Dragon Age

[tmp]

All this "oh no the structure is like their other games" complaining is ridiculous.

The complains about the structure specifically can be a bit silly, yeah. They basically structure their games with a semi-sandbox for the meat part of it rather than the rigid "you must do your shit in the exact order we tell you" alternative; don't know why it even draws attention or is some sort of "a-ha!" revelation when it happens in more than one title.

edit: The complaints about the cliched settings i can see where these could come from. But fortunately they did manage to put interesting enough spin on enough things to make the end result feel almost fresh and fun to play with.

[Riggswolfe]

but the game setting is quite unique

D&D set in Western Europe?

Don't be silly. I know it's cool to hate on anything that isn't Demon Souls but the setting is quite unique.

Elves: 1930s Jews instead of the 60's flower children they're usually presented as. In fact, all it will take is one evil King and they could easily have a fantasy Auschwitz on their hands.

Dwarves: Honor? A farce. They pretend to have honor but it's mostly just talk. Their society is dying because it is so rigid that they don't care and their politics is more "A Game of Thrones" than anything else.

Humans: Humans are pretty much humans whatever you do, though the society in Ferelden isn't feudal, it's more like a republic with nobles in place of a senate.

The Blight? Well, the blight is just reskinned orcs, I'll give you that.

Finally, religion. Most fantasy games assume real gods and goddesses complete with priests having powers. This game does not. Priests don't have powers and there are actually atheists and presumably agnostics in this world. No one really knows if there ever was a Maker or the Old Gods of the elves. The dwarves go by a Chinese ancestor worship type of system rather than a real religion anyway.

[schild]

Dude, look, I like the setting. I like the game. The only thing that kept it from being GOTY - the major thing - was the terrible story and the fact it really really is 3D Baldur's Gate and not as good as Baldur's Gate 2.

But don't kid yourself, I'm not being silly. It's fucking Europe, Germany and France. Period.

[Riggswolfe]

Dude, look, I like the setting. I like the game. The only thing that kept it from being GOTY - the major thing - was the terrible story and the fact it really really is 3D Baldur's Gate and not as good as Baldur's Gate 2.

But don't kid yourself, I'm not being silly. It's fucking Europe, Germany and France. Period.

Yeah, I'll agree that the story isn't terribly inspired and I think it's because of the villain to be honest. If this Architect turns out interesting we could find ourselves in a situation where the expansion has a better story than the main game very similiar to NWN. Baldur's Gate 2 definitely had a better villian and story-line. I think having the arch-demon and the blight be basically mindless monsters was a mistake. Look at Saren in Mass Effect. He had tons of personality and it made the game better IMO.

Orlais is clearly a fantasy version of France, I'll give you that. I'm guessing you're going with Ferelden as fantasy Germany? I can somewhat see it, though the Jewelves are treated the same way across the continent from what I understand.

[schild]

Not enough wholesale slaughter to call them Jewelves. More like early 1900s Blackelves.

Mass Effect was the better game, imo. Even though it was just fantasy Baldur's Gate 2 with terrible sidemissions.

[Ingmar]

Dude, look, I like the setting. I like the game. The only thing that kept it from being GOTY - the major thing - was the terrible story and the fact it really really is 3D Baldur's Gate and not as good as Baldur's Gate 2.

But don't kid yourself, I'm not being silly. It's fucking Europe, Germany and France. Period.

Yeah, I'll agree that the story isn't terribly inspired and I think it's because of the villain to be honest. If this Architect turns out interesting we could find ourselves in a situation where the expansion has a better story than the main game very similiar to NWN. Baldur's Gate 2 definitely had a better villian and story-line. I think having the arch-demon and the blight be basically mindless monsters was a mistake. Look at Saren in Mass Effect. He had tons of personality and it made the game better IMO.

Orlais is clearly a fantasy version of France, I'll give you that. I'm guessing you're going with Ferelden as fantasy Germany? I can somewhat see it, though the Jewelves are treated the same way across the continent from what I understand.

Saren is the Loghain equivalent, though. The 'archdemon' in Mass Effect would be Sovereign, who really has barely more lines than the archdemon in DA.

I don't think the archdemon being a 'force' more than a character is a big problem, because the core story in this game is really the Loghain one. The archdemon stuff is just the capstone, where you get to see the fruits of your efforts getting people together, deploying your forces in those fights etc.

[tmp]

Elves: 1930s Jews instead of the 60's flower children they're usually presented as. In fact, all it will take is one evil King and they could easily have a fantasy Auschwitz on their hands.

[Riggswolfe]

Not enough wholesale slaughter to call them Jewelves. More like early 1900s Blackelves.

Mass Effect was the better game, imo. Even though it was just fantasy Baldur's Gate 2 with terrible sidemissions.

I suppose I should preface it with pre-WWII. Not during the actual "Final Solution" but early on when the Jews were put into ghettos and losing rights but weren't quite on the trains yet. That is how the elves feel to me. I'm basing this mostly on my experiences in the city elf origin as well as alot of comments made in-game and the codex.

Mass Effect was definitely a better game and holds my personal record for most times I've replayed a game. (Not counting multiplayer stuff like Diablo 2 on Battle.net) I'm not sure I'd called it BG2 but that's not really important.

[Sky]

Wait...schild is an elf?

[Riggswolfe]

Saren is the Loghain equivalent, though. The 'archdemon' in Mass Effect would be Sovereign, who really has barely more lines than the archdemon in DA.

I don't think the archdemon being a 'force' more than a character is a big problem, because the core story in this game is really the Loghain one. The archdemon stuff is just the capstone, where you get to see the fruits of your efforts getting people together, deploying your forces in those fights etc.

Yeah, in a way I guess. One thing I noticed, especially in my Human Noble playthrough is that I was much more interested in killing/stopping Loghain than in dealing with the Blight. In fact


Oddly, I feel that Loghain isn't a true villain, just misguided and filled with hatred of the Orlais to the level of an obsessed zealot. In fact...

[stray]

Not enough wholesale slaughter to call them Jewelves. More like early 1900s Blackelves.

Mass Effect was the better game, imo. Even though it was just fantasy Baldur's Gate 2 with terrible sidemissions.

I suppose I should preface it with pre-WWII. Not during the actual "Final Solution" but early on when the Jews were put into ghettos and losing rights but weren't quite on the trains yet. That is how the elves feel to me. I'm basing this mostly on my experiences in the city elf origin as well as alot of comments made in-game and the codex.

Mass Effect was definitely a better game and holds my personal record for most times I've replayed a game. (Not counting multiplayer stuff like Diablo 2 on Battle.net) I'm not sure I'd called it BG2 but that's not really important.

Mass Effect had better gameplay, but I like the fantasy setting/story here.. and the party members. I look forward to them adding more of the "flourishes" from Dragon Age to Mass Effect though. There's a shitload more to talk about with your party members in Dragon Age - not to mention the funny little things like the banter between them as you're walking around. Mass Effect felt quiet and lonely in comparison.

[Riggswolfe]

Mass Effect had better gameplay, but I like the fantasy setting/story here.. and the party members. I look forward to them adding more of the "flourishes" from Dragon Age to Mass Effect though. There's a shitload more to talk about with your party members in Dragon Age - not to mention the funny little things like the banter between them as you're walking around. Mass Effect felt quiet and lonely in comparison.

Yeah, I'm actually one of those weird people who liked the long elevators because it meant I got to listen to my party banter somewhat. One of my friends found a trigger spot for the party banter in DA and he basically wallked back and forth over it until he'd heard most of the banter from the NPCs he liked.

[schild]

I loved the elevators when there WAS banter.

Of course, now they've been replaced with blood splotches on a map without banter with what is probably the weakest part of the game - random events.

[Riggswolfe]

I loved the elevators when there WAS banter.

Of course, now they've been replaced with blood splotches on a map without banter with what is probably the weakest part of the game - random events.

I don't mind the random encounters because it reminds me of Fallout!

[sidereal]

I don't mind them because most of them actually aren't that random.  At least, if you don't do much travel (I tend to completely finish an area before going somewhere else), probably >80% of them are based off of game events (Zevran, the dwarf merchant, then a battle after you get each faction to side with you, events based on sidequests you've just picked up, etc).  I guess if you travel a lot you might burn through those quick.  If it ever got near Final Fantasy levels of random cookie-cutter battle padding I'd be pissed off, but it doesn't.

[Riggswolfe]

I'm actually trying to get one of the encounters right now and it's kind of annoying. (Trying to get the meteor damnit!)

The only thing that gets old so far is that damn dwarf merchant. Hey, dipshit, Orzammar is back open now, leave me alone!

[tmp]

I'm actually trying to get one of the encounters right now and it's kind of annoying. (Trying to get the meteor damnit!)

That one only happens if you have the Warden't Keep enabled i'd figure? Of course if you do then nvm that 

[Slyfeind]

Oddly, I feel that Loghain isn't a true villain, just misguided and filled with hatred of the Orlais to the level of an obsessed zealot. In fact...

Yeah, I loved the way he was portrayed. He was a dick, but he wasn't a moustache-twirler.

[schild]

True Villain or not, you knew it the moment you saw him before he even opened his goddamn mouth. Just a terrible decision on the art direction for him. He might as well have been a fucking mustache twirler.

[Slyfeind]

Yeah but when he meets his fate, it's that much more interesting, because he looked like Teh Bad Guy. Then he comforts his daughter. It was a very cool subtle moment for him. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, because subtlety is so damn hard to pull off in games so most people don't even try. But it still worked for me.

[tmp]

Loghain would work quite better if they didn't insist on giving him the emo makeup. Kind of like Bhelen -- you can tell he's a manipulative, slick dick but it's not made cartoon-level obvious for the most part.

[Engels]

[stray]

I had no problem with Bhelen at all. He'll put an axe in some fucking cop who touches him. Not necessarily a villain. I'm not even sure that's "slick". Hardly subtle at least. Just brutal.. I loved that little scene. But pay attention to his politics, and you find that he's not a dick at all.

I almost didn't want to kill Loghaine either, but that was the moment Alistair stopped being a sandy vagina. He had some good scenes afterwards too.

[Ingmar]

and you find that he's not a dick at all

Done the dwarf noble intro? 

[stray]

Nope, unfortunately not! Been meaning to..

[tmp]

I had no problem with Bhelen at all. He'll put an axe in some fucking cop who touches him. Not necessarily a villain. I'm not even sure that's "slick". Hardly subtle at least. Just brutal.. I loved that little scene. But pay attention to his politics, and you find that he's not a dick at all.

The guy with axe is Bhelen's lackey i think, not Bhelen himself. All dwarves look the same to me Bhelen's dickery is in how he goes about his politics and he is pretty slick there, for a dwarf at least -- see how he goes about screwing Harrowmont in the Proving business for example, or ask him what to do about spoiler_dwarf if she doesn't support him.

[Azuredream]

I always found it interesting that in the epilogue if you side with Bhelen he ends up being a much more effective leader than Harrowmont given their two personalities.

[Ironwood]

I did the dwarf quests yesterday.  Finished it and Bhelen was instantly an arsehole.

You know what ?  I didn't care.  I've done this 'please side with two arseholes' thing so many times I just DIDN'T CARE.  Hell, it was only the creator of the anvil that got any emotional playtime with me.  That was a nice bit; even if the woman going mental was SOOOooooo fucking heavy handed.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I did the dwarf quests yesterday.  Finished it and Bhelen was instantly an arsehole.

You know what ?  I didn't care.  I've done this 'please side with two arseholes' thing so many times I just DIDN'T CARE.  Hell, it was only the creator of the anvil that got any emotional playtime with me.  That was a nice bit; even if the woman going mental was SOOOooooo fucking heavy handed.

I second this whole 'choose your side' bullshit got old. Hello I'd already done it with the elves and the werewolves...and the mages and the templars...in the end the choice of which dwarf seemed to matter even LESS. 

I think that's what annoys me about the game, you get the illusion of choices but they all add up to the same end result.

[BitWarrior]

I second this whole 'choose your side' bullshit got old. Hello I'd already done it with the elves and the werewolves...and the mages and the templars...in the end the choice of which dwarf seemed to matter even LESS. 

I think that's what annoys me about the game, you get the illusion of choices but they all add up to the same end result.

Alright, I'll bite. Let's pretend you're developing the game - the main plot is the player needs to collect an army to defend off the blight. What quests would you offer that would offer some degree of choice for the player to act on, but not so radical that you could permanently fuck up your character/game (ie: Oh, you pissed off these people and now they won't help you, you lose the war and game over)?

[Tebonas]

For me personally it was deeply satisfying to destroy Bhelen. I think it makes a difference if you did it as a Dwarven Noble or not.

I agree that Lakov that the modular setup of the game hurt the story somewhat, but that wasn't a particular problem with the dwarves, but with the underlying design philosophy. "Lets make it that we always can lose parts of the game we don't have time for" makes for sloppy narrative.

[Slyfeind]

I loved the elevators when there WAS banter.

Of course, now they've been replaced with blood splotches on a map without banter with what is probably the weakest part of the game - random events.

Oh wait whaat? ME had party banter as their loading screen? Why could they not do something like this in DA?! 

[schild]

I loved the elevators when there WAS banter.

Of course, now they've been replaced with blood splotches on a map without banter with what is probably the weakest part of the game - random events.

Oh wait whaat? ME had party banter as their loading screen? Why could they not do something like this in DA?!  

Because they had lots more banter when you were walking around this time?

[stray]

Yeah, it was barely there anyways. Sometimes it'd just be elevator music and some news blurb.

[Malakili]

I loved the elevators when there WAS banter.

Of course, now they've been replaced with blood splotches on a map without banter with what is probably the weakest part of the game - random events.

Oh wait whaat? ME had party banter as their loading screen? Why could they not do something like this in DA?!  

Because they had lots more banter when you were walking around this time?

Yeah, the load screens are definitely my least favorite part of the game, however, the banter when I'm walking around is pretty good.  In fact, when I hear some I usually stop and listen to it play out rather than take any actions that would interupt it.  Still, I tihnk they could have handled the travel/random encounters much better.