I9 is live

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I9 has gone live.

Overall, most complaints are about the new content rather than bugs / crashes. Lag is reported around the new 'must-be' areas (ie Universities, Consignment Houses) but overall things seem stable. Bugs do exist for some of the Invention Origin sets, but only in that they may not do what they say they do.

Prices in the Consignment Houses for new salvage / recipes are completely nuts, but that's to be expected until the system settles down.

It's going to take a while to shake out the effects of IOs on CoH/V gameplay and character development.

[Hutch]

Prices in the Consignment Houses for new salvage / recipes are completely nuts, but that's to be expected until the system settles down.

With my level 25 character, I ran a few missions tonight, and sold enough pieces of the Common invention salvage to make over 200k influence, which is a nice chunk of change at that level.
I had a few pieces still in the CH when I logged for the night, too.

If someone bids on an item you're selling, and their bid is higher than your asking price, you get the entire bid, not just what you asked for. So, to use an actual example from tonight, you can put up a piece of Iron for 20k, and if someone bids 55k, you get the 55k (minus the consignment fee).

The key, of course, is getting in now while the wealthy impulse buyers are causing demand spikes. I'm sure that in a month or so, the same piece of Iron will be worth more to a vendor than to the CH.

[Strazos]

Oh bleh, it works like FFXI? I find that sort of bidding system to be extremely time consuming, as I have to keep inching my bids up so I don't get ripped for more than I can tolerate.

[Shrike]

The bidding system is a royal pain the butt. I have/had a number of things probably worth a fair amount, but the hassle factor is enough to keep me away from the Black Market for now.

However, the drop rates have changed. TOs no longer drop post-20 (might be earlier, but from my 23 corruptor's viewpoint...). SO drops are now much more common much earlier than before. My fire/dark corruptor has been scraping to get by on nickle and dime SO upgrades. Tonight, she blew about 100k on SOs and another 70k+ on a couple of crafted enhancements. Not sure how well those will work out in the long run, but I've got one attack ability slated for experimenting with the new enhancements. The fundamental point was infamy is a lot easier to come by than it was last night (I struggled to buy 2xSOs last night; I had 5 in tonight and 20k infamy left over in one less hour of playtime).

I may have to indulge in some brutality tomorrow night to see how things are going post-30 and post-40.

One last thing I suspect will become more prevalent in the long run is less flitting from alt to alt. The invention system does add a lot more depth to slotting strategies. More fiddling on the same character instead of just switching off when one toon gets a bit tiresome.

[Strazos]

My high 30s Scrapper goes through FAR too much influence upgrading all those SOs. Like, 500k+, easily.

[Shrike]

I think influence/infamy is going to be in short supply for all characters in the later levels. Cryptic has several nasty influence sinks now in the game. Between inventions and base maintenance, the days of 9-10 figure amounts of influence/infamy are probably gone for active characters. Older character that are SG-less (like my 48 scrapper) have large pools of influence still laying about, but twinking and supporting inventions on lower level alts would eat through even 50-mil+ influence pools pretty quickly. Crafting badges will see to that. The CH/BM also supports cross-server influence transfers (though risky) to further vaccuum up those dusty piles of influence on inactive characters.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some adjustments to base maintenance costs. SG/VGs that rely on lower level characters to be in perma-SG mode migth start to feel the bite when these characters drop SG-mode to actually make money to craft in their 20s--right when influence and especially infamy are at their tightest. There's already some whining on the O-fficial boards about this after only one night. 

[Glazius]

Well, for characters that aren't max level, you can start making and slotting ordinary IOs "for life" at about level 25, when they're on par with SO power.

Slotting an IO instead of an SO at level 25 will cost about the same, but you won't have to buy a new 30/35/40/45/50 SO to replace the IO. Net gain? I like to think so.

--GF

[Trippy]

Some initial impressions. There's just way too much "stuff". Trying to figure out what recipes to get is going to be far more painful than planning powers. I'll probably just cancel, wait a month or two for the min/maxers to figure it all out, and then resubscribe. Not showing what recipes the Invention salvage items can be used in is a major major blunder.

[Glazius]

Some initial impressions. There's just way too much "stuff". Trying to figure out what recipes to get is going to be far more painful than planning powers. I'll probably just cancel, wait a month or two for the min/maxers to figure it all out, and then resubscribe. Not showing what recipes the Invention salvage items can be used in is a major major blunder.

You know they didn't nerf SOs and you can still buy and use them, right?

Other than that... could I get some slightly deeper impressions? Because you've got _me_ confused.

--GF

[Trippy]

Some initial impressions. There's just way too much "stuff". Trying to figure out what recipes to get is going to be far more painful than planning powers. I'll probably just cancel, wait a month or two for the min/maxers to figure it all out, and then resubscribe. Not showing what recipes the Invention salvage items can be used in is a major major blunder.

You know they didn't nerf SOs and you can still buy and use them, right?

Other than that... could I get some slightly deeper impressions? Because you've got _me_ confused.

--GF

Confused about what? So far I've only run through the tutorials, visited Wentworths and got overwhelmed and ran through one mission to see if any of my powers got nerfed.

Edit: And yes I know about SOs but my character is 50 so I already have all the level 50 SOs I need. The only way to improve my character now is to make IOs.

[Typhon]

I think I understand what Trippy is saying.  Here's how I feel.  The system is complex and the interface doesn't help remove the complexity.  I have to spend all my time out of the game figuring out what I want, then go to the game and hope I get access to the stuff I want... and the stuff I "want" doesn't really extend powers that much beyond what SOs do.  AS FAR AS I"VE SEEN, it doesn't add new and intriguing gameplay (please let me know if I've missed something).

Course, I realize I might be a bad example.  I largely don't give a shit about this game or my characters any more.  This addition doesn't change that... in an odd way, it reinforces it.  The amount of time and effort I'd have to expend to come up to speed on inventions relative to what invention adds to the game just kills any desire I have to play again.

Does that make sense?  Saying, "SOs still work", misses the point.  The point being that I was hoping that inventions would respark my interest in this game.  So there you have it, Inventions require too much work for too little return (either in character strength, or new and intriguing gameplay).  It's too bad, cause they seem to have put alot of effort into it.

[Valmorian]

How could anyone think this system is complex?  You gather components, go to a table and click "Create" from a list of the recipes you have. 

How much more simple could crafting BE?

[Kitsune]

My current melee powers have 3 damage SOs, 1 accuracy SO, 1 recharge SO, and 1 endurance SO, giving me 97% damage boost, 36.7% accuracy boost, recharge reduction, and endurance reduction.  Using this new stuff would give me 101% damage, 68.9% accuracy, recharge reduction, and endurance reduction, on top of the little set bonus deals.  I can see the clear benefit to this.  I can't see the way to afford this, however, given the current insane pricing in the consignment house.  My scrapper has 16 million influence, but the recipes alone seem to be going for millions per enhancement.  Hopefully the prices will settle down in a couple of weeks, and hopefully the drop rate for the recipes and parts won't be abysmal.

[Nebu]

I played for an hour the other night and got lots of drops and 2 recipes.  I think the market represents the novelty of things.  Prices should drop quite a bit over the next month or so as the novelty wears off.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

My curiosity will overcome grind aversion this weekend, especially with the brief freeplay.  Anyone on the hero side on Victory?  I've got a level 50 tanker named Doctor Fanboi as well as handful of alts.  I think my highest level villian is a level 8 mastermind, also on Victory.

[Typhon]

How could anyone think this system is complex?  You gather components, go to a table and click "Create" from a list of the recipes you have. 

How much more simple could crafting BE?

I guess you could just hold onto whatever components and recipes drop, and build out inventions based entirely on chance.  That would be simple.  Seems like it wouldn't be very satisfying though.

What I think would be satisfying is making and slotting for an overall increase in power.  Why do I think that's too complicated?  From the relatively brief reading I did here's what I think is involved (again, please correct me if I don't understand the system)

1) understanding what sets are available and what bonuses they provide(i.e. taking the time to find and read the guides) - this is work.  I want to play a game not do research. I want to log in and get all the information from the game to help me make decent choices.  THAT right there is what is too complex.  I just want to log in and play the game.  I don't want to search the crappy CoH forum.  I definitely don't want to search other web sites, and I refuse to Google for it.

2) now you have to understand what powers they slot into, and how the sets compare with more straightforward SO application. 

3) after that, you need to get the recipes you need to build those sets - this involves grinding, because the gameplay has become so tedious to me.  So to even try out invention, I have to grind.  not good.

4) after you do all that, what's the bottom line on how much better your character is after that?  just seems like too much effort for the return.  That's how I could think it's too complicated.

If the word "lazy" pops into your head while reading what I think is complicated then you will never get what I'm saying and you should just stop trying.

[Valmorian]

I guess you could just hold onto whatever components and recipes drop, and build out inventions based entirely on chance.  That would be simple.  Seems like it wouldn't be very satisfying though.

Can't help you with the "satisfying" thing, there, but honestly if you want to do min-maxing of your character on ANY MMO you have to put in quite a bit of time to research.

1) understanding what sets are available and what bonuses they provide(i.e. taking the time to find and read the guides) - this is work.  I want to play a game not do research. I want to log in and get all the information from the game to help me make decent choices.  THAT right there is what is too complex.  I just want to log in and play the game.  I don't want to search the crappy CoH forum.  I definitely don't want to search other web sites, and I refuse to Google for it.

You CAN go in and make decent choices.  You can in ALL of these games.  If you want to obsess about whether your character is in the upper 5th percentile power-wise, then I would suggest you don't "just want to play a game".  It's like a chess player complaining that he can't beat the grandmasters without doing a lot of "work".  No kidding, duh.

If the word "lazy" pops into your head while reading what I think is complicated then you will never get what I'm saying and you should just stop trying.

It's only "complicated" if you want to squeeze every last bit of power out of this invention system.  To expect to be able to do this without "research" isn't reasonable, any more than it would be reasonable to expect to be the best at ANYTHING without putting in "research".  I'm not accusing you of being lazy, I'm saying you're accusing this game of doing something that EVERY game does.

[Typhon]

I guess we just disagree.  Which is fine as far as I'm concerned, I wasn't trying to change opinion, just express mine.  For what it's worth,  I'm not trying to min-max to the top 5%, 20%, 50% or really very much at all.  But haphazardly slotting inventions as I get them without a clue about what does what doesn't seem like a good way to go either.  I think this is mostly where we disagree, you think that you can make a decent choice with the information that you are given within the game and I don't.

[Trippy]

How could anyone think this system is complex?  You gather components, go to a table and click "Create" from a list of the recipes you have. 

How much more simple could crafting BE?

I'm not talking about the mechanics of making them. I'm talking about the lack of tools to manage all the new information. Here's a simple example. I get an invention salvage drop. What enchancements can I make with that thing? No fucking clue. Get Info is totally fucking useless in this case. I have to go to Wentworths and search through all the fricking recipes to figure out what that salvage can be used in. I could totally be missing something simple here so please clue me in if I am.

Here's a more complicated example. What are the total increases/bonuses if I slot an entire special set? No fucking clue without entering in all the data into a spreadsheet. Why doesn't it show you what a full set would give you? Each set has it's own "parent" entry in the auction house -- they could've shown it there.

[Trippy]

My curiosity will overcome grind aversion this weekend, especially with the brief freeplay.  Anyone on the hero side on Victory?  I've got a level 50 tanker named Doctor Fanboi as well as handful of alts.  I think my highest level villian is a level 8 mastermind, also on Victory.

I'm on Victory. Meira is my level 50 controller.

[CmdrSlack]

How could anyone think this system is complex?  You gather components, go to a table and click "Create" from a list of the recipes you have. 

How much more simple could crafting BE?

I'm not talking about the mechanics of making them. I'm talking about the lack of tools to manage all the new information. Here's a simple example. I get an invention salvage drop. What enchancements can I make with that thing? No fucking clue. Get Info is totally fucking useless in this case. I have to go to Wentworths and search through all the fricking recipes to figure out what that salvage can be used in. I could totally be missing something simple here so please clue me in if I am.

Well, you can look up some recipes in the library at the university, but I don't recall if that's for commons only.

[Glazius]

How could anyone think this system is complex?  You gather components, go to a table and click "Create" from a list of the recipes you have. 

How much more simple could crafting BE?

I'm not talking about the mechanics of making them. I'm talking about the lack of tools to manage all the new information. Here's a simple example. I get an invention salvage drop. What enchancements can I make with that thing? No fucking clue. Get Info is totally fucking useless in this case. I have to go to Wentworths and search through all the fricking recipes to figure out what that salvage can be used in. I could totally be missing something simple here so please clue me in if I am.

Here's a more complicated example. What are the total increases/bonuses if I slot an entire special set? No fucking clue without entering in all the data into a spreadsheet. Why doesn't it show you what a full set would give you? Each set has it's own "parent" entry in the auction house -- they could've shown it there.

You can look through the basic Invention: Whatever recipes at any crafting table - university or superbase. With a pocket full of common salvage you can hide recipes missing ingredients and see what you can make.

As far as total bonuses, here's a quick guide to approximating.

A Set IO that enhances 1 attribute does it at full strength.
A Set IO that enhances 2 does it at 2/3 each.
A Set IO that enhances 3 or 4 does it at 1/2 each.

Combine that with the list of enhancers in the set and you should be able to eyeball how good it will get.

--GF

[Trippy]

You can look through the basic Invention: Whatever recipes at any crafting table - university or superbase. With a pocket full of common salvage you can hide recipes missing ingredients and see what you can make.

Okay that's somewhat useful but let's say I have 2 out of 3 common salvage pieces I need for a particular basic recipe but I don't know what that recipe is. How do I figure that out without going through all the basic recipes?

[Shrike]

What I do (so far) is not worry about what salvage drops. I worry about the salvage I need for recipes I already have. I don't buy basic recipes, for the most part. Put another way, I don't sweat the details.

Now set piece recipes are another matter. My electric brute is probably going to go competely bonkers in a few levels slotting out her attacks with full set pieces. This...won't be easy. Nor cheap. But what the heck? Some of the bonuses are kinda nice and the overall effects of a full suite of IOs are pretty substantial, certainly superior to an equal number of SOs, but you do have to play the ED numbers games to figure out what you're about. Realistically, this means most everything I find gets sold, since storage is at a premium. When I decide to actually slot for sets, I'll probably have to buy 80% of what I'll need.

And that's the real hassle with IOs. The piddly common stuff isn't really much of an issue. The set pieces have to be researched, and for me that means an hour or two examining the possibilities at the BM. Availability is going to be a huge issue. Could this be a lot better and more conveniant? Sure. But on the other hand, I don't mind THAT much either. My electric brute is way in to the bad times in the 30s, xp-wise. It's a nice break from running incessant paper missions or trying to find a halfway competent group to run contact missions.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

I'm on Victory. Meira is my level 50 controller.

Thanks, I'll send a "howdy" if I see you around.

I've had time so far to run through the invention tutorial mission with my main and to gag at the prices on auction.  With my love of costume tinkering, I never accumulated the vast wealth needed to play the auction game at this point.

[Glazius]

As a proof of how quick it is to wind up with regular IOs, a little story.

I have a spine/regen scrapper who was a fresh 27 on Tuesday and just dinged 29. Most of her slots are filled with IOs, the exception being three of her healing slots, because you need 2 of one salvage type to make those and there's a bottleneck at the consignment house.

--GF

[Typhon]

What percentage of that was from straight drops, versus market-bought?

[Glazius]

What percentage of that was from straight drops, versus market-bought?

I bought about half the recipes on consignment, and most of the tech salvage that went into the IOs. I provided the magic portions myself.

--GF

[Hutch]

Anecdote alert! All of the following is from my perspective, as I drove a Hero character from just shy of 26 to just making 27, over the past few days.

I've noticed that tech salvage tends to be cheap, with lots of supply and few bidders whenever I check.
The reverse is true for arcane salvage.

I doubt if there's more demand for arcane because of recipes. I think there's a short supply.
I think people avoid fighting CoT and BP.

I've seen common tech salvage going for less inf in the CH than it would at the vendor. Someone literally bought Inert Gas for 100 inf.
I wonder if people just don't know you can sell it to a vendor.

I have exactly one IO in my powers so far. It's the one I made doing the tutorial.
I've now sold enough salvage to make somewhere around 4-5 million inf total.
And then I turned around and spend roughly 2 million of that on my level 30 SO's, after reaching level 27.
If I was really industrious, I could have tried to replace them all with IOs, and see what the difference in cost would have been.

I sold 2 pieces of rare (orange) arcane salvage for 800k each.

Anecdote alert ends. You may now return to your places of business.

[Trippy]

The Statesman TF is brutally hard with a PUG -- and we never even made it to the hard part (Dr. Aeon owned us). Hopefully it'll get easier with more experience.

[Phred]

How could anyone think this system is complex?  You gather components, go to a table and click "Create" from a list of the recipes you have. 

How much more simple could crafting BE?

I'm not talking about the mechanics of making them. I'm talking about the lack of tools to manage all the new information. Here's a simple example. I get an invention salvage drop. What enchancements can I make with that thing? No fucking clue. Get Info is totally fucking useless in this case. I have to go to Wentworths and search through all the fricking recipes to figure out what that salvage can be used in. I could totally be missing something simple here so please clue me in if I am.

Here's a more complicated example. What are the total increases/bonuses if I slot an entire special set? No fucking clue without entering in all the data into a spreadsheet. Why doesn't it show you what a full set would give you? Each set has it's own "parent" entry in the auction house -- they could've shown it there.

You can look through the basic Invention: Whatever recipes at any crafting table - university or superbase. With a pocket full of common salvage you can hide recipes missing ingredients and see what you can make.

As far as total bonuses, here's a quick guide to approximating.

A Set IO that enhances 1 attribute does it at full strength.
A Set IO that enhances 2 does it at 2/3 each.
A Set IO that enhances 3 or 4 does it at 1/2 each.

Combine that with the list of enhancers in the set and you should be able to eyeball how good it will get.

--GF

How does all this work with the diminishing returns they put on SO's slotted. If you have 3 or 4 so's slotted now does adding an io that add's 20% really only give you 5 like adding the 5th so would?

[Kitsune]

Diminishing returns is based on enhancement percentages.  I think it goes: 0-70% - no loss, 70-90% - 20% loss, 80-95% - 40% loss, over 95% - 85% loss.  So any enhancement of any type that boosts any value over 70% is going to be diminished, and it becomes nearly impossible to push any value much past 100%.  That's why squeezing multiple boosts into one enhancement is such an improvement in efficiency, they don't usually reach a high enough point to be diminished to any extent.

[Glazius]

Diminishing returns is based on enhancement percentages.  I think it goes: 0-70% - no loss, 70-90% - 20% loss, 80-95% - 40% loss, over 95% - 85% loss.  So any enhancement of any type that boosts any value over 70% is going to be diminished, and it becomes nearly impossible to push any value much past 100%.  That's why squeezing multiple boosts into one enhancement is such an improvement in efficiency, they don't usually reach a high enough point to be diminished to any extent.

That 20 and 40 should be 10 and 30, but otherwise you've got your figures right.

This also assumes that you're working with things like damage and accuracy. Range, defense, and resistance SOs boost by 20%, knockback boosts by 60%, I think interrupt time boosts by 40%, and they have slightly different values where they stop. But it's the same proportional to the number of SOs. Three SOs will cap you for most practical purposes.

However, set bonuses from IO sets don't go through this kind of scaling, though you can only benefit from any one set 5 times.

--GF

[Kitsune]

I found the recipe for tech wings, darted over to the auction house, and sold 'em for 22 million, more than doubling my money.  Viva la capitalism!  Now to start raiding the consignments for the IOs I need to buff the hell out of my powers...

[Typhon]

I got the recipe for winged boots, thought about selling them, and then started to feel like I wanted them for one of my chars.  As someone who could never understand the folks that spent more time on how their char looked then how he performed this was an odd moment.