty big difference.


OK, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.  While I'm sure the ability to leave a party was intended, I'm also relatively sure that Mythic did not intend for folks doing so to make vastly more XP/reknown than those who don't.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Khaldun on October 05, 2008, 03:34:46 PM
I'm sure they didn't intend it. I'm equally sure that they're basically stupid for having not thought about it and fixed it.

A lot of WAR feels like a violent disconnect between extremely clear design documents, a clear understanding of their market niche, and the actual programmers, who basically seem to have coded a kind of vanilla what-EVER design at the level of everyday mechanics. Some of the missing functionality even after this patch is kind of eye-bugging unbelievable, but the persistent inability to figure out how to incentive people to play (consistently all the way up) with strangers in groups is really bad. The technical crap I can actually forgive (for a while), the mechanics, when they reward people for being anti-group misanthropes, are pretty unforgivable.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Simond on October 05, 2008, 04:15:08 PM
You only need a warband to slay the King.  That's about it.

How many people are in a warband?

4 groups why?
So it's a raid, then?  :grin:


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Evildrider on October 05, 2008, 04:28:25 PM
You only need a warband to slay the King.  That's about it.

How many people are in a warband?

4 groups why?
So it's a raid, then?  :grin:

Then that makes PQ's raids too.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: tkinnun0 on October 06, 2008, 04:01:04 AM
Yes, it does. From the sounds of it a raid that can be zerged, but a raid nonetheless.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 04:09:30 AM
Look, there's a key difference between raids and all of the "can zerg" things in WAR. That is, the way loot is distributed, it's highly advantageous to do any PQ or Keep-Taking with the smallest number of people you can, whereas other games have content that simply requires an ass-ton of people. If you can take a keep in Tier 3 with 6 level 31s (and you probably can maybe, if you're AWESOME), you should do so. If you can finish a PQ with 3 people in a reasonable amount of time, it's worth doing so.

You can not - CAN NOT - do that in other games. I think that's where the "raid" part gets thrown out the window.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: trias_e on October 06, 2008, 04:53:17 AM
Quote
Insert Quote
Yes, it does. From the sounds of it a raid that can be zerged, but a raid nonetheless.

Schild points out that you don't need to 'raid' (total misnomer for this game if you understand what the concept means in EQ/WoW) anything in WAR except for perhaps the king.  There's another significant difference, and that is you don't have to schedule 3-6 nights a week of your time and coordinate with the same 23 players every night to do what you want to do in WAR at the end game.

At 40, when open RvR will become a big focus, players basically create your content and shape your gameplay experience (for good or bad).  You could say you are raiding a keep vs the enemy team, but this is a redefinition of the word raid as it is used in EQ or WoW, where it means 'you and your guild of merry men (likely asshats) fight the same mob for a week until you learn not to fuck up long enough to kill it, or you learn whatever dumb trick the developer wanted you to learn, so you can move to the next mob and do the same thing'.  That is what I'm saying is not in WAR.  And it's not.  That's the end game of WoW, well that and e-sports, which also aren't in WAR.

When you get into the city, there are big alterac valley style instances where you fight other players for control of areas of the city.  There are city only scenarios.  And there are PQs you try to accomplish while battling the other player.  This is most of the city content.  If you 'win', you get a small amount of PvE reward in exclusive dungeon/king battle.  Based on what Mythic's said, this content seems like it's going to be a very small amount of your overall gameplay at level 40.  And you sure don't have any 'progression' ala WoW.  It's just icing on the cake, not the point of the game.  I could be wrong, I haven't been there.  I'm just taking them for their word. 

Just because you have alot of people doing something doesn't make it similar to raiding in WoW. 


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: tkinnun0 on October 06, 2008, 11:22:39 AM
in EQ

If I remember the history correctly, in EQ there were no caps on raid size in the beginning, so the more people you brought the lesser the chance of anyone getting loot. In regards to PvE PQs it sounds like we've come a full circle.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: zubey on October 06, 2008, 01:29:17 PM
I know I'm like 2 pages too late, but what's the Squig Herder ability where my pet can snare?  I wasn't aware one existed.  (R18 SH here)


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: veredus on October 06, 2008, 01:41:55 PM
Across the board, SH skills deal less damage than the exact same SW skill.

Why? Because the pet makes up for it!

While sane on paper, it makes them shitty.

White Lions were a bit better back when the lion had no cooldown on death, he was used the same way squigs are: harassment of a healer. They added the cooldown because White Lions should totally not be using their pet as a suicide distraction.  :uhrr:

Magus seems to more be the opposite of a SW then a SH is.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: zubey on October 06, 2008, 01:46:39 PM
Magus seems to more be the opposite of a SW then a SH is.

Magus is the Engineer mirror.

SH is definitely the SW mirror.  Compare the mastery trees and you'll see.  Especially the bonuses the pets give versus the stances.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Evildrider on October 06, 2008, 01:46:51 PM
Across the board, SH skills deal less damage than the exact same SW skill.

Why? Because the pet makes up for it!

While sane on paper, it makes them shitty.

White Lions were a bit better back when the lion had no cooldown on death, he was used the same way squigs are: harassment of a healer. They added the cooldown because White Lions should totally not be using their pet as a suicide distraction.  :uhrr:

Magus seems to more be the opposite of a SW then a SH is.

They are actually the Engineer counterpart.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Cadaverine on October 06, 2008, 04:16:12 PM
SW is the mirror of the Marauder, IMO.  Even though one is ranged, and one is melee, they have the stances in common, or whatever they want to label Marauders mutations.
Which makes Squig Herder, and White Lion the Pet mirrors, as well as reversing the Ranged - Melee dichotomy.   I suppose WL and Marauder could have similar Talent trees, but I don't use that as a mirror point as all the archetypes have pretty much the same talent trees, frankly.



Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: rk47 on October 06, 2008, 11:50:52 PM
SW is the mirror of the Marauder, IMO.  Even though one is ranged, and one is melee, they have the stances in common, or whatever they want to label Marauders mutations.
Which makes Squig Herder, and White Lion the Pet mirrors, as well as reversing the Ranged - Melee dichotomy.   I suppose WL and Marauder could have similar Talent trees, but I don't use that as a mirror point as all the archetypes have pretty much the same talent trees, frankly.



this is a very good observation on his part, and I actually agree. Since it brings both to similiar level of awesome and suckageness. I see no error in his logic.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 07, 2008, 06:48:44 AM
SWs and Marauders share a mechanic (stances/mutations)

SWs and SH's share a class archetype (archers/melee RDPS)

WLs and Marauders share a class archetype (medium melee dps)

It gets confusing, and some of the skills are on the wrong classes, but that's the basic breakdown. The pets fuck up the balance.

Squig herders deal less damage across the board than SW's, on a skill basis.

WL's deal less damage across the board than Marauders, on a skill basis.

If the pets didn't suck, it might make up for it.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: schild on October 07, 2008, 07:43:33 AM
Too bad marauders are like absolutely shitty witch elves in PvP.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: kildorn on October 07, 2008, 07:53:27 AM
Marauders can fuck up a lot if they really want to. It's mostly tied up in their AEs. Adding a 1s buildup as an AE is pretty brutal for anything in melee range of the destro front lines., throw in a passive 50% armor ignore and cook until done.

Marauders have all the mdps issues (soft, issues closing, vulnerable to ranged behind lines), but add in a base 25% more damage than a white lion, and a completely decked out melee AE tree.

Witch Elves kill casters, Marauders kill semi armored melees.


Title: Re: 1.01 Discussion
Post by: Zetor on October 07, 2008, 07:54:46 AM
Marauder mortal strike is also 75% (if specced), witch elf mortal strike is only 50% and dispellable, iirc.


-- Z.