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Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979282 times)
Threash
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Reply #700 on: August 07, 2013, 10:47:45 AM

I was all frothy about this and then remembered that I have never had BiS in any MMO I have ever played so it doesn't really matter if it's not going to be accessible to me.

BiS was easy in GW2 (before ascended items) since it only took level 80 exotics and it was (very) easy to get them  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Even ascended items are easy now that you can get them with laurels and wvwvw badges.

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Ingmar
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Reply #701 on: August 07, 2013, 10:50:22 AM

They're not easy in a time sense, they're annoyingly grindy. 30 days of dailies for one item, oh boy.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Paelos
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Reply #702 on: August 07, 2013, 12:24:19 PM

That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either. 
Finding 39 people you can tolerate, who can be consistently available for 3 hours 1-3 days a week is not easy.

Nobody who has ever run a 40 man raid in anything would ever say it's easy. It was a nightmare, with moments of levity. The actual content was about 25% of the overall time you spent running a raid that size. The rest was strats, groups, rosters, late slots, fill-ins, loot systems, overflow, waiting, afk, breaks, explanations, and drinking heavily to ignore the pain.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
murdoc
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Reply #703 on: August 07, 2013, 12:50:16 PM

I was all frothy about this and then remembered that I have never had BiS in any MMO I have ever played so it doesn't really matter if it's not going to be accessible to me.

BiS was easy in GW2 (before ascended items) since it only took level 80 exotics and it was (very) easy to get them  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Oh wait, that's true. I was decked out in all exotics when Ascended items hit.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Sjofn
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Reply #704 on: August 07, 2013, 03:33:56 PM

Wildstar is going to have unique 40 man raids. unique 20 man raids. and solo instances that progress the story/lore of the game. 40 man raids are there for the uber challenge.

Sure, that's their plan. But that is one of those "I will believe it when I see it" things. It's not so much "what will be there at release" but "how will they spend their resources afterwards."

God Save the Horn Players
Yoru
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Reply #705 on: August 08, 2013, 02:33:11 AM

So, in the XP/quest progress changes, I'm split. I like the idea that they fill up the quest progress bar via XP earned, but I don't like that they're still tinkering around with splitting XP among ungrouped players based on damage contributed.

I've been very lightly dabbling with GW2 after getting a key last month, and I do like that you get full XP for simple participation in a fight, regardless of damage done. It's fair, it encourages cooperation, and the rules are simple to understand.

Either way, I'll still probably give this a shot, if only to see what "settler" content looks like. I'm expecting something like SEED's Bob The Builder grind.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #706 on: August 08, 2013, 06:25:12 AM

Quote
"I hate raiding, I'm out"
"All content should be solo, I'm out"
"Gear based pvp, I'm out"
"Pvp stats, I'm out"
"Subscription fees, I'm out"

You people should fucking KNOW better than to expect anything different from this of all games, no excuse.  So could we all stop acting like petulant 20-somethings when it comes to this 'cause the diku-mmo format is not changing anytime soon.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Paelos
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Reply #707 on: August 08, 2013, 07:28:41 AM

It shouldn't be REGRESSING.

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Typhon
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Reply #708 on: August 08, 2013, 07:34:07 AM

Quote
"We've had this conversation before, I'm out of this thread"

You people should fucking KNOW that we've had this conversation before bitches.

Sincerely,
Internet Tough Guy, but secretly I care! xxoo, Lakov


Nothing new under the sun, I'm out of this spefic universe.

Despondently,
typhon

Nothing new in this fraction of the 10^500 multiverses, I'm out of this global universal cluster.

with Transcendant Euni,
Glibordax
Nebu
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Reply #709 on: August 08, 2013, 07:36:14 AM

So could we all stop acting like petulant 20-somethings when it comes to this 'fill-in-the-blank' is not changing anytime soon.

I need to copy this.  It could easily be used in 50 other threads here not related to MMOs.


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #710 on: August 08, 2013, 07:42:11 AM

It shouldn't be REGRESSING.

One could argue this but considering wow has started hemorrhaging subs they have obviously gone too far the other direction.  Personally 40man raids is a silly idea and one I'm surprised they are going with.  The height of wow popularity was the 25man era but to expect the concept of raiding to be excluded is delusional and silly for anyone on these forums.

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Nebu
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Reply #711 on: August 08, 2013, 07:46:17 AM

What's wrong with 10 man raids?  Why is 25 magically better?  

Serious question.

SWTOR had 8 man raids and they weren't all that actively done, though that could be as much implementation as anything.  Rift had 10 and 25 man raids and very few people participated in the 25 man. 

Anything larger than 10 and you're outright admitting that you are catering to some small percentage of the playerbase.  Is it worth the resources? 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 07:47:59 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Paelos
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Reply #712 on: August 08, 2013, 07:47:22 AM

You'll be answers about "mechanics" but for the most part that's bullshit. The mechanics of a raid fight all center around 5 or so major components, done differently in each one.

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Pennilenko
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Reply #713 on: August 08, 2013, 07:48:17 AM

 Popcorn

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
Nebu
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Reply #714 on: August 08, 2013, 07:49:12 AM

You'll be answers about "mechanics" but for the most part that's bullshit. The mechanics of a raid fight all center around 5 or so major components, done differently in each one.

I agree.  It's nothing more than the devs throwing a bone to the power guilds so they can laud something over the playerbase for some brief period of time.  

What is the point?  Seems like a monumental waste of resources. 

Make the game for the masses if you're shooting for mass appeal.  Playing both sides seems naive.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Typhon
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Reply #715 on: August 08, 2013, 07:50:36 AM

You'll be answers about "mechanics" but for the most part that's bullshit. The mechanics of a raid fight all center around 5 or so major components, done differently in each one.

I agree.  It's nothing more than the devs throwing a bone to the power guilds so they can laud something over the playerbase for some brief period of time.  

What is the point?  Seems like a monumental waste of resources. 

Make the game for the masses if you're shooting for mass appeal.  Playing both sides seems naive.

 Heart Heart Heart!!!
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #716 on: August 08, 2013, 08:19:23 AM

 Facepalm

I didn't say 25man raids were the most popular thing ever. I said that wow was most popular in the 25man era and specifically lich king which DID also have ten mans but 25 was still the high end for those who wanted it.  Fuck I'm not even making a judgement of which is better, just that at the time wow was at the top of it's game so of course if you are going to copy you should aim for that.

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Typhon
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Reply #717 on: August 08, 2013, 08:28:07 AM

I can't speak for anyone else, but I looked at your assertion that raiding is what made the game popular, and lack of raiding is what kills games and immediately discarded it as clueless.

WoW is dying mostly because their recent updates have been uninspired, repetitious and bland.  The fact that it's been running for nine years isn't helping it.

But I have to say, in a mean spirited way, that I do enjoy your conclusions.

Edit: recently needed to be recent
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 09:54:10 AM by Typhon »
Hoax
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Reply #718 on: August 08, 2013, 09:26:02 AM

I've always enjoyed how the niche of a niche set of a gamers (f13) have always thought they know for sure what made WoW's population decline (things they didn't like happened). That's not proof, no game stays mega popular forever and the context matters: the age of the playerbase, the age of the game, the competition, especially in terms of price.

Its entirely possible Blizz rightfully focused on the features and gameplay that people who wouldn't quit WoW out of boredom because they had played it 2, 4, 6 yrs already wanted. I'm skeptical as hell of this "if WoW had gone this direction they wouldn't have lost as many subs" assertion.

But let me say, you all turning on Wildstar is great because this game is boring as shit looking. Vanilla WoW in 2014! Oh joy exactly what we need. No shit this is regression but it was regression before they announced anything about 25 man raiding.

If War Plots are a really great system I'll be pissed because I really don't want there to be any reason to touch this bland ass game.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 09:28:04 AM by Hoax »

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #719 on: August 08, 2013, 10:15:39 AM

Where did I say it was raiding alone that made wow popular? Do you even read the comments before you start spewing shit onto your keyboard?

WOTLK was the height of wow's popularity, copy that.  That is not a hard statement to understand.

Saying that raiding is the sole reason to play mmo's is idiotic. To say raiding had NO part in wow's popularity would be similarly naive of not only wow but of the entire genre. 

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Typhon
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Reply #720 on: August 08, 2013, 10:37:38 AM

WoW isn't' static.  Taking a point in time looses sight of everything that had led up to their peak in popularity during the WOTLK era.  Saying "I said that wow was most popular in the 25man era and specifically lich king which DID also have ten mans but 25 was still the high end for those who wanted it", IMPLIES that you thought there was causality between raiding and raid sizes and the high point in popularity as primary-cause

Whether you meant that or not.

I was responding to the implication.  Yes, I do actually think prior to typing.  If you had thought a bit more before posting, you might have added something like, "granted, the trend from more difficult/exclusive dungeons and raids toward more accessible dungeons/raids and the addition of other alternate systems of game play probably had significant impact on popularity as well, as shown by the dramatic decrease in popularity during the Cataclysm release"... but you didn't.

I'm not saying that raiding isn't popular.  I'm saying that loot is a core mechanism of these games - gaining levels and obtaining loot is desireable by every player who plays these games.  Choosing one type of gameplay to get the best loot is arbitrary and not needed.  Players will choose the type of gameplay that they find entertaining by themselves, and there is no need to reward certain types of gameplay over others - in fact it alienates players who don't enjoy that type of gameplay.
Hoax
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Reply #721 on: August 08, 2013, 10:41:16 AM

Where did I say it was raiding alone that made wow popular? Do you even read the comments before you start spewing shit onto your keyboard?

If I was quoting you I would quote you.

Many posters here have for years claimed that WoW is losing subs because Blizz is going in the wrong direction. This being f13 the wrong direction is usually something to do with non solo content or content that requires more than 5 people it varies a little from poster to poster but the anger at raiding and catass behaviors and uber guilds is pretty common around here.

My point is WoW lost and will continue to lose subs because its an ancient game that looks and feels rather dated. Its competition is now legions of f2p games while it still costs a monthly sub. And almost nobody in the mmo sweet spot age-wise which is probably say 12-22 is still in that age range which means that many people move on for simple age/life reasons and are not replaced by new young players because WoW hasn't been the new hotness for kids in a long long time.

Yet ITT and others I see yourself and others equating the height of WoW's popularity had everything to do with what type of progression content they were releasing at that exact moment. I doubt that very much. A factor? Of course. But thinking we can gain insight into what gamers like because old WoW was more popular than new WoW seems a bit asinine.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Typhon
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Reply #722 on: August 08, 2013, 10:42:30 AM

He was talking to me Hoax, you just got in the way.
Hoax
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Reply #723 on: August 08, 2013, 10:43:53 AM

Then he's especially retarded, I posted an hour after you did and he posted 45min after me.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #724 on: August 08, 2013, 11:00:01 AM

To Hoax: Some of us work, so sorry I was responding later... rolleyes

To Typhon:  

Quote
Personally 40man raids is a silly idea and one I'm surprised they are going with.  The height of wow popularity was the 25man era

What I am inferring is that if carbine should copy anything it should be this time capsule in wow's history.  That you are taking this as some ringing endorsement for 25man raiding or that I am advocating raiding a the center of the game is insane.  I am simply using raid sizes in the era of wotlk because carbine seems to be going backwards to the beginning of wow when they had 40mans.

Of course wow was fluid and ever changing but that does not mean there wasn't a curve of popularity and making your game based on either end of the curve is foolish.  Again this is not just about raiding, stop being pedantic.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 11:37:46 AM by Lakov_Sanite »

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Ingmar
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Reply #725 on: August 08, 2013, 11:28:09 AM

What's wrong with 10 man raids?  Why is 25 magically better?  

Serious question.

SWTOR had 8 man raids and they weren't all that actively done, though that could be as much implementation as anything.  Rift had 10 and 25 man raids and very few people participated in the 25 man. 

Anything larger than 10 and you're outright admitting that you are catering to some small percentage of the playerbase.  Is it worth the resources? 


SWTOR has 8 and 16 actually. I think it matches your intuition in that the 8s are more popular.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Nebu
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Reply #726 on: August 08, 2013, 11:39:39 AM

SWTOR has 8 and 16 actually. I think it matches your intuition in that the 8s are more popular.

Or my brain blocks the memory of anything > 10.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Fabricated
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Reply #727 on: August 08, 2013, 11:48:46 AM

Just for the record I never had a problem with raiding, in WoW or MMOs in general. I raided my ass off in TBC and especially WoTLK. I completed every normal mode raid in 10 and 25-man when its was relevant, and a good chunk of the heroic stuff I bothered with.

They lost me when they put a "you must be this good to even walk in the door" sign on it, and 80% of my friends weren't good enough. I don't like farmville, I don't live on solo content even though I appreciate it. I liked small group dungeon content, and I actually really liked raiding when it was hard enough to require some figuring out but wasn't a gigantic dickpunching festival. WotLK hit it right on the fucking head, even counting ToTC which wasn't so much stupidly easy as it was incredibly uninspired. TBC had Kara and Zul'Aman; the rest of the raids were shit. Cataclysm I quit after I couldn't get more than 2 bosses in with guild groups, cross-guild groups, pugs, or filling in on a guild run with another guild that was running their same crew that cleared 10man heroic ICC before the buffs even hit. LFR is nice that you don't feel locked out of ever even seeing the content or getting the loot, but running with 24 random shitbirds or generously, 20 random shitbirds if you queue with friends just isn't the same thing.

It's not the type of content, it's the barriers to entry that fucking get my goat. 40-man raids are mostly a bad idea because they're a mess visually and to organize, but personally I could have fun if they were tuned to be moderately hard for a mostly organized group that wanted to be able to actually hold a conversation during the fight instead of a 40-man Autism Convention. If I could have a cross-guild calendar, post a signup for a friday or saturday night, and just roll into the place with a group of 39 other people while drinking and shooting the shit on vent, maybe getting a couple bosses a night or wiping 4-6 times per non-farm boss (with major endbosses taking maybe 2-3 weeks of work before downing) before a clear I'd raid 40-mans in a second but that's not the reality.

tl;dr: 40-mans are trouble in terms of organization/design but the real issue to me is that they're pre-emptively saying the large group content is pretty much only for the aspergers crowd.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Phred
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Reply #728 on: August 08, 2013, 03:06:02 PM

Agree on the second point, but Cryptic not wanting a grind? I don't see it. The leveling curve was EQ-like arduous for a game that otherwise had very console-y like sensibilities. I still feel they were sitting on a goldmine if they could have just gotten out of the whole "this is a MMO and therefore we must have a guaranteed 15 months of subs" convention. Man, they coulda just put in tradeable costume recustomization players woulda RMT'd the shit out of years before inter-player "RMT" became corporate-sponsored "F2P". We'd all be talking about how CoH started it all instead of EQ1.

My only solace is that in another of the infinite timestreams in the multiverse, this did happen  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Ya you'd think they'd have woken up when the grind killed subs about 2 months in.
Kageru
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Reply #729 on: August 08, 2013, 03:22:57 PM


I remember doing 80 person raids in EQ, I can't remember why that seemed a fun thing to be doing.

WoTLK is a good example, challenging raids especially if you went for the hardcore achievements but inclusive enough that lots of people raided and made some progress. But lots of the raiders want the main path of progression to be a narrow gate most can only look through to see the shinies arrayed there-in because that strokes their e-peen. Why developers consider going with that model is the mystery.

Content that only a small fraction of your player base will consume is a dumb investment.

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Phred
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Reply #730 on: August 08, 2013, 03:23:40 PM


tl;dr: 40-mans are trouble in terms of organization/design but the real issue to me is that they're pre-emptively saying the large group content is pretty much only for the aspergers crowd.

I think WoW hit on the perfect concept with hard modes and the basic level being easy but they caved to the whiners on the forums who had never done hard modes but still complained the basic raids were too easy.

Plus one to kagaru on the content statement.
Phred
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Reply #731 on: August 08, 2013, 11:29:27 PM


The more interesting question is whether it's a good idea for the game as a whole. Having a raid progression sucks up a lot of cash and development time which means starving other parts of the game and probably needing a subscription fee to fund it.

If every game that has switched to F2P has had revenues go up why would this one require a subscription? I think you're reaching here as I hear they already announced it to be f2p.
Kageru
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Reply #732 on: August 09, 2013, 06:52:37 AM

Last I saw they were very cagily commenting about a "hybrid" funding model. Have they actually come out and said it's f2p or was that a very complex way of saying it has a cash shop?

Most triple-A MMO's that have switched to f2p have had revenue go up because they were subscription games in a death spiral at that point. And I'm pretty sure suits are still looking at WoW and dreaming of that being them. To be the dominant raiding title you need pretty regular slabs of high quality raid content which needs a pretty decently sized team, and that's expensive.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 06:57:37 AM by Kageru »

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
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Draegan
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Reply #733 on: August 09, 2013, 08:12:09 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thought this fits in with the conversation and I agree with it.
Fabricated
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Reply #734 on: August 09, 2013, 08:37:50 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thought this fits in with the conversation and I agree with it.
Oh good, another WoW commentary video from a British twat lamenting that bad people can beat stuff and therefore it doesn't mean anything to them or anyone, and stating that this is why WoW is losing subs like it's a fact.

Edit: My favorite quote is at the end.

"Is it better if a new player walks away saying, 'yeah I never got to that raid but I hear it was awesome', and instead says, 'Oh yeah the new raid? I did it, it was pretty alright I guess, had some cool special effects'. Is that better?"

Yeah, it actually is, cunt. Fucking autists. Jesus.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 08:43:25 AM by Fabricated »

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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