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f13.net General Forums => MMOG Discussion => Topic started by: Tale on December 12, 2008, 03:46:55 PM



Title: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 12, 2008, 03:46:55 PM
Below, in the quote box, is the original, unedited post.

Quote
I met with a recruiter recently (online media industry) and in conversation I happened to mention I'd spent way too much time in the early 2000s playing online games, which I described as "the ones before World of Warcraft" (I went nuts for EQ1, SWG and the start of WoW, but since 2006 I have only put a handful of days into MMOG playing - as opposed to discussing them - I've obsessed over bicycles and cycling instead).

He replied that employers specifically instruct him not to send them World of Warcraft players. He said there is a belief that WoW players cannot give 100% because their focus is elsewhere, their sleeping patterns are often not great, etc. I mentioned that some people have written about MMOG leadership experience as a career positive (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.04/learn.html) or a way to learn project management skills (http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/03/joi-ito-on-wows-proj.html), and he shook his head. He has been specifically asked to avoid WoW players.

ATTENTION READERS:
If you were linked here from another site, odds are they got the story wrong. Since columnists and bloggers on the internet can't read, we're going to put this in "simple" speak for any future people that want to write about this anecdotal forum post:

1. Tale was having a conversation with someone at lunch.
2. It was not a job interview, he has a job in online media. Though, apparently almost everyone who wrote about this story should not have a job in online media.
3. This was merely a brief comment in a conversation.
4. Tale is not in America. He is in Australia.
5. This is a single recruiter who said this, not some company or some massive employer, just one dude. Just ONE DUDE.

ATTENTION JOURNALISTS:
Nearly all of you should throw yourselves out a window. You're an embarrassment to the profession and have managed to somehow lower the bar for blogging.


Edit 2: For the record, here is a list of places that totally fucked up the story. You're all "on notice." Forever. I have bolded italicized  the ones that should be fucking ashamed. Also, please note, the ones that aren't italicized still totally fucked up the story, but they shouldn't have been trusted to begin with. As in, they were already, well... basically, trash.

Boing Boing (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/15/should-employers-dis.html)
Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5111403/job-recruiters-instructed-to-avoid-wow-players)
Massively (http://www.massively.com/2008/12/16/employers-screening-wow-players-during-recruitment/)
Tweakers (http://tweakers.net/nieuws/57381/amerikaanse-headhunters-krijgen-opdracht-wow-spelers-af-te-wijzen.html)
PCGames.de (http://www.pcgames.de/aid,670797/World_of_Warcraft-Spieler_und_auf_Jobsuche_Keine_guten_Aussichten_/News/)
Gamestar.de (http://www.gamestar.de/news/pc/rollenspiel/online/1952103/world_of_warcraft.html)
Games Industry (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/employers-screening-world-of-warcraft-players)
WoWInsider (http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/12/16/do-wow-players-make-bad-employees/)
G4TV (http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/691813/World_of_Warcraft_May_Disqualify_You_for_a_Job_.html)
Silicon Alley Insider (http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/12/headhunter-employers-hate-world-of-warcraft-players)
MaximumPC (http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/job_recruiters_wow_players_gtfo)
Jeux Video (http://www.jeuxvideo.com/commentaires/9-0-30743-6-news_20081217-1-0-0.htm)
Project Lore (http://projectlore.com/blog/job-recruiters-avoid-wow-players/)
Yelp! (http://www.yelp.com/topic/chicago-recruiters-avoiding-wow-players)
Escapist (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/88188-Job-Recruiters-Told-Not-to-Hire-WoW-Players)
Game Politics (http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/12/17/are-employers-discriminating-against-wow-players)
Asylum (http://www.asylum.com/2008/12/16/does-world-of-warcraft-produce-bad-employees/)
College OTR (http://www.collegeotr.com/college_otr/should_employeers_discriminate_based_on_world_of_warcraft_16905)
New York Times (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/world-of-warcraft-players-need-not-apply/)
Seattle PC Game Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-892-Seattle-PC-Game-Examiner~y2008m12d17-Dont-hire-WoW-players)
Techradar (http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/world-of-warcraft-army-tops-11-5-million-496976)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Merusk on December 12, 2008, 04:11:14 PM
I can't say I disagree with the assessment.

Ed 12/23: The Times fails on all kinds of levels here. Wow.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ingmar on December 12, 2008, 04:23:18 PM
What a bunch of crap (he said while posting from work...)  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Hawkbit on December 12, 2008, 04:24:29 PM
Generally, I don't tell people that I game on a computer.  I usually chat with people irl about consoles and their games, but there has always been a stigma about PC gamers that sticks wtih people.  It's like telling them you're into BDSM or something... once they know they'll always look at you differently.  

It sounds stupid, but it's the truth.  


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nebu on December 12, 2008, 04:31:49 PM
If they were smart, they'd avoid people in fantasy leagues too. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lucas on December 12, 2008, 04:35:05 PM
It's like telling them you're into BDSM or something... once they know they'll always look at you differently.  

It sounds stupid, but it's the truth.  

Hehe, yes: in the past, I tried to speak with some of my close friends (none of them is into gaming) about videogames, and when I tell them I still play regularly, try out different gaming genres and stuff, *that* look starts surfacing on their faces and it ends with: "yeah, but c'mon, that is kids' stuff, I sure played them but I stopped when I was around twelve, you need to grow up!".

Alright.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 12, 2008, 05:14:44 PM
Shrug. They recently fired someone with a MMO addiction. It doubtless impacted his performance at work.

I conduct interviews and hire/fire all the time and I don't ask (or care) what people do when they're not working. It's none of my business so long as it doesn't impact their performance, and I haven't seen anything to indicate that MMOs are worse than spending all your money/time on filthy streetwalkers ("setting up whore websites for freebies"), smoking a shitton of pot, or singing in a church choir. Actually the choir guy was the worst, because the fucker kept asking to leave early to make rehersals. I liked the whoremonger and pothead while the churchmonkey, umm, decided to quit.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 12, 2008, 05:27:07 PM
He's right.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Rasix on December 12, 2008, 05:27:27 PM
It's like telling them you're into BDSM or something... once they know they'll always look at you differently.  

It sounds stupid, but it's the truth.  

Hehe, yes: in the past, I tried to speak with some of my close friends (none of them is into gaming) about videogames, and when I tell them I still play regularly, try out different gaming genres and stuff, *that* look starts surfacing on their faces and it ends with: "yeah, but c'mon, that is kids' stuff, I sure played them but I stopped when I was around twelve, you need to grow up!".

Alright.

Say anything other than Madden, Halo, or "the Wii" and most people will look at you like you've got some sort of contagious nerd super-flu. I don't even mention MMOs.  Those creep out even the few "gamers" I know at work.  I've had some people that know I play MMOs talk to me about WoW due to its cultural relevance.  It's mostly in hushed tones and away from other people like they're buying weed off me or something.

Most people are going to have things that make them shitty hires.  It's called vetting and people management.  Try it!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ingmar on December 12, 2008, 05:31:58 PM
It's like telling them you're into BDSM or something... once they know they'll always look at you differently.  

It sounds stupid, but it's the truth.  

Hehe, yes: in the past, I tried to speak with some of my close friends (none of them is into gaming) about videogames, and when I tell them I still play regularly, try out different gaming genres and stuff, *that* look starts surfacing on their faces and it ends with: "yeah, but c'mon, that is kids' stuff, I sure played them but I stopped when I was around twelve, you need to grow up!".

Alright.

Say anything other than Madden, Halo, or "the Wii" and most people will look at you like you've got some sort of contagious nerd super-flu. I don't even mention MMOs.  Those creep out even the few "gamers" I know at work.  I've had some people that know I play MMOs talk to me about WoW due to its cultural relevance.  It's mostly in hushed tones and away from other people like they're buying weed off me or something.


At least it isn't D&D?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: NiX on December 12, 2008, 05:53:58 PM
Up here that would be a very terrible thing to say to a candidate. Discrimination for the win.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Teleku on December 12, 2008, 06:33:56 PM
He only said WoW because thats the big name one that everybody and their mother plays.  The basic jist though is "Don't hire people who play MMO'S".  Which I'm not sure I can disagree with based on the reasoning they are applying  :awesome_for_real:.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ghambit on December 12, 2008, 06:40:04 PM
If I had a company of my own I'd probably only HIRE PC gamers, and probably give the MMO peeps management positions.   :why_so_serious:
Seriously though; at least when hiring gamerz you know where and what your workers are doing.  It's sort of like having a pseudo-RFID tag on everyone, which I find empowering (plus zombies make good slaves).  I've found that "normal folk" tend to phuck up WAAAY worse when they've got nothing to do with their time except work.

So no, he's not right.  Not by a longshot.


I conduct interviews and hire/fire all the time and I don't ask (or care) what people do when they're not working. It's none of my business so long as it doesn't impact their performance, and I haven't seen anything to indicate that MMOs are worse than spending all your money/time on filthy streetwalkers ("setting up whore websites for freebies"), smoking a shitton of pot, or singing in a church choir. Actually the choir guy was the worst, because the fucker kept asking to leave early to make rehersals. I liked the whoremonger and pothead while the churchmonkey, umm, decided to quit.

exactly


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 12, 2008, 06:47:00 PM
My gaming habits come up in interviews since I'm into testing. But I'm wondering why anyone would bring up WoW in any other kind of job interview? Most people probably don't even understand what they hell you'd be talking about.

I DPS for DKP on teh mobs, lol!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ghambit on December 12, 2008, 07:30:22 PM
My gaming habits come up in interviews since I'm into testing. But I'm wondering why anyone would bring up WoW in any other kind of job interview? Most people probably don't even understand what they hell you'd be talking about.

I DPS for DKP on teh mobs, lol!

Kinda sad that most managers dont know what WoW is, given the share they've got of our GDP and how successful their business model was/is.  Ironically, the only businesses that seem to be working lately are drugs, oil, and WoW in the USA.  Naturally, all 3 are pretty well hated-on, but all 3 still go strong.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 12, 2008, 08:07:19 PM
He only said WoW because thats the big name one that everybody and their mother plays.  The basic jist though is "Don't hire people who play MMO'S".  Which I'm not sure I can disagree with based on the reasoning they are applying  :awesome_for_real:.

But the genre is unknown outside gaming circles. In most people's minds, WoW is a kind of game, not a kind of MMO. It is the first game of its type that most people are aware of, and that's if they've even heard of WoW at all. That's why he only said WoW.

My gaming habits come up in interviews since I'm into testing. But I'm wondering why anyone would bring up WoW in any other kind of job interview? Most people probably don't even understand what they hell you'd be talking about.

I DPS for DKP on teh mobs, lol!

Correct. I did not specifically bring it up. But it wasn't a job interview, we were just doing lunch. He had a new iPhone 3G, we started talking technology and games, and I happened to mention I considered myself to have played too many online games several years ago. When I said "the ones that came before World of Warcraft", he had heard of WoW so he told me what employers had told him about its players. And I thought "I'll post that on f13".

If I had a reason to bring something like that up in an interview, it would be to demonstrate my broad awareness of what's going on culturally. My employability in online media is partly based on having been an oldschool internet user. It gives me a bigger bag of tricks to engage today's online users and make them click on stuff. So having done the MMO addiction thing and got out before most of today's WoW players got in, I might have some insight into "what the kids are doing". But that's not a particularly strong thing to bring up, especially as WoW players are probably too busy to click on my content.

(edit - whew - post restored via Google cache after accidental edit)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 12, 2008, 08:37:00 PM
Those darn kids, next thing you know they'll be hanging in pool halls, and saying things like "sure" and "swell!"

(The ladies gasp and swoon) "Ooooooo!"

We got trouble!
(Trouble! Trouble!)
Right here in River City!
(Right here in River City!)
With a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool!
THAT STANDS FOR POOL! I SAY YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL BE FRITTERIN AWAY!!!!11 FUCKING FRITTEREN OMFG WATCHTHETAIL50DKPMINUS111!!!!!!11111


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Numtini on December 12, 2008, 08:47:20 PM
I tend to not be obsessed by money though that is tempered by always being lucky enough to end up with enough. But really? I wouldn't want a job with a company like that. Life is too short.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 12, 2008, 09:18:30 PM
Correct. I did not specifically bring it up. But it wasn't a job interview, we were just doing lunch.

Ah. My misunderstanding there.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 12, 2008, 09:38:16 PM
Now that the army doesn't want me, I really want to sign up!  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: angry.bob on December 13, 2008, 01:25:34 AM
If they were smart, they'd avoid people in fantasy leagues too. 

Supertruth. Fantasy Leagues are a fucking blight upon all of mankind. Every IT shop I've worked in, people have spent the bulk of their day fucking around on the web with their teams and looking up stats for trades or whatever stupid shit you do with those things. Even though sports fans are usually far more retarded about their mancrush obsession than videogamers are, it's a "normal" obsession. When I point out that videogamers at least interact with their medium and most sports enthusiasts pay tons of money to sit on their ass doing nothing but eating shit food while they pretend they're the "XXth player" on the team when in reality no one on the team really gives a fuck about the city they "represent" in some quasi-tribal pseudo warfare, they just shrug and go back to trying to find player's medical reports or whatever.

I will make the qualification that despite the universally low quality of professional athletes, Lebron James is constantly doing really great things here in Akron locally and seems to have a strong sense of connection to the city, especially to children's causes. I'm glad I changed my mind at the last minute about running onto the court when he was in high school and beating on his knees and hips with a claw hammer.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 13, 2008, 09:14:09 AM
I will make the qualification that despite the universally low quality of professional athletes, Lebron James is constantly doing really great things here in Akron locally and seems to have a strong sense of connection to the city, especially to children's causes. I'm glad I changed my mind at the last minute about running onto the court when he was in high school and beating on his knees and hips with a claw hammer.

... it's the feel good hit of the summer.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Murgos on December 13, 2008, 09:21:59 AM
My office is very nerd-centric.  Many people actually know what WoW is and it's not hard to find someone actively playing, usually because they are surfing WoW forums all day.

However, you can start a fantasy sports conversation with anyone.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tarami on December 13, 2008, 05:22:31 PM
I can't say I disagree. I wouldn't have hired me in 2006.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: FatuousTwat on December 13, 2008, 05:29:19 PM
I spend most of my free time either gaming or reading sci-fi or fantasy.

So, pretty much nothing to bring up in any social situation, unless I want a bunch of morons staring at me.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Malakili on December 13, 2008, 05:29:52 PM
Those darn kids, next thing you know they'll be hanging in pool halls, and saying things like "sure" and "swell!"

(The ladies gasp and swoon) "Ooooooo!"

We got trouble!
(Trouble! Trouble!)
Right here in River City!
(Right here in River City!)
With a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool!
THAT STANDS FOR POOL! I SAY YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL BE FRITTERIN AWAY!!!!11 FUCKING FRITTEREN OMFG WATCHTHETAIL50DKPMINUS111!!!!!!11111

This just made my entire day better.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 13, 2008, 09:22:42 PM
Those darn kids, next thing you know they'll be hanging in pool halls, and saying things like "sure" and "swell!"

(The ladies gasp and swoon) "Ooooooo!"

We got trouble!
(Trouble! Trouble!)
Right here in River City!
(Right here in River City!)
With a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool!
THAT STANDS FOR POOL! I SAY YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL BE FRITTERIN AWAY!!!!11 FUCKING FRITTEREN OMFG WATCHTHETAIL50DKPMINUS111!!!!!!11111

Yeah, I meant to say, that was awesome.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 13, 2008, 09:24:34 PM
I can't say I disagree. I wouldn't have hired me in 2006.

Would you hire you now? I mean, has it made you less employable for life? Or did you go back to being as employable as before, or more so?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kERRA on December 13, 2008, 10:44:37 PM
I can't say I disagree. I wouldn't have hired me in 2006.

Would you hire you now? I mean, has it made you less employable for life? Or did you go back to being as employable as before, or more so?
If the end result of WoW addiction made him more employable, would you want him in the middle of it?  Even back in Meridian 59 days, the hardcore players struck me as people I'd hesitate to hire for time-sensitive jobs.  Pardon the edit; I hit enter with a Jack-in-the-box cup.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 13, 2008, 11:47:26 PM
Shrug. Everybody does something when they're not working. Just as an example, (and to be clear I do not do this, it's very illegal) I would love to avoid hiring married people with young children. Nothing sucks more time than kids, and children are always prioritized over work. I've had major problems with parents in the past. Major, major problems. If it weren't illegal, I'd hire the unkempt surly gamer with a neckbeard over the married professional guy with a lovely wife and infant at home any day of the week. Any day, any way. If only it were possible.

I also wouldn't hire anyone over 50, women, or cripples. Old people leave at 4:59:59.999, women get married and quit working or take long maternity leaves or sue your ass for harassment, and no matter what they may think, being unable to hobble with that crutch faster than 0.4MPH does impair your ability to do a white collar job, Quasimodo. But hey, all illegal.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sinij on December 14, 2008, 04:45:06 AM
Just like I wouldn't talk with anyone who is not involved in it about my sex life, I wouldn't discuss my gaming habits. For example I wouldn't discuss WoW at my BDSM meets, they would think I am a pervert.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 14, 2008, 06:21:19 AM
Just like I wouldn't talk with anyone who is not involved in it about my sex life, I wouldn't discuss my gaming habits. For example I wouldn't discuss WoW at my BDSM meets, they would think I am a pervert.

But you could talk about Sociolotron.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 14, 2008, 07:34:10 AM
If I were playing an MMOG, I would never let a potential employer or recruiter know about it.

It's a good red flag for employers, like the GED.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Xuri on December 14, 2008, 12:02:54 PM
What if your potential employer is a MMOG-development company?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ookii on December 14, 2008, 12:54:45 PM
I totally agree with this as well.  My co-worker is a WoW player and that is all he does all do, read about WoW and post on WoW forums. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Surlyboi on December 14, 2008, 12:59:47 PM
I wouldn't hire a WoW player to wipe my ass.

That said, the Music Man reference was a slice of fried gold.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tarami on December 14, 2008, 02:00:45 PM
I can't say I disagree. I wouldn't have hired me in 2006.

Would you hire you now? I mean, has it made you less employable for life? Or did you go back to being as employable as before, or more so?
I would. I think I'm a more motivated worker post-WoW, mostly because it made me realize a few things about myself. Had me burned, if you like to put it that way. Every time when I think back at how I largely wasted two years and without really picking up any professional skill, it drives me to work harder. Every cloud has a silver lining.

But I still wouldn't have hired me back then.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 15, 2008, 07:59:32 AM
I think a lot of people go through and have gone through this. We all reach a point where we "peak" in obsession. Some try to keep that peak for much longer than they should. Others recognize that event for what it is: a wakeup call. My own was SWG circa 2002 when I probably spent 3/4 of my daytime and all of my night managing my energy business and city (with Slack). I'm glad I went through it because I've since largely been able to keep my distance since. Occasionally I might raid for a few weeks, but mostly I realize the depth of obsession I had then is pretty much done unless I want to change my lifestyle, which i don't.

It's around that time I started to observe how what people think they want in a game can be biased by how they used to be able to game. And I'm reminded of this for myself each time I try Eve again. I just can't do it. My lifestyle really does not support the way in which I want to play it, and there's better options for me for the kinds of things I can have fun in nowadays (get in, quest or fight, get out).


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 15, 2008, 08:00:57 AM
So basically the thread boils down to "don't hire someone with an addiction, they might have conflicting priorities from the company" gotcha.

However, the OP's recruiter is pretty silly, considering that "don't hire WoW players" as avoiding that behavior is akin to "don't hire anyone who goes near the beer on beer fridays"

Avoid people who won't do work, but you're cutting yourself pretty badly if you eliminate a giant pool of potential recruits immediately. I will say that I get a bad vibe if people bring up video games or any other has-nothing-to-do-with-anything subject during an interview, but that's usually because I assume they're trying to run out the clock on real questions.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Comstar on December 15, 2008, 08:49:20 AM
I thought the current conventional wisdom when hiring someone is you want someone who fits the current office culture. IE- if the office culture is to talk about the latest WoW patch notes and why hunters need to be nerfed, it's a good fit for both sides.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lum on December 15, 2008, 02:39:35 PM
Generally in the gaming industry, of course, there's nothing wrong with 'admitting' to playing the most popular MMO of all time. It's more unusual when someone *doesn't* play WoW. Here at Webwars I'd say we have 2 hardcore raiders, 4 or 5 casuals (I count myself there) and the rest (4-5) play shooters or strategy games.

Of course it's not *always* a good thing. I interviewed a designer once who was really burned out and asked what he did at his last job, and got "played WoW all day" as a response. Without irony.



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 16, 2008, 09:01:04 AM
Eep, I (accidentally) got this thread BoingBoinged. 1070 guests viewing. Hi, guests.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: ashrik on December 16, 2008, 09:04:03 AM
Hello, gamer forum (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/15/should-employers-dis.html).

For the record, I don't think it's okay for employers to discriminate against MMO players. But on the other hand, I find it perfectly acceptable to exclude people who think discussing their MMO habits in an interview is a good thing. It's funny like that.

Although I'm sure that there are employers out there who'd like to know that 90% of the time, when you're not at work, you're at a computer.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slayerik on December 16, 2008, 09:10:58 AM
It's just like any vice. Control it or it controls you.

And like any vice, don't admit to it in an interview!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: fuser on December 16, 2008, 09:30:14 AM
I play WoW, I avoid the forums. Maybe search something on wowhead or mmo-champion for news time to time. If I have downtime and want to relax I'll take a look. But hell who doesn't lookup or pursue something of personal interest if they can at work.

It's all in moderation, no matter if its WoW, fantasy leagues, facebook, youtube/collagehumor(any video site of the day) your going to find people who are going to waste sometime. The problem is when people do it to excess, that it effects their work. Interviews are strictly suppose to avoid any personal questions as it can be used for discrimination but a counter to it, every time I have had one questions like "what sites do you visit for news to keep up on technology"  came up.

btw, a great answer would be infinite solutions (http://www.marksinfinitesolutions.com/tutorials/)..


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: gehrig38 on December 16, 2008, 09:33:08 AM
Hit your milestones, meet your deadlines and put out kick ass content, assets, code, and I don't care what you do away from work.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 16, 2008, 09:46:21 AM
Hit your milestones, meet your deadlines and put out kick ass content, assets, code, and I don't care what you do away from work.

Unless it's insider trading.  :awesome_for_real:

But really, the only reason to be concerned about WoW players at the office is if deployments keep getting delayed due to "naxx night"


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: bleeder2112 on December 16, 2008, 10:11:30 AM
I am an owner of a technology company, and am also the manager of all of the technicians.

There was one instance where I had a SERIOUSLY ADDICTED EQ2 player working for me, and I have to say that it SO SERIOUSLY affected his performance that I had to let him go.

It was SO BAD that I:

- Had to block outbound RDP because he was RDP-ing to his desktop at home to play during idle time at work (which wasn't really idle time it was just time that the phone wasn't ringing, we had PLENTY to do, as I'm sure all consultants know).
- Had to block other random ports when he figured out how to run RDP on a non-standard port (like the next day, he wasn't dumb...)
- Had to tell him to shave because I could'nt send him to clients looking like that
- Had to tell him to go home and come back the next day rested enough to be effective (the new EQ2 world of whatever came out that week so he was up all hours playing it)
- Since he was a guild leader or something and posted FURIOUSLY on forums all day, I had to sit down and tell him that this was not important during working hours and he had to realize what was inevitable if he could not curtail his "addiction"

It was such a horrible problem!  I really tried to work it out, to get him to realize how ridiculous it was that we even had to be having the conversation when REAL LIFE was at stake.

I've played these games myself, and it's easy to get caught up in it, but after spending 3-4 hours one night MINING, CRAFTING, and doing whatever other "work" you needed to perform in order to better your character in this fake world I thought "This is the most retarded time sink I've ever fallen into!" and quit.  Completely.  It was fun, but man...

And after seeing someone do this to themselves and lose their job over it, I can honestly say that I agree with the person that said that they should avoid hiring people that play WoW, etc...

I understand that the addicts may respond to this post furiously as well, as it rubs against the grain of their carefully crafted rationalization (I can function in real life JUST FINE and play online games for 14 hours each day), but really, come on, can you honestly say that RUNNING A GUILD parallels leadership qualities in real life?  I mean, maybe a LITTLE, but mostly I think it's just a problem when it gets to the level that some people get to.  AT LEAST IN THE CASE OF THIS EX-EMPLOYEE, I found this to be true.  Maybe I'm over generalizing, but I have a lot of friends that fell into the same trap.  SO, if you have a gaming problem to the point that your rationalization includes "MMOG Leadership qualities" I think you need to do a reality check.  As it is, reading REDDIT once an hour causing me issues at work, imagine having the NEED to play an online game? 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on December 16, 2008, 10:15:51 AM
Made Massively too. (http://www.massively.com/2008/12/16/employers-screening-wow-players-during-recruitment/)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: fuser on December 16, 2008, 10:19:51 AM
Made Massively too. (http://www.massively.com/2008/12/16/employers-screening-wow-players-during-recruitment/)

It made reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7jtem/recruiter_told_not_to_hire_wow_players/)'s front page too. Good job on keeping SMF going guys  :drill:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lucas on December 16, 2008, 10:30:30 AM
Hit your milestones, meet your deadlines and put out kick ass content, assets, code, and I don't care what you do away from work.

Yep, guess it goes down to that; the "tendency" might indicate it is just wishful thinking when it comes to MMOGs, but again, at least for now, we can only gather a collection of single, positive and negative (like the one posted above by Bleeder) experiences.

(hello 1184 anonymous cowards/lurkers guests :P)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on December 16, 2008, 11:03:11 AM
I know of someone whose wife took their kids and left him and whose friends gave up on him because of his particular obssession. It made him quite ill in the end and he was advised by his doctor to take it easy. Recruiters would probably have loved him though because his obssession was work: he was a high-flyer in some company and he spent all of his time in the office and all of his time away from the office thinking about or doing stuff for work.

Last I heard, he'd been been made redundant.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: trias_e on December 16, 2008, 11:21:10 AM
Quote
I've played these games myself, and it's easy to get caught up in it, but after spending 3-4 hours one night MINING, CRAFTING, and doing whatever other "work" you needed to perform in order to better your character in this fake world I thought "This is the most retarded time sink I've ever fallen into!" and quit.  Completely.  It was fun, but man...

Getting seriously addicted to these games usually requires a sort of disconnect from the world around you in the first place.  Whether it's an issue of incompetence, apathy, or active hatred of the 'real world'.  One friend of mine who has played 15 hours a day and wasted his college years, simply has no prospects.  Never had a girlfriend, never had a job that fulfilled him in any way.  His playing is a reaction to a view of the outside world as both inaccessible and a waste of time.*

Is it any surprise that a peon might choose to live in a fantasy world where he has influence and is well known and liked?  I guarantee his job didn't fulfill him in the same way that playing the game did.  Which is kind of a sad state of affairs.  There's no doubt also a large impact from failure and/or withdrawal from the mating game, which is one of the biggest motivators to make money and be socially successful in the first place.  Games like this can offer escape from the harsh reality of being a male loser in the mating game (whether it be a genuine fact or simply a perception). 

*I've wasted my college years similarily, but as I simply cannot do something for 15 hours a day I mainly escape through a variety of activities including gaming, random interent browsing, basketball playing/watching, and alcohol.  : P.  I try to also 'escape' in what I consider good ways (reading philosophy, listening to good music, going on walks by myself or camping with friends), but these require effort, and the first things not so much.  

Anyways, yes, being totally addicted to a MMORPG is a sign that you don't care much for the real world, and thus will be doing just enough to scrape by.  Most WoW players aren't addicts though, so saying to not hire WoW players in general (which will be a massive percentage of the possible employee base in any technological field) is simply ridiculous.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nebu on December 16, 2008, 11:29:17 AM
Most workaholics I've known were that way because they would rather be at work than face their home life. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: MrHat on December 16, 2008, 11:47:45 AM
Most workaholics I've known were that way because they would rather be at work than face their home life. 

It's a fine line I think.  I've seen it both as the core problem of just really really preferring work to everything else and as a symptom of a shitty home life.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 16, 2008, 12:06:31 PM
Most workaholics I've known were that way because they would rather be at work than face their home life. 

A mmo addiction by any other name.....


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: naum on December 16, 2008, 12:38:53 PM
f13 gets boing-boing-ed (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/15/should-employers-dis.html)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Soln on December 16, 2008, 12:41:08 PM
you know, there's also sleep apnea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea) they could go after if they're worried about people tired at work.  But then that would be illegal unethical something.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Soln on December 16, 2008, 12:41:35 PM
f13 gets boing-boing-ed (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/15/should-employers-dis.html)

this too shall pass


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 16, 2008, 12:42:19 PM
I feel guilty over the likely bandwidth bill. :(


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 16, 2008, 12:46:24 PM
f13 gets boing-boing-ed (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/15/should-employers-dis.html)

this too shall pass

(via Raph Koster)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slayerik on December 16, 2008, 01:08:54 PM
I feel guilty over the likely bandwidth bill. :(

That's okay Raph, we still hate you.  :mob:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 16, 2008, 02:01:08 PM
I feel guilty over the likely bandwidth bill. :(

We would need to be on every major news aggregator every day all month long to even cap the bandwidth.

For the rest of you, does it matter? We don't have advertising. Unless guests donate, it's just a bigger number at the bottom.

The real question is: How many of these are WoW players looking for a job that can't get one because they don't put on their pants the same way as the rest of the world?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: HaemishM on December 16, 2008, 02:01:26 PM
The question isn't whether you would hire a WoW player (as we all know from the official forums that the likely chance of any WoW player being a complete mouth-breathing retard is high). But would you hire someone you knew from f13?

If so, can I send you my resume.  :why_so_serious:

Fake edit: No, I do not need a job.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 16, 2008, 02:02:36 PM
My employability in online media ... tricks to engage today's online users and make them click on stuff ... WoW players are probably too busy to click on my content.

Sometimes things do better than I expect :grin:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 16, 2008, 02:04:11 PM
I interviewed a designer once who was really burned out and asked what he did at his last job, and got "played WoW all day" as a response. Without irony.

The number of developers for whom this is true, I would imagine, just from folks I talk to, approaches an unsightly and unacceptable number.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Phildo on December 16, 2008, 02:50:24 PM
The US Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that over 10 million people are currently unemployed in the United States.  Blizzard tells us that over 11 million people play WoW.  Wrath of the Lich King came out right when the market really started turning to shit.  Gentlemen, we have not yet hit rock bottom.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Stormwaltz on December 16, 2008, 03:08:07 PM
And now Kotaku'd. (http://kotaku.com/5111403/job-recruiters-instructed-to-avoid-wow-players)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Soln on December 16, 2008, 03:10:39 PM
Quote
Having been a major MMO player for the better part of the past 8 years [which is older than some of WoW's sub base], I can't help but agree with the prospective employers' concerns.

too funny.  Everyone agrees.

edit: grammar snake


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 16, 2008, 03:12:00 PM
Of course they do, they're forced to, they've seen the WoW forums.

I also probably wouldn't hire someone who listened to Britney Spears on repeat, all day, every day.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Bunk on December 16, 2008, 03:21:10 PM
Roughly one third of our tech support department plays WoW. The company Operations Manager is the guild leader.

I think it's hard for the guys who do the interviews to hold it against potential employees when they all play it themselves. I can't imagine how much of the hiring pool of software tech support candidates would be reduced if you ruled out MMoG players.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: tazelbain on December 16, 2008, 03:26:11 PM
This is mostly crap.  There are tons of unemployable people.  A friend told me about a nuclear engineer that would come in late read the Bible for a few hours and go home early.  Should we not hire anyone who does any activity that people can become obsessed with?  It won't take WoW players long to realized they need to keep it to themselves.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 16, 2008, 03:32:18 PM
It won't take WoW players long to realized they need to keep it to themselves.

I don't know what made them think it was OK to ever ever ever bring up in an interview outside of the gaming industry anyway. I wouldn't want my employer to know my personal habits.

What next? Recruiter tells you to stay away from folks who are into "anal fisting with foreign objects."

Me thinks we're sharing too much.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: BitWarrior on December 16, 2008, 03:36:47 PM
It won't take WoW players long to realized they need to keep it to themselves.

It also won't take long for WoW players to spill the beans - likely before their probationary period is up. A hardcore WoW player when asked, "What did you do last night" would either need to be a consistently good lair or just not be a hardcore WoW player. That or take a look at the browsing history loaded with WoW forums, guild and fansites.

If the foreseen problem "worsens", clients of recruiters might ask them to specifically weed out WoW players (ie: going beyond asking what a person's hobbies and interests are and asking if they play WoW, just as someone might be asked the token addiction questions). In the end, it looks like (rightly) the industry has decided bringing a WoW addiction to the table isn't in their best interests.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Merusk on December 16, 2008, 05:21:29 PM
Poor Tale, everyone seems to think you were interviewing and said "Oh I play WoW, hire me."

Reading comprehension is hard.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 16, 2008, 05:32:44 PM
This is weird. Honestly when I'm being interviewed, I want to talk about my Crohn's disease. I want to tell people that my immune system occasionally fucks with my intestines. But...I honestly can't find a way to bring it up without grossing people out. It just doesn't seem appropriate to me. So I wait till after I get hired, and after it acts up, if it does indeed act up while I'm on the job.

This is a chronic disorder that is incurable, and typically makes me miss a couple weeks a year. Sure, people call in sick, but I guarantee I will be sick at least ten days per year because of crazy gut activity. That's not counting the occasional unrelated sniffles, or a bad reaction to my yearly flu shot. And also bear in mind that Crohn's disease is not specifically recognized as a disability to anybody but the people who live with it.

And the reaction? "Oh it's okay, I know someone with Crohn's, do what you gotta do, blah blah blah, we all get sick from time to time, etc etc etc."

So, like, okay, tons and tons of diarrhea is more acceptable than playing a video game. Really? How about I crap in a bowl and make you smell it, then make you smell my WoW CDs, and see which one you like better?!?!?!

I don't know what my point is. Maybe I just like to talk about bowls full of poop. ^-^


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: tazelbain on December 16, 2008, 05:38:12 PM
And now that you shared that all the people linked in from other sites now know now about your poo issues. GratS!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 16, 2008, 05:40:56 PM
And now that you shared that all the people linked in from other sites now know now about your poo issues. GratS!

(http://forums.f13.net/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=3946;type=avatar)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: K9 on December 16, 2008, 05:48:04 PM
This is weird. Honestly when I'm being interviewed, I want to talk about my Crohn's disease. I want to tell people that my immune system occasionally fucks with my intestines. But...I honestly can't find a way to bring it up without grossing people out. It just doesn't seem appropriate to me. So I wait till after I get hired, and after it acts up, if it does indeed act up while I'm on the job.

This is a chronic disorder that is incurable, and typically makes me miss a couple weeks a year. Sure, people call in sick, but I guarantee I will be sick at least ten days per year because of crazy gut activity. That's not counting the occasional unrelated sniffles, or a bad reaction to my yearly flu shot. And also bear in mind that Crohn's disease is not specifically recognized as a disability to anybody but the people who live with it.

And the reaction? "Oh it's okay, I know someone with Crohn's, do what you gotta do, blah blah blah, we all get sick from time to time, etc etc etc."

So, like, okay, tons and tons of diarrhea is more acceptable than playing a video game. Really? How about I crap in a bowl and make you smell it, then make you smell my WoW CDs, and see which one you like better?!?!?!

I don't know what my point is. Maybe I just like to talk about bowls full of poop. ^-^

I get your point, but then I also have Crohn's, albeit with a different presentation.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 16, 2008, 06:06:17 PM
Shit! Now we're linked from rpg.net. Now they're going to figure out where I steal get all my video game news from!  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 16, 2008, 06:11:30 PM
So, like, okay, tons and tons of diarrhea is more acceptable than playing a video game. Really? How about I crap in a bowl and make you smell it, then make you smell my WoW CDs, and see which one you like better?!?!?!

I think there is something of a more, uh, subtle distinction between WoW and Crohn's, and that's that Crohn's is not a voluntary activity, but if you want to crap in bowls for your recruiters I guess you could feel free.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 16, 2008, 06:20:18 PM
So, like, okay, tons and tons of diarrhea is more acceptable than playing a video game. Really? How about I crap in a bowl and make you smell it, then make you smell my WoW CDs, and see which one you like better?!?!?!

I think there is something of a more, uh, subtle distinction between WoW and Crohn's, and that's that Crohn's is not a voluntary activity, but if you want to crap in bowls for your recruiters I guess you could feel free.

HOORAY!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 16, 2008, 06:38:32 PM
I generally don't talk much about my gaming habits at work (apart from with my boss who wanted to network some FPS play on laptops that won't support anything new - we have talked Xbox 360 though). Given that no-one cares, I don't need to talk about it.

To be fair, I don't care about their hobbies either.

If I went to an interview and went on and on about how great MMO gaming was, I wouldn't expect to get the job either (unless it was for a MMO developer and they are unlikely to hire me anyway).



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Furiously on December 16, 2008, 08:51:50 PM
I just wanted to say, I'm posting furiously.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 16, 2008, 10:23:02 PM
Google Translation provides a funny article returned from 17173.com. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.17173.com%2Fcontent%2F2008-12-17%2F20081217101929998%2C1.shtml&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&history_state0=)

Quote
Recently, a foreign Warcraft players in the job when a strange encounter, the recruiters told him that he did not explicitly admit the "World of Warcraft (Area Video)," the player said this is the employer's instructions. The players are depressed, go to the Web site of the game f13.NET forum to describe their experiences.

"I and a recent recruitment (online media industry) met in the course of conversation I do not want to mention in the early 20th century, I spent a lot of time playing online games, mainly the" World of Warcraft "early Game. At that time I was EQ1, "Star Wars: Galaxies," and then "World of Warcraft" and crazy. But in 2006, I spent online in the few hours I fell in love with the beginning of the bike ride .

The recruiters said that employers in particular his instructions not to recruit players of Warcraft. He said that they can not be 100% of Warcraft players to work because they are more concerned about something else. Their sleep quality is not good, and so on. I replied that a person has the network of leadership experience as a favorable factor in career development or project management experience of learning channels. He shook his head to right, he has received clear instructions not to recruit players of Warcraft. ” "

In fact, playing "World of Warcraft" and in the field of career success has a lot of people, of whom Obama is the best-known public relations consultant Kevin Werbach, and basketball fans are familiar with the Yao Ming is "World of Warcraft," the faithful support Persons. And professional performance to say the game does not necessarily linked to the poor players have been dealt with, we can say now in the severe employment situation, the requirements of employers do more and more harsh. (文/17173 阿树) (/ Ashu 17173)

Tee-hee.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 16, 2008, 10:23:42 PM
Yeah, I can't see bringing it up either.  I think I mentioned playing MUDs to my boss once, and only in the context of "this program is written worse than my MUD's spaghetti code" or such.  Even then only because he would understand how bad I thought the code was.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 16, 2008, 10:27:22 PM
The players are depressed, go to the Web site of the game f13.NET forum to describe their experiences.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: stu on December 16, 2008, 10:31:19 PM
My best friend from high school recently stayed up all night playing Abandoned Realms (a MUD). He slept through his daughter's birthday party the next day. He and his baby's mama don't live together. Probly a good thing she has the kid.

When a potential employer asks me about my hobbies, I say, "Reading, writing, and playing sports."


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 16, 2008, 11:17:09 PM
My best friend from high school recently stayed up all night playing Abandoned Realms (a MUD). He slept through his daughter's birthday party the next day. He and his baby's mama don't live together. Probly a good thing she has the kid.

Gub'mint took mah bay-bee!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ghambit on December 17, 2008, 12:01:54 AM
Shoulda done the smart thing and taught his kid how to play the game.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: apocrypha on December 17, 2008, 01:44:05 AM
We had 2 WoW players (one of them me) in the last university department I worked in. Him and I were actually amongst the better workers in that place. Sure, we'd spend a certain amount of time each day talking about WoW and looking at WoW-related websites, but all the non-gamers spent an equal or greater amount of time looking at YouTube or horse riding websites or sport news sites, etc.

It's discrimination, pure and simple, it's the person that matters, not their hobbies. If they're going to be a useless fuck they're going to be a useless fuck irregardless of what their hobbies are.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 02:11:53 AM
Anyone know Danish? http://pc.boomtown.net/da_dk/articles/art.view.php?id=75238

Quote
Active use of World of Warcraft gives you not only sleep deprivation and a vocabulary of good turns, such as "gank" and "roflcopter". According to studies do you a better leader with more organizational overview.

It is however not all companies that look just positively to the WoW gaming. It tells a story about a man who was refused a job solely because of an active WoW account.

The story comes from f13.net Forum, where the user Speaking the other day genfortalte his last job.

Speech was to meet with a recruiting agent in the 'media industry'. The conversation slid curiously into the World of Warcraft. Here told the agent that he had received specific orders to weed out all applicants who are playing World of Warcraft. The attitude of the company was that WoW gamers rarely gives 100% of the work because they lack both the concentration and ... sleep. As the Voice reported on studies that showed positive aspects of playing MMORPG titles, the agent shook your head. Speech got no job.

It's like playing telephone with the internet.



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Phildo on December 17, 2008, 02:12:57 AM
all the non-gamers spent an equal or greater amount of time looking at YouTube or horse riding websites or sport news sites, etc.

People who ride horses must be stopped.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 02:24:50 AM
We had 2 WoW players (one of them me) in the last university department I worked in. Him and I were actually amongst the better workers in that place. Sure, we'd spend a certain amount of time each day talking about WoW and looking at WoW-related websites, but all the non-gamers spent an equal or greater amount of time looking at YouTube or horse riding websites or sport news sites, etc.

It's discrimination, pure and simple, it's the person that matters, not their hobbies. If they're going to be a useless fuck they're going to be a useless fuck irregardless of what their hobbies are.

Some hobbies very easily make people more useless than others. Sure, some people are functionally useful and they happen to play MMORPGs, but more often than not, if you're in a job where WoW-Types are going to be applying, it's probably best to find out the extent of their catassery. Of course it's unfair, and of course it's discrimination, but in most cases I'd say it's worthwhile to expect a certain amount of functional work out of employees.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 17, 2008, 02:57:58 AM
Taking 5 minutes to repeat the context:

* It wasn't a job interview. We were just doing lunch. I have a job already.
* We chatted about dozens of things ... I thought his brief games comment would interest others, so I posted it.
* Except for a couple of rainy days in nearly two years, I'm not a WoW player.
* Except for a burst of Conan at launch, the only thing I've played lately is Tabula Rasa to level 23 (one character, bursts of play, months apart). I wish they weren't shutting it down, because I might have reached level 50 by the year 2027.

Nowadays I need to stay fit, eat well and be at my mental peak every day, and I find that incompatible with MMO playing. So I see his point. Cycling is now a much better hobby for me. But I've nothing against WoW players and I'm still fascinated by the future of MMOs, and the intelligent crowd on f13.net is great to chat with, so I hang out here ... or in the politics forum  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: IainC on December 17, 2008, 03:28:33 AM
To be fair, some WoW guilds won't accept anyone with a full time job so I guess it's just some quid pro quo...


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Sunbury on December 17, 2008, 07:03:42 AM
Speaking of WoW guilds, I've read rumors of some rich guy in Abu Dhabi forming/paying members of some guild just to be first to beat all the new content.  Forget where I read that, maybe FoH.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on December 17, 2008, 07:40:32 AM
Speaking of WoW guilds, I've read rumors of some rich guy in Abu Dhabi forming/paying members of some guild just to be first to beat all the new content.  Forget where I read that, maybe FoH.

"some rich guy" = son of the Crown Prince of Dubai
"Abu Dhabi" = "Dubai"
"some guild" = Ensidia, formerly Nihilum and SK-Gaming

They've never been quiet about their backing either - apart from keeping it anonymous.  From their website:

Quote
Ensidia is a joint effort by members of two of the top guilds in World of Warcraft, with the support and endorsement of a private entity based in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. Our guilds have made being at the forefront of PVE progression our modus operandi since the first installment of this game and, as Ensidia, we will continue to do so.

So - recruited precisely because they were WoW players.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Triforcer on December 17, 2008, 07:57:51 AM
This is fun!!  My turn...

I heard that Blagojevich was going to trade Obama's Senate seat for a fully decked out Death Knight with T8 epics. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 17, 2008, 08:17:11 AM
Playing WoW helped me learn a lot about people, management, sincerity, given situations, the world and myself (++ etc.).

Just like drugs, it is not the drug, but the person, that is the problem.
  • Person finds drug
  • Person becomes obsessed with drug
  • Person deals with the obsession in some kind of way
  • Person, depending on intelligence, learns something

Generally, what I see is that a person obsessed with something most probably will handle prioritization in a poor way, unless that person just gets it or has learned from previous experiences of obsession or something somewhat similar.

Intelligent people (ie. people who posess the ability to learn and profit from experience) will be more capable in general after such experience.
Guild Masters reflect long-term leaders. Raid Leaders reflect short-term leaders (ie. project leaders). Raiders reflect regular employees. PvPers reflect one-man-army people (ie. company founders, overpriced consultants)
They all learn a little or a lot about the world and their place in it. Playing WoW doesn't isolate you from the world - it's just like going on vacation to Thailand - you still live in the same world.

I, personally, have been in all these roles; learned what I am good/bad at, like to do and what to improve. Along the road I have severely increased my skills in such as: Oral English, General Management, Conflict-handling, Judging Applications, Creating Applications, Constructive Criticism, Practical Mathematics, Analyzing Multi-Factor situations, Group-Work aka. Cooperation, Socializing (with different kinds of people), Different People Categories (and what to expect from whom)... the list goes on. I can't say it was a bad experience, or a waste of time, but that I feel I want to move on.
And still I know I have much to learn - I do not think I am a superhero - and I have just above basic experience in many fields of life.

Intelligent and determined people playing MMO's like WoW may, in theory, increase their mental age faster since MMO's is a reflection of Real-Life just with faster cycles of things. Increasing your mental age basically means you gain a higher IQ (average Mental Age / Chronological Age times 100, of people at your chronological age).

Declining an application from an intelligent and determined person on the basis of his previous MMO experiences is the exact opposite of what one should do. Although this topic was about people currently playing WoW (or MMO's), I still want to say: Evaluate the person. If he plays WoW, you should ask him what he does in the game and what his role is like and whether or not he is prepared for cutting down on the dedication, if, say he is a Guild Master or a hardcore raider.

Based on my experiences so far, though, I would think twice before hiring someone currently engaged in raiding. And thinking twice means I'd evaluate the person - have him tell me a story or something, then schedule a meeting later in the week so both myself and the applicant could think of whatever might need to be thought of.



That said; some posts here made me realize that even though everyone take 5min at work to surf news or whatever, just to take a break, I should consider skipping forum-talk and such at work from now on.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 17, 2008, 08:32:58 AM
Playing MMOs has taught me to touch type at a decent speed.

The rest of it: I'm a bit more friendly online to get over the impersonality of text. But I'm still me. While in theory you might learn organisational skills from running raids or something, this isn't particularly like to carry over to the real world unless your co-workers love hearing "Where's my fucking heal?" or "DPS NOW BITCHES!" screamed repeatedly at them. And then they can see you dive in, grab the report off the printer while yelling "LEEEEERRRROOOOYYY!!!" as you then sprint for the door.

Can MMOs teach you things? Sure. But what they teach you most is how to play that particular MMO. The rest is unintended and mostly unproven gravy that varies greatly depending on the MMO and the individual.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: JWIV on December 17, 2008, 08:34:24 AM
Once upon a time, my former boss saw I had monkly-business up and exclaimed that he used to play a monk in EQ as well!  We exchanged the sekrit we pulled for a fucking living and fuck you <insert other class here> for stealing our jorbs fist jab followed by the What the Fuck Were We Thinking Playing the Online Equivalent of Roshambo face palm and went about our day.



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nevermore on December 17, 2008, 08:50:41 AM
Taking 5 minutes to repeat the context:

* It wasn't a job interview. We were just doing lunch. I have a job already.
* We chatted about dozens of things ... I thought his brief games comment would interest others, so I posted it.
* Except for a couple of rainy days in nearly two years, I'm not a WoW player.
* Except for a burst of Conan at launch, the only thing I've played lately is Tabula Rasa to level 23 (one character, bursts of play, months apart). I wish they weren't shutting it down, because I might have reached level 50 by the year 2027.

Nowadays I need to stay fit, eat well and be at my mental peak every day, and I find that incompatible with MMO playing. So I see his point. Cycling is now a much better hobby for me. But I've nothing against WoW players and I'm still fascinated by the future of MMOs, and the intelligent crowd on f13.net is great to chat with, so I hang out here ... or in the politics forum  :oh_i_see:


I play WoW obsessively!  Please hire me!

Unfortunately, this is what all the outsiders looking for a sensationalistic story will see.

By the way, how many people here a posting from work?  :grin:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 17, 2008, 08:58:37 AM
Taking 5 minutes to repeat the context:

* It wasn't a job interview. We were just doing lunch. I have a job already.
* We chatted about dozens of things ... I thought his brief games comment would interest others, so I posted it.
* Except for a couple of rainy days in nearly two years, I'm not a WoW player.
* Except for a burst of Conan at launch, the only thing I've played lately is Tabula Rasa to level 23 (one character, bursts of play, months apart). I wish they weren't shutting it down, because I might have reached level 50 by the year 2027.

Nowadays I need to stay fit, eat well and be at my mental peak every day, and I find that incompatible with MMO playing. So I see his point. Cycling is now a much better hobby for me. But I've nothing against WoW players and I'm still fascinated by the future of MMOs, and the intelligent crowd on f13.net is great to chat with, so I hang out here ... or in the politics forum  :oh_i_see:


I play WoW obsessively!  Please hire me!

Unfortunately, this is what all the outsiders looking for a sensationalistic story will see.

By the way, how many people here a posting from work?  :grin:

All.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Draegan on December 17, 2008, 09:33:44 AM
I'm posting from work!

I once said I was a bartender at a job interview.  After some joking I think they thought I was an alcoholic.

The might of been right.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Signe on December 17, 2008, 09:35:17 AM
You're drunk right now, aren't you?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tarami on December 17, 2008, 09:43:45 AM
What? You can get Internet at home?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Draegan on December 17, 2008, 10:11:39 AM
You're drunk right now, aren't you?

No.  :heartbreak:  I have a breathalyzer attached to my computer.  The internet shuts off when I blow over the legal limit.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Yegolev on December 17, 2008, 10:59:03 AM
Eep, I (accidentally) got this thread BoingBoinged. 1070 guests viewing. Hi, guests.

With great power comes great responsibility.

There was a guy who got hired here when I did for the same job I was.  He had actual UNIX experience while I was a rank newb.  He was let go during a round of layoffs (either 2000 or 2002 I think) and the consensus is that it was because he would log into EQ as soon as his ass hit his chair, even when he was being directly observed by management.  One time he was being not-so-casually observed by one of the headchoppers.  Everyone in the room knew what was going on except this guy.  I might feel bad for introducing him to EQ except that he was largely a dumbass.

I don't necessarily agree with the principle behind denying WoW players from hiring consideration, but I do understand why it is a practice.  It gets the low-hanging-fruit: the guy who tells the recruiter that he plays WoW.  During a normal interview, your hobbies consist of reading and spending time with your family.  Also, you did not just have a baby and you "don't touch the stuff".


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: MrHat on December 17, 2008, 11:15:10 AM
  During a normal interview, your hobbies consist of reading and spending time with your family.  Also, you did not just have a baby and you "don't touch the stuff".

This is true.  Basically: "hanging out with friends, seeing my family when I can, I like to read.  Been trying to pick up golf and get back into [sport].  For some serious downtime I'll watch a bit of TV, maybe load up a video game, how about you?"


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: chargerrich on December 17, 2008, 11:19:03 AM
I can't say I disagree. I wouldn't have hired me in 2006.

Would you hire you now? I mean, has it made you less employable for life? Or did you go back to being as employable as before, or more so?
I would. I think I'm a more motivated worker post-WoW, mostly because it made me realize a few things about myself. Had me burned, if you like to put it that way. Every time when I think back at how I largely wasted two years and without really picking up any professional skill, it drives me to work harder. Every cloud has a silver lining.

But I still wouldn't have hired me back then.


I completely get your point. I know some people who have let the game become an addiction to the detement of their personal, home and work life.

That being said, some of us like myself imposed balance and self discipline. I could easily play 40 hours a week but I dont. I have played and loved the game since retail launch (sans my ill fated attempt to play WAR). I have also had a few "wasted wow weekends" where I look back Sunday evening and say WTF! That motivates me to not extend the weekend into a week, month or life.

In fact, for me personally the game has motivated me to go back and get my Masters. So I take night classes 4 nights a week and play on most weekends. And aside from some lunch time browsing, I do work at work... in fact my employer might reap the benefit of my Masters degree that may well be acquired in no small part BECAUSE of WoW!  :thumbs_up:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 17, 2008, 11:23:24 AM
(http://www.gucomics.com/comics/2008/gu_20081209.jpg)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: tazelbain on December 17, 2008, 11:25:34 AM
So the pictures of the necrotopsy I did on a squirrel I "found" is out of the question?  These are some helpful hints!

Sadly, for many people they are helpful.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Yegolev on December 17, 2008, 11:27:26 AM
You don't want to mention the vidya games unless it's someplace you know it will get you points.  The "what are you hobbies?" question is one of those bits meant to cull the crazies, and personally I like to avoid offering any extraneous information.  If I say "Reading" and they say "No, really" then I might say "I watch some football on the weekend, work on that honey-do list".  If they ask again, I figure something is wrong.  However this all depends on where you are applying.  If I was sitting across a folding table in a ministorage office and applying for a job making flash games for a twentysomething, I'd probably say "You know, reading technical manuals" at first, followed by "well, I check out things on Kongregate, play some Peggle, a little Rock Band on the weekends" or some other bullshit.

On the other hand, saying you have a kid in school is good because that shit is hard.  If you are a successful father/husband, your WoW playing isn't going to be a factor since you obviously know how to manage your time.  I still wouldn't mention games, though, even if it was chess.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Goreschach on December 17, 2008, 11:28:46 AM

Sadly, for many people they are helpful.

This is really fucking annoying, and it needs to die.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: tazelbain on December 17, 2008, 11:33:12 AM
o/\o


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 17, 2008, 12:11:08 PM
Intelligent people (ie. people who posess the ability to learn and profit from experience) will be more capable in general after such experience.
Guild Masters reflect long-term leaders. Raid Leaders reflect short-term leaders (ie. project leaders). Raiders reflect regular employees. PvPers reflect one-man-army people (ie. company founders, overpriced consultants)
They all learn a little or a lot about the world and their place in it. Playing WoW doesn't isolate you from the world - it's just like going on vacation to Thailand - you still live in the same world.

I'd like to elaborate on what I wrote here...

There are also those people who actually do not learn very well - which might be because they have a generally bad attitude towards learning, that may arise for different reasons, or they may just be less intelligent - maybe even retarded. I have seen people who just plain suck. Then I see them make an application a few months later, and they still just plain suck. As time passes I may have seen them again, and they still just plain suck. They keep failing, continuously, and do not improve. This is a general concern in the world though, not just with kids and games. However, when the world sees these people, they see them as representatives. That causes a negative effect, since the majority of people in this world lack the ability of cognitive thinking and/or prefer to go-with-the-flow rather than asking themselves: is there more to this world than just my own knowledge?

I have two rather interesting examples, of two people playing WoW, but not even trying to be good at it:
  • The first one is a friend of mine. He played a Rogue. I came to his apartment one day, while he was playing. What I saw was intensive Sinister Strike spam - NOTHING ELSE. He used ONE ability. So I asked him: Dude, why are you just spamming that one ability? You have like tons of other stuff you can use, which also makes it more interesting to play. His response was somewhat like this: No. Why would I do that? I think this is fun, just the way it is. And naturally he grew bored of the game after a month or two.
  • The second guy was my ex's little-brother; about 13 years-old or something. He talked a lot about WoW when I was around, and I made conversations with him about the subject. Then I saw him playing one day. He was also playing a Rogue, and was currently stealthing towards an enemy; He said, with excitement: Watch, just watch now *stealthing* and then he stealthed up to the enemy and started SMASHING EVERY KEYBOARD BUTTON FROM 1- TO -9 and, stunned as I was, I said: Dude, why... are you spamming random buttons? Why are you just facerolling the game? And he smiled and just said he didn't really care - he wanted to be good, but he didn't even read about what anything did. He just keybinded everything he had and practically facerolled his way through the game.

That is the world we live in, and it is of my belief, that these people are the reason for the expression known as facepalm.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Vash on December 17, 2008, 12:39:10 PM

That is the world we live in, and it is of my belief, that these people are the reason for the expression known as facepalm.

At least they weren't clickers used keybindings .....  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Montague on December 17, 2008, 02:37:39 PM
Raph's post just made the WoW general forums.  :mob:

What hath God wrought??


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tarami on December 17, 2008, 02:38:18 PM
I completely get your point. I know some people who have let the game become an addiction to the detement of their personal, home and work life.

That being said, some of us like myself imposed balance and self discipline. I could easily play 40 hours a week but I dont. I have played and loved the game since retail launch (sans my ill fated attempt to play WAR). I have also had a few "wasted wow weekends" where I look back Sunday evening and say WTF! That motivates me to not extend the weekend into a week, month or life.

In fact, for me personally the game has motivated me to go back and get my Masters. So I take night classes 4 nights a week and play on most weekends. And aside from some lunch time browsing, I do work at work... in fact my employer might reap the benefit of my Masters degree that may well be acquired in no small part BECAUSE of WoW!  :thumbs_up:
You're pretty full of shit. You, like, can have a problem if you choose to, but you like, chose not to. You know what it is to be a heroinist, because you've been high on pot a couple of times. That's the pretty much the opposite of having a problem. Truth is that you don't understand the nature of the word problem at all, given your lecturing.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 02:40:35 PM
Raph's post just made the WoW general forums.  :mob:

What hath God wrought??

Well, that thread will most certainly be a good argument FOR the case of not hiring WoW players.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 02:43:49 PM
Also, what the hell.

Why did this story gain so much traction? Is the gaming world so surprised that recruiters would err away from WoW players? I mean, the addiction some folks have with WoW and other MMOGs is pretty easily comparable to degenerate gambling. Why does this shock everyone? COMEON PEOPLE, almost certainly more interesting things have happened in the gaming world than some recruiter deciding WoW players are functionally useless to society. :uhrr:

Edit: Word jumble.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: tazelbain on December 17, 2008, 02:47:11 PM
Hmm, can we put any more gasoline on this fire?

I hear the CIA is looking to hire WoW players now that they are being trained to torture....


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 02:49:38 PM
Hmm, can we put any more gasoline on this fire?

I hear the CIA is looking to hire WoW players now that they are being trained to torture....
That doesn't even make sense.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 02:51:26 PM
Also, someone should really compile all the links to the original story (not it!) just to have a listing of how many editors and writers can't either 1. Read, or 2. Link to the proper place. I can only assume most games-writers are currently WoW players given the quality of their work.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Trippy on December 17, 2008, 03:00:22 PM
Hmm, can we put any more gasoline on this fire?

I hear the CIA is looking to hire WoW players now that they are being trained to torture....
That doesn't even make sense.
There's a quest in WoW now where you torture somebody to extract information:

http://games.slashdot.org/games/08/12/16/0610204.shtml


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: JWIV on December 17, 2008, 03:13:25 PM
Also, what the hell.

Why did this story gain so much traction? Is the gaming world so surprised that recruiters would err away from WoW players? I mean, the addiction some folks have with WoW and other MMOGs is pretty easily comparable to degenerate gambling. Why does this shock everyone? COMEON PEOPLE, almost certainly more interesting things have happened in the gaming world than some recruiter deciding WoW players are functionally useless to society. :uhrr:

Edit: Word jumble.

Because 90% of the WoW playerbase can't fucking fathom that poopsocking is not a marketable skill (unless you're doing it for the good of The Company).  Or that they are somehow so god damn entitled to a job that spending 7hrs board trolling and TALKING ABOUT YOUR GOD DAMN CHARACTER could ever possibly be held against you.





Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Yegolev on December 17, 2008, 03:19:46 PM

You should have put that in the "WoW/Wii is making gamers stupider" thread.  I don't recall which one that is, but I'm sure you can find it.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fraeg on December 17, 2008, 03:23:39 PM
To be fair, some WoW guilds won't accept anyone with a full time job so I guess it's just some quid pro quo...


I guess I should not be surprised but that just blows me away.  I can see it now:

"Uber guild XYZ  is looking for IRL underachievers who want to overachieve online."


As for the original post, I can certainly see how, without knowing too much about MMO's how companies kneejerk reaction would be to avoid the WoW. Not a shocker really. Obviousely the real issue is: Employees with an addiction are not a good thing to have.

The thing that tickles me at work (as others have mentioned) is the fantasy league stuff.   At my work any nearly all gaming related sites are blocked. Quarter-to-three, IGN, VN, Wow forums, penny arcade, corpnews, massively, etc.  you name it, it is blocked (f13 and brokentoys are really about the only things i can visit from work).  However, sports illustrated, espn, and fantasy league sites, like fantasyleaguelive.com are left unblocked.

I can't even read a review of a video game on my lunch break, after hours whatever.  But if i wanted to do fantasy league related things until the cows came home I could. :headscratch:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 17, 2008, 03:37:20 PM
It's been great fun watching f13 spreading to these other sites because of Raph and Tale's tale. I think I missed the major guest invasion.

Err...on topic? I can see the logic behind what the recruiter is being told as I myself have been known to stay up too late and end up half asleep at work the next day due to MMOs.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 03:38:07 PM
Hmm, can we put any more gasoline on this fire?

I hear the CIA is looking to hire WoW players now that they are being trained to torture....
That doesn't even make sense.
There's a quest in WoW now where you torture somebody to extract information:

http://games.slashdot.org/games/08/12/16/0610204.shtml
Oh, I thought it was some other kind of joke and he meant "trained to be tortured." Like, playing the same 4 year old game every day doing the same activities with the same people. Monotony is torture.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: voodoolily on December 17, 2008, 03:45:41 PM
Everything I learned about basic html I learned from f13. Sad, but true.

Also, the last computer-y guy we hired (GIS) was indignant when I asked him "so, whaddya play?" Indignant! Perhaps a bit of an assumption on my part, true, but I didn't not expect his verbal shitstorm about what losers gamers are. It smacked of diversionary tactics, methinks.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 17, 2008, 03:48:15 PM
Everything I learned about basic html I learned from f13. Sad, but true.

Also, the last computer-y guy we hired (GIS) was indignant when I asked him "so, whaddya play?" Indignant! Perhaps a bit of an assumption on my part, true, but I didn't not expect his verbal shitstorm about what losers gamers are. It smacked of diversionary tactics, methinks.

That, or denial.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 03:49:28 PM
Everything I learned about basic html I learned from f13. Sad, but true.

Also, the last computer-y guy we hired (GIS) was indignant when I asked him "so, whaddya play?" Indignant! Perhaps a bit of an assumption on my part, true, but I didn't not expect his verbal shitstorm about what losers gamers are. It smacked of diversionary tactics, methinks.

A girl asked a guy about games - think about it - you turned his brain into a toilet of awe and stupor. He didn't know what to do. So he did what everyone did to him in middle school and made fun of games.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 17, 2008, 03:54:31 PM
Losers.


I have an out, i am a graphic designer. So of course i tell them i "study" video gaming and user interfaces in modern real time applications. The sad part is, i do study them.... its not always about playing. Am i strange?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nija on December 17, 2008, 03:55:30 PM
Everybody is different. Storytime.

1999, Arkansas. I'm working on a huge project, rolling out about 8,000 PCs as well as network/WAN gear to 20 locations, working on a team of about a dozen people. Two of them are roommates.

One of them starts playing EQ. He's got a necromancer, and he talks about this as we carpool. I didn't think much of it, other than me poking some fun at him playing a lesser game than UO (keep in mind this is IT work in Arkansas in 1999. You obviously played video games at that point in space and time.) but I let him keep rolling with it. A couple weeks later, he misses a day, and then the next day, and the following day he shows up looking like total dogshit. Greasy. He was a skinny guy, so it wasn't a complete sensory overload. Unshaven, bedhead, red eyed -- the works. "Finally got it man, fuck!" is the first thing out of his mouth. "Got what, a VD?"  "Jboots man! It's awesome! I'm KING now! I had to camp the spawn for like 39 hours!"

He was fired before the end of the week. The story doesn't end there, as I did mention roommates above.

In the course of rolling out that many PCs, you lose some of them. It just happens.
At the end of summertime I get an invite from the one still working for an afternoon BBQ. I show up and everything is in the back yard, there's a bunch of people around hanging out. Nothing out of the ordinary. Then I'm invited to "check out their high tech setup" inside. In this nerd coven I spot about 8 machines that distinctly look like the ones we were rolling out. Sitting on another desk was a HP 4k series laser printer (1999!) that also looks distinctly familiar. Yep. One of them yanked all of that shit. Those two guys were multi-boxing EQ, taking turns running a total of 12 accounts I think. I never really got into EQ, so I don't know what the exact group size was, but they were running two groups. I never found out which guy stole the stuff. I didn't really ask.

The project came to a halt a few weeks after that BBQ, and the dozen people who had started it was down to just 3 remaining. The non-jboot-wearing roommate was one guy, there was myself, and there was another guy who isn't really relevant to this story. Only one of us walked away with a full time position, but it wasn't really a competition between 3 people. It was just between the 3rd guy and myself. Non-jboot guy ended up moving back in with his parents, at age 28, as the .com bubble was bursting and tech places were downsizing. I landed the full time job. The 3rd guy got hired on at a place as a Mac specialist and ended up in a very good place at a very good time. I've since lost contact with both of them. The end.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Modern Angel on December 17, 2008, 04:06:23 PM
This is weird. Honestly when I'm being interviewed, I want to talk about my Crohn's disease. I want to tell people that my immune system occasionally fucks with my intestines. But...I honestly can't find a way to bring it up without grossing people out. It just doesn't seem appropriate to me. So I wait till after I get hired, and after it acts up, if it does indeed act up while I'm on the job.

This is a chronic disorder that is incurable, and typically makes me miss a couple weeks a year. Sure, people call in sick, but I guarantee I will be sick at least ten days per year because of crazy gut activity. That's not counting the occasional unrelated sniffles, or a bad reaction to my yearly flu shot. And also bear in mind that Crohn's disease is not specifically recognized as a disability to anybody but the people who live with it.

And the reaction? "Oh it's okay, I know someone with Crohn's, do what you gotta do, blah blah blah, we all get sick from time to time, etc etc etc."

So, like, okay, tons and tons of diarrhea is more acceptable than playing a video game. Really? How about I crap in a bowl and make you smell it, then make you smell my WoW CDs, and see which one you like better?!?!?!

I don't know what my point is. Maybe I just like to talk about bowls full of poop. ^-^

Hi! You, too? Except I actually do tell my employers because I got fucked prior to bottoming out, being on disability and subsequently getting back on my feet. I'd rather employers know up front than go through the hassle afterward of dealing with it.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 17, 2008, 04:19:11 PM
By the way, how many people here a posting from work?  :grin:

(http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/ratman/compiling.png)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: voodoolily on December 17, 2008, 04:22:59 PM
It's a common courtesy to let your employer know of any medical conditions you have that may affect how often you're out. I include pregnancy in this camp. We just hired someone who, surprise! is just starting her second trimester. She wasn't showing when we interviewed (and didn't mention it), but now it's illegal to fire her, even though she'll only work for a few months before she milks our insurance on maternity leave.

I'm "working from home." Snow day ftw.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 04:29:28 PM
It's true. I've now worked at 2 places where women very obviously did not inform the employer they were pregnant. But since you're an evil fuckbag if you bag on a woman for anything involving pregnancy, no one cared to point out the problem with it.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Yoru on December 17, 2008, 05:12:58 PM

You should have put that in the "WoW/Wii is making gamers stupider" thread.  I don't recall which one that is, but I'm sure you can find it.

I was going to go for the "Attention whores responding to their own drivel because no one else is" thread, but I'm pretty sure he can find that one too.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Rhonstet on December 17, 2008, 05:19:30 PM
The people who would get discriminated against are the ones who would be the most likely to make a great impression otherwise.  A recruiter who doesn't suck doesn't have time to consider at personal interests like WoW; he's too busy tracking employment histories.  

The real basketcases who end up addicted to MMOs are likely to get filtered out by recruiters for reasons that aren't actually bullshit.  Someone who has been unemployed for a year is likely to have problems explaining away that hiatus: whether you were doing charity work or playing MMOs really doesn't matter as long as you can spin it well.

Recruiters discriminate against people all the time, for reasons far crappier than this (my personal favorite was the guy who refused to consider anyone who was an Eagles fan, because he said Eagles fans were dicks).  Its easier than doing their actual job of researching people's job histories and employer's management practices to match the two up.  



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 05:23:33 PM
Eagles fans ARE dicks though.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 05:47:09 PM
Boing Boing (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/15/should-employers-dis.html)
Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5111403/job-recruiters-instructed-to-avoid-wow-players)
Massively (http://www.massively.com/2008/12/16/employers-screening-wow-players-during-recruitment/)
Tweakers (http://tweakers.net/nieuws/57381/amerikaanse-headhunters-krijgen-opdracht-wow-spelers-af-te-wijzen.html)
PCGames.de (http://www.pcgames.de/aid,670797/World_of_Warcraft-Spieler_und_auf_Jobsuche_Keine_guten_Aussichten_/News/)
Gamestar.de (http://www.gamestar.de/news/pc/rollenspiel/online/1952103/world_of_warcraft.html)
Games Industry (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/employers-screening-world-of-warcraft-players)
WoWInsider (http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/12/16/do-wow-players-make-bad-employees/)
G4TV (http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/691813/World_of_Warcraft_May_Disqualify_You_for_a_Job_.html)
Silicon Alley Insider (http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/12/headhunter-employers-hate-world-of-warcraft-players)
MaximumPC (http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/job_recruiters_wow_players_gtfo)
Jeux Video (http://www.jeuxvideo.com/commentaires/9-0-30743-6-news_20081217-1-0-0.htm)
Project Lore (http://projectlore.com/blog/job-recruiters-avoid-wow-players/)
Yelp! (http://www.yelp.com/topic/chicago-recruiters-avoiding-wow-players)
Escapist (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/88188-Job-Recruiters-Told-Not-to-Hire-WoW-Players)
Game Politics (http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/12/17/are-employers-discriminating-against-wow-players)
Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/7js8o/recruiter_told_not_to_hire_wow_players/)
Meneame (http://meneame.net/story/prohiben-contrate-jugadores-world-of-warcraft-numero-significativo-ell)
Asylum (http://www.asylum.com/2008/12/16/does-world-of-warcraft-produce-bad-employees/)
College OTR (http://www.collegeotr.com/college_otr/should_employeers_discriminate_based_on_world_of_warcraft_16905)

There's probably about a hundred more in the stats, most linked from Raph's Blog (http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/). I would hereby like to call this post "Games Journalism in Action." I recommend to anyone interested to take a look at most of those links and see what happens when people don't link back to the original post and just quote it without trying to glamorize and glorify it. You know, just report the news. The distortion and wankery that rises from this grave of bad reporting (not Raph - who was the only person to just quote the thing in it's entirety and didn't try to ice the entire ordeal) is pretty awesome. Please, by all means, get to clicking.

Also, if you're a member of Something Awful or The Chaos Engine, or nearly every other forum, you're probably already having this conversation (the one spawned from the original story, that is).


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 17, 2008, 05:53:48 PM
That's fantastic, Tale your like famous or something.

When are you going to tell them you made it all up?   :evil:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 17, 2008, 05:59:15 PM
Given the length of the list and the coverage over a personal anecdote, I think we should call him "Tall Tale" from now on. ;D


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fraeg on December 17, 2008, 06:15:43 PM
Everything I learned about basic html I learned from f13. Sad, but true.

Also, the last computer-y guy we hired (GIS) was indignant when I asked him "so, whaddya play?" Indignant! Perhaps a bit of an assumption on my part, true, but I didn't not expect his verbal shitstorm about what losers gamers are. It smacked of diversionary tactics, methinks.

I am a geographer, GIS is my thing. I know of no other GIS people who are gamers.  I mean they must be out there, but none of the people i know are.  However, I do have a co-worker GIS speciallist in our SD office who is all about Fantasy Leagues  :why_so_serious:

I think the reason for this is that GIS users backgrounds tend to be in things like: urban planning, geology, geography, things like that, not IT in the sense of geeks with computers. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Rasputin on December 17, 2008, 07:11:32 PM
It's a common courtesy to let your employer know of any medical conditions you have that may affect how often you're out. I include pregnancy in this camp. We just hired someone who, surprise! is just starting her second trimester. She wasn't showing when we interviewed (and didn't mention it), but now it's illegal to fire her, even though she'll only work for a few months before she milks our insurance on maternity leave.
It's true. I've now worked at 2 places where women very obviously did not inform the employer they were pregnant. But since you're an evil fuckbag if you bag on a woman for anything involving pregnancy, no one cared to point out the problem with it.

That's because in an interview, using any of the the following as a basis for questions are illegal (at least in New Jersey, and likely elsewhere):
  • Medical history
  • Family background
  • Family heritage
  • Family questions in general (

Having been on several hiring committees it's been reinforced to us time and time again that especially as state employees we have to range FAR away from any questions regarding the above. It could cause us to get sued.

In regards to the recently-hired 2nd Trimester woman, she can work clear up until the baby is poking out if she's in good health, and if she has enough leave time it's no business of yours how long she's out. Once she runs out of leave time I'm sure her insurance won't be covered anymore, unless you have some magical medical plan that doesn't require employees and employers to pay in. Maternity leave from FMLA is, in general, unpaid if you don't have vacation or sick days to use for it.

Veering back on topic, which I got from Lum, yeah, and? In an interview I don't bring up anything regarding gaming unless I'm asked about it, which I was in a multimedia content job I was interviewing for. Beyond that? Hell no. When an interviewer asks what you do outside of work, the answer is "I have a home life. It's pretty good, thanks," and keep 'er movin. That said, fuck 'em for thinking that the general "WoW player" is somehow less of a person.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 17, 2008, 07:33:31 PM
Of course you can't ask, but you can reach the same destination legally. For example, I tend to say something about the position involving high-stress production support, and that we need someone who is willing to commit to the position as a career and not a 9 to 5 McJob, willing to be called late nights and work weekends, no working from home whatsoever, and so on. All of which is absolutely true, documented, and required to some degree. If the candidate agrees and then fails to meet my expectations due to a situation entirely under their control, I take care of the matter. I don't fire them. Instead I make their lives so miserable that they quit without severance. Usually within 6 weeks. I call this "the situation resolving itself".

During that "resolution period", I document every transgression they make, no matter how minor. Employees must be evaluated on how adeptly they perform their job, and they could claim that I forced them to quit, or something of the matter, and sue. It's critically important to document everything, timestamped, and get witnesses to each. If they were to fail to quit after 2 months, I guess I'd go ahead and fire them for cause, but that's never been a problem. My personal best "let the situation resolve itself" within 2 days.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 07:37:29 PM
So, basically, you deal with human nature by being a real dickbag.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2008, 07:47:01 PM
TALL TALE - SIGN MY BREASTS!

Near edit: The first pass of this was TALE TALL - SING MY BREASTS. Not sure which version I like better.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Numtini on December 17, 2008, 07:49:47 PM
Yay, make people miserable for having a family or for having the audacity to be a woman who's pregnant! Drive them from their jobs!

I think you're confusing "employer" with "massah."




Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 17, 2008, 07:54:17 PM
Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with their private lives. It solely hinges upon job performance. The law is very clear.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 07:55:48 PM
Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with their private lives. It solely hinges upon job performance. The law is very clear.

However you want to rationalize that behavior, duder.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 17, 2008, 08:05:57 PM
If I tell someone "you need to be available to work weekends" on the interview and they agree, only to later enter a situation of their own free will where they can't work weekends, that's not my problem. It's a requirement for the job, like basketball teams hiring tall people or contractors hiring licensed electricians, and fully legal. Besides, it's absolutely true. If they're unable to work late or whatever, they can't do the job. Emergencies happen. Should my other guys be expected to pick up their slack?

I take no pleasure in it, except when I feel they lied to me on the interview (which is roughly 95% of the time for india and 25% for US/europe). Either they can do the job or they can't. If not, g'bye.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Murgos on December 17, 2008, 08:32:10 PM
Heh, someone who thinks work > life.  Enjoy your upcoming heart attack(s).


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 08:32:44 PM
Quote
If I tell someone "you need to be available to work weekends" on the interview and they agree, only to later enter a situation of their own free will where they can't work weekends, that's not my problem. It's a requirement for the job, like basketball teams hiring tall people or contractors hiring licensed electricians, and fully legal. Besides, it's absolutely true. If they're unable to work late or whatever, they can't do the job. Emergencies happen. Should my other guys be expected to pick up their slack?

I take no pleasure in it, except when I feel they lied to me on the interview (which is roughly 95% of the time for india and 25% for US/europe). Either they can do the job or they can't. If not, g'bye.

Yea, but going out of your way to be a dickbag doesn't make you less of a dickbag, ts'all I'm saying.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 17, 2008, 09:28:41 PM
Given the length of the list and the coverage over a personal anecdote, I think we should call him "Tall Tale" from now on. ;D

You may remember me from other slashdotted stuff: http://www.corpnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=40594


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 17, 2008, 09:32:43 PM
We made a meme!

BTW, it just jumped to more "mainstream" media. Granted, the games blog, but it's the Guardian nonetheless.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2008/dec/17/pc-games

Quick tale, you need to put up the YouTube video.

Schild, I AM sorry if the traffic hurt. :(


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 09:36:21 PM
The traffic didn't hurt. It's the total lack of any journalistic integrity that hurt. People can't even copy and paste without screwing things up :(


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2008, 09:39:50 PM
Surely you're not surprised? People have screwed up way less complex endeavors than copy / paste. It's that broken thing. And the Guardian TOTALLY qualifies as mainstream media.

You saw it - I was the first one to ask for boob signage!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 17, 2008, 09:44:29 PM
Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with their private lives. It solely hinges upon job performance. The law is very clear.

However you want to rationalize that behavior, duder.

It's not rationalizing. It truly is the situation resolving itself. I don't know same at all, but seeing similar situations, I doubt sam goes out of his way to push more shit onto the soon-to-quit. More likely he doesn't slacken the shit at all, thus allowing the soon-to-quit to realize they ain't cut for the role. It's not sam's job to adapt a specific functional role to a person who wanted the job more than actually thinking about what the job would actually entail. I've seen that situation time and again. People really don't think hiring managers are serious when they say "we're here early, we work late and sometimes on the weekends". They're all like "yea, you're just trying to scare me". Until they see the truth.

It happens. I just went through similar with a guy on my team. My job is a bit less specific though, and I didn't want to fire the guy. He just wasn't right for the role, so I got him another gig (and a slight promotion) in another part of the company.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 09:53:27 PM
Yes, obviously, humans are flawed. But any hiring manager who asks a question like that and expects someone to jeopardize getting a position is deluded and shouldn't be in a position of hiring anyone. Humans, by nature, lie. It just happens. They say what people want to hear. Making someones life hell so they quit - that's not letting the solution resolve itself. It's being a passive-aggressive dickbag.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2008, 09:56:00 PM
Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with their private lives. It solely hinges upon job performance. The law is very clear.

However you want to rationalize that behavior, duder.
People really don't think hiring managers are serious when they say "we're here early, we work late and sometimes on the weekends". They're all like "yea, you're just trying to scare me". Until they see the truth.

It happens. I just went through similar with a guy on my team. My job is a bit less specific though, and I didn't want to fire the guy. He just wasn't right for the role, so I got him another gig (and a slight promotion) in another part of the company.

Ok and that's fine. But are these salaried employees or waged? What do the benefits and expense packages cover? Simply stating that anecdotal comparison without qualifying it is useless. Sam could be the biggest dick on the planet or just a regular employer. We don't know, because there's no real data here, just 300 word posts on f13.

Point: Asking people to occasionally work evenings or weekends is fine, and advising them of that in the interview process is great. However if it's a salary job, you have no right to expect that this is acceptable standard operating practice. The employee owes you the set amount of hours a week and the deliverable output. If weekends are established up front - fine. But acting like a salaried employee should be at your beck and call is asinine.

If these people are on wage not salary it's entirely different. Of course then if the employment contract doesn't outline shift work, you'll be paying overtime - and even if it does you are required to pay overtime at 1.5x for every hour past 8 hours up to 11 and then 2x for every hour past that (varies by state but is pretty consistent, even here in Canada).

The point being - just because you made a vague comment or question in the interview does not give you the right to be a fucking asshole.

EDIT: By the by - nothing you ask or say in the interview process is worth a hill of beans. If it's not in the agreement signed by the employee at the time the job is legally offered it doesn't matter.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 17, 2008, 09:58:04 PM
[uote author=schild link=topic=15577.msg565785#msg565785 date=1229571381]
The traffic didn't hurt. It's the total lack of any journalistic integrity that hurt. People can't even copy and paste without screwing thi
[/quote]
So true.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2008, 09:59:20 PM
[uote author=schild link=topic=15577.msg565785#msg565785 date=1229571381]
The traffic didn't hurt. It's the total lack of any journalistic integrity that hurt. People can't even copy and paste without screwing thi
So true.
[/quote]

LOL. Belly laugh, well played.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 17, 2008, 10:18:09 PM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2008, 10:20:46 PM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

Ah - when in doubt question other peoples validity. Way to seal the deal asshole.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 10:36:48 PM
Har.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 17, 2008, 10:43:32 PM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. ...
I don't fritter my life away working "in the real world" for starters.  Geezus, yours sounds really unpleasant.  Any perks come with all that effort?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 17, 2008, 10:46:35 PM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. ...
I don't fritter my life away working "in the real world" for starters.  Geezus, yours sounds really unpleasant.  Any perks come with all that effort?
Apparently he gets to torture people.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2008, 10:59:24 PM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. ...
I don't fritter my life away working "in the real world" for starters.  Geezus, yours sounds really unpleasant.  Any perks come with all that effort?

How did fritter become a bad word anyway? A good fritter is heavenly.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/111/259563404_6a63de7d00.jpg?v=0)

Oh and to stay on topic. I'd hire a WoW player. But then I'd hire a heroin addicted transvestite monkey who dressed up as Michael Caine in a stormtrooper uniform if he/she/they could do the job. I'd worry about hiring someone from f13 though, all we do is post all day.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 17, 2008, 11:20:59 PM
(http://www.luminomagazine.com/2004.03/spotlight/officespace/images/lumbergh/lumbergh1.jpg)

Yeaaaaaahhhhh... I'm gonna need everyone on this thread to work late.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Zira on December 17, 2008, 11:22:19 PM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

So, your job is a cunt.... mine isnt...   and I do take off at 5pm sharp..

Dont tell me I suck because you are too weak to tell your boss you dont do that shit.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: bhodi on December 17, 2008, 11:23:13 PM
If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce.  ... a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.
Salaried is not synonymous with "exploited" unless you let it become that way. Some managers will drag as much work out of people as they possibly can if you let them - that's part of their job. Part of yours is knowing when you need to work extra hours, and when something can simply wait until tomorrow. Generally, the world as we know it will not end and your company will not collapse if things slip.

Sometimes, things need to slip for a systemic problem to be red flagged and addressed. A constant 60 hours a week equates to bad planning or inadequate help. I've worked my share of crunch time and emergencies, coming in on the weekend if there's a problem or unexpected deadline, but always it's the exception, not the norm. If I ever ended up in a position where 60 hours a week is considered 'normal' in any way shape or form, I would be leaving that job post haste. I don't think I'm alone in this.

I think it is you who is the outlier, not us. I have come into contact with people in your situation, though, and some do seem to follow your views. I used to work at a large government contracting agency, and I was briefly cubed next to a woman who was on a proposal team - that is, a team responsible for putting together an initial proposal to submit to the government as a bid on government contracts. Because the team is considered "overhead", that is, hours not directly billable to the customer, there is great incentive to get as much work out of these people as humanly possible to keep the overhead costs down.

The people on that team were working your kind of hours; coming in weekends, trying to make unreasonable deadlines, missing rush hour early coming in and late going out, the whole deal. She had only been doing it for 6 months but by then had completely lost her social life and started looking physically haggard. She wasn't sleeping well and started getting worse by the day. One day, I just looked at her and asked her why she did it. Her response? "Because it's my job, and they need me." Not soon after, she burned out and was quickly replaced with someone else who was also willing to work those kinds of hours for middling pay. Life in the company went on.

During this period, I was raiding pretty hardcore in WoW - I was even putting about 25 hours a week into the game at one point. Unlike her, I managed to come in on time and keep my job, my health, and my sanity.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2008, 11:51:20 PM
(http://www.luminomagazine.com/2004.03/spotlight/officespace/images/lumbergh/lumbergh1.jpg)

Yeaaaaaahhhhh... I'm gonna need everyone on this thread to work late.

Winner winner, chicken dinner!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 18, 2008, 12:07:18 AM
Hrm, I'm of two mindsets. It seems to me that when companies need their employees to put in the extra mile, then something's gone horribly wrong and they're about to collapse. But then again, a lot of those companies are still around; consider EA. They've wrung their people for all they're worth, and they're one of the strongest electronic media companies in the world. Personally, when I put in those extra hours, it's because I love what I'm doing and I really want to be there. I've gone several months without seeing the sun because I'd rather be locked up in a dark theatre 16 hours a day.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 18, 2008, 12:58:45 AM
Why did this story gain so much traction? Is the gaming world so surprised that recruiters would err away from WoW players?

Because there are about 5 million non-Asian-based WoW players who don't like to hear they've been wasting their lives. Video games promote hand / eye coordination and are inherently valuable to play.

In completely unrelated news, in about 21 hours I will have spent 24 days posting on f13.net.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: pants on December 18, 2008, 01:07:03 AM
It can depend on the industry too.  Some industries (big 4 accounting firms, I'm looking at you) do their annual budgets based on all peons being 45-50 hours/week billable.  Add in the non-billable adminny stuff you gotta do, and 50-60 hour work weeks are the norm.  They do churn through their staff pretty heavily, but they expect that, thus why they go crazy recruiting silly grads who don't know any better to replace all the older ones who have burnt out and quit.

Oh yeah, and when they say 'Welcome to the company, now we're gonna ship you halfway round the country for 6 months' - that aint a coincidence.  If youre in a strange city with none of your usual friends outside of work, well hey, you got nothing better to do than stay in the office til 9 every night, do ya?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Triforcer on December 18, 2008, 01:07:51 AM
http://timesonline.typepad.com/technology/2008/12/should-employer.html?OTC-widgets&ATTR=tolblogs

Times of London has it now.  Tale, hire a media person stat. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fraeg on December 18, 2008, 01:08:25 AM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

speaking of naive.

What you say holds true for yes, a great many jobs/careers.  But trying to apply what you have experienced in the workplace to the world at large is pure fail.

I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce.
Depends on what you are doing, in many areas, yes, this is the rule.  In many areas if you have never not worked 60+ you are either incapable of getting shit done in a timely manner or are simply being bled dry.

If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp.
Dunno how you define *real*.  Real to me is a steady job/career where you make an amount of $$ that can support your lifestyle and then some while also stuffing away for retirement.  The amount of jobs where you can fairly easily set the time on which you leave, based on the time that you arrive to work is oh.. how about too fucking many to mention.  However, yes there certainly are many jobs where last minute shit comes up, a client calls, the DB is fuxxored, a subcontractor fucked up....etc.  To define jobs that don't contain these elements as *unreal* is again.. Fail.

You're reachable on the phone
With the exception of vacations and some weekends I 100% agree.

you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames,
guess i missed the part where people bragged about draining sick days to catass... but yeah.. we all take a mental health day off now and then.  If you don't ever do this.. you are missing out on one of the finer guilty pleasures in life... sucks to be you.

starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really Begin to pile up
Of course they do, and the sky is also still blue.

Again, to define a job as *real* based on your personal experiences in the workplace is..... Fail

It is a big world.. lots of things to do, some more demanding than others... some more rewarding than others.   And there are thousands and thousands of flavors to jobs.  You may have gotten vanilla, but others might be rocking mango passion fruit sorbet, and their job description might very well differ from yours.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Special J on December 18, 2008, 01:33:56 AM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

What qualifies as a 'long' vacation?  I've been with my employers for 12 years and sure plan on taking all the vacation time that I earned; It's part of my compensation.  I do everything I'm asked, but I don't work for free.  You can if you like, but it doesn't make your job any more a 'real job'.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 18, 2008, 01:45:02 AM
Sam hasn't yet revealed the industry in which he resides, I assume though, from his posts, that it's slavery. And he isn't upper management. Of course, I'm just guessing here.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 18, 2008, 04:16:52 AM
http://timesonline.typepad.com/technology/2008/12/should-employer.html?OTC-widgets&ATTR=tolblogs

Times of London has it now.  Tale, hire a media person stat. 

There's a journalist in my PMs here, trying to get an exclusive interview with me and the recruiter. Entschuldigung, guter Herr, I didn't get time to respond before your "did you get my message" deadline panic. Also, I'm not calling the recruiter about this ... yet. Also, I'm a journalist too.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on December 18, 2008, 04:27:20 AM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

I laugh at your misplaced priorities.

Quote
It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I laugh at this too. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Triforcer on December 18, 2008, 06:11:46 AM
I doubt you'll get the recruiter to identify himself or say anything on the record.  That's the sort of thing a company lawyer would leap over his desk and grab him by the neck to keep him from doing.  Under current law, it wouldn't necessarily lead to lawsuits, but the way lawyers think is "why chance anything?"


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: vex on December 18, 2008, 06:21:43 AM
This, if nothing else, has been an excellent lesson in how "news" stories are formed. 

Oh, and I wouldn't have hired me in my heavy EQ days nor would I think ever think to talk about gaming in a job interview.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Numtini on December 18, 2008, 07:07:16 AM
Quote
The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce.

I'd say you're the one who is naive and that someone has been taking advantage of it to exploit you and you're going forward and doing the same to others. Lots of us live very fulfilled lives and work reasonable hours. I've done so while working for the government, while working for a startup, and while working for a giant multinational corporation. Yes, there are times I've had to work extra hours. There are nights where I watched people leave at the end of the day and watched them come back in the following morning. But those were exceptions and exactly what "exempt" is supposed to be about. It's not a license to run a slave plantation.



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: chargerrich on December 18, 2008, 07:11:16 AM
I completely get your point. I know some people who have let the game become an addiction to the detement of their personal, home and work life.

That being said, some of us like myself imposed balance and self discipline. I could easily play 40 hours a week but I dont. I have played and loved the game since retail launch (sans my ill fated attempt to play WAR). I have also had a few "wasted wow weekends" where I look back Sunday evening and say WTF! That motivates me to not extend the weekend into a week, month or life.

In fact, for me personally the game has motivated me to go back and get my Masters. So I take night classes 4 nights a week and play on most weekends. And aside from some lunch time browsing, I do work at work... in fact my employer might reap the benefit of my Masters degree that may well be acquired in no small part BECAUSE of WoW!  :thumbs_up:
You're pretty full of shit. You, like, can have a problem if you choose to, but you like, chose not to. You know what it is to be a heroinist, because you've been high on pot a couple of times. That's the pretty much the opposite of having a problem. Truth is that you don't understand the nature of the word problem at all, given your lecturing.

You completely missed the point. Some people have addictive personalities, others do not. I can go into a bar and have a few drinks but am not an altoholic. Anything in excess will be bad, most things in moderation are ok.

It is as simple as that, but you can look for something to flame if you so choose, I was just making an observation on myself. Generally a "lecture" would entail me telling SOMEONE ELSE that THEY are right or wrong.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on December 18, 2008, 07:47:56 AM
Some people have addictive personalities, others do not.

If only it were so easy to explain.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on December 18, 2008, 08:12:29 AM
This, if nothing else, has been an excellent lesson in how "news" stories are formed. 

This story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691020.stm) from the end of October about a mountain marathon being cancelled made national headlines for a weekend in the UK.  It made me realise that the BBC is going the way of Fox News and that none (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/25/weather) of the papers (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/all-marathon-competitors-accounted-for-974229.html) couldn't be bothered to sort out facts if the facts turned out to be far less interesting than the sensationalist headlines would suggest.  Same thing here - sensationalist headline ftw.

(My favourite headline was in the Times : "Just inches away from turning the mountains into a morgue (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article5019756.ece)")



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 18, 2008, 08:21:30 AM
I can go into a bar and have a few drinks but am not an altoholic.

Meanwhile, I only play my main but drink a bottle of gin each play session.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nevermore on December 18, 2008, 08:23:01 AM
We made a meme!

BTW, it just jumped to more "mainstream" media. Granted, the games blog, but it's the Guardian nonetheless.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2008/dec/17/pc-games

Quick tale, you need to put up the YouTube video.

Schild, I AM sorry if the traffic hurt. :(

I don't think they condensed the original post down enough.  Here, let me try:

"World of Warcraft players... are often not great."

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tarami on December 18, 2008, 08:43:12 AM
You completely missed the point. Some people have addictive personalities, others do not. I can go into a bar and have a few drinks but am not an altoholic. Anything in excess will be bad, most things in moderation are ok.

It is as simple as that, but you can look for something to flame if you so choose, I was just making an observation on myself. Generally a "lecture" would entail me telling SOMEONE ELSE that THEY are right or wrong.
Like there are criminals and innocent? Some people just have it in them. It has nothing to do with surrounding factors, it's just your lack of character.
Quote
That being said, some of us like myself imposed balance and self discipline.
Totally not judgemental. You know, I really don't care, but it's sad to see someone with his head so far up his own ass.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 18, 2008, 09:10:06 AM
Quote
Cory Doctorow of Boing Boing asks this pertinent question:

Any news story in mainstream media or not, that starts with that, should result in the journalist being dragged into the street, tarred, and feathered. Not necessarily in that order. Yow. The viral spread of this shit is more interesting than the story itself.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slayerik on December 18, 2008, 09:15:16 AM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

I laugh at your misplaced priorities.

Quote
It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I laugh at this too. 


Wow, I'm so glad I'm not living the this 'real world'. Instead, I'm overpaid to do desktop support at a University Hospital. I work 40 hours a week, don't want or get overtime, and fuck off all day on f13 and a couple other sites... I can't imagine having a 'real' job. Poor 'real' job having bastards.

Back to looking for mining nodes on my laptop!!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Demonix on December 18, 2008, 09:18:17 AM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

Actually, yes.  I have worked private sector jobs in IT that were 40 hours a week.  Yes, there were times when there was overtime required, or weekend work, or what have you, but it occurred in bursts and was not a constant situation.

Honestly, if you are in a company where there is enough work to consistently put in 60 hours per week, someone is doing something wrong...there is obviously a need for more people. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 18, 2008, 09:30:09 AM
Wow, the world is watching. We have a chance to change things. Company policy is at steak!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nevermore on December 18, 2008, 09:37:12 AM
Ah hahaha!  Farked! (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=4089892)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 18, 2008, 09:45:28 AM
That's about the response I expected. I still think you guys are wrong, but don't want to continue the derail. The real story here is how long it takes for the AP feed to pick up this breaking news. And credit it to the pope, via l'osservatore romano out of the vatican.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 18, 2008, 09:50:39 AM
Sam hasn't yet revealed the industry in which he resides, I assume though, from his posts, that it's slavery. And he isn't upper management. Of course, I'm just guessing here.

Or anything in IT, video games, or the medical profession, or probably consumer goods, the entertainment industry, or anything associated with the stock market. Global economy and commerce ftw.

Yes, there's plenty of jobs you work exactly 9 hours with two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute lunch. And there's plenty of jobs in which you can excel and get promoted purely on the merit of doing that job in that timeframe really really well.

However, if part of your team is in China or Europe, if your partners are on one coast and you on the other, if you have a management team of over achievers, or you're in a highly competitive space that can change with the market overnight or PR annoucements made during someone else's day, you have a job of intangibles, or if you don't have a desk job in police, fire, or in a hospital, chances are you're not just working the exact alotted hours assigned nor officially documented.

I'm actually surprised by the reaction in this thread. But that just shows the diversity, which itself is a good thing.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Numtini on December 18, 2008, 09:55:34 AM
Quote
Or anything in IT, video games, or the medical profession, or probably consumer goods, the entertainment industry, or anything associated with the stock market. Global economy and commerce ftw.

Or more accurately, any industry which has moved from a professional association to employer/employee model or has been created after the 1940s. Ie, those industries which have managed to carve out a defacto exemption from fair labor laws by exploiting the "exempt" status for people who very clearly are employees not partners, professionals, or supervisors.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on December 18, 2008, 09:56:56 AM
That's about the response I expected. I still think you guys are wrong, but don't want to continue the derail.

No, this derail is fun.  

What's wrong about being able to find a work/life balance?  Why is not being of the mindset that you Live To Work and not Work To Live wrong? Enquiring minds want to know.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Triforcer on December 18, 2008, 09:59:10 AM
To borrow the best image ever from that Fark thread, you have to remember that the non-MMO world has the following mental image of MMO players:

(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/timujin/Fark/mustardman_big.jpg)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 18, 2008, 10:44:27 AM
To borrow the best image ever from that Fark thread, you have to remember that the non-MMO world has the following mental image of MMO players:

(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/timujin/Fark/mustardman_big.jpg)
You just posted a 6 year old fark meme. Grats.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 18, 2008, 10:48:40 AM
That's about the response I expected. I still think you guys are wrong, but don't want to continue the derail.

No, this derail is fun.  

What's wrong about being able to find a work/life balance?  Why is not being of the mindset that you Live To Work and not Work To Live wrong? Enquiring minds want to know.

For me: nothing is wrong with this. I often joke that I don't really "go home" at the end of the day. It's more that I change venues, with a three hour break for family time. But that has nothing to do with being fundamentally right or wrong about it. There's no black and white here.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nevermore on December 18, 2008, 10:49:18 AM
You just posted a 6 year old fark meme. Grats.

(http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~jskong/orly.gif)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 18, 2008, 10:51:15 AM
Aha! Wise opponent. My full name is Samir al-Tafouaj, and my favorite food is camel meatballs braised in the blood of christian babes with baba gnanouj (eggplant dip, you american devils would say) and flatbread made from the ground bones of your white pigswine children. Delicious! And so I have named myself.

I manage a white slavery outfit, with roughly eight Hands of the Sword below me, praise to His name. Aieeo! We primarily operate out of depressed eastern europe and the former USSR, trafficking in thin willowy blondes and flame heads for my blessed masters in Saudi Arabia, Dubai, and the UAE. I work hard for little wages, but will be rewarded in heaven with 77 blonde virgins. Freedom from my four brown wives, ptui! Willowy clean blondes of my very own! Al-akbar! Ayiyiyiyiyi!

On a different note, old or not, that's an awesome picture.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: bhodi on December 18, 2008, 10:51:19 AM
What do I do in my spare time?

I make furniture out of human bones.

What? Where are you going?



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Valmorian on December 18, 2008, 10:52:17 AM
You just posted a 6 year old fark meme. Grats.

Wow I had never seen that before.. made me laugh.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Valmorian on December 18, 2008, 10:55:28 AM
That's about the response I expected.

Well, you SHOULD have expected it after the ridiculous statements you made.  I mean really, " If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week." 

That might work if you posted that where there weren't people who ARE salaried employees working 40 hours a week in positions that aren't government, non-profit or educational.   All I need to do to see how full of crap that statement is is peek over any cubicle wall here.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: MrHat on December 18, 2008, 10:59:21 AM
Aha! Wise opponent. My full name is Samir al-Tafouaj, and my favorite food is camel meatballs braised in the blood of christian babes with baba gnanouj (eggplant dip, you american devils would say) and flatbread made from the ground bones of your white pigswine children. Delicious! And so I have named myself.

I manage a white slavery outfit, with roughly eight Hands of the Sword below me, praise to His name. Aieeo! We primarily operate out of depressed eastern europe and the former USSR, trafficking in thin willowy blondes and flame heads for my blessed masters in Saudi Arabia, Dubai, and the UAE. I work hard for little wages, but will be rewarded in heaven with 77 blonde virgins. Freedom from my four brown wives, ptui! Willowy clean blondes of my very own! Al-akbar! Ayiyiyiyiyi!

On a different note, old or not, that's an awesome picture.

Is there a racist equivalent of the grammar snake?

Also, schild, what are you, some sort of Internet Historian?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 18, 2008, 11:00:23 AM
silly dogshit
I could say something fairly mean but absolutely true in retort to that, but instead I'll just say that you're absolutely right. You need to avoid speaking in absolutes on the internet, because some pedantic jackass will always come up with an exception. For example, I could declare that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and some fucknut will come up with "wrong, not at the north pole!". Shrug.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Merusk on December 18, 2008, 11:09:10 AM
That's about the response I expected. I still think you guys are wrong, but don't want to continue the derail.

No, this derail is fun.  

What's wrong about being able to find a work/life balance?  Why is not being of the mindset that you Live To Work and not Work To Live wrong? Enquiring minds want to know.

For me: nothing is wrong with this. I often joke that I don't really "go home" at the end of the day. It's more that I change venues, with a three hour break for family time. But that has nothing to do with being fundamentally right or wrong about it. There's no black and white here.

I sure hope you're being paid a lot of dough.

Fuck, I hope any of you idiots working over 50 hours are getting paid a lot.   I haven't worked a week more than 50h in my life, and I refuse to do so.  Dad and I had a long, long talk about that after he was thrown away by an employer during a buyout of his division, despite being an workaholic like you all in the President's position and turning a company around from 3 mil loss to 2 mil profit in 2 years time. (During which I saw him sundays and saturday evenings. He was regularly gone before I went to school and home at 9pm.) Enjoy your kids' therapy bills, mine were a bitch.

If you're working 60 hours, and just one of your co-workers is also working 60 hours, guess what?  You just saved your company 90 grand.  The first firm I worked for out of college did this on purpose.  They weren't shy about it, either.  "We expect you to work a minimum of 50 hours, so we don't have to hire another person.  If you can't do that we're going to have problems." Was how it was put at my annual when they reviewed and saw I was only working 45 on a regular basis.  Guess what, I was fired a month and a half later when my hours didn't up.

You're a cog, a tool and nothing more than that.  If they can abuse you, they will. Particularly in this economic hard time.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 18, 2008, 11:12:12 AM
That's about the response I expected. I still think you guys are wrong, but don't want to continue the derail. The real story here is how long it takes for the AP feed to pick up this breaking news. And credit it to the pope, via l'osservatore romano out of the vatican.

If there's a role in your productive flow that requires 60 hours a week from the employees, no long vacations, etc, it means that employee is now a company risk.

If they die/break a leg/etc, you're Fucked. You lack redundancy. If you had redundancy, said employee could schedule vacations.

That said, I don't like taking long vacations. Drives me nuts to not be at work for three or four days in a row. But if you're ever That vital to the company, it needs to be brought up as a risk to be evaluated.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: voodoolily on December 18, 2008, 11:15:09 AM

In completely unrelated news, in about 21 hours I will have spent 24 days posting on f13.net.

I've spent an entire month of my life logged in! That's time I'll never get back.  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 18, 2008, 11:15:47 AM
Quote
Total time logged in: 327 days, 23 hours and 27 minutes.

Sup.

Now that that tangent is over. We can go straight back into Sam being a slave - in just 1 post!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: MrHat on December 18, 2008, 11:23:53 AM
So, is that active time on the board? Like, time spent reading/writing?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 18, 2008, 11:24:42 AM
So, is that active time on the board? Like, time spent reading/writing?

It's active forum time slapping your mom in the face with my wang, now stfu and let the slave talk. It's not every day we actually find someone worthy of reparations.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: bhodi on December 18, 2008, 11:25:51 AM
40 virtual acres and a mule to be granted... in Atitd?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Numtini on December 18, 2008, 11:54:34 AM
40 virtual acres and a mule to be granted... in Atitd?

You get a free sheep with the pre-pay package.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Valmorian on December 18, 2008, 11:59:59 AM
I could say something fairly mean but absolutely true in retort to that

Be my guest.  Go ahead.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Orthiad on December 18, 2008, 12:25:12 PM
This makes me glad I don't mention what games I play out of work. If I get asked what my hobbies are they get the typical reading and building PCs answer.

I play WoW but I don't take it to the obsession level. I would be pretty pissed if I was not hired because of a game I play just because a bunch of idiots out there don't know how to handle real life. I've played it for about 2 or so years and now I've pretty much lost interested in it.

 I work for a large 3rd party processing company for subscription websites and a lot of the people in my department are Wow players and they all sit around talking about it and i just can't help feel that they are huge losers while I'm over at my pc pumping out emails and they're all slacking off and doing shit. There is a time and place for everything and work is not one of those places for WoW. It irks me to no end that I'm being paid a lot less then they are while they do nothing, one of my supervisors even brings in his Nintendo DS and plays it while on his shift.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Murgos on December 18, 2008, 12:28:26 PM
Anyway, just because someone works 'lots' doesn't have anything to do with quality of result or challenge or, well, anything.  Heck, it's not even necessarily indicative of compensation or reward.  Working more != win, it's just working more.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Rasix on December 18, 2008, 12:52:15 PM
My boss knows I'm a gamer.  He asks about it at times.  He knows that I play WoW and have in the past written about video games.  It helps him relate to me, and I suppose it helps him relate a bit better to his teenager as he'll ask me stuff about things he hears from his son. I've found ways to avoid him coming here and reading my work (not like I really write anymore) as I would like to keep some barriers intact.   Someone coming into this place with no frame of reference (even as just someone who plays video games at all) would be at a loss and no way I want him throwing his teenage kid here and letting you all have at him.

He also knows that I play tennis and used to play soccer. I've had meetings I've declined to attend because of tennis.  It's never caused a problem. 

My work place attemtps to value work/life balance.  Sure, I've had to write emails and attend teleconferences while I've been on vacation.  I've had to scrub defects and give direction at 10pm when my wife goes to bed.  But I take my 4 weeks of vacation a year and in pretty large chunks most of the time.  I've worked 60+ hours certain weeks when under pressure of a deadline or when a vendor working for me has dropped the ball and I need to play catch up.  This is never the norm. I check my email in off hours and my boss and co-workers have my personal numbers to get in touch with me if they need to.  I will be taking my 2 weeks paternity leave, and I've never heard any grousing about paternity or maternity leave from anyone.  It's an accepted part of working where I do.

I work for a huge company, but at least in the area I work in, they tend to remember you're a human being. You have your needs, and you have your limits.  They do their best to respect that.  It inspires loyalty to a fault.



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ingmar on December 18, 2008, 01:39:44 PM
Everyone I work with knows I'm a gamer, it isn't an issue.

Re: this 60 hour work week stuff:  :uhrr:

Put me down for another one of those has-a-real-job-and-rarely-goes-over-40-hours a week. And I work in IT. Yeah once in a while I have to go in at 2 am to put out a fire, and I usually have my email tether with me, even on vacation, but that's not really working.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nevermore on December 18, 2008, 01:40:57 PM
Curious, I checked out Sam's posting history fully expecting most, if not all, of his posting activity would take place in the evening or night.  I mean, he has so much work piled on him that he's forced to work 50+ 60+ hours every week since he has a real job, unlike the rest of us losers who work for the government or an educational institution.  I was shocked, SHOCKED to see that he mostly posts during business hours!  I guess it's a good thing his boss isn't as big a jackass as he is.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nija on December 18, 2008, 01:44:14 PM
My small company was acquired by a big 4 recently. Before the acquisition I played pool an hour per day and had lunch an hour per day and breaks whenever I wanted. (I'm not a smoker, so not often.) I'd do 32-35 hours per week and got paid salary with full benefits.

Now they want me to do 60. Your world sucks, Sam.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 18, 2008, 01:46:17 PM
Curious, I checked out Sam's posting history fully expecting most, if not all, of his posting activity would take place in the evening or night.  I mean, he has so much work piled on him that he's forced to work 50+ 60+ hours every week since he has a real job, unlike the rest of us losers who work for the government or an educational institution.  I was shocked, SHOCKED to see that he mostly posts during business hours!  I guess it's a good thing his boss isn't as big a jackass as he is.

He's roleplaying.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 18, 2008, 01:47:05 PM
Curious, I checked out Sam's posting history fully expecting most, if not all, of his posting activity would take place in the evening or night.  I mean, he has so much work piled on him that he's forced to work 50+ 60+ hours every week since he has a real job, unlike the rest of us losers who work for the government or an educational institution.  I was shocked, SHOCKED to see that he mostly posts during business hours!  I guess it's a good thing his boss isn't as big a jackass as he is.
He's roleplaying.
Roleplaying a free man, or a slave? I'm confused. It's hard to follow.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 18, 2008, 01:49:21 PM
Curious, I checked out Sam's posting history fully expecting most, if not all, of his posting activity would take place in the evening or night.  I mean, he has so much work piled on him that he's forced to work 50+ 60+ hours every week since he has a real job, unlike the rest of us losers who work for the government or an educational institution.  I was shocked, SHOCKED to see that he mostly posts during business hours!  I guess it's a good thing his boss isn't as big a jackass as he is.
He's roleplaying.
Roleplaying a free man, or a slave? I'm confused. It's hard to follow.
Roleplaying a successful businessman with an amazing job, a sportscar and a model hot wife while posting on an internet forum at work.

I'm just.. uhh... testing the speed of the new office connection.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Yegolev on December 18, 2008, 01:50:04 PM
Now that I actually work here, I'm not shy about being a gamer.  I'm the go-to guy at Christmas for people with kids that want games.  In fact I related a recent bit of learning from this site to someone looking to avoid giving $100 to MicroSoft for a USB ethernet dongle.  I listen patiently as people tell me how awesome they think Mass Effect is... just last week.  Someone excitedly tells me they just got a Wii and I congratulate them.  I'm like the gaming SME, which is really much better than being the printing SME, trust me.  It's funny also because I'm like the office pot dealer except this isn't illegal.

Are we still talking about work schedules for salaried people?  I submit that anyone here on a salary in a job* that works too much** should put out the resume.  You might find a job where you can spend some of your weeks sitting around with your thumb up your ass while making enough money, as long as you Get The Job Done.  Don't tell anyone you play WoW during the interview.

* Check norms in your field, your mileage may vary according to profession.
** Working too much is a subjective measure.  Note that most people only have jobs so they can get monies, not because they enjoy working more than bowling with their family.

Somewhat related, I have discovered that the best way to punish someone I don't like is to force them to adhere to all of the rules.  The funny thing is that if I stuck to the rules, some projects would grind to a fucking halt, pert quick.  I only seriously do this when I am trying to be an ass pole, since it fucks lots of people pretty hard and my boss knows when I am doing it.  Also it doesn't make anyone quit, probably because this is a great company to work for.  Relatively, anyway.

I don't know how many hours I work per week, but I put 37.5 on my timesheet unless I go over that. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 18, 2008, 01:58:46 PM
Doesn't everybody post at work? I tend to post while stuck on conference calls, office door closed, speakerphone on mute. I'm on one right this instant, actually, although they tend to be short right around xmas as people start to leave for vacation. Beyond MMO sites I also browse stripperweb.com (very entertaining, check it out) and fleshbot for interesting new perspectives on porn. Nothing passes the time on conference calls like porno and MMO news. Point is that nobody's checking on me, because I do what needs to be done. Anyway, I enjoy my job.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 18, 2008, 02:07:05 PM
Doesn't everybody post at work?

No. I'm too busy at work, because it's about putting the latest and most clickable information on a news website every minute of the day, so it's like constantly being on deadline. Any time I step away from that, it's to cram as much admin/planning work into my time as possible, then back to the grind. I posted once to this thread from work yesterday, when I stole about 30 seconds to look at what was happening with this thread, but every other visit/post has been from home, including the first post.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: chargerrich on December 18, 2008, 02:11:52 PM
Doesn't everybody post at work? I tend to post while stuck on conference calls, office door closed, speakerphone on mute. I'm on one right this instant, actually, although they tend to be short right around xmas as people start to leave for vacation. Beyond MMO sites I also browse stripperweb.com (very entertaining, check it out) and fleshbot for interesting new perspectives on porn. Nothing passes the time on conference calls like porno and MMO news. Point is that nobody's checking on me, because I do what needs to be done. Anyway, I enjoy my job.

you damn well better if you are spending 60+ hours a week there... I also hope you get paid a tidy salary because whatever it is you need to reduce it by 33% since your working those additional 20 hours per week. Funny how 100k can turn into 66k almost instantly :D

Oh and... FOR THE HORDE!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 18, 2008, 02:29:32 PM
Ah hahaha!  Farked! (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=4089892)

Being Farked (via a link to a link) done very little for the page views on this thread, presuming they're accurate. The views shot to 40,000 after the initial burst of stories, and 24 hours later it's still in the 50,000s.

In my work presenting web news to a mainstream audience, I've occasionally thrown in a games-related story. It only gets mediocre traffic. Last time I tried it was when people were queueing to buy the latest WoW expansion. I ran an angle like "players of biggest online game go nuts for new add-on" with a picture that was clearly WoW-related to see what response it got. The clicks bubbled along acceptably for a couple of hours, then faded and I replaced it with a celebrity story.

The gaming media and tech blogs picked this up because it's money for jam - gamers are on the internet where your news is, and they share links on message boards. Tell them their hobby is bad for them, and they'll click. The more clicks your site gets, the more income you get from ads, so every site needs a version of everyone else's clickable story. That's right, we're a resource and we're being mined for gold (see, it's just like WoW ... cough).

But most people on the internet are not gamers. It's a niche thing. "Employers avoid WoW players" might be worth a few paragraphs in a mainstream news feature about people losing themselves in online worlds (I'll write it), but it won't engage a mainstream audience on its own.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 18, 2008, 02:30:18 PM
Wow, the world is watching. We have a chance to change things. Company policy is at steak!


Or make a profound statement.

(http://i21.piczo.com/view/b/e/r/s/t/5/j/j/t/1/t/img/i16486410_52991_2.jpg)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 18, 2008, 02:40:01 PM
You're a cog, a tool and nothing more than that.  If they can abuse you, they will. Particularly in this economic hard time.

Yup. I never want a salary position. Not getting paid for my overtime (which is required by law in my profession, you can't get some goony exception) would touch me off.
Having a strong work ethic is one thing. Being a sucker is quite another.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nevermore on December 18, 2008, 02:47:42 PM
Ah hahaha!  Farked! (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=4089892)

Being Farked (via a link to a link) done very little for the page views on this thread, presuming they're accurate. The views shot to 40,000 after the initial burst of stories, and 24 hours later it's still in the 50,000s.

Farkers are lazy.  Most don't even click the topic link, let alone drill down to the source.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: voodoolily on December 18, 2008, 02:49:33 PM
It's times like this when I bet schild really wishes he had some decent CPM banner up.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 18, 2008, 03:33:24 PM
But most people on the internet are not gamers. It's a niche thing. "Employers avoid WoW players" might be worth a few paragraphs in a mainstream news feature about people losing themselves in online worlds (I'll write it), but it won't engage a mainstream audience on its own.
You should put up a link to this article about some poster on a board commenting about how Employers won't hire WoW players I've heard about and see how it does.

Then the circle would be complete.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: tazelbain on December 18, 2008, 03:40:37 PM
Some may see that as completing the circle, others may see it as fraud.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 18, 2008, 03:46:52 PM
Fine.  He should put a link up to those 'news' organizations going crazy about this article on Employers and WoW that link back to this place.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: amiable on December 18, 2008, 04:08:52 PM
No offense meant, but I question what you guys do in the real world. The stuff you're saying is highly naive. If you have a salaried job and don't work for the government, a non-profit, or an educational institution, you're not working 40 hours a week. I haven't put in less than 60 hours since I entered the workforce. If you have a real job, you don't take off at 5PM sharp. You're reachable on the phone, you don't take long vacations except for special occasions, and you don't use up all your sick days to play videogames, because they need you at work. You're not a nameless faceless cog in the engine, you're driving the car. It's as much control over your destiny as is possible before starting your own business-- and that's when the hours really start to pile up.

I'm sure that all sounds incredibly elitist, but seriously now-- a set number of hours per week for salaried employees? Dream world, buddy.

Why the government hate?  Some of the salaried government employees work pretty hard as well (my weeks are 50-60 hours, and I am accessible at all times via phone).  Of course my hours would be substantially longer in the private sector, but I would make an ass-ton more money, but I don't mind the trade off.

In any case I think this is a somewhat irrelevant issue to the systematic discrimination you are engaged in, and it is discrimination and it is systematic.  Folks have to do shit like procreate for the good of society as a whole, and that means that your company/business needs to be supportive of that, and using backdoor ways to get folks to quit/push them out is equally illegal.  Replace the word "pregnant" with "black" in your description to understand what kind of fire you are playing with.  I know some employment attorneys in the private sector would cream themselves over the post you just made, because sooner or later someone is going to hire them and make a lot of money from your behavior.  Posts like the one you just made indicate to me that you need some "real world" training too, you need to have some discussions with risk management.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Nebu on December 18, 2008, 05:39:20 PM
Yup. I never want a salary position. Not getting paid for my overtime (which is required by law in my profession, you can't get some goony exception) would touch me off.
Having a strong work ethic is one thing. Being a sucker is quite another.

As soon as I can find a faculty position that pays an hourly wage, I'll agree. 

Not all of us are suckers that work for salary... many are people that lack an alternative in their field.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 18, 2008, 05:42:41 PM
Yup. I never want a salary position. Not getting paid for my overtime (which is required by law in my profession, you can't get some goony exception) would touch me off.
Having a strong work ethic is one thing. Being a sucker is quite another.

As soon as I can find a faculty position that pays an hourly wage, I'll agree. 

Not all of us are suckers that work for salary... many are people that lack an alternative in their field.

Sure. And you're not all "I"m proud to work 80 hours of overtime for free!".

I think it's sad that standing up for a person's own worth is seen as a liability.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 18, 2008, 06:23:07 PM
Fuck, I hope any of you idiots working over 50 hours are getting paid a lot.   I haven't worked a week more than 50h in my life, and I refuse to do so.  Dad and I had a long, long talk about that after he was thrown away by an employer during a buyout of his division, despite being an workaholic like you all in the President's position and turning a company around from 3 mil loss to 2 mil profit in 2 years time. (During which I saw him sundays and saturday evenings. He was regularly gone before I went to school and home at 9pm.) Enjoy your kids' therapy bills, mine were a bitch.

If you're working 60 hours, and just one of your co-workers is also working 60 hours, guess what?  You just saved your company 90 grand.  The first firm I worked for out of college did this on purpose.  They weren't shy about it, either.  "We expect you to work a minimum of 50 hours, so we don't have to hire another person.  If you can't do that we're going to have problems." Was how it was put at my annual when they reviewed and saw I was only working 45 on a regular basis.  Guess what, I was fired a month and a half later when my hours didn't up.

You're a cog, a tool and nothing more than that.  If they can abuse you, they will. Particularly in this economic hard time.

Yes. And no. You do what you can while it works for you. When it doesn't you look to change the condition or move on. The big things to remember are: a) the company never cares about you until you make them care; and, b) no matter what you do and what position you have, you are as easily dispensible as everyone else. Anyone who's ever though "they can't get rid of me, the whole place would fall about!" is dead wrong. The place can and will, it just means whoever's left when you're gone takes up the slack.

I don't work 60 hours a week. I just happen to spend 15+ hours out of the office occasionally checking in. Hell, I'd guess maybe 1% of all employeed people actually work all of the 40 hours they're supposed to, particularly those in cushy salaried positions. There's so much freakin' waste in office environments between meetings that started late and had no agendas so no planned resolution, social catchups, the aforementioned fantasy sports league crap, dozens of hours a months spent F13, and so on. If people actually sat back and wondered just how much work they actually did during work, there's a better than average chance they're well under the minimum hours to put in. But salaried folks aren't often asked to track their work in 15 minute increments, and thus this becomes the hidden cost.

Not me though. I'm a paragon of virtuosity and proactive efficiency  :grin:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fraeg on December 18, 2008, 07:01:59 PM
no matter what you do and what position you have, you are as easily dispensable as everyone else. Anyone who's ever though "they can't get rid of me, the whole place would fall about!" is dead wrong. The place can and will, it just means whoever's left when you're gone takes up the slack.

THIS

If you are going to learn one and only one thing about the workplace, being a part of the workforce, having a career, etc.  This is the one lesson you cannot forget.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 18, 2008, 08:03:14 PM

no matter what you do and what position you have, you are as easily dispensable as everyone else. Anyone who's ever though "they can't get rid of me, the whole place would fall about!" is dead wrong.

(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9404/cogweganaypreedpl3.jpg)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 18, 2008, 09:28:52 PM
Awesome. I'm lazy, can you PM your Transformers cartoon? Want to bronze it :-)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 19, 2008, 12:01:30 AM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 19, 2008, 12:26:52 AM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:

I never knew you had that much power Raph. You speak and the world media listens.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 19, 2008, 12:28:04 AM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: apocrypha on December 19, 2008, 12:36:34 AM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:

Intarweb karma  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 19, 2008, 03:58:13 AM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

Oh fuck, that's the new rickroll right there. Totally using that.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: IainC on December 19, 2008, 04:00:36 AM
This morning I had three emails in my inbox from colleagues and friends linking me to various iterations of this 'story'.

I weep for humanity.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 04:02:01 AM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:

Didn't just bring it down, it looks as though this non-story has actually run over your bandwidth quota. Might want to move to a lighter CMS with a lighter themeset. :awesome_for_real:

Of course, this could all be solved by the online media actually trying to make stories rather than steal blog posts and just bang on the keyboard hoping for the best. :|

Quote
This morning I had three emails in my inbox from colleagues and friends linking me to various iterations of this 'story'.

I weep for humanity.

Tell your colleagues to not be "dumb."


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Baldrake on December 19, 2008, 08:20:38 AM
Bruce on Games (http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/12/18/eight-news-stories-1812/) has picked it up.

I like Bruce. He's relentlessly self-promotional and I'd lay odds he's on Microsoft's payroll. But he's entertaining.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 19, 2008, 10:11:34 AM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:

Didn't just bring it down, it looks as though this non-story has actually run over your bandwidth quota. Might want to move to a lighter CMS with a lighter themeset. :awesome_for_real:


CPU usage probably, that's what usually brings it down. I am like a beaten puppy with this webhost, they keep doing this to me, and I keep renewing my hosting with them. :P


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: palmer_eldritch on December 19, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
I work in the media, and one of the trends is to encourage journalists to pick up stories from "social media", which apparently includes forums and blogs. So expect to see more of this.

On the topic of how employers view their staff: when I was trying to get my first job, one of the questions an editor asked me in an interview was how I intended to live on the salary they paid trainees, as it wasn't enough to live on. This wasn't said apologetically, and it wasn't an exaggeration. I guess it was meant to be a test of my resourcefulness or something.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 19, 2008, 10:46:42 AM
I work in the media, and one of the trends is to encourage journalists to pick up stories from "social media", which apparently includes forums. So expect to see more of this.


... have these people ever MET the internet? And they're going to believe things written on an internet forum?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 19, 2008, 10:55:13 AM
 :ye_gods:

Quote
Online gaming journalist Raph Koster has posted on his blog a statement he received from a job recruitment consultant accurately showing that even though some people cite the leadership experience gained from establishing a guild in WoW, employers tend to avoid such persons.

This is beyond belief. Tale, I guess you're not even in the story anymore.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 19, 2008, 10:56:40 AM
Raph, I'd give you the webhost info I gave Yeg, but I don't want to risk your machine-crashing blog ending up on one of the servers my organization is on.  :wink:

Edit while posting: Shame on you, taking credit for Tall Tale's work. ;D


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Obo on December 19, 2008, 11:34:24 AM
How long before it becomes "Ralph Costner refuses to hire WoW players!"?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 19, 2008, 11:38:56 AM
How long before it becomes "Ralph Costner refuses to hire WoW players!"?

Quick, email wonkette!

edit: I would also be horrified if someone's resume actively cited their guild as leadership experience for work. We're establishing a DKP system for stock options!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: cad187 on December 19, 2008, 11:47:50 AM
I work at the helpdesk for a local communications company and I play WOW.  I also work circles around my co-workers.  My projects are done on time, my tickets are done on time.  When my boss comes asking for volunteers for a new project, I'm the first one to to jump.  When my peers need assistance, they come ask me.

The manager of our server team plays WOW.  The rest of the server admins play some sort of online games regularly (FPS).  A friend that used to work with me who got me playing WOW also plays and was hired to support the UC Berkley network (this was a big promotion for him).

So to all you haters - remember this the next time you find yourself making a personal phone call or browsing the local news/weather sites, planning personal vacations or buying gifts online.  You're no better.



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: palmer_eldritch on December 19, 2008, 12:07:09 PM
Edit: Thought better of being snarky to cad187. No post here, sorry.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 19, 2008, 12:13:15 PM
It's too bad all those hot-linkers aren't actually reading this thread. It would be lovely if they knew how much we're making fun of them.

Raph, I don't suppose you'd be willing to link to the article that called you an "online gaming journalist?"


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: apocrypha on December 19, 2008, 12:14:36 PM
This is beyond belief. Tale, I guess you're not even in the story anymore.

Raph, if you want some more insight into the parlous state of journalism these days then check out Bad Science (http://www.badscience.net/). It's not gaming related in any way but it's horrifying, edifying and often very funny (in a tragic kind of way).


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ravanos on December 19, 2008, 12:51:41 PM
after dealing with the WoW playerbase ... I probably wouldn't hire a WoW player either.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 19, 2008, 12:57:15 PM
I work in the media, and one of the trends is to encourage journalists to pick up stories from "social media", which apparently includes forums. So expect to see more of this.


... have these people ever MET the internet? And they're going to believe things written on an internet forum?

9000 penises.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 01:10:19 PM
How long before it becomes "Ralph Costner refuses to hire WoW players!"?

Who?

:ye_gods:

Quote
Online gaming journalist Raph Koster has posted on his blog a statement he received from a job recruitment consultant accurately showing that even though some people cite the leadership experience gained from establishing a guild in WoW, employers tend to avoid such persons.

This is beyond belief. Tale, I guess you're not even in the story anymore.
Nothing is beyond belief with these amateur punks anymore. I'm so glad Shawn Elliot is doing a Games Journalism Symposium (http://shawnelliott.blogspot.com/2008/12/symposium-part-one-review-scores.html) so all those people can pretend to "be real" for a few minutes before not actually inciting any sort of change (I hope they prove me wrong).



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 19, 2008, 01:12:51 PM
I work at the helpdesk for a local communications company and I play WOW.  I also work circles around my co-workers.  My projects are done on time, my tickets are done on time.  When my boss comes asking for volunteers for a new project, I'm the first one to to jump.  When my peers need assistance, they come ask me.

The manager of our server team plays WOW.  The rest of the server admins play some sort of online games regularly (FPS).  A friend that used to work with me who got me playing WOW also plays and was hired to support the UC Berkley network (this was a big promotion for him).

So to all you haters - remember this the next time you find yourself making a personal phone call or browsing the local news/weather sites, planning personal vacations or buying gifts online.  You're no better.

Not really. You're just priding yourself as an exception above the rule.

This does not change the rule.

due to the way it mimics addictive dependency, in practice, if you are a big-time WoW player you are very likely to have shit sleep patterns, and there's very few WoW players who haven't skipped days and/or been late to work a number of times due to their gaming habits, and they'll usually admit it.

Also, if someone's a wow player and they work on a computer, I could bet dimes to dollars that their manager could open up their history and see hours wasted on the wow forums / armory / whatev.

WoW is just notoriously bad for work and it's something we've all known for a while now. It makes a good 'cull' tag for recruiters, so it's unsurprising that you would start seeing this.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Matt on December 19, 2008, 01:21:10 PM
edit: I would also be horrified if someone's resume actively cited their guild as leadership experience for work.

I've seen guild leadership framed as substantial leadership experience multiple times on resumes, and those resumes go right in the circular bin. It's not that you can't learn anything from leading a guild, imho. It's more that your judgement is suspect if you think the amount and quality of leadership experience you gain from running a guild is meaningful enough to include on a resume.

On the other hand, I look favorably upon candidates who play MMOs. In fact, I ask it in every interview and if you don't sound like you've got much or any experience with MMOs, your chances of getting hired are slim. I don't see where the fear about hiring WoW players would come in. My team is very productive. What they do when they go home is pretty irrelevant to me as long as they stay productive and make the lives of the people around them pleasant.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ravanos on December 19, 2008, 01:33:52 PM
edit: I would also be horrified if someone's resume actively cited their guild as leadership experience for work.

I've seen guild leadership framed as substantial leadership experience multiple times on resumes, and those resumes go right in the circular bin. It's not that you can't learn anything from leading a guild, imho. It's more that your judgement is suspect if you think the amount and quality of leadership experience you gain from running a guild is meaningful enough to include on a resume.

On the other hand, I look favorably upon candidates who play MMOs. In fact, I ask it in every interview and if you don't sound like you've got much or any experience with MMOs, your chances of getting hired are slim. I don't see where the fear about hiring WoW players would come in. My team is very productive. What they do when they go home is pretty irrelevant to me as long as they stay productive and make the lives of the people around them pleasant.

i can't wait till my next job asks my biggest achievement ... and say "well I have cleared all the raid content from EQ2 (pre-TSO)".

im sure ill be hired on the spot!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 01:44:14 PM
I work at the helpdesk for a local communications company and I play WOW.

Anecdotal exceptions are fun. The real question is, are you dumb enough to put a game on your CV or bring it up casually in an interview?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 19, 2008, 02:24:23 PM

You should have put that in the "WoW/Wii is making gamers stupider" thread.  I don't recall which one that is, but I'm sure you can find it.

I was going to go for the "Attention whores responding to their own drivel because no one else is" thread, but I'm pretty sure he can find that one too.
Actually, I just constantly elaborate on my thoughts, so it's normal for me to add things I "forgot" or thought of later. Quoting one self might seem pompous, but it's either elaboration on a previous statement or a random new statement which should have been related to the previous statement to actually make sense. Anyhow, not fighting to defend myself; just posting a different point of view :>




Not really. You're just priding yourself as an exception above the rule.

This does not change the rule.

Still proves there are exceptions. Not saying an employer would give a damn though.




By the way, how many people here a posting from work?  :grin:

(http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/ratman/compiling.png)
That image is actually on the outside of my office-door. May not be the best impression, but at least it's better than what was hanging there before.


Maybe I should hang this one up instead.
After all, I am front-line support.

(http://content.ytmnd.com/content/5/5/d/55d493713dd2209a924785ae05ac494c.jpg)




Edit: Added the following

I work at the helpdesk for a local communications company and I play WOW.

Anecdotal exceptions are fun. The real question is, are you dumb enough to put a game on your CV or bring it up casually in an interview?
Sadly, dishonesty and assumptions are a great part of the world, so that would be the worst idea ever.
Talking about previous gaming hobbies (as long as they are behind) shouldn't be an obstacle though, in my opinion. Depends about whether you're looking for the job of your life, or just being desperate for money. Being obsessive can be a good thing.

Then again, I'm talking out of my own mind. People are retarded - bosses are retarded.
Imagine being able to hire someone without any relevant education, and putting them in charge of the county dental network.
Hell, screw competence; talk the shit out of those employers, and you'll get the job!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 19, 2008, 02:46:04 PM

Raph, I don't suppose you'd be willing to link to the article that called you an "online gaming journalist?"

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Employers-Don-039-t-Like-World-of-Warcraft-Players-100354.shtml


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: IainC on December 19, 2008, 02:49:24 PM

Raph, I don't suppose you'd be willing to link to the article that called you an "online gaming journalist?"

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Employers-Don-039-t-Like-World-of-Warcraft-Players-100354.shtml
The use of language in that article makes me cringe. Where do these people learn to write?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 19, 2008, 02:52:46 PM

Raph, I don't suppose you'd be willing to link to the article that called you an "online gaming journalist?"

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Employers-Don-039-t-Like-World-of-Warcraft-Players-100354.shtml

Commenter: "I think this article is spot on".

(edit for the Scots - that site pointed me to something with a fantastic name (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/Internet-Radio-TV-Player/Jobee.shtml).)

Where do these people learn to write?

The internet.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Velorath on December 19, 2008, 03:01:16 PM
Nothing is beyond belief with these amateur punks anymore. I'm so glad Shawn Elliot is doing a Games Journalism Symposium (http://shawnelliott.blogspot.com/2008/12/symposium-part-one-review-scores.html) so all those people can pretend to "be real" for a few minutes before not actually inciting any sort of change (I hope they prove me wrong).

I don't think his goal is to really try and incite change.  I think John Davison gave a pretty clear example of why change doesn't happen:

Quote
Jeff Green and I spent a lot of time talking to Computer Gaming World readers, and trawling through our message boards to really try and put together the ultimate reviews section for the audience. We wanted to do something a bit different, but more than anything we wanted to acknowledge what a large group of our readers were telling us. That was, essentially, that "we're older" and "we're smarter" than the average gamer, so "treat us like that." They wanted longer, more considered think pieces about games, and it appeared, anecdotally at least, that review scores were not high on their list of priorities. They wanted, they said, to really understand what the reviewers were trying to convey. They wanted to really dig in.

So we gave them that. We took the scores off, and made the reviews longer. We actually went a step further, and tried to acknowledge the broader critical spectrum, and talk about what caused other reviews to express particularly positive or negative comments. It was our own little expression of idyllic critical idealism. A utopia of reviewing and we dreamt that it would spark enlightened and intelligent debate about specific qualities and opinion.

The reaction was spectacular. The readers really, really fucking HATED it. The most common complaint (I'm paraphrasing, but it was pretty consistent) was "How do I know what you think if you don't give it a score?" That and "you guys are retarded." We figured at first that it was simply a bit of culture shock and that it would wear off, but the negativity increased over time. After three months or so, we had to go back to putting a score out of five on the reviews just to stem the tide of vitriolic hatred.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 03:06:01 PM
Yes, much like the PVP Vocal Minority, listening to readers willing to give feedback won't help. But frankly, it would have to be a systemic change. Not a one-off shot from a magazine no one cares about anymore. But a systemic change will never ever happen, not because readers would hate it (they'd get over it, pronto), rather - advertising. That's all this industry is anyway.

Edit: Words are hard.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: tazelbain on December 19, 2008, 03:21:38 PM

Edit: Words are hard.
Sure, but please acknowledge the broader critical spectrum of your expression of idyllic critical idealism


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 03:23:34 PM

Edit: Words are hard.
Sure, but please acknowledge the broader critical spectrum of your expression of idyllic critical idealism
I give your post a 9.0 out of 10.3.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 19, 2008, 03:35:54 PM
The use of language in that article makes me cringe. Where do these people learn to write?
The same place they learn journalism.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 03:41:16 PM
The use of language in that article makes me cringe. Where do these people learn to write?
The same place they learn journalism.
That's too chicken and egg.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Senses on December 19, 2008, 04:32:28 PM
The irony here is that the story I heard so often a year or so ago about how companies we're actively seeking guild leadership in potential young candidates was probably started on this site as well.  I'm pretty sure the real answer is that noone gives a shit one way or the other. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 19, 2008, 04:35:04 PM
That's too chicken and egg.
Think of it more as a koan.

Alternatively:  They don't.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 04:36:18 PM
The irony here is that the story I heard so often a year or so ago about how companies we're actively seeking guild leadership in potential young candidates was probably started on this site as well.  I'm pretty sure the real answer is that noone gives a shit one way or the other. 

Nope, we just linked to it and then laughed about it.

Some people agreed, but mostly, that was bullshit also.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 19, 2008, 04:43:06 PM
The irony here is that the story I heard so often a year or so ago about how companies we're actively seeking guild leadership in potential young candidates was probably started on this site as well.  I'm pretty sure the real answer is that noone gives a shit one way or the other. 

No, see the original post in this thread for the Wired magazine story which started that talk. I linked to it. We're going in circles again.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 19, 2008, 05:17:01 PM
The irony here is that the story I heard so often a year or so ago about how companies we're actively seeking guild leadership in potential young candidates was probably started on this site as well.  I'm pretty sure the real answer is that noone gives a shit one way or the other.
Not necessarily. There's never just one alternative being chosen for answer or conclusion.

Factors as practical hobbies are nothing but an illusion anyway - since you have your opinion on practical things, it becomes an illusion. Those few people in the world, able to extract abstract qualities from a person by simply asking questions, will see the truth of whether or not you're in a shit position if they actually hire you.

Then again, no one's perfect. Look for qualities of people, not quantities of employees. Knowing how ones employees work is what gives the most potential for efficiency and profit.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 19, 2008, 05:31:09 PM
Another example of the story changing as it gets passed along ... now it's only European recruiters who don't want WoW players: Employers to recruiters: Don't send us WoW players  (http://www.examiner.com/x-892-Seattle-PC-Game-Examiner~y2008m12d17-Dont-hire-WoW-players)

Quote
An article courtesy of GameIndustry.biz reports that some recruiters -- in Europe, anyway -- may be instructed to screen out World of Warcraft players for employment ...

Me to European employers: Quit being idiots.

The reason he assumes this is about Europe? Because he stole it from GamesIndustry.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/employers-screening-world-of-warcraft-players) who stole it from Eurogamer.net (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/employers-screening-wow-players) who stole it from Raph (http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/). The writer sees "Eurogamer.net" and it becomes Europe's fault.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 19, 2008, 05:43:47 PM
This has to be a joke that everybody's in on. Nobody could be this stupid!!!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 05:44:41 PM
Another example of the story changing as it gets passed along ... now it's only European recruiters who don't want WoW players: Employers to recruiters: Don't send us WoW players  (http://www.examiner.com/x-892-Seattle-PC-Game-Examiner~y2008m12d17-Dont-hire-WoW-players)

Quote
An article courtesy of GameIndustry.biz reports that some recruiters -- in Europe, anyway -- may be instructed to screen out World of Warcraft players for employment ...

Me to European employers: Quit being idiots.

The reason he assumes this is about Europe? Because he stole it from GamesIndustry.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/employers-screening-world-of-warcraft-players) who stole it from Eurogamer.net (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/employers-screening-wow-players) who stole it from Raph (http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/). The writer sees "Eurogamer.net" and it becomes Europe's fault.

I'm glad you're tracking this, I'm too angry.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Merusk on December 19, 2008, 05:47:09 PM
This has to be a joke that everybody's in on. Nobody could be this stupid!!!

Research takes precious time that isn't available in this digitial instant-messaging eon of ours.   If you can source it to a 'legitimate' news site, well, SOMEONE must've researched it, rite?

We've seen other cases of rumors or stupid posts turning into mainstream messages of fear and warning. Why should it surprise you that one started from this site instead of another for once?  It's not just Gaming "journalism" that fails in such spectacular fashion, it's just what gets under Schild's skin the most.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 19, 2008, 05:55:56 PM
It's a little further than under my skin this time, for the record.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 19, 2008, 06:09:48 PM
I'm glad you're tracking this, I'm too angry.

Not really, I just looked at what was tracked on Google News: http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1280896286

This amateur-ish one (http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11000&Itemid=1) made me laugh.

The guy obviously read Fark quoting Silicon Alley Insider's line "No matter how proud you are of your Level 80 Death Knight, don't list "World of Warcraft" on your resume as a hobby. In the plagiarised version, this becomes "It does not matter how proud you are of your 19th level Death Knight, under no circumstances list WoW as an interest on your CV". Change the level, they'll never notice!

My line "Their attention is elsewhere and their sleeping patterns are often not great" becomes part of the article, not a quote. And "According to Alleyinsider, Headhunters generally warn WoW players not to mention their hobby on their CV, as many companies will just throw them in the rubbish bin." He just made that line up - Alleyinsider didn't say any such thing.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 19, 2008, 06:54:39 PM
This right here is the perfect example of why the internet does not solve basic communication problems. People trust the portal they read shit from and rarely dig any further. Heck, what's the chances most people will read the whole article anyway? So the portal can get away with anything they want.

This itself would be a good research project for someone looking to do an expose on reporting.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 19, 2008, 07:02:06 PM
Not really. You're just priding yourself as an exception above the rule.

This does not change the rule.

Still proves there are exceptions. Not saying an employer would give a damn though.

There's exceptions for everything. I know heroin addicts who are still functional employees. It doesn't keep the fact from pretty much being that WoW play is something you can actionably screen for.

What employers are going to be (or already are) doing with this WoW discrimination is little different than when they disqualify GED earners or when they enforce mandatory pee/hair tests for marijuana use, or when they use psych questionnaires as part of the application process: it's a wide-cast discriminatory net that is attempting to thin the applicant pool through cheap and easy mass disqualification.

Actionable data like 'smokes pot' is stuff that they love. Even if you engage in recreational pot use that legitimately does not interfere with your ability to work as a data entry guy, a large company knows that on the macro level it's easier and more efficient to cast a blanket ban on that activity as an employee filter, due to the behavioral correlations to pot-smoking demographics and shit.

Something like 'plays WoW' is just going to end up as the latest dragnet data for a few industries due to MMO playing prevalence in some demographics, like young male tech professionals, because it is true that it is a negative attribute for potential employers that they can potentially benefit from screening out.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 19, 2008, 07:13:31 PM
It's a little further than under my skin this time, for the record.

Are you crawling in your skin? Those wounds, do they not heal?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 20, 2008, 03:08:33 AM
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346230

I bet that link gets picked up by the media if they aren't already sleeping through the new year. Or playing too many new games to bother. /irony


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 20, 2008, 03:19:17 AM
I've been following this story around a bit and I'm upset that some of the comments are as dumb as some of the reports. Things not to do:

1. Compare it to religious or racial differences.

Why? Wake me up when being black or white or muslim or jewish makes you have fucked up sleep schedules, become horrible at having a structured life, and spend too much time on, arguably, the forums with the worst s:n in the industry.

What a shitty goddamn point to try and argue. Just daft.

2. Don't try to compare it to other games. There are 11 million WoW players. The other games are a drop in the bucket and not even worth mentioning, at least not in english speaking countries. But by extension, being addicted - I don't mean casually playing - but being addicted to any online game isn't exactly healthy. I'd know. I've been that way before. Generally, and luckily for me I suppose, it tends to fade within oh, 48 hours. If that. And I'm also willing to use vacation time for games since I hate trips unless they're somewhere very, very far away. Road trips need not apply. As such, my addictiveness may seem... moreso here on f13 because it manifests itself more often as I play on a monitor next to another monitor that has the forums on it.

3. Do not talk about this in relation to the gaming industry.

This was not, is not, and shouldn't be about the gaming industry. If you're commenting on whether the gaming industry should allow this sort of filtration - well, shit, it's just like any other industry. They don't want useless sacks of flesh, they want people who's productivity can be equated to profit. If you're talking about this, it mostly means you are on a site that fucked up the original story to begin with. Which makes my teeth gnash.

I'll end with that. There's too much stupid brewing on the net this week. Also it's too close to Christmas, so I'm just not feeling it any further than that.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 20, 2008, 06:17:22 AM
I only disagree with #2.

Most diku-inspired MMOs are like this. Addiction in this genre has always been talked about. And anecdotes about work performance have always been talked about. WoW made it mass, but it is neither unique in this genre nor unique in general.

Welcome to the age of crowd-sourced journalism, where everyone in the industry is so afraid to miss the next big article that they copy/paste everything in the hopes of attaching their name to it. So their new gophers compare topics against lists and come up with corrolations like "Raph made game" "WoW big game" "economy and hiring are down" and spit out certain links that never bother getting to the source because the publisher knows their audience ain't going to care either.

The next stage of this discussion will be medical and psychological pundits who talk about the same crap they did when Shawn Woolly commited suicide over EQ1. But they'll miss the same things most other people do. Instead of talking about WoW, or even just MMOs, they should be focused on how the easy proliferation of tools and systems (games, blogs, forums, stat sites, etc) has made certain activities much easier to become addicted to. And how that is complemented by a good chunk of basic human nature.

And that's everything from fantasy leagues to DIY home and computer sites to politics to online purchases to e-trading. Oh, and to MMOs to.

That is the topic. Combating and filtering for that is really what the employers are doing.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 20, 2008, 08:42:58 AM
Going way, way back, Tale's meal with his online media recruiter friend in Australia and that discussion apparently has worldwide implications.

The reality - that guys involved in online media don't want their employees spending that time and bandwidth on WoW - is apparently a shock to people in North America, Europe and beyond.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 20, 2008, 10:19:17 AM
Really, I'm just curious as to why anyone anywhere would be surprised by this.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fabricated on December 20, 2008, 10:39:47 AM
Internet journalism.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 20, 2008, 11:51:09 AM
Really, I'm just curious as to why anyone anywhere would be surprised by this.
I'm surprised by how viral it's gotten.  The idiocy surrounding it not so much.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 20, 2008, 03:13:25 PM
Really, I'm just curious as to why anyone anywhere would be surprised by this.

Yea, I've asked that question a few times in this thread, I don't think we'll ever get an answer.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 20, 2008, 03:25:54 PM
It's not a surprising news item, it's a compelling news item for millions of people playing MMORPGs, a number of whom are addicted and trying to tell themselves it's OK. Like a "your obesity/smoking/bungee-jumping will eventually kill you" story. Obvious, but clickable. Like the top 100 most-clicked stories (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24783711-5014262,00.html) of the year - can you see an actual hard news story among them?

This story hasn't gone particularly viral, it's just a clickable item for a known audience of people who live their lives online, so everybody who wants traffic from that audience needs a rewritten copy for the clicks.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: mutantmagnet on December 20, 2008, 04:01:30 PM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

Oh fuck, that's the new rickroll right there. Totally using that.

No!

This should be the new rickroll.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ztd3WfgSu-w&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ztd3WfgSu-w&feature=related)



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 20, 2008, 04:25:54 PM
Ah, the irony. It brought down MY site.  :ye_gods:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

Oh fuck, that's the new rickroll right there. Totally using that.

No!

This should be the new rickroll.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ztd3WfgSu-w&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ztd3WfgSu-w&feature=related)



Jesus that kid's got some serious gums.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 20, 2008, 07:38:51 PM
No!

This should be the new rickroll.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ztd3WfgSu-w&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ztd3WfgSu-w&feature=related)


ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 20, 2008, 07:40:43 PM
Wait, IT GETS BETTER!!! Emphasis mine,  :grin:

Quote
The news bit started down in the message board trenches, so take it with the grain of salt it deserves, but the corporate reasoning has a certain verisimilitude. This, along with the fact that the blog that originally hosted this story has been suspended does raise some questions. However, it is too early at this juncture to rule out accusations of libel or simple excessive traffic as explanations for the blog’s disappearance.

 :awesome_for_real:

Link:

http://www.pixelsocks.com/2008/12/19/there-must-be-a-discrimination/


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 20, 2008, 07:56:37 PM
Round on up boys, we gotta go git Raph from the clink!

Edit to add: Schild, I know you can do something with this. This is the best indictment of "journalism" we've seen in a while, particularly since it's so benign and the truth so obvious. This would beat out the Vanguard story fer sure!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: mutantmagnet on December 20, 2008, 08:03:43 PM
Round on up boys, we gotta go git Raph from the clink!

Edit to add: Schild, I know you can do something with this. This is the best indictment of "journalism" we've seen in a while, particularly since it's so benign and the truth so obvious. This would beat out the Vanguard story fer sure!

:I
Are you being facetious or do you seriously expect people to absorb the magnitude of the folly here? Connecting the dots is more sophisticated than a sob story about employees fired in a parking lot.

I'm not saying don't do it. I just sure this won't be received as well as the Vanguard debacle.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 20, 2008, 08:07:17 PM
The VG stuff was a very niche audience. Exposing the lunacy of what amounts to an everyman article though, that's gotta be something. Even if it's just a slap in the face by the very community for which WoW was created, that's going to embarrass some people. Maybe not enough to change anything, but it'd be fun to write and publish.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 20, 2008, 08:15:56 PM
Edit to add: Schild, I know you can do something with this. This is the best indictment of "journalism" we've seen in a while, particularly since it's so benign and the truth so obvious. This would beat out the Vanguard story fer sure!

Filed under "Things not worth the effort."

Edit: To add, it's not worth the effort because it's so plainly out there. Anyone could find it if they actually like linked to the forums and read this thread. It's not exactly an "indictment" so much as further proof that journalism is dead. Yay to them though. They win.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 21, 2008, 12:15:08 AM
at least lets collect a saved image of the iterations that this story went through.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 21, 2008, 02:38:30 AM
I stumbled on another example of "telephone". I'm thinking about buying a Samsung NC10 netbook and wondered if a new version might be due soon, so I searched for NC11 and NC20.

Ubergizmo says: (http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/12/samsung_nc11_about_to_roll_out.html) "The 160GB hard drive on the NC10 has also been "downgraded" to just 120GB on the NC11. What gives, Samsung? Are you guys missing the plot? Progress is supposed to come with new models, and not the other way around! Something tells me the 2010 Samsung NC20 will be powered by a 486–DX2 66MHz with 8MB RAM, and will run Windows 3.11."

HaloTEKNO steals this as: (http://www.halotekno.com/laptops/samsung-nc11-soon-release-while-samsung-nc20-on-the-project/) "there will also Samsung NC20 which is targeted release in 2010 that will be powered by a 486–DX2 66MHz with 8MB RAM, and will run Windows 3.11. So have to wait is it true or just only a rumor, if i know the answer, i will tell you in next article."

:-)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 21, 2008, 02:49:39 AM
at least lets collect a saved image of the iterations that this story went through.

My new life as a famous games designer is going great. I think that journalist guy Raph will be out on his bicycle now. Can I play you a song about a unicorn?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fabricated on December 21, 2008, 11:55:50 AM
I'm waiting for a new PA comic myself. That'd be the icing on the cake.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Glazius on December 21, 2008, 03:18:15 PM
I stumbled on another example of "telephone". I'm thinking about buying a Samsung NC10 netbook and wondered if a new version might be due soon, so I searched for NC11 and NC20.

Ubergizmo says: (http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/12/samsung_nc11_about_to_roll_out.html) "The 160GB hard drive on the NC10 has also been "downgraded" to just 120GB on the NC11. What gives, Samsung? Are you guys missing the plot? Progress is supposed to come with new models, and not the other way around! Something tells me the 2010 Samsung NC20 will be powered by a 486–DX2 66MHz with 8MB RAM, and will run Windows 3.11."

HaloTEKNO steals this as: (http://www.halotekno.com/laptops/samsung-nc11-soon-release-while-samsung-nc20-on-the-project/) "there will also Samsung NC20 which is targeted release in 2010 that will be powered by a 486–DX2 66MHz with 8MB RAM, and will run Windows 3.11. So have to wait is it true or just only a rumor, if i know the answer, i will tell you in next article."

:-)

Man, that's not telephone, that's a guided sarcasm missile. Ouch.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: chargerrich on December 22, 2008, 09:15:20 AM
There certainly is a place and a need in some professions to work 60+ hours a week. However most of the posters here are not in those industries. Doctors, Lawyers and Politicians (if you call politicing work) all probably "work" or are on call 60 hours a week.

But for the majority of us in a cube farm, office, IT shop, et al. working 60 hours a week as a salaried employee (read no OT) on anything but an emergency "once in a while to meet a deadline" is just stupid.

Those types of hours do not make you a hard worker, they make you (check all that apply):

1. gullable
2. bitter
3. underpaid
4. unhealthy

Now if I were an African wildlife photographer or the GM of the San Diego Chargers, then 60 hours would be a given and enjoyable. But since I do platform banking software... well.sigh. /facepalm


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 23, 2008, 08:17:24 AM
Not really. You're just priding yourself as an exception above the rule.

This does not change the rule.

Still proves there are exceptions. Not saying an employer would give a damn though.

There's exceptions for everything. I know heroin addicts who are still functional employees. It doesn't keep the fact from pretty much being that WoW play is something you can actionably screen for.

What employers are going to be (or already are) doing with this WoW discrimination is little different than when they disqualify GED earners or when they enforce mandatory pee/hair tests for marijuana use, or when they use psych questionnaires as part of the application process: it's a wide-cast discriminatory net that is attempting to thin the applicant pool through cheap and easy mass disqualification.

Actionable data like 'smokes pot' is stuff that they love. Even if you engage in recreational pot use that legitimately does not interfere with your ability to work as a data entry guy, a large company knows that on the macro level it's easier and more efficient to cast a blanket ban on that activity as an employee filter, due to the behavioral correlations to pot-smoking demographics and shit.

Something like 'plays WoW' is just going to end up as the latest dragnet data for a few industries due to MMO playing prevalence in some demographics, like young male tech professionals, because it is true that it is a negative attribute for potential employers that they can potentially benefit from screening out.

Exactly.

Rather interesting, that Heroin. If the police catch you with it, you're screwed. But if you've contacted someone in the public sector, asking for help to quit, you get a card saying "Heroin Addict". So then you show that to the cops next time they catch you with a needle in your arm, which makes them go like "aaaaaaaahhhh!" and walk away, *waving* wishing you the best of luck.

Next year you're back on your feet, and have a wonderful job. Just because the government decided to distribute the drug to addicts, which gave you time to do other things, besides gathering money for heroin.

This poses a somewhat paradox between heroin addicts and gamers, as to which is the better of two evils?
Difference here is between mind and matter. Actually, the only problem for heroin addicts (-receiving free heroin) is socializing with people, in case they would have come from a long time in a bad environment, when the problem of the gamer would be socializing in real-life at all (not always) and staying away from games at work.

I'd probably hire a heroin addict over a gamer, if the government gave him free heroin. Everybody have their evils.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 23, 2008, 11:54:53 AM
It's possible to remain minimally functional on heroin for a long time. You can go to work every day, get your shit done, then come home and shoot up. It has a very different addiction profile than uppers like meth or cocaine. You can remain actively abusing the drug for years on end and retain a job to pay for it as well. You won't be good at any non-menial job for any length of time, and you certainly won't be useful off-hours or anything like that because you'll be doped to the gills, but it's very possible to maintain on heroin for years, before resistance builds up to a point where it's unsustainable financially. You can hide heroin abuse while meth/crack addicts are immediately obvious.

Of course that's all academic because I instantly fire anyone using anything but pot. Most memorably, I had one jackass doing speedballs in the bathroom. We didn't catch him for the drugs, though. After shooting up he felt compelled to masturbate to completion. Loudly.

Gaming is a behavioral compulsion akin to gambling or shopping while drugs create physical dependencies, and opiates are by far the worst, with the highest rates of recidivism as addicts literally never feel pleasure again once they get off the drug. Opiates are evil. Saying you'd rather hire a heroin addict than a gamer isn't clever, it just exposes your own lack of sophistication.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: ghost on December 23, 2008, 12:11:32 PM

I'd probably hire a heroin addict over a gamer, if the government gave him free heroin. Everybody have their evils.

This is fucking stupid.  I hope you aren't in charge of hiring people in what you do. 


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 23, 2008, 03:36:45 PM
(...)
Saying you'd rather hire a heroin addict than a gamer isn't clever, it just exposes your own lack of sophistication.
Not rather, but probably. I was actually hoping people would think further, realizing that it wouldn't be the final factor for actual employment. Whether or not it is clever, is another thing. I always think twice of things, and that statement was based on the fact that I have worked with a current heroin-addict, and both seen and experienced the effects at a workplace.

Maybe I'll change my mind, or maybe I won't.
What I do know is that some gamers and some heroin-addicts do a good job, while some others don't. I'd say it relies more on the person, than the evil.




I'd probably hire a heroin addict over a gamer, if the government gave him free heroin. Everybody have their evils.

This is fucking stupid.  I hope you aren't in charge of hiring people in what you do. 
That I am not.

Your reaction to the statement indicates that you have worse thoughts about heroin-addicts than gamers, and weigh the heroin-addicts as the worse evil. That's a matter of opinion. And even if we had someone in this forum wanting to talk from experience with both cases, I am very certain the reality is that some do good while some others do worse.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 23, 2008, 03:53:39 PM
I can speak to both cases from the management perspective. While I'm sure you could bring up the extremes of either, it's quite reasonable to label comparing opiates to videogames incredibly fucking stupid.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 23, 2008, 04:24:02 PM
Unless their skills were such that they could perform regardless, I wouldn't be hiring any addicts.  Sure there are exceptions, but is an interview going to tell you enough about a person to let you know they buck the trends on addiction interfering with other aspects of their lives?

If it's not interfering, it's not so much an addiction as a vice.  If you have a small pool of applicants maybe you can dig down enough to figure it out.  If you've got tons, they're going in the trash first pass.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 23, 2008, 04:39:30 PM
I can speak to both cases from the management perspective. While I'm sure you could bring up the extremes of either, it's quite reasonable to label comparing opiates to videogames incredibly fucking stupid.
You say: necessarily. I say: Not necessarily. Clearly, we disagree. And by this, I reckon we have reached the end of our sub-discussion.

I'll keep in mind, what you said. And I hope you, not as a manager, but as a person keep in mind the two words: not necessarily. A manager should be cynical and generalize as much as possible. Surely, much unique competence will be left undiscovered, but that is the way of this world. Keeping distance from opiates and moderating gaming obsessions would be the answer to those whom the issue originated from.

&BTW: Merry Christmas =)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Cheddar on December 23, 2008, 04:48:37 PM
This is getting silly.  Got 2 emails now from buddies quoting "news" articles about this.  Wow.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 23, 2008, 09:19:52 PM
Even the New York Times gets it wrong, saying I was in a job interview and I mentioned games "with disastrous results": http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/world-of-warcraft-players-need-not-apply/


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 23, 2008, 09:23:11 PM
Interesting. Now it's time to edit the first post. Sorry Tale.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 23, 2008, 09:25:05 PM
Also, I'm gonna bury it here, but I wanted the original edit to read: "Jenna Wortham must be SUPER hot because she can't read for shit." But I'm not feeling very sexist today. Catch me on a Thursday.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 23, 2008, 09:42:25 PM
Hat trick!

I feel a lot better having done that.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Margalis on December 23, 2008, 09:51:31 PM
At SE we don't hire anyone who playes FFXI. The game is a total time-sink and the last thing we want is people skipping work or coming in all tired because they spent all night fighting a boss for 18 hours straight. Except Red Mages. Their ability to multitask makes them extremely valuable employees.

I swear to god this is 100% true and I look forward to being quoted in the New York Times. Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: tazelbain on December 23, 2008, 11:40:16 PM
But wouldn't it be awesome if it was true.  Like developers finally admit they are produceing skinner box bullshit that exploit adictive behavior instead of pretending they are making games.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 24, 2008, 12:30:54 AM
Hat trick!

I feel a lot better having done that.

Coulda put goatsex in there. Maybe the next headline for the NYT could be "Reputable fact checking news site links to crazy porn meme!"


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Raph on December 24, 2008, 01:17:06 AM
What, I don't get edited into the first post? I thought I was the journalist who broke this story!  :oh_i_see:

Even the NYT... sheesh.

I wonder if I can get THIS story BoingBoinged? Hmm...  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: WindupAtheist on December 24, 2008, 01:17:45 AM
Oh. My. God.

Edit to the OP is unadulterated epic win.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 24, 2008, 01:22:45 AM
What, I don't get edited into the first post? I thought I was the journalist who broke this story!  :oh_i_see:

Even the NYT... sheesh.

I wonder if I can get THIS story BoingBoinged? Hmm...  :awesome_for_real:

We're not done.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fordel on December 24, 2008, 02:38:04 AM
I hear they have the internet on computers now!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 24, 2008, 02:50:16 AM
Just a little side-note: If you're going to tell, on a job interview, that you play or played World of Warcraft, don't tell them you played Alliance =D
Thanks to Massively for a priceless image, or maybe they stole that too (oh snap!)

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.massively.com/media/2008/12/wowplayersscreenedfromjobs425px.jpg)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on December 24, 2008, 04:03:59 AM
Schildy - no mention of the Seattle PC Game Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-892-Seattle-PC-Game-Examiner~y2008m12d17-Dont-hire-WoW-players)? It was linked once - I think it's worth linking again because the guy writing the article even proudly proclaims his 15 years of professional freelance journalism experience and yet still gets the story so very and entirely wrong.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 24, 2008, 04:07:53 AM
Ah thanks, added.

Man, what a bunch of douchebags. The whole lot of them.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 24, 2008, 04:42:28 AM
The next wave is journalists quoting the New York Times.

For example, Techradar (http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/world-of-warcraft-army-tops-11-5-million-496976): "The New York Times is reporting that some employers are specifically excluding WoW players from vacancies. The paper quotes a recruiter saying, "There is a belief that WoW players cannot give 100% because their focus is elsewhere, their sleeping patterns are often not great, etc.'"

So now it becomes the NYT interviewing a recruiter, when the quote is actually my paraphrasing of somebody else's words.

The only journalist who has done a proper job is a German journalist by the name of Steffen Kraft, who asked for my phone number to call me and verify my post. Unfortunately I refused, so I was no help, but it appears Steffen Kraft is a good, ethical journalist whose work you can trust.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Goreschach on December 24, 2008, 04:57:44 AM
The next wave is journalists quoting the New York Times.

No, the next wave is when businesses get wind of this and start screening against WoW players, so as to not be left behind in productivity management.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 24, 2008, 05:01:07 AM
Oh hey, Techradar. Awesome. Another fuckup.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 24, 2008, 05:17:59 AM
I'd rather hire a heroin addict than someone who wears puppy entrails as a hat.

Just sayin.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 24, 2008, 05:19:01 AM
Hey Schild back to the awesomeness of machine translations ... I asked Google Translate to decipher what Power Unlimited (http://www.powerweb.nl/headlines/WoW_discriminatie.aspx?id=272) was saying about all this:

Met het schaamrood op mijn kaken heb die game bij de lokale gamesboer gehaald. Best stom eigenlijk. = With the disarray that my jaws got game at the local game farm met. Best stupid, really.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Lantyssa on December 24, 2008, 09:29:57 AM
The stupidity is Epic.  At least it's bringing me some holiday cheer.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: HaemishM on December 24, 2008, 09:38:35 AM
Jesus Fucking Christ on a stick. People are still linking to this thread with the wrong idea about what it said? Fuck, I barely skimmed the OP and realized he wasn't looking for a job. Schild, you got it right in editing the OP. That is truly epic lulz.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fabricated on December 24, 2008, 11:16:50 AM
Look at what you've done Tale. You've trolled the world.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Pennilenko on December 24, 2008, 11:49:51 AM
I've recieved emails from my mother and some ex coworkers (Not one of them surfs the net). All of them forwarding this "WoW players can't get jobs!" email they got from other coworkers.


 :uhrr:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fabricated on December 24, 2008, 12:15:13 PM
Quote from: NYT
As one commenter put it rather bluntly, “It’s like telling them you’re into BDSM or something…once they know they’ll always look at you differently.”

WoW is BDSM.

I've recieved emails from my mother and some ex coworkers (Not one of them surfs the net). All of them forwarding this "WoW players can't get jobs!" email they got from other coworkers.

 :uhrr:
Ahahahahah


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slayerik on December 24, 2008, 12:29:37 PM
Quote from: N Y TIMES
World of Warcraft Players Need Not Apply
By Jenna Wortham
CLARIFICATION 12:50 PM — This post has been clarified to include information about the original conversation involving World of Warcraft. It was not an interview, just a casual conversation.

Hah!
Quote from: N Y TIMES
Still, most of the readers in the F13 comment section shared a similar sentiment: When in doubt about the job compatibility of your gaming alter ego, the best policy might be to stay mum.

As one commenter put it rather bluntly, “It’s like telling them you’re into BDSM or something…once they know they’ll always look at you differently.”


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 24, 2008, 12:47:36 PM
Oh dang, let's see how many times we can get them to correct themselves. Next let's say they're from Iceland and it was SWG they were talking about!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Pezzle on December 24, 2008, 01:10:15 PM
Her next entry should be about the repeated failures of online 'journalism' to get stories correct.  We have a perfect case, nearly two dozen agencies, including high profile groups like the New York Times.  Failure to read the source, failure to read the discussion.  Do these people need to fill space so badly they will blindly scrawl out anything that includes WoW?

We could make up stories for more comedy.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Merusk on December 24, 2008, 02:17:30 PM
I'm going to smugly assume my comment on P2 of her blog lead her to actually read the damn post here.  Based solely on the fact that she was also quoting one of her other commentators with the BSDM thing.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: IainC on December 24, 2008, 02:19:00 PM
I'm going to smugly assume my comment on P2 of her blog lead her to actually read the damn post here.  Based solely on the fact that she was also quoting one of her other commentators with the BSDM thing.
I left a comment with the same general theme as yours. Mine didn't get past the moderation queue though.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Merusk on December 24, 2008, 02:22:59 PM
It may depend on when you left it.  I wrote it at 11:30 last night and it wasn't approved until mid-morning today.   I figure any comments after 9:30 est or so won't get modded until Monday thanks to the holiday.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: HaemishM on December 24, 2008, 03:40:51 PM
Do these people need to fill space so badly they will blindly scrawl out anything that includes WoW?

Yes. Some of these fuckers exist solely because larger corporate entities needed "something on this interweb thingy that the damn kids like."


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 24, 2008, 03:46:09 PM
To be fair, that was a blog hosted by the nytimes, not the newspaper itself. It's not exactly surprising that blogs aren't held to high journalistic standards.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: HaemishM on December 24, 2008, 03:49:16 PM
Unless, of course, you're a blog run by one of the largest and most well-known newspapers in existence. Then you are kind of obligated to maintain some basic level of journalistic integrity, even if it's nothing more than reading comprehension slightly above the level of a dried turnip.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on December 24, 2008, 05:07:08 PM
I left a comment too, mentioning that someone might want to actually read the thread. I was surprised it was posted, just because the very first post makes the NYTimes look bad.

Heh. And the correction still got it wrong. Well...technically it's correct, the same way it's technically correct to say I'm personally orbitting the sun.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Yoru on December 24, 2008, 07:22:04 PM
This thread truly has the spirit of Christmas in it. It never, ever stops giving.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Samprimary on December 25, 2008, 02:39:58 PM
Do these people need to fill space so badly they will blindly scrawl out anything that includes WoW?

Yes. Some of these fuckers exist solely because larger corporate entities needed "something on this interweb thingy that the damn kids like."

whoa, whoa, whoa. you lost me, frank. Internet?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kERRA on December 25, 2008, 08:10:35 PM
You saw it - I was the first one to ask for boob signage!
Just don't tattoo it in like a friend of mine did to Elijah Wood's autograph.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: shiznitz on December 26, 2008, 10:24:58 AM

I'd probably hire a heroin addict over a gamer, if the government gave him free heroin. Everybody have their evils.

This is fucking stupid.  I hope you aren't in charge of hiring people in what you do. 

Yes, but think about it. Heroin addicts don't surf the web looking for strats and spend time on message boards in preparation for a hit when they get home.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 27, 2008, 02:02:53 PM
Sorry to bring the thread back. Joystiq even had an attorney write about this (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/12/24/lgj-wrath-of-the-discrimination-king/).

It includes the sentence "I'm not aware of any religious groups that hold gaming as a tenant of their beliefs". If that's the attorney writing, rather than bad editing, I'd be suspicious of advice from someone who doesn't know the word is "tenet".

edit - As a journalist myself, the most disgraceful thing is that NOT ONE FUCKING JOURNALIST HAS TALKED TO A RECRUITER ABOUT THIS EXCEPT ME. You fucking pissants - how hard is it to ring one and get a grab?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Phildo on December 27, 2008, 05:12:32 PM
And how many of them have contacted you, Tale?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: waffel on December 27, 2008, 05:13:39 PM
'Journalists' are getting PAID to butcher the shit out of stories like this?

Holy shit, I picked the wrong profession. What do you have to do to get a job as a journalist? Scribble your resume in crayon?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 27, 2008, 05:36:03 PM

I'd probably hire a heroin addict over a gamer, if the government gave him free heroin. Everybody have their evils.

This is fucking stupid.  I hope you aren't in charge of hiring people in what you do. 

Yes, but think about it. Heroin addicts don't surf the web looking for strats and spend time on message boards in preparation for a hit when they get home.
Indeed! While the gamer is spamming the F5 button on 15 different browser-tabs in the hours after lunch, the heroin addict is joyful, increasing productivity and placing a smile on co-workers' faces, due to the thought of that a new hit is just a couple of hours away!

*WORK WORK WORK*

Oh joy. Let's all start doing heroin. Great thread, Tale!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2008, 12:31:46 AM
Sorry to bring the thread back. Joystiq even had an attorney write about this (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/12/24/lgj-wrath-of-the-discrimination-king/).

It includes the sentence "I'm not aware of any religious groups that hold gaming as a tenant of their beliefs". If that's the attorney writing, rather than bad editing, I'd be suspicious of advice from someone who doesn't know the word is "tenet".

edit - As a journalist myself, the most disgraceful thing is that NOT ONE FUCKING JOURNALIST HAS TALKED TO A RECRUITER ABOUT THIS EXCEPT ME. You fucking pissants - how hard is it to ring one and get a grab?

He even made a bad photoshop to go with the "story".

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2008/12/2099489154_33aa5065b0.jpg)

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Jain Zar on December 28, 2008, 02:14:52 PM
Today it was on Yahoo's front page as one of the mini story links to their shitty blog articles areas.

I was almost proud little old F13 had gotten some notice.  Then you see the linked front page bit.

And then its pride in more of a "Making fun of the ever more inept excuse for journalism" sort of way.

Man, I already knew you never trust anyone with an MBA, but now we need to add not to trust anyone with a Journalism degree?
(Not that half the YOU SUCK WEBSITE writers have anything resembling a degree mind you...)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Furiously on December 28, 2008, 07:38:31 PM
It's a good sensationalistic story. Tale has anyone contacted you to actually get ahold of the recruiter. Or are they really that shifty of journalists?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 29, 2008, 12:04:43 AM
Hay guise, I red on teh intarnet thot teh NYT fired all of it's emploeeys who playd Everquest!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 29, 2008, 02:49:47 AM
It's a good sensationalistic story. Tale has anyone contacted you to actually get ahold of the recruiter. Or are they really that shifty of journalists?

I've had three messages about this thread.

1. Steffen Kraft, German journalist, asking to phone me and the recruiter.
2. Steffen Kraft, German journalist, asking how the hell I can reply in German (I was an exchange student) and asking for phone details again (I said no, sorry).
3. Schild telling me he edited my original post.

I am not the story, so I wouldn't expect to be contacted except for the recruiter's details (I haven't even told him about all this, but I probably will). But if I were writing from an unsubstantiated message board post, my instinct would be to call a recruitment company and get their view. Even if they laughed and said "what's World of Warcraft?" it would be a useful addition to the story. If they said "no, we wouldn't discriminate" or "yes, WoW players are poison", it would also help. It's pathetic that nobody has added anything to the story.

Although somebody in Singapore might have (http://blogs.straitstimes.com/2008/12/24/first-to-hit-level-80-sshhhh): "Read the full report on employers attitude towards gamers by Chua Hian Hou, Level 72 Templar, in The Straits Times today."


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 29, 2008, 03:00:12 AM
Although somebody in Singapore might have (http://blogs.straitstimes.com/2008/12/24/first-to-hit-level-80-sshhhh): "Read the full report on employers attitude towards gamers by Chua Hian Hou, Level 72 Templar, in The Straits Times today."

Given the article at the link and stuff like: "But it wasn’t all wasted time, and studies have shown that online games like these can teach skills from leadership to project management."

I highly doubt he added a damn thing.

First of all, studies like that really piss my shit off simply because, well, they're bullshit. Yea, they can teach leadership and project management. But going from zero to one doesn't make you a good leader or manager. In fact, I can tell you from first hand experience that herding cats is a laughably easy exercise (and now you're probably wondering why so many community managers suck - well, I don't know what to tell you, maybe they should play more MMOGs [HAHA]). Seriously though, studies on this sort of thing need to go the way of the dinosaur. Aside from that, his full report sounds like it's going to be some first-hand - This was my Problem, This is how I Solved it - type article. Meh. Journalists suck.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Edenfall on December 29, 2008, 04:56:45 AM
First of all, studies like that really piss my shit off simply because, well, they're bullshit. Yea, they can teach leadership and project management. But going from zero to one doesn't make you a good leader or manager. In fact, I can tell you from first hand experience that herding cats is a laughably easy exercise (and now you're probably wondering why so many community managers suck - well, I don't know what to tell you, maybe they should play more MMOGs [HAHA]). Seriously though, studies on this sort of thing need to go the way of the dinosaur. Aside from that, his full report sounds like it's going to be some first-hand - This was my Problem, This is how I Solved it - type article. Meh. Journalists suck.

Saying that whether people gain actual skills by playing games or not, is inconclusive. A thorough study would however be able to conclude that ...sometimes, yes, but not necessarily. Then again, there is no need to study that thorough to make such a conclusion.

Whether or not you have gained some skill in project management will always depend how far it was taken, and I'd say it's possible to become an experienced project manager through the MMO path, but an experience somewhere will only take one so far.

Living at home doesn't make you a traveler.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 29, 2008, 07:13:42 AM
As I said earlier, playing MMOs makes you better at playing MMOs first and foremost. Now, you might learn some people management skills in the process, particularly if you get into raiding and / or guild drama, but the 'reality' of MMOs is a lot different to the reality of planning people face-to-face. You can take away some skills, but you have to be receptive to them and build on them, especially as you move further and further away from the original activity.

As an example, my boss apparently learned his time management skills working in the kitchen of a pancake house, while I learned a lot of useful bits and pieces working in stationery supplies and stocking bars. However, it's straight out idiocy to think that everyone who ever flipped pancakes or cleaned beer lines learned vital life skills they could take with them anywhere.

I will be proved wrong when all of the WoW raiding-trained people out there become project management experts, leading to MMOs delivered on time and on budget.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 29, 2008, 07:41:09 AM
Quote from: N Y TIMES
World of Warcraft Players Need Not Apply
By Jenna Wortham
CLARIFICATION 12:50 PM — This post has been clarified to include information about the original conversation involving World of Warcraft. It was not an interview, just a casual conversation.

Hah!
Quote from: N Y TIMES
Still, most of the readers in the F13 comment section shared a similar sentiment: When in doubt about the job compatibility of your gaming alter ego, the best policy might be to stay mum.

As one commenter put it rather bluntly, “It’s like telling them you’re into BDSM or something…once they know they’ll always look at you differently.”

The f13 comment section? You all have a non comment section!?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 29, 2008, 07:46:38 AM
As an example, my boss apparently learned his time management skills working in the kitchen of a pancake house, while I learned a lot of useful bits and pieces working in stationery supplies and stocking bars. However, it's straight out idiocy to think that everyone who ever flipped pancakes or cleaned beer lines learned vital life skills they could take with them anywhere.

How many people do you know that can actually train the accumulated life skills from specific events? It's all connected. Flipping a pancake is not a skill you can use everywhere. But working in the kitchen of a pancake house absolutely is, because it's general enough to require a lot of different skills (people mgt, project mgt, time mgt, resource mgt, etc).


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tarami on December 29, 2008, 08:13:32 AM
I think you're glossing over the fact that it's a really tiny minority of MMO players that aim to learn or even want to learn anything from playing. Most are there to *escape* challenge and responsibility. The better they do not learn anything particularly useful, the happier they'll be.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Azazel on December 29, 2008, 08:30:34 AM
The f13 comment section? You all have a non comment section!?

That would be the frontpage, which, while it's not the place where stuff happens here, pretty much serves as the public front face of the site, especially to someone who's never been here before.



Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: rattran on December 29, 2008, 12:35:54 PM
The f13 comment section? You all have a non comment section!?
That would be the frontpage, which, while it's not the place where stuff happens here, pretty much serves as the public front face of the site, especially to someone who's never been here before.

There's a frontpage?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: shiznitz on December 29, 2008, 12:49:02 PM
Every time someone goes there an angel gets its wings.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 29, 2008, 01:37:48 PM
I think you're glossing over the fact that it's a really tiny minority of MMO players that aim to learn or even want to learn anything from playing. Most are there to *escape* challenge and responsibility. The better they do not learn anything particularly useful, the happier they'll be.
How many people going to a pancake house to learn valuable life skills?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on December 29, 2008, 01:55:34 PM
How many people going to a pancake house to learn valuable life skills?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoKZhaigLQA


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: NiX on December 29, 2008, 02:29:53 PM
WoW? Project Management? If I were to go into recruiting, I wouldn't give a shit if you played WoW and think it makes you a good project manager. You still have no concept of basic project management principles and not to mention I'd rather have someone who is a certified Project Manager. Unless Blizzard starts charging customers to get an authentic Blizzard Certificate of Project Management Training.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: kildorn on December 29, 2008, 02:42:00 PM
WoW? Project Management? If I were to go into recruiting, I wouldn't give a shit if you played WoW and think it makes you a good project manager. You still have no concept of basic project management principles and not to mention I'd rather have someone who is a certified Project Manager. Unless Blizzard starts charging customers to get an authentic Blizzard Certificate of Project Management Training.


It's the logical next step of the achievement system.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 29, 2008, 03:14:29 PM
WoW? Project Management? If I were to go into recruiting, I wouldn't give a shit if you played WoW and think it makes you a good project manager. You still have no concept of basic project management principles and not to mention I'd rather have someone who is a certified Project Manager. Unless Blizzard starts charging customers to get an authentic Blizzard Certificate of Project Management Training.


It's the logical next step of the achievement system.

Only available through RMT!


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tarami on December 29, 2008, 04:54:09 PM
I think you're glossing over the fact that it's a really tiny minority of MMO players that aim to learn or even want to learn anything from playing. Most are there to *escape* challenge and responsibility. The better they do not learn anything particularly useful, the happier they'll be.
How many people going to a pancake house to learn valuable life skills?
Nobody, but learning new skills is in your interest at a job (unless flipping burgers is just that delicious to you!), because it'll let you get a better job, which will offer new opportunities to learn and advance further. You don't have to learn anything in an MMO, because nothing in it really matters. Tired of drama? Let the guild collapse. It's not a big deal. You're possibly even doing a bunch of people a personal favour.

My point is, even if you're really really trying to learn something, you never really really have to learn anything in an MMO. People tend learn both better and faster when their floppy, physical ass is on the line. The kind of ass you have to bring into work everyday, for example. So, in my opinion, regardless of whether you *can* learn something, it's worth nothing because you haven't really learned to take the responsibility that comes with using that skill.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on December 29, 2008, 05:25:03 PM
Ok. I somewhat agree. The part I don't with you on though is the first "let the guild splinter" part. This shit be realz for lots of people. You can't spend 5 hours a day on it and have it not affect you in some way deep. I'm not talking "sign my guild charter for 20gp" nametag customizers though. More like the guilds that have traveled entire games together for six to ten years. These types of groups are why raids work (and what makes pickup raids something to be faired).

So while I agree JUST relying on MMOs as your school of hard knocks is stupid, it can help if you do take some of it serious when you're surrounded by people who may.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Furiously on December 30, 2008, 12:42:44 PM
Thanks Tale, and grats to the one german journalist who tried.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Draegan on December 30, 2008, 02:20:08 PM
I stopped reading this thread when I saw a similar one over on FOH.  Holy fuck I missed a lot of teh funny.

Oh and: Total time logged in: 16 days, 18 hours and 23 minutes.

Damn.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: UnSub on December 31, 2008, 11:41:33 PM
IBM sez: "We'll hire you lifeless WoW gaming freaks" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/12/gaming_is_good_for_you.html)

... of course, the article doesn't say that explicitly, but I thought I'd keep with the theme of not really reading the article before posting it.

Of course, why would you want to work for IBM when their global executive in charge of games and interactive entertainment holds this view of employing someone:

Quote
"And I said well why not hire the janitor and fire him when you are done.

 :awesome_for_real: Quoting out of context!  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Tale on January 01, 2009, 05:19:23 AM
IBM sez: "We'll hire you lifeless WoW gaming freaks" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/12/gaming_is_good_for_you.html)

... of course, the article doesn't say that explicitly, but I thought I'd keep with the theme of not really reading the article before posting it.

Thanks to the BBC for demonstrating journalism 101. They rang IBM, got some grabs and made an actual story out of it. Hopefully just on instinct, not because I bemoaned the lack of such a story above. Then again, they did take the opportunity to attribute the original lead to The New York Times' crappy blog and call it by the newspaper's name, as if to say "see, your blogs ARE part of your newspaper brand".


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: heidaro on January 02, 2009, 07:52:30 AM
I do agree that some MMO players are a bit too hooked on the game and not many other things get their attention whereas most aren't. I was like this myself once. After this phase however, I feel the skills that I earned are worth it and that I am a better individual after it.

On the other hand, I think that football fans are worse, people that never think about anyting else than football. They're like what I described above but more or less do not get any valuable skills. That's my opinion anyway.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on January 02, 2009, 09:36:48 AM
They do have a much easier time finding random conversation at work and family events though :-)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on January 02, 2009, 12:12:14 PM
IBM had this to say about their upcoming MMO and how they chose their lead designer:

Quote
"And I said well why not hire the janitor and fire him when you are done.

BBC1 hire me now, I can journalize.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: DraconianOne on January 02, 2009, 01:54:01 PM
When asked if they'd consider banning employees from playing WoW at work, Mr Laux said
Quote
If I do that then employee morale will go down and productivity will go down and it may cost more in the long run


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Slyfeind on January 02, 2009, 04:00:44 PM
The NYT editor in chief, when asked whether he enjoys sex with tarantulas, has been quoted to say:

Quote
...yes...


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on January 04, 2009, 01:32:07 PM
Tumeroks (http://www.tumeroks.com/employers-not-hiring-wow-mmo-or-fps-gamers/) - People are STILL fucking it up after the edit of the first post. Unfreakingreal.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 04, 2009, 01:59:37 PM
Tumeroks (http://www.tumeroks.com/employers-not-hiring-wow-mmo-or-fps-gamers/) - People are STILL fucking it up after the edit of the first post. Unfreakingreal.

He did quote the actual thread instead of just linking to it.

And then made up a bunch of shit.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Righ on January 04, 2009, 04:45:45 PM
They do have a much easier time finding random conversation at work and family events though :-)

That's networking. Their valuable connections will make them boardroom material.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Venkman on January 04, 2009, 05:45:24 PM
Right. Unless you're in the video game business, you'll have an easier time striking up conversation about mainstream sports than about even mainstream video games, much less WoW. And heck, even if you're in the industry, you don't want to come across all frothing lunatic 10+hr/day fanboi or you'll be considered merely a hobbiest with a title  :grin:


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Fabricated on January 04, 2009, 05:59:42 PM
Tumeroks (http://www.tumeroks.com/employers-not-hiring-wow-mmo-or-fps-gamers/) - People are STILL fucking it up after the edit of the first post. Unfreakingreal.
That article was on digg's second page when I looked a bit ago. It was probably on page 1 not too long before that.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: IainC on January 19, 2009, 07:41:07 AM
And the fail train keeps a-rolling.

This time courtesy of TTH (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/61495) who are referencing an AsiaOne (http://business.asiaone.com/Business/Office/Rest%2BAnd%2BRelax/Story/A1Story20090113-114397.html) story that was itself first published in the Straits Times (subscription required). None of these latest iterations referenced F13 in any way (Tale is referred to as 'a blogger' and there is no link to any source).


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Soln on January 19, 2009, 12:47:08 PM
we should have a new thread on just games journalism


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Dallasjmoore on December 25, 2009, 07:41:50 PM
I own a company and I play wow quite often myself. I strongly encourage my employees to play WOW for at least a few hours a week. When my employees and I play WOW in groups it teaches them teamwork and it also gets them comfortable working with each other.  It can help them learn leadership skills as well as some good social skills. Sometimes I will joke by calling certain tasks at work "quests." Just by observing them you can see who will help others, who will take charge, etc.  Its a good method to better understand their personalities. 

Now don't get me wrong,  if it effects ones work performance and becomes a distraction, then there is an issue.  But that is the case with anything...addictions, depression, irresponsibility, etc.  Personally I don't care what any of my employees do on their own time as long as the work gets done efficiently when they are here.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Cheddar on December 25, 2009, 08:05:09 PM
I own a company and I play wow quite often myself. I strongly encourage my employees to play WOW for at least a few hours a week. When my employees and I play WOW in groups it teaches them teamwork and it also gets them comfortable working with each other.  It can help them learn leadership skills as well as some good social skills. Sometimes I will joke by calling certain tasks at work "quests." Just by observing them you can see who will help others, who will take charge, etc.  Its a good method to better understand their personalities. 

Now don't get me wrong,  if it effects ones work performance and becomes a distraction, then there is an issue.  But that is the case with anything...addictions, depression, irresponsibility, etc.  Personally I don't care what any of my employees do on their own time as long as the work gets done efficiently when they are here.


Wow.  Nice hello thread, welcome to NECROMANCY.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 25, 2009, 08:45:44 PM
Only a year late. Jesus.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: NiX on December 25, 2009, 09:36:46 PM
I sometimes wonder how people even come across such old threads.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: schild on December 25, 2009, 10:31:26 PM
External links Nix.

Mystery solved.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 26, 2009, 06:52:56 PM
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3046/slowpokepsyduck.png)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: palmer_eldritch on December 26, 2009, 07:55:45 PM
I own a company and I play wow quite often myself. I strongly encourage my employees to play WOW for at least a few hours a week. When my employees and I play WOW in groups it teaches them teamwork and it also gets them comfortable working with each other.  It can help them learn leadership skills as well as some good social skills. Sometimes I will joke by calling certain tasks at work "quests." Just by observing them you can see who will help others, who will take charge, etc.  Its a good method to better understand their personalities. 

Now don't get me wrong,  if it effects ones work performance and becomes a distraction, then there is an issue.  But that is the case with anything...addictions, depression, irresponsibility, etc.  Personally I don't care what any of my employees do on their own time as long as the work gets done efficiently when they are here.


Would you sack someone who was suffering from depression?


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: waffel on December 26, 2009, 08:09:52 PM
I own a company and I play wow quite often myself. I strongly encourage my employees to play WOW for at least a few hours a week. When my employees and I play WOW in groups it teaches them teamwork and it also gets them comfortable working with each other.  It can help them learn leadership skills as well as some good social skills. Sometimes I will joke by calling certain tasks at work "quests." Just by observing them you can see who will help others, who will take charge, etc.  Its a good method to better understand their personalities. 

Now don't get me wrong,  if it effects ones work performance and becomes a distraction, then there is an issue.  But that is the case with anything...addictions, depression, irresponsibility, etc.  Personally I don't care what any of my employees do on their own time as long as the work gets done efficiently when they are here.


(http://mmoredrama.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/super-cool-story-bro.png?w=300&h=281)


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: NiX on December 27, 2009, 10:56:15 AM
Would you sack someone who was suffering from depression?

Is that illegal in the states? I'm not up on your labour laws.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: Merusk on December 27, 2009, 11:59:22 AM
Depends on the state, IIRC. We all have our own different labor & hiring/ firing laws.


Title: Re: Recruiter told not to hire WoW players
Post by: WayAbvPar on December 30, 2009, 03:44:20 PM
I was reading this thread and wondering how I went almost 3 weeks without hearing about it. And then I realized I had gone a YEAR and three weeks without hearing about it. I blame the fact that I had a baby less than 2 months old monopolizing my time and energy this time last year.