So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).

[slog]

so you're opinion on whats best for PVP overall is somewhat biased.

My opinion for what's best for PVPs is exactly right though. Quarantine all the PVPers to their own little dens of iniquity. Which companies do. And then do SEPERATE balance for them and let them stay in their little isolated world of whining and imba. It's the best for everyone. The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority, and on top of that, make changes that effects people who don't even give a shit about PVP until they've maxed out. I'm all for sieges and such guys, don't misunderstand me, but PVP has it's place. And it's place is at the back of the bus where it can't disturb the majority.

Yes, that was a bad taste black joke. I also think PVPers shouldn't have a right to vote. There's a huge difference between folks who want to enjoy the game and the professional content and deal with PVP for the endgame and the types who want it busted out at the beginning prior to 10% of the leveling curve. Unfortunately, that difference is about 4,000 decibels on any forum.

I know you are a WOW hater, but you don't get to ignore the amount of people that engage in PvP in it.

[schild]

I know you are a WOW hater, but you don't get to ignore the amount of people that engage in PvP in it.

It provides some of the best gear in the game and is the only thing to do once you max out and run out of raids or get bored of doing the same ones all the time, right?

And this is all meta to the other thread, I guarantee that if you weed out all the uberguild catasses, the majority of those folks are still there for social reasons and battlegrounds and such make the chat room aspect seem like less of a waste of time.

Loot will make people do stupid things. So will friends.

[Slayerik]

Any forum except this one, PVE guys!

Unfortunately, that difference is about 4,000 decibels on any forum.

[schild]

Any forum except this one, PVE guys!

Unfortunately, that difference is about 4,000 decibels on any forum.

I meant official forums, you predictable bastard. And yea, I can't let developers who read f13 think you matter.

[Slayerik]

That's cool, I don't carry around any dillusions of grandeur.

[Mrbloodworth]

you guys have a secret love don't you? 

[Falconeer]

Now, did Shadowbane have the best PVP within the MMOG genre? Who gives a flying fuck.

Hey. Lantyssa said: "If only someone could get PvP done right it would be teh awesome! *lament*".

And I replied that Shadowbane is PvP done right. Is Shadowbane a great game? Maybe not. Is the Shadowbane PvP model close to perfection? Hell yes. That was my point.
If it sounded like I said "Shadowbane is the best game ever" than I worded it badly.

Schild, do you agree that the most recent Shadowbane PvP model is the best possible for a PvP MMORPG (not an hybrid)? I am sure you don't. Then, and I would really like to know, what would you change of that model, or how would you like the "perfect" PvP MMOrpg?


Ninja EDIT: changed PvP Game with PvP MMORPG. My bad.

[slog]

I know you are a WOW hater, but you don't get to ignore the amount of people that engage in PvP in it.

It provides some of the best gear in the game and is the only thing to do once you max out and run out of raids or get bored of doing the same ones all the time, right?

And this is all meta to the other thread, I guarantee that if you weed out all the uberguild catasses, the majority of those folks are still there for social reasons and battlegrounds and such make the chat room aspect seem like less of a waste of time.

Loot will make people do stupid things. So will friends.

People will PvP where there is a reward. I'm as shocked as you are.

[schild]

Falconeer, it doesn't matter if the PVP was done right or wrong. The game was bad.

People will PvP where there is a reward. I'm as shocked as you are.

People will roll around in shit for a reward. ^_^

[Draegan]

The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority.

How can you tell me this with such assurance?  If you take a look at WOW for instance, all the best PVE guilds are on PVP servers, there is one counter example to your point.

[Brogarn]

you guys have a secret love don't you? 

Ya, I was going to post something similar this morning but never got around to it. Get a room!

[Merusk]

The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority.

How can you tell me this with such assurance?  If you take a look at WOW for instance, all the best PVE guilds are on PVP servers, there is one counter example to your point.

They're PVE guilds on a PVP server.
  1) They're doing it wrong
  2) They did it because of the 'no pve to pvp transfers!' policy.  It's a way of enforcing elitism on their part.  It's the "you must be this hardcore to ride" sign. They admit as much.  
 3) PvP servers in WoW are about pointless.  The world TM/ Crossroads/ Stranglethorn 'raids' still happen, only on the PVP servers the lowbies get to be targets as much as the NPCs and the 70s still ignore it.  

and finally, as all the 'leet hardcore pvpers' will tell you.  WoW PVP "doesn't count."  

[Brogarn]

The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority.

How can you tell me this with such assurance?  If you take a look at WOW for instance, all the best PVE guilds are on PVP servers, there is one counter example to your point.

Or just say "DAoC". I mean, the entire purpose of that game was RvR. Unless you're specifying the 'dreds where it was FFA, then I agree. But anyone that played that game knew that the end game was PvP and I didn't know of a single person who never participated in it.

[Threash]

I would be willing to bet theres a shit load more chance people would pvp without any loot involved than raid or craft without loot involved.  Getting loot is what this games are about, saying people are only pvping in wow because of the gear is pretty disingenous.  MMORPGs = leveling/crafting/raiding/pvp, only one of those is done mostly for the pure fun of it.

[Brogarn]

MMORPGs = leveling/crafting/raiding/pvp, only one of those is done mostly for the pure fun of it.

Don't forget socializing. 

*ducks and runs for the exit*

[Mrbloodworth]

We could always just say that MMO's are about different things for different people, and be done with it. 

[Surlyboi]

I would be willing to bet theres a shit load more chance people would pvp without any loot involved than raid or craft without loot involved.  Getting loot is what this games are about, saying people are only pvping in wow because of the gear is pretty disingenous.  MMORPGs = leveling/crafting/raiding/pvp, only one of those is done mostly for the pure fun of it.

Which one of those would that be? (And yeah don't forget socializing, good call Brogarn)

I almost never pvped for fun in UO. I pvped because most players were such easy marks and the ones that weren't were just a matter of time before I cracked them and found their weakness and then buried them with it. Me in my asshole phase when steamrolling punks in Quake got stale. Fun isn't really the word I'd use for it after the first couple of times. Then again, I was a sadistic, vindictive bastard then too.

I've had a helluva lot more fun in games since then like EQ, EQ2, SWG, AOC, etc, by simply exploring. And my best overall MMO experience, bar-none, was simply running through Velious and shooting the shit with my old guild in EQ.

Loot? Fuck that noise. And I wholeheartedly agree with Schild. I've always been of the opinion that the hardcore MMO pvpers are the people that couldn't cut it in FPSes.

[cevik]

Loot? Fuck that noise. And I wholeheartedly agree with Schild. I've always been of the opinion that the hardcore MMO pvpers are the people that couldn't cut it in FPSes.

I'm just curious, but what about those of us who regularly PvP in mmogs AND play FPSes?

[Slayerik]

Seriously, don't bother. Schildyboi and his Mentor will just sweep you up in some huge generalization.

[amiable]

Loot will make people do stupid things. So will friends.

Pre-BC the loot for PvP was terrible, but it still had a much higher percentage of participation by the general public then Raiding, even on PvE servers.  There are still active twink guilds for AB and WSG in all brackets.  If PvP truly were a headache niche, why are all of the new MMORPGs coming out including a fairly major PvP component?

[Merusk]

Loot will make people do stupid things. So will friends.

Pre-BC the loot for PvP was terrible, but it still had a much higher percentage of participation by the general public then Raiding, even on PvE servers.  There are still active twink guilds for AB and WSG in all brackets.  If PvP truly were a headache niche, why are all of the new MMORPGs coming out including a fairly major PvP component?

The same reason they have Hit Point bars that are red, use "Diku" mechanics and have some stupid implementation of "I go invisible in a field! hur hur!"

The folks I know who PVP'd prior to BC did it for two reasons.  1) Boredom 2) To show how uber they were with the title system.  There was PVP avilable prior to the titles/ honor being introduced, but nobody on the PvE servers did it.  As SOON as that switch was flipped it was the SS/ TM boogie for hours on end.

It's also no coincidence that the PvE Grand Marshalls/ High Warlords on my server don't PvP anymore.  There's nothing in it for them now.

[slog]

Seriously, don't bother. Schildyboi and his Mentor will just sweep you up in some huge generalization.

Indeed.  I'm somewhat surprised the website is so anti PvP.

[photek]

Loot? Fuck that noise. And I wholeheartedly agree with Schild. I've always been of the opinion that the hardcore MMO pvpers are the people that couldn't cut it in FPSes.

Eh ? You are wrong on so many levels that the amount of wrong is deeper than Dante's inferno. Hardcore MMO pvpers at its roots were roleplayers, tabletop players, card players and people who found it far more fun to challenge other likeminded nerds than playing versus "dungeonmasters". FPSers are players who mostly the concept of pray and spray to be fun. And think it involves some sort of skill. Here is a recipe to be a good FPS gamer : Excellent internet connection, know how to use the weapons, good mouse with perfectly adjusted sensitivity for your playstyle, good mousemat, reflexes and some luck. Now go shoot. To be a skilled MMO player you need lots and lots of time, micromanagement, full knowledge of all game mechanics, classes / talent speccs, predetermination, reflexes, timing full control and overview over the battle and your co players and lots of other shit I shouldnt have to mention. Then comes the loot, gear and other factors. And as always some luck due to game mechanics parry / resist / block functionality.

In an MMO a skilled player can take out multiple equal opponents just for being a superior player. That my friend takes that list and puts it to a real fucking challenge. Show me the depth of an FPS that does something like this :

http://www.warcraftmovies.com/download.php?id=39506&mirror=2 [EDIT: And this is just WoW, the game that takes "least" amount of skill compared to other PvP games]

Also, most hardcore MMO PvPers think that FPS games has zero depth and individuality about them. Everyone are the same, there is no way to advance your character nor feel like it is a personal character. We are a legion of roleplayers on a perpetual acid trip.

[schild]

There's a difference between anti-pvp and pro-fun. I really hate that I read and post in a shitload of threads and end up repeating shit in most of them because X person didn't read X thread.

In short, getting caught up in PVP that is unplanned is for an FPS. Maybe building a city that can't be attacked and then going to an area dedicated to PVP itself is more fun to people. And by people, I mean everyone that doesn't look back at UO and say "Man, those were good times. /sniff /cry /retread /whimper" But hey, I'm up for yet another person using WoW as an example of how PVP has gone mainstream. let's do that that again. It's just one of those things that holds so much water I never get tired of it.

FPSers are players who mostly the concept of pray and spray to be fun. And think it involves some sort of skill. Here is a recipe to be a good FPS gamer : Excellent internet connection, know how to use the weapons, good mouse with perfectly adjusted sensitivity for your playstyle, good mousemat, reflexes and some luck. Now go shoot. To be a skilled MMO player you need lots and lots of time, micromanagement, full knowledge of all game mechanics, classes / talent speccs, predetermination, reflexes, timing full control and overview over the battle and your co players and lots of other shit I shouldnt have to mention. Then comes the loot, gear and other factors. And as always some luck due to game mechanics parry / resist / block functionality.

I don't even know why I respond to trollbait from Slayerik and slog (when it might not even be trollbait) when we have our very own live deluded PVP retard over here making my points for me.

Photek. You're being a retard. Pray and spray. Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahohohohohohoh hahaaahahaahahaahaa. Oh man. That's good. Did you learn that term from your days back in Compton while sporting a gun... sideways? Or maybe you went with the upside down pinky on the trigger. I'm no paragon of FPS games man, but that is just stupid. Also, you're delusional. Here's something I've had to say far too often lately: Get the fuck out of here with that shit. FoH is ---------------------> thataway.

Also, most hardcore MMO PvPers think that FPS games has zero depth and individuality about them.

And once again, no one gives a fuck about what hardcore MMOG PvPers think. More importantly, those that for whatever reason have deluded themselves into listening to the loudest minority need to get with the program. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. Etc. Etc.

[Merusk]

Seriously, don't bother. Schildyboi and his Mentor will just sweep you up in some huge generalization.

Indeed.  I'm somewhat surprised the website is so anti PvP.

It's not.  Some of us just see PvP in DIKU settings as both pointless and non-competitive.  If I want PVP I play FPS' or shit like Magic/ RTS games where the amount of time I spend on my ass grinding gear doesn't automatically determine 90% of the outcomes.

[Surlyboi]

Ok, so you've narrowed down what many would define as skill to, "Excellent internet connection, know how to use the weapons, good mouse with perfectly adjusted sensitivity for your playstyle, good mousemat, reflexes and some luck. Now go shoot."

So there's no skill involved, eh?

I could say the same about your definition of a an MMO pvper. The only skill you've listed there, really, is the ability to read. And as to your point about individuality, there's about as much individuality to a flavor-of-the-month, min-maxing, "I built this toon to pwn" MMO player as there is to the goober goth kids sitting at the mall in their slightly different Hot Topic outfits.

Seriously, don't bother. Schildyboi and his Mentor will just sweep you up in some huge generalization.

Pot. Kettle. Generalization.

That said, I'm not anti-pvp. I just don't think it's the end-all-be-all of MMOs you frothy kill-em-alltards think it is.

[schild]

Let's be fair Surlyboi, given the content of most PVP-Player's posts on the (any) official forums, "reading" is a pretty hard skill to master.

Also, who the fuck is my mentor?

[photek]

Photek. You're being a retard. Pray and spray. Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahohohohohohoh hahaaahahaahahaahaa. Oh man. That's good. Did you learn that term from your days back in Compton while sporting a gun... sideways? Or maybe you went with the upside down pinky on the trigger. I'm no paragon of FPS games man, but that is just stupid. Also, you're delusional. Here's something I've had to say far too often lately: Get the fuck out of here with that shit. FoH is ---------------------> thataway.

Okay so I exaggerated with the FPS shit, but still its still a dumb statement to say "PVPers are people who didn't cut it in FPS games". We had no interest in FPS games to begin with, vice versa. In reality both genres are totally different and require different type of skill, some emphasize more than the other. In the end we are all beaten in the depth department by RTS gamers.

[Merusk]

You missed "tons of time invested in gear grinding" as the other skill, Surly.

He even said it

To be a skilled MMO player you need lots and lots of time,

CATASS2VICTORY!

[photek]

Ok, so you've narrowed down what many would define as skill to, "Excellent internet connection, know how to use the weapons, good mouse with perfectly adjusted sensitivity for your playstyle, good mousemat, reflexes and some luck. Now go shoot."

So there's no skill involved, eh?

Of course there is, thats what you playstyle is. Be it the dude who kills 5 people with grenades or the guy who pulls 5 headshots in 2 seconds. Its all different type of skill. I just feel like someone is trying to shove a dildo up my ass everytime they say "MMO takes no skill". I get a bit cranky.

[schild]

There's a reason I included emotionally and then said they could probably acquire the skills by catassing it. But emotionally, PVPers don't have a mindset to be OK with people LITERALLY being better than them.

[slog]

Let's be fair Surlyboi, given the content of most PVP-Player's posts on the (any) official forums, "reading" is a pretty hard skill to master.

Also, who the fuck is my mentor?

Sweeping generalization based on message boards that 80% of the players never even register for, never mind read.

[Slayerik]

Funny part is everyone that has been trying the FFA PvP servers in AoC go "It's not so bad over here, in fact....it's fun!"

Not my fault you want to remove a fun part of the game, especially since from early on FC explains how it fits in a brutal world. Don't go calling everyone that enjoys it kill-em-tards, they just look for different things from their game.

Some people like that awkward moment when you see a red name...Is he gonna attack? Should I attack first? Should I run? Time to hide? Does he have friends nearby? Is his guild KOS? Fuck it, time to buff and we'll let him make the move.

If that kinda of encounter isn't your thing, than fine. I have been told around here many times some people don't like that kind of tension, and that's fair enough. It sure makes the world seem more alive to me, and so many more random and fun things can happen out of a single gank than an entire night of pure PvE. And yes, skill does matter. Please lets not spell it out again. PVP is here. If you don't like it, don't hop on the server. I think we can at least agree on that one.

[schild]

The 80% that never register or read are not the PVP community. They're the majority. The ones enjoying themselves in the game savoring and lusting for professionally made content. You're absolutely correct.

[KallDrexx]

What's the biggest difference between the major FPSs and a pure pvp gametypes in MMOs (minigames/bgs/whatever)?  

Community.  MMOs have a much easier time creating a community and providing the tools to easily play with friends and guilds, and this is going to be something that WAR excells at (depending on the truthfullness of what they've been talking about in regards to guild/community tools).  Persistence also helps give long term goals that are not present in the FPS environment.

Steam Community helps for FPSs, but it is in the disadvantage that it is a generic tool used for many many games.