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Author Topic: The Armory and tinfoil hats  (Read 43099 times)
Venkman
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on: April 08, 2007, 08:39:15 AM

Blizzard apparently pissed people off with the Tinfoil April Fool's thing and the Armory. I don't read the oboards (I have Barrens/Shadowmoon chat for that shit). So, aside from "the principal of invaded privacy" most emotional vitriol seems tied up in, is there any actual mechanical advantage someone can get by looking up someone else's profile on the Armory?

I'm asking because I first bothered paying attention to this because it spawned one of the longest comments threads I've seen over at Lum's digs.
Oban
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Reply #1 on: April 08, 2007, 09:21:16 AM

Well, it used to let one know if the mage in the arena match is ice, fire or arcane and switch armour before the match officially begins.  Also, balance, feral or resto Druid?   If resto, focus fire.  A little bit of an advantage, but it reduced the "luck" factor.  I am pretty sure the ability to see one's opponents in the combat log before the match began was patched out recently.

For pve, it really lets guilds know all about the character.  No more bluffing about specs in raids and reduces the need for the infamous "Ironforge gear checks" during recruitment drives.  I think the biggest issue is the talent spec check. I know with my Druid I used to claim to be resto (pre-loltree) but would have the majority of my points in feral talents.  For post-bc, it lets guilds quickly check to see if you are keyed for heroics.


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Zetor
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Reply #2 on: April 08, 2007, 10:25:16 AM

You can also see what instances the player's been [pre and post BC] in by checking their rep. For example, if they aren't revered with any major BC faction, they haven't run a heroic yet...


-- Z.

Calantus
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Reply #3 on: April 08, 2007, 11:46:06 AM

You see a lot of people getting laughed at on the official forums because they've said something about PVP and someone looked up their honor kills, arena ranking, terrible spec, or whathaveyou. People trying to flat out bluff their experiences have been caught out a few times too suggesting that I guess not everyone knows about armory until they try to lie about what they have.
Venkman
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Reply #4 on: April 08, 2007, 12:10:58 PM

So is that the main reason people are pissed? Because they can't bluff anymore? That's it?!
Merusk
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Reply #5 on: April 08, 2007, 12:50:11 PM

So is that the main reason people are pissed? Because they can't bluff anymore? That's it?!

That and the aforementioned PvP-check. Yep, that's it.

Well, then there's also the psycho minority who want games to go as far as removing /inspect because it also invades their privacy.  Or did you forget the hullabaloo that used to cause?

So I guess that's not "It" but it is a major reason folks seem to take issue with it. Ditto for /inspect.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Ironwood
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Reply #6 on: April 08, 2007, 03:54:51 PM

I mentioned in that thread that I don't get it.  Another 30 replies later and I still don't get it.  It's fucking weak ass to complain about armory.

Even for PvP.

Seriously, in the Arena, who actually can manage to get the other players to come up in the Armory in 30 seconds ?  I can't even look myself up in that fucking time.

I applaud Blizzard for 'The Tinfoil Hat' precisely because it tells their customers to shut the fuck up.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Venkman
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Reply #7 on: April 08, 2007, 04:40:21 PM

That's the reason I wanted to resurrect your question Ironwood. I don't get it either and like you have semi-watched that thread grow in size without substance. I appreciate people are charged up, but their entire argument is based in emotion. I knew I'd get a straighter answer from the folks here.
Phred
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Reply #8 on: April 08, 2007, 06:14:52 PM


So I guess that's not "It" but it is a major reason folks seem to take issue with it. Ditto for /inspect.

Actually I think the main reason ppl hated /insepect was the dumb message so-and-so is inspecting you. if Eq had never put in that message I doubt it ever would have been an issue. The best thing I see from armory is less ppl claiming to have umpty thousand atk and 50% crit anymore.



Trippy
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Reply #9 on: April 08, 2007, 06:28:33 PM

So I guess that's not "It" but it is a major reason folks seem to take issue with it. Ditto for /inspect.
Actually I think the main reason ppl hated /insepect was the dumb message so-and-so is inspecting you. if Eq had never put in that message I doubt it ever would have been an issue. The best thing I see from armory is less ppl claiming to have umpty thousand atk and 50% crit anymore.
As a sidenote "inspect spamming" in EQ was a good way to disconnect somebody on a dial-up, back in the day. We used to do it to disconnect people who had FAAK.

Edit: extra somebody
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 08:12:18 PM by Trippy »
Phred
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Reply #10 on: April 08, 2007, 06:44:17 PM

Ya I remember complaints of people using it in the BotB competition to lag out their opponents to make them lose the fights.

ajax34i
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Reply #11 on: April 08, 2007, 06:54:49 PM

Yup, you can check rep and figure out which instances someone's been to.  You can also (mostly if you know the name of the character) follow them from server to server if they switch servers (even if they change name, race+gender+class+exactfactionsetup = fingerprint).  You can laugh at morons on the boards (the Armory is one click away, just click their portrait, and voila, info), and this has happened a lot, especially on the general discussion forums, where derision about someone's build or factions is incorporated into how they get flamed now.
Venkman
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Reply #12 on: April 08, 2007, 07:55:46 PM

I have no sympathy for people who lie about what they've done to win some e-peen argument against forgettable faceless opponents. There's probably a lower form of insecurity, but I can't think of one. They probably were the same people who'd roll a level 1 character as their posting name so they could lie about their three level 60/t2-3 alts. There's no reason to design anything for them. They're stuck in WoW no matter how much Blizzard slaps them around.

Trippy, what's FAAK? I tried to look it up but could only find people using the expression. What's it stand for? I never got into PvP or much endgame raiding in EQ1. Never even hit the endgame, no matter where it was (finally gave up at 48 when the cap was, I think, 65).
Trippy
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Reply #13 on: April 08, 2007, 08:11:31 PM

FAAK = Fallen/ing Asleep At Keyboard
Paelos
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Reply #14 on: April 08, 2007, 08:58:25 PM

The only people that would complain about the armory are lying douchebags and powergaming nutcases who think they actually own their characters. Both of them can take a big ole steaming spoonful of STFU everyday in my book.

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Merusk
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Reply #15 on: April 08, 2007, 09:00:53 PM

I have no sympathy for people who lie about what they've done to win some e-peen argument against forgettable faceless opponents. There's probably a lower form of insecurity, but I can't think of one. They probably were the same people who'd roll a level 1 character as their posting name so they could lie about their three level 60/t2-3 alts. There's no reason to design anything for them. They're stuck in WoW no matter how much Blizzard slaps them around.

The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy.  He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
ajax34i
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Reply #16 on: April 08, 2007, 10:30:46 PM

Ahh.  One of the first replies has a link to someone compiling some information, and then laughing at people's gear.  Even though it's just character names, and not accounts or RL names, it still destroys the anonymity of the Internet for those people.  They can now be harrassed in-game.

Problem is that the data is now available via the web browser, which can be modded, so to speak, to hell and back, for serious data mining and auctioneer-like databases, and none of the restrictions and controls that are normally part of the client are possible, nor is there an eula that can be applied or a link to an account that can be banned, for the person collecting the data.

The info can be used (to laugh at idiots) or exploited (to laugh at / harrass you), and once your character is found, and people start logging into your server and sending you tells from nameless alts, it's pretty much over.

Triforcer
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Reply #17 on: April 08, 2007, 11:46:01 PM

Ahh.  One of the first replies has a link to someone compiling some information, and then laughing at people's gear.  Even though it's just character names, and not accounts or RL names, it still destroys the anonymity of the Internet for those people.  They can now be harrassed in-game.

Problem is that the data is now available via the web browser, which can be modded, so to speak, to hell and back, for serious data mining and auctioneer-like databases, and none of the restrictions and controls that are normally part of the client are possible, nor is there an eula that can be applied or a link to an account that can be banned, for the person collecting the data.

The info can be used (to laugh at idiots) or exploited (to laugh at / harrass you), and once your character is found, and people start logging into your server and sending you tells from nameless alts, it's pretty much over.



??  I'm not sure what you are saying here.  You are claiming that someone will have gear SO BAD that dozens or hundreds of people will log on to their server and laugh at them?  Even ignoring /ignore for the moment, I'm not seeing this as happening.

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Phred
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Reply #18 on: April 09, 2007, 04:48:12 AM




??  I'm not sure what you are saying here.  You are claiming that someone will have gear SO BAD that dozens or hundreds of people will log on to their server and laugh at them?  Even ignoring /ignore for the moment, I'm not seeing this as happening.

Ya, if that ever happened my first thought would be what the hell did you do to piss people off that much.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 03:57:32 PM by Phred »
Phred
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Reply #19 on: April 09, 2007, 04:49:12 AM

Ahh.  One of the first replies has a link to someone compiling some information, and then laughing at people's gear.  Even though it's just character names, and not accounts or RL names, it still destroys the anonymity of the Internet for those people.  They can now be harrassed in-game.

Problem is that the data is now available via the web browser, which can be modded, so to speak, to hell and back, for serious data mining and auctioneer-like databases, and none of the restrictions and controls that are normally part of the client are possible, nor is there an eula that can be applied or a link to an account that can be banned, for the person collecting the data.

The info can be used (to laugh at idiots) or exploited (to laugh at / harrass you), and once your character is found, and people start logging into your server and sending you tells from nameless alts, it's pretty much over. The boards have always listed people's real char names, level and server so if someone wanted to log in to their server to harrass them, having a bit of info from the armory is hardly gonna hurt much.




??  I'm not sure what you are saying here.  You are claiming that someone will have gear SO BAD that dozens or hundreds of people will log on to their server and laugh at them?  Even ignoring /ignore for the moment, I'm not seeing this as happening.


Ya my first question if this ever happened would be what the heck did you do to piss ppl off so badly they would go out of their way to do this.

edit: damn quotes. that'll teach me not to preview on late night posts.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 04:01:56 PM by Phred »
Merusk
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Reply #20 on: April 09, 2007, 06:21:33 AM

Thus, the tinfoil hat, Tri. 

That level of conspiracy and effort, just to harass random people?  Anyone that mean-spirited would rather just start yelling racial slurs and cursing in general to get a rise out of people.  Anyone SO concerned that their spec/ gear/ whatever is going to get them laughed-at really needs to revisit their attachment to the game.

(Phred has been pwnd by the quote feature. Poor Phred.)

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Venkman
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Reply #21 on: April 09, 2007, 07:11:47 AM

People were getting mocked and ridiculed on the oboards before the game even entered beta. To them, Armory is just another tool. It's the main reason oboards of a popular game are never really representive of the playerbase at large.

Quote from: Merusk
The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy. He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.
I can't speak for him of course. But my take is that his point was about bad community managment practices. He may or not see the Armory as a bad thing, but his post seemed to be about how you really shouldn't prod already emotionally-charged people in the way they did.

I somewhat agree. Bad as the oboards are, they still represent some of the most invested players Blizzard has, by sheer virtue of them taking their game beyond the game.

But this April Fools thing is just one minor part of the much larger issue Blizzard has in community management. They just don't seem to care all that much about it. There's a reason why the oboards are largely a festering pile of crap. Uncontrolled noise makers always collectively amp the volume.
Dren
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Reply #22 on: April 09, 2007, 07:46:58 AM

I've only had good things come from the Armory so far.  I invite people to look at my profiles and laugh at me.  Like I really care?  In fact, laughing at me actually helps me, like when one of you guys casually noticed I had my better dagger in my off-hand for instance.  Errr, whoops!  Thanks!  smiley

The only thing I can see that might have an impact is PvP, but I agree that it would take way to long to research every single match-up you do before it happens.  Let's just say you did do the research and got some kind of edge?  Who cares, it just makes that one match a little better for you.  The first match with anyone will tell you what they are specced based on their style and the powers they use.  If you are so obsessed with winning that you furiously go research the internet to get an advantage before each fight, then you will be obsessed with writing down the results of every match you're had too!

To me, this just evens the playing ground for people that aren't that crazy.  Go in and fight.  If you found that person hard to beat, then go research their profile and see what makes them tick.  You'll be better prepared for them next time....I guess.  That just seems like a whole lot of work for little gain to me.  Most PvPers I know use practice to get better, which doesn't leave a lot of time going in and out of the game to find out somebody's exact spec.  You're going to need to face 100's of opponents to get anything good from the PvP rewards, so why bother?

The rest of the complaints revolve around fooling people into believing something they are not.  I have no sympathy for that.  I have no problems with the Armory.

As for Lum's beef?  Yeah, poking fun at your customers is not good, but I've found the humor from Blizzard somewhat refreshing.  I'm biased though.  I just cannot imagine getting that upset over a game.  I just can't.  My thought is that Blizzards basically saying that they really aren't interested in people becoming THAT obsessed with their game.  I certainly try to avoid people like that, including having anything to do with the official forums.

Some of Lum's outrage may come from the fact that his project will someday come to light and he'll be in the spotlight.  He certainly cannot show any type of support for this type of action.  It is much safer for him to feel for the people, or something.  Most of the things he writes about when it comes to games revolves around trying to learn from the experience for his own benefit later on, or that's how I read it anyway.  He's showing that he's playing all these different games and trying to take the best from them and leaving the worst behind.  This is just part of that.  I applaud him for that.

I still just cannot understand the ire though.
Triforcer
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Reply #23 on: April 09, 2007, 09:35:40 AM

I've now went and read some of the Armory-hatin' threads.  I am unsatisfied because nobody has raised their constitutional right to privacy.  It arouses me when people assert their constitutional rights on gaming message boards.  Hell, I'm writing my entire 3L thesis on whether the people who say "IF BLIZ NERFS MY CHAR I PAYED 500 DOLLARS FOR I SUE" have any legal hope. 

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Hutch
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Reply #24 on: April 09, 2007, 09:37:47 AM

I think the outrage expressed by the players over the April Fool's joke was just a drop in the bucket, where the bucket represents the overall bitching about the Armory itself.

Lum seems to think that you shouldn't make fun of your customers. I think that some customers are more trouble than they're worth, and I also think that if you can't pop off to them every once in a while, then your job just becomes more like drudgery and less like something you enjoy doing.

And it was an April Fool's joke. A joke. Lighten up, psycho WoW players.




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Lum
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Reply #25 on: April 09, 2007, 09:45:43 AM

The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy.  He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.

No, I'm more concerned not only that Blizzard felt it acceptable to mock a segment of their users, but that many feel that's perfectly OK. Whereas if SOE did the same thing, a jihad would have been mounted. Situational ethics == bad.

As far as the actual Armory privacy implications - I couldn't care less personally, although I think it says something that Blizzard refuses to put in an opt-out. Probably for the same reason they won't implement /anon. Someone there seriously disagrees with online privacy.

In any event work has been keeping me busy but I should have an update soon with more. The vehemence shown on this topic on both sides is... interesting.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 09:48:04 AM by Lum »
Mesozoic
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Reply #26 on: April 09, 2007, 10:00:36 AM

Blizz has always had that kind of snarky humor.  People will forgive a lot from a competent company.  If there's anything to lose, its a few subscribers getting irritated and leaving, and thats Blizzard's own loss.  The rest of us laugh because we know how stupid people can act on the internet. 

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Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #27 on: April 09, 2007, 10:16:53 AM

The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy.  He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.

No, I'm more concerned not only that Blizzard felt it acceptable to mock a segment of their users, but that many feel that's perfectly OK. Whereas if SOE did the same thing, a jihad would have been mounted. Situational ethics == bad.

As far as the actual Armory privacy implications - I couldn't care less personally, although I think it says something that Blizzard refuses to put in an opt-out. Probably for the same reason they won't implement /anon. Someone there seriously disagrees with online privacy.

In any event work has been keeping me busy but I should have an update soon with more. The vehemence shown on this topic on both sides is... interesting.

I think they don't put in an opt-out because it really is something they want the playerbase to have access to as a useful tool, and an opt-out would turn it into something completely pointless. I know I've used it as a raider to gauge my group's gear vs. people's gear that I know have beaten certain fights. It's very helpful in that regard to benchmark yourself against the populace to improve what you have in pve content. I know I've found utility in certain items that I wouldn't have used or known about without the Armory's help, and it also gives the frontrunner leveling community a place to fly their flag high for the server.

I can see some uses for it in pvp, but not as many as I think people might suggest. I think the vehemence from this community about people complaining over this is because we know there is really no such thing as ownership of a character in these games. We've learned that, we're mature enough to handle that fact, and we understand that we live and die by the whim of Blizzard. We are also supremely snarky, and we love watching the unwashed masses squirm under the development gods' flashlights while they have their own lies and misrepresentations of themselves brought to bear. "I know what I'm talking about because I'm awesome and I have all my T4 gear," won't fly anymore when we all know you're a sack of crap. Then again, anyone that spends enough time on official boards to care about this is automatically in our shit list here because they are participating in a wretched hive of scum and villany we wouldn't saunter into with a hazmat suit.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Miasma
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Reply #28 on: April 09, 2007, 10:37:08 AM

I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature.  The reason has nothing to do with bragging about gear/rep as I have never done that (both suck since I only resubbed last month and had to go from 40-70) and I don't PvP so the somewhat legitimate concerns from that are irrelevant for me (I mean opposite factions can't /inspect eachother in game so why on earth should they be allowed to do it online and also get to see their talent spec).

The tinfoil hat thing, while funny, crossed a line between poking fun and being insulting.  The problem was that blizzard's web team were the ones who made the armory and they are also the ones who did the tinfoil hat.  They obviously got all pissy that so many people dislike the creation they must have spent months working on and decided to get bitchy with their customers.  It would be like the class developers giving whichever class is whining the most this month an item called "The World's Smallest Violin".

They should enable the armory by default so that the vast majority that don't care have it enabled and those that don't want to have it exposed can disable it.  That way if someone is bragging you can call them on it or demand they prove it by allowing people to view their armory, if they refuse then they are obviously lying.  If your guild has certain minimum gear/rep then make part of the process to apply be that their armory be visible while being considered.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 10:39:53 AM by Miasma »
Jayce
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Reply #29 on: April 09, 2007, 10:47:52 AM

I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature.

I'm curious as to why you don't like it, if not for the reasons you state that you DON'T not like it for here.


As for online privacy, to me it doesn't quite seem to apply here.  There's a difference between the privacy of your real personal information and your game character's personal information.  It seems a little silly to apply privacy to a game character.  It's like someone getting bent out of shape that we can't cloak our postcount numbers or last online date on a web forum.

Witty banter not included.
Nebu
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Reply #30 on: April 09, 2007, 10:50:58 AM

People that want privacy seem to want it for the wrong reasons.  a) to allow them to roll on gear for alts or cash b) to overstate their accomplishments c) both. 

The pvp reason is the only one I can see as semi-valid and even that isn't a big deal. 

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-  Mark Twain
Dren
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Reply #31 on: April 09, 2007, 10:52:30 AM

All an opt-out means for me is that I won't use The Armory.  You'll weaken the tool itself.  The people that will go out of their way to opt-out are exactly the people that need to be in there.

- Lieing about their gear.
- The best gear from raiders that don't want other people to know what the next highest bar is (see Paelo's post.)


I suppose it could be used as a means of saying, "Either show us or shut up!" to rat out liars, but at that point it begins to become a mental slap fight.  

"Ha ha!  Only newbs opt-in!"
Paelos
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Reply #32 on: April 09, 2007, 11:14:07 AM

The tinfoil hat thing, while funny, crossed a line between poking fun and being insulting.  The problem was that blizzard's web team were the ones who made the armory and they are also the ones who did the tinfoil hat.  They obviously got all pissy that so many people dislike the creation they must have spent months working on and decided to get bitchy with their customers.  It would be like the class developers giving whichever class is whining the most this month an item called "The World's Smallest Violin".

I still have a very "boo-freaking-hoo" attitude towards this. It's not the same as a class rep at all. Class reps are there to give information and try to help their playerbase understand changes in a diplomatic situation. The tinfoil hat was an obvious joke that even you admitted was funny, and it was targeted at people who have obviously had a break with the reality of their gaming situation. It was targetting the nutballs, not a whole class of players like druids. It wasn't even a pissy joke, it was just like a "We honestly never thought people would care this much, here's your hat nutcases."

Honestly, I'm with the others here on find me a good reason to not have this that doesn't revolve around some kind of crazy 1984 logic or isn't about someone lying to make themselves feel better.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Oban
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Reply #33 on: April 09, 2007, 11:40:13 AM

Wait... you are shocked that Blizzard can get away with mocking their customers?

I do not think it is situational ethics, Blizzard always mocks themselves and their customers.  Sony, in the past, has just... I don't know, shat on everyone and everything.

Blizzard poked fun at the ultra-hardcore perma-death folks (vanguard?) last year with:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/townhall/wisps.html

and eq2/catasses the year before that with:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/pandaren-xpress.html

and stupid gameplay mechanic suggestions the year before that with:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/races/two-headed-ogre.shtml

and so on and so forth...

This compares to Sony's past humorous items like...?

Really apples and oranges.

Palin 2012 : Let's go out with a bang!
Lantyssa
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Reply #34 on: April 09, 2007, 11:51:16 AM

I cannot see any claim to privacy being valid.  No player owns anything about their character.  It is Blizzard's data to do with as they please.  Welcome to the EULA argument of past years.

The tin foil hat was slightly amusing, but I fail to see how it is any different than what they always do.  They poke fun at everything.  If someone is offended by the joke hitting too close to home, as opposed to worrying about other's threatment at the hands of the company, then they are in need of a reality check anyways.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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