So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).

[Slayerik]

Let's be fair Surlyboi, given the content of most PVP-Player's posts on the (any) official forums, "reading" is a pretty hard skill to master.

Also, who the fuck is my mentor?

Schildyboi = Surlyboi

his Mentor = You

[Surlyboi]

The 80% that never register or read are not the PVP community. They're the majority. The ones enjoying themselves in the game savoring and lusting for professionally made content. You're absolutely correct.

To put it more succinctly, that 80% are the people that aren't paying 15 bucks or more a month to be your entertainment.

And please, mentor? I'm probably old enough to be his father.

Luke....

[photek]

What's the biggest difference between the major FPSs and a pure pvp gametypes in MMOs (minigames/bgs/whatever)?  

Community.  MMOs have a much easier time creating a community and providing the tools to easily play with friends and guilds, and this is going to be something that WAR excells at (depending on the truthfullness of what they've been talking about in regards to guild/community tools).  Persistence also helps give long term goals that are not present in the FPS environment.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is one of the factors I believe is a huge contributor to striving for better achievements ; Competition between people "you know". You know that feeling of beating your buddies in Tekken ? That's the sort of satisfaction MMO PvP provide.

[schild]

You know that feeling of beating your buddies in Tekken ? That's the sort of satisfaction MMO PvP provide.

I'd walk over to my Egret 2, turn it on and prove you outright wrong. But that would be a waste of time.

Photek, everyone read your utterly ridiculous post about being fed up. You made all the reasons I find PVP-Types absolutely abhorrent perfectly crystal clear for all to see. It's not the same thing. Stop comparing them. It just makes you sound bad at things like FPS titles and now Fighting games.

[photek]

I am bad at fighting games. I am so-so at FPS games though. Cause I spend all my time playing MMOs. Also I was merely making a line between the community factor which is positive and why MMO PvP is fun, I'm sure they do the same in FPS games. Guild vs a rival guild, clans vs a rival clans. MMO communities, PvP or PvE or just the social aspect are in the abstract: LAN-party Light.

[murdoc]

When we're done with the PvP/Non-PvP debate, can we also talk about PC vs. Console, or maybe even discuss how the PS3 is overpriced again?

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Man the only thing that MMORPG PvP has in common with fighting games is balancing theory and practices. Whooping someones ass in a fighting game has no chance involved in the slightest. The calculations and stats that go into actions in a PVP "match" don't exist in fighting games outside of Guitly Gear random Super effects or Zappa Ghost summons. SO comparing Tekken to PvP is just stupid. I don't have to play this crap to get to that conclusion.

Honestly PVP is the absolute last thing I would play in  an MMORPG if I were to even try to play one, specifically because it is still to some degree crunching numbers rather than basing outcome of my inputs on my execution and timing.

[schild]

I am bad at fighting games. I am so-so at FPS games though. Cause I spend all my time playing MMOs. Also I was merely making a line between the community factor which is positive and why MMO PvP is fun, I'm sure they do the same in FPS games. Guild vs a rival guild, clans vs a rival clans. MMO communities, PvP or PvE or just the social aspect are in the abstract: LAN-party Light.

Don't try to debase my argument by admitting I was right. It's just creepy. Of course you suck at fighting games and FPS titles. YOU WANT TO BE NUMBAH WAN!

[photek]

Nobody suggested anything remotely like that. I was discussing the SOCIAL aspects and playing with people you know. Communities and that stuff.

[photek]

Don't try to debase my argument by admitting I was right. It's just creepy. Of course you suck at fighting games and FPS titles. YOU WANT TO BE NUMBAH WAN!

Thanks for noticing, but I already am. In WoW for now. PvE. And PvP. We will see if AoC is worth it and Warhammer when it time comes. Don't know why it makes me or anyone who play like this an asshole with the exception of sounding so fucking arrogant while saying it.

[Surlyboi]

When we're done with the PvP/Non-PvP debate, can we also talk about PC vs. Console, or maybe even discuss how the PS3 is overpriced again?

I'd rather talk about how hueg xbawks is.

[sam, an eggplant]

Put my vote in for arguing about abortion, politics, religion in schools, evolution, immigration, or OS/2 vs. Mac.

[schild]

Don't try to debase my argument by admitting I was right. It's just creepy. Of course you suck at fighting games and FPS titles. YOU WANT TO BE NUMBAH WAN!

Thanks for noticing, but I already am. In WoW for now. PvE. And PvP. We will see if AoC is worth it and Warhammer when it time comes. Don't know why it makes me or anyone who play like this an asshole with the exception of sounding so fucking arrogant while saying it.

lol

[Slayerik]

You know there is an MMO that is 99% skill based, and I am being serious here, it is called Subspace.

Go play a few hundred hours of that game and come holler at me about MMOs being skilless :)

You see, it is ok to like different kinds of games and be into FFA PVP/item loot and other crazy wild shit. And its ok to like fighting scripted events. And its possible to like console fighting games, FPSes, and MMOs. WTF are we arguing about now anyways....someone get me back in line I have 3 more hours of work to kill.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Even mentioning the social aspects of PvP vs Fighting games is two completely different animals. Sitting at home and playign this trash over the innertubes is radically different than traveling to play new people or having actual teams that play together WITH each other playign another actual TEAM of players. These are two completely different kinds of competitions with completely different kinds of communities. 

[schild]

Subspace is less of an MMOG than Guild Wars.

Oh, it's OK to like whatever you like. But until devs stop being retarded about balances for PVP folks that hurt and change the PVE game, I'm not ok with you loud motherfuckers post-bombing forums with your QQ and nerfwhine. You can "say" PVP-Types adapt. But it's a crock of shit. Like the guy that called me a butthurt assassin in that thread about my patch notes. He knows zero about me, and jumped to that conclusion because I think an archetype based on hiding should be the only archetype with hiding. Color me shocked.

[slog]

What I don't get is why PvP- players even care about PvP+.  From what I've seen, most MMO's are offering both.

[photek]

What I don't get is why PvP- players even care about PvP+.  From what I've seen, most MMO's are offering both.

Cause you can't stick it in the pooper in one without it coming out of the mouth through another.

[sam, an eggplant]

What I don't get is why PvP- players even care about PvP+.  From what I've seen, most MMO's are offering both.

It's fairly difficult to balance both with the same ruleset. Abilities that are entirely appropriate and fun in PvE become incredibly overpowered in PvP but not vice versa. This leads to PvE being repeatedly nerfed to serve PvP, which pisses off PvE players.

The alternative is to give up and have different rulesets for PvE and PvP. Everquest did that, and it worked, but remember that nobody PvP'd in EQ.

[Slayerik]

Luckily, it was billed as a PVP game and is a large part of the supposed Endgame....so, sorry PvE guys....

[cevik]

The difference between FPS pvp and MMOG pvp has nothing to do with skill (FPS pvp is mainly a function of map memorization, MMOG pvp is mainly a function of min/maxing).  The real difference is that there is simply no consequences to losing in an FPS.  The worst case scenario in FPS pvp is that you are ridiculed for sucking, and even then it's typically a mouse click away to change your name and "start over".

MMOG pvp typically has more consequences for loss.  Even if there are no in game mechanics for losing, you still have much less anonymity in a mmog, and thus are much more likely to feel long term shame when you suck.

Consequences result in more enjoyment for some, and they also tend to make people who are not risk takers much more adverse to participate.  Thus you have some people, like Slayerik, who enjoy mmog pvp, and you have some people, like schild, who are terrified to engage in mmog pvp.

[slog]

What I don't get is why PvP- players even care about PvP+.  From what I've seen, most MMO's are offering both.

It's fairly difficult to balance both with the same ruleset. Abilities that are entirely appropriate and fun in PvE become incredibly overpowered in PvP but not vice versa. This leads to PvE being repeatedly nerfed to serve PvP, which pisses off PvE players.

The alternative is to give up and have different rulesets for PvE and PvP. Everquest did that, and it worked, but remember that nobody PvP'd in EQ.

Wow tries to handle this by seperate PvP and PvE skill trees that don't overlap.  For the most part it works pretty well.

The other though I had is this: 

If the far majority of people just want PvE and don't want PvP, then where are all the PvE only games in development?

[Draegan]

I don't suggest reading this thread after lunch.  Ruins the digestion process.

Ugh.

[photek]

Wow tries to handle this by seperate PvP and PvE skill trees that don't overlap.  For the most part it works pretty well.

The other though I had is this: 

If the far majority of people just want PvE and don't want PvP, then where are all the PvE only games in development?

Non-existent almost. Developers have to feed the crowds with both parts if they want the game to be successful. "If you don't follow WoW's recipe you will fail" seems to be the general assumption.

[photek]

I don't suggest reading this thread after lunch.  Ruins the digestion process.

Ugh.

Just different kind of people with different opinions. Without arguments and debates, what is the point of a forum ?

[amiable]

Subspace is less of an MMOG than Guild Wars.

Oh, it's OK to like whatever you like. But until devs stop being retarded about balances for PVP folks that hurt and change the PVE game, I'm not ok with you loud motherfuckers post-bombing forums with your QQ and nerfwhine. You can "say" PVP-Types adapt. But it's a crock of shit. Like the guy that called me a butthurt assassin in that thread about my patch notes. He knows zero about me, and jumped to that conclusion because I think an archetype based on hiding should be the only archetype with hiding. Color me shocked.

I think I would go along the lines that most official forum posters in general, be they PvE or PvP, are annoying ashats.  Why do folks get so upset about PvP balance changes?  Because 90% of the time PvP is the most fun and entertaining part of the game.  Until PvE moves away from "kill x  foozles and bring me y foozle snouts" it is no wonder that PvPers are the most vocal part of the community.

When catass 40 man guilds were the shiznit in WoW they posted all the time and were annoying as hell too.  But they posted because their portion of the game (Raiding) was at least somewhat interesting (for some, I in general would prefer a sharp stick in my eye).

I mean, how do PvP changes significantly hurt the PvE game?  Do foozles die slower?  Does it make the foozle turn pink?  Does it really matter?

[Threash]

I don't suggest reading this thread after lunch.  Ruins the digestion process.

Ugh.

Just different kind of people with different opinions. Without arguments and debates, what is the point of a forum ?

Cat pictures.  Which is what im about to unleash on this thread if people dont stop being cockweasels.

[photek]

I think I would go along the lines that most official forum posters in general, be they PvE or PvP, are annoying ashats.  Why do folks get so upset about PvP balance changes?  Because 90% of the time PvP is the most fun and entertaining part of the game.  Until PvE moves away from "kill x  foozles and bring me y foozle snouts" it is no wonder that PvPers are the most vocal part of the community.

When catass 40 man guilds were the shiznit in WoW they posted all the time and were annoying as hell too.  But they posted because their portion of the game (Raiding) was at least somewhat interesting (for some, I in general would prefer a sharp stick in my eye).

I mean, how do PvP changes significantly hurt the PvE game?  Do foozles die slower?  Does it make the foozle turn pink?  Does it really matter?

Problem is, in PVE there are some classes that are on a very delicate balance board in terms of their functionality. If you have followed WoW the last years you would know most changes are a direct reflection of PvP action. Warlock changes, Rogue changes, Druid changes, Shaman changes... Most of them. Problem is when a class functionality is reduced from primary role to secondary role and people start claiming "I didn't roll to do Y, I rolled to do X" or the efficiency of several abilities is reduced that have direct benefits on PvE. One example can be when AoE went from unlimited targets to 10. I still believe they should implement two different "buffs" based on whether you are in a raid dungeon / PvE instance or are PvPing. This simple change could even be visual and appreciated like aura / form / stance / buff and would apply automatically based upon your location. Just doing that, you could have talents like Frostbolt do "25% more damage in PvE stancewhatever, but no slowing effect" to make mages main DPS class for example. Or whatever they wished that was more in line of proper balance.

[Mrbloodworth]

The difference between FPS pvp and MMOG pvp has nothing to do with skill (FPS pvp is mainly a function of map memorization, MMOG pvp is mainly a function of min/maxing).  The real difference is that there is simply no consequences to losing in an FPS.  The worst case scenario in FPS pvp is that you are ridiculed for sucking, and even then it's typically a mouse click away to change your name and "start over".

MMOG pvp typically has more consequences for loss.  Even if there are no in game mechanics for losing, you still have much less anonymity in a mmog, and thus are much more likely to feel long term shame when you suck.

Consequences result in more enjoyment for some, and they also tend to make people who are not risk takers much more adverse to participate.  Thus you have some people, like Slayerik, who enjoy mmog pvp, and you have some people, like schild, who are terrified to engage in mmog pvp.

I would argue that with the current run of FPS games, this is becoming less of the case. A lot of them are incorporating RPG like elements in the form of unlocks and ranks, And then there is planetside.

[cevik]

I would argue that with the current run of FPS games, this is becoming less of the case.

But that's a recent development (like within the last yearish).  And it's certainly nothing like the investment that you have in a mmog.

And I also suspect that it's a development that will both turn people like schild away from fps games and increase the number of players playing fps games at the same time. 

[schild]

Adding RPG elements in terms of unlocks only makes me play FPS titles more. ^_^

[IainC]

And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind <snip>

He's in a minority of the people that you are friends with (who co-incidentally tend to have the same preferences as you which is why you are friends with them), for WoW players in general (or pretty much any AAA MMO you care to mention) he's in the middle of the bell curve.

Sorry for going back a few pages but I've just got back from Dreamhack and I'm catching up on forums.

[Surlyboi]

I don't suggest reading this thread after lunch.  Ruins the digestion process.

Ugh.

Just different kind of people with different opinions. Without arguments and debates, what is the point of a forum ?

Cat pictures.  Which is what im about to unleash on this thread if people dont stop being cockweasels.

Bring it, bitch.

[Sir T]

Easy kids. I have naked pics of David Hasselhoff with puppies and I'm not afraid to use them.

(Now thats PVP with consequences  )

[cevik]

Adding RPG elements in terms of unlocks only makes me play FPS titles more. ^_^

See schild, you aren't as much of a pussy as you thought you were.

I just can't wait until you actually try mmog pvp and we have to listen to endless rant after endless rant about how mmog pvp is the GREATEST THING EVAR!!!!.