KOTOR MMO Official!?

[UnSub]

There's not another developer out there that can do that.  Not SOE, not BioWare/EA.  It's especially more difficult if you're relying on outside funding.  Those nice VC's that are going to give you millions of dollars to develop your game are going to want more than a presentation on why YOUR game is uber and will rule them all.  They want website hit numbers, message boards, etc to show there is interest in it, and that it's a wise investment.

Fallen Earth LLC is doing it, mostly. They have talked about what the game will contain a bit (and have an official forum that shows Google Ads for WoW and Eve gold selling services  ) but in general they've kept quiet about how the game will play until they were mostly feature complete. They aren't perfect, but they've done a better job in getting things right before they talk about them than a lot of other companies.

Cryptic appear to have announced ChampO 18 months prior to launch (although we'll see). Thus far their promotion has been light on in-game promises and heavy on dev profiles and lore.

How you court the VCs is one thing. How you court the public is a different kettle of fish. Announcing features that you have to cut, talking up in-game systems that are half-finished or starting beta before the entire MMO is ready are things we have complained about for YEARS.

The future rule of MMO promtion should be show, don't tell. WAR relied on video of that excitable Englishman telling everyone how awesome WAR was going to be, but the first in-game videos are pretty bland. While I think it is a better idea for Mythic to not ship 6 half-done cities if they can release 2 done right, they would have looked a lot better if they had never talked about 6 main cities in the first place.

So, there you are: UnSub's 1st Rule of Marketing MMOs: show, don't tell. If a MMO takes 5 years to develop, don't start talking about what it will contain in year 1. Wait until year 5.

[Jayce]

Why did the interviewee in the OP say that Vivendi "merged" with Activision because it wanted WoW? (btw, you don't "merge" with Vivendi, they buy you)

Was Activision ever a part of the picture or did he just also not know that Blizzard developed WoW?

edit: OK, google gave me some background on this Activision thing.  I guess he meant Activision wanted a piece of WoW?  I can't really get a sense of why the merger happened, and now that I think on it, I don't give a shit.

[Ingmar]

I know a whole bunch that agree that previous to CU SWG was one of the best games ever. Dont knock it for the failure it became.

hi

Oh, wait.  Sorry.  DIKU rules!  Woooooooh!  Gimmie that repetative level grinding soul crushing crap forevermore!  YEAH BABY.

A grind without levels is somehow less soul crushing?

[Lantyssa]

I didn't grind.  I futzed around, RP'd, tamed babies, and went exploring.

Why did you feel the need to grind?  What end were you trying to win in a goalless game?

[Ingmar]

I didn't grind.  I futzed around, RP'd, tamed babies, and went exploring.

Why did you feel the need to grind?  What end were you trying to win in a goalless game?

The first time I logged in, I was doing the little tutorial thing so I took my wookie scout (I think he was a scout, it was sooooo long ago) to the terminal and started doing the tasks set out for me.

First task, go kill some wildlife and get a pelt from it. Great, I can do this, go out, am a bit weirded out by the totally non-Star-Wars-y combat, but whatever, I can get used to that. Come back, turn it in, get some credits, some more tutorial crap to read.

Second task... go kill *90* of the same damn things. That's like the *definition* of grind to me.

[cevik]

I didn't grind.  I futzed around, RP'd, tamed babies, and went exploring.

Why did you feel the need to grind?  What end were you trying to win in a goalless game?

Hologrind.

[Mrbloodworth]

I didn't grind.  I futzed around, RP'd, tamed babies, and went exploring.

Why did you feel the need to grind?  What end were you trying to win in a goalless game?

Hologrind.

One of the things the game never needed.

[cevik]

I didn't grind.  I futzed around, RP'd, tamed babies, and went exploring.

Why did you feel the need to grind?  What end were you trying to win in a goalless game?

Hologrind.

One of the things the game never needed.

So now it's "Pre-CU/NGE SWG is the BEST GAME EVAR (if you ignore all the parts that sucked!)"?

Not to mention, getting master smuggler second my server sucked balls and was a serious grind.  Mostly because after there was one master smuggler, why let some second rate scrub have a chance of fucking up your weapon when you could just wait for the Master Smuggler to log on and have a better chance for success.

[Mrbloodworth]

I didn't grind.  I futzed around, RP'd, tamed babies, and went exploring.

Why did you feel the need to grind?  What end were you trying to win in a goalless game?

Hologrind.

One of the things the game never needed.

So now it's "Pre-CU/NGE SWG is the BEST GAME EVAR (if you ignore all the parts that sucked!)"?

Not what i said. I always have said there were things that were bad, but did not require the NGE to fix. AKA: Knee jerk reactions. I think i already listed the things that i felt were a bad part of the game, in an unordered list, that someone tryed to correct my time line, that i didn't post, because it didn't matter. Also, i played before that system even hit.

[cevik]

Not what i said.

You didn't, but others did:

I know a whole bunch that agree that previous to CU SWG was one of the best games ever. Dont knock it for the failure it became.

hi

Oh, wait.  Sorry.  DIKU rules!  Woooooooh!  Gimmie that repetative level grinding soul crushing crap forevermore!  YEAH BABY.

Fact of the matter is, Pre-CU/NGE SWG sucked and was grindy as hell.  But of course I'll be told I didn't play it right.

[Soln]

this caught my eye awhile back, only available now via Google cache since the company was bought out and no sign of the deal with the new parent:

Engenuity's AI.implant to Power BioWare's Next Game

Award-winning artificial intelligence middleware to bring new dimension to BioWare Corp.’s upcoming titles

PDFSAN FRANCISCO – March 7, 2007 – Engenuity Technologies Inc. [“Engenuity” or the “Company”] [TSX: EGY], a global leader in providing artificial intelligence (AI) tools and middleware for games, animation and simulation, announced today that BioWare, one of the world’s most respected independent game developers, has selected AI.implant for a major upcoming title.

AI.implant’s tight integration with Epic Games’ Unreal Engine 3 (UE3) game platform was a key factor in the selection. This allows game developers at BioWare to take advantage of enhanced AI tools directly within the UE3 development environment.  Tools such as AI.implant’s unique Visual Brain Authoring enable fast, programmer-free creation of complex decision-making trees, while features such as Dynamic Path Refinement bring smooth, life-like motion to even the most complex game environments.

“BioWare is known worldwide as a leader in character and story-based games. Our fans look to us to bring them superior immersive gaming experiences,” said Greg Zeschuk, president of BioWare Corp. “Innovative and powerful tools such as AI.implant help keep our titles on the forefront of next generation gaming.   While we considered other technology options, AI.implant’s leading Unreal 3 integration, dynamic pathfinding and great support made it a very simple decision to make.”

In addition to the first title, Canada-based BioWare Corp., developer of well-known titles such as Baldur’s GateTM, Jade Empire,  Neverwinter NightsTM, and Star Wars®: Knights of the Old RepublicTM, has also purchased options to use AI.implant in future titles.

“For a high profile game developer like BioWare to select AI.implant, is a testament to the depth and quality of our middleware solution,” said Dr. Paul Kruszewski, chief technology officer at Engenuity and founder of AI.implant. “From customer support to our aggressive development cycle, Engenuity’s commitment to the needs of high-end game development studios, like BioWare, makes AI.implant the premium AI tool.”

For more information, please visit www.ai-implant.com.  
-30-


About Engenuity Technologies Inc.
Engenuity Technologies Inc. (TSX: EGY) is a global leader in visualization and simulation software solutions for the aerospace, defense, automotive, games and entertainment markets. The company’s products and services are currently used by more than 800 customers in 40 countries, including many of the world’s largest organizations. Engenuity was recently awarded the prestigious Frost & Sullivan Product Innovation Award (2006) in Distributed Mission Operations, and AI.implant was honored with the 2006 Game Developer Magazine Frontline award for Middleware. Engenuity has offices and distributors throughout North America, Europe, and Asia. www.engenuitytech.com
 
About BioWare Corp.
BioWare Corp. is an electronic entertainment company which develops computer, console, handheld and online video games focused on rich stories and memorable characters. Since 1995, BioWare has created some of the world’s best-selling titles including the award-winning Baldur’s Gate™ and Neverwinter Nights™ series, as well as the 2003 Game of the Year, Star Wars®: Knights of the Old Republic™.  Original BioWare-created IP includes the 2005 RPG of the Year, Jade Empire™, with next generation titles Mass Effect™ and Dragon Age™ currently in development.  With studios in Edmonton, Canada, and Austin, Texas, BioWare is always hard at work on innovative entertainment products including a new title for the Nintendo DS™ and a massively multiplayer online game. For more information on BioWare, visit www.bioware.com.   All media inquiries can be directed to Matt Atwood at matwood@bioware.com.

[Lantyssa]

Fact of the matter is, Pre-CU/NGE SWG sucked and was grindy as hell.  But of course I'll be told I didn't play it right.

You're the one who suggested the hologrind above as if it was a good thing.  And ground out a smuggler.

I.  Didn't.  Grind.

I had fun.  Not my problem if you played it like a DIKU and expected a better result than, well, a DIKU.  So no, you weren't playing it right.  At least if you wanted any hope of enjoying it.

That's not to say there weren't problems.  When the five or so internal factions started to each trying to pull the game in their own direction without even agreeing on a path, the game became doomed.  But that wasn't what was asked nor implied.  If you want that, we've got two 100+ page threads to cover that ground, along with assorted other ones and an on-going ability to swamp threads about any other game.

[UnSub]

KOTORO: Enabling SWG threads since 2007.

[Sky]

Do you motherfuckers have any idea how hard it is to find new Vader pics? KotORO better not suck.

[TripleDES]

Except for the new Clone Wars movie coming out in August and the new SW TV show coming right?

There's actually a movie coming it? When I saw the trailers here in Europe, I thought it'd be the same bundle-and-show-as-movie shit they've done with the Clone Wars minisodes. I doubt that the movie and TV show are going to have as much pull as the live action movies.

[cevik]

Fact of the matter is, Pre-CU/NGE SWG sucked and was grindy as hell.  But of course I'll be told I didn't play it right.

You're the one who suggested the hologrind above as if it was a good thing.  And ground out a smuggler.

I.  Didn't.  Grind.

I didn't suggest it was a good thing.  I thought it was a stupid thing.  You asked:

I didn't grind.  I futzed around, RP'd, tamed babies, and went exploring.

Why did you feel the need to grind?  What end were you trying to win in a goalless game?

And I answered.  There were plenty of reasons to grind and the game was just as grindy as another other "DIKU" like game out there.  Just because it didn't have "levels" (well the levels weren't numbered at least), doesn't mean it wasn't grindy.  Fuck there was a new word created specifically because of one of the grind in Pre-CU/Pre-NGE SWG.

Great for you, you didn't grind.  Just because you played the game wrong doesn't mean it didn't suck.  If you'd pick up any "diku" and pretend it was a goalless game and ran around in newbieville never grinding out any levels you could have the same silly "social" experiences, but for some reason a game's grindiniess is somehow judged now on whether or not Lantyssa chooses to grind in it.

[Sir T]

Do you motherfuckers have any idea how hard it is to find new Vader pics? KotORO better not suck.

One word...

"NOOOOOOOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOOOOoooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooO!"

[Lantyssa]

And I answered.  There were plenty of reasons to grind and the game was just as grindy as another other "DIKU" like game out there.  Just because it didn't have "levels" (well the levels weren't numbered at least), doesn't mean it wasn't grindy.  Fuck there was a new word created specifically because of one of the grind in Pre-CU/Pre-NGE SWG.

Great for you, you didn't grind.  Just because you played the game wrong doesn't mean it didn't suck.  If you'd pick up any "diku" and pretend it was a goalless game and ran around in newbieville never grinding out any levels you could have the same silly "social" experiences, but for some reason a game's grindiniess is somehow judged now on whether or not Lantyssa chooses to grind in it.

Okie, I did ask that and kinda lumped the reply and your second post together and mixed it with a healthy dose of being badly distracted.  I'm sorry.

But no, I've found the social experiences couldn't be had in other games.  There was a lack of support in the game tools, the devs, and the players along with my own social inadequacies where things just 'clicked' in this game.  Sure there are little social RP enclaves, however the overall atmosphere was just different.  And sandbox-yness is more than just the social aspects.  That option simply isn't out there in any semi-decent playable form.  Not to mention a skill system where I could pick and choose...

Holocrons did add grind.  It was a stupid thing to do, and was the beginning of a series of bad decisions.  The sad thing?  I ignored holocrons other than curiosity and trying to find a pattern in the system.  I already knew what classes I was interested in mucking about with, and through a weird quirk discovered my hidden profession.  I would have actually unlocked a jedi, just playing the game in my own little aimless way, like the idealist devs intended.  But because everyone was grinding out jedi, they pushed the number of professions required up.  How's that for being the anti-thesis of their own game design?

[Mrbloodworth]

I dont even think the original path to jedi had anything to do with professions and mastery, i believe that was an "we need to hurry up and put in jedi".

I also never grinded.

[Jayce]

Aren't there other SWG threads for you guys to nerdrage on each other?

Let's talk about KOTORO.

I am intrigued but I'm not sure it will translate.  There will have to be some seriously talented designers around it.  The idea of a Star Warsy world without being shackled to the canon has a lot of potential, but given that it's EA, I think that there is a huge risk they will actually just strangle the IP in its infancy. Or maybe starve is a better metaphor...  Neglect?

[cevik]

How's that for being the anti-thesis of their own game design?

I don't think it was the anti-thesis of Raph's game design.  I see nothing in the original design that indicates to me that it was intended to be anything but grindy.  To get max level master in any profession you either had to be "first" so that the stuff you were creating/services you were performing we required by everyone else all the way up, or you had to grind on crap that no one really wanted.  Smuggler is a great example of this, especially since slicing weapons by a Master Smuggler had a better chance than just a Master Slicer, thus even if you only wanted to slice you had to grind out the combat parts of Smuggler to maintain a steady business doing it.  But you also had to stand in the city and spam to offer to slice containers for people so you could grind out the slicing part too.

And the combat professions were no different than any "diku" combat profession in any game.  Well other than they lacked questing (unless you consider the terminals to be questing, which is pretty weak).  So to level up master a combat profession the only option was to go grind out your skills by killing millions of little foozles until you were good enough to kill giant foozles.  The only difference was that foozles were named mynocks so you could pretend you were Han Solo.

[Ghambit]

My hopes for KOTORO is a game that combines some of The Force: Unleashed, JTL, Bushido Blade (for Playstation), Enter the Matrix/MxO, and WW2O in a pure action/adventure dungeon-crawling, wing commander-esque extravaganza.  All of this would take place while we get the microscopically detailed narrative of life as a budding Jedi to a Jedi Master, to a Jedi Ghost.  Skills would be non-apparent and only realized/improved/maintained through monk-like disciplined practice.  Also, the Sith MUST be a playable class and factionalized combat and RvR a reality.  An AOO similar to WW2O or Darkfall would be nice for PvP... the sith and the jedi would battle it out for the galaxy in sky, sea, air, ground, and space.

As much as I love the Sandbox (as you all well know), it doesnt fit into the idea of KOTOR.  Although I DO believe giving players simple choices goes a long way.  Player housing being one of them.  Custom starships, speeders, clothing, and weapons another.

As simple and great as all this sounds though, we all know they'll give us shyt in comparison and the game will probably be a disappointment.  Let us not forget how LucasArts operates these days.  And EA is here with us also.  The odds are not with us here fellas.

[cevik]

As simple and great as all this sounds though, we all know they'll give us shyt in comparison and the game will probably be a disappointment.  Let us not forget how LucasArts operates these days.  And EA is here with us also.  The odds are not with us here fellas.

The only hope I have is that before SWG was released conventional wisdom was that you could shit in a box and put the Star Wars label on it and it will hit 1 million+ subscribers easily.  So SOE got Raph to shit in a box for them, they labeled it Star Wars and it flopped in a tremendous way.  It was such a disappointment that they've now tried three different smelling loads of diarrhea (in both chunky and smooth varieties) in the same box to see if they can get anything to sell.

So maybe, just maybe, they've decided the shit in a box business model isn't all it's cracked up to be and they're going to go a different path with KOTORO.  I'm not going to hold my breath (unless I walk near any SWG boxes in the bargain bin!).

[Ghambit]

As simple and great as all this sounds though, we all know they'll give us shyt in comparison and the game will probably be a disappointment.  Let us not forget how LucasArts operates these days.  And EA is here with us also.  The odds are not with us here fellas.

The only hope I have is that before SWG was released conventional wisdom was that you could shit in a box and put the Star Wars label on it and it will hit 1 million+ subscribers easily.  So SOE got Raph to shit in a box for them, they labeled it Star Wars and it flopped in a tremendous way.  It was such a disappointment that they've now tried three different smelling loads of diarrhea (in both chunky and smooth varieties) in the same box to see if they can get anything to sell.

So maybe, just maybe, they've decided the shit in a box business model isn't all it's cracked up to be and they're going to go a different path with KOTORO.  I'm not going to hold my breath (unless I walk near any SWG boxes in the bargain bin!).

I'd always thought SWG would've been fine if WoW hadnt come along.  WoW stole subscribers along with brainwashing the folks at Sony to drink plenty of Castor Oil, thereby producing said buckets of diarrhea.
Regardless, KOTORO's game design is most likely set in stone... so any "ooops, this is gonna suck" (which is likely) isnt going to be fixed in time for a viable release schedule.  A lot of today's gaming mantras wont make it into the Alpha... so today's shit is literally yesterday's diarrhea (coagulated and extra smelly).

[Ratman_tf]

Not what i said.

You didn't, but others did:

I know a whole bunch that agree that previous to CU SWG was one of the best games ever. Dont knock it for the failure it became.

hi

Oh, wait.  Sorry.  DIKU rules!  Woooooooh!  Gimmie that repetative level grinding soul crushing crap forevermore!  YEAH BABY.

Fact of the matter is, Pre-CU/NGE SWG sucked and was grindy as hell.  But of course I'll be told I didn't play it right.

It was the best sandbox since UO.

[cevik]

I'd always thought SWG would've been fine if WoW hadnt come along.  WoW stole subscribers along with brainwashing the folks at Sony to drink plenty of Castor Oil, thereby producing said buckets of diarrhea.

The diarrhea was in the original box.  The game sucked as release and greatly underperformed it's expectations.  The general rule of thumb around these parts before SWG was released was that it was easily going to top 1 million subscribers.  But it doesn't matter what we said here, it matters that SOE and LA believed it was going to top 1 million subscribers.

The game was released June of 2003, WoW was released in November of 2004.  They had a year and a half to build a subscriber base before there was any competition from WoW.  If I had come to whichever incarnation of these boards existed in 2002 and said "SWG will top out at 300,000 subscribers at it's all time peak" I would have been laughed off the board.

[Margalis]

Raph's design for SWG was bad but I can't blame him. He was the wrong fit for that game. It's like getting the City of Lost Children guy to direct Alien 4, not a bad director just a bad fit. To me the blame with the execs who stuck the wrong guy on the wrong project and ended up with very predictable results.

[cevik]

It was the best sandbox since UO.

We agree on this point, but when I say that sentence in my head it's probably much more insulting to the game than you intend it to be.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

So everyone thinks the Bioware/LEC/EA "interactive product" will be an actual MMO more or less like any other MMO and not something radically different?

Not something that plays on consoles and your cell phone and your PC? Or something like a "Star Wars Hero" game with your own lightsaber and footpad so it would be like a "Star Wars Fit" game?

[schild]

So everyone thinks the Bioware/LEC/EA "interactive product" will be an actual MMO more or less like any other MMO and not something radically different?

Not something that plays on consoles and your cell phone and your PC? Or something like a "Star Wars Hero" game with your own lightsaber and footpad so it would be like a "Star Wars Fit" game?

1. It's possible that they're making more than one title. Especially with Lucasarts farming EVERYTHING out these days.
2. Gordon Walton, Damion Schubert, Ashen Temper. Comeon. Yes, it'll be an MMOG more or less like every other MMOG.

Of course, it's entirely possible they hired all of them to just confuse everyone, but it's unlikely. These are specific people with specific skills in a specific genre.

[eldaec]

So everyone thinks the Bioware/LEC/EA "interactive product" will be an actual MMO more or less like any other MMO and not something radically different?

Not something that plays on consoles and your cell phone and your PC? Or something like a "Star Wars Hero" game with your own lightsaber and footpad so it would be like a "Star Wars Fit" game?

Bioware

Lucasarts

Electronic Arts


Now, what do you think is more likely? These companies may have many fine qualities, but innovation isn't one of them.

[rk47]

WTB Midichlorians:Force Push
WTS E11 Blaster Rifle +2
'You must hunt down these Tusken Raiders till you find my missing moisture vaporator for my farming equipment!' Farmer Skywalker
Reward: Tusken Stun Rod

[Simond]

WTB Midichlorians:Force Push
WTS E11 Blaster Rifle +2
'You must hunt down these Tusken Raiders till you find my missing moisture vaporator for my farming equipment!' Farmer Skywalker
Reward: Tusken Stun Rod

And it'd still be a better game than SWG. 

[Murgos]

So everyone thinks the Bioware/LEC/EA "interactive product" will be an actual MMO more or less like any other MMO and not something radically different?

Not something that plays on consoles and your cell phone and your PC? Or something like a "Star Wars Hero" game with your own lightsaber and footpad so it would be like a "Star Wars Fit" game?

1. It's possible that they're making more than one title. Especially with Lucasarts farming EVERYTHING out these days.
2. Gordon Walton, Damion Schubert, Ashen Temper. Comeon. Yes, it'll be an MMOG more or less like every other MMOG.

Of course, it's entirely possible they hired all of them to just confuse everyone, but it's unlikely. These are specific people with specific skills in a specific genre.

After the SWG debacle anyone even dreaming the phrase, 'radical design' would come in to work the next day to a box of their stuff and a pink slip.

[Jayce]

Bioware

Lucasarts

Electronic Arts


 These companies may have many fine qualities,.

Leaving aside Bioware, name one.