Diablo III Wild Speculation and Rumor Mongering Abounds

[Hawkbit]

What cash shop are you referring to?  I missed info on a  straight-up cash shop, I've only heard about the two AHs (one for ingame gold, other for real dollars). 

[Rasix]

Well, the real-money AH I'm referring to as the "cash shop".  Misapplying the terminology, I suppose.

[eldaec]

It is a shop where you buy things with cash.

How is that not a cash shop?

Also, if this is not a MMOG, why is SWTOR or GW a MMOG?

[ezrast]

Because they have persistent worlds, hold large numbers of people in the same area, and can't be completed in single player.

[eldaec]

Persistent in the sense of always there, always the same and always unchanging, yes, but so is Diablo. If you mean in the sense of a single world space, that certainly isn't true for GW, and from what has been shown seems mostly untrue for SWTOR.

Large numbers of people? Only in the lobbies (again I'm guessing mostly for SWTOR), same as Diablo which just uses a alternate lobby interface.

Can't be completed single player? Yes they can. Though you obviously can't pvp single player.

[ezrast]

If you don't distinguish between a lobby and the game world than every game with hosted multiplayer is an MMO.

[eldaec]

Personally - for me the thing that makes Diablo a mmog is that the 'game' continues from instance to instance and that allows you to interact with a massive number of people.

I find it hard to take a simple 3D lobby scene like in GW as a meaningful way to distinguish the game and I really can't see any distinction between GW and Diablo except the lobby presentation.

If Diablo included avatars wandering about in the lobby would that make it a mmog?

[ezrast]

I feel like MMOs in general are designed around the expectation that players will interact with the masses as part of regular gameplay. I know the current trend is away from requiring any interaction, but even in SWtOR I'm guessing it'll be pretty rare to find someone who *never* PUGs (just for group quests or whatever) or uses the auction house. Whereas in Diablo it strikes me as perfectly normal to play exclusively single player or with a consistent group.

A graphical lobby with dozens of avatars milling around does not an MMO make, but it reinforces this idea of interaction between players as a part of the game proper.

Do you consider Call of Duty an MMO? If not, what distinguishes it from Diablo?

[Tebonas]

You people know that the first M stands for Massively?

So unless Diablo offers a mass of people to interact with each other on the same server at the same time, Diablo is just a Multiplayer Online Game.

[Kirth]

If Diablo included avatars wandering about in the lobby would that make it a mmog?

If I can pick herbs at the same time, maybe.

[Malakili]

You people know that the first M stands for Massively?

So unless Diablo offers a mass of people to interact with each other on the same server at the same time, Diablo is just a Multiplayer Online Game.

You can interact via the auction house and via chat rooms, but I agree with what you say anyway.  In the end though, its just more evidence that the distinction is becoming more and more blurred.

[Tebonas]

I agree that it is little more than semantics, but Chat can't be one of the deciding factors. Because that is something Steam offers me with every game I play via their client.

[eldaec]

I haven't played CoD so I may have it wrong, but my understanding was that you basically unlock weapons by playing but aside from that games are self contained matches that don't carryover?

The unlocks are a grey area, but what makes GW/Dialog a mmog imo is that your character's story develops from match to match, and so that one character interacts with a massive number of other players through other matches and trading. AFAIK that doesn't happen in CoD.

I do see practically everything moving at least into the CoD grey area as time goes on, because mmog elements have lots of benefits for publishers, making games sticker, presenting RMT opportunities, and trampling consumer rights of first sale.

[Merusk]

If the SP campaign is very short or the difficulty levels beyond normal REQUIRE a group (not just suggested) then I think you'd be in full-on MMO territory.

[Malakili]

I haven't played CoD so I may have it wrong, but my understanding was that you basically unlock weapons by playing but aside from that games are self contained matches that don't carryover?

The unlocks are a grey area, but what makes GW/Dialog a mmog imo is that your character's story develops from match to match, and so that one character interacts with a massive number of other players through other matches and trading. AFAIK that doesn't happen in CoD.

I do see practically everything moving at least into the CoD grey area as time goes on, because mmog elements have lots of benefits for publishers, making games sticker, presenting RMT opportunities, and trampling consumer rights of first sale.

I think world persistence rather than character persistence could be a more useful tool for separation now that I think about it. 

[Lantyssa]

Heh, although the auction house and cash shop bring it a bit closer.  Still, for a lot of people this isn't going to be a much of a change from how they played D1 or D2.  Small groups with friends, small groups  perhaps with an occasional stranger, and plenty of single player.

How is that different from WoW or any other MMO?

[Malakili]

Heh, although the auction house and cash shop bring it a bit closer.  Still, for a lot of people this isn't going to be a much of a change from how they played D1 or D2.  Small groups with friends, small groups  perhaps with an occasional stranger, and plenty of single player.

How is that different from WoW or any other MMO?

Ostensibly because you can end up running into someone while playing solo.  The line is certainly thin.

[Rasix]

The line is thin, but it's still there.  How thin will be determined when people actually start playing this or we get more information on the various modes and how they operate.

If there was a greater level of world persistence in relation to your character and there was no ability to keep others out of your game; then, yah, I'd say we crossed the threshold.  However, turning this game into a MMO wouldn't be that difficult.  It would just take a new server with some set rules.  Kind of like how some folks made limited MMO-likes with the first NWN game.

[ezrast]

I think world persistence rather than character persistence could be a more useful tool for separation now that I think about it.

I agree, and what that means is that Diablo-style games aren't becoming more like MMOs, but that MMORPGs are becoming less like MMOs. As far as I know Arena.net avoids even calling Guild Wars an MMO. Which makes sense to me since it does put quite a strain on any reasonable definition of "persistent world" that I can think of.

[Lantyssa]

True.  The Guild Wars world actually changes...

[ezrast]

It's been too long since I've played it then. How so?

[rk47]

Heh, although the auction house and cash shop bring it a bit closer.  Still, for a lot of people this isn't going to be a much of a change from how they played D1 or D2.  Small groups with friends, small groups  perhaps with an occasional stranger, and plenty of single player.

How is that different from WoW or any other MMO?

In WoW, you can't really block away people from killing your mobs or even PK you in PvP server. In Diablo, you simply set a password and stop people from coming in if you want. Basically generating an instance of Goldshire just to get quests done quicker. Or something like that.

[Lantyssa]

It's been too long since I've played it then. How so?

Mostly mob composition, but there are gates, bridges, and some terrain features which change up depending upon where you are in the story.  This is especially true of the Guild Wars Beyond content.

It's the tutorial, but the Old Ascalon to Post-Searing change is pretty impressive since the differences involve several large zones yet the locations within them are all recognizable.

[Rendakor]

It is a shop where you buy things with cash.

How is that not a cash shop?

Also, if this is not a MMOG, why is SWTOR or GW a MMOG?

No. A cash shop is where players purchase items from the developers with cash. What we have in D3 is sanctioned RMT, where players buy and sell virtual goods/currency with real money. It's semantics but we should at least use correct terms.

[caladein]

Just as importantly is that the items aren't created out of thin air.  If you want to buy something from either AH, it has to have dropped for someone.

All (versus most) of the money going to the developers isn't a strict requirement as it would still consider a curated player-designed item store with unlimited supply to be a "cash shop".

[Paelos]

From a purely economic standpoint, I'll be interested to see what the real value impact of this decision happens to be. There are accounting and legal questions that this raises that I think are hard to wrap my mind around. How do you classify the income? What's the CGS? Can you put an inherent value on the virtual goods?

Could I theorectially set up a legal business in order to move this market? If so, what are the taxable implications of that income in the US? Frankly, what about the state taxes if any? My mind boggles.

[apocrypha]

Seems unavoidable that gambling laws will apply, although I'd guess there'll have to be test cases to establish that.

On a different note, anyone notice this (from http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/events/diablo3-announcement/index.html#beta:d3-interview):

How are you approaching balancing the game’s overall difficulty?
Kevin Martens: When it comes down to balancing the actual numbers, there is an expected amount of damage output that players should be able to sustain based on their level and gear. There is no absolute benchmark though, as skillful players will be able to do more damage with speed, precision, and advanced attack combos, while less experienced players will generally do less damage with more straight-forward attacks. The expected damage is a starting point to balance from. Balance must be maintained for both players types, and everyone in between, which can be tricky. Ultimately, it’s going to take the game's harder difficulty modes -- Hell and Inferno -- to challenge the limits of the best Diablo III players.

4th difficulty level, Inferno!

[Paelos]

Inferno level better drop a magical disco ball.

[Lantyssa]

That could be read as saying there are still only three modes.  Maybe they cut Nightmare as a name.

[Malakili]

Yeah, have we confirmed nightmare?

[Paelos]

That could be read as saying there are still only three modes.  Maybe they cut Nightmare as a name.

Maybe nightmare is the new normal?

Maybe there's five modes!

It goes, Meh, Normal, Nightmare, Hell, Inferno.

[Furiously]

They should require you to PUG in inferno.

[Paelos]

They should require you to PUG in inferno.

I wonder if there will be NPC pets so you can have your flaming pug dog follow you around for that achievement?

[Sheepherder]

They should require you to PUG in inferno.

"Through me the way is to the city dolent;
  Through me the way is to eternal dole;
  Through me the way among the people lost.

Justice incited my sublime Creator;
  Created me divine Omnipotence,
  The highest Wisdom and the primal Love.

Before me there were no created things,
  Only eterne, and I eternal last.
  All hope abandon, ye who enter in!"

These words in sombre colour I beheld
  Written upon the summit of a gate;
  Whence I: "Their sense is, Master, hard to me!"

And he to me, as one experienced:
  "Here all suspicion needs must be abandoned,
  All cowardice must needs be here extinct.

We to the place have come, where I have told thee
  Thou shalt behold the people dolorous
  Who have foregone the good of intellect."

[schild]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDYjljdje-g

Has that been posted? Amazing.