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f13.net General Forums => World of Warcraft => Topic started by: Venkman on April 08, 2007, 08:39:15 AM



Title: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Venkman on April 08, 2007, 08:39:15 AM
Blizzard apparently pissed people off with the Tinfoil April Fool's thing and the Armory. I don't read the oboards (I have Barrens/Shadowmoon chat for that shit). So, aside from "the principal of invaded privacy" most emotional vitriol seems tied up in, is there any actual mechanical advantage someone can get by looking up someone else's profile on the Armory?

I'm asking because I first bothered paying attention to this because it spawned one of the longest comments threads I've seen over at Lum's digs.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Oban on April 08, 2007, 09:21:16 AM
Well, it used to let one know if the mage in the arena match is ice, fire or arcane and switch armour before the match officially begins.  Also, balance, feral or resto Druid?   If resto, focus fire.  A little bit of an advantage, but it reduced the "luck" factor.  I am pretty sure the ability to see one's opponents in the combat log before the match began was patched out recently.

For pve, it really lets guilds know all about the character.  No more bluffing about specs in raids and reduces the need for the infamous "Ironforge gear checks" during recruitment drives.  I think the biggest issue is the talent spec check. I know with my Druid I used to claim to be resto (pre-loltree) but would have the majority of my points in feral talents.  For post-bc, it lets guilds quickly check to see if you are keyed for heroics.



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Zetor on April 08, 2007, 10:25:16 AM
You can also see what instances the player's been [pre and post BC] in by checking their rep. For example, if they aren't revered with any major BC faction, they haven't run a heroic yet...


-- Z.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Calantus on April 08, 2007, 11:46:06 AM
You see a lot of people getting laughed at on the official forums because they've said something about PVP and someone looked up their honor kills, arena ranking, terrible spec, or whathaveyou. People trying to flat out bluff their experiences have been caught out a few times too suggesting that I guess not everyone knows about armory until they try to lie about what they have.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Venkman on April 08, 2007, 12:10:58 PM
So is that the main reason people are pissed? Because they can't bluff anymore? That's it?!


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Merusk on April 08, 2007, 12:50:11 PM
So is that the main reason people are pissed? Because they can't bluff anymore? That's it?!

That and the aforementioned PvP-check. Yep, that's it.

Well, then there's also the psycho minority who want games to go as far as removing /inspect because it also invades their privacy.  Or did you forget the hullabaloo that used to cause?

So I guess that's not "It" but it is a major reason folks seem to take issue with it. Ditto for /inspect.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 08, 2007, 03:54:51 PM
I mentioned in that thread that I don't get it.  Another 30 replies later and I still don't get it.  It's fucking weak ass to complain about armory.

Even for PvP.

Seriously, in the Arena, who actually can manage to get the other players to come up in the Armory in 30 seconds ?  I can't even look myself up in that fucking time.

I applaud Blizzard for 'The Tinfoil Hat' precisely because it tells their customers to shut the fuck up.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Venkman on April 08, 2007, 04:40:21 PM
That's the reason I wanted to resurrect your question Ironwood. I don't get it either and like you have semi-watched that thread grow in size without substance. I appreciate people are charged up, but their entire argument is based in emotion. I knew I'd get a straighter answer from the folks here.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Phred on April 08, 2007, 06:14:52 PM

So I guess that's not "It" but it is a major reason folks seem to take issue with it. Ditto for /inspect.

Actually I think the main reason ppl hated /insepect was the dumb message so-and-so is inspecting you. if Eq had never put in that message I doubt it ever would have been an issue. The best thing I see from armory is less ppl claiming to have umpty thousand atk and 50% crit anymore.





Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Trippy on April 08, 2007, 06:28:33 PM
So I guess that's not "It" but it is a major reason folks seem to take issue with it. Ditto for /inspect.
Actually I think the main reason ppl hated /insepect was the dumb message so-and-so is inspecting you. if Eq had never put in that message I doubt it ever would have been an issue. The best thing I see from armory is less ppl claiming to have umpty thousand atk and 50% crit anymore.
As a sidenote "inspect spamming" in EQ was a good way to disconnect somebody on a dial-up, back in the day. We used to do it to disconnect people who had FAAK.

Edit: extra somebody


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Phred on April 08, 2007, 06:44:17 PM
Ya I remember complaints of people using it in the BotB competition to lag out their opponents to make them lose the fights.



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: ajax34i on April 08, 2007, 06:54:49 PM
Yup, you can check rep and figure out which instances someone's been to.  You can also (mostly if you know the name of the character) follow them from server to server if they switch servers (even if they change name, race+gender+class+exactfactionsetup = fingerprint).  You can laugh at morons on the boards (the Armory is one click away, just click their portrait, and voila, info), and this has happened a lot, especially on the general discussion forums, where derision about someone's build or factions is incorporated into how they get flamed now.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Venkman on April 08, 2007, 07:55:46 PM
I have no sympathy for people who lie about what they've done to win some e-peen argument against forgettable faceless opponents. There's probably a lower form of insecurity, but I can't think of one. They probably were the same people who'd roll a level 1 character as their posting name so they could lie about their three level 60/t2-3 alts. There's no reason to design anything for them. They're stuck in WoW no matter how much Blizzard slaps them around.

Trippy, what's FAAK? I tried to look it up but could only find people using the expression. What's it stand for? I never got into PvP or much endgame raiding in EQ1. Never even hit the endgame, no matter where it was (finally gave up at 48 when the cap was, I think, 65).


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Trippy on April 08, 2007, 08:11:31 PM
FAAK = Fallen/ing Asleep At Keyboard


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Paelos on April 08, 2007, 08:58:25 PM
The only people that would complain about the armory are lying douchebags and powergaming nutcases who think they actually own their characters. Both of them can take a big ole steaming spoonful of STFU everyday in my book.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Merusk on April 08, 2007, 09:00:53 PM
I have no sympathy for people who lie about what they've done to win some e-peen argument against forgettable faceless opponents. There's probably a lower form of insecurity, but I can't think of one. They probably were the same people who'd roll a level 1 character as their posting name so they could lie about their three level 60/t2-3 alts. There's no reason to design anything for them. They're stuck in WoW no matter how much Blizzard slaps them around.

The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy.  He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: ajax34i on April 08, 2007, 10:30:46 PM
Ahh.  One of the first replies has a link (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=86645472&postId=865791505&sid=1#0) to someone compiling some information, and then laughing at people's gear.  Even though it's just character names, and not accounts or RL names, it still destroys the anonymity of the Internet for those people.  They can now be harrassed in-game.

Problem is that the data is now available via the web browser, which can be modded, so to speak, to hell and back, for serious data mining and auctioneer-like databases, and none of the restrictions and controls that are normally part of the client are possible, nor is there an eula that can be applied or a link to an account that can be banned, for the person collecting the data.

The info can be used (to laugh at idiots) or exploited (to laugh at / harrass you), and once your character is found, and people start logging into your server and sending you tells from nameless alts, it's pretty much over.



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Triforcer on April 08, 2007, 11:46:01 PM
Ahh.  One of the first replies has a link (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=86645472&postId=865791505&sid=1#0) to someone compiling some information, and then laughing at people's gear.  Even though it's just character names, and not accounts or RL names, it still destroys the anonymity of the Internet for those people.  They can now be harrassed in-game.

Problem is that the data is now available via the web browser, which can be modded, so to speak, to hell and back, for serious data mining and auctioneer-like databases, and none of the restrictions and controls that are normally part of the client are possible, nor is there an eula that can be applied or a link to an account that can be banned, for the person collecting the data.

The info can be used (to laugh at idiots) or exploited (to laugh at / harrass you), and once your character is found, and people start logging into your server and sending you tells from nameless alts, it's pretty much over.



??  I'm not sure what you are saying here.  You are claiming that someone will have gear SO BAD that dozens or hundreds of people will log on to their server and laugh at them?  Even ignoring /ignore for the moment, I'm not seeing this as happening.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Phred on April 09, 2007, 04:48:12 AM



??  I'm not sure what you are saying here.  You are claiming that someone will have gear SO BAD that dozens or hundreds of people will log on to their server and laugh at them?  Even ignoring /ignore for the moment, I'm not seeing this as happening.

Ya, if that ever happened my first thought would be what the hell did you do to piss people off that much.



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Phred on April 09, 2007, 04:49:12 AM
Ahh.  One of the first replies has a link (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=86645472&postId=865791505&sid=1#0) to someone compiling some information, and then laughing at people's gear.  Even though it's just character names, and not accounts or RL names, it still destroys the anonymity of the Internet for those people.  They can now be harrassed in-game.

Problem is that the data is now available via the web browser, which can be modded, so to speak, to hell and back, for serious data mining and auctioneer-like databases, and none of the restrictions and controls that are normally part of the client are possible, nor is there an eula that can be applied or a link to an account that can be banned, for the person collecting the data.

The info can be used (to laugh at idiots) or exploited (to laugh at / harrass you), and once your character is found, and people start logging into your server and sending you tells from nameless alts, it's pretty much over. The boards have always listed people's real char names, level and server so if someone wanted to log in to their server to harrass them, having a bit of info from the armory is hardly gonna hurt much.




??  I'm not sure what you are saying here.  You are claiming that someone will have gear SO BAD that dozens or hundreds of people will log on to their server and laugh at them?  Even ignoring /ignore for the moment, I'm not seeing this as happening.


Ya my first question if this ever happened would be what the heck did you do to piss ppl off so badly they would go out of their way to do this.

edit: damn quotes. that'll teach me not to preview on late night posts.



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Merusk on April 09, 2007, 06:21:33 AM
Thus, the tinfoil hat, Tri. 

That level of conspiracy and effort, just to harass random people?  Anyone that mean-spirited would rather just start yelling racial slurs and cursing in general to get a rise out of people.  Anyone SO concerned that their spec/ gear/ whatever is going to get them laughed-at really needs to revisit their attachment to the game.

(Phred has been pwnd by the quote feature. Poor Phred.)


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Venkman on April 09, 2007, 07:11:47 AM
People were getting mocked and ridiculed on the oboards before the game even entered beta. To them, Armory is just another tool. It's the main reason oboards of a popular game are never really representive of the playerbase at large.

Quote from: Merusk
The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy. He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.
I can't speak for him of course. But my take is that his point was about bad community managment practices. He may or not see the Armory as a bad thing, but his post seemed to be about how you really shouldn't prod already emotionally-charged people in the way they did.

I somewhat agree. Bad as the oboards are, they still represent some of the most invested players Blizzard has, by sheer virtue of them taking their game beyond the game.

But this April Fools thing is just one minor part of the much larger issue Blizzard has in community management. They just don't seem to care all that much about it. There's a reason why the oboards are largely a festering pile of crap. Uncontrolled noise makers always collectively amp the volume.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Dren on April 09, 2007, 07:46:58 AM
I've only had good things come from the Armory so far.  I invite people to look at my profiles and laugh at me.  Like I really care?  In fact, laughing at me actually helps me, like when one of you guys casually noticed I had my better dagger in my off-hand for instance.  Errr, whoops!  Thanks!  :-)

The only thing I can see that might have an impact is PvP, but I agree that it would take way to long to research every single match-up you do before it happens.  Let's just say you did do the research and got some kind of edge?  Who cares, it just makes that one match a little better for you.  The first match with anyone will tell you what they are specced based on their style and the powers they use.  If you are so obsessed with winning that you furiously go research the internet to get an advantage before each fight, then you will be obsessed with writing down the results of every match you're had too!

To me, this just evens the playing ground for people that aren't that crazy.  Go in and fight.  If you found that person hard to beat, then go research their profile and see what makes them tick.  You'll be better prepared for them next time....I guess.  That just seems like a whole lot of work for little gain to me.  Most PvPers I know use practice to get better, which doesn't leave a lot of time going in and out of the game to find out somebody's exact spec.  You're going to need to face 100's of opponents to get anything good from the PvP rewards, so why bother?

The rest of the complaints revolve around fooling people into believing something they are not.  I have no sympathy for that.  I have no problems with the Armory.

As for Lum's beef?  Yeah, poking fun at your customers is not good, but I've found the humor from Blizzard somewhat refreshing.  I'm biased though.  I just cannot imagine getting that upset over a game.  I just can't.  My thought is that Blizzards basically saying that they really aren't interested in people becoming THAT obsessed with their game.  I certainly try to avoid people like that, including having anything to do with the official forums.

Some of Lum's outrage may come from the fact that his project will someday come to light and he'll be in the spotlight.  He certainly cannot show any type of support for this type of action.  It is much safer for him to feel for the people, or something.  Most of the things he writes about when it comes to games revolves around trying to learn from the experience for his own benefit later on, or that's how I read it anyway.  He's showing that he's playing all these different games and trying to take the best from them and leaving the worst behind.  This is just part of that.  I applaud him for that.

I still just cannot understand the ire though.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Triforcer on April 09, 2007, 09:35:40 AM
I've now went and read some of the Armory-hatin' threads.  I am unsatisfied because nobody has raised their constitutional right to privacy.  It arouses me when people assert their constitutional rights on gaming message boards.  Hell, I'm writing my entire 3L thesis on whether the people who say "IF BLIZ NERFS MY CHAR I PAYED 500 DOLLARS FOR I SUE" have any legal hope. 


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Hutch on April 09, 2007, 09:37:47 AM
I think the outrage expressed by the players over the April Fool's joke was just a drop in the bucket, where the bucket represents the overall bitching about the Armory itself.

Lum seems to think that you shouldn't make fun of your customers. I think that some customers are more trouble than they're worth, and I also think that if you can't pop off to them every once in a while, then your job just becomes more like drudgery and less like something you enjoy doing.

And it was an April Fool's joke. A joke. Lighten up, psycho WoW players.





Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lum on April 09, 2007, 09:45:43 AM
The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy.  He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.

No, I'm more concerned not only that Blizzard felt it acceptable to mock a segment of their users, but that many feel that's perfectly OK. Whereas if SOE did the same thing, a jihad would have been mounted. Situational ethics == bad.

As far as the actual Armory privacy implications - I couldn't care less personally, although I think it says something that Blizzard refuses to put in an opt-out. Probably for the same reason they won't implement /anon. Someone there seriously disagrees with online privacy.

In any event work has been keeping me busy but I should have an update soon with more. The vehemence shown on this topic on both sides is... interesting.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Mesozoic on April 09, 2007, 10:00:36 AM
Blizz has always had that kind of snarky humor.  People will forgive a lot from a competent company.  If there's anything to lose, its a few subscribers getting irritated and leaving, and thats Blizzard's own loss.  The rest of us laugh because we know how stupid people can act on the internet. 


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Paelos on April 09, 2007, 10:16:53 AM
The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy.  He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.

No, I'm more concerned not only that Blizzard felt it acceptable to mock a segment of their users, but that many feel that's perfectly OK. Whereas if SOE did the same thing, a jihad would have been mounted. Situational ethics == bad.

As far as the actual Armory privacy implications - I couldn't care less personally, although I think it says something that Blizzard refuses to put in an opt-out. Probably for the same reason they won't implement /anon. Someone there seriously disagrees with online privacy.

In any event work has been keeping me busy but I should have an update soon with more. The vehemence shown on this topic on both sides is... interesting.

I think they don't put in an opt-out because it really is something they want the playerbase to have access to as a useful tool, and an opt-out would turn it into something completely pointless. I know I've used it as a raider to gauge my group's gear vs. people's gear that I know have beaten certain fights. It's very helpful in that regard to benchmark yourself against the populace to improve what you have in pve content. I know I've found utility in certain items that I wouldn't have used or known about without the Armory's help, and it also gives the frontrunner leveling community a place to fly their flag high for the server.

I can see some uses for it in pvp, but not as many as I think people might suggest. I think the vehemence from this community about people complaining over this is because we know there is really no such thing as ownership of a character in these games. We've learned that, we're mature enough to handle that fact, and we understand that we live and die by the whim of Blizzard. We are also supremely snarky, and we love watching the unwashed masses squirm under the development gods' flashlights while they have their own lies and misrepresentations of themselves brought to bear. "I know what I'm talking about because I'm awesome and I have all my T4 gear," won't fly anymore when we all know you're a sack of crap. Then again, anyone that spends enough time on official boards to care about this is automatically in our shit list here because they are participating in a wretched hive of scum and villany we wouldn't saunter into with a hazmat suit.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 09, 2007, 10:37:08 AM
I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature.  The reason has nothing to do with bragging about gear/rep as I have never done that (both suck since I only resubbed last month and had to go from 40-70) and I don't PvP so the somewhat legitimate concerns from that are irrelevant for me (I mean opposite factions can't /inspect eachother in game so why on earth should they be allowed to do it online and also get to see their talent spec).

The tinfoil hat thing, while funny, crossed a line between poking fun and being insulting.  The problem was that blizzard's web team were the ones who made the armory and they are also the ones who did the tinfoil hat.  They obviously got all pissy that so many people dislike the creation they must have spent months working on and decided to get bitchy with their customers.  It would be like the class developers giving whichever class is whining the most this month an item called "The World's Smallest Violin".

They should enable the armory by default so that the vast majority that don't care have it enabled and those that don't want to have it exposed can disable it.  That way if someone is bragging you can call them on it or demand they prove it by allowing people to view their armory, if they refuse then they are obviously lying.  If your guild has certain minimum gear/rep then make part of the process to apply be that their armory be visible while being considered.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Jayce on April 09, 2007, 10:47:52 AM
I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature.

I'm curious as to why you don't like it, if not for the reasons you state that you DON'T not like it for here.


As for online privacy, to me it doesn't quite seem to apply here.  There's a difference between the privacy of your real personal information and your game character's personal information.  It seems a little silly to apply privacy to a game character.  It's like someone getting bent out of shape that we can't cloak our postcount numbers or last online date on a web forum.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Nebu on April 09, 2007, 10:50:58 AM
People that want privacy seem to want it for the wrong reasons.  a) to allow them to roll on gear for alts or cash b) to overstate their accomplishments c) both. 

The pvp reason is the only one I can see as semi-valid and even that isn't a big deal. 


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Dren on April 09, 2007, 10:52:30 AM
All an opt-out means for me is that I won't use The Armory.  You'll weaken the tool itself.  The people that will go out of their way to opt-out are exactly the people that need to be in there.

- Lieing about their gear.
- The best gear from raiders that don't want other people to know what the next highest bar is (see Paelo's post.)


I suppose it could be used as a means of saying, "Either show us or shut up!" to rat out liars, but at that point it begins to become a mental slap fight.  

"Ha ha!  Only newbs opt-in!"


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Paelos on April 09, 2007, 11:14:07 AM
The tinfoil hat thing, while funny, crossed a line between poking fun and being insulting.  The problem was that blizzard's web team were the ones who made the armory and they are also the ones who did the tinfoil hat.  They obviously got all pissy that so many people dislike the creation they must have spent months working on and decided to get bitchy with their customers.  It would be like the class developers giving whichever class is whining the most this month an item called "The World's Smallest Violin".

I still have a very "boo-freaking-hoo" attitude towards this. It's not the same as a class rep at all. Class reps are there to give information and try to help their playerbase understand changes in a diplomatic situation. The tinfoil hat was an obvious joke that even you admitted was funny, and it was targeted at people who have obviously had a break with the reality of their gaming situation. It was targetting the nutballs, not a whole class of players like druids. It wasn't even a pissy joke, it was just like a "We honestly never thought people would care this much, here's your hat nutcases."

Honestly, I'm with the others here on find me a good reason to not have this that doesn't revolve around some kind of crazy 1984 logic or isn't about someone lying to make themselves feel better.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Oban on April 09, 2007, 11:40:13 AM
Wait... you are shocked that Blizzard can get away with mocking their customers?

I do not think it is situational ethics, Blizzard always mocks themselves and their customers.  Sony, in the past, has just... I don't know, shat on everyone and everything.

Blizzard poked fun at the ultra-hardcore perma-death folks (vanguard?) last year with:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/townhall/wisps.html (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/townhall/wisps.html)

and eq2/catasses the year before that with:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/pandaren-xpress.html (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/pandaren-xpress.html)

and stupid gameplay mechanic suggestions the year before that with:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/races/two-headed-ogre.shtml (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/races/two-headed-ogre.shtml)

and so on and so forth...

This compares to Sony's past humorous items like...?

Really apples and oranges.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lantyssa on April 09, 2007, 11:51:16 AM
I cannot see any claim to privacy being valid.  No player owns anything about their character.  It is Blizzard's data to do with as they please.  Welcome to the EULA argument of past years.

The tin foil hat was slightly amusing, but I fail to see how it is any different than what they always do.  They poke fun at everything.  If someone is offended by the joke hitting too close to home, as opposed to worrying about other's threatment at the hands of the company, then they are in need of a reality check anyways.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Merusk on April 09, 2007, 12:35:21 PM
The odd question is, why does Lum feel the need to cater to their whimsy.  He seems baffled that Blizzard's saying 'nahhh' more than their irreverence for their customer base.

No, I'm more concerned not only that Blizzard felt it acceptable to mock a segment of their users, but that many feel that's perfectly OK. Whereas if SOE did the same thing, a jihad would have been mounted. Situational ethics == bad.

As far as the actual Armory privacy implications - I couldn't care less personally, although I think it says something that Blizzard refuses to put in an opt-out. Probably for the same reason they won't implement /anon. Someone there seriously disagrees with online privacy.

In any event work has been keeping me busy but I should have an update soon with more. The vehemence shown on this topic on both sides is... interesting.

Ah, see I obviously didn't get that at all.   I can understand your situational ethics argument, because I know you're absolutly right that there's a segment who'd villify SOE if they ever did the same thing.  The key difference, though, is that SOE has always been so hardassed and corporate, never showing the same spark of humor.  I'm sure it exsistis in the company, it's just not expressed.

   If they had the same irreverent history, even with all the past ill-will I don't think it'd be taken as seriously.  However, we're now talking about alternate realities so that's rather pointless.



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lum on April 09, 2007, 02:57:30 PM
So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Nebu on April 09, 2007, 03:00:22 PM
So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

Many games exist with a "view" command that serves a very similar function, but I don't think it has the level of detail that the Armory has.  Not to sound like a total noob, but isn't there a "view" command of sorts in WoW already?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Mesozoic on April 09, 2007, 03:03:33 PM
So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

Like the "inspect" option? 

I suppose talents, professions and rep aren't viewable, but it never occurred to me that it was that way because those things needed to be hidden for some reason. 

And why does it have to be essential?  Can't it just be interesting and enlightening?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Valmorian on April 09, 2007, 03:05:11 PM
So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

It's probably no more essential than, say, a web interface that displayed rosters of Guild members with kill numbers beside them, and maps of RvR areas with who owned which keep.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lum on April 09, 2007, 03:10:56 PM
Well played, sirrah!

Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers. That's what I'm getting at. If it's a core game system, it should be in the game, no? And if not, then it's.... not a core game system. DAOC would have been perfectly playable without RvR stats pages.

While many PvP players and raiders quickly adopted the Armory as an essential tool, I suspect it wasn't intended by Blizzard to be as core as its advocates are claiming.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: MrHat on April 09, 2007, 03:27:30 PM
DAOC would have been perfectly playable without RvR stats pages.

But then, would everyone have played?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Trouble on April 09, 2007, 03:46:46 PM
Well played, sirrah!

Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers. That's what I'm getting at. If it's a core game system, it should be in the game, no? And if not, then it's.... not a core game system. DAOC would have been perfectly playable without RvR stats pages.

While many PvP players and raiders quickly adopted the Armory as an essential tool, I suspect it wasn't intended by Blizzard to be as core as its advocates are claiming.

I question this as well. Just to put it out there, I am all for the Armory tool. I love it. I'm an internet stalker and I'm also an officer in an end-game raiding guild that is responsible for recruitment and it makes my job a hell of a lot easier. But still, I'm just very curious what the goal of the Armory was from Blizzard's point of view. Was it just something "cool" they thought of? They've always put a lot of work into their website with countless guides and lore. Blizzard has more on their website than probably any game out there by a large margin, so it might just be "another thing". It certainly didn't come from the customers asking for it, but it definitely is something that many like now that it's here. I guess I'm just curious because most people aren't used to game companies, especially MMOs, going out of their way to provide extra features at no cost that weren't even really asked for. Makes me think there was some sort of bigger motivation there to do it but I can't figure out what it is.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: MrHat on April 09, 2007, 04:00:18 PM
I always figured they did what they do with all their UI developments.  See what the community comes up with on their own, then implement it their own way (see: CTProfiles).


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Hutch on April 09, 2007, 04:01:10 PM
Well played, sirrah!

Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers.


Granted that I haven't read all of the posts in all of the threads yet, but I haven't read anyone saying this. You may have been exaggerating to make a point, I dunno.

It would be more accurate to say that allowing anyone to opt out causes the Armory itself to suffer.
But then we'd have to figure out what the Armory is for.

Which brings me to...
Quote
If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

Perhaps we should add "for now" to the end of that sentence.
Maybe they have a plan for the Armory. I'm sure I'm not the first to think up the idea of a plug-in that lets you look up Armory data in-game.

Or maybe, they've just created it as a tool. A data source. Something to put out there, and see what their legion of unpaid 3rd party developers (aka the player base) will do with it.

(Doh MrHat made this last point while I was writing it.)


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Jayce on April 09, 2007, 04:03:14 PM

Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers.

If you are referring to what Paelos said earlier in the thread (and not the general feeling on the oboards or somewhere else I don't read), then I think the argument as stated is slightly wrong.  An Armory without 100% participation would cause the ARMORY to suffer, but not the game.  Obviously we've played the game for three or whatever years now without it, so the game could give a flip.

It is an extremely cool tool, but essential?  Not really.  And without 100% participation it would be (a little/moderately/substantially, depending on who you ask) less cool.

edit: point to Hutch.  Maybe I should not just blindly hit "reply" when I get that red text.  I guess it's fair play though, because Hutch did it to Hat in turn.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Rasix on April 09, 2007, 04:11:26 PM
Goddamn warrior in my group on Friday insisted on tanking.  With 8K less amor apparently (he's in his tank gear in the profile).  And 2.5K less HP. And he said he was MS specced at that time (prot now).   :x

I find the concept of opting out of the armory a little humorous.  I would chuckle of someone tried to armoryown me if I was wearing offspec gear. 


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Hutch on April 09, 2007, 04:15:37 PM
Goddamn warrior in my group on Friday insisted on tanking.  With 8K less amor apparently (he's in his tank gear in the profile).  And 2.5K less HP. And he said he was MS specced at that time (prot now).   :x

I find the concept of opting out of the armory a little humorous.  I would chuckle of someone tried to armoryown me if I was wearing offspec gear. 

That reminds me of something else I thought of. If it doesn't already exist, don't be surprised when a plugin appears to auto-swap your gear when you log out ;)


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Paelos on April 09, 2007, 04:37:50 PM

Except that in this case, the argument against allowing anyone to opt out is that without an Armory with 100% participation the game itself suffers.

If you are referring to what Paelos said earlier in the thread (and not the general feeling on the oboards or somewhere else I don't read), then I think the argument as stated is slightly wrong.  An Armory without 100% participation would cause the ARMORY to suffer, but not the game.  Obviously we've played the game for three or whatever years now without it, so the game could give a flip.

This was the point I was making. I said it was something that Blizzard intended as a useful tool, and an opt-out makes it useless. Is it essential? Absoutely not, but why throw the baby out with the bathwater because a few people don't like being outed as a lying dog. If anything, perhaps it gets those people to become more honest. People won't quit in large numbers over this no matter how much they bitch, and Blizzard is well in touch with that fact. So they joke about it. Honestly, if anything it makes me happier as a customer that we can call BS on people that I've always disliked for being shady bastards, and I intend to continue my subscription as long as they continue to absorb good ideas (like CTprofiles) into their own system.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Merusk on April 09, 2007, 05:39:44 PM
Here's a thought on why Blizzard put in the armory.

To take-back some control.

Time and time again we've seen fan sites, spoiler sites, etc gobbled-up by the likes of IGE and their ilk.  The next step is for them to start taking over CTprofiles and other such sites which were already frequently used by larger raiding guilds who didn't want to mess with such profiling tools on their own sites.  Providing the Armory prior to this happening means there's no need for anyone to use those sites, so there's no place for IGE to dig their tentacles deeper into the gaming community.

But that's a pretty tinfoil hat reason.

Still, the only reason to 'hate' it is because you're getting caught in your own lies.  Ditto if Blizzard were to suddenly disallow posting on multiple characters, or add a link to ALL your characters when posting.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Chenghiz on April 09, 2007, 05:54:01 PM
CTprofiles is sill superior in some ways (or will be when they finally make sockets work) because it can track different sets and can also be used to theorycraft about gear you might want but don't have. When the Armory is less bloated (seriously why does my browser freeze using that shit) and has those features, I'll use it instead.

I really don't buy these 'privacy' arguments because the only information it makes public is still within the context of the game and is really of no more import than simply walking up to a guy and inspecting him. If you could find out a guy's account name or real-life name or something similar from a feature like the Armory, then I would have a serious issue with it. As it is... 'Hi kids, it's a game.'


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Jayce on April 09, 2007, 10:37:30 PM
(seriously why does my browser freeze using that shit) .

I think it's because they expose it all as xml and then convert it on the page.  That is a sort of silly way to present it, except that it lends itself to third party sites or programs being able to grab the data and display it their own way.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Trouble on April 10, 2007, 12:21:31 AM
It also reduces the load on the server because it has to spend less processing power and bandwidth formatting it into html and all that crap.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Calantus on April 10, 2007, 12:33:55 AM
It would be like the class developers giving whichever class is whining the most this month an item called "The World's Smallest Violin".

They should do this. Actually they already did something similar with the voodoo dolls that drop in ZG. The paladin one used to read "resembles a paladin or an adolescent girl" back when paladins used to bitch incessantly (has it changed?), but they took it out when people complained. Frankly I think people need to stiffen their spines a little and not take offence so easily in general so I really have no sympathy when people object to such jokes. I like that Blizzard is able to poke fun at themselves and others, it's nice to know that a company in the entertainment industry can have a little fun like that. I mean seriously; McWeaksauce, Captain Placeholder, Watcher Backus, broken "I Win" button, nubless pacifier, etc. Blizzard is just not a company that takes itself or the game seriously in general.

I'd object to SoE doing it because they don't have a soul or a humorous bone in their bodies and could only do it for malice. :cthulu:


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 10, 2007, 04:17:16 AM
So here's a question.

If the data provided by the Armory is so essential to the WoW gaming experience, why is it only accessible out of game?

Here's another :  Who says it is ?


Edited to Add:  Tho I do agree that bitching about SOE doing the same thing merely makes a fool out of the person doing so.  I wonder, Lum, how much of your feeling is due to the fact that you, as an NCSoft bod, would probably not 'get away' with the same stuff ?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Dren on April 10, 2007, 08:01:52 AM
It has been said already, but I wanted to clarify my own position.  I'm not saying The Armory is essential for the game.  I don't know why they put it in, but I like to use it.  If people could opt-out, it would weaken The Armory, thus making it useless, so why have it?  There are plenty of other sites to get that information from that work quicker (as said before.)

The Armory has an advantage over all the others in that it is as powerful as it can be in terms of raw data.  The other sites don't have that advantage.  Again, do we HAVE to have the Armory?  Nope, but I appreciate it.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Simond on April 10, 2007, 09:28:56 AM
I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature. 
But there is an opt-out function - it's called the "Cancel Account" button.
Otherwise The Armoury is just another one of those things (like, for example, the Warden client) which you agree to when you click 'Accept' on the EULA/TOS.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 10, 2007, 09:56:06 AM
Lum, wash the sand out of your vagina.  Nobody gives a fuck about the deluded bleating of a few catasses who think showing their Longsword of Pwnage on the web violates their "privacy" somehow.  Not even Blizzard, and good on them for telling the crybabies to STFU.

EDIT:  Half of this "Look how pissed they are!" thread you linked to from your blog consists of people telling the initial poster that he's a crybaby and should STFU.  Go figure.

EDIT:  More like three-quarters or more, as I continue to read.  Seriously, it's like two people being offended by the tinfoil hat, and four-hundred other people calling them humorless losers.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 10, 2007, 10:00:48 AM
Look, I'm not against the Armory itself, I just don't see why there can't be an option to leave it.  I have used it myself to look up other shadow priests and I have respecced since the veterens all seem to put enough points into the discipline tree to get inner focus and meditation.

I would really like to hear the reasons why an opt out would make the whole thing "worthless".  You should be able to log in and there will be a drop down with the following options:
- Expose to all
- Expose only to guild/friendslist
- Expose only to guild
- Private

The default would be expose to all, the EQ2/Vanguard sites that do the same thing are worthless because the default is "Private" and since very few people bother to log in and change that most everyone is private.  Since 80% of people don't care or don't even know about the armory all their info will be out there.

The top end raiders want their gear to show, they want to show it off, they will not be hiding it.  And even if this bizarre idea that they would hide it to protect secrets was true they can already do that, they use itemrack to switch to naked and then log off.

People who brag about having +1600 spell damage or being exalted with whoever but hide their profiles would be laughed off the boards, the community would create a new word for these people specifically tailored to insult them.  They would have less credibility than a person giving advice who has crappy gear but at least lets people know it.

Inside a guild you can enforce your own armory policy if you like, just be up front about it.  If someone doesn't open it up then tell them to leave.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Jayce on April 10, 2007, 10:10:46 AM
stuff

OK, you make a pretty good case as to why it wouldn't be worthless if we had the options you specify.

Now I'm curious what we would gain if we had those options (besides a few entertaining drama threads by people professing uberness but hiding their profiles).


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: tazelbain on April 10, 2007, 10:19:04 AM
I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature.
But there is an opt-out function - it's called the "Cancel Account" button.
Otherwise The Armoury is just another one of those things (like, for example, the Warden client) which you agree to when you click 'Accept' on the EULA/TOS.
Yep vote with you wallet.  Especially when dealing a developer who displays contempt of the player base.

Seems like it be another tool for gold farmers/know-it-alls to harass people.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 10, 2007, 10:30:49 AM
OK, you make a pretty good case as to why it wouldn't be worthless if we had the options you specify.

Now I'm curious what we would gain if we had those options (besides a few entertaining drama threads by people professing uberness but hiding their profiles).
Well I guess most people wouldn't gain anything but it wouldn't hurt them either.  The five percent of us paranoid freaks who don't want people to know that we like picking flowers and have an unreasonable fear of what a gaggle of assholes think of us based on our clothing would be happy though.  If the five percent I pulled out of my ass is accurate that's 400,000 happy people.

I don't like the armory and there is no valid excuse for the absence of an opt out feature.
But there is an opt-out function - it's called the "Cancel Account" button.
Otherwise The Armoury is just another one of those things (like, for example, the Warden client) which you agree to when you click 'Accept' on the EULA/TOS.
Yep vote with you wallet.  Especially when dealing a developer who displays contempt of the player base.

Seems like it be another tool for gold farmers/know-it-alls to harass people.
It's hardly a big enough deal to quit over, I just think it is an inexplicable omission.  Nobody knows who I am and I never post on the blizzard boards so probably the only other person to look at my profile is a guy I met in game who I tend to duo with and since he's a more experienced priest I would appreciate any constructive feedback he had.

And my five percent imaginary number might be too low judging by the huge number of level seven alts posting on the blizzard forums now.  The level one toon isn't just for making rampant troll threads like "OMG BLUE NERF WARLOCKS SIGN MY PETITION", they're everywhere now.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Rithrin on April 10, 2007, 10:42:48 AM
I have to say, I'm amazed. I don't read the WoW forums so the thought that people would be upset over the armory had never even crossed my mind before I read this.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Dren on April 10, 2007, 10:45:45 AM
Put the opt-out in then.  I really don't care.  In fact, it would help me understand who the hell to stay away from.  If I ever looked somebody up on this thing and it said, "blocked," I'd know that they are one of "them."

The reason I use it is to let people see what I have so I can get feedback or to look at others to see what makes them tick so well.  I've never looked at it to see what makes somebody suck or to "check up on them."  I use it to improve my gameplay.  

I'd love to see the next gripe which is that now people will be labelled as Opt-Outs and they'll complain about being targetted that way.  At least we'll have a tool that will truly mark them for what they truly are!

"Are you one of them?"


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Paelos on April 10, 2007, 03:03:45 PM
Put the opt-out in then.  I really don't care.  In fact, it would help me understand who the hell to stay away from.  If I ever looked somebody up on this thing and it said, "blocked," I'd know that they are one of "them."

The reason I use it is to let people see what I have so I can get feedback or to look at others to see what makes them tick so well.  I've never looked at it to see what makes somebody suck or to "check up on them."  I use it to improve my gameplay.  

I'd love to see the next gripe which is that now people will be labelled as Opt-Outs and they'll complain about being targetted that way.  At least we'll have a tool that will truly mark them for what they truly are!

"Are you one of them?"

See, I use it for two reasons, both of which are as a person who rosters raids for my alliance. One reason is to make the call between two people who have similar attendence in their class but I can't take them both. In the old days we had a gearcheck thread which people had to update, but now we have the armory. Sure, an opt-out wouldn't change this factor much because I'd always default to the person who actually paid attention and put their options up for view.

Second, I use it to check up on potential problem children in and out of the alliance. An opt-out here would potentially be large considering that many of them want to hide things such as specs and whatnot. The problem I have mostly with an opt-out is that people who are legitamately lying dickheads can play hurt bunny because they are afraid of *insert whatever BS issue here* with putting up their profile, and therefore try to make me look like the badguy for having a zero-tolerance policy. All this is avoided by just not paying attention to a nutcase minority and forgetting an optout.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 10, 2007, 08:55:13 PM
nutcase minority

I have a movie they should see.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0182769/


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Calantus on April 10, 2007, 11:30:51 PM
Well I guess most people wouldn't gain anything but it wouldn't hurt them either.  The five percent of us paranoid freaks who don't want people to know that we like picking flowers and have an unreasonable fear of what a gaggle of assholes think of us based on our clothing would be happy though.  If the five percent I pulled out of my ass is accurate that's 400,000 happy people.

If you're worried about what people might think of your character all you have to do is not suck. That's the solution to all these problems. If you already do not suck then you have nothing to worry about and should stop being pent up over nothing.

Oh and just about everyone picks flowers in this game because it's the most profitable profession by far so you don't have to worry about that.

I'm going to sit back now and say "no, fuck you" to anyone who asks for an opt-out. I've not seen any valid reason why there should be an opt-out from anyone yet, and I very much doubt you'll be able to come up with one. Everybody can see your gear already, if your spec is shit enough you deserve to be laughed at, nobody gives a damn about your professions, and nobody really cares about your rep unless you're trying to talk like you know something when you obviously have not had enough rep with the applicable factions to know whats up. Infact, if you never post on the WoW forums you will in all likelihood never hear from anyone about your armory profile ever.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Xanthippe on April 11, 2007, 12:20:43 AM
I fail to understand why anyone would care if people opt out or not.  I'm all for letting people do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  I don't have to understand why they want to opt out. 

Why the animosity?  Just because one might not understand why someone else wants to do something doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to do it.

Choices are good.  The ability to opt in or out is good.

I don't understand the hostility.



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Calantus on April 11, 2007, 12:44:33 AM
If I was being hostile I would have said some nasty things to the people pushing for an opt-out. I'm attacking the idea because it lessens the armory for no gain whatsoever to my mind. There's nothing in the armory you need to keep private. As far as I can tell its all chicken little sky is falling craziness.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Phred on April 11, 2007, 12:46:50 AM
Seems like it be another tool for gold farmers/know-it-alls to harass people.

Cause gold farmers are so active in the forums.



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Jayce on April 11, 2007, 09:02:51 AM
Seems like it be another tool for gold farmers/know-it-alls to harass people.

Cause gold farmers are so active in the forums.



I didn't get this either.  It doesn't show how much gold you have, to my knowledge.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Paelos on April 11, 2007, 09:08:04 AM
I fail to understand why anyone would care if people opt out or not.  I'm all for letting people do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  I don't have to understand why they want to opt out. 

Why the animosity?  Just because one might not understand why someone else wants to do something doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to do it.

Choices are good.  The ability to opt in or out is good.

I don't understand the hostility.


The animosity isn't over opting out or not. The animosity is coming from the type of people who would want to opt-out and their BS reasoning which has nothing to do with fact. Right now, the armory works, it doesn't intrude on your personal life at all by revealing private information that can't be gathered in-game, and it's a solid tool for raiding guilds and policing members. The people upset with this are the ones who don't want to be policed because they have been going out of their way to hide. They can still do this by logging out in a pretty pink dress all the time if they want to. That's the opt-out.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 09:12:54 AM
I think the idea touted is that gold farmers will look at your shit equipment and then target you as a potential little bumfuck.

Of course, this idea is total shite, since gold farmers target absolutely everyone and anything with macros and bots that require little to no human intervention.

It's another fucking strawman.

The Armory is fine.  It's great.  It's useful.

And you can opt out of it by logging out in your fucking RP Twill outfit, like I do.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 11, 2007, 09:13:58 AM
If you're worried about what people might think of your character all you have to do is not suck.

if your spec is shit enough you deserve to be laughed at
You see it is sad little losers like yourself that are the reason I want to opt out of the armory.  You don't see the problem because you are part of it motherfucker.

I know I shouldn't care what a bunch of ingrates who are so lacking in real life accomplishments that they obsess over gathering gear in a very easy game think and yet I don't like the idea of these worthless shits turning their nose up at me.  The problem is that WoW is full of retards like Calantus who, being unable to derive joy in real life, can only gain satisfaction by nitpicking peoples' talent trees in the easiest MMO ever made.

I would have no problem with the armory if the only people who used it were those like Paelos who have legitimate, constructive purposes but for every Paelos there are ten Calantus desperately trying to grow an epeen.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 09:17:09 AM
No, perhaps the problem is that you think so much of yourself that you honestly believe in a player base of 9 million, anyone actually gives a crap about you.

Calantus is just being, well, Calantus.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: ajax34i on April 11, 2007, 09:28:18 AM
On one hand, we have people who don't want a nerf to their precious tool (It's effective only if it can't be blocked, right?  Why does that get translated to "It's useful only if it can't be blocked."), and on the other hand we have the people who fear that they themselves will be the target of every internet jerk out there using this to grief them personally, which causes them stress over the potential.

Everybody is ego-centric.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 11, 2007, 09:31:33 AM
No, perhaps the problem is that you think so much of yourself that you honestly believe in a player base of 9 million, anyone actually gives a crap about you.
No, I think very little of myself and don't want thousands of strangers who I've never even met to feel the same.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 09:34:45 AM
Christ.  Thousands ?  Really ?

I'd honestly be flattered to all hell and back to think that even one person is gonna look at my profile.  Ever.

:)


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Simond on April 11, 2007, 09:35:18 AM
Hey Miasma - what's your character name & server?
Purely out of interest....


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 11, 2007, 09:52:49 AM
Lorcist, Earthen Ring. (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist)

In my soloing gear.  I only got 70 last week after coming up from 40 a month and a half ago and still have all the quests in blade/netherstorm/smv to do.  I want to do those to buy my epic mount and then take up tailoring for the switch to healing.  I have the hallowed trousers and garments but will need to create my own primal mooncloth and whitemend pieces which are BoP so I will have to drop a harvesting profession.  I don't have many blues because I only do instances when dragged in kicking and screaming because I want to heal in them, not dps, even though I'm usually number two on the meters while providing VE/VT bonuses to my group and I often prevent at least one wipe by dropping shadow and healing the tank when the other healer goes oom.  I joined a small guild three weeks ago.

I have wands in my spec because priests use them when farming to be outside of the five second rule by the time spirit tap procs and because unbreakable will can cause wipes in instances since if I resist fear the mob will come right for me and then the healer is dead, I don't PvP so I don't need the ability to resist stuns so much.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Valmorian on April 11, 2007, 09:53:20 AM
I know I shouldn't care what a bunch of ingrates who are so lacking in real life accomplishments that they obsess over gathering gear in a very easy game think and yet I don't like the idea of these worthless shits turning their nose up at me. 

As many have pointed out, this will happen with or without the armory.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 10:14:58 AM
Lorcist, Earthen Ring. (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist)


YOU BAFFLE ME.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 11, 2007, 10:22:15 AM
 :-D


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 11:24:31 AM
We've all hurt Lums feelings (http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/04/11/the-tinfoil-armory-continued/#more-470).

Sigh.





Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Hutch on April 11, 2007, 11:38:29 AM
We've all hurt Lums feelings (http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/04/11/the-tinfoil-armory-continued/#more-470).

Sigh.


Quote from: Ironwood
I think the problem you have grappling with this issue is that no-one has actually come out yet to define what The Armory is FOR.

I donít know. I suspect no-one does.

I think the problem Lum has is that he disagrees with Blizzard's decision to exclude an opt-out from the Armory, and he thought the Tinfoil Hat was bad CS, and that the "vast majority" of posters disagree with him on both points.

Welcome to NV, population Lum.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 11:48:13 AM
Yeah, but you can't really argue 'Rationally'* for an opt-out or in unless you can define why.

As I've said in this thread, the PvP argument, to me, just doesn't really cut it.  At the highest levels of PvP, I suspect that Items and Talents are going to be so similar as to be trivial.  Further, the problem of finding the team you're going to be up against is also clownshoes slow.  It took me five minutes to ridicule Miasma, for example, using armory, because it took fucking ages to open his unbelievably stupid and juvenile talent choices and crap gear.

As I keep saying, I've yet to see anyone explain why an opt out is needed, but to be totally fair, I've yet to see anyone who can actually tell me what the Armory is FOR, apart from being a kinda cool feature.

Heh.

This gets funnier, well after April 1st.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Triforcer on April 11, 2007, 11:54:54 AM
I like how Lum quoted the trollingest, most isolated pro-Armory anecdotes to create the impression that the pro side are all maladjusted twits  :lol:.  Well played, old chap...well played. 


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Hutch on April 11, 2007, 12:05:10 PM

There's a trick to the Armory, by the way. If, instead of using this:
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist)
You use this:
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist)
(the same url but with the # missing)
You can then View Source to see the xml behind the page.

I don't know if the second one loads faster, but you can (for example) use the View Source to see Miasma's not-quite-eleet 20 HK total  ;)


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Dren on April 11, 2007, 12:12:34 PM
As I said on Lum's blog, the only thing the Opt-out will do is change your status from one of millions in a huge database to one of a few with a big arrow pointing at your head for those that go even look at the armory.  Those same people you want to thwart (the ones that go look) will now be faced with an Opt-Out page.  You've just now flagged yourself more than you ever could have done if you had opt'ed-in.

The only one that will benefit from opt-out will be the PvP'er and to Ironwood's point, who the hell is using it for that purpose anyway?  It is just too slow.  Plus, even if you got the information quicker, what are you going to do differently?  Are you going to go respec really quick to win that one match?  Are you going to quickly come up with a completely different game plan on the fly and pwn them!?

I'm sticking to my prediction that if they put opt-out into the system, these same people will be bitching that they are now an even bigger target than before, not less.  Oh, in the case of the gold farmer?  Opt-out means two things to me, "NEWB" or "PVP'er."  Both are really good targets for purchasing gold.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 11, 2007, 12:16:13 PM

There's a trick to the Armory, by the way. If, instead of using this:
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist)
You use this:
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Lorcist)
(the same url but with the # missing)
You can then View Source to see the xml behind the page.

I don't know if the second one loads faster, but you can (for example) use the View Source to see Miasma's not-quite-eleet 20 HK total  ;)

I was reading a thread where they caught a Rogue who claimed he couldn't pick the lock on chests by using that trick.  He would say "my lockpick skill isn't high enough to do that" then after the instance was done he would come back and scoop up all the loot.  Sneaky rogues.

That 20HK would have been by accident last night, a tank we summoned in was flagged and a couple night elves tried to gank him as he walked to the shadow labyrinth door.  Since we had just summoned him in we were running behind him unflagged and just jumped in.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Calantus on April 11, 2007, 12:39:55 PM
If you're worried about what people might think of your character all you have to do is not suck.

if your spec is shit enough you deserve to be laughed at
You see it is sad little losers like yourself that are the reason I want to opt out of the armory.  You don't see the problem because you are part of it motherfucker.

I know I shouldn't care what a bunch of ingrates who are so lacking in real life accomplishments that they obsess over gathering gear in a very easy game think and yet I don't like the idea of these worthless shits turning their nose up at me.  The problem is that WoW is full of retards like Calantus who, being unable to derive joy in real life, can only gain satisfaction by nitpicking peoples' talent trees in the easiest MMO ever made.

I would have no problem with the armory if the only people who used it were those like Paelos who have legitimate, constructive purposes but for every Paelos there are ten Calantus desperately trying to grow an epeen.

This happens all the time so I'm not going to get hostile, I realise now that it's because of something I say that causes this. I'm not part of the problem because I only look up profiles of people who are successful and I want to see why, or of friends just because they're friends. I'll never abuse someone because of their armory profile because I really don't care at all about what some random has their talent points in. This could change when I'm looking to make groups, but even then I'm just going to knock the person back if I think they're a retard, not make fun of them. I might seem like it here sometimes but I don't like being a dick to people.

The comments about not sucking and if you have talents bad enough you deserve to be mocked is the fact that if random people are going out of their way to laugh at you ingame because your talents are shit, they have to be REALLY bad talents. That's why I specifically said "suck" instead of "sub-optimal". And if you run into one of those retards who's going to laugh at you because you made something slightly off the cookie-cutter then you can rest assured that their oppinion means nothing and they were likely to laugh at you for something random anyway.

Because you posted it, I suspect in challenge to see what we would make of it, here's my review of your character: Obviously not PVP because you skipped unbreakable will, shadow resiliance, shadow power, and 5/5 imp MB. Plus you have shadow affinity which screams "pve shadow". I wouldn't have done it the same but the spec doesn't suck by any means. Your gear lacks any of the wolf greeens so you're pretty safe there. Tradeskills are meaningless. Your rep tells me you have never been a very big raider in vanilla or BC, but that's only relevant if you're trying to pass yourself off as a high end raider when you don't have the rep you would if you were. You also don't seem to have ever PVP'd, but as long as you don't post some long rant about PVP balance that doesn't matter. So, in summary... what are you worried about?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 11, 2007, 12:54:35 PM
So, in summary... what are you worried about?
I don't know, I guess I'm insane.

I assumed your comments were meant to insult me but I guess they weren't so I apologize for yelling at you.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Rasix on April 11, 2007, 01:03:10 PM

As I keep saying, I've yet to see anyone explain why an opt out is needed, but to be totally fair, I've yet to see anyone who can actually tell me what the Armory is FOR, apart from being a kinda cool feature.


Well, it's for looking up players out of game. For finding out their gear, talent spec, rep, guild affiliation, and PVP rankings. That's what it's FOR.  :-D

If you're looking for Blizzard's rationale behind it.. there's been a couple reasons said here that are likely very close to the truth.

1.  Arena transparency.  You can see rankings, win/loss, and team makeup including specs.  I gather it's only a matter of time before you see transcripts of individual matches or even perhaps replays.  They can cut off a large number of bitching about arena scores with this feature in as well as use it to promote the arena pvp itself. 

2.  Cut the legs out from others trying to profit off this feature (Rupture).  Prevent services this that provide this from becoming acquisition targets for gold farming cabals. (as someone else said here)

3.  The intern team wanted something neat to do. It's just pretty damn cool for a free feature.  And Blizzard doesn't see your gear, talent spec, and rep falling under any sort of reasonable expectation of privacy since one of these features is already provided in game and the others really aren't a BFD (in their's and other's opinions).  This isn't a cause for EFF lawyers, it's your fucking talent spec.

Lum's quoted example doesn't work for me.   Any person that at level 29 would check someone's armory profile before grouping with them is a collossal asshole and complete munchikin. You barely need anything more than a warm body for grouping before lvl 65 outside of certain instance runs.  The armory is now just another tool for assholes.   I've gotten pretty good at ignoring assholes, I'm pretty sure I can  deflect their armory attacks now as well.

I'm sure the armory is also an interface that be used for other features that Blizzard may want to implement at a later date.  Take for example perhaps out of game auction house usage or guild management. 


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 11, 2007, 01:18:36 PM
I think blizzard mainly did it because they didn't have interesting web functionality.  They were actually being beaten out by SOE, I wouldn't tolerate that if I was a blizzard exec  :wink:.  In vanguard it will take a screenshot the moment you ding 5, 10 etc and it is displayed on the web along with all sorts of other goodies (which you can turn off if you want to thank you very much!)

They probably intend to add more functionality and start charging an extra $1.99 a month if you want access to it like SOE does with the station players site.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 02:13:38 PM

As I keep saying, I've yet to see anyone explain why an opt out is needed, but to be totally fair, I've yet to see anyone who can actually tell me what the Armory is FOR, apart from being a kinda cool feature.


Well, it's for looking up players out of game. For finding out their gear, talent spec, rep, guild affiliation, and PVP rankings. That's what it's FOR.  :-D

If you're looking for Blizzard's rationale behind it.. there's been a couple reasons said here that are likely very close to the truth.

1.  Arena transparency.  You can see rankings, win/loss, and team makeup including specs.  I gather it's only a matter of time before you see transcripts of individual matches or even perhaps replays.  They can cut off a large number of bitching about arena scores with this feature in as well as use it to promote the arena pvp itself. 

2.  Cut the legs out from others trying to profit off this feature (Rupture).  Prevent services this that provide this from becoming acquisition targets for gold farming cabals. (as someone else said here)

3.  The intern team wanted something neat to do. It's just pretty damn cool for a free feature.  And Blizzard doesn't see your gear, talent spec, and rep falling under any sort of reasonable expectation of privacy since one of these features is already provided in game and the others really aren't a BFD (in their's and other's opinions).  This isn't a cause for EFF lawyers, it's your fucking talent spec.

Lum's quoted example doesn't work for me.   Any person that at level 29 would check someone's armory profile before grouping with them is a collossal asshole and complete munchikin. You barely need anything more than a warm body for grouping before lvl 65 outside of certain instance runs.  The armory is now just another tool for assholes.   I've gotten pretty good at ignoring assholes, I'm pretty sure I can  deflect their armory attacks now as well.

I'm sure the armory is also an interface that be used for other features that Blizzard may want to implement at a later date.  Take for example perhaps out of game auction house usage or guild management. 


Thank you.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 11, 2007, 02:15:06 PM
I like how Lum quoted the trollingest, most isolated pro-Armory anecdotes to create the impression that the pro side are all maladjusted twits  :lol:.  Well played, old chap...well played. 


What do you expect ?  He's a Republican.

 :rimshot:


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 11, 2007, 04:51:33 PM
Quote from: Lum's blog
Specifically, the vast majority of players, including quite reasonable ones as well as the usual loud suspects, think that concerns about in-game privacy is whining.

Because they absolutely are.  They're whining, and nobody should take them seriously.  Anyone who sits around worried that some random dipshit might someday tell them "LOOL UR ARMOR SUCKS" is so insecure as to boggle the mind.  If people knowing that you have shitty gear upsets you, you need to quit playing these games.  If the few seconds it takes to put an obvious moron on ignore represent too much effort for your tastes, you need to quit playing these games.

Your personal and payment information is private.  How much Argent Dawn faction you have is not.  It really is just a video game, and there really is a difference.

PS, Lum, way to martyr yourself in the last couple paragraphs there.   :roll:


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Nebu on April 11, 2007, 05:23:58 PM
Anyone who sits around worried that some random dipshit might someday tell them "LOOL UR ARMOR SUCKS" is so insecure as to boggle the mind.  If people knowing that you have shitty gear upsets you, you need to quit playing these games.  If the few seconds it takes to put an obvious moron on ignore represent too much effort for your tastes, you need to quit playing these games.

I've been constantly amazed at the amount of personal self-esteem people invest in their gaming "ability".  I'm guessing that this is largely an issue of maturity.  It's rather sad that the only thing many people can toot their horn about is their status in a game.  I'd think that would be cause for some serious self-reflection. 


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lum on April 11, 2007, 05:39:28 PM
Why would my feelings be hurt? I couldn't care less if anyone sees my characters (here's twink #7008 (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Uther&n=Moervan) that I've been levelling up), I have no problem ignoring idiots, and I don't work for Blizzard so I don't feel responsible for their choices.

I just think the community response, here and elsewhere, disagrees with my take on it. And the vitriol involved is pretty wacky. It's as if someone is personally attacking you because they don't want you to see their character.

Someone in the comments from my post today responded that an opt-out feature would kill the Armory's usefulness because a majority of people would opt-out. My immediate thought to that (again, with no personal investment in the issue!) is, if a majority of people would opt out, is the service itself a good idea? I mean, there is presumably a reason they would opt out!


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 11, 2007, 07:58:27 PM
Worrying about the world being able to discover your talent build or look at your gear in WoW is such a harebrained catass concern that it manages to tap into the special resevoir of hate I keep around just for e-peen types.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Paelos on April 12, 2007, 12:03:59 AM
Someone in the comments from my post today responded that an opt-out feature would kill the Armory's usefulness because a majority of people would opt-out. My immediate thought to that (again, with no personal investment in the issue!) is, if a majority of people would opt out, is the service itself a good idea? I mean, there is presumably a reason they would opt out!

They worded it incorrectly or didn't understand what the hell they were talking about. It isn't that the majority of WoW players would opt-out, because they wouldn't. It was the the majority of the people who are actually lying about their stats/rep/gear/spec/whatever would opt-out, leaving just the masses of "normal" (and i use that term loosely) players to be in the system.

IMO, the whole purpose of the armory is to show off your shit, and check up on people. That's it. It's very much a discriminatory tool, which I don't feel is a bad thing in a game that's this horribly linear. A leader can look at a person's profile when they want to join a group and decide who will do the best job based on simple standards. Granted, this gear doesn't show who is a raging douchebag, but it's a good start.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 12, 2007, 03:25:49 AM
Why would my feelings be hurt? I couldn't care less if anyone sees my characters (here's twink #7008 (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Uther&n=Moervan) that I've been levelling up), I have no problem ignoring idiots, and I don't work for Blizzard so I don't feel responsible for their choices.

I just think the community response, here and elsewhere, disagrees with my take on it. And the vitriol involved is pretty wacky. It's as if someone is personally attacking you because they don't want you to see their character.

Someone in the comments from my post today responded that an opt-out feature would kill the Armory's usefulness because a majority of people would opt-out. My immediate thought to that (again, with no personal investment in the issue!) is, if a majority of people would opt out, is the service itself a good idea? I mean, there is presumably a reason they would opt out!

I don't think I meant what you think I meant.  I'm quite sure you don't have a personal beef with the armory and getting your characters seen.  However, the tone of your latest blog-post suggests that not only are you surprised by the community reaction, but that you're really quite surprised.  It came off (to me) as "Wow, you guys don't see it ?  I'll just quote the complete idiots that are against my position and the bloke that's for my position that TOTALLY made up that 'I'm being hassled' story."

I didn't think you were very 'fair and balanced' and so it came out like hurt feelings.

Just to clear that up.

:)


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lum on April 12, 2007, 08:22:35 AM
Oh. Well in that case I suppose my feelings were even less hurt. If I could best describe my feelings, it would be "Wow, this argument's still going on. Cool, something I can write about during a break, I hadn't made any updates to my blog in 2 weeks.".

Leaving aside for the moment the laughable notion that anyone is "fair and balanced" about *anything* they might have an opinion about, I picked the posts I did because the vitriol surprised me, and it is more common on the official boards, I just didn't feel like linking to/trudging through them at the time. The vitriol involved surprised and somewhat confused me precisely because you'd assume it would be the presumably violated why-must-you-look-at-me folks that would have "teh hate" going on, but instead it's "We like this feature, and if you don't WE WILL DESTROY YOU AND EAT YOUR BABIES." Which I find... odd.

Plus WUA flamed me personally, which always makes for fun reposting!

As for supposedly cherrypicking a "lying" pro response, surprisingly I cannot verify for the truth-telling of everyone on the Internet including you, but I have no reason to disbelieve him over everyone else quoted, and have seen enough insane asshattery in MMOs that it is entirely plausible that someone would spend 10 minutes hectoring a newbie over his talent choices.

But since I'm not a liberal, clearly everything I say is wrong.  :roll:


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 12, 2007, 08:26:51 AM
But since I'm not a liberal, clearly everything I say is wrong.  :roll:

Now, don't you get upset at that either.  I was tongue in cheek bashing Triforcer anyway.  Any chance I get, you know ?


Also, I go the other way with the net; I can't verify everything, so everything everyone says is a lie.  It was because of that little run in with the '16 year old girl'.  Christ, he was huge.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Merusk on April 12, 2007, 11:33:55 AM
Just remember, Lum, there's a reason WUA was grief-titled "Wind Up Nutsack" for a while.  Sometimes he's just bonkers.

Ironwood: Was 'she' from Xenia, OH? That should have been your first clue.   :-D


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WayAbvPar on April 12, 2007, 11:55:48 AM
The only thing I know about Xenia is that the FSM keeps trying to wipe it off the earth with giant tornadoes.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 12, 2007, 01:17:59 PM
Zeus knows Lum's been flamed harder before, by people meaner than me.  He doesn't need any of you girls to hold his hand.  And when the hurt feelings of some poopsocker offended by Blizzard's April Fools joke start seeming like something worth giving a shit about, yeah, someone needs to tell you to wash the sand out.  Sorry.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Xanthippe on April 12, 2007, 02:02:49 PM
The vitriol on this subject is astounding.  The fact is that if someone does something that you wouldn't choose to do, you assume the worst motives of the person involved. 

It's akin to the "well, if you don't have anything to hide, you won't object to us searching your residence then, will you?" argument.  Because only a criminal would not want to be searched, natch.

Choices are good things.  Choices work all sorts of ways, too.  As more than a few pointed out (between this thread and Lum's), many people state they'll "shun" (whatever the MMO equivalent is, anyway) people who opt out.  That's fine - that would be exercising your choice not to deal with whoever you don't want to deal with whyever you don't want to.  Freedom of association at play.

That epeen argument swings both ways when it comes to the Armory and opting out and all that, btw.  Many people have stated they use it to catch people lying about their equipment.  (Imo only someone worried about his little epeen would actually do that, but that's my own bias at play).

I thought Lum was more of a libertarian than a republican, anyway.  The stand he's taking on this seems to indicate so.

Choices are good things, not bad things.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: MrHat on April 12, 2007, 02:05:13 PM
It's akin to the "well, if you don't have anything to hide, you won't object to us searching your residence then, will you?" argument.  Because only a criminal would not want to be searched, natch.

Except you don't own anything.

I'd say it's more akin to your company searching your browser history on the work computer you use.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 12, 2007, 02:29:48 PM
Yes.  It's exactly like that.  At the moment, anyway.

And Xanth ?  You're getting a little carried away, I think.  Normally I enjoy your flights of fancy, but, er, Searching My Residence ?  Really ?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Trouble on April 12, 2007, 03:10:10 PM
What are the reasons for not wanting people to view your armory profile?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lum on April 12, 2007, 03:16:12 PM
I thought Lum was more of a libertarian than a republican, anyway.

I'd love to vote libertarian. The only problem with that is that LP candidates tend to be completely insane.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Rasix on April 12, 2007, 03:17:44 PM
What are the reasons for not wanting people to view your armory profile?

People might be mean to you. 

There's a list of a reasons, but most extend or relate to the above.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Furiously on April 12, 2007, 03:23:53 PM
What are the reasons for not wanting people to view your armory profile?

either:

1) I think I'm smarter then everyone and my spec is special.
2) I say I'm smarter then everyone and my spec is crap.
3) I talk about all my accomplishments but from my spec it's pretty obvious I have not done a single instance.
4) I feel the information should be private.
5) It interferes with my roll-playing ability.
6) But people could catch me lying about my character.

I can understand the #1 and #4 people.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Jayce on April 12, 2007, 04:19:58 PM
I thought Lum was more of a libertarian than a republican, anyway.

I'd love to vote libertarian. The only problem with that is that LP candidates tend to be completely insane.

I couldn't help but notice that also.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Triforcer on April 12, 2007, 06:04:39 PM
My favorite anti-Armory argument so far (might have been on Lums, maybe the WoW board, can't remember) is that a wife could take her husband's profile to the judge in a divorce case as evidence he wasn't paying attention to her  :-o  THAT should have been quoted in Lum's update...


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Rasix on April 12, 2007, 06:06:16 PM
My favorite anti-Armory argument so far (might have been on Lums, maybe the WoW board, can't remember) is that a wife could take her husband's profile to the judge in a divorce case as evidence he wasn't paying attention to her  :-o  THAT should have been quoted in Lum's update...

EEK.  It doesn't have /played visible does it?  Or is there an easy formula for calculating neglect based on blues, purples, reputation, and honorable kills?

Edit: Now that I think about it, /played would be something I wouldn't be comfortable with if it was on the Armory.   


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Triforcer on April 12, 2007, 06:07:19 PM
  Or is there an easy formula for calculating neglect based on blues, purples, reputation, and honorable kills?

I think that was the implication.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Rasix on April 12, 2007, 06:14:20 PM
"I swear your Honor, those blues came from easy group quests."


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Miasma on April 12, 2007, 06:53:45 PM
As a side question - when you look someone up in the armory and it says they have 21,000 honorable kills does that mean the person actually laid the killing blow on 21,000 people or that they were close enough to a death to earn HK 21,000 times?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 12, 2007, 07:11:37 PM
I always thought there should be something special for world PVP kills when I played.  I never got into battlegrounds, but I liked killing people out in the world.

"Hey, I got five kills today."
"Yeah?"
"Yeah.  At five different points while out questing today, I ran down an alliance player within my level range and killed him one-on-one."
"Oh.  I got three hundred kills today."
"What?  You didn't actually fight and kill 300 people.  Even if they were all idiots, that would take all day."
"AOE + battleground, lol!!1!"


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Jayce on April 12, 2007, 07:56:47 PM
As a side question - when you look someone up in the armory and it says they have 21,000 honorable kills does that mean the person actually laid the killing blow on 21,000 people or that they were close enough to a death to earn HK 21,000 times?

It's like xp - if you participate in PvP on a player target that's not gray to you (meaning you can even just heal the guy who's tanking him, lolz), then you get an HK.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WayAbvPar on April 13, 2007, 12:24:03 PM
I always thought there should be something special for world PVP kills when I played.  I never got into battlegrounds, but I liked killing people out in the world.

"Hey, I got five kills today."
"Yeah?"
"Yeah.  At five different points while out questing today, I ran down an alliance player within my level range and killed him one-on-one."
"Oh.  I got three hundred kills today."
"What?  You didn't actually fight and kill 300 people.  Even if they were all idiots, that would take all day."
"AOE + battleground, lol!!1!"

I agree. There should be separate category or something. I got my first solo kill of a level 70 the other night in a world kill (at level 68), and I want my props, dammit!


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lantyssa on April 13, 2007, 02:39:26 PM
I'd love to vote libertarian. The only problem with that is that LP candidates tend to be completely insane.
I couldn't help but notice that also.
I have screened a few.  They're either complete novices with no support and backing, or insane.  Certifiably.  Giving them power would scare me far more than the most evil, twisted, career politician.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Xanthippe on April 14, 2007, 10:06:02 AM
I thought Lum was more of a libertarian than a republican, anyway.

I'd love to vote libertarian. The only problem with that is that LP candidates tend to be completely insane.

Yep, I was speaking of principles rather than the party (hence the uses of the small "l" and "r" than the cap "L" and "R."


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Xanthippe on April 14, 2007, 10:12:06 AM
Yes.  It's exactly like that.  At the moment, anyway.

And Xanth ?  You're getting a little carried away, I think.  Normally I enjoy your flights of fancy, but, er, Searching My Residence ?  Really ?

You're right, the analogy was poor.  Browser history is more like it - except if an employer owns the computer then one has no privacy on that computer anyway.  Oh wait a minute....

Ok, I will grant that Blizzard can do whatever they please.  The issue here though is that the Armory is a new feature.  Had it always been in the game, then people would have no right to squawk, nor any expectation whatsoever with regard to an opt out feature.  But it's not been in the game.

Personally, I wouldn't opt out, but then personally, I've never used it.  I'm not sure I fully understand why someone wouldn't want to be in it.  However, as a customer relations move, Blizzard should consider that some people may want to opt out -- particularly since they have been vociferous about it -- and allow them to.

If that causes the Armory to be worthless, then so be it.  If a few people opting out makes it worthless - maybe it isn't so invaluable anyway.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Typhon on April 14, 2007, 01:46:37 PM
Why Blizzard spent effort to enable this - My guess is that blizzard CMs noticed that outing someone's bullshit/bullshitting by noting their spec/character makeup was an effective way of reducing the noise that those exaggerated claims tend to generate.  The only way to improve on that capability would be to put that power into the hands of the playerbase, and let the players monitor eachother.

If that was the purpose, it seems like it's been pretty effective.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Calantus on April 14, 2007, 09:48:22 PM
However, as a customer relations move, Blizzard should consider that some people may want to opt out -- particularly since they have been vociferous about it -- and allow them to.

Well, Blizzard is listening to the arguably larger portion of their playerbase who likes that armory has no opt-out feature. The fact that the opt-outers are so loud shouldn't mean anything because we've said many times here that pandering to the loudest denominator is not the best thing. Also, no offence, but americans can be a bit... weird when it comes to their perceived rights. I think the whole issue is just a storm in a teacup, really.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: ajax34i on April 14, 2007, 10:16:16 PM
Why Blizzard spent effort to enable this - My guess is that blizzard CMs noticed that outing someone's bullshit/bullshitting by noting their spec/character makeup was an effective way of reducing the noise that those exaggerated claims tend to generate.  The only way to improve on that capability would be to put that power into the hands of the playerbase, and let the players monitor eachother.

Effective way of reducing the noise?  Flames are happening as much as before, only now they include potshots at specs and gear.  Are you saying that the WoW forums are suddenly quality reading?


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Typhon on April 15, 2007, 08:24:40 AM
Are you saying that the WoW forums are suddenly quality reading?

lol, ah, no.  Armory reduces the ability that people had to bullshit about their spec/stats as a way of defending some outrageous claim, and (probably more important for Blizz CMs) removes the need for the CMs to lookup that players' stats (because the playerbase does it for free).


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Numtini on April 15, 2007, 11:15:36 AM
I think this was actually a positive PR move. And the reason I feel that way is that Blizzard has consistently shown that they "get it" and has not acted like a weasely gaming company. Similar to banning people without a lot of fuss or the anti-cheat scan, they have shown that they understand the difference between whining twits and real complaints.

Same reason they probably won't and certainly shouldn't charge for it. I suspect that whatever SOE brings in on the $3 to use their features is outweighed by the ill will it generates. It may be the job of all corporations to separate customers from their money, but you make a lot more money in the long term if the customer doesn't feel like they were worked over when you do so.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Xanthippe on April 15, 2007, 01:26:53 PM
However, as a customer relations move, Blizzard should consider that some people may want to opt out -- particularly since they have been vociferous about it -- and allow them to.

Well, Blizzard is listening to the arguably larger portion of their playerbase who likes that armory has no opt-out feature. The fact that the opt-outers are so loud shouldn't mean anything because we've said many times here that pandering to the loudest denominator is not the best thing. Also, no offence, but americans can be a bit... weird when it comes to their perceived rights. I think the whole issue is just a storm in a teacup, really.

No offense taken.  Non-Americans can be a bit cavalier when it comes to surrendering their rights.

Americans don't perceive rights to be something they are given, but rather something they are born with.  So to my American point of view, that other people don't believe that their right to liberty is endowed rather than given is what is strange. 



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Calantus on April 15, 2007, 01:52:34 PM
I think most people in western countries have a similar view, but there's just something emboldening (over and above just having your rights written down) about having an actual bill of rights because it creates some ambiguity people like to leverage. You sometimes hear Aussie kids saying they have this and that right and you can just tell em that it's not written down anywhere that they actually have them. Everything is specifically covered (or not covered) by its own law and that's that, if it's not covered then tough, write to your government representative about the issue and in the mean time STFU.

That's why it's a little weird for me to see people going on about rights in areas the law doesn't explicitly cover.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Ironwood on April 15, 2007, 03:18:06 PM
No offense taken.  Non-Americans can be a bit cavalier when it comes to surrendering their rights.

Oh fuck off.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 15, 2007, 03:26:06 PM
No offense taken.  Non-Americans can be a bit cavalier when it comes to surrendering their rights.

Americans don't perceive rights to be something they are given, but rather something they are born with.  So to my American point of view, that other people don't believe that their right to liberty is endowed rather than given is what is strange.

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/GrimDysart/BushNP.jpg)


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Lum on April 15, 2007, 03:39:32 PM
No offense taken.  Non-Americans can be a bit cavalier when it comes to surrendering their rights.

Oh fuck off.


To be honest William Wallace was more roundhead than cavalier.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Jayce on April 15, 2007, 06:23:08 PM
Americans don't perceive rights to be something they are given, but rather something they are born with.  So to my American point of view, that other people don't believe that their right to liberty is endowed rather than given is what is strange. 

I suppose this thread could go all political easily, but sorry, you don't speak for all Americans, Xanth.

IMO "born with rights" sounds good, fires up the kids and is alot harder of a political football to throw when necessary, but I've come to beleive that nothing in this life is guaranteed.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Samwise on April 15, 2007, 06:43:59 PM
I think this was actually a positive PR move. And the reason I feel that way is that Blizzard has consistently shown that they "get it" and has not acted like a weasely gaming company. Similar to banning people without a lot of fuss or the anti-cheat scan, they have shown that they understand the difference between whining twits and real complaints.

Yes.

Both Blizzard and SOE occasionally provoke frothing rage from their customers.  But people tend to rag on SOE and praise Blizzard not just because SOE is SOE and Blizzard is Blizzard.  It's because SOE provokes rage by behaving in a duplicituous turd-burgling fashion, and Blizzard provokes rage by being direct and occasionally funny.  Even someone who wasn't wronged directly will probably find SOE's tactics distasteful.  The same is generally not true of Blizzard.


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Valmorian on April 16, 2007, 09:37:42 AM
Americans don't perceive rights to be something they are given, but rather something they are born with.  So to my American point of view, that other people don't believe that their right to liberty is endowed rather than given is what is strange. 

That's cute.  Equating an opt-out of having the character data Blizzard has with civil rights?  Yeah, I'd say that's a bizarre idea of a "right".



Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: Xanthippe on April 16, 2007, 12:51:35 PM
Americans don't perceive rights to be something they are given, but rather something they are born with.  So to my American point of view, that other people don't believe that their right to liberty is endowed rather than given is what is strange. 

That's cute.  Equating an opt-out of having the character data Blizzard has with civil rights?  Yeah, I'd say that's a bizarre idea of a "right".

Don't take this out of context, please.  I was responding to a specific comment made about Americans, which had little to nothing to do with WoW.  I was responding snarkily to snark.  Besides, I love it when Ironwood talks dirty to me.

To bring it back on topic - I haven't read the official threads, and I don't know if anyone has claimed any sort of right to opt out of the Armory.  My position is that giving customers choices is a good thing.  Basically, originally I was agreeing with Lum that Blizzard is doing a dumb thing when they belittle their customers.

While I don't understand why a person would want to opt out, I also don't understand why that would inflame someone else to the point of vitriol that I saw on this thread and Lum's thread.  I don't get, and won't, I'm sure, so nobody should bother trying to explain further.  Doesn't really matter to me, because any effect the Armory has is negligible to my game experience.  I just don't care.

To bring another dimension to this, two years from launch, I have noticed that the CMs are more antagonistic toward customers on the boards in general.  This April Fools joke is indicative of that.  I've noticed that the CMs are acting like they are doing us all a favor by providing us their service (whatever service that is - I don't know, I quit reading the official boards for the most part), rather than recognizing the favor we provide them by way of a monthly fee.

Game companies (with the exception of Cryptic) become adversarial with their customers over time, or at least many do.  Familiarity breeds contempt and all that.  "We don't need you as much as you need us."  Etc.

It doesn't endear me to the company, or make me want to continue supporting them. The game they are providing had better be the best damned game out there.  Which they can do - for a time - until something better comes along, and it always does.   It's too bad that they get fat and lazy - because that can be their downfall as well.

(This can and does happen in plenty of businesses besides games - restaurants, music, literature, et al.)


Title: Re: The Armory and tinfoil hats
Post by: tkinnun0 on April 16, 2007, 01:24:15 PM
Right to privacy?? Right to not be harassed sure, but right to privacy? Let's start with the biggest offender. So you're in the toilet about to take a dump and God is there with you. God is watching as the poop inches out of your anus. Why is God in the loo watching you poo? Beats me, but it's pretty fucked up!