f13.net

Haha, suckas. (http://dragonage.bioware.com/)

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/39720/miscellany/ot/simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg)

lol, the teaser was a teaser.

/marketing implosion

So... is this going to essentially be NWN 3 without the D&D license (as opposed to the BG 3 without the D&D license that I had assumed it would be before)?

Hm, ditching the d&d license is a good decision imo. I'm frankly sick and tired of the epic levels, epic loots, epic hp, epic save or death crap that MOTB gave me. It felt bloated.

You know. Just this thought makes me angry inside, but is it POSSIBLE that Dragon Age: Origins is a single-player lead in into the Bioware Austin MMOG?

I don't know what's worse, Star Wars again or another fantasy diku. /dying inside

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ I hit refresh 5,000 times for that?  :heartbreak:

I'm all for ditching the D&D license at this point, in much the same way that I liked them ditching the Star Wars license and creating their own sci-fi universe in Mass Effect.  I'm sure they felt their decision to not go with D&D this time around was validated when 4th Ed. got announced.  They've already had to figure out how to translate two previous editions of the rules at this point.

The thing I wouldn't be as thrilled with, is if they are in fact putting a lot of resources into a NWN-like toolset since I don't really think it plays to their strengths.

They've said a few times DA will be more of a traditional RPG, made for the hardcore BG-type RPG fans. If there is a toolkit, I wouldn't expect it to be as extensive as NWN's.

EDIT: I guess they do have a whole special newsletter just for world builders, though, so I could be smoking the crack and it will be the Biggest Toolkit Ever.

If they just TRY. To drop their own cliche of:
1. hero rising from the ashes of his burned hometown(tm)
2. Unknown Evil Rises every X year, We're so Fucked (tm)
3. Hey, let's ask that stranger who came into town for help! (tm)
4. "Give me your lunch money or die!" Type of Evil (tm)

Then maybe we'll have something interesting again. KOTOR was not bad. Jade Empire was unique but quite bland.

(http://i37.tinypic.com/n2280y.jpg)

Bingo.

Wow, thats like all the worst fears and jokes that everybody was making about Blizzard in the speculation thread. 

Except it actually happened.

(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/bush-fazendo-pose-burro-marcio-marciocamargoblogspotcom.jpg)

 :popcorn:

So what's Dragon Age and why do I give a fuck? (or not give a fuck?)

Though... I never really liked Baldur's Gate, only the Dark Alliance ones, but I was way too young back then.

Whether Bioware likes it or not, everything with Dungeons and Dragons is based - in part - on Dungeons and Dragons. >_>

It is. I really don't know much about Dragon Age and don't know how much is released on it, but is it going to be realtime combat ?

Awesome! So Bioware is releasing another game next year. How very interesting. BG didn't do anything for me, either.



Interestingly, and perhaps coincidently. Many other companies will be releasing games next year as well. Wake me when I should care.

Heathens.

Wow, what a horribly generic title.  What the hell did they reject before coming up with a name like Dragon Age?  I can't help but think this game was almost called Sword Guy Adventures.

There is a certain dao to the acronym. But lurking beneath that, shades of Ultima Online: Origins.

I liked it better when they were making Ultima Worlds Online Origins World Origins or whatever the fuck it was called, and Lum or someone abbreviated it to UO: WOOT.  Thems was good times.

Yeah, I have nothing to say to people who didn't like BG, and less to people who liked those damned action console games that bastardized things more than the PC RPG.

Get out of our RPG thread heathens!

I find myself saying it like Captain Kirk for dramatic emphasis.

Seems to help with my enthusiasm for the title somewhat.

Preach it!

My big hope for this game, given that it has the luxury of not having to run on a console, is more than 3 people in my party at a time.

Will you kill yourself when they announce it as a 360 exclusive Friday?

That would mean Dave Gaider has been lying to me for the last 3 years, and I just don't think Dave would do that. He loves me and the rest of his BG2 fanboys too much.  :heart:

I hope one of them is Fidel from Jagged Alliance.

No, it doesn't have to make sense.

Also, I want the spells from Sacrifice. A deformation volcano that throws of secondary effects, a tornado that whips creatures into it's funnel, etc...

On a wave of mu-ti-la-tion

More 3P/1P games with magic need effects like Sacrifice's. I think I remember seeing some trailer or promo somewhere for some console game that's doing this in the near future, where deforming the terrain and the associated physics are the main weapons.

I like RPGs quite a lot, but there's one reason I couldn't stand to play Baldur's Gate: Minsc.

Butt kicking for goodness!

I don't think any character was a required party member for a long period of time.

Blasphemy!  He was THE reason to play Bauldur's Gate!

Go for the eyes, Boo!  Go for the eyes!

In an odd twist, my original BG playthrough got Minsc bugged when I rescued his companion, but the game didn't recognize it, so he turned on me and died.

I used him for the duration of the second game + expansion. Go Figure.

I'm sorry, you need to report to an execution line immediately. Minsc is hands down my favorite RPG character of all time and the only computer game character that regularly gets quoted around our gaming table during PnP games.

Yep. Every time I wander into a dungeon I declare it a 'den of STINKING evil'.

*cant help himself*

BUTTKICKING FOR JUSTICE!!!!

Our two favorites:

Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

Ahh... We are all heroes; you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!

I also like the one about "Evil is everywhere! Be careful! Don't step in it!" I can't remember the exact quote.

I also greatly enjoy

Evil meet sword! Sword meet evil!

no no no

Buttkicking for GOODNESS!!!

Ahhh... Memories.

Go for the eyes Boo!

I played through BG1 with an evil party, killing off the good characters as I met them.  I went so far as to use the Cloak of Algernon to charm every single person in the Friendly Arm Inn so I could gank Khalid and Jaheira without getting in trouble.  Minsc I provoked into attacking me and blew into giblets before he could finish yelling "Go for the eyes!"

Xzar and Montaron, that's where it was at.

the memorable things about Baldur's Gate 1 is that there's plenty of recruitables that it's never too harsh to lose some of them in early game. Which makes the game a decent challenge just like Temple of Elemental Evil minus the good TB Combat

Trailer is only a little over half a minute long with no gameplay footage (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/36033.html).

F13 presents TranscripFun!™ for the hearing impaired:

(FIRE/CONCERNED WHITE PEOPLE APPEAR)

CAPTAIN BEARD: The plan will work, your majesty--wait...is that a British accent? This is going to end with you being corrupted by evil isn't it?

GOLDILOCKE: Of course it will. (PAUSE) The Blight ends here, but only because I want to yell incredibly obvious commands at our half-retarded--

(LARGE ANGRY GREEN HUMANOIDS STRATEGICALLY WALK STRAIGHT FROM THE TREELINE INTO:)

GOLDILOCKE: Archers!

LE EVIL: Rawwrr! Who needs tactics when you're large and angry! (SWINGS SWORD)

(EVERYONE CHARGES BLITHELY)

GOLDILOCKE: For Ferelden! (DARK, MATURE, GRITTY FIST PUMP)

(MORE CHARGING, SLASHING, DYING)

CAPTAIN BEARD: (BRUTALLY EFFECTIVE PENSIVE LOOK)

GOLDILOCKE: Hurk! Argh!

LE EVIL HORNED GUY (CHOKING GOLDILOCKE): (CHOKES GOLDILOCKE)

AUDIENCE: Look at that spittle! This is definitely not the high fantasy D&D I'm used to!

The charging into each other is getting rather cliche in these videos. Hasn't anyone heard of a shield wall?

I hate to say I'm disappointed by something that Bioware put out but I'm definitely disappointed with that trailer. Cliches and poor battle tactics abound along with animations didn't quite look right to me.

Given that it was a minute long, was 50% company logos and had no gameplay footage it wasn't that bad. At least it established a tone and visual style that differentiates it from most other entries. That said it certainly doesn't excite.

Maybe it's because I'm a perfectionist but I don't understand the media that some companies put out. The Champions gameplay footage is another example.

It's not that bad if the trailer came out like...2-3 years ago after it was announced but FOUR YEARS an all we get is cinematics? Wow, my hype eater starved to death already.

Finally, some in-game shots.

http://au.media.pc.ign.com/media/682/682217/imgs_1.html (http://au.media.pc.ign.com/media/682/682217/imgs_1.html)

Now, look at the outdoor combat scene (first shot) and the indoor one (last shot, 2008 of course): total camera freedom or the first picture is just a pretty set-up?

(http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/888/888796/dragon-age-origins-20080714005226759_640w.jpg)

This is the ONLY shot that means anything. Now who is writing the main storyline? And who picked 1200x675 as the image sized? Comeon, 1280x720 min plz. Thanks.

Yeah, my 24" Samsung is crying .

This is why I never play PnP RPGs, even though I collect them: The utter lack of taste of the RPG player crowd.

Morte >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anna>Minsc.

sooooooo true dat...Chief.  :awesome_for_real:

God the screenshots are underwhelming.

Underwhelming? Can you say "How is this screenshot any different from a shader heavy, bump-mapped, light-sourced NWN?"

None of the hype gets me in the least bit excited about Dragon Age. That trailer was incredibly dark, like 1970's film dark, and wholly uninspiring.

Montaron >>>>>>>>>>>>> (x infinity) all

Dave Gaider.

No idea about the screenshot size. The last few shots (the ones with cartoony characters and overviews of a huge army) are from a 2004(?) demo video, made in the Aurora Engine.

No kidding.  Minsc was unbearably cheesy.  I get that he was SUPPOSED to be funny.  I like humor in games but c'mon, a dumb and dumber routine in a "serious" rpg is pretty lazy.

If you're too cool for Minsc, you've turned the corner from cool to douchebag. But you already knew that.

My favorite BG2 campaign had me as an undead hunting Paladin and I went straight into the sewer to rescue the other Paladin. Four-handed swordness chop chop. A bit of minmax, I took the undead hunter after too much ability loss from undead or something. But with the Paladin class quest lines it was pretty awesome.

I like Bioware (a lot), but the only two rpgs I really reflect on from that vein are BG2 and Planescape. Just sayin'.

Or you stopped thinking about whether you're "too cool" some point before high school.

If you take D&D seriously, you're not doing it right.  I remember suggested incantations for a fire spell included "Ron son ol!" and after that I really couldn't look at D&D as anything other than a lighthearted take on fantasy.

Two new screenshot from Worthplaying. The news blurb is the same piece of PR we saw elsewhere:

http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=53832 (http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=53832)

The new ones are the second on the left and the first on the right...The others are old pictures from a..umm, 2005 or 2006 press release.

New website and forums, hot from the oven:

http://dragonage.bioware.com/ (http://dragonage.bioware.com/)

Hadn't watched the trailer before. Who at Bioware decided it was good?

Glancing at gametrailers right now, there's close to 30 trailers up right now from E3.  So far the Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 trailer is the only one I've watched that's more poorly done than Dragon Age.

Am I the only one that honesty doesn't give a shit about the trailer being shit? All trailers are shit.

Actually, I lie. The last time I saw a trailer that bad was HG:L, and we all know how that ended up...

I'd put Morte in a dead heat with Minsc and Anna slightly behind them.

Actually Jeff Green (of GFW) made in interesting point by suggesting that they aren't showing off a lot of gameplay because it's hard to show off Baldur's Gate style gameplay and make it look impressive.  That doesn't really excuse how shitty the non-gameplay trailer is, but I'd have to agree that these kinds of games really are boring to just watch, especially in short clips, and when you consider that one of the biggest selling points of Bioware games is the dialogue.  Mass Effect is essentially the only game Bioware has ever really been able to show off successfully, because it's not built around the same graphics and gameplay as Baldur's Gate/KotoR/NWN.

Dude get over yourself.  Stupid caveman routines are only funny if Geico is involved.  Besides, you're a kook.

Amen.  Minsc easily rests on my top ten list of annoying game characters.  None of his dialogue is funny; it's more like a sad attempt by a gaming nerd to emulate Monty Python and the Holy Grail.  It's sad when your pale, spotty friend does it, and it's really sad when it occurs in a video game.

At least in real life you can punch it out of em, eh Big Gulp?

Huh?  Where did that come from?  I'm a pussy cat.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/spaeschke/shoot_kitten.jpg)

That kitten's preparing for evil. I own reside with cats. I know that look.

Now this is very nice: 3 min. Gameplay video released (size of 323MB, already seen on IGN and other sources) :

Supposedly, if you subscribed to the DA:O newsletter and/or Bioware community site, in your mail you will get a link to a high-res version later today...or something.

http://press.bioware.com/Dragon_Age_E3_Assets/DragonAge_Video/ (http://press.bioware.com/Dragon_Age_E3_Assets/DragonAge_Video/)

Very promising.

 :drill:

I thought this was an MMO?  How are you pausing an MMO?

Am I completely confused?

You are.

It's a single player RPG. BG, KoToR etc.

Yes, yes you are. Dragon Age is a single player RPG.

Oh ok, I guess I knew there was a Bioware MMO in the works and I just thought this was it.

Now that I know it's an RPG I'm actually much more interested in it.   :grin:

Allegedly. It was also a pc exclusive at one point  :oh_i_see:

 :tinfoil:

It looks like an MMO except for the pausing. The gameplay videos are nice. Still reminds me of NWN a bit, except for the positive that you control a party.

Allow the gameplay video to wash your cares away in a soothing wave of awesome, Sky.

Another gameplay video, similar to the "official" one, ran during a presentation at G4tv:

http://www.g4tv.com/e32008/videos/27090/Face_Time_Dragon_Age.html (http://www.g4tv.com/e32008/videos/27090/Face_Time_Dragon_Age.html)

At 2'57" and 3'03 we get a glimpse at what could be a skill UI and Inventory UI. Hmm, the latter seems "list based" as seen in Kotor and ME  :oh_i_see:. You can also notice the equipment slots.

Finally, the mighty return of the green square to select multiple party members. Little detail, but really welcomed, considering that in NWN 2 we got it only in later patches.

List-based is a plus as far as I'm concerned. Inventory manipulation was not the strongest thing in BG2 and its friends.

IMO, the most important thing is that the size of those kind of windows is small or average, and not feel like a console port, so we don't have to shuffle and scroll down endlessy to find what we need (see Oblivion without any mod installed but also Kotor, nevermind the sorting options)

The gameplay videos kinda made me wee nipples hard. That ogre was sweet, and the spell effects were awesome.

please please please remember the category tab bioware.

Looks pretty bad to me, but I know this kind of game isn't made for me. Totally generic western art style, generic sound effects, lame English accent smack talk - I'm sure LOTR nerds will eat this up.

Needs more weeaboo androgyny, eh?

EDIT:  I'm unenthused as well, but mostly because I've had it up to fucking here with "pause, give orders, unpause, view fight" combat systems.  It didn't look like anyone was controlling any of those characters directly, and I'm done putting up with that.

Yeah, I still prefer the old style gold box combat systems.  Takes longer, sure, but the combat is more under your control.

Personally, I much prefer to control my alter-ego directly in real-time while my party members do their own thing in a way that's intelligent based on their gear and skills, just because it feels more exciting and cinematic to me.  But yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

WUA sweeps
Kobold is killed
Kobold is killed
Kobold is killed

A lot of my concern come from playing Mass Effect. While technically you could pause and give orders, it just never gelled, and the squaddies were constantly doing stupid shit. KotOR was a bit better, but imo nothing has been as tactical feeling as BG2 was. Freedom Force was more the lines of control than anything Bioware did later.

The gameplay videos look ok, it will probably be a cool game. Being able to zoom the camera out to a BG-like viewpoint is a good start. I've just thinking recently that the move to 3d hasn't been paying good dividends to the rpg genre.

DRM announced: disc check only.

http://daforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=677056&forum=135

So don't pirate it, assholes.

But they will and we will get more Starforce.

That message is almost word-for-word identical to the one announcing the lack of SecuROM on The Sims 3. I smell the fetid hand of corporate PR.

As someone who still hasn't played Mass Effect because of copyright protection... I am happy  :awesome_for_real:

Also: Green Ronin is making a pen & paper version. (http://greenronin.com/2009/05/bioware_and_green_ronin_to_pub.php)

This was as much a surprise to us (the ME2 writing team) as anyone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SuJ5T9sfAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5hwznpjtUE

terrible motion capture, failed lipsync, worrying appearances of shitty fantasy

add to that, the first syndrome of EA acquisition. disastrous marketing campaign. like utterly disastrous

having trouble holding out hope for this fucker.

How long has this game been in development anyway? Are they even using a new engine?  For more in depth preview I'd go to gamebanshee anyway. Gives me a nice idea on how the character point system works.

I can't stand this ridiculous "new shit" campaign any longer; and silly over the top violence; and characters talking to each other in a tavern with litres of blood on their face for whatever reason; and horrible marketing music. And "epic" used thousand times. Did I mention the music and the blood and teh sex as the very definition of "mature, dark and gritty"?

Geeze, release the damn game (which I'm very looking forward to, but did I mention the music the blood, teh sex the new shit as lame vehicles of marketing?)

Ok. Signing off.

I wrote the first draft of the Human Noble Origin in September of 2004. It was prototyped in the NWN engine.

DA went through three engines that I know of; NWN for prototyping, a "next gen" engine that - to my knowledge - was never completed, and the current one, which may be an offshoot of the second one. I only worked on it for three months, so I can't say.

Just curious, but was there some specific reason to go this route rather than use UE3 for it instead? I mean, given UE was available for pretty long time and also used for ME...

I just want to bump this thread to say that I saw the little 30 second character creation video or whatever - http://social.bioware.com/wiki/dragonage/index.php/Creation_Creation - and they have the most adorable dwarf girls ever.

:heart:

That is all.

They're actually supposed put the character creator up for download tomorrow.

Neat! 9AM Pacific!

I will have a dwarf girl for every profession under the sun.

OH dang, looks fun. I like cute female dwarves. I hate it when people make their dwarves ugly. Really, it's ok if dwarves have cute girls! They don't have to have warts and beards and shit.

 :hello_thar:

A cute dwarf is just a fat halfing. A fatling.

Lineage 2 dwarf females don't count. Those are fucking anime midgets.

(http://www.thenonentity.com/non-wrathshoulder.jpg)

THIS is a dwarf female. (Don't mind the shoulder armor bug, that was in the game for 1-2 months during the Blackwing Lair era)

Looks like a fat halfing to me.

Was Norman Bates the art director?

Most halflings are fat as well. So the "dwarven females have beardsl" route is the only real way to know them apart.

Yup, it's up:

http://blog.bioware.com/2009/10/13/character-creator-and-the-bioware-social-network/

any multiplayer with this?

(http://thenonentity.com/non-dragonage.jpg)

love love love love
 :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

Bile.  I taste it.

No, this is a female dwarf.

(http://images.mmosite.com/news/2007/03/14/1151.jpg)

You can tell by her dainty hands.

Initial impressions from the character creator... (based mostly on the human/elf female)

* these hands claws were made for /facepalm. And no, there's no size slider.
* DA lands must be in state of perpetual famine. Or widespread drug abuse -- anything but the maxed out setting on the cheek slider gives deep insight into the underlying skull structure.
* Cheek Width in its current state is a :psyduck: ... unless kept close to minimum it creates cheeks significantly wider than the cheek bones. Srsly, the faces just don't work like that :ye_gods:
* same shitty eye colour options Mass Effect had. This is not the area where you let a programmer pick the colours, for some reason they tend to think having saturation maxed out is a good idea.
* voice selection... let's just say it's unlikely to be to everyone's tastes, and there's little connection between labels and actual voice work :why_so_serious:
* lip syns is odd. It seems prone to stretch the width of mouth a lot and very often, way more than people actually do it when they speak. It's jarring, unless your secret desire is to play a result of romantic union between Teri Hatcher and a frog.

given this is tech which also affects appearance of the NPCs, think there's few things here that's going to have negative impact on the game overall. Or at least make it unnecessarily harder for the devs to create something that make good impression...

If it's anything like Mass Effect you will find that the character's look in the designer is significantly different from the final look in the game anyway. I'd make a Mass Effect character that looked awesome then start the game and his face would look pinched or in the worst cases look like they have down's syndrome.

Just tried it. Jesus H Christ. And people bitch about the Sims 3 CAS?

- Despite the number of available sliders, there's pretty much just one combination with very slight variations that doesn't make your character look like it's freshly arrived from Alpha Centauri.
- Make-up shades, like blush, eye shadow (liberally applied using a spatula it seems) and lipstick cover the entire colour wheel (green blush, really?) rather than just the reds/browns/greys that make sense. In short, they are absolutely useless.
- Actually, there are very few redeeming qualities about the creator. I think it does pretty much everything worse than every other game I've played with similar levels of customization.

Unleashing this may be one of the worst PR moves ever. But the level of the PR campaign has already been covered in here.

Also, meet Aedan. His father is also his brother.
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/263/aedan.jpg)

/disappointment

Edit:
I take that back. Obviously it isn't one of the worst PR moves ever, merely a bad one. It doesn't exactly instill confidence for the game.

I can't figure out if it's a cynically brilliant move to pull in the mouth breathers, or if it's By Retards, For Retards.

I don't find it that bad, really. Yes, you can pull some weird or fugly combinations off, but at least it's better than Morrowind or Oblivion, where all you could do were weird mutants. And people were very fond of those. It's probably moddable, so people will come up with some alternate skins. Or not?

The character creator has an unskippable video with spoilers.

How unbelievably stupid.

Edit: These guys are obviously tailoring the whole thing for DLC. Who do we blame? EA? Bioware? Bioware Austin? Invert mine.

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/39720/games/dragon%20age/cc00.png)

This character creator is enough of a letdown that I'll be doing a wait-and-see for a few key folks' reactions before I buy it; previously this was on the short-list of stuff to preorder.

It really does just feel amateurish; there's clearly some kind of technical skill involved, but the art, code and design disciplines don't seem to have meshed at all. Questionable color choices, ugliness on most positions on most sliders, unskippable cutscenes, and two noninteractive bits that seem like they should be presenting choices, but aren't. (Why am I looking at what appears to be skill/spell selection screens when I can't select shit?)

Is it me or are there like 2/3 the options for most women's parts compared to the men?

Also, it lacks an afro option. My dude needs to sport a giant 'fro, a cowboy mustache and muttonchops while he slays dragons. No such luck, although they do have a decent cowboy mustache.

They show me a trailer with a black guy, but I can't create one in game?  Fail.

You can; may be limited to cornrows or a buzzcut when it comes to haircuts, though.

Oh and the video bits can be skipped with Esc on the second run by the looks of it.

Everything about this game has screamed "amateur" to me.  I don't like the weird out of synch speech in the cutscenes, the really overdone look of the plate armor, or the blood for blood's sake and bonin' for bonin's sake.  This game has just pushed every "stay away" button I have.

The farthest mine went was a deep red tone, closer to Native American.  Not near enough to my skin tone.

Which is odd, because Mass Effect was great in that regard. 

I'm torn on whether to get this for 360 or PC.  I never got around to playing Mass Effect, how were the controls for that on 360?

Quite good, actually.  I can't compare it to the PC version, though.

Yah, I don't remember the controls being a problem at all.  I'd imagine you'd have even less of a problem here since I don't think they're making you aim swords with a cone of fire  :awesome_for_real:

edit: inventory management was ass, however.

That, however, wasn't specific to the xbox version.

So, has anyone been able to create a male human who doesn't look like someone just kicked his puppy?

Hmm i chalked the red tint up to weird lighting setup in the character creator (the small portraits are much closer to neutral in comparison) but after taking another look you're right, there's definitely room here for darker tones than what's offered. Maybe the range is limited to reflect what's typical for the country/area the game takes place and the black guy from the trailer is a foreigner from lands to the south or smth..?

Any news on the conversion of this game to the PS3? Obviously situations like Ghost Busters has really raised concern regarding the quality of ports, the recent Bayonetta framerate issues have highlighted it as well. Has there yet been a demo of the game running off a PS3?

No, but there were rumors of the PS3 version being late to the party a while back.  It very well may have issues. 

I'm hoping the price drop pushes the PS3 into sales/ownership superiority over X360 next year.  Maybe we'll see PS3 ports getting a little extra love.

On Bioware's Social network there's an add for DA that says the PS3 verison will be available Nov 17th.

I have my fingers crossed that this is all just the result of a really bad decision when the marketing team was selected.  Although, it's starting to sound like someone from marketing jostled their way into a decision making position during development and then swirled his dick around in the punch.

Indeed, the word around has always been "Xbox and PC release early Nov, PS3 release later that month". It's not a question about if it's coming to the PS3, but the quality of its port (and if there might be issues like Ghost Busters and Bayonetta).

Or maybe they should leave that up to the player?

Player customizable customization? Crazy talk!

I just found it odd after KOTOR1&2/Neverwinter/Mass Effect.  I actually expected to play a white guy in this one (much like being asian in Jade Empire) but then they got my hopes up with the trailer.

Others have mentioned it on their ugly ugly forums, so there's hope they fix it.

Huh?  You could play a black guy in Mass Effect.  Hell, that was one of my characters.

I understand it's fantasy, and that normal rules don't apply, but it always seems jarring to me seeing black characters in a genre that is so heavily influenced on European/Teutonic myths.  Unless they're like the Sothrons (re, Moors) black characters just don't seem to fit into what's supposedly medieval Europe, but with fairies and dragons.

Yes, that's what he's saying. It is odd that after those first 4 that there's less choice in this one.

As far as the actual looks of the characters, I was able to make a whole bunch of perfectly normal looking people last night. You people either suck at it or are deliberately making ugly people so you can be more negative about it.  :oh_i_see: The only real bummers are the aforementioned race thing and the lack of height/weight sliders.

Ah, okay.  Whoosh.   :grin:

So far this sounds terrible.  Let's go back to pictures of dwarf women.

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/85916/dwuli.png)

I'm breaking up with you.

 :heartbreak:

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/85916/dwuli_confused.png)

Indigestion?

I think he shat his pants.

The DLC plan for this game is utter bollocks. Two years worth including things like item packs all the way up to giant mission packs? Oh please. Just make expansions or GTFO. Microtransactions have a time and place, boxed games are not that place and the current generation of consoles is not the right time.

Oh you can make normal looking characters alright. My complaint was more about, in order to achieve that some of the sliders need to be put in certain positions and straying from that even slightly warps the results all way to freakville. Which makes these particular sliders useless at best, with potential to harm the end effect (if say, there's characters out there done with randomly generated slider positions) I just don't know how that managed to leave the artist desks... though perhaps they were busy making the day 1 DLC. :why_so_serious:

I can make a normal person, they just all seem sorta emo. It's the eyebrows... I want to make someone who looks like they are enraged.

I might share your feeling if it weren't completely optional or if the game is not enjoyable without spending a lot of money. Yeah, feeling the same about the eyebrows, everyone looks a bit hopeless and sad. Pet peeve: sliders reset when you change beards  :oh_i_see: I messed around for a bit, but having to redo everything every time I tried a new facial hair setup is  :uhrr: I join the camp of not believing this passed the art department. The top face coloration slider (from jaundiced to black sunken eyes) is straight out of Oblivion.

I want to be a fanboi, and it certainly isn't the worst character creator I've seen, but it is a bit curious they released it in its current state.

This.

Actually I got so retarded for a moment that I took the time to do this, it's a composite image of the jaw settings (since those are the most significant deformation sliders) of all the presets for human females. I found it very telling.

(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4605/jawsdundundunn.gif)

Schild, you are not Challenging Everything and Being Bold.

Sidejack: in most of Mediterranean Europe, seeing dark-skinned people from Africa or the Middle East during the high medieval period wouldn't have been that unusual, at least in port cities or major administrative capitals. There were ambassadors from Ethiopia, for example, in Rome, Venice, Florence, Avignon, Paris, etc. during the high medieval era. In Northern Europe, a bit more unusual, but even then, in some of the cities, not unprecedented. It's partly just a question of how you construct high fantasy worlds--Howard's Conan universe, in some slightly uncomfortable ways, pretty much buys into south = non-white, north = Teutonic white, but ok, it works well enough.

Unfortunately, blacks in Howard's universe were usually mindless, naked servants of either 1) a hot chick pirate or 2) some godawful unspeakable presence that even Conan was scared of.

But umm.. they were there, I'll give you that.

edit: Wait, he did have the Nubian kingdom stuff.. But I think he just mapped it out. I don't remember an actual story with them. But whatever.

What mostly annoys me are situations like WoW, where the developers set the skin tone of 2% of the faceless NPC population to black for no real reason other than what feels like vague concern that someone will call them racist otherwise. You meet the odd occasional black questgiver, like the captain of the Skybreaker in Icecrown, and it's like... what the hell? Is this guy supposed to be some kind of reverse-albino? Because we know there isn't really more than one human culture in the world.

On the other hand there are plenty of black people in the Elder Scrolls games and nobody I know of ever gave it a second thought, since they're an actual race that comes from somewhere in that world. Fable never really bothered to explain where Thunder and Whisper were from, but ten seconds of listening to their accent was enough to tell you that Albion wasn't the whole world and that those two came from somewhere else.

Having some Ethiopians hanging around in Rome is great, just make sure your world includes an Ethiopia. Don't just go "Okay the entire human race is white. Whoops that sounds kinda racist, okay one in fifty is black for some reason!" and expect me not to lift an eyebrow.

The reason for not being able to make a guy look pissed off from the get go, I think, is they seem to change the facial expression based on mood, so if your guy is actually pissed off in dialogue or fighting or whatever, then the expression will change. What you're doing in the character generator is just setting the 'base' state for the face. At least that appears to be the case, anyway. Who knows how well it works in the actual game.

I don't want my wife raping, castle pillaging, village burning mage to be Base State: Emo  :sad_panda:

Classy.  :oh_i_see:

Game Informer already has a review up. I found it highly amusing that one of their pros under sound was: It doesn't have the crappy heavy metal from the trailer.

The installer crashes 100% of the time on my Vista-64 machine, right after selecting Express or Custom install (happens with both options).

*sigh*

Ah, good point, I didn't think of that.

I'll kick off the ugliest character contest with Aedan the Unfortunate.
(http://social.bioware.com/da_game_other/portraits/17000/16651/16651.png)
(http://social.bioware.com/da_game_other/avatars/17000/16651/16651.jpg)

More like Aedan, The Brother's Father.

(http://social.bioware.com/da_game_other/portraits/17000/16651/16651.png)
Goodbye mama, now you can have ice cream in heavan! I'll see you again tonight when I go to bed in my head movies. But this head movie makes my eyes rain!

If only he was albino, there'd be a perfect resemblance to Yellowman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nh5CapYICg).

It looks almost like a perfect replica as is of yellowman at :30 into that video  :awesome_for_real:

Yeah, but he is right.

Discuss your Anime perversion in the Den.

Weird, installed fine at home on Vista 64.

Fuck. Steam had the Deluxe Edition mispriced for $54.99 last night.  I was pondering purchasing it...but now they've raised it the real price, $65.  Sadness.

Even if I had, they probably would've raised the price on the pre-purchase.

Bah, I almost jumped on that, too.

I *did* jump on it. I wonder if I still get $10 off   :grin:

I don't want to know!

Burn in hell, Lum!

Based on the character creator I'm beginning to think DA was done by Bioware's 3rd stringers.  Still, I have a high interest in it.

After watching the Giant Bomb quicklook on it, I am somewhat interested.

Not even getting into the obviously long development time, it seems pretty clear that the Dragon Age team has had some issues.  Producer/Director Dan Tudge for instance apparently left the team back in April to head up one of Disney's game studios, not to mention the fact the only Bioware game he has a credit on (besides a special thanks credit on Mass Effect) was the Sonic DS game.

I created a female using about the same slider settings, I think.  I forgot to save it, but it was awful.

I've read articles talking about how DA is going to be "The last great Single Player game" because nowadays Multiplayer is expected and will be focused on to the detriment of the single player experience.  Talk about going out with a gasp and a whimper.

Isn't that what "they" have been saying since the late nineties? :oh_i_see:

All you need to do to find a great single player game is fire up any of the latest generation of MMOs, amirite?  :awesome_for_real:

Wait umm.. this is a single player game?

I honestly have not been keeping up. I just thought the contorted Yellowman pic was worth commenting on. Oh, and ladyboys.

I thought this was an MMO, but I was kind of curious why it was in the PC/Console gaming section all this time.

Nope its a single player game.  Sort of Neverwinter Nights meets Baldur's Gate, from what I can tell.

Last single player game my ass. There will always be enough people that don't want to play multiplayer. Either because most online gamers are unbearable to stand for extended lenghts of time, or because ypu don't have enough time to sink into a multiplayer game. I've yet to see the Fantasy MMO that doesn't have timesinks just to extend the supscription time.

Just about every good experience I've had with RPG's (and most genres for that matter) is single player. I like games with compelling stories that make me push through just so I can get the rest of the story around the corner. That's about all I'm looking for with games.

And the only reason I bring up story is that multiplayer has zero chance of being on the equal level of the above. Social interaction brings about a paradigm shift... Where the game ends up focusing on your "story" in a way - and how you contribute to the rest of the game world, for better or worse. And if all games were like that, then I have no reason to play. Because I don't give a shit contributing in any way whatsoever. Or relying on anyone for that matter. I'm sort of speaking in the abstract, with what I mean by "contributing", but this site goes over this shit enough already that I don't see a need to contribute to the definition any further.  :why_so_serious:

I think it originally was meant to have a pretty big multiplayer component. I remember reading an article saying they wanted this to be fully multiplayer capable, but they got cold feet and backed off when they saw what a big thing the MMO business had become. Either that or the in-house competition pulled them back to not compete with products like SW:TOR.

As I recall, the scope of the multiplayer on DA varied over time based on who was guiding the project, and what they were playing at the time.

Playing too much WoW is not good for the direction of other game projects.

Glad he quit.  :grin:

It'd be more believable with "on the PC" added. RPGs going to MMO is sorta FPS going to CoD. Not necessarily the death of single-player fun, just more along the lines of "good enough" rather than "the reason for the game to exist".

But single-player RPGs I can see staying for a long time to come on consoles. As others have mentioned, it's the best way to make a game react to a player's actions. And both the Sony wii-wand/sphere/whatever and N'tal practically beg for the sort of RPG Molyneux will be all over. Caginess about N'tal and Fable 3 aside :-)

Not an accurate comparison imo. MMO's have very little in relation to the single player experience. It always takes a level of social interaction at accomplishing much of anything with them. With RPG's, it's more about just hoping I'll be given a cool story and experience - and one I can turn on and solve at will.. MY will, that is. I don't have to LFG or build Guilds or play Auctions or worry about everyone else's "will". Nor do I even have to talk to get what I want out of an RPG. I just have to play. And in the rare cases where I can just "play" an MMO and try not to worry about others, it's a drastically poor experience than a single player RPG. They're not even worth playing if you negate the social aspect.

MMOs are about optional multiplayer for the masses. Yes, the core/vets know to maximize the AH, expect the group-required gates, accept the PvP for what it is. But your off-the-street WoWer wasn't joining for the chance to play with thousands of others. They joined because everyone else was, and then unlocked their dormant need to achieve. And when they hit the group-required cockblock, they either become core, or quit and go solo something else.

But yes, they are basically real crappy RPGs with imperceptible player impact except in the vague economic and guild politics realm. Except for the worldy games of course.

I buy the premise they're getting at because I constantly find myself in MMO guilds surrounded by folks in their early 20s and younger.  Conversations about games always revolve around "what's the multiplayer like" and for those that don't have it, "What, no multiplayer or co-op?  Not worth my time!" 

We're the old men now, and our tastes aren't what's going to dictate the market any more than they do what's produced for the Wii.   Considering we bitch about Facebook, texting and other social media regularly in other parts of the site I'm more inclined to believe our antisocial natures wishes it weren't so more than our rational selves think it isn't so.

Well, you meet people in player guilds in 100% multiplayer online games who are not interested in single player and/or offline experience. Going from this to conclusion this is all people in general are interested in nowadays... isn't that based on totally skewed sample?

We don't need a quantitative analysis here to see the obvious. If a game is a single player only game it is either a casual download title in an industry that just got decimated by the Amazon price gouging, a Flash title that'll spread like wildfire for a week and then be forgotten, or the one or two big-ass-budget RPGs that'll launch each year.

Games that existly mostly as lightly-themed game mechanics (FPS, RTS, MMO, Sports) are multiplayer-required and have been for awhile.

I don't think it has anything to do with age either. We're all still playing MMOs. And we'll solo, sure, as will anyone else. But we're there for the same opportunity at socializing as the rest.

It might be skewed, but I observe that a lot as well. I don't play mmo's much, or join guilds, but I still observe comments like he mentions. Not all of my acquaintances play MMO's, but the ones that do sound like the above. I see the cute little Nintendo kid down the street morph into a WoW catass. His Japanese consoles collect dust these days. It's sadder than it sounds really.  :why_so_serious: Other friends who don't play MMO's still get off on the social/competitive nature of FPS's and stuff. It's hard to convince them to check out something else, when once, they played more single player games than I do. Even people I don't know.. Occasionally I might read a review of a game, and hear gamers injecting comments about lack of multiplayer or such, as if that was a negative all the time. I don't know if it's "antisocial vs social" though. I don't consider myself antisocial - I just like the richer storytelling features of single player RPG's, and I don't like depending on anyone.. Or caring for other "social" benefits of MMO's - like popularity, etc..

All that said, I believe I can sort of rest assured that I'll always have a decent pool of RPG's to play - simply because there's a whole country who prefers them and makes them themselves. These are the kind of RPG's I like to play anyways. And if you don't like JRPG's, you're probably shit out of luck. American RPG's on the other hand could very well take a backseat and be replaced with MMO's. I see that already happening and where I see the money going. That still bothers me too though. I hate see good genres die. Some of my favorite types of games suffered the same fate. Space/air combat, TBS, and hell, even Adventure - all pretty much dead.

You know I wanted to dismiss this, but then I looked over my RPG collection. And most of the recent story-driven westerm ones were either European or from Bioware.

JRPGs suck. One of the greatest casualties of the MMO explosion to date is the death-spiral of the sophisticated, party-based, western SRPG. I have managed to subsume my supreme enjoyment of the infinity engine days into 5-man groups, endgame raiding, etc., but the stubborn and recalcitrant can only weep at the devolution of narrative structure, plotting, party mechanics, tactical gameplay, and just about everything else, in the typical industry-standard mmo soloing experience.

As such, although I have nothing but bitter hatred for EA's assfuck marketing campaign I am compelled to hope for the best for Dragon Age; maybe a critical success will shake up the status quo and stop the empty-minded proliferations of 'wow-clone-with-a-twist' we've had forcibly to endure for the past several years.

JRPG's are such a broad category that I think there's a good "RPG fix" there for everyone. I can't see how they would suck that badly for someone. I wouldn't go out of my way to change anyone's mind about it either, but at the same time, I think they are shooting themselves in the foot for it. I prefer the typical JRPG's myself i.e. the ones you probably hate. But the one I'm playing now is a better "Western" RPG than anything that's come around in awhile, and it's not even western. If you have a problem with, like, anime or kawaii stuff, there's none of that here. It's a bleak, challenging game.. with plenty of old, balding guys.  :grin:

And almost certainly an incomprehensible plot filled with unnecessary angst from a taciturn, but deep down good-hearted protagonist, yeah?   :oh_i_see:

I bet you also have random battles that just pop up while you're travelling that then go into turn based "I shoot the foozle", next, "I heal" gameplay, right?  Yeah, JRPG's suck.

I'm not gonna defend the gameplay of JRPGs here, but this is exactly what western RPGs are except they require more clicking and more navigation through frightening GUIs.

Not really.

The Witcher: After this Combo, I need to Heal. Ok, healing. Ok, back to combos.
Infinity Engine: Gotta pause to fire off the mage's ability at the right time.
Aurora (or whatever the NWN Engine was called): Same thing as above.

All of which had inconsequential mobs all over the place, except MAYBE Planescape: Torment. But even then it had places like the Modrom Cube filled with random battles.

If we're talking about Action RPGs, we're really talking about Action games with stats. At which point I would like to point out that it is A DIFFERENT GENRE.

I'm talking about Demon's Souls... It doesn't really get into storytelling much. I don't know if my character is a good hearted protagonist or not. Probably not.

Anyways, it's got more of a Western atmosphere than anything I've seen from JP before. Gameplay otoh is neither "western" RPG or typically JRPG. Maybe even not even Action RPG, since it's a helluva lot more punishing. More like Ninja Gaiden with stats.

I'm not talking about action RPGs.  Western RPG's (Baldur's Gate/NWN probably being the best example to use) don't play the same as JRPG's.  To start with, Western RPG's generally don't have a lot of random combat (it typically occurs if you're trying to rest).  Even the inconsequential mobs are typically set in certain places. 

There's also usually a heavier strategical focus in Western RPG's in that combat actually takes into account where your party members are, where your enemies are, area of effect abilities (and in some games friendly fire due to aoe abilities), line of sight, etc...  You can't just tell your healer to cast cure on party member x and then wait for the spell to go off.  They actually need to run over to where the injured party member is, possibly setting themselves up for several attacks of opportunity along the way.  I could go on and on, but yeah, not the same at all.

So, like I said, more clicking.

Of course, in action, they're different. But not liking JRPGs because they're turn-based and have random battles is a terrible premise for an argument for Western RPGs.

That said, Demon's Souls is not a JRPG. Period. (This was obviously not directed at Velorath.)

I'm not making a qualitative statement on one kind of RPG being better than the other.  Just saying that they don't play the same.  Doesn't matter much anyway as there are very few Western RPG's these days that aren't some sort of action hybrid like Fallout 3 or Mass Effect.

Which is awesome since now we can say none of the western companies make Action RPGs as well as From Software. :awesome_for_real:

This is a broad and difficult generalization, but I like Western RPGs for their long tradition of empowering the player, I suppose. It isn't just the possibility of having one or two different endings; it is an inherent part of the world design, class mechanics, conversation systems, and party dynamics that typically come out of the Western World. Every element is made to provide a set of 'choices' that eventually (if well designed) culminate in a unique and personal experience for the player. JRPGs, though I've been out of that loop for a very long time, seem to give a lot of superficial choices (typically relating to the tactical combat model) that contribute measurably less to the overall gestalt. When I play Final Fantasy, for instance, I feel like I'm playing an adventure game with a combat model tacked on; I feel like a passive observer in a strange, uniquely Japanese, aesthetic experience--not an actor in a provisional world.

These are, I think, *ideals* that have seen a lot of variance, though. Baldur's Gate II had relatively few 'story' branches, but its PC and NPC selection were crucial determinants for the overall experience (this is my preferred model). I hated The Witcher for the WoWification I think it uses to string its gameplay out. I know that Persona does a bit of branching but I can't be bothered to grapple with its bizarre cultural sensibilities.

Etcetera. That's the best I can do for now.

The quintessential difference between JRPGs and western RPGs, to me, is the way JRPGs set you up for the monumental story and how heavily the story is tailored to push you towards something epic, while western RPGs very often start with some generic party of nobodies slowly working their way towards something epic. To my defense, I'm a guy that grew up with Eye of the Beholder, the Krynn series, Lands of Lore and that stuff. Ultima was "epic storytelling" as far as western RPGs go, and even that had a lot more action feeling to it than regular RPGs.

Maybe I'm old, but to I lump "D&D" games from SSI and later from Bioware into the "western RPG" land, and even though there have been a few that deviated from this formula (Ultima for a more epic take, Ultima: Underworld as the grand-daddy of action RPGs), most of them were "1d6 longsword hits AC0 or not".

Also, on a rather superficial note, there's also lots of art direction and style stuff that sets JRPGs apart from western RPGs. From the anime-faces and spiky hair cuts or cutesy chibi and chocobo stuff to the exaggerated weapons and spell effects. Western RPGs tend to 1.) take place in some sort of medieval/Middle-Earth-esque setting (Dragonlance, Faerun, Britannia etc.) and 2.) be a lot more "historicaly accurate" and less over-the-top and flashy.

And that brings me back on topic to Bioware and DA and why I have high hopes for this: because Bioware were the guys that brought storytelling and plots back into the focus of western RPGs, at a time where I was still thinking the western RPG genre had peaked with Ultima 7 and was in a steady decline. No, I didn't like the original Fallout and Crusader that much, before you ask. I also think Deus Ex was a good game but already drifting lots in the direction of an action game.

The only Bioware game I didn't really enjoy so war was NWN1, I thought that to be too formulaic and uninspired, more of a demo of the toolset than a real game. But everything else has had very ambitious content scope and has been pretty good, from BG1 and 2 to KOTOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

This is the difference between Japanese culture and its heritage of ancient stories and myths vs Western/ American culture with it's culture.  We have a history that's very much about how a man can change his fortunes and counter fait with enough focus.  I do not believe this is the case of the Japanese heritage.  Men have their fate and place in life, and they don't know what it is.  It's all about how they face their lot in life.


The choices offered for not just the hero but the entire party and the superficial choices within the story (after all, you're not going to get to decide "I give up my fate and go become a farmer" no matter how many good/ evil endings there are)  are what always marked the difference between JRPG and WRPG for me.   

On a gameplay and polish level I'd agree, although it remains to be seen if From can do it on any sort of consistent basis.  People interested in story though aren't going to find much in Demon's Souls in that regard, not that I'm complaining (I liked that it gave just enough backstory to set the atmosphere and didn't get bogged down in cutscenes or dialog).

While that may all be true, I think it's overstating it a bit. Japan is so heavily influenced by Dragon Quest that every developer just wants to make their own version of it. Pretty much! I think that's where the formula really comes from. But the whole "thrust into an epic because of fate" thing could very well apply to Lord of the Rings too, which also had a villain threatening the end of the world, and an unsuspecting character who couldn't walk away from his responsibility to defeat it.

As for character customization.. Japanese developers just like be involved in creating characters, and not have you fuck around with it too much. I mean, that's where they're real pride is.. Whether they can craft a story with emotional impact, whether they can create iconic/memorable characters, etc.. I don't think that's without western parallel either. You can't really futz around too much with those Marvel Universe RPG's either... where the point there is not customizing Spider-Man or Captain America, but identifying with him. In that game too you're there to play through a story, not necessarily create your own. I don't think that's a bad thing. So long as the story is good. And some JRPG's aren't good, I'd admit that.

Those are RPGs?  I thought they were just updated versions of Gauntlet.

Agreed. Poor imitations in terms of mob count at that.

Not just RPG's.  They're classic RPG's.

They are RPG's, more or less. That isn't the point though. It's just the first thing off the top of my head that's western + not very customizable. I'm sure there's plenty of others.. I just happened to see an ad for the new one before I wrote that.

RPG (western ones at least) have now really started to spread out a lot more, or at least their elements have. Witness Fallout 3, Borderlands, etc. Even those Marvel action games are a form of simple action RPG. Simple, yes, and yes they are updated Gauntlet games as well, but they're also hybrid RPGs.

While playing through Saints Row 2 in co-op on the weekend it really struck me how similar it is to an (single-player) MMO like WoW in a lot of ways. The huge sandbox is there, lots of missions/quests, character customisation, you can buy clothes and vehicles, earn money, get weapon upgrades both through mob drops (they drop weapons and cash) and also as quest rewards (complete level 3/6 of an activity and get this or that weapon). Buying "cribs" (player housing!) and decorating them, buying businesses that earm you more cash..

Still haven't played GTA4, but San Andreas (SR's precursor) had a lot of the same RPG-customisation in it, right down to weapon and driving skills, body deformation, and much of the same stuff that SR1/2 did later on.

The only thing really that stops SR2 (and the GTAs) being generally regarded as a Western Action RPG is the modern "gangsta" setting and lack of D&D levels. Which is apparently the thing (along with dialogue trees) that makes F3 an "RPG".

If the SR1/2 protaganist was dressed in plate armour, barbarian-furs, a chainmail bikini or a wizardly robe and running around a western-fantasy sandbox it'd be called an action-rpg by all and sundry. It'd be Zelda, (or Beyond Good & Evil) almost. Hell, look at Fable.

There's more RPG in a title like this than in something like Marvel UA or a level-up beat-em-up on rails like Wolverine or Heavenly Sword or (broken sword? the PS3 game with the redheaded chick in it), let alone GoW or it's slew of imitators. But those games are also at least slightly hybrid RPGs.

But yeah, the lines in western RPGs are blurring bigtime and the genre's elements are leaking into a lot of other game genres.

I haven't played any JRPGs for a while, I think the last one I played was Lost Odyssey, so excuse my generalizing.

With what I feel is a typical JRPG, I've always felt like I am just reading a book, with a "press butan" combat system tacked on that really adds nothing to the story at all, and provides no options except on how many levels I should grind out so I can face the next boss more easily. There are usually no dialog options and no real equipment options either. It feels like the entire game could have just been replaced by a 40 hour long cutscene.

With WRPGs, I feel like I have some options. You can actually fuck up a conversation with an NPC and it will make a difference. You wont get this piece of loot, you wont get a quest, whatever. You can avoid a boss, talk him down, or kill him. You can choose if your character is evil or good. With the "typical" JPRG, I don't feel like I have those options, and if I wanted to observe a world, and not interact with it, I would be reading a book or watching a movie.

Game will still have you needing to complete A -> B-> C-> D to complete the game.   You can do all of the window dressing you'd like, but there's still the progression along with your typical "good" or "evil" ending. 

I like a good RPG regardless of it's style, but they stopped making good JRPGs with the PS2.

I thought you liked Valkyria Chronicles? Or do you not consider that a JRPG (I know it isn't typical at all, but whatever)..

I wouldn't.  It's more akin to a SRPG like Disgaea.  There's a distinct difference between JRPGs and SRPGs imo.

Valkyria is most definitely an SRPG.

With JRPGs, it feels so much more like you are on rails. You have to do A one certain way in order to get to B while with WRPG you get to choose how to actually accomplish A. Am I just too behind the times, and JRPGs have improved upon this point without me playing the "right" ones?

Anyway, if I'm not, that window dressing makes all the difference to me.

I don't think you're necessarily behind the times, but I think you're taking the distinction to the extreme. Just because a JRPG wants to tell you a specific story doesn't mean it's like "reading a book". There's still party configurations, different skill trees to train those characters in, NPC's you gain favor/disfavor with, etc.. Just because some of your choices are not world altering doesn't mean it's completely static or something.

I have every faith that Heavy Rain will change how we think about storylines and completing games.

I think I might be also fixating on the older stuff as well, where you didn't really have a skill tree, you just kind of leveled up, and the only difference in favour with and npc were a few very minor dialog changes late in the game.

Also, just if I came off wrong about the "reading a book" thing, I think anyone can see by my posts in the books thread that I love reading, it's just I'm playing games for a different experience.

I think something to keep on mind here would be, the "typical JRPGs" are just a sliver of what they develop, and a number of games which are considered separate genres there could be considered "RPGs evolved" on the western market because they work around stats-based characters, development of these stats, playing certain roles, branching storylines with multiple outcomes etc.

Kotaku (yeah, so what) has an interesting bit about Dragon Age that I've not read before about "four ways to play the game." (http://kotaku.com/5385022/you-can-play-dragon-age-origins-sort-of-like-four-other-games)  Here is the part that caught my eye:

Is this serious or snark? I don't know much about Heavy Rain other than gorgeous scenery and QTEs.

Finally.  I can set my retard party members to 'hide behind cover when people shoot you' and 'don't use any special abilities or items until I tell you'.  Hopefully they move this system over to Mass Effect.

This is serious.  I'll throw up some spoiler tags here and go into some minor detail since schild is completely avoiding any information on the game right now, but if you look up some of the demos and listen to some of the interviews with David Cage you'll get an idea of what they're doing.

Back on the subject of Dragon Age, apparently if you want the amazing feature known as "permanent inventory space" you have to pay $7 for DLC.

Ha. Kudos to Bioware. It takes real balls to leave out major gameplay features so that you can gauge people for them separately.

Haha what?

 :ye_gods:

Source? Because I have no idea wtf you are talking about. If Sheepherder is correct and that is what you are talking about, I don't see what the big  :ye_gods: moment is with having a stash that is separate from your inventory to cram more shit in to.

Hmm... I guess I'm with Fatuous here.. Because if you think about it, umm.. Well, actually, I don't know/remember. Most games don't have a permanent inventory, do they? Definitely not bank spaces and stuff, like you'd see in an MMO (and even that isn't permanent). So maybe the pricing is justified..


THEN AGAIN, I'd say it'd be nicer if... you know... special features and shit were unlocked BY PLAYING THE GAME. That's the old school way of doing things. So in that sense, fee based DLC still doesn't sit well with me.

Keep in mind that Margalis likely has no intention of purchasing this game anyway since he doesn't seem too fond of Bioware or RPG's with "western art styles".  He's just looking for something to gripe about.

Developers charging for added content developed after the game went gold is fine by me. As long as bug fixes and "promised on the box"-content is still free, that is.

So is this game going to be legit or what?  I have a feeling it's going to be corny as fuck.

The only games I can remember having a separate inventory are Diablo 2, Titan Quest, and a German action RPG sequel which came out early this year that I wasn't a big fan of. Of course I'm missing some, but it doesn't seem like they usually even occur in a "traditional" RPG.

To be fair, I think all the BG/NWN games allowed you to leave shit in containers in your house/castle/other private area and pick it up later.

Of course, DA may allow that as well, only that you need the DLC to have an "intended place" for it.

Ah yeah, for sure. Even the keep you eventually win in BG2 doesn't really have any specific place to put loot, does it?

I was just referring to games that actually had a kind of mechanic built in, where your stash follows you around from area to area.

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1143749/LolStash.png)

I mean, the stash only makes it a $72 game, right?  And it's not like they're crippling their game to gouge you or anything.

Source (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/dragonage/news.html?sid=6232117).


Nothing in there about permanent storage being cockblocked by $7. Merchant trading sounds more like the D2 hub than anything else. So if it's persistent, just drop the stuff on the ground :-)

As to RPGs and storage space, I can't think of a recent one that didn't have it. Maybe I'm misrememberating, but ME and Fallout 3 both did.

No, not necessarily permanent storage being cockblocked, but then the alternative is just as likely.  Besides which, I don't think it would be a selling point otherwise.  Then again, even if it isn't, they still went and made a whole bunch of other shit and segmented it into DLC even before the game was launched.  It's not even a system-specific "Microsoft funded our extra development time" thing (which I understand), they just want to stick their gnarled cock in your eye socket and expect you to suckle their balls while they do it.

EDIT: Yes, that's two orifice-fucking jokes in one night, I'm just not good with making new material.  Haemish?  Can I get your creativity in here?

Actually, I'm laughing now because your screenshot DOES show permanent storage is behind a $7 cockblock  :grin:

And yes, it's about the money grab. You don't need to make an MMO to monetize like an MMO.

There's not really a difference between a separate inventory and nearly unlimited personal space. The problem here is that apparently space in DA is rather limited, which is a fine game design decision, but not fine when the decision was made so that they could sell you a woven basket on launch day.

Selling people a place to put their shit is basically saying "yeah, we know organizing your stuff is a pain in the ass in this game. We could fix that for another $7" And this isn't an MMO where more storage means server side space, database concerns, or other things that could justify any real price.

A game where you can only carry a few items is cool with me. A game where you can carry some items and leave some others lying around in random barrels is cool too. But once you give people the option of buying proper storage you're admitting what they get out of the box is not sufficient for the game that you've made. I am not a fan of DLC but to me DLC works best when it's a cosmetic feature or a feature that only certain people are interested in. (Or something like a mini expansion) Launch day DLC that includes features that were purposely withheld from the game is incredibly lame.

Resident Evil 1 has a separate inventory. That's a DLC feature now?

It's kind of sad how quickly people have accepted DLC when 95% of it is total bullshit. But at least things like $100 worth of alternate paint jobs in Ace Combat are completely inconsequential. Whereas this encourages the level scripters to put in more loot than players can reasonably manage knowing that DLC is available. It's in their financial best interest to design the game in a way that makes it a pain to play without DLC.

I suspect this sort of thing is going to become increasingly common - games that are overly grindy if you don't purchase XP potions, golf courses that are unreasonably difficult if you don't buy DLC clubs, character models that all look drab if you don't purchase extra costume items. Way too much DLC these days comes with a built-in financial incentive to sabotage what comes in the box.



Bioware is selling 2 or 3 different launch day DLCs. There is absolutely zero chance that these were developed after the game went gold. (Has it even gone gold?) Whoever programmed the incredible "basket where you put stuff" DLC feature was working on it at the same time that other programmers were working on the game itself. Speaking of financial incentives again, right now the best time to bring out DLC for a game is as close to possible to the release date while it's still fresh in people's minds, creates more excuses to issue press releases and fuel launch day hype, and is likely to get in people's hands before they're done with the game.  Which means there is an incentive to take people off of the game to work on DLC instead.

To be fair this is hardly a Bioware-specific problem, I just found this a particularly ridiculous recent example. A simple feature that most players obviously want is IMO a terrible feature to put in launch day DLC from the perspective of the consumer.

Executive summary: fuck DLC, but especially "pay us to make the game suck less" DLC.

Well to be fair, some games allow you to just dump shit on the ground and call it storage.  But this doesn't look like one of them.

Ok, I get your point much better now. I wasn't aware that the game had a limited backpack, I figured it would be more along the line of something like Mass Effect, and have more space than I would ever know what to do with. I was thinking that this was just another case of someone jumping on the hate bandwagon that seems to crop up around here every once in a while, but it wasn't.

I do agree with what you have said, but for some reason, my DLC rage over this is lessened by the fact that the 7 bucks isn't just this chest to cram your unused shit it, but also a quest to obtain a keep, and (at least I would hope) some customization options for said keep. That being said, fuck DLC and I'm not gonna be buying it.

Couple early (p)reviews out there are highly positive about the quality of plot, writing, offered choices etc. Words like "RPG of the decade" and "easily BioWare's best RPG" been thrown about. It's also apparently pretty hard, none of the modern faceroll to victory stuff.

It is. But they're not asking our opinion before they put it out either :-) And the reason companies keep doing it is because a) it's really cheap to give it a shot; and, b) enough people pay for it to retroactively show a demand.

New business opportunities aren't just created because people want something. They're often created because a company convinces the people to want something.

No, it makes it a $57/€57 game (Normal edition plus DLC) or a $65/€55 game (Digital Deluxe Edition - don't ask me why the US markup is so much higher than the EU one) if you consider the DLC essential. Even assuming the "stash" you get with the DLC is the only place you can store items conveniently, there's more content in that DLC as well.

The content development was apparently finished back in April or whatever when the PC version was done and intended for release, and the delayed release until now has been for porting to consoles. Also, this board's resident company employee posted "hypothetically" that their games go gold 1-4 months before launch. The Stone Giant stuff was originally intended to be in the game afaik, it just wasn't finished in time - but they are giving that one away for free with new games.

It's funny how there's some arbitrary line between DLC and expansions. Blizzard releases an expansion a year after game launch at $40? Cool beans! Bioware releases DLC content on day one for $7? God damn moneygrabbers are killing the industry! I guaran-fucking-tee you that LoD and Frozen Throne had seen more development time before the base game launched than what Warden Keep has.

They have also seen a lot of development time after the base game was launched. Like, a year of it, making it physically impossible to merge with the base game. While the "day 1 DLC" is well, done and all ready to be included in the core package.

I'm fairly sure if Blizzard tried to launch simultaneously the base game and the "expansion" with the final 10 levels for extra $40 you'd see people equally if not more annoyed about it.

But they could have used that development time to create additional content for the base release, instead of spending that development time on the expansion before release.

Releasing Day 1 DLC is a poor PR move by Bioware/EA for sure, but there's no more reason this should be free than Blizzard's (or whoever's) expansions.


Look at three different theoretical business models for game design:
a) Design the game until gold, then stop developing content for it
b) Design the game until gold, then start working on the $40 expansion to be released a year after launch
c) Design the game until gold, then start working on 4 pieces of $10 DLC, released gradually over the next year

Why should option c force you to give that added development time to the consumer for free (relative to the other two models)? It looks bad when the game launch is delayed and you suddenly have DLC available on day 1, but there's still nothing evil about that business model.

And as a gamer, I would rather have the DLC on day 1 than them artificially delaying it a couple of months to avoid money grabbing criticism.


If you feel the game isn't worth regular retail price without the DLC, don't buy it. The bitching about the business model needs to stop - it's a perfectly fair model, vote with your wallet.

This DLC isn't included in deluxe by their own account, the other ones are (free download or with a product key in the box).  So great, you're back to $57 or $72 respectively, like I said it was.  But don't mind me, I'm clearly not yearning for the taste of salty fleshsack in my mouth, which means I'm an irrational hater.

But do tell us how exactly you know that TBC and/or Wrath content was in development in 2004.  I'll wait.

There's also:

d) Design the game until gold, then work on day 1 patch that fixes and further polishes your product.

this i'd figure can be especially valuable when your base game has obvious issues with quality of some of its content. Improved base experience generally translates to more favourable reviews, and these in turn to more sales and wider base for the DLC you might want to release then?

It doesn't "force", but it's effectively a choice between generating extra goodwill for your company vs creating resentment towards it as the customers feel (right or wrong) being ripped off and perceive your company as unnecessarily greedy. To a degree, this could be seen as a decision between long term and short term profits.

Also, i'd wager your option c) wouldn't actually create any discontent if it was carried out 'to the letter' so to speak, i.e. these $10 add-ons were released 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the core game launch. It's purely the timing here that creates negative impressions.

Hurr hurr, I'll just make a penis joke instead of checking my facts! Then I win the forum war! RARR!


Warden's Keep is included in the Digital Deluxe Edition. It's not included in the boxed collector's edition, but that one contains all the regular assorted CE goodies.
Sauce at D2D. EA Store and Steam store will tell you the same, but I can't link to those because they automatically redirect me to the Norwegian versions of their pages even through google cache. (http://www.direct2drive.com/8459/product/Buy-Dragon-Age:-Origins-Digital-Deluxe-Edition-Download)

First, I was talking about the expansions to their non-MMO games. MMOs are a different beast entirely because you pay a monthly fee for content updates.
But no, I can't give you a source. Feel free to believe development started on Frozen Throne in July 2002, with beta starting in February 2003 if you want. You can make another penis joke too.

Yeah, that's another option. It may have been a better choice to give the first DLC away for free, even if that differed from the business plan. Note that they probably already have a free day 1 patch that "fixes the product". The DLC is added content.

I agree.

I agree that it would generate much less outrage and probably be a better PR move. But knowing what you know now, would you rather have Warden's Keep as DLC now or in 3 months?

Bruce, is that you?

While I don't know about the facts with Blizzard, yet personally doubt Wrath/TBC was ready in 2005 - let aside the fact that apparently some of the zones were in the original scope of the game - the sympathy/antipathy reception of the pricing decision will boil down to "How plausible can you make the fact that it has taken you extra effort to develop what you are charging extra" vs. "You just split some of the already existing byproducts from the original project scope and want to greedily cash in on them".

I don't have a problem accepting that something with a scope like Frozen Throne was done with a separate team, separate resources, based on an entirely new business case but *maybe* in a timeframe somewhere within vanilla WC3 development. (Wasn't WC3 2001 though?) That is why it also probably cost half of the price of  the vanilla WC3 box, because it offered comparable content but with probably vastly reduced production costs since you could reuse the tools, the engine and the other results of the WC3 development process. Blizzard needs to earn some money too!

Most people, however, believe that in this case, something like an extra "quest" available as DLC for DA should have been in the original product scope, should have been managed and produced in time for retail release, should have been calculated in the business case that led to the original pricing and thus, should be either included in the box release, or available for free at launch. This leads you to the discussions of greedy vs. not greedy policy, no matter how valid your lucid statement about 40$ large expansion vs 4x10$ byte-sized DLC is - and I do think you are actually correct there, number-wise.

My personal opinion regarding the DLC is that I'll have a look, if I don't feel like buying, I won't. I generally have no gripe with Bioware beeing greedy (yet). That might change, depending on the DLC quality/size/pricing.

Interesting.  It's included in Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/app/901037/), D2D (http://www.direct2drive.com/8459/product/Buy-Dragon-Age:-Origins-Digital-Deluxe-Edition-Download), Gamestop's (http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76143) Digital Deluxe Editions (same price as the boxed Collector's Edition).  It never occurred to me that the CEs wouldn't have it.  Weird.  Of course, it's not like I can preorder the boxed edition anymore anyways.  Buy it online and save yourself the heartache.

Boxed CE doesn't have it because the price mark-up is already covered by physical goodies.

Digital version obviously doesn't have said goodies, so to defend putting a CE pricing on it, they include the DLC.

I have rather weird approach to playing these RPGs, i think -- i'm very story-oriented so typically i play them just once (rarely twice if there's lot of branching) and the way the playthrough goes is what i choose to remember as "that's how things happened" for some fond recollection later. Based on this, i'd say the DLC released few months after launch is more preferable, because --combined with news the game was expanded-- it may give me incentive to replay the game and experience somewhat different story. While having it available on day 1 i'm more likely to just skip it (as, since it's excluded from the core package, it's not part of the core story in my eyes)

But ultimately i reckon i'm just not good target for DLC in RPG games. I'd much rather play/experience new stories even in the same settings, than replay what's pretty much the same plot but with some little extra toppings.

Actually, it's illegit and on a very special episode of Maury.

Also, you people need to unbunch your frilly bloomers. The game will probably be just fine without the DLC. So ignore it and enjoy the game. Or don't.

Is this the campaign where you make yourselves feel better about your eventual decision to pirate the game to stick it to the man? Maybe - just maybe - DLC and RMT are a means to combat flat pricing on pc games for the last 15 years, no adjustment for inflation. I don't hear much bitching about all those $60 console games. And you don't even get some little tidbit for the extra money.

I guess I just can't get past the part where there is sturm und drang over the completely optional DLC. Don't like it, don't buy it. Meanwhile, quicherbichen.

It took my satellite connection four days to download Planescape: Torment.  So no, but nice try.

This thread is all nice and frothy. Some of you should go shave your neckbeards, the hairs are getting a little long and have crumbs in. Boo-Hoo, You have to keep stuff in your inventory, how will you survive without the cool inventory stuff the rich kids have?

I posted earlier that I was entirely against day 1 DLC, but this argument is pretty stupid.

The DLC situation from Bioware:


On inventory stuff:



Oddly enough, those on the forums seem angry that the DLC allows a larger inventory.

Okay, I'm lost, so why is "zomg storage" a feature again, now that it apparently shows up in all of your camps?

Perhaps it gives you more?  You have 100 slots total without it, it gives you 125 with it?  *shrug*

Probably just marketing padding it out.  I mean it's better than the first Mass Effect DLC list:


Had it not been free on the PC, I would've been insulted by it.

Okay, from this I garner that Bioware's marketing division should be eaten to put their valuable proteins and lipids to better use than they currently are.

OK, so I made a game.  It's a big one, let's say one of those eastern-european RPGs except mine is good quality, like The Witcher.  I have been working on this game for five years and I plan to sell it for $50.  One day I slip on a wet condom getting out of bed and hit my head; when I come to, I have this idea to break my game into ten pieces and sell each for ten dollars.  Am I evil?

Later that day I accidentally hit my head on the rim of the toilet and when I wake up, I decide I want to release only Chapter 1 for $10 now and then release the others later, over time.  Am I evil?

Going outside to get the mail, I see a very attractive jogger bouncing by.  That gives me the idea that I can sell five select chapters all together since those tell the main story, then I can offer the rest of the chapters for sale later.  I could sell the main game for $40 and each additional chapter for $5.  Am I evil?

For no apparent reason, I design my next game such that the content can be divided up relative to gameplay mechanics instead of relative to story elements.  I plan to package the skeletal mechanics in the main box and sell gameplay functions as separate units.  Am I evil?

You don't have to be evil to be a tasteless money grubbing pig.

I'm just playing off the "zomg outrage" in the thread, trying to keep the excitement going.

I know.

I agree that pointing out the storage available in the DLC was a marketing mistake. People get to thinking that such functionality will NOT be available in the core game, which is a faulty but natural conclusion.

As long as the core game is worth the $$ I pay for it, I have no complaints. If I get the the day 1 DLC and feel that the core game is somehow "incomplete" without it, then yes I will be pissed.

Day 1 DLC is not a concern as long as it is not central to the core campaign. What I expect from DLC is additional content in the form of:
- new quest(s)
- new area(s)
- new balanced items
- new mobs
- maybe new balanced abilities
- additional voice talent
$10 DLC should provide at least 3-4 hours of additional play. $40 DLC should be almost as large as the original and perhaps offer additional game play features not available in the original game.

Hell, if you scale the price according to content... well, that's not going to happen.  I'd be OK with buying half a game for half the money.  I mean, what if you could take $15 off of Brutal Legend by not buying the RTS parts?  Hassan Chop!

http://www.hassanchop.com/

Yeah it's sad how I accept developers releasing optional additional content for games I really like.  Especially on games that I ordered on amazon for around $42 which already have between 50 - 70 hours of content in them.  Yep we sure are getting ripped off here.

I was willing to accept unlocking minor knicknacks here and there on a disc. But substantial DLC on day 1 that could've been baked into the game for additional story strikes me in a completely different way.

Also, you're just being contrary. But I'm pretty sure you already know that.

Hmm. Arkham Asylum was maybe 15 hours long, and people seem to think they got their $60 worth out of it. I'm told Uncharted 2 is about that long, and people are still saying game of the year. Meanwhile DA:O is estimated at 50-100 hours - even with an extra $7 tacked on for DLC the $/hour is way above what is apparently considered acceptable for other games.

I'm not sure I have a specific point to make, but it is interesting to me how we can get picky about $/hour figures for DLC without blinking an eye about it for base games in general.

3-4 hours was a somewhat arbitrary value. Quality of experience is also a factor that is harder to quantify but is even more important. I also think we tend to have different expectations of play times from different genres.

DLCs do seem to be at a price premium. For example if you add up the cost of all 5 Fallout 3 DLCs you could buy a whole game. However the potential DLC buyer is already hooked, so you can get away with a little gouging. What is the optimum price point? They would certainly sell more at $3.99, but would they make more profit?

I'm really not just being contrary.  I honestly don't give a shit if a developer want to try to sell additional content on Day 1.  I don't have to buy it, and especially with development costs being what they are these days, I understand that in cases like this it might even be necessary for the developer.   Just because it could have been put in with game doesn't mean it's owed to you for free.  Like I said before, that game has been in development for over 5 years.  Do they not have the right to try to make their development costs back just because you feel paying $40-50 gives you the right to every bit of content that they've generated up until the point the game releases?

Edit:  In fact I'll go you one further.  Not only am I not just being contrary, but I think the only reason you and some of the other people here are so upset of DLC (and on Day 1 in particular) is because you guys have some tinfoil hat, slipperly-slope, conspiracy theories in your head about how developers will start taking large, important parts out of the base game just to sell to you as DLC later.

Especially seeing as, minus the delay of the main game, the DLC would've come out maybe a month or so later rather than Day 1?  Would there be any complaints then?

I'm more reamed at having to pay $39.99 for Super SFIV than this.

I am assuming your point is that quality trumps quantity; basically what evan said.  I agree with that, but the character generator leads me to believe you may be looking at 50-100 halfassed hours.  Maybe.  They really should have not let that one out because I'm assuming the game is shit based on that.  I'd rather play 15 hours of Awesome than 100 hours of Shit.  I can't be alone on that one.

As for the other conversation, personally I don't believe in "rights" exactly.  People can do what they want; obviously this DLC thing is great, or at least it doesn't suck.  I'd hate to see a marketing decision ruin a game, though.

Can you articulate what about the character generator makes it feel half-assed to you? Is it just that the sliders go too far, allowing you to create one of those inbred X-files mutant guys?

I'm pretty happy with it as far as it goes, honestly - compared to, say, Oblivion or Fallout 3 I can create a much better looking character. Being able to preview what the character's face is going to look like when it is actually talking is a particularly nice thing to have.

I'll have to get back to you since my reasons are not all that awesome.  Basically it's "my friends don't like it" and "everything looks like shit as seen in Oblivion" and I didn't see a slider lock.  I didn't like the one in TESIV very much and the comparisons come readily.

I'm still willing to give this game a chance, but I don't plan to get it on launch day or anything.

Ah, well, I didn't elaborate on the TESIV one, did I?  I found that there were just a few places on sliders where something looked decent, and some sliders were just an exercise in finding that one place that didn't look like garbage.  Plus it was like a one-way system since they only way to get back to something that wasn't from an X-Files episode was to just reset everything.

Fair enough. It could also probably use a 'randomize' button.

The problem I see with DLC on Day 1?  Psychology.

The reality doesn't matter.  It stinks of a money grab to a lot of people, so it's bad PR.  Wait a month and it's a lot more tolerable and hailed as awesome.

Do the tutorials count as important? (Joystiq) (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/04/eas-premium-ripoff/)

There are types of things I will accept on Day 1. These include:

Flair
Flair
Flair

Things that effect in no way, shape, or form even a tiny bit of the story or game (whether that be ADDING TO THE BASE or expanding somewhere entirely separate).

Things I won't accept on Day 1:

STORY

I'm sorry, but saying it doesn't effect the core game is just bullshit. If there's so much as a line of dialogue from anyone that isn't a merchant that says more than "What're you Buying?" it's a goddamn money grab. It's not psychological, it's the result of a marketing jackass.

From reading that article, those tutorials sound decidely unimportant.  Thanks for the three year old article though.  It's something I'll keep in the back of my mind if I ever decide to purchase Madden '07.

So even a random side-story is a problem?

At launch? Yes.

Edit: Because odds are there's at least some characterization going on.

Why do you feel like one flat cost for the game entitles you to everything they've developed so far regardless of their budgets?

Fair enough.

Because it's how games have worked up til...

...

...

...

Microsoft.

I don't want to make this a Microsoft hating thread. And I refuse to; the core idea behind DLC really doesn't bother me. It's the abuse behind it that does.

Why do you feel paying the box cost for a game doesn't entitle you to the content they've made for the game up until release?

Yeah, really..

"Expansions" are one thing.. I mean, they are just that. "Expanding upon something we already made". But when a game hasn't even been fucking released(!), how is that in any way comparable to an "expansion"? What are they expanding on? Nobody has even played the original game yet.

As for DA specifically, I don't know if it's a cockblock or convenience.. I guess nobody does. Maybe having limited inventory isn't so bad in practice, and the game plays fine with it. But the general idea behind the DLC is still stupid. It just screams marketing decision, as opposed to "designer" decision, and I hate that shit. Can't do anything about it but bitch though.

Of course, back in the old days before DLC, content that looked like it might not be ready for release would likely have just gotten cut earlier on development, never to be completed.


Because it's not up to me to determine how a company wants to sell its product.  It's up to me to determine if I want to buy it.  They've got access to their financial numbers.  I don't.  I don't know what it's going to take for them to break even on this game or make a profit.  I don't know how much this game cost them to make, what their projected box sales are, or what their projected DLC sales are over the next couple years.  I don't know if the game and Warden's Keep were budgeted separately (I'd guess that any DLC that comes out afterwards is).

I also understand that why I go watch a movie in the theater, I'm not seeing every scene that was filmed and completed (and a lot of deleted scenes contain characterization.  My money doesn't entitle me to see everything they filmed.

I think that's a copout, man. We're just talking about inventory space here. Not "content".  :grin:

Besides that, fuck, I can buy full downloadable games for just a little over $7. This is a just what probably amounts to the tiniest bit of code. If you are going to charge $7, try harder.

It's not just some addition to inventory space though.  It's "here's a Keep you can take over, and you can store shit there".  That's content, it's not a fix to the inventory system or something.

Also, if you haven't already, go back and read this post. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13728.msg719619#msg719619)

Velorath, you're being uniquely ridiculous in this thread. I don't understand nor do I care why. I can think of a thousand reasons to have DLC out the door as soon as possible, but not one of them comes with a plan that I'd release DLC on day 1. That's reprehensible. Sorry.

Also, I don't care about the inventory space increase. That sort of DLC strikes me as stupid and insulting, but I'm not going to bitch and moan about it. Bethesda started that trend with horse armor, it's not stopping any time in the future. Doing such a thing on the PC is stupid though since someone will just mod it in.

Finally, when in doubt, assume marketing has massaged an answer.

No you're just being overly paranoid.  It's like getting upset when buying a new car when they offer something like say, an MP3 player as an option because you think if you support that, manufacturers will then start making important shit like the brakes an option you need to pay extra money for.

You're going off the deep-end over some shit that's optional because you're afraid you might miss a few lines of dialog (completely disregarding the fact that unless you play the game through 6 times at the very least there's going to be dialog and characterization that you'll be missing anyway).

No, it's nothing like that. But thanks for trying.

Why does everyone default to the car analogy when it comes to games? It just doesn't work.

Works better than "DLC sucks!  Developer's have no right to try to make money for their efforts!  ZOMG Marketing did it!".

Hey, if a developer came out and said:

"We know you want housing, and you know we like money: Here's a compromise."

Instead of this other bullshit, at least it would just be a bitter pill to swallow. What shocks me is how unbelievably stupid you're being about it. It's like, there's a forest here, but there's no trees.

I just downloaded the Mass Effect DLC "Bring Down the Sky" yesterday.  It was one planet and took me 90 minutes to finish.  It was very good but was it $7 worth?
Well I could have watched a movie at a matinee for the same price.  So yes, I'll say it was worth it, but just barely.  They priced it well I think.

As far as Day 1 DLC I don't care as long as it's optional stuff.  Obviously if I have to buy it to play the game that's fucked up.

I also think it's insulting that I have to worry about developers putting food on kids' tables. I mean, basically that's what some comments sound like. i.e. I should be take into account that companies need to make up costs. Puh-lease. I'm definitely positive that worrying about paychecks applies to me more than them. And the same goes for many gamers. The difference with me and others is that many gamers are stupid, single, and operate under the assumption that they have disposable income (most don't though, in practice). DLC is a phenomenon born out of the desire to tap into this idiotic "disposable income gamer" market. Not for the poor wittle game developers who will die from starvation.. I mean, if that's really the case, just give me your address then. I'll some send beans and rice.

You don't need to worry about it, they do.  And that's why they set the price of the game they way they do, and plan out DLC like they do.  You need to worry about putting food on your table.  That's why you decide whether or not the game or the DLC is worth a purchase or not.  You don't have to care about the factors that cause an item to be priced a certain way.  It does help to understand that those factors exist though if you want to get into a discussion about it.

Publishers do NOT plan DLC according to how much a developer needs food on the table.

GTFO with that.

My position is simply that I don't give a shit whether a developer releases optional DLC or not, and whether or not they do it on Day 1.  You're the one on the crusade, so by all means call me unbelievably stupid just because I'm not there with you foaming at the mouth complaining something so retarded.

This thread is awesomely stupid.

Day1 dlc is fine, I'm simply not going to buy Dragon Age: Whatever because of it.

Sorry for oversimplifying it, but I was pretty sure we were all grown up enough to just understand all the reasons companies like making a profit.  I'd take the time to spell them all out for you, but I'm heading out for work at the moment and I don't like typing up posts on my phone.

Meh. Like I said, I think these rise in costs are simply because they think gamers are idiotic with money (and they mostly are, don't get me wrong.. It's probably a dream market for some of the people involved in marketing games). And they're cashing in on it. If there was a real expense problem, then I think the rise in the cost of games already cover that as it is. They've risen $10 more on average in just one "generation" (XBox and PS went from $50 a pop to $60).

If there are personal money problems, then they are bullshit money problems - the same bullshit problems people with a lot money complain about all the time. And these problems have nothing to do with falling on their asses. It's like this jeweler I met the other day.. He was bitching from living a $200k lifestyle to an $80k one. He wasn't in danger in any way. He just wanted to maintain a lifestyle. Credit goes to him for actually adjusting to a new lifestyle though. In the case of game companies, I don't believe that's the case. They're never inward-looking about it - and it reflects in the rise of costs in general.

Anyways, this is really beyond the scope of DLC, and I don't mean to rant. I just think that's bullshit. And yes, I have a choice. I'll give you that. I won't be buying the "inventory" DLC. Hell, I might not even buy the game either. I sorta just started reading on it.  :why_so_serious:

Guys, this is really very simple. They charge because they can. Why put everything into the launch when they can monetize it after? DLCs are not sold at a 100% ratio to the initial purchase, so the first goal is to figure out how to get that up to 100%. Because the assumption that everything is going DLC was set forth long long ago. Blame MMOs if you want to blame anything. Microsoft just made it easier on their console later.

These are not money problems. This is about profit above the basic cost/profit of the initial install. That's why you'll see even more game features move to DLC, because they're going to figure out the bare minimum for a "normal" install through iteration.

And enough people are new to this business model on consoles that they'll happily pay what amounts to business R&Ding along the way.

Am I right in assuming for people with this position on the topic that if they sat on it for a month and then released it, that would make it OK? Or at least more OK?

I can understand drawing a line in the sand and saying "NO DLC EVER" - I may not agree personally but it is a logical position that I can understand the motivations behind. I'm not sure I understand the in-between position of getting picky about exactly when DLC becomes available.

Yes. I don't care if they had it done on day 1. Just don't fucking tell me about it.


Darniaq, every single person in this thread and probably every single gamer out there 100% understands that.

This is just EA being EA. They never saw an idea they liked without completely destroying it.  It's a shame they're pissing away all of the goodwill and credibility they paid all of that money to the Bioware owners for but again that's just EA being EA.

They're going to totally overdo the whole DLC thing and I'm going to skip this game until it appears in the bargain bins.

I'm content for them to keep killing the goose until there's no more golden eggs. By this, I mean that this is ultimately a self-correcting problem. Many gamers will buy DLC because the base product pleases them. It pleases them by being a good, full-featured, complete product with a lot of content, by and large. You can try to sell DLC for an underdeveloped, buggy, content-light game but I doubt you'll get many bites even if you spread the money out and buy some game journalist mouth on your weeny little developer cock.

Now, is the game industry capable of digging their own grave, getting cozy in it and then yelling for someone to put the dirt back? Sure. Individual companies have pulled just that move, and I don't doubt that the industry as a whole can go that way as well. The companies that know enough to steer clear of releasing anemic products with a conscious intent to bring them up to speed with an extra $30.00 of DLC are going to better in the long run than those that give in to the temptation.

I like that this is somehow evidence that Bioware is doing a fine thing here:


Note that it doesn't include "on their weekends and evenings" anywhere in there. What that line says is that members of the team were paid to work on DLC simultaneous with other people on the team working on the core game. That is the exact meaning. It does not say "the game went gold and we were bored" or "Mark drank a fuckton of coffee and went berserk implementing crazy new features behind our backs." It says "we could have had team X work on feature Y in the core game, but then we couldn't have charged extra for it, so instead we had them work on it as a separate package." (Never mind that no swindler is going to come out and say "yeah, we're swindling you.")

That developers will take out features to sell them as DLC is "tinfoil hat" thinking? You can bet every single publisher has a cadre of people figuring out how to do exactly that. "Paranoid?" No, that's reality and there are numerous examples of it already happening. Games as little more than a DLC delivery platform is a publishing wet dream.

What barrier has to be broken for someone to revisit this thread and laugh? Features removed from sequels and sold as DLC instead? Already happened. Release day new game modes as DLC? Already happened. 1k DLC downloads that unlock content on the disc? Already happened. Full games broken into DLC that all told costs more than double the full game? Already happened.


No, the problem is much more concrete than that. There is pressure on dev teams to think about DLC very early in production, to plan around DLC, to purposely leave holes that DLC can fill, and to design the game in such a way as to encourage players to pick up the DLC.

If you buy a game and it has annoying greyed out menu items that do absolutely NOTHING unless you own the DLC that detracts from the boxed experience. Not only is it a constant irritating reminder to buy moar please but it clutters up the UI needlessly. In Tiger Woods half the fucking items can't be used. they just sit there adding to the loading time. If there is an option to play online and choosing it gives you a sad face and a message that you need to pay more money that actively detracts from the core game. Soul Calibur 4 shipped with an extra character slot that just sat there, looking forlorn. (Until you paid for Yoda/Darth) And in many ways DLC encourages bad design because the best DLC is DLC that people want and the best way to make them want something is to make the experience much less enjoyable without it while reminding them of that fact.

Instead of asking "how do we make the best game we can" developers are going to be increasingly asking "how do make the game that best sells DLC?" Which is not the same answer.

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/99701/internet%20high%20five.jpg)

I have to say I find it incomprehensible for regular consumers to quickly defend things from the corporate perspective, even adopting their language and arguments. For example Velorath arguing that the inventory thing isn't just inventory so it's real content worth $7. It's a bundle, and it's put together the same way a launch day console bundle is - something you want along with some shit a lot of people aren't going to be interested in. Same reason the downloadable track strategy for Guitar Hero was to put together 3 song bundles such that few sane people wanted all 3 songs but most wanted at least 1.

They could simply sell unlimited inventory space for $1 but probably too many would buy that instead of the $7 package.

No. You sound clumsy and horny and are about to invent a time travelling DeLorean.

Pretty much agree with you on everything.

The only thing I'd defend from a corporate perspective (somewhat) is that I forgot that Bioware = EA nowadays. I forgot that this was an EA game. In which case, yes, I wouldn't doubt that some of the developers could use some beans and rice. He'll I'll make some of them sushi. My treat. Sorry for the hard times guys. And the 80 hour work weeks.

There's a lot of money being made, but I'm not sure "happiness" is trickling down to these guys specifically. Perhaps DLC just might save their lives, after all.  :grin:

Just like I don't blame EA for Bioware Austin, I won't blame EA for this brand of silliness coming out of Bioware Edmonton. I'm sorry, but they do not get a pass on this because they're owned by EA.

Also, EA pays as well as any other company for most positions - and better than many.

How about multiplayer modes on the disk needing to be unlocked through a product key? (Joystiq also, sorry Schild, I'm not schilling, I swear) (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/10/joystiq-review-resident-evil-5-versus-mode-dlc/)

Actually at EA as a whole there's a lot of money being lost. Just an aside.

DLC is subtly different for RPGs than for games like, say, racers.  RPG DLC is basically the player paying five bucks to get a certain flavor of awesome thing for his character.  Bethesda really distilled it down to the very core.  Horse armor.  You want an armored horse, you give them three bucks.  I wanted an armload of alien guns in Fallout, so I paid them for the UFO expansion.  Gameplay?  Well sure it was there, but that wasn't the point.  I just wanted pew pew so I could disintegrate people square in the face and giggle.

I'm not paying for gameplay that may or may not have been cut from the game.  I'm paying for a toy that looks swank and gives me an unfair advantage.  If I want gameplay, I'll go for an expansion pack.

Of course DLC is a money grab. If the game is perfectly playable without it, you can just ignore it. If not, don't buy the core game or wait for the GOTY edition.

Once core features are missing, they've crossed a line. Problem is developers decide what a core feature is. A different way of handling inventory smells somewhat fishy for day 1 DLC. But I didn't play the game yet. Will inventory management be perfectly fine without it or will your gaming experience hurt without it? No way to know yet.

Personally I'll be waiting for the Expansion packs. But I would anyway because of their retarded way of delivering via Games for Windows. After the Fallout language debacle I won't touch that again!

Again, the storage shit appears to be bad PR.  Apparently they define "permanent storage" as an actor reference that isn't instantiated/movable, as opposed to a container for storing gear which isn't garbage collected periodically like the rest of the gaming world defines it.  One would assume their definition also includes not being garbage collected.  In gamer parlance it should read:

• We have storage crates in our DLC, FUCK YEAH!

The question that remains is if there are storage crates without the DLC, though. For me it sounds like a base of operations for convenience. Is it is the ONLY base of operations?

That's what I'm saying, according to their PR there is no other "permanent storage", because the other player-owned storage moves with you.

A dev explicitly said on the forums that you have a "Campsite" where followers stay and one of the things at this campsite is some kind of storage.

There were a couple of posts on the official forums explaining why this DLC couldn't have been included in the main game:

http://www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1254519420

http://www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1254525660

I can come up with reasons and post them on a forum too. It's really easy. Like, REALLY easy.


It's obviously a problem for Bioware.

:oh_i_see:

That people will constantly take it up the ass with software where they'd throw a fit in any other consumer product pulling the same stunt always amuses me.


Using the logic of the Bioware post, my company should stop installing cabinets and dishwashers in the houses we sell.  It means we could have them done and turned over to the homeowners a full 6 weeks earlier!  If we stop drywalling all but the minimum number of rooms required by Code, earlier still!  Hell, if we don't include A/C, even in the more tropical climates, that's another two weeks!  We won't drop the prices, of course, but you can buy these upgrades any time you want to!

I gotta say, the "screw the consumer" attitude of some of the games companies these days (Activision, IW, BW, EA) is really getting me to the point where I'm highly likely to go back to the methods of software aquisition I frequently used when I was much younger and less monetised, though this time on a very selective basis.

At least that's what a friend's friend's friend got me to thinking.

 :why_so_serious:

Oh, shit, you know him too? Say hi for me, he hasn't been around the last few days.

Except that EA's marginal cost after the first sale is essentially zero.  Software is different from everything else.

Edit: I should mention the above statement is only tangential to the pricing and release schedule for DLC.  It's really just a way to milk people who are willing to pay more to boost margins on the original product.

That's pretty fucking obvious, but it's not any different from what any other software developer does.  DLC/Expansions are just gaming's versions of Pro versions.

The thing with Bioware's issues are that DLC is not immune from certification.  A full regression test should be done with and without the DLC to make sure the DLC does not interfere with aspects of the main game, and it has to still be approved by Microsoft's QA as well as their own QA before it can be released.  So I"m not quite sure how their response makes the slightest of sense for a day 1 purchaseable DLC.

Sounds more to me like Bioware is giving people with not much to do at the moment something to show the EA bean counters so they don't get fired or laid off.

Because if the DLC breaks the main game you still ship the main game on time.

You'd be surprised. They have a high bar for call-backs, never mind on-site interviews or hiring. In the five years I was there, they hired writers at a rate of about one a year. And I've mentioned how Ray and Greg hate laying people off -- the first time the company ever did a layoff was part of EA's global worksforce cuts at the beginning of the recession.

In other words:


This.

That's what happens when you sell out for a muffin.

With which we can lay all those "Electronic Arts is different now, they won't try to screw up developers they buy anymore" nonsense to rest, can't we?

That particular line wasn't necessarily referring to the Canadian branch. :awesome_for_real:

In other news, (http://kotaku.com/5387177/explore-the-uncanny-valley-with-the-real+life-ladies-of-dragon-age) :facepalm:.

Yea probably would've helped if those models actually translated into something worth looking at in game.

Not quite the awesome achievement the Metal Gear Solid B&B Corp were, eh?

WTF is up with her neck? (http://cdn2.maxim.com/maxim/files/2009/10/20/exclusive-girls-idragons-agei/victoria-johnson_l2.jpg)

RPG sliders.

I feel like instead of modeling using those women, they looked at pictures and used the character creator.

Otherwise it should've turned out something like this:
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/5605/lyndallqi4.jpg

The Maxim article implies it was the body shapes they used as reference... they do appear similar enough. The faces are likely indeed limited to what the sliders can do.

And Bioware advertising in Maxim seems to become a tradition at this point... :why_so_serious:

It just seems like in the past couple weeks every major videogame developer has gone full retard.

You haven't been watching the industry for some time, have you?

I found my GIS of the second one (Alleykatze) rather fruitful.

Just saying...

Getting back to teh money grabz:

Fable 3 to have MT (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6237594.html)

Swords, and uh... walkthroughs for a small fee. Shit maybe they should have included a leveling service too.

I'm equally worried about "Natal support" mentioned in that article. My defintion of console gaming doesn't and never will include standing in front of the TV flapping my arms and legs like an idiot.

Why would you need a walkthrough for a game in the Fable franchise? They practically play themselves.

Hey, Molyneux changed his position 180 degrees on this... sometime between the Wii being released and Project Natal being announced. :oh_i_see:

What's to be worried about? It's Fable 3, are you actually expecting something good?

Well, not really, it was just an opportunity to express my feelings about Natal :)

I don't give a crap about Fable 3.  I can't force myself to play Fable 2, there's not a single fun thing to do in that game.  And I liked Fable 1.

You can make your character crap his pants.


Incidentally...that should be a particularly fun activity in Fable 3 with full Natal integration  :ye_gods:

http://www.dragonagejourneys.com/

The web-based flash strategy RPG based on Dragon Age. It's pretty neat! I am enjoying it.

Also, you get a hat in DA:O for getting 5 achievements in the flash game.

You have to pay $3 to wear the hat though.

I think maybe they misunderstood the term 'money hats'.

I enjoy it as well.  Played it for awhile.  Decent time waster.

Launch day DLC.

I'm pretty sure that even evil, greedy and stupid EA wouldn't delay shipping a title because their $7 add on dungeon isn't ready on launch day.  But hell I've been wrong before.

I'd not be surprised if the game slipped and EA offered the DLC first.

If you count the unlocks in the Java game I think it has.

Am I delirious, or is this becoming a single-player RPG with an MMORPG grind that begins before you even get the game?

Achievement grind.

The item grind/DLC is especially flabbergasting; I sure can't wait to get some +2 ring to.. impress my friends? Make this single player game easier? It doesn't seem that anyone is thinking this through.

EDIT: Or perhaps I am being too optimistic and this is all it takes to part a million yahoos from their hard earned money? It is truly a strange new world.

You are not, I found myself going out of the way to kill some monsters that I didn't have to just because they were there and I wanted to level up my guy.

There's no for-pay item DLC that I'm aware of. Everyone gets the blood dragon armor.

The SUPER SEKRET Dragon Age PS3 announcement  was that the PS3 version will ship at the same time as the other two now.  Other tidbits of fun (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/10/dragon-age-origins-live-chat-with-bioware-today/):

Enjoy the armor for the game we won't give you!  WOO!

So, not integrated at all.

No plans whatsoever.  Buy it on PC.

They make the demons go away...

Yeah, the only thing nifty about the blood dragon armor is if you buy DA you get similar looking armor in ME2.

I'd like a "sage nod" smiley to use here.

I'd also like to nominate AutomaticZen as the Official F13 PR translator.

Actually, I read that as:

The Witcher was awesome in releasing extra content as part of a Special Edition. We're going to do the same, only without the pesky part of actually creating the content.

What, no comments about random hungarian journalists winning the Dragon Age launch event (beating the Bioware/fanboi team even)? Hungary, FUCK YEAH!!11  :awesome_for_real:

(also, is the release date nov 6 now, or is europe getting screwed again?)

That's just ridiculous.

We're getting screwed again.

Yeah, if I could find the Johnny Cash Middle Finger Neti Pot picture again, I'd send it to EA and Bioware.

Really? A couple of days is being screwed? Ask Australia about L4D2. That's being screwed. You're just impatient.

My copy is in the USPS, so hopefully I get it by xmas. I probably won't have time to play it until after the holidays anyway, with all the stuff on my plate.

Man up and deal, etc.

Guess what got leaked :awesome_for_real:

Karma strikes back!

Meh, the DLC thing is pretty shitty but that's not much of karma (or maybe too much)  Now if it was only the DLC that got leaked, instead... :why_so_serious:

Virtually every PC game since the dawn of the Internet?

Sort of on this topic; i know the disc-based version is supposed to only come with disc check, but does anyone know what (if any) kind of DRM is used for the direct2drive version? Not sure if i want to get some fancy Securom in a fresh windows 7 install and skimming through Google finds didn't bring anything conclusive...

Sweet sweet comeuppance.

 :headscratch:

PC gamers are a vicious bunch.

So does this come out today, or what? I'm so confused!

The US version comes out on Wednesday because it is traditional, and the EU version comes out on Friday, because it's also traditional. Note the complete lack of mention of customers, those greedy leeches, in this situation.

FIFY

Does anyone know what the movement is like for this game? Is it the same style as Mass Effect and Kotor or is it more like Balders Gate, and Neverwinter Nights?

Combat video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMcjyHnzg60&feature=related), Gameplay (movement starts ~3mins or so) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lub5e_9NDW8)

Both from EA's Youtube channel.

Before its released to the public? Not so much.

It's one day before release, so a lot of retailers should already have it in their stores.  If you don't think this is a common occurance, you just haven't been paying attention (you do know that the 360 version of Modern Warfare 2 has been leaked already right, so it's not even just PC games this is happening with?).

Irrelevant, most games are not leaked before they hit the streets. It happens, its not common.

It seems like it happens with most big games any more. Street dates are always getting broken.

Oh god stop talking about it.

If a game has a street date, it's generally leaked before launch because it's shipped before launch (well-before, typically).
If a game doesn't have a street date, it probably won't even make it to stores before launch, let alone get leaked.
If a game is sent to every reviewer with no checks for legitimate sites in place (indie stuff mostly), it will get leaked before launch.
If a game is sent to retailers on ship day and the press people know all the PR folks they're sending it to, it won't get leaked.
If a game requires online activation to decrypt or add to the EXE (in the case of say, Bioshock), it will not get leaked because it is missing vital information.

Now STFU and stop derailing the thread.

I got my copy from the EA store today (couldn't find a CE anywhere else).   Seems like they shipped early.   Been playing it for a few hours now and all I can say is:

OMG it's a god damn honest to god PC RPG  :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill:!  I can't even fathom how they got this working on consoles.

We need a "I hate your guts right now but tell me more" smiley.

 :mob:

Did you play Baldur's Gate 1 when it came out?   I remember that feeling of going "WOW" at the graphics of the painted backgrounds.   When I zoomed out in this game it was just like that.  Instant tenting.   Some people will zoom in obsessively and go "blah" but it hit the sweet spot , for me, of that sort of beauty that BG brought to rpg's.

Everything about the interface just screams "haha gamepad you can't touch this".  The camera works perfectly and is exactly what NWN2 should of been.     I'm sure they cobbled something together but this stuff is clearly PC first console second.   Of course after the total consolization of Borderlands it might just be standing out in contrast.   The dialogs are pure awesome.   The first guy you really talk (as a mage anyways) to has just craploads of stuff to say and you just keep clicking and reading and OMG .  The actual rpg system feels solid too.   None of that halfassed crap they put in Jade Empire or Mass Effect.   Stats and skills and weird interactions and prestige class type things.   The combat is pure Infinity Engine meets 2009  :awesome_for_real: :drill: :drill:.

Of course this is all just my pure lust for a real BG style sequel and if you were waiting for something else I don't know how you'll like it.   It's definitely a real god damn RPG though.

From a gameplay video i saw the console version has quite different control scheme which seems to fit the gamepad well. This is not to say the game isn't "PC first then ported" but just, if someone was shown only the console version they'd probably get the opposite impression. Pretty cool they put such effort in both releases.

Now that I'm more into the game I think I see what they did.  They have a sort of AI thing similar to FF12.   I haven't fiddled with it but I can see how it would make the game at least playable on a console.  Some stuff though I'm curious how they'll handle.   Like the game has friendly fire and this makes lining up AoE's pretty important.   Fiddling with player positioning can often require you to have all your characters moving to specific locations all at the same time.  I'm sure it's possible on the console but I can't imagine it's quite as good.   Plus you have obvious stuff that's just always better on a pure PC UI like inventory managment.

I hope the console version is good though.  I want this to sell well and not be like "oh look that game was fail because it was a PC port".

This is supposedly toned down a lot in the console version, precisely because it's much more difficult to control with the control scheme they have going in the console version. Side-effect is, console version is easier in comparison. (source (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=1951857&postcount=2781))

My plan is to buy the 360 version since my laptop only meets min specs.  But now I'm a bit worried.  Suggestions?

Spend all your life-savings on a new desktop computer. Buy the PC version.

It sounds like the two versions are totally different.  If you can only control one character at a time in the console version then that's not even remotely the same game.   If you aren't the kind of person to keep a gaming PC around though then does that sort of thing really matter to you?   Console games never have that sort of gameplay and you've already sort of made a decision to be a console gamer so it might not hurt your enjoyment at all.

Hmmm. If only there were a way to compensate developers for their work without DLC.

Actually, I have an idea. It came to me when I thought about how if costs rise higher than the set price everything in the world must be then why don't we just raise prices on those things that cost more to make? I know it's never been done before, but I think it would probably work. And when people could make a profit on things that cost a lot to make people might actually start making and selling expensive things. This would probably also help the American car manufacturers, it must be really hard to turn a profit when you need to sell each car for the same price as a happy meal.

 :headscratch:

It is Melbourne Cup Day. There's a good chance he's been drinking.

Bless November.

This is seriously testing my want-to-be-honest-since-I-can-technically-afford-to-now resolve.

I'm still on the fence. I want to buy the game, because if it's anything like Baldur's Gate I'll really enjoy it. But the character generator and DLC-at-launch thing really has me looking at this sceptically. If I hear its good from those friends of mine who purchased it, I'll probably do the same.

But I'm wary.

Also had the day off.

PCG (UK) Review. (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=226557)

Also, This game will unlock in approximately 7 hours :drill:.

Classic. I shall embrace my white family with open arms.  :grin:

In a way it's kind of funny. It gives me a Chappelle show vibe.

Oh sweet, I can roleplay I'm <insert attention whoring famous person here>'s recently adopted kid from Africa, and they didn't even make me pay extra to do so on day 1 with their DLC.

DA:O, now with more simulation features!  :awesome_for_real:

"Think the party AI sucks? Fix it yourself!"

Obligatory F13 sarcasm aside, I think this is a neat feature.

Stolen from FFXII, yes?

Need more reports.

I was going to say Phantasy Star IV myself which had the combat macros at least.   The conditional trigger stuff is definitely a sweet improvement though. 

Le sigh, all the pirates are playing DA and soon so are Murricans. As an euro scumbag I paid the highest price and get the worst service, especially if Steam intends to make me wait until 8PM on Friday like the countdown suggests. Thanks EA and Steam for punishing me for being a customer!

They're not punishing you for being a customer!  There punishing you for being European.  Get it right.

 :why_so_serious:

Dude I was already aiming that at myself for being a little bitch who whines about video games. This is such a shit hobby for shit people.

Eurogamer 8/10 (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/dragon-age-origins-review)

But yet they give it an 8/10. Ooookay.

Either way I'm still antsy because I won't get it until tomorrow.

BALTIMORE, MD, US     11/03/2009     8:50 A.M.     DEPARTURE SCAN

/sadface

This whole release date cockmongering is like a guy standing on the street shouting "fuck you" at your place. Sure, you can close the window and he can't bother you anymore, but why is he shouting fuck you at me for no reason at all?

Quite; really not getting the 3 day delay for European release, unless the staggered release is supposed to somehow protect Bioware DLC servers from meltdown or something.

Odd.  They give it an 8/10, and many of the other reviews say the opposite.

Gamespot (9.5) (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dragonage/review.html)

CVG (9.4) (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=226557)

GameInformer (9.0) (http://gameinformer.com/games/dragon_age_origins/b/pc/archive/2009/10/05/review.aspx)

Against the Eurogamer review:


I got the feeling from reading it, that he was aiming to give it a 6 or 7.

Remember, Eurogamer was the only site that gave Darkfall a 2.

Someone is afraid of backlash and knows no one reads anything on the web.

Meh, I read one review of Borderlands that said the game has no atmosphere, which of all the faults it does have that isn't one.  Just because someone publishes a review doesn't mean it's worth anything.

If that were the case, it didn't work.  Trying to download the Shale DLC, and the game makes you login to Bioware's Social Network site (which is apparently in beta).  I already have a Bioware/EA login in so I use that and it asks me to set up a profile and then click on the "next" button, at which point I get a "An Error Has Occurred Error creating social site account" message every time.  It's like their damn SWTOR beta signup.  Somebody get these guys someone who can make a functioning webpage (or maybe just a less retarded way for people to get their DLC).

I'm fairly certain that a Metascore does not adjust the aggregate score based on review text.  Furthermore, no one depending on advertising is going to give a bad rating to a Bioware game.

Also:

I am waiting to gauge the F13 reaction.  As if I am going to stop playing Borderlands.  What will likely happen is that I replace Last Remnant with Dragon Age in couple-time.

Yea, f13 is seriously foreign to that train of thought. :awesome_for_real:

Time to see if the lame Best Buys around here have it in stock.  Well, after my fun fun allergy shots.

What the fuck could you be allergic to in Arizona?  Maybe you meant "antivenin"?

Dirt or scorpions?

Chain-link fences and old people, obviously.

Fine, Electronic Arts. I'll just not fucking play your stupid fucking dragon age game. Try me again in 2030 when you've finally decided to treat your customers the same wherever they live.

Just picked this up for the pc at lunchtime.  Will give it first crack tonight.  In odd sort of juxtapostion, this clearly seems to be a PC game that got ported to consoles, whereas Borderlands was just the opposite.  It's getting so you really have to dig into the details on any multi-platform release to figure out which to get anymore.  From that Gamespot review it specifically mentions that the PC version is better in terms on character control, camera control especially, overall graphics, interface, and of course, the toolset.  But to offset that, apparently the console version is noticeably easier.  What a shockl  :oh_i_see:

And i have to say, the web game DA:Journeys was a nice touch.  Dont care so much about unlocking stuff for the real game with it, but as an introduction to the lore, concepts and skills, i liked it.  Turn based combat FTW!  Supposedly they are going to continue to release content for that as well.  There is marketing i can get behind.

You guys get Paradox games way before we do.  :grin:

I am pretty sure this is just a matter of some deal where their digital distribution release date has to match the retail store release date due to deals with their distributors. There are a lot of reasons that it might be difficult for them to get copies into brick and mortar stores on the exact same day worldwide.

Whatever you do don't play on the hardest difficulty setting. Story so far is pretty awesome, tons of lore everywhere that is interesting. The mage intro gives a heavy WH40k vibe (almost biting the entire style). Was tempted to reroll just to play another intro.

I have no idea what class to play.  I'm going into this game blind and just let inspiration come to me.

Finally got the Shale DLC downloading, even though on the site when you redeem the code it will say it doesn't work.

Got my "your copy is waiting for you" call from EB ten minutes ago. 2.5 hours left in my shift...

That eurogamer review is pretty iffy if you ask me.   It sounds like the author set himself up waiting for some god game and then got all pissy because Bioware used a gameworld that he didn't like.   He came off like some sort of Forgotten Realms sissy getting pissed because the GM wants to play Dragonlance.



When I entered all my codes the site said it didn't work and that it was accepted at the same time.

Yea the tactics thing looks straight out of FF12.   They even have a skill that lets you open more tactics slots.   I haven't fiddled with it on the PC version because you don't really let the AI do anything in important fights.  It's very handy for the more normal fights though so I probably fiddle with it once I get more skills/abilities that need to be setup.

I still havn't decided to download this off of steam or buy it from the store on the way home.  Hmmm.

Hahaha, console gamers are the 1980's-USA to PC gamers' 1980's-Japan.

Didn't we just do this with Gearbox/2K/Borderlands?

That sentence is painful.

Before I pick this up, how stable is it? Any big issues? I'm barely above min spec, so I'd hate to find "There's a patch coming that will fix XYZ" and have to struggle with some weird bug or search the 'net for work-arounds.

What are the specific differences between the 360 and PC versions?

I'm not upgrading my PC to play this, although I've toyed with getting it for the 360.

omg tactical view

:heart:

I bought this title and installed it, only to get a 'failed to auhtneticate cd' or some bullshit anytime I play it. Customer Service is the standard launch day swamped right now, so I haven't heard back from them.

"Remove your characters armor for now"

uhhh ok

Welcome to

Dragon Age: XXXTREME CAMEL TOE

10 minutes in, elves are slaves and there's already been an 'elf eating' joke.

Pretty sure I wrote this game.

I might get this from Steam at some point.  I'm tired of boxes, too.  Righ is in the process of tidying up his offices and the junk room and I really, Really, REALLY want to ditch all the boxes I have.  The amount is just incredible to me.  We have 16 year old games from the UK that we don't even have a console for anymore, like the CD32 and PS1.  We have old Amiga games.  Did I really bring CD32 games to the US with me?  Maybe I should dig harder and I'll find the console!  I have copies of games that I never even took out of the mailing packages!  What the fuck is wrong with me?  I think I don't realise because I just toss things in that room and never actually go in.  Or even look.  If I don't see it, I guess it doesn't exist?  Anyway, this time they'll all really make it to the trash.  

Mostly i think the biggest one is the controls and camera view.  Just browsing around, i found these posts which seem to sum it up rather well.


If you can, get the PC version.

This game really really badly wants me to join the Grey Warden.

I'm sorry game, but I can't let the Darkspawn rape and pillage without my strict sayso.

Let me make sure I understand this game, just to be sure I'm not missing out - It's like a story-heavy forced-grouping MMO with standard autoattack/special combat, but it's single player, so you're grouping with NPCs that require you to routinely pause the game to micromanage. And it's done in Shitty Brown Realism style. Am I missing anything?

It's just Baldur's Gate. You either like it or you don't.

-

The Blood Engine in this game seems like it took more work than the lipsync engine.

This also begs for a sequel

Dragon Age 2:  the Moose Knuckle Empire.

You're missing that this game has the worst case of verbal diarrea the gaming community has ever seen. It's like the writers were paid per word. It's just obnoxiously verbose to a level I honestly can't quite stand.

It's KOTOR with a Baldur's Gate-style tactical view with elves replacing Jedi.  As Schild said, either you like or you don't.  I've been waiting for another pause/queue combat system forever.

Good idea to turn dialog text on unless you want to spend 30 mins of every hour listening to fuckers talk.

First thing I've did, before even starting the game.

These people just will not shut up.

You know, I said that when


wouldn't shut the hell up and now I've gotten to


and it's been nonstop talk talk talk talk

I swear to god, Kojima must be playing this and be all "OH THIS IS WHAT I SOUND LIKE, I'm... a DOUCHE"

The Codex seems like a cool idea, but after listening to NPCs talk for 30 minutes I just can't bring myself to delve more into the lore by reading it.

The human noble prologue is le awesome. Of course I'm a sucker for medieval settings, so that might be it too.

The tactical/exploratory view transition is great. It's like NWN without the suck.

Wow. Suddenly not very interested. I really hate reading anything in games these days. Like, anything. Okay, maybe three or four words per hour. Maybe Dragon Age is just Not For Me. Are there any choices like "Skip to the end, how do I kill it"? Fallout 3 had those, and I loved 'em for it.

You can just press escape when you finish reading or if you don't give a shit. Story seems interesting enough, other than the fact the game probably has more text than "The Writer's Cut of War & Peace."

The Magi prologue was likewise awesome. Unique items get their own codex entry hooray! Yeah, just read then hit esc or you wont last very long.

OH, I'm quite sure he knew exactly what he was doing.

It's Baldur's Gate with a more Mass Effect story presentation.  Wordy motherfuckers the lot of them.  I love it.  Others will not. My old college roommate would hate this shit.

The code redemption was fucking tiresome.  EA.com account crap is absolutely horrible.

Not sure why I picked rogue.  Always a bit squishy at the start.

edit: I must stay, the system performance of this game is beautiful.  I meet recommended specs and it runs like a dream.

The system performance is amazing, yes.

Also, there are some places where wordy is OK. However, the quartermaster will even bother you, I'd wager.

More or less wordy than Planescape: Torment?

More.

Somehow.

 :heart: FUCKING YAY  :heart:

Ehhhh. I always feel like I'm breaking things by ESC-ing out of dialog.

Ha.  After the crap I took in the SWTOR thread because I said that having to listen to every bit of dialogue be spoken would be sheer horror I am loving the reactions here.

Is it like Mass Effect where if I've already read what they're currently saying for that line I can just press a button and they'll get to their next statement?  Because that worked pretty well and didn't fill me with rage.

Yea it has a shitload of talking.  They just talk and talk and talk.   You'll walk up to a generic named guard and he'll spew out a mini novel about why he's standing there doing nothing.  I love talking and even I thought they overdid it a bit at the first area you go to after you finish your origin act.   Most of it was back story stuff though.   It felt like they created this huge world with tons of back story and they are trying to hard to get it all out there right away.

In this respect it almost feels like they went a little overboard with text because they are trying to create a new valuable IP.    The last couple sections I've gone through have had normal respectable amounts of talking.  I'm thinking that with a lot of backstory out of the way it all might be toned down now.

You can easily just skip through the talking though.  You just read the text or skim it then hit esc and it'll switch to the next part.  Plus just because generic guards have whole mini novels doesn't mean you even need to bother talking to them.   They are just sort of there if you feel like it.

Having to wait for bodies to decide they have loot on them is more annoying than the talking.

So is this game just as sandbox'ish as BG?  With a bazillion area's and side quests to go do that have nothing to do with the main story?


God damnit, I was kind of hoping this game would be horrible so I wouldn't have yet another god damn game to buy  :awesome_for_real:

You should maybe try to match up and see if the people complaining about it here are the same ones who liked it in SWTOR before you laugh too hard.

Well I managed to get it installed on my roomate's comp and have been toying around with it. Fuckin fun. I liked the small touch of having my warrior be awaken in the middle of the night with him not wearing his full plate to bed.

As it turns out the authentication problems I am having have something to do with the secuROM on it clashing with my CD drive. Any advice on how to get around that? Thanks.

Yes.


There's absolutely no reason not to buy this now if you haven't already. This is going to be PRIME, DOUBLE PRIME GOTY-Box with all the DLC material for $39.99 (because you just know it'll take forever for the price to have a meaningful drop, blame COD4).

Note about Enchanter's Shoes:

Hmm, I could swear I just heard Claudia Black's voice.   :heart: :heart: :heart:

Just got home for voting and I'm installing.  Can't wait!

Oh and I have to celebrate my birthday with the woman.  Good thing she goes to bed at 10am.  No Sleep!  I bought the box on this one.  I didn't want to wait for steam to d/l it.

Happy b-day, and ya Claudia Black is a main character. Im also pretty sure I heard Cpt Janeway.

I don't think anyone here is complaining about voice acting.   Just that there is almost too much text.   Spoken dialogue is easily skippable.

Oh, the voice acting is fine.

If you're trying to decide between PC and PS3 you should just do what I did.  Pre-order the PS3 version, then forget you ordered it and get the steam version too.  Then you have the best of both worlds. :oh_i_see:

The city elf prologue is also le awesome.

Yes.

The elves in this game are awesome. None of this emo "oh, our people are downtrodden" bullshit for me, I AM COVERED WITH HUMAN BLOOD, WHAT DO YOU SAY NOW, HUH?

(quite literally)

I also like how every time I've tried to talk my way out of a fight I wind up killing everyone anyway. Really, I'm NOT a psychopathic murderer! OK, maybe a little. Those sex-crazed humans made me do it.

Quite literally, the rest of them are SLAVES. I look forward to being a slave elf on the next playthrough. Probably as a rogue, again.

Which is, you know, how it should be.

The game does a good job of making you feel like a serial killer, but I HATE being forced to choose a side, even if it ends up being temporary. Also, does this whole thing remind you a lot of The Witcher? Or anyone for that matter. I'm getting serious Witcher vibes.

Yes, it's very Witchery. Not at all a bad thing.

Hot female dwarves in the spoiler (nws...?)

Just a short way in and im already having a tough time picking spells.  Gah!

Really want to try the "turn your enemy into a short fused bomb" but may wait until i get at least 1 meat shield to hide behind.

And for those of you who played NWN1 and 2, this is pretty clearly a better version of that, just single player.

The settings are quite similar, yeah. Which I'm sure will lead to some ZOMG WITCHER RIPOFF posts on forums across the internet, although there's probably not much to that given how long DA has been in the works.

Wasn't The Witcher in development hell for years also?

More like short freaky human with gorilla arms.

(http://www.allsinai.info/pictures/camelfoot.gif)

But can she flatten steel with her thighs?

Not sure. Unless someone at Bioware speaks Polish I think we can safely assume its not a case of actual ripoff though - the Witcher books are pretty old (from the early-mid 90s I think) but weren't translated to English until recently. DA has been in development for what, over 5 years? It was announced in 2004 or so.

EDIT: On the other hand, it occurs to me that CD Projekt licensed the NWN engine from Bioware for The Witcher, so there might have been at least some cross-pollination of ideas at some point there.

hahahahahahahahaha

Ingmar is the kind of man who talks to NPC guards five times JUST IN CASE they only give a quest or lore nugget on that fifth try. It's cute unless you're playing co-op with him.

I'm here with my human family and thinking... 'one of these things is not like the other, one of these things just isn't the same...'  'Do you people not realize that I have killed your son and taken his place?'

All the talking makes me think Bioware might be able to pull off their SWTOR shit.

Jesus christ, I am eating this dwarf noble storyline shit up.

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Remember how I said the installer for the DA character creator crashed when I tried to run it? The the program itself, but the installer?

Yeah. That again.  :angryfist:

So... I have all this crap listed as "Downloaded." in DLC and it's not doing anything.

Am I missing something or are their servers made of fail?

Both of my DLC is in game after downloading. I believe it requires a restart of the game.

Ach!  Look at the kegs on tha' one!

Their content servers seem to be chugging hard. I've been watching Shale and the Grey Keep download for awhile now.

I LOVE THIS GAME and all the endless dialog is awesome!  :awesome_for_real:

I think the key is, it doesn't feel like I'm required to go through it all. Most games present a list of Questions and Answers that you have to slog through. This lets you take part in actual goddamn conversations.

And it runs great and looks great on my average machine.  :grin:

The game does have random encounters.  I read that from a bioware guy on DA: Origins General forum.

Gah!

I hate this game.

I started with the City Elf and it's fucking awesome.  I get through to the castle as a rogue.  I quit.  I want to sword and board.

Restart as a warrior.  Get a little farther.  I see so many shiny boxes I can't open.

I can't decide how to build my character.

God damnit.  I'm frozen in choices.

This game is fucking great.  I won't have to play this all week.  meh.

Awesome.  I am stilll waiting for my copy from Amazon.  Hopefully I will get it tomorrow. I am jealous though.  In a way though I am really glad I decided to get it the traditional way.  The steam folks seem to be  having no shortage of problems.  

Getting a few random CTDs here and there.   This is truly a great PC RPG.  :awesome_for_real:

Minor spoiler:

Dwarf Noble:

Stripping your character of items as part of the story? Neat.

Stripping your character of pre-order/CE/DLC items and giving you no way to get them back?  Not so neat...

(It does turn out that you can disable the bonus content, force load a game, save, exit, reenable the content, and reload your game and you'll get most (but not all) of what you should back.  However, this also is highly exploitable. :(  (Yes, I know, it's a single player game, and exploits don't really matter...))

Shame they let this slip through in what's been an otherwise near perfect experience so far...

Guess it's a good thing that I haven't gotten my DLC to install yet :awesome_for_real:.

Yeah that made me go  :oh_i_see: a bit re: preorder items on the dwarf noble.

On the other hand, holy shit the dwarves in this game are awesome.  :awesome_for_real:

What if you have to reinstall the game? Can you get the items again?

Yea they are tied to your ea/bioware account.   Dunno how it works on consoles though.

The game got much less interesting after they were all


They should make a dwarven political court RPG. Fuck saving the world.

That's how I assumed it'd work. It's strange though that you can't just get them back again after losing them as a dwarf noble.

Holy crap this is the most linear game I've played. Still surpassingly awesome, but also surpassingly on railroads. Does it open up more later?

I am guessing until you get  in your party that it is still effectively the tutorial. After that you're told "hey, here's 6 things you need to do, go have fun!"

I'm going to have to roll up a dwarf now, aren't I. I did a sword-and-shield human fighter that doesn't really do enough damage, and a elf rogue that falls over and dies a lot, so maybe a dwarf swinging a 2-hander is about my speed, anyway.

Sweet, the euro Steam version gets an earlier unlock at midnight tonight. It pays to whine! :heart:

Nice. I'm almost there I think.

How come, my steam says :

Available: 7 November 2009
This game will unlock in approximately 2 days and 14 hours

I have no idea, mine said approximately 15 hours when I left for work today.

Says 12 hours on steampowered.com now, browsing from Norway

I'm from Finland, so maybe it's a nordic thing. 

Swiss are screwed? wtf  :uhrr:

I have it on authority that a Swiss once kicked Gabe Newell's dog.

Unlike you elitist pricks I got the 360 version because I was worried about performance on my laptop.  First impressions are
-Tons of dialogue, been covered.  Slightly annoyed my hero never talks, Shep did in ME.
-Yeah loot delay on mobs is another annoyance.
-Graphics are serviceable but I feel a step back from ME.  Can you tell which is my hero?  Hint, he's the one in brown!  :awesome_for_real:
-Elf Mage storyline is good, help help I'm being repressed!  I've decided that I'm going to liberate the elves!
-Big relief; In the 360 you can play as every hero in your party and issue them separate commands.  Of course you can also
  give them default scripted actions.  Maybe not the same amount of tactical control in the PC version, but I'm very pleased.
-Combat is easy (so far!) in Normal mode.  But there's the option to increase it, will try that tonight.  

Overall I'm pleased with the game, especially the story.  

So how does it work on moving the hero's around?   Is there no click to move at all?  You have to move every hero manually and can't move two at the same time I'm guessing?


The first act is like that but then eventually it's lets you just go do whatever.

I think im going to completely turn off the party AI and micromanage every fight to death. I'm old skool baby!

Not that the AI is bad but (minor)
So far, Frost, Electric bolt and cone AOE,Weakness, and Arcane bolt for combat, plus shield and heal spells (which is basically only for tough in combat fights; love the fact that there's really no downtime due to health mana regen out of combat).

The friendly fire part can be so worth it.  Hell, i've even won a fights where the enemy mage fireballed his own troops to death to get at my crew.  Silly spawn.

Try this Storm:

 right click the disc in my computer then "explore" > right click setup.exe or install.exe > run as admin

I dropped the AI from the get go, except for completely easy encounters.  And even then, I tend to micromanage.


I have no mage.  Do they give you a mage after

I had no problems with Steam, but I did have problems with registering on the EA social network for a while.  It would give me an error, but not a clue to as what it was.  Secondly, I wasn't sure which retail keys to use and where (steam gave me 3 or 4 keys) - just had to trial and error it.  Finally got registered, and had no problems after that.  PC performance is smooth on the highest settings for me and it looks quite a bit better at higher resolutions.

Started the sword and board fighter and found the initial story-line to be excellent.  I have no problem with my character not talking and not being voiced like in Mass Effect - it seemed to speed-up the dialogue while not completely cutting out immersion.  I did find the AI to be a bit wonky, but would have to play more than I did to make any judgment.  I guess if you are going to micromanage the hell out of it, then tactic slots may be of little use?

Maybe I'll make an archer class.  Hmmm.

Mkay, trying to pick a class without reading into spoilers too much.

Thoughts:
- Mages look like a more active playstyle than the others, which would make it well fit for a PC (+1 for Mage)
- I hear mages are strong. I like my PC to be the strongest character (+1 for Mage)
- From what I understand of game mechanics, mages are also healers. Playing healbot in a single player game? Meh. (-1 for Mage)
- From the characters described on the homepage, the only two mage-types appear to be a shapeshifter (awesome, but not quite a nuker/healer?) and an old goody-two-shoes hag that I don't want in my party. Seems like there's a need for a kick ass mage in there. (+1 for Mage)
- Like everyone else, I prefer wearing some of the cool armor and bad ass swords I find instead of standing around in a dress the whole game (-1 for Mage)

I'm leaning slightly to that end right now, but a stiff breeze would make me change. Help me choose!

Eh? Really? 25 years of RPGs and you're having trouble picking between the three most traditional classes in existence?

I'm failing to see the problem.

Here: It doesn't matter what you pick because Bioware fills out your party within 2 hours.

Pick a backstory you want, because some of the intro/tutorials are pretty fun.

25 years of RPGs and I have yet to encounter one where picking my class wasn't a massive dilemma (Assuming I had an option).

Same here. I went with an elf Mage.

Pick a Mage. Try and grab the Arcane Warrior specialisation. This will allow you to substitute Magic for Strength when it comes to armour and weapon requisites. Focus on magic that isn't healing (ie, most of it).

Walk around in heavy armour with a two handed sword and beat the shit out of people while also setting them on fire.

(For extra fun, take Blood Mage later on, allowing you to heal, but only yourself.)

I have this quandry in every game.  Sometimes it's a pretty paralyzing choice and in rare occasions can affect my enjoyment of the game.

Usually in this type of I gravitate towards a sword/board warrior, since it's easiest to lead from the front, and I hate being the squishy one.  But for whatever reason, I picked a rogue.  Having fun so far, but I find my party as a whole, including whom I've chosen to tank, to be a little fragile.   In battle I tend to switch between micromanaging the mage or rogue.  The first mage you get has a ton of crowd control options, which can really decide a lot of those early swarmy encounters.

So I went with a city elf chick. Within ten minutes of starting, a gang of human nobles are out to rape me and my girlfriends. After about one hour of reducing the human population in the castle, my wedding dress now a motley red color, and my fiance I never liked conveniently eviscerated, I'm ready to go off and save the world.

Decided the duel weild rogue would be a fun main, fits my RPG playstyle. I was especially excited to see a talent option that lets me apply my cunning mod as a damage bonus instead of strength. Guess I'll be giving that dragon armor to my meatshield brave templar guy.

I thought all chars received the armor just upon creation? So grats on 5g to you sir!

Same here (2.5 days until unlock), so hungary - and possibly continental europe - is screwed too. I think it's because the hungarian team beat the Bioware team during the pre-launch event, or something.

(otoh the VPN trick for borderlands will probably work here too -- preload, get a proxy with a US ip, restart steam, decrypt, start game, exit, switch steam to offline mode, disconnect from proxy, profit)

Am seeing the same thing. Between this and charging through the nose i'm guessing Valve isn't really interested in having market in Europe. (for comparison d2d sells the same regular edition for something like $23 less and unlocks at 12 am of November 6th)

After the annoyance of getting DLC I'm off to the races. I played about 7 hours last night and have hit the point where the game world truly opens up. I'm one of those dorks who is doing a ton of talking to my NPCs and stuff so it's really slowing me down. On the other hand, I'm just past the intro stuff and Morrigan is already making eyes at me. But, considering I managed to seduce an Elven lady in waiting during my Human Noble opening I guess I'm just a male slut.

I also think one of my party members might be homosexual or at least bi. It's not a bad thing at all it just surprised me. Bioware tends to shy away from male homosexuals.


BTW, I am loving that NPCs have dialogue between themselves sort of like they did in Baldur's Gate but without pausing the action. I have been known to stop what I'm doing and listen to them especially when Morrigan is verbally sparring with someone. My current party is Leliana, Morrigan and Alistair but I might swap out Stenn for Alistair since he looks quite powerful.

Edit: I chose a warrior as my main and my major issue is what combat style will I use? I'm leaning sword and board with maybe some two hand in there but I also sunk two talent points into dual wielding. *sigh*

Yeah, I tried that. I even tried copying all the files to my HD and runnning setup from there, "just in case." No dice. Still waiting to hear back from EA Tech Support.


Yes.

I went with a human noble warrior.  Dropped the shield instantly, pumped up the Dex a bit to equal out the strength, and grabbed me a nice offhand.  Scalemail and Dual Wielding for the win.

Sold. Solves the conundrum of having users of all major weapon types too. One nuker/arcane warrior with 2h, one tank with sword/board, one rogue with dual wield/archery, one healer/controller with staff.

I'm probably overthinking this, but that's half the fun of new RPGs.

This game reminds me of Mass Effect in one way: I'm already planning out what other characters to play. I suspect I'll play a female city elf rogue since the description gives me a very "Bride from Kill Bill" feeling.

So, the day 1 DLC content.  Worth getting the Deluxe edition for?  Or not really anything interesting in the grand scheme of things?

Damn you people and your "this game is fun" crap!  :drill:

Now I have to get a shower and leave the house to go buy this somewhere.
Wife leaves town tomorrow for a weekend with the girls, so I will spend it in an old fashioned game fest of pizza, coke and no sleeping or showering for three days.

Edit:

And I also have Murgos' question....si the deluxe edition worth the extra money?
Also do we get anything for playing the Dragon Age: Journeys game? Added content or items to the Origins game? Or is it just marketing fluff?

I think the Warden's Keep is the cheaper DLC and the other two were included with the regular box purchase.  I don't know what else the deluxe version offers, but it seems to be a bit of time before I get any mileage out of the DLC myself.

I thought the price difference was worth the deluxe edition, but I was also a pre-order so it was bonus on top of the bonus content. Even without pre-order stuff though, the Stone Keep costs almost as much to buy separately as it does to buy the deluxe edition iirc, then you get items in addition. So you may as well get it. After 1 night of play with this game, I don't think I'll be regretting this purchase either fwiw.

As for DA:Journeys, it does give some in game content. There is Embril's Many Pockets (belt), Helm of the Deep (helm), and Amulet of the War Mage (amulet). It doesn't take too long, especially if you get a good weapon from the start (vendor's loot changes each time you zone, but isn't randomly created).

Edit: updated with DA:J items.

Biggest flaw beyond the absolutely fucking retarded AI (regardless of how you tweek it) is the inconsistency in difficulty and item "levels". Killing these revenants that literally took 15+ minutes of running away from only to find out the gear they drop is absolutely fucking impossible to use for at least 3-4 levels of stacking strength/dex, something I had already invested heavily in throughout every level. There is no way it would even be possible to kill these guys on anything beyond normal difficulty. And then it required kiting around the area so I could get my guys to res a few times.

Keep reading all this stuff about how the game is balanced around hardest difficulty, bullshit.

Lum, did you get that misprint pricing from Steam?

I get a little "A Game of Thrones" off of the human noble intro.

Also, the delay before a corpse gives loot is driving me up the frickin wall.  :angryfist:

From what I remember reading, they have stated that it is possible to run in to fights that are tougher than you. Apparently if you leave, go do something else to level up a bit, and then come back - the things that gave you trouble will not scale up, thus should be easier to kill. Plus, you'll probably have the stats to use those drops by then.

Yep, had to do that in the Wilds. Normal difficulty is just right for me at the moment, Hard looks like it would just be cockstabbingly frustrating.

I've only had one boss fight so far (at the end of the Human Noble tutorial) but I replayed it a couple of times simply because it was so damned cool.

Oh and:

Time played: 9 hours 21 minutes 13 seconds
Percent of game completed: 6%
Percent of world explored: 10%

 :drill:

"Unlocks in 2 days and 8 hours".

They hate the whole of middle Europe it seems.

Its slightly more accurate to say their lawyers hate you. 

Yeah I figured but some places have already gotten "locked" after Ive completed the main series of tasks. So I have no clue what I can return to and what is a one shot deal. And even then these place cant be directly warped to, so you gotta walk through an empty lowbie area to even get back. Also a few of those items aren't being dropped by bad asses, they are found like anything else, they are just vastly out of league of the player level the area that drops them is. I got a bow like 5 levels ago that is still 10 points of dex above the pure dex rogue characters range. The whole randomness of difficulty seems to be everywhere, you can do 90% of an area on hard with some effort but easily doable, then enter the next room that isn't exceptional (no named dudes,no legendary drops, usually even the same types of guys) that is not possible. You must adjust difficulty to get passed that one random room and then everything scales back to normal. Strangely its not even the boss fights. Its a random door that triggers 20 guys in every direction that pretty much instantly nullifies any strategy.

/facepalm


Rolled an Elf Mage. Damn the Dwarves for not being able to use Magic.

What are my romance options as a female character?

Alistair, Zevran, and Liliana.

Male options are Liliana, Morrigan, and Zevran

Anyone else not have Warden's Keep available to download? I redeemed codes for the Blood Armor and Shale but there was no option to purchase Warden's Keep anywhere.

Pretty sure you can, I also didn't notice it until after the battle. If you notice a fight seems exceptionally stacked looked around, sometimes ya get lucky and theres a lever/ballista whatever to help out. Seems like a pretty common gimmick.

You sure? I'm playing a female and I'm getting lots of hearts on Morrigan.

No, but I'm going by the online Prima thingy. It says Morrigan is male only. They could certainly be wrong.

I would rather be able to romance Alistair. Zevran's kind of annoying.  Meh. That, and he's kind of the cliche choice.

And Liliana for the female/female pairing, really? Huh, I would have put money on Morrigan.



Try talking to the guy in the party camp. Levi Dryden or whatever; he should give you the option of buying/downloading it. Its where I got mine, at least.

For those of you who can't get Warden's Keep or your DLC won't move to install do this:

If you are on Win7/Vista

1) Go to the game folder and give the launcher exe admin rights.
2) Start the launcher and goto the game config and then repair and click clear download cache.
3) Save your config.
4) Launch the game and check to see that your DLC is installing.   Warden's Keep should be available now too.

If that doesn't work make sure you have the Dragon Age Updater Service running.

Is there some DLC for extra quickbars or am I overlooking the toggle? The higher leveled spell effects are insanely awesome.

I love Tempest. :drill: The whole lightning line is pretty nice, really. 

I would kill for more hotbars. Not a big issues on melee characters, but I'm out of room on my Mage.

FFFUUUUUU it's time but it's not opening on Steammmmmmm...:uhrr:

Edit: now it's finally decrypting the files. Only took me two restarts to get that going.

Grab the end of the quickbar and drag it to the right/left. You can get a longer row that way at least.

Based on the first 5-6 hours, this is the best RPG I've played in as long as I can remember.

I notice everybody is talking about how much they love their specific class/race's story.  How much effect does your race/class have on the overall game play and story?  High re-playability?  Baulders gate was cool and all, but the story of the game didn't change at all except for the very end.

Can't imagine a lot of the mage related stuff working if you didn't start as a mage. Unrelated question, is becoming a Gray Warden unavoidable?

All paths lead to becoming a Gray Warden.

That was kind of a let-down.

Grey Wardens: Would you like to join us?

1. Definitely!
2. I suppose so.
3. Why not?
4. Sure.

The one problem I have with the tactics engine is the "defensive" AI setting is fubared. There's a bug where if one of your squishies is being attacked your defensive guy will peel off and run towards the squishy. The problem is that the AI will do that with RANGED attacks on your squishies as well. So if my mage is plinked by an arrow my tank will peel off and get backstabbed by 2 or 3 monsters up front while he tries to valiantly defend my mage from arrows.  :tantrum:

My profile and screenshots won't upload to that flabbergasted website :( I want to make an AO collection of screenshots with salty language but I can't.

He needs to be next to the mage in order to dramatically leap in front of projectiles. "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" is optional.

Hm, I hit level 7, wouldn't let me become a Duelist. Said it wasn't unlocked.

Oh, I need to find a trainer. RIGHT.

D&D4ed is more streamlined than some of this stuff.

I've taken other screenshots besides these (http://social.bioware.com/playerprofile.php?game=dragonage1_pc&nid=2250319462&display=screenshots), so I imagine it's just the automatic ones.

And the profile does take a bit of time to update, but all my stuff was up-to-date when I got up today.