The Dark Knight

[Fabricated]

Finally saw it tonight. Two Face is kinda lame even though I unconsciously said "Don't put it in your pocket, it's your lucky quarter" outloud when he interrogated the crazy perp and got a few laughs instead of getting cell phones hurled against my head like I deserved.

The Joker is fucking amazing. That's about all I have to say about that. I was genuinely depressed when I realized we'll NEVER see that character again.

[rk47]

...batman's voice is awful. 

[HaemishM]

I don't think the point was how much Harvey went evil ... Just that he did. He was the White Knight, and he fell from grace. It was bad news, and if gotten out, would have completely destroyed Gotham's morale. Or something.

Gotham's morale was a big part of the success Batman had achieved. In the first movie, Gotham is the absolute shittiest of the shit. City government is absolutely corrupted at every level, and even the police are not to be trusted. Gordon was the one honest cop. Since Batman started his crusade, Gothamites had started to hope, the city had started to turn around and as a result people felt safer testifying against mob bosses like Meroni. Before Batman, Meroni would never have gone to trial. Batman made Dent's successes possible. Had Dent been shown to be corruptible, all those gains would have been for naught.

Now, with Batman a killer and an outlaw, not only is his work easier (because the mob guys fear him again), but the Gothamites now have regular heroes to look up to (the cops like Jim Gordon).

[NowhereMan]

On the "fascist dictator" vibe that was debated somewhat earlier in the thread, I think Dent's failure and Batman's fall have left Gotham in a situation where there simply aren't any heroes to drag them out of the mire. Instead in hunting down Batman and/or avenging Dent the people of Gotham have got to stamp out crime and corruption, hopefully with a new cleaner police force under the direction of Gordon. For all the talk in the film of a dictator that suspends democracy, Dent's fall shows that noone can really take that role, anyone can go bad. I'll admit Batman doesn't really get 'corrupted' but he's the frickin' hero, it wouldn't make for much of a film if say he'd decided to use his mobile phone trick to establish total surveillance of everyone, everywhere and became de facto dictator of Gotham.

[HaemishM]

Actually, Batman DID get corrupted, what with the whole surveillance on everyone in Gotham thing. Granted, he knew enough not to give himself total control over it, but that's a pretty big thing, even for him. That's a monumental betrayal of trust on the part of the city's protector. He did it because he thought he had to go just as extreme as the Joker to beat the Joker, and turned into a villain of his own because in the end, while he "got" the Joker, he didn't defeat the Joker.

[stray]

Back to the dog thing: I forgot about that scene, after the Joker busts out of jail, where he's in the back seat of a cop car, sticking his head out the window. That had to be intended to go with the dog comparisons, I think.

Anyhow, after watching it again, I think it's really great how the dude basically has no origin story. Couple that with the realistic way in how Heath portrayed him, it just begs me to wonder how the Joker got that way. He's got all of his bullshit stories about how he got the scars, but you know his past is something so fucking bad, even he can't be honest about it. The whole take just leaves a lot to the imagination.

There's also this sort of undercurrent of nervousness about the guy -- right from the beginning, like when he first entered the mobster meeting. He's a seriously fucked up dude, no doubt, but someone who isn't exactly a competent criminal -- just a ballsy guy with nothing to lose and nothing to care for. He straps himself with dynamite to just keep himself safe. He has no other kind of leverage. Like he's out of his element, but too bold and careless to give a fuck. There's also that scene when he first goes after Dent at the fundraiser, and Batman breaks it all up -- fight scene ensues. Joker's all tripping around, trying to slash at him and shit. It's funny. I mean, he totally sucks, as far as fighting skill goes. He's just flailing around (yet still putting Batman on his guard). He's an otherwise normal dude, if it wasn't for whatever trauma that pushed him over the edge.

To top it off, he's so alone and caught up in this freakish side of himself, that he kind of reaches out to Batman in a way -- he admits to needing Batman. Even moreso, that scene where he visits Harvey in the hospital -- it's almost touching. Like he's trying to make another freak friend -- and he did it by fucking up Harvey's life.

I don't think I'm reading too much into it. Just that a second viewing is more illuminating.

[rk47]

his handwaving magic aside, his mindfucking terrorist act is quite a mindfuck. I mean, if someone made demand like that on TV: Kill this guy or a building blows up. I'm quite sure SOMEONE will act upon it..

[eldaec]

Actually, Batman DID get corrupted

I felt Batman remains ambiguous until his moment of clarity at the very end. If Batman definitively was or wasn't corrupted, the film doens't work so well imo.

I took the point to be that Batman/Bruce lacks a way to judge his own actions, the Joker takes it away from him partly by forcing him into positions others will disapprove of, and partly by giving him the classical moral dilemmas with no 'right' answer. The interesting thing isn't that Batman definitively was or was not corrupted, just that he is put in a position where he doesn't know.

Because we and Bruce see Harvey's actions from the outside, the point where he is corrupted is clear to us, and eventually Batman works out he can use that example to see where the line is, and uses Harvey's example to defeat Joker by taking blame for Harvey's actions.

[stray]

I think he knew he was fucking up right from the start. Before he uses the surveillance thing at the end, there's a scene far before it, when Lucius inquires about something or other with the R&D department. Bruce doesn't want to tell him any details, saying "he's playing this one close to the chest".

He had already been setting it up before he even had a big showdown with the Joker, right after Lucius demonstrated just the one cell phone trick to map that one building.

[rk47]

I think Batman simply lost the 'one step ahead' game and had to resort to 'cheating' as in creating that surveillance network when he realize if he loses again, there may be more at stake than just Rachel or another Harvey Dent.


I

[Venkman]

I thought the surveillance thing was brilliant. The monitors themselves felt more like a prop for the movie than something that would actually be needed in this sort of tool. The entire system was designed only to track down the Joker by homing in on his voice and locating him. For something like that you need exactly one monitor. Hell you could do that on a cellphone. But for the movie, that wouldn't have been as impressive looking.

So I look at the machine as a tool turned into hyperbole only, not as an indication of a descent into fascism. Wayne was playing it close to the chest because he knew that no matter how it was embodied, Lucius wouldn't go for it (which foreshadowed exactly what happened).

Batman failed to stay ahead because he categorized Joker through what he learned from the first film about "criminals". Here again it took Alfred to enlighten Bruce on why the Joker was a different type of enemy (and which even scripted as "this town deserves a better class of criminal"). Batman's analysis and process for take down were wrong. He witnessed the very escalation Gordon warned him about in the last film. But he didn't realize that this particular escalation skewed to anarchy rather than along the predictable path of bigger guns, more armor, that sort of thing.

I do agree that he "lost it", though I feel it was more when he realized he couldn't separate what was the right thing to do from saving Rachel.

[stray]

"this town deserves a better class of criminal"

Awesome line. With or without the context. It's like the guy had his own brand of justice.

The whole scene between him and Harvey was equally cool. <Puts a gun in Harvey's hand>: "Introduce a little anarchy."

[HaemishM]

Anyhow, after watching it again, I think it's really great how the dude basically has no origin story. Couple that with the realistic way in how Heath portrayed him, it just begs me to wonder how the Joker got that way. He's got all of his bullshit stories about how he got the scars, but you know his past is something so fucking bad, even he can't be honest about it. The whole take just leaves a lot to the imagination.

Well, you know in the comics, his origin has had elements of both of those stories he told, but Killing Joke is the closest thing to an origin the Joker really has, and even that's a suspect origin. I think not trying to tell an explicit origin story for this villain is another of the genius that Nolan has brought to the franchise. While it would be an interesting story to write, and probably to watch, the previous Batman franchise relied too much on the villain's origin being the entire movie. And since Batman likely wasn't involved in the origin in anyway (or according to the comics, a really incidental way), telling it the movie would have just wasted valuable time.

The changing stories helped to magnify the Joker's craziness. His view of reality is so skewed, could anyone really trust that his own perceptions and memories aren't completely fucked anyway? God, it's just such a shame Ledger died. I would have loved just a five minute scene in the next movie with the Joker locked in Arkham being interviewed by a shrink. That would have been 5 kinds of awesome.

[stray]

Heh. I think Nolan did give him a sort of "origin story" in a way, I guess. Right at the beginning of the movie:

"Whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stranger"

Anyhow, I'd like to think of the guy being fairly/otherwise normal, as I said above. Nothing particularly outlandish happened to him -- just some down to earth/more realistic type of trauma -- in a relentless way -- until he finally lashed back. And that HE cracked up made him think anyone else in Gotham could crack up as well -- that is his "mission", so to speak. To spawn other freaks. Probably because he's so fucking lonely.

[K9]

Awesome film, best two and a half hours I have spent in the cinema in a long time.

Loved Heath, sad that they killed off two-face, liked that the story was not just focused on a single person, but on the relationships between people.

I'm also positive that the people on the boats were given their own detonators.

[Polysorbate80]

Mixed feelings on this portrayal of the Joker.  It finally had the amoral murderous psycho bit right, but mostly didn't have the flair the character should have along with it.  Except "Nurse Joker" at the hospital, that bit was right on.

If I'd had to guess, I'd say he did the scars to himself.  As part of transforming a previous utter nobody into his twisted self-vision.

Regarding the surveillance system, it seems totally in character to me.  Bats always stashes away contingency plans on the off-chance he might need them someday (such as a bit of kryptonite for Superman).  He doesn't want to use them, but he will if he has to (and in this case, he gave control to Fox to remove temptation)  It's the kind of thing I'd expect him to pull out of his bag of tricks, but it had to be introduced and explained in the context of the movie so when Batty needed a way to "burn down the forest" to leave his prey nowhere to hide, it wouldn't seem like such a copout.

[stu]

I've made plans to see this movie three times and something new derails my plans each times. I even barely missed seeing it in IMAX! Is the ghost of Bob Kane punishing me?



Or, maybe this is just an excuse to use the new Awesome Smiley I found.

[Brogarn]

I'm also positive that the people on the boats were given their own detonators.

I'm of the opinion that the detonators were exactly as advertised. Because if criminals blow themselves up thinking it was the other boat, people would be like "Ya... sounds about right". But if innocent civilians blow up a boat load of criminals and commit mass murder, then we have something to talk about. Which is part of what the Joker wanted. Proving that people are only self interested and would gladly murder others for the sake of self.

[Samwise]

I was banking on the innocent civilians blowing themselves up in an attempt to off the scary criminals.  That would also give us something to talk about.

[Brogarn]

If they did that, there's noone around to prove the detonator didn't accidently go off or that the Joker himself didn't push the button. The only way to truly prove his point is a boat load of "innocent" civilians commiting mass murder.

[WindupAtheist]

Just thought I'd chime in and mention that this movie is a lock for second highest domestic gross of all time.  It's already at #4 with $394 million, less than $50 million away from dethroning Shrek 2 for the #2 spot.  It won't threaten Titanic and it's $600 million gross unless it has serious, serious legs that this sort of movie pretty much never does, but it'll come closer than anything else has.

[NowhereMan]

If they did that, there's noone around to prove the detonator didn't accidently go off or that the Joker himself didn't push the button. The only way to truly prove his point is a boat load of "innocent" civilians commiting mass murder.

You've got all the prison guards, they'd be as reliable as any of the civilians especially since if one of the criminals had grabbed it they'd have little reason not to tell everyone. I genuinely did expect the guy on the civilian boat to get up and hit the detonator, then see their boat exploding from the prison one.

[Big Gulp]

Just thought I'd chime in and mention that this movie is a lock for second highest domestic gross of all time.  It's already at #4 with $394 million, less than $50 million away from dethroning Shrek 2 for the #2 spot.  It won't threaten Titanic and it's $600 million gross unless it has serious, serious legs that this sort of movie pretty much never does, but it'll come closer than anything else has.

I don't think anything will ever dethrone Gone With the Wind if you adjust for inflation.  I might be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't GWTW #1 for damned near a year when it came out?

[Teleku]

I knew neither boat was going to blow up because there is no way Batman is going to 'lose' and have hundreds of civilians die in his movie.  

Having said that, I'm sure the detonators were set to blow up the other ships, like he said.  After all, he is a man of his word.

[Polysorbate80]

After, he is a man of his word.

Othat than, y'know, the deliberate lies and complete dishonesty throughout the flick.

[HaemishM]

After, he is a man of his word.

Othat than, y'know, the deliberate lies and complete dishonesty throughout the flick.

Over two weeks after the movie comes out and we're still able to debate points like whether the detonators were setup with the old switcheroo, and different interpretations of characters' actions. And not only are we still able to debate them, the debate hasn't diminished the movie at all. That, gentlemen, is fucking art.

[Pennilenko]

After, he is a man of his word.

Othat than, y'know, the deliberate lies and complete dishonesty throughout the flick.

Over two weeks after the movie comes out and we're still able to debate points like whether the detonators were setup with the old switcheroo, and different interpretations of characters' actions. And not only are we still able to debate them, the debate hasn't diminished the movie at all. That, gentlemen, is fucking art.

Dont forget, we also have a new awesome giant smiley now too!

[stray]

After, he is a man of his word.

Othat than, y'know, the deliberate lies and complete dishonesty throughout the flick.

Over two weeks after the movie comes out and we're still able to debate points like whether the detonators were setup with the old switcheroo, and different interpretations of characters' actions. And not only are we still able to debate them, the debate hasn't diminished the movie at all. That, gentlemen, is fucking art.

It really is quite the nuanced work of art. I'm still firmly in the "Iron Man is better" camp though. Given the choice between a day at the gallery and a roller coaster ride, I choose the latter every time. Call me lowbrow. 

There's a line from High Fidelity I always liked:

Hey, I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I'm certainly not the dumbest. I mean, I've read books like "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" and "Love in the Time of Cholera", and I think I've understood them.

They're about girls, right?

Just kidding. But I have to say my all-time favorite book is Johnny Cash's autobiography "Cash" by Johnny Cash.

[Polysorbate80]

My 2 cents on the detonators?  They're both set to blow up the prisoner ferry.

[Samwise]

Testing: 

Why so serious?

[HaemishM]

Testing: 

Why so serious?

Win.

[Murgos]

You're all focusing on the prisoners being the ones to pull the trigger.

The prisoners never would realistically get their hands on it.

The dilemma was more along the lines of were the innocents really just self-interested sociopaths who had never gotten the opportunity to act out because they're all sheeple or were the 'protectors of the innocent' really just the self-interested sadists everyone really thinks they are.

[Polysorbate80]

No, I'm saying it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger.  Any way you slice it, the prisoners are going to go, because you don't want a rash of nobility ruining a perfectly good object lesson.

If the prisoners blow the "good" boat, nobody's shocked. Sure, it's a tragedy, but it's what they expected to happen.  So why would the Joker even allow it?

Either A) the goodies blow up the prisoners (total win for the Joker), B) the prisoners blow up themselves (partial win, because people are always going to believe the folks on the good boat really did it), or C) the Joker offs the prisoners himself (see B).  Added win of offing a lot of mid-level mob management, leaving Joker a better position to take over their minions.

It also fits with the Joker's modus operandi of everything being a mindfuck; nothing he says or does can be taken at face value (his relationship with the cops and batman hasn't come along far enough for him to screw them up by actually telling the truth, because it takes the whole bloody movie for even Batman to realize the Joker's always pulling a fast one.)

[Murgos]

But the prisoners didn't have the trigger.

Cops killing innocents to save their own hide is a far more powerful 'object lesson'.

[Brogarn]

But the prisoners didn't have the trigger.

Cops killing innocents to save their own hide is a far more powerful 'object lesson'.

Excellent point that has changed my mind slightly. If the cops blew up the innocent civilians to save their own hide, Joker still makes his point. I'm still firmly convinced that they had each others detonators. The guilty party needed to live to prove the point. Otherwise there's questions of who actually pulled the trigger if the trigger puller is blown up with everyone else.