So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).

[lamaros]

What's odd is that in MMORPGs this is some sort of novel feature even though it's been the standard in all other video game genres for decades.

The tech is probably a lot more unforgiving.

[Rendakor]

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/186176/page/1

This review seems to cover most of the bases; it's written by someone who wanted to like the game very much so.

[El Gallo]

I've been wanting to rant about this for a while.  I think I am getting old, or maybe just crazy.  But I really, really, really don't get the love for AoC's "I stare at the UI and push 1 when it says PUSH THE ONE BUTTON and push 2 when it says PUSH THE TWO BUTTON" style of gameplay.

Actual combat in WoW is brain-dead easy. The only remotely interesting things are resource management and group coordination. Luckily, you don't have to  devote any focus to the actual combat because its mostly autopilot.

Actual combat in AoC is also brain-dead easy. The only remotely interesting things are resource management and group coordination. However, the game forces you to focus on the brain-dead easy part because it doesn't automate anything.

I found AoC's combat to be annoying and tedious rather than challenging or engaging.  Over time, this feeling increased to the point where I felt actively insulted by the game.  Macroing the combos made it slightly less insulting, but I swear my computer called me a moron a couple times even after that. 

I'll take "hit A and pray" over that any day and twice on Sundays.

[Slayerik]

You call it brain dead easy then say you macroed it in the next line?

Sounds like you missed a few combos to me, or that you are a bar starer and don't use a nostromo (and actually click the directionals and combos with your mouse instead). The real key is, to be excellent at combos it depends on the defense your enemy is using. If they are triple blocking the middle and you do a mainly middle combo, things can go bad for you quick. But obviously, as all things, opinions vary. Fuck WoW combat is my opinion.

[Tmon]

Pretty much, although LOTRO was more focused on telling a story, with fantastic single-player instances atmospheric zones. Hobbiton is just awesome. Turbine got so many things right with LOTRO; it had a great release and was quite well polished, but for some reason it just didn't click with people....

The only major design decision I strongly disagree with was giving prizes for killing ten gazillion rats. That kind of behavior shouldn't be encouraged.

I don't know why it didn't prove to be sticky, but in my case I had completely forgotten that I ever even played LOTRO until I saw this post.  This despite playing for two months post launch.  I think I have clearer memories of my two days in the DDO open beta than I do of LOTRO.

[Venkman]

LoTRO's story only mattered at all because of the source material. If it was the exact same game with a more generic name, it's supposedly one unique element wouldn't even be that. I would imagine all the folks seeking an improvement over WoW didn't bother reading the quest text anyway. Even if you're doing it for Aragorn, you're still just killing 10 wolves/thieves/orcs.

LoTRO did have more multi-step quest chains. Unfortunately, like their equivalent in other games, that is both more interesting AND harder to form groups around the group-required components (because invariably everyone's at a different stage).

Add to that the feeling of playing WoW underwater combat-wise, and that's why I feel LoTRO was meh, both financially and experientially.

[sam, an eggplant]

LOTRO had a better story, superior writing, and told it more competently. Obviously you do need to read the quest texts but if you did so you'd notice that they were far better than WoW, where many quests seemed disconnected from the world. The multi-step quest chains included multiple fully scripted solo instances that changed depending on the quest stage you were in. If you enjoy the lore, LOTRO was simply a superior single-player experience. You're right about the need for grouping; that certainly killed it for me. Underwater is an adroit way of describing the combat-- I didn't much like it, although I could deal. But again, the real problem is that it just didn't grab me, and I can't point to any specific spot where it lost me. LOTRO just didn't have "it".

[Venkman]

I agree the quality was there. But in typical WoW fashion, it didn't matter because there was no real choice. Heck, even AoC has some amount of choice, light though it may be. And apparently you can finally start making some choices in WoW's WotLK, but that seems relegate to whether to hunt certain animals or not.

Had LoTRO had some useful faction system where decisions you made had some accountability to your place in the world, then people wouldn't have any choice but to pay attention. Then the quality of the writing would matter more. As it was, it only matters to the few who go out of their way it read it, and then only out of curiosity or the vague sense of immersion.

[Xerapis]

Hmm...this purchase process is about as user-friendly as the air conditioner in hell.

What's up with this SMS to my cellphone shit?  Cause the code they sent me doesn't work when I try to verify it.  And when I tell them to send me a new code, they keep sending me the same one.

Ya know, even if everything is else is broken and fucked up, you should at least make sure people can still spend their money on it.

[Venkman]

I ask in all seriousness: what the heck are you talking about? I bought box, installed 2 DVDs, registered at site, launched and patched.

[Trippy]

He's in South Korea, as you should know. He's trying to purchase a digital download.

[Venkman]

I have no idea where anyone lives. Didn't think that was a requirement 

But where they live does explain some of the wierdness of registration.

[Rake]

That reminds me of when I'd finished my two weeks trial of Horizons.
I tried to pay for the game and they wouldn't let me subscribe, because I was in Japan.

Wish all my luck was this bad 

[Xerapis]

Where I live doesn't explain their inability to send a NEW code, rather than repeatedly sending the same invalid code.

[Numtini]

Just an odd guess, but have you tried both clients? If you're not in an NA IP range, I wonder if they sold you a EU code? (Or versa-vice or maybe your code will work in six months or whatever when they release in Asia.)

[cevik]

I think as far as server stability goes, AoC is a better launch than what my server was like at WoW's launch (I've never seen an AoC server crash).  But as far as client stability goes, WoW was better than AoC.  I'd say it's a wash.

As a followup:  The first round of (pretty major) server instability that I've seen happened this Sunday.  In fact it looked quite a bit like WoW back in those early days.  So I wanted to update and say that AoC has another tick against it as far as "smooth launches" go.

Since I was bragging about AoC's stability last week I thought it only fair that I point out this Sunday's flakiness.

[El Gallo]

You call it brain dead easy then say you macroed it in the next line?

I'm not sure why that's odd. I macroed out some of the tedious crap, which was tedious because it was brain dead easy.  I did not find hitting 1, waiting 1.35 seconds, hitting 2, waiting 1.35 seconds, hitting 1 again, waiting 1.35 seconds, and then hitting 3 again every time I wanted to use "SpecialIII" any more challenging, engaging, or interesting than hitting 1 every time I wanted to use "SpecialC" in WoW.  Macroed it to a nostromo key and the annoyance factor dropped quite a bit (except needing to change the delays every time I got a new weapon).

Sounds like you missed a few combos to me, or that you are a bar starer and don't use a nostromo (and actually click the directionals and combos with your mouse instead). The real key is, to be excellent at combos it depends on the defense your enemy is using. If they are triple blocking the middle and you do a mainly middle combo, things can go bad for you quick.

I only got to mid-20s, but it just seemed like "before you use your left-hitting uberspecial, use some rightside regular attacks or rightside specials until you see the three little white bars line up on the right side" which seemed tedious and anti-immersive to me, rather than interesting or hard to do.  Nor did it really seem to matter all that much in the end, but I assume that changes as you get higher up.  Anyway, the mob shielding thing is a step ahead of EQ2 and Vanguard, because the "interactive combat" involves staring at little white bars around the mob rather than a hotkey bank. And it's certainly not nearly as dumb as the "hit the same chain of 2-5 keys for specials" thing. 

I think my bottom line is that I'm not really into glomming minigames onto combat unless the minigame itself is worth playing on its own.  For me, the line-up-the-shield-bar minigame did not bring the fun.

[ajax34i]

Would it have been fun if it wasn't done with shield bars, but rather with animation and actual stances? (as in, "Oh, he's switched his shield to his other hand, I can hit from the left!!1  Quick, mash button!")

[Lightstalker]

Would it have been fun if it wasn't done with shield bars, but rather with animation and actual stances? (as in, "Oh, he's switched his shield to his other hand, I can hit from the left!!1  Quick, mash button!")

Have you thought out the mechanics of "switching his shield to the other hand" much?  I mean, it is hard to get professional football players to put the ball in the hand furthest from the tackle, much less a piece of wood strapped to your arm.

That aside, the details of the que aren't important, the depth of interaction is.  If I hit the target three times from the right and he always swaps the shield to the right then I can macro and forget about your dynamic combat because it follows a predictable and repeated sequence.  There is no mystery nor discovery after you've done it once, just tedium from the manual repitition.  All for 'better' combat, just don't make it a chore.

[Mrbloodworth]

Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

[slog]

Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

[Mrbloodworth]

Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

Good luck with that.

[slog]

Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

Good luck with that.

In the long term, I predict it will pretty much required for PvP.  With analysis, the best combos will be become known. Those folks who pre-program them will have an advantage over those that do not. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

Good luck with that.

In the long term, I predict it will pretty much required for PvP.  With analysis, the best combos will be become known. Those folks who pre-program them will have an advantage over those that do not. 

No, they will have a Achilles heel. Because more experienced PvPers will do the direct opposite and continue to rely on the opponents tells as to what to do/expect. Unlinke other games IMO, the combat, especially PvP is way more dynamic, and less of a set sequence. There are also advantages in not completing combos..ETC..

So, again, good luck with that. Its going to do more harm than good.IMO.

[Threash]

Macros won't help you in PvP or some of the more intelligent NPC's.

Of course they will.  You just have to plan out ahead of time which ones are to be used in which situation.

Good luck with that.

In the long term, I predict it will pretty much required for PvP.  With analysis, the best combos will be become known. Those folks who pre-program them will have an advantage over those that do not. 

I dont think so, the most important part of doing a combo in pvp is timing the last hit so the enemy is in range.  It doesnt help at all to macro a combo when you have no chance of actually hitting anyone.  For pve sure, macro the shit out of it, but id like to see you hit a retard hopper with a macroed combo.

[El Gallo]

I dont think so, the most important part of doing a combo in pvp is timing the last hit so the enemy is in range.  It doesnt help at all to macro a combo when you have no chance of actually hitting anyone.  For pve sure, macro the shit out of it, but id like to see you hit a retard hopper with a macroed combo.

Can you macro everything except the last hit in the combo, then activate it when the hopper is in range?

[Threash]

I dont think so, the most important part of doing a combo in pvp is timing the last hit so the enemy is in range.  It doesnt help at all to macro a combo when you have no chance of actually hitting anyone.  For pve sure, macro the shit out of it, but id like to see you hit a retard hopper with a macroed combo.

Can you macro everything except the last hit in the combo, then activate it when the hopper is in range?

I honestly don't know, but having to do one key press instead of three which still leaves the only important one up to the player isnt really much of an advantage.

[rk47]

I'd kill for a game that could make ppl not realize it's all rep grind and raids till 1.5 year sub has passed. Come on. It's money hats. So WoW failed the 1.5 year litmus test. Lulz. Gold taps in the toilet ftw.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'd kill for a game that could make ppl not realize it's all rep grind and raids till 1.5 year sub has passed. Come on. It's money hats. So WoW failed the 1.5 year litmus test. Lulz. Gold taps in the toilet ftw.

blargh im jaded and edgy blargh rage blargh


No really, we get it. Raiding, rep grinding, pvp level grinding, AA's, PP's, TT's, CiCi's pizza(mmm) this is what these games are about, time sinks. That's sort of the 'point' afterall you are paying them a monthly fee, that means they want to give you enough stuff to do that you will pay them into the next month.

Now in a mystical magical land where unicorns have sex with dolphins on top of rainbows, there might be a game that can make new content like dungeons and lands to explore so fast that you will never run out of foozles to kill or mountains to explore but that's not the fucking reality we live in.

If you don't like grinding, play a game without levels(mario maybe?) the fact is like it or not this whole genre is about time sinks, from UO to atitd to wow. Now, some time sinks you might prefer over others and so you play one game over another but let's not kid ourselves here, it's still a goddamn pointless time sink. Litmus test of 1.5 years? I'm not even sure what you mean but again, anyone who thinks that new MMO on the horizons is going to be 'different' is mentally deficient.

You may retort with "i just want a game that the grind isn't noticed" and honestly i don't think that game exists for you, i don't think any grind at all is acceptable for some peoples standards, all i can say is that this probably isn't the right genre for you.

[Numtini]

Now in a mystical magical land where unicorns have sex with dolphins on top of rainbows, there might be a game that can make new content like dungeons and lands to explore so fast that you will never run out of foozles to kill or mountains to explore but that's not the fucking reality we live in.

WOW could do it if they wanted, take EQ2s content/$ over time and apply it to WOW and you get an new expansion every 6 weeks and a new dungeon every week.

[Merusk]

This is where that conversation about large project management, software dev standards and the mythical man hour happened last time.  Can we not do that again?

[El Gallo]

I demand to have a brand-new game the size of Baldur's Gate II, except with modern graphics and the capacity to play that same game with thousands of other people, delivered to my PC every week. And I want them all to mesh into the same overarching game.  And I want it for 12.99 a month.  If you do not give this to me, I will make angry posts on the Internet about timesinks. 

[Numtini]

I got a survey in email today about why I'd quit AOC. It wasn't too bad, but it seemed to be entirely "hardware" technical--ie, does it run and how many FPS. There was virtually nothing in it about what I thought were the real issues in the game, which were the number of game systems that weren't really functioning correctly.

[Threash]

I got a survey in email today about why I'd quit AOC. It wasn't too bad, but it seemed to be entirely "hardware" technical--ie, does it run and how many FPS. There was virtually nothing in it about what I thought were the real issues in the game, which were the number of game systems that weren't really functioning correctly.

Im sure thats probably because on their previous surveys, before anyone got to experience all their broken systems, 90% of the complaints were hardware and fps related. 

[Kirth]

I thought it was 50/50 on tech vs gameplay issues. here is one question:

Give us your rating on a scale of 1-5 regarding the following gameplay issues in Age of Conan. 5 being "I had constant problems" and 1 being "I did not experience this"
    1   2   3   4   5
Class balance                   
Difficulty - too easy                   
Difficulty - too hard                   
Items                   
Lack of content                   
PvP                   
Quests                   
Tired of game / bored                   
Other                   
    

Plus you had a chance to add a block of text at the end.