Star Trek Online: Here We Go Again!

[Koyasha]

I look at it like the fools that were willing to play ChampO may as well play STO, because in reality it's probably a better product with better long-term potential.  But, then we just get into arguments over varying degrees of MMO suckage, rather than what sux and what doesnt.

I think part of it for me (as someone who got some fun out of Champions), is that a goofy super hero beat em up game can get away with being shallow and feature light as long as I get to beat up bad guys.   Star Trek doesn't have that luxury, but its suffers from the same things.  Its not the Champions is better or worse, really, but just that I can find it in my heart to forgive a lot more in a shlocky super hero game.

That's partly true for me as well, many of the issues I have with STO wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't Star Trek.  But from Star Trek, I expect more in order to call it good.  When you pick a pre-existing IP, you have to live up to, not only the reality of that IP, but also at least to some degree the idea the fans have in their minds OF that IP.  (Although it is impossible to fully live up to said idea.)  If this game were a random new IP instead of an established and loved IP, many people that are viewing it harshly and with massive criticism would perhaps instead shrug their shoulders and say 'eh, it's ok.' instead of lambasting it on every flaw that they see in their precious Star Trek universe.

I see all sorts of things that, even with the limitations of the game and the engine they have, could have been done vastly better and more true to Star Trek, and I'm going to call them on every one of those things, when in a generic IP they wouldn't even be an issue.

[Tannhauser]

Well I think you should.  STO should immerse you, at least a little bit, in the Star Trek universe.  I'm encouraged that initial impressions aren't too bad. 

[Riggswolfe]

I've enjoyed my time in OB. I quite like that the game uses a skill system even if it is a hybrid leve/skill system. The space combat alone is enough for me to enjoy but I don't know how long it'll hold my interest.

[Goreschach]

So is this the part where everyone gets really excited over the game until a month after release when you all realize it sucks donkey balls?

[Venkman]

Well I think you should.  STO should immerse you, at least a little bit, in the Star Trek universe.  I'm encouraged that initial impressions aren't too bad. 

Give it another week. That's all it will take. They should have skipped OB on this one.

[Modern Angel]

So is this the part where everyone gets really excited over the game until a month after release when you all realize it sucks donkey balls?

Maybe. I'm kind of over expecting years of entertainment from MMOs. Most single player games (except open ended strategy games) I get a month, maybe two out of. Even the best of them. I'm just not at the point in my life anymore where I can or should be immersed for years on end by a game.

[Hoax]

So is this the part where everyone gets really excited over the game until a month after release when you all realize it sucks donkey balls?

Maybe. I'm kind of over expecting years of entertainment from MMOs. Most single player games (except open ended strategy games) I get a month, maybe two out of. Even the best of them. I'm just not at the point in my life anymore where I can or should be immersed for years on end by a game.

I know that sounds like its logical but really it isn't.  If a single player game released with half the missing content bugs and other fuck ups this game has there would be no end to us trashing it.

I just don't understand how people are able to say the game isn't fun in the long term, the world no longer exists in any meaningful way, its still as buggy and content sparce as your average MMO launch but I'm going to play it anyways!

[Ratman_tf]

Lag today has been epic. I was trying to do the P'Jem mission for the Vulcan ambassador dude, and everything was warping around due to the lag. Not to mention the control delay.

And I'm getting that starship on the planet bug when I land. It usually goes away after a few seconds.

[01101010]

Well I think you should.  STO should immerse you, at least a little bit, in the Star Trek universe.  I'm encouraged that initial impressions aren't too bad. 

Give it another week. That's all it will take. They should have skipped OB on this one.

Week? I thought it was already there last week.

[Riggswolfe]

So is this the part where everyone gets really excited over the game until a month after release when you all realize it sucks donkey balls?

I haven't seen anyone here that is really excited about it. Their forums have some of the delusional fanboys complete with "they'll patch it at release, you'll see!!!!!" Here I think I may be the closest to enthusiastic and my "review" is: eh...I'll play it for the free month.

[Ghambit]

Anyone know if they're even going to have separate server choices at all?
This sharded system seems to work pretty well on smaller games, but for something like Trek I sometimes get a bit worried.  Also, since everything is so instanced and so tightly packed, (not to mention travel times are near nonexistent) that's a lot of load times and server-swaps that have to be done.  It's GOTTA tax the system.  This is before you even consider the auto-grouping mechanics and cross-server/game chat.

It's an impressive server tech. to be sure, but I kinda scratch my head how it's gonna hold up initially.

[Modern Angel]

I just don't understand how people are able to say the game isn't fun in the long term, the world no longer exists in any meaningful way, its still as buggy and content sparce as your average MMO launch but I'm going to play it anyways!

What, you've never played a game and thought, "Yeah, that had a month of fun in it?" I did with Borderlands. Played it for a month, stopped, no longer installed. Why does an MMO *have* to provide more than that month's of fun content if you're fine with only playing it for a month?

[Venkman]

People expect MMOs to give them a reason to continue the billing cycle I'd have gone OB on this one maybe a week before launch, and only for those who pre-ordered.

[Modern Angel]

I understand people look for a longer term commitment. I'm saying that maybe it's okay to just enjoy (or not enjoy, depending on the game) one of these things just as you would any other game instead of putting the entire onus on longevity. If STO has one month of content, and I'm still not sold that it does, then I may enjoy that one month of content and not get upset over it not being more.

[Nebu]

So, is it a safe guess that your comments about the OB mean that playing through the OB will pretty much show you all that there is to see?  That's how I'm reading it.

[Mavor]

 For anyone interested there are 100 keys left at: http://hailingfrequency.com/boards/index.php/topic,2006.830.html

 Register -> post in thread -> add yourself to the group and you will get one.

[Riggswolfe]

I just don't understand how people are able to say the game isn't fun in the long term, the world no longer exists in any meaningful way, its still as buggy and content sparce as your average MMO launch but I'm going to play it anyways!

What, you've never played a game and thought, "Yeah, that had a month of fun in it?" I did with Borderlands. Played it for a month, stopped, no longer installed. Why does an MMO *have* to provide more than that month's of fun content if you're fine with only playing it for a month?

That's kind of the theory I'm going with. And if a few months down the road they improve it I'll go back. It's what I did with LOTRO.

[UnSub]

If you are referring to COX, the Cryptic engine I believe is Post COX sale. Its brand new for them, and not the same engine or game layer.

The Cryptic Engine used in STO is an updated version of the same engine they used for CoH/V. Cryptic have always gone on about their proprietary toolsets. However, what the difference is between what CoH/V uses and what STO uses is open for discussion. They might be similar engines only in their name.

Here's what I don't get.  Cryptic makes CoH/CoV.  A game that really came close to being a title I (and many) would play and enjoy for some time.  How is it that they can get that close on a project and then take a bunch of money and blow it on something going in COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE (maybe wrong, we'll see) DIRECTION?

Because a good number of the people who worked on CoX stayed with that project when it was sold off.  Especially a lot of the systems designers.

The 15 people (plus one extra - pohsyb) jumped ship from Cryptic NCsoft. Some were very long term Cryptic people - Melissa Bianco aka War Witch who was a zone designer and their first ever hire, I believe - but it's incorrect to say that it was the same team as built CoH/V in its entirety. It's more a case of the CoH/V live team plus one elected to be part of a new studio where lots of growth was promised. Allegedly some other Cryptic people have made their way over to Paragon Studios and I think that it now has about 50 people.

Emmert remained at Cryptic, as did the original CoH/V powers guy Geko (Al Riveria) who is Lead Designer of STO. Thomas Foss was Head Zone Designer and stayed with Cryptic (don't know if he still is). A lot of the original management of Cryptic remained the same after the shift, although there was natural attrition across CoH/V's life as well. Other people who worked on CoH/V are still at Cryptic afaik - Poz being one. Since CoH/V's shift outside of Paragon Studios, the only known people to have left have been community managers, although it's not like they go around announcing departures.

Going back to the original question - why was game X fun but game Y not the same - in CoH/V's case it probably came close to being vapourware and a lot of the early criticisms of CoH/V is that it was fun for 30 days but too shallow and grindy past that. The same criticisms have been levelled at both ChampO and STO.

The other issue is that game designers / developers learn a mix of lessons from their first title and then try to apply those lessons to their next game. Sometimes they get it totally right, sometimes they get it totally wrong and usually the things they change cause a whole new set of complications. Like CoH/V "it's too instanced", so ChampO has a bigger open world but this leads to the complaint that "there aren't enough instances". Or complaints that gameplay was too slow in CoH/V, but now it is too hectic in ChampO.

Oh, and I firmly think that STO did have a solid base of comparison for development: POTBS, minus the economy.

[Kageru]

I'm more willing to subscribe if I feel the developer has good intentions, a clear plan, and just didn't have the resources to finish their grand plan yet. I'll give some leeway on the basis of "I like where this is going". If it doesn't pan out, or goes slower, that's fine too though I may not be subscribed through all the of the intervening time.

If the game is just a half-assed and half-baked money grab from people who should know better or are milking an IP they can go screw themselves. So both Borderlands (overpriced half-assed shallow console port) and STO are in that category. I'd probably still get some fun out of it, but I can get fun out of other games without supporting crap.

[Modern Angel]

Oh, and I firmly think that STO did have a solid base of comparison for development: POTBS, minus the economy.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner! It's absolutely inspired by (read: ripped from) PotBS. Right down to the classes + talent spec stuff. I don't think that's a bad thing, by the way. I was actually fond of PotBS except for it feeling way more strictly diku in its class and leveling structure than STO does at first blush.

[Count Nerfedalot]

I'm just wondering how that can produce such a fun and hectic combat experience in one MMO and then completely abandon it in another. 

Also remember that Cryptic didn't even wait till the next MMO to screw up a lot of the magic in CoH.  Emmert's edict against players having the ability to wade through mobs of henchmen, and the ripple of secondary effects that came from implementing that change, drastically diminished the "fun" factor of CoH, and made the "unfun" parts (like the painful levelling curve) far more apparent, and difficult to excuse or ignore.

[Hoax]

I understand people look for a longer term commitment. I'm saying that maybe it's okay to just enjoy (or not enjoy, depending on the game) one of these things just as you would any other game instead of putting the entire onus on longevity. If STO has one month of content, and I'm still not sold that it does, then I may enjoy that one month of content and not get upset over it not being more.

Its not about longevity its about why would you play a game that is obviously worse then other games?  Go buy Star Fleet Command for like $5 somewhere if you want to play a great straight translation of SFB on the PC.

I'm trying to say that MMO's that don't offer a virtual world / sandbox

Are obviously just derivative clones of what we've all played before

Are launching in a buggy fucked up state

Just don't make me want to get in and grind through the fedex quests and kill 10 foozles and I'm sorta surprised so many of you seem to go in for it time and again.

[UnSub]

I'm just wondering how that can produce such a fun and hectic combat experience in one MMO and then completely abandon it in another. 

Also remember that Cryptic didn't even wait till the next MMO to screw up a lot of the magic in CoH.  Emmert's edict against players having the ability to wade through mobs of henchmen, and the ripple of secondary effects that came from implementing that change, drastically diminished the "fun" factor of CoH, and made the "unfun" parts (like the painful levelling curve) far more apparent, and difficult to excuse or ignore.

One class could farm the entire map by themselves. Changes were bound to happen. You can argue how good those changes were, but no doubt they were due.

[Ghambit]

Its not about longevity its about why would you play a game that is obviously worse then other games?  Go buy Star Fleet Command for like $5 somewhere if you want to play a great straight translation of SFB on the PC.

I'm trying to say that MMO's that don't offer a virtual world / sandbox

Are obviously just derivative clones of what we've all played before

Are launching in a buggy fucked up state

Just don't make me want to get in and grind through the fedex quests and kill 10 foozles and I'm sorta surprised so many of you seem to go in for it time and again.

The reality is there's not much left to give when it comes to Trek gaming.  This is basically all she wrote for a while and there's not been much aside from niche-trek gaming for a long time - SF3 included (actually a pretty thriving community, but niche nonetheless).  The consensus I've seen so far is that most folks are just grinning and bearing it for the simple fact they really, really want to play a new Trek game.  And one that's MMO social is all the better.  It's really that simple.  Cryptic knows this so they use their cheaptastic biz model on the game's development in hopes of just selling out on box sales and skimping by on longevity.

Many, many folks know all of this and know their fate... but none (including myself) care.  It's a Trek MMO that's JUST good enough to spend a bit of money on, so gotta do it.  I personally am gonna link up with a still functioning "Earth and Beyond" guild (also a still thriving community the majority of which will be playing STO), form a Fleet of sci-fi junkies and just live it up until it gets old.  The game has enough synergies in space, ground, and itemization that a good Fleet can make a big difference in Fun Factor... even if only a bit of time per day.

As for Endgame, which I've been trying to find out wth Cryptic's plans are, I've been getting nothing but "cryptic" responses from the devs.  They assure that "There is much more to end game than crafting and PvP," but they wont say what that means.  It could mean just repeatable cluster missions, fleet actions, etc.  boooooring   Hopefully they have exotic plans they cant talk about right now - but odds are it wont be in place quick enough to make a difference anyways.  I am sad.

[Stormwaltz]

Spent six hours downloading the client from a ~300 kbps site last night. I actually fired it up tonight, planning to screw around with character creation.

Connection to login server timed out.
Connection to login server timed out.
Connection to login server timed out.
Connection to login server timed out.
Connection to login server timed out.

...Really?

At 1:30AM on a Thursday?

All I got to see was the login screen, which had a display error causing the Fed and Klingon character UIs to render at the same time.

Gotta tell you guys, so far this beta has left a strong impression on me. ¬_¬

[Surlyboi]

They took the server down for emergency maintenance about four hours ago. The supposedly brought them back up, but the login server's been shitting the bed since then.

As for the Klingon/Federation image thing, I've been getting that all day.

[Hawkbit]

I could actually see myself subbing to this for a month or two as a time waster, but only if the box fee was $20.  

It just screams Cryptic.  I think the first sounds I heard when launching the game were CoX effects.  The font, the terrible UI, the atrocious animations.  It's a Cryptic game.

EDIT:  The server issues would need to be taken care of.  Rubberbanding sucks.

[Mrbloodworth]

[Modern Angel]

EDIT:  The server issues would need to be taken care of.  Rubberbanding sucks.

That's one of the few things I'm not worried about in the least. CO had terrible server issues in open beta but they were fixed by the end.

[Sheepherder]

It is and it isn't. You can go up and down, for instance, I've been way above battles. However, attacks comes from front, back, or side, and not from top and bottom. IE, if I "dive" down on a Klingon my attack will hit one of those four angles and not the top of his ship.

That sucks.  Could be worse.

[kildorn]

It is and it isn't. You can go up and down, for instance, I've been way above battles. However, attacks comes from front, back, or side, and not from top and bottom. IE, if I "dive" down on a Klingon my attack will hit one of those four angles and not the top of his ship.

That sucks.  Could be worse.

Honestly, it's for sanity's sake more than anything else. 360 degree shielding would be a bitch to describe in the UI, and probably chase off a lot of newer players. As is, how shielding and reinforcing works seems to confuse the shit out of people.

[Malakili]

It is and it isn't. You can go up and down, for instance, I've been way above battles. However, attacks comes from front, back, or side, and not from top and bottom. IE, if I "dive" down on a Klingon my attack will hit one of those four angles and not the top of his ship.

That sucks.  Could be worse.

Honestly, it's for sanity's sake more than anything else. 360 degree shielding would be a bitch to describe in the UI, and probably chase off a lot of newer players. As is, how shielding and reinforcing works seems to confuse the shit out of people.

Its pretty intuitive if you ever watched/read ANY science fiction in which ships use shield technology.  The UI is pretty bad, but I thought the shields thing was one of the stronger points, all told.

[fuser]

Servers went down last night for a long emergency maintenance.  Another ~13mb patch today, at least they are keeping people informed http://www.startrekonline.com/node/886

[Sheepherder]

Honestly, it's for sanity's sake more than anything else. 360 degree shielding would be a bitch to describe in the UI, and probably chase off a lot of newer players. As is, how shielding and reinforcing works seems to confuse the shit out of people.

Link

[Riggswolfe]

Its pretty intuitive if you ever watched/read ANY science fiction in which ships use shield technology.  The UI is pretty bad, but I thought the shields thing was one of the stronger points, all told.

It actually is, especially with the transparent shield indicators around your ship. "Oh, that one is getting thin, better turn or distribute shield power." One thing I'm discovering is that the UI has a lot of hidden stuff in it that's not well documented. For instance, adding extra quickbars is quite easy but the game doesn't tell you how.

Edit: It's been a decade since I played my last Wing Commander (Prophecy, I actually loved that game complete with cheesy FMV) game but I don't honestly remember it having top and bottom shields either.