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Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979304 times)
Draegan
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Reply #665 on: August 06, 2013, 12:29:03 PM

Most of you here are super casual nancies, but there is a demand for harder raiding encounters. I've been saying this for a while now, but this game is WOW Vanilla++. I also find it hilarious that, given all the content that is supposedly in this game, that you can't get the best gear in PVE that makes you quit.

They said that PVE and PVP gear will be separate, so who knows if we should believe them or not, but take that for what it worth.

You guys cry too much anyway. I won't be doing 40 man raids, but I'll be playing the game because it looks fun.

Because I've done this too many times before.  There is always a point in these games where having the best gear is an obvious advantage.  I need look no further than, "World PvE events".  The try hard is going to be the one that can survive the big breath (or whatever) while the scrubs choke it down immediately.  The try hard is going to be higher in the damage done, healing done, etc, and the rich get richer.  In a game fundamentally about gear, isolating the best gear to a small section of your player base is not a design I care for and it will color my perception of all my playtime.

Did that.  Not interested.  I don't in any way resent those that like this type of game-play - there is plenty of competition out there, I'm happy for anyone that gets a game that they like.

Why I care about this game is because I really like the marketing they put in for house building (not actually having seen the housing, I only have the marketing to go on).  I like public-style quests in addition to solo questing and dungeons.  I just don't care for raids.  Too much time, too many self-absorbed personalities, too much drama.

[Edit: making for less incomprehensible sentences and why I cared about this game]

Like you said, don't play the game and ignore it from here on out. They are unabashedly recreating WOW 1.0 with modern polish and QoL stuff. If you hated WOW 1.0 because you couldn't complete BWL or only a small portion of the population was even able to see Naxx, you will hate Wildstar. If you are not content running 5 mans, heroic 5 mans, solo-lore instances, housing stuff, battlegrounds and arenas and then eventually running 20 and 40 man raids when they get tuned down, then it's not the game for you?

Seems kind of silly to hate on a game because a small aspect of it is shut off to you due to your own limitations (skill, desire, patience, ability to find a guild). I personally won't be doing 40 mans because I don't have the time, desire, or patience to run a raid schedule. That doesn't detract from the game to me, and I'll have a lot of fun doing the other stuff.

And you know what? That's ok. There are tons of MMOs coming out these days that cater to a lot of different people, I'm sure you can find one. Games these days don't need to cater to every single aspect of social or antisocial gamer out there.

Anyway, TLDR: This isn't the game you are looking for?
Ghambit
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Reply #666 on: August 06, 2013, 12:54:03 PM

90% of the people in here were clamoring for WoW In Space once they'd had their fill of WoW and moved on.  Now we get it and there's hate because of raiding.     Facepalm

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Nebu
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Reply #667 on: August 06, 2013, 01:00:25 PM

90% of the people in here were clamoring for WoW In Space once they'd had their fill of WoW and moved on.  Now we get it and there's hate because of raiding.     Facepalm

Nobody... not a single soul here thought WoW was without its flaws.  We just differed in opinion as to what those flaws were.

For me it was large scale raids and gear dependent PvP/crap PvP balance.  The 10 man stuff helped that a great deal for me.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 01:02:02 PM by Nebu »

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Nebu
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Reply #668 on: August 06, 2013, 01:11:36 PM

And you know what? That's ok. There are tons of MMOs coming out these days that cater to a lot of different people, I'm sure you can find one. Games these days don't need to cater to every single aspect of social or antisocial gamer out there.

I think that you take for granted the information you have available by running a fan site.  

I can't think of many new MMO's on the Horizon that cater to my play style.  Matter of fact, the number of quality MMO's on the horizon for release in the next year seems rather small.  If you have a suggestion of something I should watch, I'd be grateful.   

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Fordel
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Reply #669 on: August 06, 2013, 02:25:14 PM

Does the raid gear effect any PvP or the content cycle?

Vanilla raiding only became a bitch for me when it was ALL the content. "So I've been running Shcolomance for awhile now guys, maybe something new? No? oh ok..." That and the obvious PvP issues it caused.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Draegan
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Reply #670 on: August 06, 2013, 02:32:47 PM

I'm not sure what your tastes are exactly. What kind of pvp do you like? Gear based? Level based? Open world? Instanced? Diku or action or hotbar?
Fordel
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Reply #671 on: August 06, 2013, 02:35:51 PM

I'm a big fan of stat caps. Once I start losing because the other dude killed a dragon and got a fancy sword, I'm out.

I'm also out once it becomes solely about composition. Like once I need to tell my friends and myself "we all gotta reroll or its gonna suck", fuck it.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Draegan
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Reply #672 on: August 06, 2013, 04:30:46 PM

That's why PVP in almost every MMORPG is stupid once you put in levels. In my opinion, any game that asks me to level a character for 80+ hours before I can be on equal footing is bad. Which is why I enjoy playing LOL or FPSs for that stuff.
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Reply #673 on: August 06, 2013, 04:59:50 PM

Oh has the wailing finally begun? Delicious.

Honest question, if they said you can get the best gear in the game but it is much more rare and will take much longer outside of 40-man raid content would this still be a problem? Like if you could grind out something that would upgrade your gear to as good or 95% as good but it takes quite some time compared to getting the drop off the 40-man content would you be happy or mad that the top tier raider types are getting it faster?

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Threash
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Reply #674 on: August 06, 2013, 05:10:34 PM

They should just put raid only stats on the gear so not everyone feels they must have it.  If the raid gear had the same stats as your gear +10% damage to raid mobs, would that still bother people who don't want to raid?

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Ingmar
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Reply #675 on: August 06, 2013, 05:11:48 PM

No, but then raiders get all twisted over it; see Radiance in LOTRO.  why so serious?

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Typhon
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Reply #676 on: August 06, 2013, 05:43:53 PM

Everyone should be doing the things they find fun.  If the devs have to give players extra incentive to do a certain activity, I have to wonder why they have that activity.  If all activities reward the player with the same progression items (i.e. loot) and no one wants to do raids because of that, it implies that people just really want the best rewards.  Why do games feel like they need to social engineer players into pre-set groups?

That said, I recognize that organizing 40 people is more difficult then organizing 5 people, and some recognition of overcoming that challenge is warranted.  Thus the suggestion that raiders get special cosmetic items.  I would suggest that the special item is the same high-level loot, but with a serial number and a better graphic.  Team Fortress 2 and LoL business model runs on cosmetic items, suggesting that MMOs can't have raid based upon cosmetic items seems to imply to me that few people really want to run raids.
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Reply #677 on: August 06, 2013, 05:50:05 PM

Everyone should be doing the things they find fun.  If the devs have to give players extra incentive to do a certain activity, I have to wonder why they have that activity.  If all activities reward the player with the same progression items (i.e. loot) and no one wants to do raids because of that, it implies that people just really want the best rewards.  Why do games feel like they need to social engineer players into pre-set groups?

That said, I recognize that organizing 40 people is more difficult then organizing 5 people, and some recognition of overcoming that challenge is warranted.  Thus the suggestion that raiders get special cosmetic items.  I would suggest that the special item is the same high-level loot, but with a serial number and a better graphic.  Team Fortress 2 and LoL business model runs on cosmetic items, suggesting that MMOs can't have raid based upon cosmetic items seems to imply to me that few people really want to run raids.

OK, but for some people, chasing after gear with better stats *is fun*. They put up with the actual raid - and many of them do enjoy it but there are absolutely people for whom it is only a means to an end - to get there because they want that rush at getting the item or whatever, and some segment of those people are not happy with cosmetic items.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Typhon
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Reply #678 on: August 06, 2013, 05:56:19 PM

Everyone should be doing the things they find fun.  If the devs have to give players extra incentive to do a certain activity, I have to wonder why they have that activity.  If all activities reward the player with the same progression items (i.e. loot) and no one wants to do raids because of that, it implies that people just really want the best rewards.  Why do games feel like they need to social engineer players into pre-set groups?

That said, I recognize that organizing 40 people is more difficult then organizing 5 people, and some recognition of overcoming that challenge is warranted.  Thus the suggestion that raiders get special cosmetic items.  I would suggest that the special item is the same high-level loot, but with a serial number and a better graphic.  Team Fortress 2 and LoL business model runs on cosmetic items, suggesting that MMOs can't have raid based upon cosmetic items seems to imply to me that few people really want to run raids.

OK, but for some people, chasing after gear with better stats *is fun*. They put up with the actual raid - and many of them do enjoy it but there are absolutely people for whom it is only a means to an end - to get there because they want that rush at getting the item or whatever, and some segment of those people are not happy with cosmetic items.

For *everyone* playing one of these games chasing after gear (and other progression, level, abilities, what have you) is fun.  That is why they play these games and not no-progression FPS, RTS, etc.  Unless the activity that you like gets the best gear, then having one activity getting the best gear is not fun.
Kageru
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Reply #679 on: August 06, 2013, 05:59:12 PM

I don't mind a game going for the raiders or not being suited for the more casual gaming I'm into now. I did EQ and WoW raiding and it had it's own type of fun but too much invested time....

The more interesting question is whether it's a good idea for the game as a whole. Having a raid progression sucks up a lot of cash and development time which means starving other parts of the game and probably needing a subscription fee to fund it. And making raid content that appeals to the elite, when there are lots of MMO's and the trend seems towards more casual play, seems risky.

Of course they might also be looking at a rapidly weakening WoW, with Titan ineligible as a replacement, and thinking it's worth a shot.

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Venkman
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Reply #680 on: August 06, 2013, 07:51:00 PM

"The best gear in the game will come from 40-man raids. It will be entirely unique."

I'm out.
Oh come on. That to me is like saying yould never play COD or LOL or SC2 unless you think you can hit first place in the world rankings. How would you compare your chances of doing that versus PUGing a 40-man for gear?

I get it of course. Players knowing there's a glass ceiling is demotivating. But this has been a staple forever, and I personally have long since come to terms with what I'll never be able to do without considerable lifestyle changes I have no intention of ever making.

They should just put raid only stats on the gear so not everyone feels they must have it.  If the raid gear had the same stats as your gear +10% damage to raid mobs, would that still bother people who don't want to raid?
Well, they kinda do that already in MMOs don't they? Players typically can steamroll regular non-raid level-cap content just in what they achieve from non-raid quests. While that is just the starting point for raid progression thereafter, all the subsequent raid gear typically allows that player to do is steamroll the non-raid level-cap content slightly quicker.

I don't dislike your idea though. It kinda sounds like that Fractals-only (or was it Shores only) stat they launched in GW2. No idea if it's still a fractals-only stat, but it was an interesting approach. The playerbase is already going to compartmentalize by zone/map/event, so formalizing that makes it easier for those to accept the existence of the fence that's going to always be there anyway.
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Reply #681 on: August 06, 2013, 11:17:59 PM

Honest question, if they said you can get the best gear in the game but it is much more rare and will take much longer outside of 40-man raid content would this still be a problem? Like if you could grind out something that would upgrade your gear to as good or 95% as good but it takes quite some time compared to getting the drop off the 40-man content would you be happy or mad that the top tier raider types are getting it faster?

It would still be a problem, unless it was a free to play game. If there's a sub involved i want the exact same access to everything in the game playing solo the entire time. I demand that it be a solo game that I pay a subscription fee for continuing support and new content, there just happens to be other people playing it around me. I want the option to group with other people and have the difficulty scale up, or fuck it - stay exactly the same. Make it a fucking joke where we're just running around decapitating everything in one swing like it's a Monty Python movie. If I group it should be because it's fun to do and I like the company regardless of what's happening in the game. Sort of like, you know, "grouping" with people in the real world. Grouping with random people who could give a shit who or what I am and make it seem like it's me and 4 high-strung NPCs is for chumps and idiots. And frankly that's what just about every MMO guild that's ever been. Certainly all the ones big enough to get 20 people together for a raid.

People like to cry about how trivial Wrath of the Lich King group stuff was, but there's a reason it was the pinnacle of WoW in terms of fun, satisfaction, and subs. It's also no coincidence that those three things dropped once they bumped things back up again.

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Reply #682 on: August 07, 2013, 12:43:37 AM

If Wrath of the Lich King was acceptable to you, then you're saying you actually don't need access to the best gear as a solo player, as that stuff was hiding in heroic 25s.

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Sjofn
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Reply #683 on: August 07, 2013, 01:05:11 AM

WotLK was about right for me, personally, I didn't give a shit that the 25-man people had "better" gear than me, because I wasn't doing 25-mans, and (usually) the 10-mans were balanced for the people doing 10-mans. So I had my little progression track where I had new shit to do every patch, just like the people doing the "real" raids. They also made an effort to release new 5-mans, new dailies without going too overboard, etc.

That's really what it is for me, if they're going to derp it and focus on pooping out enough 40-man shit to keep the catasses happy while ignoring everyone else, that's going to be a huge problem for me. I am cool with parts of the game not being for me. I am not cool with not getting any new shit ever because they're too focused on a part of the game I am not interested in.

I am also so over PvP stats. I am extra special over "you have to do arenas to get the really good shit" thing. That's not as big a deal for me, though, if I want to PvP I have lowbie PvP in SWTOR and WvW in GW2 to entertain me. :P

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Zetor
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Reply #684 on: August 07, 2013, 01:22:38 AM

Pretty much. To reiterate my previous posts: I don't really care about 40man raid gear, attunements, and "appealing to vanilla or BC WOW fans" in general (other than being amused that all this is apparently a good thing in 2013). I don't do that shit, others do it, they like it or don't -- whatever, it doesn't impact me. Edit: actually it does if people are taking their "better than everything else" 2-shot-tastic uberweapons / trinkets into pvp, which can be brutal even if they don't have pvp stats... just as it was in vanilla and BC WOW.

What DOES impact me is their archaic design of gear-based pvp, which, again, is a throwback to the time when pvp in WOW was at its worst (with arena-only pvp gear and the resilience stat ensuring that if you didn't grind for your gear, you were just an ineffective speedbump). Yeah, I played that game when it was called WOW, Rift, and SWTOR. It wasn't a good system then, and it sure as heck isn't going to be one now... and that's assuming they are going to take some basic sanity measures that have been implemented by those games in the last 8 years (such as bolstering, or a free set of pvp gear that's actually semi-competitive), which I haven't seen any evidence of. But even then, the system is flawed at its core.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 01:33:43 AM by Zetor »

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Reply #685 on: August 07, 2013, 02:54:43 AM

if they're going to derp it and focus on pooping out enough 40-man shit to keep the catasses happy while ignoring everyone else, that's going to be a huge problem for me. I am cool with parts of the game not being for me. I am not cool with not getting any new shit ever because they're too focused on a part of the game I am not interested in.

This.

If they cater to the "elite" minority whilst decrying the bulk of players as "casuals" then I have zero interest and await it's collapse in ~2 years.

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Typhon
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Reply #686 on: August 07, 2013, 05:49:15 AM

"The best gear in the game will come from 40-man raids. It will be entirely unique."

I'm out.
Oh come on. That to me is like saying yould never play COD or LOL or SC2 unless you think you can hit first place in the world rankings. How would you compare your chances of doing that versus PUGing a 40-man for gear?

I get it of course. Players knowing there's a glass ceiling is demotivating. But this has been a staple forever, and I personally have long since come to terms with what I'll never be able to do without considerable lifestyle changes I have no intention of ever making.


I think maybe I type poorly, and that my calm isn't coming across.  There is no hate (in me).  I've done the soloist/small group player in a raider game and, FOR ME, I'm aware that the biggest part of the game is something that I'll never participate in, but it will trickle down into other part of the game (pvp, big zone events, etc).  It will be the mote in my eye the entire time I'm playing.  The housing looks really good, but not good enough to put up with the annoyance it causes ME.

For those that it doesn't bother, cool for you, looks like a decent game.
Draegan
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Reply #687 on: August 07, 2013, 06:13:24 AM

WotLK was about right for me, personally, I didn't give a shit that the 25-man people had "better" gear than me, because I wasn't doing 25-mans, and (usually) the 10-mans were balanced for the people doing 10-mans. So I had my little progression track where I had new shit to do every patch, just like the people doing the "real" raids. They also made an effort to release new 5-mans, new dailies without going too overboard, etc.

That's really what it is for me, if they're going to derp it and focus on pooping out enough 40-man shit to keep the catasses happy while ignoring everyone else, that's going to be a huge problem for me. I am cool with parts of the game not being for me. I am not cool with not getting any new shit ever because they're too focused on a part of the game I am not interested in.

I am also so over PvP stats. I am extra special over "you have to do arenas to get the really good shit" thing. That's not as big a deal for me, though, if I want to PvP I have lowbie PvP in SWTOR and WvW in GW2 to entertain me. :P

Wildstar is going to have unique 40 man raids. unique 20 man raids. and solo instances that progress the story/lore of the game. 40 man raids are there for the uber challenge.
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Reply #688 on: August 07, 2013, 08:27:03 AM

I was all frothy about this and then remembered that I have never had BiS in any MMO I have ever played so it doesn't really matter if it's not going to be accessible to me.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Draegan
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Reply #689 on: August 07, 2013, 08:35:44 AM

Heh yeah. It's like not playing in a softball league because you'll never be able to play in the World Series.
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Reply #690 on: August 07, 2013, 08:48:08 AM

Heh yeah. It's like not playing in a softball league because you'll never be able to play in the World Series.

Not quite.  Some of us see it as a game where characters can progress 100 levels, but you can only get to levels 95-100 if you're willing to endure voice chat with 39 mouth breathers for several hours.  

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« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 08:51:43 AM by Nebu »

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Draegan
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Reply #691 on: August 07, 2013, 09:04:26 AM

Ok I'll make another stupid analogy. That's like complaining about playing baseball because you don't like swinging a bat.  awesome, for real

I never put up with playing with mouth breathers. In games that I can find fun people to play with, I have raided. When I can't find interesting people to play with, I stop playing the game. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Every time I have fun until I get to that point though.
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Reply #692 on: August 07, 2013, 09:29:16 AM

My point is that raids aren't hard.  Organizing 40 competent gamers is hard.  The barrier to success in a raid lies less on the ability to overcome a challenge and more in ensuring you've invited 39 other people that won't fuck up at a critical moment.  If they want to introduce challenging content, it could as easily be 5 or 10 person scale.  This seems more a marketing ploy to attract large guilds than to challenge the player base.  

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Threash
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Reply #693 on: August 07, 2013, 09:33:20 AM

My point is that raids aren't hard.  Organizing 40 competent gamers is hard.  The barrier to success in a raid lies less on the ability to overcome a challenge and more in ensuring you've invited 39 other people that won't fuck up at a critical moment.  If they want to introduce challenging content, it could as easily be 5 or 10 person scale.  This seems more a marketing ploy to attract large guilds than to challenge the player base.  

That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either. 

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Nebu
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Reply #694 on: August 07, 2013, 09:39:25 AM

That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either.  

Think of a relative scale rather than in absolutes.  Also consider why raids and finding people to do raids is a challenge.  Coordination and proper gear level are the typical barriers to success. That and development bugs.

There exists a difference between mechanical and personnel challenge. i.e. if 10% of your players are 'good' gamers, then amassing 40 of them will be a personnel challenge. In this case the greater hurdle may be a personnel challenge.  It's yet another way to gatekeep content (like the more common gearscore or level gate)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 09:43:50 AM by Nebu »

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Reply #695 on: August 07, 2013, 10:09:21 AM

Pandering to a hardcore segment in this gaming year isn't going to be very popular. There's a market for it, but it will cause problems they don't see. Spending time on 1% of your players' content is a bad business model.

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Reply #696 on: August 07, 2013, 10:20:35 AM

Meanwhile, here's the latest "State of the Beta" official update:
http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/news/wildstar_wednesday_state_of_the_beta_-_august_7th_2013.php

Important changes to some key game systems, first "phase" of beta (CBT 1-3 + Stress Tests) is over and see you later this year for the next phase while we overhaul the aforementioned systems.

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satael
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Reply #697 on: August 07, 2013, 10:24:25 AM

I was all frothy about this and then remembered that I have never had BiS in any MMO I have ever played so it doesn't really matter if it's not going to be accessible to me.

BiS was easy in GW2 (before ascended items) since it only took level 80 exotics and it was (very) easy to get them  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Rendakor
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Reply #698 on: August 07, 2013, 10:33:21 AM

That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either. 
Finding 39 people you can tolerate, who can be consistently available for 3 hours 1-3 days a week is not easy.

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Reply #699 on: August 07, 2013, 10:44:41 AM

My point is that raids aren't hard.  Organizing 40 competent gamers is hard.  The barrier to success in a raid lies less on the ability to overcome a challenge and more in ensuring you've invited 39 other people that won't fuck up at a critical moment.  If they want to introduce challenging content, it could as easily be 5 or 10 person scale.  This seems more a marketing ploy to attract large guilds than to challenge the player base.  

That doesn't make sense, if raids weren't hard then finding people who could do them wouldn't be hard either.  

I think it mostly doesn't make sense because a raid can be as hard or as easy as it feels like being.  There are easy raids and hard raids and everything in between.  I mean... right?

I guess you could argue that no matter how hard a raid gets, the hardest part is organizing people sufficiently skilled to beat the raid (since as the raid gets harder, the organization also gets more complex, and your pool of players diminishes). But it seems disingenuous to go from that to saying that the raid itself isn't hard.  It is hard; that's why it makes it even harder to find people who can beat it.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 10:49:32 AM by Abelian75 »
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