Deus Ex 3. I shit you not.

[Teleku]

Not to derail too much, but I have to second this. Here in the US we're used to lethargic growth. I've seen a city like Barcelona transform huge sections from derelict harbor areas into booming yuppy neighborhoods with sky rises and modern shopping centers in a matter of a few years.

I'm not sure why we're slow here in the US but I suspect its in large part because we have a 'fairer' system where every piddling city councilman has a vote that can be influenced by commercial interests that cock-block urban development for decades and decades.

The one thing I thought was hilarious was the jet-fueled Osprey. That thing is an albatross around the military's neck now and lo and behold, its still there, in the future!

It's "Slow" here in the US because we already developed.  We went through our massive boom/build stages that completely transformed the landscape everywhere in the first half of the century, and then in some specific economically successful cities in the second half.  The places you see this sort of development happening in are in places that were undeveloped until more recently.

Also, why do you think the Osprey is so bad?  It was a giant boondogle because of how long it took to develop safely, but since it finally went through, I hear its had a very good service record, and is quite useful.  Am I wrong on that?

And yes, this whole style looks very very GITS.  Specifically, GITS: Innocence:
http://www.dreamworks.com/trailers/gits2/gits2_trlr2_qt_480.mov

[Vaiti]

I think he was saying that as in "This trailer made me want to watch Blade Runner, not play this new Deus Ex game"

[HaemishM]

I think he was saying that as in "This trailer made me want to watch Blade Runner, not play this new Deus Ex game"

Yes.

[Sheepherder]

Also, why do you think the Osprey is so bad?  It was a giant boondogle because of how long it took to develop safely, but since it finally went through, I hear its had a very good service record, and is quite useful.  Am I wrong on that?

Yes.

But in his report, Rivolo noted that up to 90% of the helicopters lost in the Vietnam War were in their final approach to landing when they were hit by enemy ground fire. About half of those were able to autorotate safely to the ground, "thereby saving the crews," Rivolo wrote. "Such events in V-22 would all be fatal."

...

If power is lost when a V-22 is flying like a helicopter below 1,600 ft. (490 m), he said, emergency landings "are not likely to be survivable."

[Lucas]

...Damn it.

[tgr]

motherffffffuuuuuu

I hate you.

[Ard]

Hah, I already had it installed.   

[Teleku]

Also, why do you think the Osprey is so bad?  It was a giant boondogle because of how long it took to develop safely, but since it finally went through, I hear its had a very good service record, and is quite useful.  Am I wrong on that?

Yes.

But in his report, Rivolo noted that up to 90% of the helicopters lost in the Vietnam War were in their final approach to landing when they were hit by enemy ground fire. About half of those were able to autorotate safely to the ground, "thereby saving the crews," Rivolo wrote. "Such events in V-22 would all be fatal."

...

If power is lost when a V-22 is flying like a helicopter below 1,600 ft. (490 m), he said, emergency landings "are not likely to be survivable."

Err, no.  That article is listing all the past problems it had (true) and is worried about the then upcoming first combat deployment to Iraq in 2007.  Time hasn't been kind to that article, since as I mentioned, the Osprey has had a very good performance rate in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It's been flown directly into combat situations in both places, through sand storms/dusty conditions, and pretty much all the situations the article doomcasts it entering.  In all that, they've only lost one Osprey, and that was when one was flying to low in a sand storm and the pilot flew into the side of a hill he didn't see.  Again, I haven't seen or heard anything about the current combat deployments to put it in a negative light, which is what I was asking about (but hey, I could be missing something). 

We all know the whole process of its creation was a giant clusterfuck, but so far, it actually seems to be working out well.

[Kitsune]

Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are the crown jewels of FPS-RPGs in my book.  Fun gameplay, lots of exploration, good stories, great characters.  Deus Ex 2 and Bioshock both missed the marks at keeping up with their parents, but Bioshock was still excellent and Deus Ex 2 was pretty good once you applied the patches to clean up the user interface and fix up the low-res textures.  Deus Ex 3... I'm feeling really iffy about the scenario that I'm seeing in the trailers, both the setting and the story.  But I'm willing to plunk down the money to try it out as long as it keeps a few key traits:

1. Fairly non-linear levels that allow lots of roaming and hidden stuff-finding.
2. Lots of different solutions to overcome a given obstacle.
3. The ability to be awesome/a huge douche in game decisions that actually impact the story.

I can live without health packs and skill levels, as long as those three things are maintained.

[Sheepherder]

Err, no.  That article is listing all the past problems it had (true) and is worried about the then upcoming first combat deployment to Iraq in 2007.  Time hasn't been kind to that article, since as I mentioned, the Osprey has had a very good performance rate in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It's been flown directly into combat situations in both places, through sand storms/dusty conditions, and pretty much all the situations the article doomcasts it entering.  In all that, they've only lost one Osprey, and that was when one was flying to low in a sand storm and the pilot flew into the side of a hill he didn't see.  Again, I haven't seen or heard anything about the current combat deployments to put it in a negative light, which is what I was asking about (but hey, I could be missing something). 

We all know the whole process of its creation was a giant clusterfuck, but so far, it actually seems to be working out well.

It's been working out well because for it to fail one would actually have to be put in a position where it's actively being shot at.  Or tested properly.

“Aware of such maneuvering often required in the stress of combat, in late 2002 one military observer specifically recommended adding to V-22 testing three specific evasive maneuvers that included “maximum rate course reversals and landing zone aborts.” This should have been nothing new; as he formally cited, such maneuvers had long been an integral part of accepted and official rotorcraft doctrine – “consistent with the definition of ‘aggressive agility’ as required for utility rotorcraft in ADS-33E, Performance Specification, handling Qualities Requirements for Military Rotorcraft, 21 Mar 2000.”153 NAVAIR agreed that these maneuvers should be tested, but they still had not done so more than a year later “because the V-22 rotor control system repeatedly exceeded rotor disk flapping limits154 while approaching the requested conditions.”155 As V-22 Red-Ribbon Panel Coordinator Col. Harry Dunn explained, “Whereas virtually all helicopter rotors have a limit of 28 to 30 degree blade flapping capability, the V-22 propellers are limited to 10 degrees to avoid damage to the rotor, rotor swash plates, and rotor hubs…[E]xceeding these limits can result in rotor failure or breakage, leading to aircraft control failures.”

"Sorry sir, we can't test those maneuvers, the rotors might explode."

[Engels]

V22 and crowds. Not a good match  

CNN report on the incident. People injured, etc

[Teleku]

It's been working out well because for it to fail one would actually have to be put in a position where it's actively being shot at.  Or tested properly.

It's been used all over Afghanistan in hostile conditions, and has taken direct part in a major offensive operation dropping thousands of Marines into Taliban territory.  They've been using it to transports troops/supplies in and out of remote area's.  I'll be amazed if it hasn't been shot at constantly like every other aircraft doing these missions in Afghanistan.  You literally can't put it into a harsher combat testing environment than making it operate in Afghanistan.

We'll see how the picture looks a few years down the road, and it might not be so rosy.  But again, so far, it seems to be performing fine.  Biggest complaints I've seen is that it's high maintenance. 

[Sheepherder]

I'll be amazed if it hasn't been shot at constantly like every other aircraft doing these missions in Afghanistan.  You literally can't put it into a harsher combat testing environment than making it operate in Afghanistan.

On 13 April 2007, the U.S. Marine Corps announced that it would be sending ten V-22 aircraft to Iraq, the Osprey's first combat deployment.

According to the Marines, the 10 MV-22Bs of medium tiltrotor squadron VMM-263 have taken over the full range of assault support missions from the Sikorsky CH-53Ds previously operated in Anbar province by HMH-363.

These missions include battlefield circulation - moving officers and soldiers around the area of operations - governance missions carrying Iraqi official, pre-planned raids and roving aeroscout operations, as well as personnel recovery and casualty evacuation.

A New York Times article in April 2007 described Anbar as "undergoing a surprising transformation. Violence is ebbing in many areas, shops and schools are reopening, police forces are growing." It continued, "Yet for all the indications of a heartening turnaround in Anbar, the situation, as it appeared during more than a week spent with American troops in Ramadi and Falluja in early April, is at best uneasy and fragile,", citing a lack of municipal services, weak local government, and failure to stop all the insurgent attacks. Still, "There are some people who would say we've won the war out here. I'm cautiously optimistic as we're going forward."

Marine Maj. Gen. John Kelly said yesterday he put the Osprey into the fight when he led the Marines of Multi National Force-West and it proved its worth in western Iraq. “Because it zips around the way it does, it was doing a lot more VIP lifting than I thought it should be doing,"

The MV-22 saw its first offensive combat mission, Operation Cobra's Anger on 4 December 2009. Ospreys assisted in inserting 1,000 Marines and 150 Afghan troops into the Now Zad Valley of Helmand Province in southern Afghanistan to disrupt communication and supply lines of the Taliban.

There are 12 of them in Afghanistan, they've been there for half a year.

[Teleku]

Hmm, fair enough.  I misread somewhere and thought they had been deployed to Afghanistan in 2008 instead of 2009, so my bad there.  Though you did do some selective quoting, as the general you quoted saying it flew lots of VIP's immediately went on to say because of that he pushed it into doing dirty work (and an article linked from that one says it was sent on combat recon missions in Iraq).

So time will tell I guess.  But again, as I said in the original comment that spawned this horrible derail, in its 3 years of desert operational history (and half year in "real" combat zone deployment) it hasn't suffered any of the technical glitches or problems foretold.  But I guess we'll have to see how it does in Afghanistan after another year or two, since your right, it hasn't been there very long.

[Sheepherder]

There's nothing particularly wrong with the way it works.  The problem is that if seriously damaged below 1600 ft. everyone inside it is fucked.

[tgr]

Wow is this related to deus ex.

[Teleku]

Ok, I think we got it out of our systems.   

I reinstalled Deus Ex (Steam GOTY edition).  The colors seem really wonky and off.  Anybody else having this problem (I'm using Windows 7 with a year old ATI card)?

[Rasix]

Ok, I think we got it out of our systems.   

I reinstalled Deus Ex (Steam GOTY edition).  The colors seem really wonky and off.  Anybody else having this problem (I'm using Windows 7 with a year old ATI card)?

Looks like normal Deus Ex on mine.  But I'm still on XP. 

[Engels]

I installed it on Steam and it worked just fine for me. Running Win7 64 with an ATI 5870.

[eldaec]

Ok, I think we got it out of our systems.   

I reinstalled Deus Ex (Steam GOTY edition).  The colors seem really wonky and off.  Anybody else having this problem (I'm using Windows 7 with a year old ATI card)?

Your problem is that the colours in Deus Ex are wonky and off as designed. Partly because, 10 years old, partly because of beret pretensions by the designer.

Personally I thought it looked like shit 10 years ago - but you ignore it after a while. And at least it isn't brown.

[Teleku]

Ah, your probably right.  The colors in the opening dialog sequence looked fine, it was only when I was in the low light Statue of Liberty area's that it looked off.  Guess they just didn't handle the black coloring well.

Though personally I thought it looked amazing 10 years ago.  :P

[Sheepherder]

Different monitor?

The average TN LCD doesn't handle things skewed to the black colour range well.

[Nonentity]

Eurogamer dropped three articles about this today.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/deus-ex-human-revolution-preview
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/deus-ex-fan-service-article
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/eidos-montreals-jean-francois-dugas-interview

[UnSub]

Oh fuck, it's a prequel.

[Paelos]

Oh fuck, it's a prequel.

Wow they are taking the shitty design decisions and just cranking them up to 11 aren't they?

[HaemishM]

Well, a sequel does have to top its antecedent, right? If the second is shitty, how much shittier can we make it?

Infinity. 

[Teleku]

I don't know, I'm pretty enthused about this.  By all the interviews, they seem to at least understand why the first game was good, and want to bring that back in an updated form.  I'm actually happy its a prequel since 1.)  The sequel sucked and they can ignore all the fucking stupid shit it did 2.)  They don't have to try to decide what the user picked at the end of either game (something DE2 really failed at) and go their own way.

I just started playing through the first game again (because of this thread.  That picture somebody posted earlier is oh so right...).  One of the things I had forgotten about is how there were people who were basically cyborgs with artificial limbs, then J.C. Denton comes along with augmentation technology with makes them obsolete, and this causes friction between the two.  We are playing as one of the cyborgs who existed in the years before the tech for J.C. came about, so there is plenty of precedent already laid down from the first game.  The graphics look amazing as well.

What exactly is it you guys don't like about what you've seen of this game so far (serious question)?

[tgr]

What exactly is it you guys don't like about what you've seen of this game so far (serious question)?

Personally I'm somewhat positive to this game, however I've been burned so many times the past few years with shoddy gameplay, sucky story, consoleitis out the wazoo and drm that likes to fuck you in the ass, that I'm not going to be enthusiastic about this game until it does release and we know more about how it'll play, and what the limitations for us actually playing the game will be. It sucks that I feel it has to be this way, but there you go.

[Paelos]

By all the interviews, they seem to at least understand why the first game was good, and want to bring that back in an updated form.

"We want to remove the RPG aspect of the fighting and make it more straightforward, like you see in games such as Rainbow Six."

I think you were misinformed. If they are completely removing all RPG aspects from the game, they missed the boat on what made Deus Ex good.

[Teleku]

And that one sentence you posted goes against everything I've read in the currently released articles posted above.  They still have experience points, though they've melded skills in with augmentation, so everything is based around augmentation (which does make sense and seems like it could work well).  They removed the horrible accuracy if you don't have the skill for the gun, which sucks, but they are basically doing the inverse of the way it was before.  You start out with everything at decent accuracy, then you upgrade things further as you go to extreme awesomeness.

There seems to still be plenty of RPG aspects to this game from everything mentioned in those articles.  Further more, they say they are concentrating on the primary thing that made Deus Ex awesome (which wasn't the RPG aspects), which is designing the levels so they're are many many different ways to go through each level depending on the players build and whims.  That's what I'm most interested in, and it's the failure to keep that sort of game play which caused most people to hate Deus Ex 2.

[Paelos]

I agree that the different gameplay was what made it the best, but it was the ability to tweak your character to that type of gameplay that took it over the top. We'll see, but I'm not optimistic about anything getting compared to Rainbow Six, even offhand.

[Teleku]

Hey, Rainbow Six was awesome!

But yeah, fair enough.  If I'm reading it right, however, I think when he made that comment he was only referring to speeding up the actual combat a bit.  So now instead of "I don't have skill for a pistol, I can't hit somebody standing 10 feet in front of me" you can use weapons accurately from the get go.  Everything else is still moddable though, so you should still have all the customization options.  If you want to take a hacker route, bump up your hacking augs.  Want to be a ninja?  Bump up your melee weapon and jumping augs.  Want to be a killing machine?  Bump up your heavy weapons and armor augs.  Etc.

Of course, they could easily fuck it all up, so I shouldn't get my hopes up, but they are least saying the things I want to hear in those interviews.

[rk47]

Removing the weapons training would be step in the right direction IMO. I've had it with Pseudo RP-FPS forcing me into a role of a super-armed agent with the dexterity of a 70 year old man when wielding even a pistol.

[Hoax]

Removing the weapons training would be step in the right direction IMO. I've had it with Pseudo RP-FPS forcing me into a role of a super-armed agent with the dexterity of a 70 year old man when wielding even a pistol.

Seriously, cone of fire when you are standing still or even worse crouching/prone is a tired as fuck stupid mechanic.  If you make the combat fluid and well paced I'll miss some shots on my own without your help devs, thanks.  I will settle for recoil effects but it feels like every game is making it harder to hit what you point at these days.

[Vision]

I never played the first one, and have a moderate track record of liking ancient games far past their decades.

Should I play the first Deus Ex regardless?