The Dark Knight

[SnakeCharmer]

Whole bunch of stuff

I'll take "Reading Too Much Into A Movie" for $1,000, Alex.

Great movie.  OMG BEST EVA?  No, but great movie nonetheless.

[Raguel]

Lots of stuff that was almost completely wrong.

I have to agree with Ahoythematey and Haemish. Even with Litigator's allegories, we have force/fascism, who is ostensibly trying to protect justice/constitution, creating terrorism, and through incompetence/underestimating the enemy ("one man or the entire Mob...") it lets terrorism grow to the point where it corrupts justice/the constitution, which is eventually killed by force. And that's with knowing who to torture and when to relinquish power. Not exactly a ringing endorsement IMO. 

[Quinton]

And also, the bit with the bombs on the boats was bullshit. That was supposed to signify the redemption of the Gothamites and their refusal to play the Joker's sick games.  But no viewer is really going to believe that nobody on either one of those boats would be willing to push that button. 

Actually, I believed it. The guy on the civilian boat illustrated it. It's easy to say you'd push that button, until you have to actually push that button.

I was mildly disappointed that the Joker had a backup detonator at all -- I thought he possibly had total faith that human nature would ensure at least one boat went boom.

One thing you have to wonder about the Boat Dilemma.  This is the Joker.  Do you REALLY believe he gave you the detinator to the OTHER boat?  REALLY?  I might not be so sure.

I'd say the odds would be better of it being the same boat -- when the guy on the boat without the prisoners stepped up to pull the trigger I was expecting it to go that way.

[UnSub]

I didn't think the film presented a single instance in which Batman's decisions turned out to be wrong. He is like Benito Christ.

*SPOILERS*

 - Batman turns out to be wrong about believing in Harvey Dent.

 - Batman makes the decision to save Rachel Dawes over Dent, despite what would be best for the city. The film shows him to make the wrong choice.

 - Batman makes a wrong choice in how he catches the Joker: look how it ends up - he's had to step beyond his own restrictions in the interrogation and it ends up with lots of dead cops.

 - Batman turns out to be wrong in trusting Gordon as much as he does, because Gordon trusts his bent cops.

 - Batman keesp underestimating the Joker.

Suffice to say, there is clear evidence of Batman being wrong in "The Dark Knight". What there isn't, unfortunately, is any scenes of character realisation about that wrongness.

If you want, you can of course turn "The Dark Knight" into an allegory that both justifies and condemns current political circumstances. There is enough material in it to do so.

And I can't wait until we hit this kind of discussion about "Watchmen". 

[Triforcer]

Great movie, but imho, not as good as Batman Begins.  A few random nitpicks:

1)  The look of Gotham City.  Gotham is supposed to be Depression-era NYC crossed with 1985 NYC at 3AM, on steroids.  Batman Begins pulled this off brilliantly-  heck, even Batman and Robin had sort of a fevered-baroque-dream Gotham thing going that wasn't terrible (complete with giant kneeling statues of naked men  ).  Judging by the skyline in the daytime aerial shots and the wide, clean, empty streets, this movie was filmed in Cincinnati.

2)  Ledger pulled off the Joker fucking brilliantly, given the script he was handed.   Oscar-level brilliant.  That being said, this wasn't a take on the Joker I liked.  I recognized the allusions to The Killing Joke, what with the theme that "anyone can go mad" and all.  But all of the Saw shit was bizarrely out of place.  The Joker probably has played the "you only have time to save one person!" stuff in the comics, but the pool cue and boat stuff just isn't him.  On a related note, the Joker was just too preachy.  In the comics, he is batshit crazy, not an anarchist philosopher who tries to sell his philosophy to everyone he meets with the fervor of a door-to-door encyclopedia salesman.     

3)  Dent's part in this movie should've ended with the hospital scene.  That would've made sense and set him up for the future.  That ending was just stupid, and Batman's "sacrifice" was doubly stupid.

Still better than 95% of movies I've seen in theaters.  Maybe my problem is what others view as a strength- this transcended comic book movie and was more of a gritty drama. 

[ahoythematey]

I've been thinking about why the city looks a bit brighter and cleaner than in begins.  I wonder if they did that deliberately to show that Batman's actions are helping clean up the city, that things are looking less grim now for the average Gotham citizen.

[SurfD]

- Batman makes the decision to save Rachel Dawes over Dent, despite what would be best for the city. The film shows him to make the wrong choice.

But he ended up saving Dent anyway, and Rachel ended up getting flash fried, so i'm a bit confused about what you mean there.

The Joker set it up so that the locations were switched.  The location given for Dent was actually Dawes.  Batman decided to save Dawes, and ends up saving Dent.

Are you therefore implying that if he had decided to save Dent (and ended up saving Dawes instead) and Dent got blown up (which is the assumption if the situation were reversed), this would have been the correct choice, and therefore better somehow for the city, with Gotham's "White Knight" dead?

Either way his choice would have been technically wrong, because (due to writers deus-ex) someone out of the two ends up dead. And either Dawes ends up a bitter ex-fiance, or Dent ends up a psychological wreck of a broken man.

[Rasix]

Are you therefore implying that if he had decided to save Dent (and ended up saving Dawes instead) and Dent got blown up (which is the assumption if the situation were reversed), this would have been the correct choice, and therefore better somehow for the city, with Gotham's "White Knight" dead?

The inherent value of the choice has nothing to do with the outcome.  He picks his friend, his one belief in a normal life, and his unrequited love over Dent:  the white knight of gotham, the uncorruptable DA, and the force behind the cities unwillingness to sink to the Joker's level.  Rachel has her own value to the society, but not on the symbolic or practical level of Dent.

Joker could have replace either with stuffed purple elephants and it doesn't change what the choice was.  He picked Rachel.

There was no deus-ex involved, the Joker knew who Batman would pick.  He wanted Dent to live.

[Ironwood]

(like that crazy feminist who tried to claim that all consensual hetero sex is rape and as such Firefly/Serenity is a misogynist's wet dream),

Whut ?

[UnSub]

- Batman makes the decision to save Rachel Dawes over Dent, despite what would be best for the city. The film shows him to make the wrong choice.

But he ended up saving Dent anyway, and Rachel ended up getting flash fried, so i'm a bit confused about what you mean there.

The Joker set it up so that the locations were switched.  The location given for Dent was actually Dawes.  Batman decided to save Dawes, and ends up saving Dent.

Are you therefore implying that if he had decided to save Dent (and ended up saving Dawes instead) and Dent got blown up (which is the assumption if the situation were reversed), this would have been the correct choice, and therefore better somehow for the city, with Gotham's "White Knight" dead?

Either way his choice would have been technically wrong, because (due to writers deus-ex) someone out of the two ends up dead. And either Dawes ends up a bitter ex-fiance, or Dent ends up a psychological wreck of a broken man.

My point was that Batman tried to save Rachel and both he and Dent got screwed by that decision (and I'm sure Rachel wasn't too happy about it either). I'm simply refuting the statement that Batman didn't make any mistakes or wrong decisions.

Batman's saving of Dent was hardly perfect, either.

One problem with "The Dark Knight" is that it is almost like the Joker got to read the key parts of the script first. Some of his planning was just too clever.

[Trippy]

(like that crazy feminist who tried to claim that all consensual hetero sex is rape and as such Firefly/Serenity is a misogynist's wet dream),

Whut ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin#Intercourse

[Ironwood]

 

[Trippy]

You asked

[Ironwood]

I did and I appreciate the info.

The info itself is insane, of course, but it doesn't dampen the appreciation.

[Tebonas]

Wouldn't that be true for tongues as well? Would it be ok for women to dominate each other that way or is sex always bad for her? Which would explain why her mind snapped.

I could say something about Batman, but the movie didn't start in the cinemas here yet.

[Brogarn]

Bad ass film. So many things can be taken away from it, be it political commentary, artistic expression, or otherwise.

As far as the look of Gotham goes, I think they filmed it in Chicago, but I'm not sure about that. I kind of agree that in some ways it didn't feel like Gotham, but I did like that it was a city grounded in reality. So, I'm torn on that.

[bhodikhan]

I've been thinking about why the city looks a bit brighter and cleaner than in begins.  I wonder if they did that deliberately to show that Batman's actions are helping clean up the city, that things are looking less grim now for the average Gotham citizen.

This was a conscious decision by Chris Nolan and Nathan Crowley (production designer) - they wanted to move the whole look of Gotham away from what they felt was a fantasy world and put it firmly into a recogniseable environment. We deliberately avoided gothic/deco structures and even went as far as altering buildings in some of the plates to make them less gothic - Chris wanted this to be very clearly a new film showing another aspect of Gotham rather than an extension of the Batman Begins world. Nathan also made an interesting point when he told us that because there was so much going on in the scenes he didn't feel the need to over-elaborate the look of the film: "we kept blowing stuff up all the time so the environments needed to stay clean and simple".

The actual architecture is pretty much 100% Chicago, though we did add some digital structures based on New York buildings in a few shots. You do get a bit of a "gothic moment" during the Chopper/Truck/Batpod scenes on LaSalle Street which has some of that look.

[Trippy]

Who is "we"?

[bhodi]

One problem with "The Dark Knight" is that it is almost like the Joker got to read the key parts of the script first. Some of his planning was just too clever.

That's what makes him great. The whole point of The Joker is that he's always 3 steps ahead of everyone, especially people who react based on emotions (that he manipulates)

The magic trick was supposed to be indicative of this.


There was some tongue in cheek in this movie though, like every story about how The Joker got his scars was one of his origin stories.

[Triforcer]

By the way, was the Sen. Leahy cameo my imagination, or was that actually him?

[ahoythematey]

It was him.  Apparently he is a fan.

A big fan of the Batman comics, Leahy lent his voice in an episode of Batman: The Animated Series as a Governor in a western tale involving Ra's al Ghul and Jonah Hex. He also appeared as a cameo in Batman and Robin, and has another cameo in the 2008 film The Dark Knight.[10] Leahy's character, a guest at a fund raiser for Harvey Dent, is grabbed by The Joker and the Clown Prince of Crime tells the guest that he reminds him of his father. Leahy wrote the introduction to the collected edition of Green Arrow: the Archer's Quest and the foreword to the first volume of The Dark Knight Archives, a hardcover reprinting of the first four issues of the Batman comic book.

[UnSub]

(like that crazy feminist who tried to claim that all consensual hetero sex is rape and as such Firefly/Serenity is a misogynist's wet dream),

Whut ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin#Intercourse

Dworkin is someone who can be safely ignored. Besides, I though she was dead by the time Firefly / Serenity came out.

[bhodikhan]

Who is "we"?

For those who are interested:

Dneg - Bruce's penthouse scenes, armored car chase, Batmobile/Batpod/chopper, big crowd scene, ferries, Gotham City views and extensions, Pruitt building sequence, batsignals, digital doubles

Framestore (I'm not entirely sure of their total workload) - Two Face, Hong Kong sequence, Hospital sequence, digital doubles, sonar vision eyes.

Buf -  sonar vision POV shots.

New Deal Studios (miniatures and models) - Garbage Truck crash, Hong Kong pyro building elements.

Cinesite Europe - ground level Batsignal beams, some grapple gun wires, additional comps.

In all there are approximately 700 shots in the final film. I'd guess that around 200 of those are IMAX, the rest are anamorphic scope.

[Abagadro]

I actually really apprecisated the stripped down production design.  It's minimalism really helped bring the story more down to the characters rather than getting in the way like I thought Burton's did at times.

[HaemishM]

Great movie, but imho, not as good as Batman Begins.  A few random nitpicks:

1)  The look of Gotham City.  Gotham is supposed to be Depression-era NYC crossed with 1985 NYC at 3AM, on steroids.  Batman Begins pulled this off brilliantly-  heck, even Batman and Robin had sort of a fevered-baroque-dream Gotham thing going that wasn't terrible (complete with giant kneeling statues of naked men  ).  Judging by the skyline in the daytime aerial shots and the wide, clean, empty streets, this movie was filmed in Cincinnati.

Chicago, actually. And I thought it did a great job of portraying a modern fictional city without all the extra froo-froo that got way too over the top in the last 2 camp Batman movies. We don't need more naked kneeling guy statues.

[Merusk]

Judging by the skyline in the daytime aerial shots and the wide, clean, empty streets, this movie was filmed in Cincinnati.

Living here, let me assure you that the streets in Cincinnati are not wide, clean or empty.  The major roads downtown are 2 lanes in most places with parallel parking on both sides.   They are trash-strewn on the 'cleanest' day and are always filled with cars due to the lack of parking garages and mass transit within the city proper. (But hey we've got tons of surface lots!  )

Perhaps you meant Cleveland. It's a lot more spread-out and nicely empty due to its mass transit.

[WayAbvPar]

Saw it, loved it. Best take on Joker I have ever seen outside of a Frank Miller book. THIS is the Joker who is fucking crazy enough to snap his own neck just to pin it on Batman.

Minor nitpicks- Maggie G just didn't do it for me. Something about the way they made her up and dressed her- she just looked old and haggard.

I thought they rushed through the Harvey Dent storyline, essentially wasting what could have been subplot A of the next flick. Aaron Eckhart rules.

As soon as the two cops hit the screen with one of them speaking while the other was driving incognito, I told my wife it was Gordon. You would think that was the most obvious thing ever, but there were actual gasps of astonishment in the theatre when he was finally revealed.

I really need to see it again- I was still mulling over the previous scene when the new scene picked up. Hectic pace.

Definitely the best movie I have seen this year.

[Oz]

Are you therefore implying that if he had decided to save Dent (and ended up saving Dawes instead) and Dent got blown up (which is the assumption if the situation were reversed), this would have been the correct choice, and therefore better somehow for the city, with Gotham's "White Knight" dead?

Yes.  Dent dying WOULD have been the better choice for Gotham.  if Dent had died he'd have been martyred and could have been used as a symbol for the people of Gotham to rally around in an effort to clean up the city.  The corruption and fall of the "white knight" was way worse for Gotham and its people then his death.

Isn't that the whole point of why batman decides to take the fall and they cover up Dent's corruption?

At least that's how i perceive it.

[LK]

Either he died a hero (which the Joker didn't want) or he lived long enough to see himself become the villian (LONG ENOUGH being the key phrase here).

The whole thing was a masterpiece.

[Brogarn]

Spoilers. I hope by now, though, that anyone reading this thread knows it's chock full of them and won't read it until they see it. Anyways...


I didn't realize the guy in the mask was Gordon. I thought he was going to turn out to be another one of Joker's people.

[jason]

And also, the bit with the bombs on the boats was bullshit. That was supposed to signify the redemption of the Gothamites and their refusal to play the Joker's sick games.  But no viewer is really going to believe that nobody on either one of those boats would be willing to push that button. 

Actually, I believed it. The guy on the civilian boat illustrated it. It's easy to say you'd push that button, until you have to actually push that button.

I was mildly disappointed that the Joker had a backup detonator at all -- I thought he possibly had total faith that human nature would ensure at least one boat went boom.

The Joker had a detonator because of his threat that if anyone got off the boats or anyone tried to save them, he'd blow up both of them... I believe he also said that if neither picked by midnight, he's blow up both.

[Riggswolfe]

Spoilers. I hope by now, though, that anyone reading this thread knows it's chock full of them and won't read it until they see it. Anyways...


I didn't realize the guy in the mask was Gordon. I thought he was going to turn out to be another one of Joker's people.

Same here. I kept waiting for him to shoot the passenger in the truck, then go around back and attack Harvey Dent. I think it was intentional misdirection on the Director's part.

[Triforcer]

And lest we forget what came before:
http://www.independentcritics.com/reviews/batmanandrobin.htm

[Velorath]

And lest we forget what came before:
http://www.independentcritics.com/reviews/batmanandrobin.htm

I don't think anyone is going to forget Batman and Robin sucked.  The only thing I took away from that link is that one of the reviewers seems to think that Bob Kane was one of the screenplay writers.

[stray]

Morph, I took those statements about Ledger back after I watched more of his movies.

Anyhow, really complex movie. And good.

Iron Man is still better though. Sorry.

[edit] On another note, I really hope they don't make a sequel (is one even planned?). There's no point in saying anything else than what was in here. Heath has passed away obviously, but as the Joker said, he and Batman will just keep fighting forever. And as Harvey said, the world revolves around chance. Flip a coin. The end.