The Dark Knight

[HaemishM]

Never let it be said Warner Bros. can't find a way to fuck up a perfectly good thing.

[UnSub]

The problem is (as always) that the reasons for a film's success is often boiled down to its simplest components. "The Dark Knight" (and "The Empire Strikes Back" for that matter) were successful because they were dark films... or because they had a scope to them that a number of other films lack. But I'm sure it was just the darkness in them.

[Lantyssa]

I imagine even Iron Man might tap into Stark's dark side as well. Which is OK, because Downey Jr. can still make that fun too.

I don't mind them touching on Stark's dark side, but they need to show him rising above it when he is doing the heroics.  (Really applies to any hero.)  Flaws are okay, but there's a line between brooding vigilante and superhero.

And no, Peter Parker from Spidey 3 does not qualify.  That was showing his dork side.  The theater shouldn't be rolling with laughter at such scenes.

[stray]

I don't think it's possible to ever portray Stark a brooding vigilante, even if they tried. There's just that side of him that's more of a drunk, controlling, megalomaniac.

[Lantyssa]

Whatever angle they use, they need to show the bad behavior leading to bad consequences, and rising above it saves the day.  At least for a superhero flick.

It mostly worked for the Dark Knight, but even there it fell a little flat.

[Triforcer]

They need to make a movie based on All-Star Batman.  Maybe as a tax write-off....

I AM THE GODDAMN BATMAN. 

[stu]

I loved how they never showed batgirls face. Course her hair and mom's hair are a bit off....

wat

Man, I totally missed her in the flick. I'm guessing they were setting up Oracle now that Lucius Fox is out of the game.

[Mazakiel]

Seeing as how Gordon's daughter is, from what little we see of her, a young kid in the movie, I doubt we'll see Batgirl or Oracle any time soon unless they decide to either make it someone completely unattached to Gordon, or his niece or something. 

Also, the movie ends on a note of Lucius not going away, so I doubt we'll be seeing the last of him at all. 

[stu]

I guess I could start a thread about this in the new Movies Board, but the flick doesn't even have a title yet. Here's the latest rumor surrounding the next installment to the Batman franchise.

Casting rumor from MTV.com

[Velorath]

I guess I could start a thread about this in the new Movies Board, but the flick doesn't even have a title yet. Here's the latest rumor surrounding the next installment to the Batman franchise.

Casting rumor from MTV.com

It's not the latest rumor, so much as the same old rumor recycled and coming from Michael Caine this time.

[stray]

That pesky Michael Caine..

[schild]

Johnny Depp as the Riddler is one way to make up for not having Ledger around. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand they'll be out of good actors after the new one.

[Velorath]

I suppose at least it's a better rumor than the Will Smith as Captain America rumor that just started going around.

[Ironwood]

Not by much. 

Don't get me wrong, I like me some Depp.  Boy has talent.

Just not that bothered by Riddler.

(yeah, yeah, I know, Scarecrow and all that.)

[Polysorbate80]

I think Penguin has always been an incredibly stupid villain myself.  But what else are they gonna do?  Catwoman?

[Yegolev]

JUDO CAPS FIX!

[Lantyssa]

Not by much. 

Don't get me wrong, I like me some Depp.  Boy has talent.

Most people thought Ledger as the Joker was going to be terrible...

[Ironwood]

I didn't.

Anyway, Re-Read please.  I'm not getting at Depp.  I'm getting at Riddler.  I don't like the villian.  I've always thought he was lame.

You may want to bring up 'Scarecrow was even lamer until Begins' and I'd agree with you.  Hell, I did agree with you.  Right up there.

Sorry, I don't like the Riddler.

But the team that does this Batman, Coupled with Depp, will probably make him awesome.

I hope it's all clear now.

(Actually, the more I think on it, the more I think that Riddler could be an awful good villian, given the 'realistic' way that Batman is being done at the moment.  Having some nutjob leaving bombs and Riddles actually works better in a realistic setting.)

[Evildrider]

I'd actually like to see Clayface, Deadshot, or Bane.  Clayface cuz he would be a great in a special effects sort of way, but he wouldn't really fit in with the look of the movies.  Deadshot and Bane would be great as hired thugs brought into take the Bat down.

I'm sure it'll be Catwoman tho... as long as they don't get Halle Berry to play her.

Penguin sucks, Riddler won't hold a candle to Joker, and Mr. Freeze is meh as well.

There aren't really a whole lot of great Batman villains.

[HaemishM]

Riddler is an AWESOME Batman villain, it's just that most people don't have clue one how to write him. Hell, lately they turned him into a detective who doesn't do crimes anymore in the comics. Writing riddles for crimes is hard, so people either turn him into a Joker-lite lunatic (Batman Forever) or an effete twit. He can be done quite well, and I'm sure the Nolan team is the people to do it right. Penguin is a bit tricker, but I think Hoffman as Penguin would be a great choice. Again, the Nolan team has wildly exceeded my expectations, so I'd go with them even if they picked Mad Hatter.

[Evildrider]

so I'd go with them even if they picked Mad Hatter.

What if they chose King Tut?   

[stray]

Riddler's OK, but my opinion (as I've said before in this thread) is that he doesn't click with Nolan's theme (fear). Putting him in would just be fanboy pandering (the death knell for comic movies imo), doing shit just for the sake of it, without regard to overall storyline. If diehard fans just took a step back from fantasizing about the overall world, they'd see that there's a specific story that's supposed to be told here.

The reason why Scarecrow didn't suck is because he fit in with the kind of story Nolan wanted to tell. He didn't work necessarily because "Nolan knows how to do Batman villains right". He knows how to do the themes right. Slight difference. And the minute he departs from that theme, it'll stop being fun. I don't care if he resurrected Laurence Olivier to play the Riddler. It's "not part of the plan", y'see? 

[HaemishM]

The idea that I might get capped by some jackass who commits crimes based around riddles should be terrifying. Hell, think Jack the Ripper only with money instead of dead hookers. There are plenty of ways to do the Riddler where fear is a significant factor. Besides, I don't think the themes have so much been fear as it has been how to deal with those who use fear to terrorize. Do you give in to the corruption like the police have and just get your cut? Do you fight back using the system as Gordon has? Do you turn into the ultimate fascist like Batman?

I'm confident Nolan could find a way to make Riddler fit that theme perfectly.

[stray]

Well, I should add that while Riddler, on the superficial level, is similar to Joker (I mean.. uh.. both have similar names, both like the color "green", both have a similar sort of demeanor - both prance around like Alex in Clockwork Orange), the important difference is that they cater to different kinds of storytelling. Joker stories are all about Batman trying to stop chaos and panic, while Riddler stories are very detective heavy.. Totally different ball game. The entire mood of the series would change with the Riddler in them. And he's totally INDIRECT in how he fucks things up too (his name is the Riddler, after all). Unlike Joker or Scarecrow.

[HaemishM]

The Joker was all about the chaos that ensued as Gotham evolved beyond its corrupt stage and into a more orderly stage. The Riddler would be the ultimate expression of that order turned in on itself. Whereas the Joker was the diametric opposite of the order Batman was trying to impose, the Riddler would be rigidly slaved to use that order to further his own ends. The perception of the Riddler as Joker clone is Jim Carrey's fault (and to a lesser extent Frank Gorshin).

[stray]

Hey, I know the Riddler's cool (I said he was OK)... I guess my point is that he forces Batman to sit around deciphering cryptograms and shit. That just doesn't work here. Nolan's Batman series has gone in a completely different cinematic direction at this point.

[edit] And on that note, the whole fucking franchise is cashed. Forget the Riddler, there aren't any other villains that would work on the same level again. None. It would have been cool to get a part 3 with Heath again - y'know, like the old Superman movies kept on having Lex - because that shit would keep on working - but that isn't gonna happen, obviously. So they should just end it here. How about instead of squeezing a franchise for all it's worth (X-Men, Spider-Man), you just spend that money on the gazillion other good comic characters DC has?

[MrHat]

Hey, I know the Riddler's cool (I said he was OK)... I guess my point is that he forces Batman to sit around deciphering cryptograms and shit. That just doesn't work here. Nolan's Batman series has gone in a completely different cinematic direction at this point.

[edit] And on that note, the whole fucking franchise is cashed. Forget the Riddler, there aren't any other villains that would work on the same level again. None. It would have been cool to get a part 3 with Heath again - y'know, like the old Superman movies kept on having Lex - because that shit would keep on working - but that isn't gonna happen, obviously. So they should just end it here. How about instead of squeezing a franchise for all it's worth (X-Men, Spider-Man), you just spend that money on the gazillion other good comic characters DC has?

Mortal Kombat Vs. DC - The Movie.

[K9]

[Pennilenko]

I think Penguin has always been an incredibly stupid villain myself.  But what else are they gonna do?  Catwoman?

Halle Berry as the Catwoman = Win???

[eldaec]

The idea that I might get capped by some jackass who commits crimes based around riddles should be terrifying.

This.

People are still looking at possible villians as if the franchise wasn't being run by the Nolans.

They've twice shown that they are perfectly willing to take characters back to basics are work out what is needed to make them shine.


The Riddler is just a villian who likes green and leaves messages to fuck with people's minds. The Nolans won't carry any more baggage than that, and so if they can create the Ledger-Joker, the Murphy-Scarecrow, and Eckhart-Two Face then there no reason they couldn't create an awesome Depp-Riddler.

Since they are basically reinventing these villians from scratch, there is no villian they could announce that is going to make me think 'oh noes'.

[eldaec]

Penguin is a bit tricker

I actually think Penguin would be too easy in this context, rich club boss who wears a suit. How hard is that? Establish a disability to give him a funny walk and you're all set. 

That said Christopher Nolan is on record agreeing with you. But he's also on record saying that apart from the Joker he'd prefer to avoid villians that have already been used in films.

[stray]

They aren't reinventing these villains at all!! They're getting to the core of them, and stripping camp.

And it's quite possible to strip camp from Riddler.

The problem is that his schtick is in a completely different direction than this series. You might as well include anything then.

[Amarr HM]

I think they should do a take on Frank Miller's graphic novel of the same name if they really wanted to end the franchise nicely. Sin City meets Gotham, Wonder Woman as the crack whore and the riddler as a fucked up pimp now that's getting to the core 

[Ironwood]

In that case, I hope you never make a film.  Ever.  Even a wedding video.

[UnSub]

I think they should do a take on Frank Miller's graphic novel of the same name if they really wanted to end the franchise nicely. Sin City meets Gotham, Wonder Woman as the crack whore and the riddler as a fucked up pimp now that's getting to the core 

You've got "The Spirit" to look forward to then.