KOTOR MMO Official!?

[Fabricated]

I saw "WATCH OUT WORLD OF WARCRAFT" and immediately lost interest.

[SnakeCharmer]

Interesting first post.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Will it have smuggler missions?

yes, but only Imperials will be able to successfully complete them   

[Falwell]

Somebody wake up Stormwaltz just so he can come in and tell us he still doesn't know / can't talk about anything regarding this.

Otherwise, good shit. Oh and going straight out of the gate with full digital download for an MMO? At least somebody is trying to catch up with the times.

[Mrbloodworth]

If I have to watch dancing to get healed, I won't fucking go near this game.

I also liked that mechanic too. Cantinas were great.

Sure, for the first three weeks, before they all became overrun with bots spamming "pLEASE TIP MEE!!" while they danced. The idea to have Master rank in a Social skill be required for Jedi advancement was absolutely retarded, and they should have known the botting would happen.

Yes, i said it never needed hologrinds. The path to jedi system was bad.

It needed work, but it never needed the NGE, hologrinds or doctor buffs. 

What the fuck? When we went on missions in the middle of nowhere, we were getting doctor buffed like +4000 on all HAM bars. Pre-NGE.

It an unordered list. 

[Venkman]

I'm not sure star wars as a franchise is as popular as geeks seem to think it is.

It's about timing. Between Ep3 and now there hasn't been a lot of big activity (mostly product/IP placement in other realms). But consider the potential timing of this game against the upcoming movie (this year- Clone Wars) and TV show (2010- between Ep4 and 5). Often, just those alone move boxes, even set in a different timeline. No idea how many boxes SWG ever sold, but KOTOR broke 1mil just on Xbox alone.

And personally, the whole pre-NGE frothing swgem vapor breather has been played out. That is a market probably even smaller than the DAoC RvR fan. KOTOR just for the Xbox itself sold more units probably than both SWG and DAoC combine.

And that's the other angle I don't see anyone talking about anywhere: SW + Bioware + EA: will this just/even be a PC MMO?

[Count Nerfedalot]

It's about timing. Between Ep3 and now there hasn't been a lot of big activity (mostly product/IP placement in other realms). But consider the potential timing of this game against the upcoming movie (this year- Clone Wars) and TV show (2010- between Ep4 and 5). Often, just those alone move boxes, even set in a different timeline. No idea how many boxes SWG ever sold, but KOTOR broke 1mil just on Xbox alone.

Timing is overrated compared to most other factors, especially quality/fun/polish.  Look how much timing did for the NGE (Ep3 release), HG:L (Halloween special stuff), etc.  About the only timing that really seems to matter is to avoid releasing anything within +/- 3 months of something new from Blizzard.  Otherwise, ignore the rest of the world and release it when its done, not before.

[TripleDES]

It an unordered list. 

What were we talking about again, exactly?

Or maybe, since there apparently seems to be a lot of developer cross-section, they picked up the old code and are working on THAT! 

[WindupAtheist]

Joking aside, we'll what we see.  I got all excited for SWG back in the day as well, but I had smelled the stink and wandered away even before beta.  I don't need a WoW killer, just something fun and Star Warsy and playable to waste time with.

[DraconianOne]

Joking aside, we'll what we see.  I got all excited for SWG back in the day as well, but I had smelled the stink and wandered away even before beta.  I don't need a WoW killer, just something fun and Star Warsy and playable to waste time with.

You know this might suprise you as much as it surprises me but I'm in total agreement with everything you said.



Apart from that first sentence because I don't actually know what it means.

[Venkman]

Timing is overrated compared to most other factors, especially quality/fun/polish.  Look how much timing did for the NGE

My response was specifically to Lakov's question about the relevance of Star Wars these days. Right now there's a lull. But by the time KOTOR MMO launches, well, you read it above

It does not supplant quality/fun of course. But timing is often used to initiate a project at all, because it's part of business projections. Just launching a good game is enough for smalle companies. But you need more than that to unlock the funds at bigger companies. Timing helps that. As does the right team with the right management with the right IP with the right game system with the right... there is no single factor that completely replaces all others. This industry wouldn't be as big as it is if it just relied on "fun".

[Count Nerfedalot]

Timing is overrated compared to most other factors, especially quality/fun/polish.  Look how much timing did for the NGE

My response was specifically to Lakov's question about the relevance of Star Wars these days. Right now there's a lull. But by the time KOTOR MMO launches, well, you read it above

It does not supplant quality/fun of course. But timing is often used to initiate a project at all, because it's part of business projections. Just launching a good game is enough for smalle companies. But you need more than that to unlock the funds at bigger companies. Timing helps that. As does the right team with the right management with the right IP with the right game system with the right... there is no single factor that completely replaces all others. This industry wouldn't be as big as it is if it just relied on "fun".

Now that there is competition in the market, first impressions for MMOGs really are the key.  So much so that I think the idea of tying the release of a subscription-based game to an immovable single-point-in-time event like a movie release or Halloween or whatnot is downright stupid. And given the current sorry state of project management in the game industry, doing so is pretty much a guarantee of yet another epic fail (witness EQ2, TR, HG:L, even AoC, etc, etc). Look how fast an unready game tanks, thus losing those subscriptions, losing the momentum. losing the buzz, losing the good will of the most eager fans, and losing any chance of making a good first impression.

Take EQ2.  Most pundits claim it did poorly on release due to coming out at the same time as WoW.  This is only a fraction of the truth.  It did so poorly, especially in comparison to WoW, because it was seriously lacking in quality, fun and polish, ESPECIALLY in comparison to WoW.  If WoW hadn't come out till later, EQ2 probably would have done about 50-100% better at launch.  But it STILL would have been an underachiever, and STILL would have suffered horrible losses whenever WoW did come out.  There is also a good chance that it would have completely lost its ability to make the comeback it did.  I suspect that far fewer people would have been willing to go back and give EQ2 a second chance once they'd gotten their act together and fixed things up if they'd already wasted the time, money, and emotional energy on getting suckered in and disappointed at launch, than were willing to do so after skipping the whole EQ2 launch scene for WoW, playing that till they tired of it, then wandering off and giving EQ2 a much later chance to make a good first impression.

But beside all that, my original point was that the difference between the best and the worst timing in the world won't have nearly as much impact on the success of a release as the difference between the degree or lack of quality, fun or polish.  The suits, marketing dweebs, and bean counters are constantly ignoring that fact.  But it still remains a fact, and they ignore it to their own financial loss.  Sure, good timing will help, but not nearly as much as rushing something out the door before it's ready will hurt.


(quickie edit for clarity since I Hit the Post instead of Preview button)

[UnSub]

The suits, marketing dweebs, and bean counters are constantly ignoring that fact. 

In defence of the suits and bean counters, they've given the devs $20m+ to get the game done and the devs said it could be done for that amount of money. At some point, the money runs out. (Vanguard)

In defence of the marketing dweebs, they rely on the devs to tell them when they can start talking about the game and bringing it to people's attention. If there are huge delays, it is hardly marketing's fault. (Auto Assault)

It isn't always the poor defenceless devs being forced to dance to someone else's tune. They are complicit in what happens with their game. There are lots of reasons for being complicit, but if you say "Yes" to a request you know is unreasonable, you are still at fault when things end up going badly. (SWG)

The biggest problem is (and ironically appears to have happened here with KOTORO) is that games are being talked about way too early in their development cycle. Until a MMO is very close to its feature and content targets and being beta'd, things like release date and in-game systems probably shouldn't be discussed outside of the devs. It's no fun for us - we'd love to know what Lum is working on, for instance - but it makes more sense than the constant missed release dates / announced system changes / launch that doesn't include promised systems etc that dog the industry.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Look how 'done' Diablo three was from the moment we heard about it. No one even knew there would BE a diablo three and what it seems we got was a game well into it's alpha now THAT is how it's supposed to be done.

[SnakeCharmer]

Look how 'done' Diablo three was from the moment we heard about it. No one even knew there would BE a diablo three and what it seems we got was a game well into it's alpha now THAT is how it's supposed to be done.

Sure.  It's easy to do that when the company that's developing said game is rolling in so much cash they issue hundred dollar bills for employees to wipe their ass with.

There's not another developer out there that can do that.  Not SOE, not BioWare/EA.  It's especially more difficult if you're relying on outside funding.  Those nice VC's that are going to give you millions of dollars to develop your game are going to want more than a presentation on why YOUR game is uber and will rule them all.  They want website hit numbers, message boards, etc to show there is interest in it, and that it's a wise investment.

[Ghambit]

Look how 'done' Diablo three was from the moment we heard about it. No one even knew there would BE a diablo three and what it seems we got was a game well into it's alpha now THAT is how it's supposed to be done.

Last I heard the "mystery game" was playable a LOONG time ago.  I remember an interview with Bono where he said he'd played the game and loved it.  Now, we're assuming here that the mystery game was indeed KOTORO... but I think it's a pretty safe assumption.  Now, I must run off and find the article where they said it was playable. (it might be as long as a year ago)

edit: it might not have been Bono but someone else from his group... (still no luck finding the article)

[schild]

According to gamasutra, they were hiring a lead combat designer very recently. Also the we need a cluebat emote to use on people who say bioware without austin attached to the end. Its a distinction worth making. Everyone here should know its an entirely different studio and I really shouldn't have to be the one to say it evertime a thread pops up. Bioware Austin has a Lot to prove, so does Bioware but for different reasons.

[SnakeCharmer]

@Ghambit:  I remember the article.  It was Gordon Walton, Rich Vogel, and some other guy if I remember right.  It was one of the last interviews they gave about the game.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth, I've been of the opinion that whatever BWA (how's that?) is working on since 2005 (I think?) is not the Star Wars IP MMO.  Would seem to me that the gamasutra job posting (it was posted on Ubiq's website in a round about way as well - they were looking for two combat designers, actually) is for the BWA/LA partnership.  Whatever the game is that BWA / LA formed a partnership in Oct 2007 may very well be KOTOR Online; whether it's cross platform SPRPG with a heavy co-op component or whatever.

Keep in mind, they are still and always have been listed as seperate entities on the BW's website.  I find it hard to believe that an erroneous In Development listing would go by near a year without someone fixing it.

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, but you basically don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Last I heard you were blabbing about how you didn't think there would be a KOTOR MMO at all, because of that exact same website entry, with Schild all but hitting you over the head going "WINK WINK I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DO NOT" the whole time.

[ahoythematey]

MMO fans and Star Wars fans are both very used to having wet dumps dropped into their mouths, but for some odd reason I don't think the potential playerbase for a KotoR MMO is going to be so accepting of the two combined.  Maybe they aren't into Ménage à trois...

If this is all true I can't wait for the show to begin.  It's been awhile since we've had a three-ring circus in town.

[Venkman]

If it's KOTOR, then most of the raging fanboi crap doesn't apply. The most reverant psychotics only come out when it has to do with the timeline between Ep 4 and 6, whether canon or expanded universe. Nothing else has been discussed nor even defined to that degree, either because the EU stuff hasn't expanded it or because nobody cares.

Now that there is competition in the market, first impressions for MMOGs really are the key.

"Now"? There's been real competition for quite some time. This genre has never been an easy one in which to launch a new title. Most players don't consume MMOs the same way they do any other genre because of the style of game (which drives the subscription fee, not because of it). They're huge timesinks. I'd wager a very VERY small minority play multiple MMOs concurrently, unless the other # are free ones. MMOs are contraseasonal by nature, ensuring there's rarely a good or bad time to launch them. The only new variable really is that since four years ago, you don't want to launch concurrent to anything Blizzard is doing.

NOW add IP to the mix. IP holders don't traditionally throw stuff out there when they feel like it. Why should they? If they've got an brand/license/theme with a high awareness, they're going to milk that for all its worth, doing the same things that made drove up that awareness in the first place. That requires forethought, mostly lining up with other events like advertising, PR stunts, convention support, TV spots in primetime series (with network support), retail promo strategies, etc. Just getting a random game box on a store shelf is comparatively easy. But that's not going to move those boxes to consumers to nearly the same degree. You need to first get those consumers aware, and then compelled to purchase. That's true of any game you hope to sell many units of. Just putting money into "making a good game" isn't going to game that game sold in the sort of numbers you need to have gotten the amount of money you needed to "make it good".

Having a strong license makes this activity both easier and harder. Easier because, yes, the name itself can (and does) sell units. Harder because the reasons the name sells itself is because of the marketing allowed to be spent by the bean counters, who by the way also permitted the developers to put more money into the game. Yes, licenses take more royalty off the top. But they also can compel more spending in the first place.

None of this replaces the need for fun, quality and all the usual stuff. And many feel the SW brand has suffered for the string of not-so-great video games that have come out in the last decade. But we're still expecting that from this genre anyway, marketing aside.

On your examples, all except Hellgate are not a good comparison to KOTOR nor this discussion for different reasons:

EQ2: Not a strong IP outside of EQ players. And the game did not appeal to contemporary nor former EQ players. They originally set out to make an EQ for everyone else, but then they invited their most hardcore players to help them design it (the $39.99/mo folks).
TR: What exactly was this trying to line up to? It was an RG game, that's it.
AoC: What exactly was this trying to line up to? It's a new MMO with an IP most people are only aware of by having passed by two Swarzenegger movies.

HG:L makes sense though because it's marketing campaign and timing didn't gel with the longevitity of play that game needed. It was a good out-of-box experience, but not after the third or so week.

[eldaec]

If it's KOTOR, then most of the raging fanboi crap doesn't apply. The most reverant psychotics only come out when it has to do with the timeline between Ep 4 and 6, whether canon or expanded universe. Nothing else has been discussed nor even defined to that degree, either because the EU stuff hasn't expanded it or because nobody cares.

I'd say the EU psychotics are more bothered about the timeline in the prehistory of the emo-sith and the post empire world of Solo babies and Luke's geriatric adventures. /shrug

Anyway, in any time period, paying attention to the EU causes much bigger problems than ignoring it, because the EU is such utter shite that there is no earthly way that anyone could salvage anything of value from it. Happily EU fanatics can be left to rot, because there aren't enough of them for anyone to care.

[SnakeCharmer]

Yeah, but you basically don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Last I heard you were blabbing about how you didn't think there would be a KOTOR MMO at all, because of that exact same website entry, with Schild all but hitting you over the head going "WINK WINK I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DO NOT" the whole time.

Here's the thing...

Do you REALLY believe that the announcement to the world what their MMO is about is based on is going to be to a third rate stock website; to some unknown reporter?  Because we all know reporters (game journalists or otherwise) have never made up or embellished a news story.

It may very well be the worst kept secret in the world.  Hell, let's just say it's the next Star Wars MMO, nevermind the backdrop.  I'm just not going to go fullout fanboy until BWA/LA announces it. 

[Sir T]

One factor as well is that Lucas always (queitly) said that that its not the Movie tickets that make your money, its the toys and other crap that are sold outside of the movies. All the licensed crap, basically. Thats what more or less happened with the first 3 films. The thing is that for the last 3 movies he was banking on rolling in the cash with the licensed crap, and it was exactly the opposite. The movies brought in the crowds but the actual toys etc did not sell very much. People went to see the films becasue it was "star wars." but did not care enough to buy a Jar Jar Binks mug. (Personally I saw the first one and decided I wasn't going to bother with the other 2. Only seen bits of them to this day)

I think people are seriously misrepresenting the power of the star wars IP at this stage. Star wars worked because it captured something and expanded peoples imaginations. There are people working in industries that would not exist but for star wars, or at least would not be as big. The power of the IP now has been diluted by time. That and the last 3 films were pretty awful means that you simply cannot sell a game on star wars NOW unless its independently good.

In short if noone wants to buy an Anakin Skywalker mug to take urine samples in, why are they going to bother forking out a monthly subscription? (Especially if the experiance is like living in a urine sample...)

[eldaec]

you simply cannot sell a game on star wars NOW unless its independently good.

I'm confused, are you suggesting that SWG, and all the endless SW console crap is/was independently good? Because they do/did sell.

[Ratman_tf]

Sure.  It's easy to do that when the company that's developing said game is rolling in so much cash they issue hundred dollar bills for employees to wipe their ass with.

There's not another developer out there that can do that.  Not SOE, not BioWare/EA.  It's especially more difficult if you're relying on outside funding.  Those nice VC's that are going to give you millions of dollars to develop your game are going to want more than a presentation on why YOUR game is uber and will rule them all.  They want website hit numbers, message boards, etc to show there is interest in it, and that it's a wise investment.

Some might think Blizzard sprung up out of the ground successful.

[WindupAtheist]

Here's the thing...

Do you REALLY believe that the announcement to the world what their MMO is about is based on is going to be to a third rate stock website; to some unknown reporter?  Because we all know reporters (game journalists or otherwise) have never made up or embellished a news story.

It may very well be the worst kept secret in the world.  Hell, let's just say it's the next Star Wars MMO, nevermind the backdrop.  I'm just not going to go fullout fanboy until BWA/LA announces it.

WINK WINK I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DO NOT.  And I've heard it now from two completely independant "in-the-know" sources.

This really is the worst-kept secret in the industry.  It's KOTORO.

[TripleDES]

Regarding the Star Wars IP, I think they've dropped the ball all in all. The time SWG was released, you know, when the movies were showing, that was the right time. In 2010? Fuck that.

[AngryGumball]

wow some people in here are worse than wow gen discussion people

[Sir T]

you simply cannot sell a game on star wars NOW unless its independently good.

I'm confused, are you suggesting that SWG, and all the endless SW console crap is/was independently good? Because they do/did sell.

I know a whole bunch that agree that previous to CU SWG was one of the best games ever. Dont knock it for the failure it became.

And I know jack about the console SW games and care less.

[Lantyssa]

I know a whole bunch that agree that previous to CU SWG was one of the best games ever. Dont knock it for the failure it became.

hi

Oh, wait.  Sorry.  DIKU rules!  Woooooooh!  Gimmie that repetative level grinding soul crushing crap forevermore!  YEAH BABY.

[Sir T]

It sells doesn't it? 

[UnSub]

I know a whole bunch that agree that previous to CU SWG was one of the best games ever. Dont knock it for the failure it became.

SWG was a failure before CU+NGE too. It just became a different kind of failure after those points.

I wonder how SOE feels about KOTORO?

[Evildrider]

Regarding the Star Wars IP, I think they've dropped the ball all in all. The time SWG was released, you know, when the movies were showing, that was the right time. In 2010? Fuck that.

Except for the new Clone Wars movie coming out in August and the new SW TV show coming right?

[rk47]

I know a whole bunch that agree that previous to CU SWG was one of the best games ever. Dont knock it for the failure it became.

hi

Oh, wait.  Sorry.  DIKU rules!  Woooooooh!  Gimmie that repetative level grinding soul crushing crap forevermore!  YEAH BABY.

Ever played Lineage 2? Like grinding, don't wanna pay to play? Definitely give it a spin already.

Are you fucking insane?