So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).

[Numtini]

The female DPS thing has started to hit my feminist web pages.

[cevik]

HAY HAY HAY there pal!

The PROGRAMMER could have simply made the arbitrary choice to make his timing off the length of the animations as well.

Any one of the departments could be at fault here, animation, design, or programming. We all know when you design something, its not necessarily how the programmer implements it, and we all know that when you animate something, chances are, you got the wrong specs, OR the programmer could have just assumed all animations were the same length ... ETC...

I know when i design something, 9 times out of 10, its not working right because of the programmer and his great ideas and shortcuts, because they never care about look and FEEL of the system, just working, or not. 

But the programmer likely is just taking bits of data that other people input.

My guess is the system is something where the animation has the time encoded, but the combo data is stored in a separate location.  So the programmer pulls the animation time out of the animation data and runs the animation, not allowing a new animation to start until the previous one finishes (which makes sense).  He also pulls the damage number out of some database of combo numbers and applies the damage number.  Input bad data into one of those two places and the results are bad, but it's hard to see where the programmer could be responsible for this particular error.

The time occurs off the length of the animations because it HAS to, otherwise you'd be cutting off animations in mid swing and things would be choppy.  Once an animation starts it has to come to conclusion before you start the next one or everything will stutter.

[Tarami]

In a place like Funcom, with dozens of animators and coders, neither of them are to blame for a bug of this kind. This is a systems designer that has pissed all over the specifications.

My point remains - an experienced programmer would never, ever do syncronous animation, especially not time-restricted animation. That's shit that exists in 10+ year old 2D games. It's the most natural thing in the world to decouple animation from game logic. This was a decision made by someone else.

Edit: pselling.

[photek]

The female DPS thing has started to hit my feminist web pages.

The feminists have webpages now ? Great. Whats next, leaving the kitchen ?! 

Seriously, I think this was intended to being with, but they realized it was a shitty idea afterall. The intended feature was to keep tr00 to Robert E. Howards vision of females in the Conan universe and represent it in the game.

EDIT : When you have an animation-based combat system how the hell can you make 1000 animations with 1.42 speed (which has more frames) and not "notice" it swings slower than males 1,25 speed.

[Oban]

The feminists have webpages now ? Great. Whats next, leaving the kitchen ?! 

Wow, you really are behind the times.  Women use kitchen computers to make their webpages.

[Ratman_tf]

[schild]

If I see that fucking cat one more time...

[Ratman_tf]

If I see that fucking cat one more time...

Moo.

[cevik]

Seriously, I think this was intended to being with, but they realized it was a shitty idea afterall. The intended feature was to keep tr00 to Robert E. Howards vision of females in the Conan universe and represent it in the game.

Yeah, it always comes back to the only real logical answer is that they intentionally did it.

[Threash]

I think if it was intentional females would have simply done less damage per hit.  It seems like an overtly complicated way to make them do less damage.

[Surlyboi]

Isn't everything females do overly complicated? 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Isn't everything females do overly complicated? 

and no one ever really understands how they work.

[UnSub]

In a place like Funcom, with dozens of animators and coders, neither of them are to blame for a bug of this kind. This is a systems designer that has pissed all over the specifications.

My point remains - an experienced programmer would never, ever do syncronous animation, especially not time-restricted animation. That's shit that exists in 10+ year old 2D games. It's the most natural thing in the world to decouple animation from game logic.

According to stuff I read on another site, Asheron's Call started out with animation-dependent damage.

I think it is the kind of thing that SOUNDS like a nifty idea, but the end result is ... welll ...

AoC - the only game so mysoginistic that it's hardcoded in!

[Margalis]

It's totally amateur. That's the only way to describe it. If someone told me that damage was tied to animations I'd seriously wonder if they even know how to program.

Now I can see the tool that puts animations together also letting you assign damage and hitboxes and such. But basing damage off of intrinsic properties of the animation like total execution time is just bizzare.

[Ingmar]

The female DPS thing has started to hit my feminist web pages.

The feminists have webpages now ? Great. Whats next, leaving the kitchen ?! 

Seriously, I think this was intended to being with, but they realized it was a shitty idea afterall. The intended feature was to keep tr00 to Robert E. Howards vision of females in the Conan universe and represent it in the game.

EDIT : When you have an animation-based combat system how the hell can you make 1000 animations with 1.42 speed (which has more frames) and not "notice" it swings slower than males 1,25 speed.

If it was intentional, it wouldn't have only been on *some* of the animations. Some of the female attack animations are at the right speed. It is just Funcom doing a half-assed job.

[sinij]

It's totally amateur. That's the only way to describe it. If someone told me that damage was tied to animations I'd seriously wonder if they even know how to program.

Now I can see the tool that puts animations together also letting you assign damage and hitboxes and such. But basing damage off of intrinsic properties of the animation like total execution time is just bizzare.

Does it mean if I tamper with animations I can potentially create damage hack?

[tmp]

Does it mean if I tamper with animations I can potentially create damage hack?

As long as the delays aren't calculated/watched on the server side, which i'd expect to be the case precisely due to possibility of such hacks. But then again i'd expect this animation->damage issue to never arise in the first place, so you never know 

[Simond]

From some vague mutterings I heard at launch, a fair amount of stuff you'd expect to be server-side is actually done in the client.
Oh, and the server logs are minimal to non-existent.

[UnSub]

From some vague mutterings I heard at launch, a fair amount of stuff you'd expect to be server-side is actually done in the client.
Oh, and the server logs are minimal to non-existent.

If that's true, there is not a  that's big enough to indicate how stupid that decision would be.

[Murgos]

If I see that fucking cat one more time...

...image snipped...

Moo.

I can't tell if you got the joke or not.

[sinij]

I am amazed how many good and bad decisions crammed into AoC - both technical and design.

Good example - entire zones will branch out if loaded past capacity, if too many people are crammed into single area on a single server it will create multiple instances and seamlessly divide people up. Why nobody ever thought of that before?
Bad example - melee combat is based entirely around circle-strafing. Almost every single soldier/rogue ability is based on landing melee animation, if you avoid front cone you become 100% invulnerable to melee.

[Trippy]

Good example - entire zones will branch out if loaded past capacity, if too many people are crammed into single area on a single server it will create multiple instances and seamlessly divide people up. Why nobody ever thought of that before?

Cause people already have (see CoH, EQ II, Guild Wars, et al).

[Falconeer]

Bad example - melee combat is based entirely around circle-strafing. Almost every single soldier/rogue ability is based on landing melee animation, if you avoid front cone you become 100% invulnerable to melee.

Isn't that so in real melee combat too?
No, seriously. It requires a bit of skill. You have to work to stay out of the cone, you have to work to keep them into your cone. What's wrong with it? Plus, it's not just a 1vs1 game.

[Ratman_tf]

Isn't that so in real melee combat too?
No, seriously. It requires a bit of skill. You have to work to stay out of the cone, you have to work to keep them into your cone. What's wrong with it? Plus, it's not just a 1vs1 game.

Not really. A real life fight is done with real life "rules", not bounding boxes, hit points, and "firing arcs".

But video games by their nature have to distill a fight into certain specific aspects. The question is, are those aspects fun and cool, or lame and unfun?

[Falconeer]

"if you avoid front cone you become 100% invulnerable to melee."

That sounded reasonable to me.
That said, yes I stretched it. But it works in Conan because what I said later: You have to work to stay out of the cone, you have to work to keep them into your cone. And it's not a 1vs1 battle most of the times so it doesn't all come down to that.

[tmp]

Not really. A real life fight is done with real life "rules", not bounding boxes, hit points, and "firing arcs".

Well, your own body is the bounding box (albeit more refined in shape), your endurance and willpower to go on is your hit points and your arms define your "firing arcs" -- it's rather difficult to effectively swing a stick more than 90 degree to either side (without the body twist)

Of all things implemented, the position/swing arcs/collision based combat is probably the one that makes the most sense, imo. You do have more control over your body in reality which leads to certain differences, but it makes for pretty good approximation... the whole stay out of enemy's cone while working them into yours thing is quite similar to the spanish circle school of fencing e.g., and small wonder too because mechanics are similar enough.

[sinij]

"if you avoid front cone you become 100% invulnerable to melee."

That sounded reasonable to me.
That said, yes I stretched it. But it works in Conan because what I said later: You have to work to stay out of the cone, you have to work to keep them into your cone. And it's not a 1vs1 battle most of the times so it doesn't all come down to that.

It isn't. It does two things - makes snares disproportionally strong, and makes power use highly inconsequential. As long as you circle-strafe it doesn't really matter if you use any combos, often using combos is downright detrimental due to 'rooting' you in place during final triggering. Melee vs melee fight right now is ridiculous to the point of being broken.

[Falconeer]

You are still talking about 1 vs 1.
What's your problem? The legendary gold feathered peacock also known as "Balance"? I guess it'll take some time for them to eventually even out things in duels.
But as far as group vs group PvP is concerned things are more than fine. I don't know if you are basing your comments on a few levels of random ganking in the PvP server or actual field experience with a group. The combat mechanics are surprisingly fun and solid, and although they can (obviously) be improved, I think you are missing the point.

Hell, even a few lousy minigames can show you how deep and interesting the PvP combat is. Let alone border kingdom warfare.

[Morfiend]

You are still talking about 1 vs 1.
What's your problem? The legendary gold feathered peacock also known as "Balance"? I guess it'll take some time for them to eventually even out things in duels.
But as far as group vs group PvP is concerned things are more than fine. I don't know if you are basing your comments on a few levels of random ganking in the PvP server or actual field experience with a group. The combat mechanics are surprisingly fun and solid, and although they can (obviously) be improved, I think you are missing the point.

Hell, even a few lousy minigames can show you how deep and interesting the PvP combat is. Let alone border kingdom warfare.

Your logic is flawed. Saying "oh but its 1v1, it doesnt count" doesnt cut it. 1v1 happens all the time on the PVP servers. If you play on a PVP server 1v1 is a huge part of the gameplay, and I have to agree with Sinji, melee dueling is fucking broken as all hell.

Also, not to mention that the swings arent really collision, it just checks if people are in range at the beginning of the swing. On white damage you cant tell this, but when using combos with a cast time (HoX) if some one runs up to you after you have started your swing, you wont hit them. This isnt a huge deal, but it is a little frustrating.
I also think the fact that combos get longer each time you level up skill is stupid. By max level all my combos are 5 swings, and the most effective way for me to PVP is to stay away from the person while winding up the combo and then just getting in range for it to land. I think this is broken.

[Venkman]

I also think the fact that combos get longer each time you level up skill is stupid. By max level all my combos are 5 swings, and the most effective way for me to PVP is to stay away from the person while winding up the combo and then just getting in range for it to land. I think this is broken.

So now pre-casted insta-Hally-hits are a bad thing?!   

[Falconeer]

Morfiend,

I didn't say 1vs1 doesn't count. I was trying to point out how good is PvP combat when it comes to grouping or massive battles, which is the focus of the game, but it was probably an accidental derail.
What I think is that if melee 1vs1 doesn't feel right to you (or Sinij) doesn't mean is broken.

So, is melee dueling in AoC broken? Tell me then, is a duel between two melee classes in other MMORPG, say two warriors in WoW or two guardians in EQ2, so much more interesting or deep, or skill based, than Conan's?
I really don't think so, especially because say what you want but there's a skill in all that circle strafing while hitting (some can do and constantly win, some can't) AND landing combos AND using terrain. If you can't see that I can't help you.

I also think the fact that combos get longer each time you level up skill is stupid. By max level all my combos are 5 swings, and the most effective way for me to PVP is to stay away from the person while winding up the combo and then just getting in range for it to land. I think this is broken.

You stay away from your enemy while winding up the combo? Why is that? That works as a opening but when combat is on it's pointless. I now understand your bitterness, you probably lost lots of duels. Those "wind up" swings are FREE damage you are supposed to land on your victim. It replaces casters' casting time which reuires you to stand still while doing nothing. Instead of an empty simon says system where you push 5 button and unleash a combo on the fifth press, you actually generate your combo WHILE doing white damage. If you land a combo after wasting the preparatory swings in the air you are going to deal much less damage than if you "prepared" your blow on your enemy's skin. No need to specify that landing those blows is up to you and your ability to keep your enemy in front of you. THAT IS WHY white damage requires actual range and collision and the final combo doesn't. Because that's the "reward" for completing the routine WHILE keeping your enemy in front of you. If you did it masterful you landed lots of damage. If you can only land the final hit... then you lost all the bonus damage while your opponent was probably being healed by a potion. Same is true for casting: of you were good enough to have a line of sight and the range to hit them when you started casting, then it's a hit (reward) even if they fled afterwards. The game doesn't penalize you for casting while standing still other than making you all very easy to be hit or interrupted.

Why does it gets longer as you level up? It's half a balance thing and half a skill thing. The more powerful and longest the combo is, the more skill becomes a factor in dueling. You can always dowrank and use shortest, earlier version of some combos. Less damage but more hits in less time. Lots of poeple use the weaker attacks while waiting for the strongest ones to recharge.

Why there's nothing like that for casters?  No idea. Magic needs combos too but that doesn't make melee 1vs1 broken.

[Morfiend]

You stay away from your enemy while winding up the combo? Why is that? That works as a opening but when combat is on it's pointless. I now understand your bitterness, you probably lost lots of duels.

Playing as a HoX you have to do this or you dont survive. Maybe I should have prefaced that with "The only melee class I have much experience with has to do this". And no, I didnt lose many duels. In fact I got called out several times for "all that stupid running around crap does not make you a good pvper" after winning.

[Falconeer]

In fact I got called out several times for "all that stupid running around crap does not make you a good pvper" after winning.

What's next? Poor Counter-strike players whining because you can kill them while moving instead of standing still waiting for their bullets?
Jumping need a nerf (stamina drain), strafing and circling is skill.

[Calantus]

You stay away from your enemy while winding up the combo? Why is that? That works as a opening but when combat is on it's pointless. I now understand your bitterness, you probably lost lots of duels. Those "wind up" swings are FREE damage you are supposed to land on your victim. It replaces casters' casting time which reuires you to stand still while doing nothing. Instead of an empty simon says system where you push 5 button and unleash a combo on the fifth press, you actually generate your combo WHILE doing white damage. If you land a combo after wasting the preparatory swings in the air you are going to deal much less damage than if you "prepared" your blow on your enemy's skin. No need to specify that landing those blows is up to you and your ability to keep your enemy in front of you. THAT IS WHY white damage requires actual range and collision and the final combo doesn't. Because that's the "reward" for completing the routine WHILE keeping your enemy in front of you. If you did it masterful you landed lots of damage. If you can only land the final hit... then you lost all the bonus damage while your opponent was probably being healed by a potion. Same is true for casting: of you were good enough to have a line of sight and the range to hit them when you started casting, then it's a hit (reward) even if they fled afterwards. The game doesn't penalize you for casting while standing still other than making you all very easy to be hit or interrupted.

He's describing a form of jousting. Have you never heard of jousting before?

[Falconeer]

Not sure I got you and your quote, Cal. He was describing a form of jousting and I was telling him that it works better if you can strafe/dodge while keeping close to your enemy and hit than if you charge in/charge out (plain old jousting).
Either way, I fail to see the broken part.

I think Morfiend proved my point in his last post: he can do that better than many, and because of that he's called a bad PvPer? How surprising! I am sure many of those he killed with his circling/jousting skills quit in disgust blaming broken mechanics. It's like blaming Battlefield 1942 because you have to aim instead of just pulling the trigger, while in the end it's old MMORPGs' fault: they taught people that skill doesn't matter and "time invested" is the only thing that pays off. If something happens out of the box, it must be broken.