Age of Conan delayed, stock takes big hit

[Amaron]

Don't put unproven designers at the head of a project.

Most of the good MMORPGs were made by unproven designers. It's their second games you have to watch out for.

While I know you guys went over this I can't pass up the chance to rag on the industry by saying there are no good MMORPG's yet.  Even WoW isn't good.  It's merely the first professional attempt in the entire genre with some decent redeeming points.  Kind of like a lot of AAA single player games that have good polish and quality but just aren't any fun for very long.

Of course some of them were fun but none of them were good.  I still love UO on many levels but that game was utter trash when it came out.  Their idea of a database was a flatfile that saved every 30 minutes.

[Trippy]

I pronounce SQL, as in the database query language, "sequel" as do most other developers in Canada.  I don't know if this is true but apparently in the U.S. people sound it out as S, Q, L and if you say sequel they don't know what you mean.

That's not true. People say it both ways here in the US.

Edit: fixed quoting

[Merusk]

While I know you guys went over this I can't pass up the chance to rag on the industry by saying there are no good MMORPG's yet.  Even WoW isn't good. 

Opinions, blah, blah.

Of course some of them were fun but none of them were good.  I still love UO on many levels but that game was utter trash when it came out.  Their idea of a database was a flatfile that saved every 30 minutes.

Because that was the standard for the backgrounds of all involved.  DBs began seeing regular use in games long after UO came out.  Even EQ1 used flat files.  Hell, DAoC might have even done so, but I'm not sure.   To point back to 1995 and say "Ha ha you used flat files" is akin to pointing at 1974 and saying "ha ha, typewriters!"


Oh, and:

PSI, ADA, SPF, BTU, RPM, ROI, ATV, AQC, ESB, RIAA, PSF, CPU, DVD, DVR, VCR, BC, AD, AC, HVAC, BDOP, APA, AIA, VC, HD, DAT, PDA.

Like schild I also say "S-W-G" not "swig"

Let's not forget you also have the weird ones that are said as letters or the full phrase, but not some bastardization.  OC, HDD and BOP spring to mind. 

[Hoax]

I laughed out my nose, being at work while laughing sucks.

[caladein]

Oh, and:

PSI, ADA, SPF, BTU, RPM, ROI, ATV, AQC, ESB, RIAA, PSF, CPU, DVD, DVR, VCR, BC, AD, AC, HVAC, BDOP, APA, AIA, VC, HD, DAT, PDA.

Like schild I also say "S-W-G" not "swig"

I actually say "dat" like "that", but I also say "S-W-G" and "my S-Q-L". A guildmate says "swigie" (or "swigy" maybe) and I want to strangle him with my mind.

[Venkman]

Come on. I know schild is giving you special privileges for calling SWG "S-W-G" 

I seriously don't know how it sounds right. But I'm thinking it's just me.

[Merusk]

Come on. I know schild is giving you special privileges for calling SWG "S-W-G" 

If schild realizes I'm even on this board, 90% of the time it's for quoting him directly.  :-D   

[WindupAtheist]

Jean-Claude Van Damme is underrated.  He's been relegated to shitty direct-to-video flicks for years now, but somewhere along the line he actually learned some acting.

[Venkman]

I think it's because he learned that acting after Hollywood spent the big bucks on him. Sorta too late now. He needs to do a TV series.

[UnSub]

While I know you guys went over this I can't pass up the chance to rag on the industry by saying there are no good MMORPG's yet.  Even WoW isn't good.  It's merely the first professional attempt in the entire genre with some decent redeeming points.  Kind of like a lot of AAA single player games that have good polish and quality but just aren't any fun for very long.

Of course some of them were fun but none of them were good.  I still love UO on many levels but that game was utter trash when it came out.  Their idea of a database was a flatfile that saved every 30 minutes.

MMOs (and I say Moes) and MMOGs (mogs - wow, wasn't that a fun game) are good enough for their time and the stage of the industry - there are some fun enough ones out there. Sure, there are more opportunities to expand into other areas, but they are fun enough to play for a while.

Here's what a lot of disgruntled MMOG players need to remember:

1) No game -ever- is going to be so good you are going to spend the rest of your life with it. You aren't marrying the damn game; it's not that kind of relationship. If you get 100 hours of fun out of MMO and quit - congrats, you had 100 hours of fun. If you had 98 hours of grind and 2 of fun, sucks to be you. If you are having fun, the game is good enough.

2) You play any game long enough, you are going to get bored with it. Unless you are playing MMOs like it's chess in Communist Russia and they'll kill your family if you quit, you are one day going to pull the plug on your subscription. MMOs aren't failures just because they don't entertain you for the rest of your natural life once you buy the box and log in.

YMMV.

[Amaron]

Opinions, blah, blah.

You can say opinions but it has nothing to do with my personal prefs.  Those games simply were unprofessionally made.  Professionalism isn't as widely open to debate as "what game I like".

Because that was the standard for the backgrounds of all involved.  DBs began seeing regular use in games long after UO came out.  Even EQ1 used flat files.  Hell, DAoC might have even done so, but I'm not sure.   To point back to 1995 and say "Ha ha you used flat files" is akin to pointing at 1974 and saying "ha ha, typewriters!"

Who cares when they began seeing regular use in games?  DB's were well established for proper client/server long before UO came out.  I actually wasn't ragging on UO for that though.  The reason they used flatfiles is because UO was an experiment and they couldn't really hire a proper client/server software engineer that they might not need in the future.  But it doesn't change the fact that we ended up with a piece of software that was bad.  I merely pointed this out to say why it's been 10 years to get professional games though.

Here's what a lot of disgruntled MMOG players need to remember:

I'm not a disgruntled MMOG player.  I am a disgruntled software design consultant who's old enough that I was already doing this sort of work when MMO's started coming out. I'm not even commenting on fun which is what your whole post in counterpoint to mine seems to be about.   I also hate MMO's that expect me to play past the 2 month mark.  I want to finish the game and move onto the next one immediately. Your comments and stereotypes are something I heavily agree with but you've definitely pegged me wrong if you think I fit into that group of whiners who expect a game to be fun for 2-3 years.

[gimpyone]

I'm not a disgruntled MMOG player.  I am a disgruntled software design consultant who's old enough that I was already doing this sort of work when MMO's started coming out. I'm not even commenting on fun which is what your whole post in counterpoint to mine seems to be about.   I also hate MMO's that expect me to play past the 2 month mark.  I want to finish the game and move onto the next one immediately. Your comments and stereotypes are something I heavily agree with but you've definitely pegged me wrong if you think I fit into that group of whiners who expect a game to be fun for 2-3 years.
[/quote]

So why are you playing MMOs then?

[Amaron]

So why are you playing MMOs then?

Perhaps you'd like to expand on that by explaining why I shouldn't want to play MMO's?

[schild]

So why are you playing MMOs then?

Perhaps you'd like to expand on that by explaining why I shouldn't want to play MMO's?

I can come up with a couple of reasons.

But no one would EVER dare ask me that question. It would unleash a hellfire frenzy that would leave no survivors.

[Amaron]

So why are you playing MMOs then?

Perhaps you'd like to expand on that by explaining why I shouldn't want to play MMO's?

I can come up with a couple of reasons.

But no one would EVER dare ask me that question. It would unleash a hellfire frenzy that would leave no survivors.

Well I didn't mean "why do you think MMO's suck to the point that I shouldn't want to play MMO's"?  I more meant he shouldn't be a prick and suggest that theres something wrong with me only wanting to play an MMO for a few months instead of quitting my job and becoming a loser in a basement for 3 years.  Since I'm pretty sure he was being a prick and suggesting something like that.

[Rishathra]

If you hate MMOs that expect you to play past the 2 month mark, you probably shouldn't be playing MMOs.  The whole point of an MMO, besides having fun (hopefully), is that you are going to play it for an extended period of time.  Sure, maybe not 2-3 years, but come on.  It's like saying, "I hate TV shows that expect me to keep watching them after the first 2 episodes."

[Merusk]

Opinions, blah, blah.

You can say opinions but it has nothing to do with my personal prefs.  Those games simply were unprofessionally made.  Professionalism isn't as widely open to debate as "what game I like".

Way to take a completely different topic and twist it around then.  They weren't talking about software design.  Most of the time we don't.  The majority of us couldn't give a rats ass about it, so long as it's fun and it works.

When they were speaking of design, they didn't mean the quality of how 'slick' the code was, but the fun it doles out and the way it engages the player.  Your "wow is bad" came across as a subjective opinion of fun, not a qualitative issue of code and professionalism.

 The entire discussion before you was  about fun and other subjectives, and you decided to jump in and say "Oh no, games suck (because they're unprofessional!)" without actually stating that's where you were coming from.  Here I thought that I communicated badly at times.

That said, nobody here argues that game creation is an unprofessional business. It's an unspoken and accepted fact.  It's one of the major failings of the industry as a whole.  Right along with the sexism, the man-children running things and the cronyism that keeps bad people in high positions.

[shiznitz]

Not sure anyone cares but since I did the work, I thought I would share.

Funcom the company has a USD160 million value. So what level of success for AoC does that imply? To be "cheap" with a $160MM value, Funcom would have to earn $16MM in cash earnings (after taxes, before non-cash items like depreciation of which a game developer has little.) Assuming 50% operating margins and a 35% tax rate, they need 300,000+ subscribers.

300k X $12/month X 12 months = $43.2MM annual revenue (using $12 because something will go to Eidos, the publsiher maybe).
50% to operating expenses = $21.6MM operating profit
35% tax rate = $14MM net income

I am obviously ignoring initial box sales because that is more of a one time lump cash infusion than an earnings stream.  I am also ignoring AO (which is insignificant at this point) and any other ongoing development of single player games.

So the cheat sheat version is that Funcom ain't cheap unless AoC blows away all expecations.

[Nyght]

In addition to AO, don't they have some other game products? I thought they published some single player games.

I ain't buying them in any case, but just sayin' that might not be the entire picture.

How much do we think they spent on this project? $50MM?

[SnakeCharmer]

In addition to AO, don't they have some other game products? I thought they published some single player games.

Dreamfall, The Longest Journey

[tmp]

Dreamfall, The Longest Journey

Yup. They actually got a grant from Norwegian Film Fund a while ago, for continuation of Dreamfall that's to be released in chapters. Part of "Norwegian government’s active endorsement of the Norwegian game development industry", apparently.

[shiznitz]

In addition to AO, don't they have some other game products? I thought they published some single player games.

I ain't buying them in any case, but just sayin' that might not be the entire picture.

How much do we think they spent on this project? $50MM?

I am not claiming AoC is the entire picture but one would be hard put to argue that AoC isn't going to be the vast majority of company earnings in the next two years.

As far as how much they spent, they don't break it out by project but software companies put development expenses on the balance sheet and then bleed those expenses into the income statement over time as the games start generating revenues.

Date / Capitalized software costs

December 2006 / $20MM
March 2007 / $23MM
June 2007 / $27MM

Now, of course, other game develoment is in those numbers to some degree, but the vast majority has to be AoC. The you have to consider the $30MM they just raised. Where will that be spent? Once again I expect the vast majority will go to support AoC, either as development costs or marketing costs.

[Venkman]

So why are you playing MMOs then?

Perhaps you'd like to expand on that by explaining why I shouldn't want to play MMO's?

Because you expect to play a linear game with a start, middle, and end. You want an RPG. You're in a persistent world environment though.

[Mrbloodworth]

In addition to AO, don't they have some other game products? I thought they published some single player games.

I ain't buying them in any case, but just sayin' that might not be the entire picture.

How much do we think they spent on this project? $50MM?

I am not claiming AoC is the entire picture but one would be hard put to argue that AoC isn't going to be the vast majority of company earnings in the next two years.

As far as how much they spent, they don't break it out by project but software companies put development expenses on the balance sheet and then bleed those expenses into the income statement over time as the games start generating revenues.

Date / Capitalized software costs

December 2006 / $20MM
March 2007 / $23MM
June 2007 / $27MM

Now, of course, other game develoment is in those numbers to some degree, but the vast majority has to be AoC. The you have to consider the $30MM they just raised. Where will that be spent? Once again I expect the vast majority will go to support AoC, either as development costs or marketing costs.

But! if they put out a quality game (because of the delay) and it has an acceptable subscribe base....for the next 10 years.

I have always wondered how long it takes MMO to finally pay for themselves on an average.

[palmer_eldritch]

The UK magazine PC Zone has a short article about the Age of Conan beta, saying readers can get beta keys from the PC Zone website. Sadly if you go to the website there are no keys, just this:

Hey guys,

We're sorry to say that the Conan beta key giveaway won't be happening on this particular occasion. This is because of several things, namely problems with delays, the people supposedly organising the beta keys, and ends of bargains not being held up. We're working with Eidos to try get at least a handful of keys in the near future, but for now there are none.

Yes, we're a little annoyed too. We are dirt, we are literally dirt, and we owe you one third of an A4 page of real news and not a piece about a beta which never happened. Arjghjrhgrj.

My point . . . well, none really, I'm just having a moan. But it looks like Eidos are pissing people off a bit.

[sam, an eggplant]

The release date was 10/30 until last week. Their publisher really thought they'd be in beta by now. But they're not, so they can hardly hand out keys.

[Amaron]

  The whole point of an MMO, besides having fun (hopefully), is that you are going to play it for an extended period of time. 

I think you've misunderstood me somewhat by me saying 2 months.   Take EQ1 for instance.  I got to 50 and consumed nearly all the content in the game (since there were no content updates or expansions by then) in 2~4 months then quit.  I did the same with WoW and so on.  Perhaps I should of said 3 or 4 months since indeed I sometimes play that long.  I was talking about certain BS practices in some games like SWG where they put in artifical real life time limits (like the monthly waits for the jedi quest and so forth).  Or for instance the RL limits in WoW put on the PvP honor system when it was first out.

Way to take a completely different topic and twist it around then. 

True.  I have no problem with you saying I did this.  I'm glad you finally realized that was my intent in the first place.

Because you expect to play a linear game with a start, middle, and end. You want an RPG. You're in a persistent world environment though.

I don't care if there is an end.  As long as there are no stupid real life restrictions on how fast I can play the game I'm fine with whatever.  Although I will say I don't think a slightly linear RPG in a persistent world would be a bad idea.   I get the idea LOTRO is trying something like this?  I haven't tried that game though so I'm probably mistaken.

[sam, an eggplant]

You got to 50 in original EQ in 1999, no expansion packs, in 2 months? Unless you're a total psycho, I doubt that very much. It took me 39 days /played on my first character. I guess I could see someone doing it in 30 days /played on their first character at that time, but even that means 12 hours of EQ every day for 2 months straight.

[palmer_eldritch]

The release date was 10/30 until last week. Their publisher really thought they'd be in beta by now. But they're not, so they can hardly hand out keys.

I'm sure that's the reason, but they have started accepting people into the beta. Anyway, never mind, I guess the idea that I'd get in just from buying the magazine was always a bit hopeful

[Venkman]

I don't care if there is an end.  As long as there are no stupid real life restrictions on how fast I can play the game I'm fine with whatever.  Although I will say I don't think a slightly linear RPG in a persistent world would be a bad idea.   I get the idea LOTRO is trying something like this?  I haven't tried that game though so I'm probably mistaken.

Actually, the way you explain it, you do care if there's an end. You just have your own definition for it. In the past it's been "level" or some other element, but your comment about not being asked to play beyond a certain amount of months means you approach these games as experiences to consume and then leave. You back into the game with an expectation of how long it'll take to reach some point. I'm not making a value judgment. That's just my interpretation.

None of these games are really designed for that. You're supposed to play until boredom or a massive nerf to your favorite class/template :)

LoTRO is little different from WoW except for it's stronger reliance on storyline. However, that really just translates into way many more multi-step quests than WoW has. The actual storyline in LoTRO, the "trademark" of Turbine that fans of both Turbine and LoTRO are waiting for, hasn't yet kicked in. That's one thing we're actually discussing in the LoTRO sub-forum here in fact. Right now the main focus has been on balance and more "things to do", like Monster Play. Nothing says DIKU more than features designed to ensure players stay on the advancement ladder. LoTRO's only hope of being more than a niche also-ran to WoW in my opinion is them actually moving the storyline forward in a consistent fashion.

[sam, an eggplant]

I'm sure that's the reason, but they have started accepting people into the beta.

Really? Well they might be accepted, but they're not playing yet.

[gimpyone]

Well I didn't mean "why do you think MMO's suck to the point that I shouldn't want to play MMO's"?  I more meant he shouldn't be a prick and suggest that theres something wrong with me only wanting to play an MMO for a few months instead of quitting my job and becoming a loser in a basement for 3 years.  Since I'm pretty sure he was being a prick and suggesting something like that.

No, I was not saying something like that.  I just wanted to see some reasoning.  I tend to see MMOs as games that one can never complete.   What is your idea of "finishing" these games.  The way you phrased your original complaint caught my eye.  I didn't mean to come off as an ass.

[jpark]

I had a another look at this game and I am interested - if executed as they claim - I would leave WoW for this game (I would still like to retain my title as a WoW fanboi however)

My cursory glance, there are some things I really like, especially given what we all learned from the problems of Shadowbane:

1.  City Seige PVE - an adjacent computer controlled city builds near your guild's - you must lay seige to it.
2.  City PVP SEIGE time windows - no more 3 AM raids on your fort like shadow bane - sounds like there will be certain hours for pvp Seige stuff - and a battle tent is set up to signal the impending attack in hours in advance of the assault.
3.  Feats / advancement - sounds like you have a lot more control over attribute and point allocation - which Shadowbane had - but WoW and EQ2 never offered.  That is awesome.
4.  Blood money pvp rewards and a separate parallel path for pvp rank advancement.
5.  The class line up - while pretty standard - looks cool - nice touch interpreting the Barbarian as a Rogue archetype damage dealer.
6.  Drunken pvp pub brawls.  Nuff said :)
7.  Their combat system - and some visuals - like actually seeing the rider mount the horse.
8.  Raid content info seem really sparse - but I gather they have it...

And so on. I am interested.  Glad to see they delayed the game - sounds like they know the lesson of bad first impressions.

[Hoax]

He's bringing hope!  Break his legs!!

Seriously though...

Glad to see they delayed the game - sounds like they know the lesson of bad first impressions.

You never played AO at launch, or you are a very funny and very sick little man.

[Montague]

The UK magazine PC Zone has a short article about the Age of Conan beta, saying readers can get beta keys from the PC Zone website. Sadly if you go to the website there are no keys, just this:

Hey guys,

We're sorry to say that the Conan beta key giveaway won't be happening on this particular occasion. This is because of several things, namely problems with delays, the people supposedly organising the beta keys, and ends of bargains not being held up. We're working with Eidos to try get at least a handful of keys in the near future, but for now there are none.

Yes, we're a little annoyed too. We are dirt, we are literally dirt, and we owe you one third of an A4 page of real news and not a piece about a beta which never happened. Arjghjrhgrj.

My point . . . well, none really, I'm just having a moan. But it looks like Eidos are pissing people off a bit.

To me that quote there is far more ominous than the announcement that AOC was delayed. Despite Gaute's damage control and veiled shot at WAR, fact is that Mythic is out doing gamedays and showing people there is an actual game and proceeeding smoothy with a closed beta. Meanwhile Eidos is welshing on Beta agreements. I think those who are expecting a smooth and polished game in March are going to be profoundly disappointed.

 Edit - Apparently Funcom is going to let people actually play the game at Leipzig instead of another "show". We'll see how that goes.