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Merusk
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Reply #35 on: April 09, 2007, 12:35:21 PM

The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy.  He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.

No, I'm more concerned not only that Blizzard felt it acceptable to mock a segment of their users, but that many feel that's perfectly OK. Whereas if SOE did the same thing, a jihad would have been mounted. Situational ethics == bad.

As far as the actual Armory privacy implications - I couldn't care less personally, although I think it says something that Blizzard refuses to put in an opt-out. Probably for the same reason they won't implement /anon. Someone there seriously disagrees with online privacy.

In any event work has been keeping me busy but I should have an update soon with more. The vehemence shown on this topic on both sides is... interesting.

Ah, see I obviously didn't get that at all.   I can understand your situational ethics argument, because I know you're absolutly right that there's a segment who'd villify SOE if they ever did the same thing.  The key difference, though, is that SOE has always been so hardassed and corporate, never showing the same spark of humor.  I'm sure it exsistis in the company, it's just not expressed.

   If they had the same irreverent history, even with all the past ill-will I don't think it'd be taken as seriously.  However, we're now talking about alternate realities so that's rather pointless.


The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Lum
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Hellfire Games


Reply #36 on: April 09, 2007, 02:57:30 PM

So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?
Nebu
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Reply #37 on: April 09, 2007, 03:00:22 PM

So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

Many games exist with a "view" command that serves a very similar function, but I don't think it has the level of detail that the Armory has.  Not to sound like a total noob, but isn't there a "view" command of sorts in WoW already?

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Mesozoic
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Reply #38 on: April 09, 2007, 03:03:33 PM

So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

Like the "inspect" option? 

I suppose talents, professions and rep aren't viewable, but it never occurred to me that it was that way because those things needed to be hidden for some reason. 

And why does it have to be essential?  Can't it just be interesting and enlightening?

...any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god.
-Numtini
Valmorian
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Reply #39 on: April 09, 2007, 03:05:11 PM

So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

It's probably no more essential than, say, a web interface that displayed rosters of Guild members with kill numbers beside them, and maps of RvR areas with who owned which keep.
Lum
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Reply #40 on: April 09, 2007, 03:10:56 PM

Well played, sirrah!

Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers. That's what I'm getting at. If it's a core game system, it should be in the game, no? And if not, then it's.... not a core game system. DAOC would have been perfectly playable without RvR stats pages.

While many PvP players and raiders quickly adopted the Armory as an essential tool, I suspect it wasn't intended by Blizzard to be as core as its advocates are claiming.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 03:12:51 PM by Lum »
MrHat
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Reply #41 on: April 09, 2007, 03:27:30 PM

DAOC would have been perfectly playable without RvR stats pages.

But then, would everyone have played?
Trouble
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Reply #42 on: April 09, 2007, 03:46:46 PM

Well played, sirrah!

Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers. That's what I'm getting at. If it's a core game system, it should be in the game, no? And if not, then it's.... not a core game system. DAOC would have been perfectly playable without RvR stats pages.

While many PvP players and raiders quickly adopted the Armory as an essential tool, I suspect it wasn't intended by Blizzard to be as core as its advocates are claiming.

I question this as well. Just to put it out there, I am all for the Armory tool. I love it. I'm an internet stalker and I'm also an officer in an end-game raiding guild that is responsible for recruitment and it makes my job a hell of a lot easier. But still, I'm just very curious what the goal of the Armory was from Blizzard's point of view. Was it just something "cool" they thought of? They've always put a lot of work into their website with countless guides and lore. Blizzard has more on their website than probably any game out there by a large margin, so it might just be "another thing". It certainly didn't come from the customers asking for it, but it definitely is something that many like now that it's here. I guess I'm just curious because most people aren't used to game companies, especially MMOs, going out of their way to provide extra features at no cost that weren't even really asked for. Makes me think there was some sort of bigger motivation there to do it but I can't figure out what it is.
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #43 on: April 09, 2007, 04:00:18 PM

I always figured they did what they do with all their UI developments.  See what the community comes up with on their own, then implement it their own way (see: CTProfiles).
Hutch
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Reply #44 on: April 09, 2007, 04:01:10 PM

Well played, sirrah!

Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers.


Granted that I haven't read all of the posts in all of the threads yet, but I haven't read anyone saying this. You may have been exaggerating to make a point, I dunno.

It would be more accurate to say that allowing anyone to opt out causes the Armory itself to suffer.
But then we'd have to figure out what the Armory is for.

Which brings me to...
Quote
If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

Perhaps we should add "for now" to the end of that sentence.
Maybe they have a plan for the Armory. I'm sure I'm not the first to think up the idea of a plug-in that lets you look up Armory data in-game.

Or maybe, they've just created it as a tool. A data source. Something to put out there, and see what their legion of unpaid 3rd party developers (aka the player base) will do with it.

(Doh MrHat made this last point while I was writing it.)

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Jayce
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Reply #45 on: April 09, 2007, 04:03:14 PM


Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers.

If you are referring to what Paelos said earlier in the thread (and not the general feeling on the oboards or somewhere else I don't read), then I think the argument as stated is slightly wrong.  An Armory without 100% participation would cause the ARMORY to suffer, but not the game.  Obviously we've played the game for three or whatever years now without it, so the game could give a flip.

It is an extremely cool tool, but essential?  Not really.  And without 100% participation it would be (a little/moderately/substantially, depending on who you ask) less cool.

edit: point to Hutch.  Maybe I should not just blindly hit "reply" when I get that red text.  I guess it's fair play though, because Hutch did it to Hat in turn.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 04:04:51 PM by Jayce »

Witty banter not included.
Rasix
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Reply #46 on: April 09, 2007, 04:11:26 PM

Goddamn warrior in my group on Friday insisted on tanking.  With 8K less amor apparently (he's in his tank gear in the profile).  And 2.5K less HP. And he said he was MS specced at that time (prot now).   angry

I find the concept of opting out of the armory a little humorous.  I would chuckle of someone tried to armoryown me if I was wearing offspec gear. 

-Rasix
Hutch
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Reply #47 on: April 09, 2007, 04:15:37 PM

Goddamn warrior in my group on Friday insisted on tanking.  With 8K less amor apparently (he's in his tank gear in the profile).  And 2.5K less HP. And he said he was MS specced at that time (prot now).   angry

I find the concept of opting out of the armory a little humorous.  I would chuckle of someone tried to armoryown me if I was wearing offspec gear. 

That reminds me of something else I thought of. If it doesn't already exist, don't be surprised when a plugin appears to auto-swap your gear when you log out ;)

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Paelos
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Reply #48 on: April 09, 2007, 04:37:50 PM


Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers.

If you are referring to what Paelos said earlier in the thread (and not the general feeling on the oboards or somewhere else I don't read), then I think the argument as stated is slightly wrong.  An Armory without 100% participation would cause the ARMORY to suffer, but not the game.  Obviously we've played the game for three or whatever years now without it, so the game could give a flip.

This was the point I was making. I said it was something that Blizzard intended as a useful tool, and an opt-out makes it useless. Is it essential? Absoutely not, but why throw the baby out with the bathwater because a few people don't like being outed as a lying dog. If anything, perhaps it gets those people to become more honest. People won't quit in large numbers over this no matter how much they bitch, and Blizzard is well in touch with that fact. So they joke about it. Honestly, if anything it makes me happier as a customer that we can call BS on people that I've always disliked for being shady bastards, and I intend to continue my subscription as long as they continue to absorb good ideas (like CTprofiles) into their own system.

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Merusk
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Reply #49 on: April 09, 2007, 05:39:44 PM

Here's a thought on why Blizzard put in the armory.

To take-back some control.

Time and time again we've seen fan sites, spoiler sites, etc gobbled-up by the likes of IGE and their ilk.  The next step is for them to start taking over CTprofiles and other such sites which were already frequently used by larger raiding guilds who didn't want to mess with such profiling tools on their own sites.  Providing the Armory prior to this happening means there's no need for anyone to use those sites, so there's no place for IGE to dig their tentacles deeper into the gaming community.

But that's a pretty tinfoil hat reason.

Still, the only reason to 'hate' it is because you're getting caught in your own lies.  Ditto if Blizzard were to suddenly disallow posting on multiple characters, or add a link to ALL your characters when posting.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 07:31:45 PM by Merusk »

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Chenghiz
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Reply #50 on: April 09, 2007, 05:54:01 PM

CTprofiles is sill superior in some ways (or will be when they finally make sockets work) because it can track different sets and can also be used to theorycraft about gear you might want but don't have. When the Armory is less bloated (seriously why does my browser freeze using that shit) and has those features, I'll use it instead.

I really don't buy these 'privacy' arguments because the only information it makes public is still within the context of the game and is really of no more import than simply walking up to a guy and inspecting him. If you could find out a guy's account name or real-life name or something similar from a feature like the Armory, then I would have a serious issue with it. As it is... 'Hi kids, it's a game.'
Jayce
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Reply #51 on: April 09, 2007, 10:37:30 PM

(seriously why does my browser freeze using that shit) .

I think it's because they expose it all as xml and then convert it on the page.  That is a sort of silly way to present it, except that it lends itself to third party sites or programs being able to grab the data and display it their own way.

Witty banter not included.
Trouble
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Reply #52 on: April 10, 2007, 12:21:31 AM

It also reduces the load on the server because it has to spend less processing power and bandwidth formatting it into html and all that crap.
Calantus
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Reply #53 on: April 10, 2007, 12:33:55 AM

It would be like the class developers giving whichever class is whining the most this month an item called "The World's Smallest Violin".

They should do this. Actually they already did something similar with the voodoo dolls that drop in ZG. The paladin one used to read "resembles a paladin or an adolescent girl" back when paladins used to bitch incessantly (has it changed?), but they took it out when people complained. Frankly I think people need to stiffen their spines a little and not take offence so easily in general so I really have no sympathy when people object to such jokes. I like that Blizzard is able to poke fun at themselves and others, it's nice to know that a company in the entertainment industry can have a little fun like that. I mean seriously; McWeaksauce, Captain Placeholder, Watcher Backus, broken "I Win" button, nubless pacifier, etc. Blizzard is just not a company that takes itself or the game seriously in general.

I'd object to SoE doing it because they don't have a soul or a humorous bone in their bodies and could only do it for malice. Cthulu
Ironwood
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Reply #54 on: April 10, 2007, 04:17:16 AM

So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

Here's another :  Who says it is ?


Edited to Add:  Tho I do agree that bitching about SOE doing the same thing merely makes a fool out of the person doing so.  I wonder, Lum, how much of your feeling is due to the fact that you, as an NCSoft bod, would probably not 'get away' with the same stuff ?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 04:20:42 AM by Ironwood »

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Dren
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Reply #55 on: April 10, 2007, 08:01:52 AM

It has been said already, but I wanted to clarify my own position.  I'm not saying The Armory is essential for the game.  I don't know why they put it in, but I like to use it.  If people could opt-out, it would weaken The Armory, thus making it useless, so why have it?  There are plenty of other sites to get that information from that work quicker (as said before.)

The Armory has an advantage over all the others in that it is as powerful as it can be in terms of raw data.  The other sites don't have that advantage.  Again, do we HAVE to have the Armory?  Nope, but I appreciate it.
Simond
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Reply #56 on: April 10, 2007, 09:28:56 AM

I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature. 
But there is an opt-out function - it's called the "Cancel Account" button.
Otherwise The Armoury is just another one of those things (like, for example, the Warden client) which you agree to when you click 'Accept' on the EULA/TOS.

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WindupAtheist
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Reply #57 on: April 10, 2007, 09:56:06 AM

Lum, wash the sand out of your vagina.  Nobody gives a fuck about the deluded bleating of a few catasses who think showing their Longsword of Pwnage on the web violates their "privacy" somehow.  Not even Blizzard, and good on them for telling the crybabies to STFU.

EDIT:  Half of this "Look how pissed they are!" thread you linked to from your blog consists of people telling the initial poster that he's a crybaby and should STFU.  Go figure.

EDIT:  More like three-quarters or more, as I continue to read.  Seriously, it's like two people being offended by the tinfoil hat, and four-hundred other people calling them humorless losers.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:00:27 AM by WindupAtheist »

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Miasma
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Reply #58 on: April 10, 2007, 10:00:48 AM

Look, I'm not against the Armory itself, I just don't see why there can't be an option to leave it.  I have used it myself to look up other shadow priests and I have respecced since the veterens all seem to put enough points into the discipline tree to get inner focus and meditation.

I would really like to hear the reasons why an opt out would make the whole thing "worthless".  You should be able to log in and there will be a drop down with the following options:
- Expose to all
- Expose only to guild/friendslist
- Expose only to guild
- Private

The default would be expose to all, the EQ2/Vanguard sites that do the same thing are worthless because the default is "Private" and since very few people bother to log in and change that most everyone is private.  Since 80% of people don't care or don't even know about the armory all their info will be out there.

The top end raiders want their gear to show, they want to show it off, they will not be hiding it.  And even if this bizarre idea that they would hide it to protect secrets was true they can already do that, they use itemrack to switch to naked and then log off.

People who brag about having +1600 spell damage or being exalted with whoever but hide their profiles would be laughed off the boards, the community would create a new word for these people specifically tailored to insult them.  They would have less credibility than a person giving advice who has crappy gear but at least lets people know it.

Inside a guild you can enforce your own armory policy if you like, just be up front about it.  If someone doesn't open it up then tell them to leave.
Jayce
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Reply #59 on: April 10, 2007, 10:10:46 AM

stuff

OK, you make a pretty good case as to why it wouldn't be worthless if we had the options you specify.

Now I'm curious what we would gain if we had those options (besides a few entertaining drama threads by people professing uberness but hiding their profiles).

Witty banter not included.
tazelbain
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Reply #60 on: April 10, 2007, 10:19:04 AM

I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature.
But there is an opt-out function - it's called the "Cancel Account" button.
Otherwise The Armoury is just another one of those things (like, for example, the Warden client) which you agree to when you click 'Accept' on the EULA/TOS.
Yep vote with you wallet.  Especially when dealing a developer who displays contempt of the player base.

Seems like it be another tool for gold farmers/know-it-alls to harass people.

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Miasma
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Reply #61 on: April 10, 2007, 10:30:49 AM

OK, you make a pretty good case as to why it wouldn't be worthless if we had the options you specify.

Now I'm curious what we would gain if we had those options (besides a few entertaining drama threads by people professing uberness but hiding their profiles).
Well I guess most people wouldn't gain anything but it wouldn't hurt them either.  The five percent of us paranoid freaks who don't want people to know that we like picking flowers and have an unreasonable fear of what a gaggle of assholes think of us based on our clothing would be happy though.  If the five percent I pulled out of my ass is accurate that's 400,000 happy people.

I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature.
But there is an opt-out function - it's called the "Cancel Account" button.
Otherwise The Armoury is just another one of those things (like, for example, the Warden client) which you agree to when you click 'Accept' on the EULA/TOS.
Yep vote with you wallet.  Especially when dealing a developer who displays contempt of the player base.

Seems like it be another tool for gold farmers/know-it-alls to harass people.
It's hardly a big enough deal to quit over, I just think it is an inexplicable omission.  Nobody knows who I am and I never post on the blizzard boards so probably the only other person to look at my profile is a guy I met in game who I tend to duo with and since he's a more experienced priest I would appreciate any constructive feedback he had.

And my five percent imaginary number might be too low judging by the huge number of level seven alts posting on the blizzard forums now.  The level one toon isn't just for making rampant troll threads like "OMG BLUE NERF WARLOCKS SIGN MY PETITION", they're everywhere now.
Rithrin
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Reply #62 on: April 10, 2007, 10:42:48 AM

I have to say, I'm amazed. I don't read the WoW forums so the thought that people would be upset over the armory had never even crossed my mind before I read this.

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Dren
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Reply #63 on: April 10, 2007, 10:45:45 AM

Put the opt-out in then.  I really don't care.  In fact, it would help me understand who the hell to stay away from.  If I ever looked somebody up on this thing and it said, "blocked," I'd know that they are one of "them."

The reason I use it is to let people see what I have so I can get feedback or to look at others to see what makes them tick so well.  I've never looked at it to see what makes somebody suck or to "check up on them."  I use it to improve my gameplay.  

I'd love to see the next gripe which is that now people will be labelled as Opt-Outs and they'll complain about being targetted that way.  At least we'll have a tool that will truly mark them for what they truly are!

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Paelos
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Reply #64 on: April 10, 2007, 03:03:45 PM

Put the opt-out in then.  I really don't care.  In fact, it would help me understand who the hell to stay away from.  If I ever looked somebody up on this thing and it said, "blocked," I'd know that they are one of "them."

The reason I use it is to let people see what I have so I can get feedback or to look at others to see what makes them tick so well.  I've never looked at it to see what makes somebody suck or to "check up on them."  I use it to improve my gameplay.  

I'd love to see the next gripe which is that now people will be labelled as Opt-Outs and they'll complain about being targetted that way.  At least we'll have a tool that will truly mark them for what they truly are!

"Are you one of them?"

See, I use it for two reasons, both of which are as a person who rosters raids for my alliance. One reason is to make the call between two people who have similar attendence in their class but I can't take them both. In the old days we had a gearcheck thread which people had to update, but now we have the armory. Sure, an opt-out wouldn't change this factor much because I'd always default to the person who actually paid attention and put their options up for view.

Second, I use it to check up on potential problem children in and out of the alliance. An opt-out here would potentially be large considering that many of them want to hide things such as specs and whatnot. The problem I have mostly with an opt-out is that people who are legitamately lying dickheads can play hurt bunny because they are afraid of *insert whatever BS issue here* with putting up their profile, and therefore try to make me look like the badguy for having a zero-tolerance policy. All this is avoided by just not paying attention to a nutcase minority and forgetting an optout.

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WindupAtheist
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Reply #65 on: April 10, 2007, 08:55:13 PM


"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
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Calantus
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Reply #66 on: April 10, 2007, 11:30:51 PM

Well I guess most people wouldn't gain anything but it wouldn't hurt them either.  The five percent of us paranoid freaks who don't want people to know that we like picking flowers and have an unreasonable fear of what a gaggle of assholes think of us based on our clothing would be happy though.  If the five percent I pulled out of my ass is accurate that's 400,000 happy people.

If you're worried about what people might think of your character all you have to do is not suck. That's the solution to all these problems. If you already do not suck then you have nothing to worry about and should stop being pent up over nothing.

Oh and just about everyone picks flowers in this game because it's the most profitable profession by far so you don't have to worry about that.

I'm going to sit back now and say "no, fuck you" to anyone who asks for an opt-out. I've not seen any valid reason why there should be an opt-out from anyone yet, and I very much doubt you'll be able to come up with one. Everybody can see your gear already, if your spec is shit enough you deserve to be laughed at, nobody gives a damn about your professions, and nobody really cares about your rep unless you're trying to talk like you know something when you obviously have not had enough rep with the applicable factions to know whats up. Infact, if you never post on the WoW forums you will in all likelihood never hear from anyone about your armory profile ever.
Xanthippe
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Reply #67 on: April 11, 2007, 12:20:43 AM

I fail to understand why anyone would care if people opt out or not.  I'm all for letting people do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  I don't have to understand why they want to opt out. 

Why the animosity?  Just because one might not understand why someone else wants to do something doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to do it.

Choices are good.  The ability to opt in or out is good.

I don't understand the hostility.

Calantus
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Reply #68 on: April 11, 2007, 12:44:33 AM

If I was being hostile I would have said some nasty things to the people pushing for an opt-out. I'm attacking the idea because it lessens the armory for no gain whatsoever to my mind. There's nothing in the armory you need to keep private. As far as I can tell its all chicken little sky is falling craziness.
Phred
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Reply #69 on: April 11, 2007, 12:46:50 AM

Seems like it be another tool for gold farmers/know-it-alls to harass people.

Cause gold farmers are so active in the forums.

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