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Author Topic: End game? Raids?  (Read 50654 times)
Numtini
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Reply #105 on: June 14, 2007, 05:54:04 AM

There's a thread on the general forums about raids, apparently there's some piece and out of a full raid, the boss drops one. A dev kicked in that this was by intention. So it looks like it's not "raiding as a hobby" it's "raiding as a lifestyle." I find that very disappointing because I like big encounters, but have no interest in repeating stuff. But I guess it will give the ubers something to do.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #106 on: June 14, 2007, 06:14:58 AM

There's a thread on the general forums about raids, apparently there's some piece and out of a full raid, the boss drops one. A dev kicked in that this was by intention. So it looks like it's not "raiding as a hobby" it's "raiding as a lifestyle." I find that very disappointing because I like big encounters, but have no interest in repeating stuff. But I guess it will give the ubers something to do.

That sucks in ways I can't even verbalize properly right now.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
cmlancas
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Reply #107 on: June 14, 2007, 08:07:50 AM

There's a thread on the general forums about raids, apparently there's some piece and out of a full raid, the boss drops one. A dev kicked in that this was by intention. So it looks like it's not "raiding as a hobby" it's "raiding as a lifestyle." I find that very disappointing because I like big encounters, but have no interest in repeating stuff. But I guess it will give the ubers something to do.

That sucks in ways I can't even verbalize properly right now.

I think my soul just died a little bit inside.   Hello Kitty Can that make it better? 

In all seriousness, I think as long as they offer chain solo/duo quests (Hell-fucking-o? Two god damn hobbits walked to the mouth of Mount Doom for fuck's sake, why can't we have long quest strings....) to balance this, it isn't a big deal.

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Riggswolfe
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Reply #108 on: June 14, 2007, 09:05:21 AM

Ok. I read the thread. Also saw your post Numtini.

The big issue seems to be that there is some concern that the quest in question is actually a class quest, which puts the lie to "multiple paths to advance with none required."

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
cmlancas
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Reply #109 on: June 14, 2007, 09:09:22 AM

Ok. I read the thread. Also saw your post Numtini.

The big issue seems to be that there is some concern that the quest in question is actually a class quest, which puts the lie to "multiple paths to advance with none required."

Yikes. I had enough of crappy epic quests in EQ1. Thanks.

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Riggswolfe
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Reply #110 on: June 14, 2007, 11:54:13 AM

Ok, now that things have calmed down it appears there are other routes with the class quests. Basically there is a raid class quest, but there are also non-raid class quests.

Now it's back to: do only raiders deserve the best loot?

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Hound
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Reply #111 on: June 14, 2007, 02:31:36 PM

Ok, now that things have calmed down it appears there are other routes with the class quests. Basically there is a raid class quest, but there are also non-raid class quests.

Now it's back to: do only raiders deserve the best loot?

What you need to ask yourself is do you prefer to have a fulfilling real life and second rate gear in a virtual world, or your dominant hand as your primary sexual partner and some kick ass uber armor in a virtual world. Kind of puts things in perspective for me at least. I could really give a shit about whether that guys avatar has 2048 AC and mine only has 1859 at the end of the day. Even better is the fact that you  know that the uber armor the guy spent xx hours attaining will be second rate after the next expansion releases.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 02:36:23 PM by Hound »

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
cmlancas
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Reply #112 on: June 14, 2007, 03:03:41 PM


What you need to ask yourself is do you prefer to have a fulfilling real life and second rate gear in a virtual world, or your dominant hand as your primary sexual partner and some kick ass uber armor in a virtual world. Kind of puts things in perspective for me at least. I could really give a shit about whether that guys avatar has 2048 AC and mine only has 1859 at the end of the day. Even better is the fact that you  know that the uber armor the guy spent xx hours attaining will be second rate after the next expansion releases.

This argument is supremely tired and a waste of boardspace. Saying that casual A has a better life than raider B because he spent twenty less hours a week in-game is puerile. If you want to say that you choose not to raid because it is mind-numbingly boring most times, then fine.

My fiance and I play MMOs together. Sometimes even naked. Does that mean my hand is still my primary sexual partner?

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Falconeer
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Reply #113 on: June 14, 2007, 03:27:50 PM

Saying that casual A has a better life than raider B because he spent twenty less hours a week in-game is puerile.

But it's true. Most of the times.

Hound
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Reply #114 on: June 14, 2007, 04:53:15 PM


My fiance and I play MMOs together. Sometimes even naked. Does that mean my hand is still my primary sexual partner?

what you and your hand do behind closed doors is none of my business, however lets be real here raiding leaves precious little time for a social life be it a board cliché or not

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
cmlancas
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Reply #115 on: June 14, 2007, 05:00:17 PM

You didn't engage my post at all. More or less you said "C'mon, I'm right!" Well played, sir.

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Phred
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Reply #116 on: June 14, 2007, 08:12:41 PM

Saying that casual A has a better life than raider B because he spent twenty less hours a week in-game is puerile.

But it's true. Most of the times.

Not in the slightest. It was quite possible to raid 3 hrs a night in WoW and still have good progression. I've done it. If 3 hrs is too much for you I don't know what to say.

DraconianOne
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Reply #117 on: June 15, 2007, 03:31:22 AM

I hate the idea of raiding to get the best loot.  This has nothing to do with disliking raiding as a game mechanic nor to do with being a casual.  I'm casual from the point of view that I don't repeatedly raid.  I'm most definitely not a casual that I can spend as much time in game as the average raider. 

It's to do with the fact that raiding is just like this argument - repetetive and dull as fuck.  If you want to get a full set of epic raid armour in WoW, let's say tier 2, you've got to do Blackwing Lair how many times?  30? 40? More to make sure that everyone in the raid has all the pieces they need?  That's before you even get into Onyxia's Lair or MC.  That's assuming that your lucks in with the drops.  Defeating a raid once is an achievement and is great and all but having to repeatedly do it is just becoming a hamster in a cage peddling away at its wheel. 

What I don't understand is the reluctance of raiders to concede that if a solo player or members of a small group spend an equivalent amount of time on a quest chain or otherwise working towards some loot then why shouldn't that loot be of comparable worth as the raid earned loot? 

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Hound
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Reply #118 on: June 15, 2007, 03:45:51 AM

Well this whole thread is moot anyway if I interpret the posts in this thread correctly, according to MadeofLions posts in this thread there are no raid specific drops.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=791146#post791146

If you dont want to raid then fine, seems as if you can get the class specific legendary armor pieces  from solo and group play

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
sigil
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Reply #119 on: June 15, 2007, 03:50:39 AM

How the fuck did I end up on the VN boards?

These fuckheads would get bitchslapped by VN.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #120 on: June 15, 2007, 06:38:21 AM

Well this whole thread is moot anyway if I interpret the posts in this thread correctly, according to MadeofLions posts in this thread there are no raid specific drops.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=791146#post791146

If you dont want to raid then fine, seems as if you can get the class specific legendary armor pieces  from solo and group play

Yeah. I saw that post. In another thread Raiders are actually going "the guy who asked the question asked if you could get stuff 'like' epic armor sets. So of course you can. They just won't be nearly as good. But they'll be sets." And then of course linked a much less powerful set piece a raider got while soloing.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Falconeer
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Reply #121 on: June 15, 2007, 07:50:37 AM

Well, yesterday as I logged back in I was offered a new quest, that led me all around the world map to get the new raid quests. I ended up, in about an hour, with 12 new quests, all into the new raid instances and definmitely raid quests (as in the title beginning with "Raid: go there and fetch that blah...").
Rewards ranging from 10 cookies to some Unique weapons.

So basically, no matter what they say, there are at least 12 quests as far as I can see after 2 hours into the post-patch game, and rewards (some great), that are definitely raid only.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #122 on: June 15, 2007, 09:31:59 AM

Rewards ranging from 10 cookies to some Unique weapons.

Those weapons are what caused the big uproar over on the general forums. Those are the ones that

1) Can only be gotten in raid.
2) The end boss only drops 1 for the entire raid, meaning a minimum 24 times for everyone to get one if you stick with the same raid group every single time and you don't get useless drops for classes that already have their weapons. For PUGs and a group that changes alot and/or has bad luck it could be 100's of times before you get your weapon.

Quote
So basically, no matter what they say, there are at least 12 quests as far as I can see after 2 hours into the post-patch game, and rewards (some great), that are definitely raid only.

Well, there are supposedly over 100 quests in the patch, so 12 out of 100 isn't really that bad at all and if they keep it at about this percentage I think things will be fine. Let's face it, you don't need more than 10 or 12 quests in a raid. Most people go for the loot and the loot alone.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Falconeer
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Reply #123 on: June 15, 2007, 10:41:42 AM

Rewards ranging from 10 cookies to some Unique weapons.

Those weapons are what caused the big uproar over on the general forums. Those are the ones that

1) Can only be gotten in raid.
2) The end boss only drops 1 for the entire raid, meaning a minimum 24 times for everyone to get one if you stick with the same raid group every single time and you don't get useless drops for classes that already have their weapons. For PUGs and a group that changes alot and/or has bad luck it could be 100's of times before you get your weapon.

Are you sure about that? Those are quest reward so I guess as long as you complete the quest (and usually everyone in a group get credit/token for killing given mob) you should get yours. The uniques I am referring to aren't drops, just quest rewards. You go in, kill the boss, get credit for it, go back to quest giver (giant Arifael IIRC) and get your unique.
Are you implying that the item/token needed to complete the quest is dropped for just 1 raidmember out of 24 for every single instance? Honest question, as I didn't read the official forum yet.

Numtini
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Reply #124 on: June 15, 2007, 12:37:23 PM

Quote
Are you implying that the item/token needed to complete the quest is dropped for just 1 raidmember out of 24 for every single instance? Honest question, as I didn't read the official forum yet.

That's what the forums are saying and a dev confirmed is working as intended.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #125 on: June 15, 2007, 01:22:04 PM

[Are you implying that the item/token needed to complete the quest is dropped for just 1 raidmember out of 24 for every single instance? Honest question, as I didn't read the official forum yet.

That is exactly what I'm saying, and MoL (something of Lions) said that is by design and the raids are not supposed to be casual friendly (from that standpoint.)

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Hound
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Reply #126 on: June 15, 2007, 02:07:52 PM

here is the thread http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=68414 and MoL's post is on page 3.

Quote

Well, it's not supposed to be casual-friendly, ByDesign -- this is one area where we're letting the gloves come off a little. The raid is difficult enough that we feel comfortable being more unforgiving than we would in more casual-friendly areas. The flipside to having 'gameplay that suits different playstyles' is that not every playstyle is going to appeal to you personally. Everyone in the raid should be able to accomplish something on every run into Helegrod; it's just that three or four people in every run will be able to accomplish a little extra.

MoL


 This just plain sucks and makes me a little less enthusiastic about the game today than I was yesterday. What I am waiting on now is for someone to get a epic drop from a solo mob to compare against the raid drop.

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
Falconeer
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Reply #127 on: June 15, 2007, 05:02:37 PM

Holy shit, that sucks.
Not because you may raid for nothing for 6 hours (or more) straight. But because of all the trash mobs you'll have to kill, day after day, until you drop your token (and after that you have to do it again to help guildees).

Hound
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Reply #128 on: June 16, 2007, 09:08:37 AM

After a bit of reflection I decided I am back to the opinion of I don't care about the raids one way or the other as long as I have plenty of content as a solo/small group player. If someone wants to spend 30 or 40  hours of their life each week chasing some virtual armor that is 5% better than mine then let them knock themselves out.

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
Xanthippe
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Reply #129 on: June 16, 2007, 10:57:12 AM

Back to WoW for me, then. 

And waiting for the next MMO that doesn't have this kind of raiding.

Some types of repetitive gameplay is fine (fishing ftw!), but raiding as repetitive gameplay, no thanks.  If I'm in a raid, I want to be fighting a war against other people, not pushing the same buttons for the same encounters for the same mobs over and over again week after week. While some might enjoy that type of static gameplay, I do not, and will not pay for it.
Xerapis
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Reply #130 on: June 16, 2007, 12:32:39 PM

Come to Dath'Remar!  Dath'Remar loves you!!!!   cool

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Hound
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Reply #131 on: June 16, 2007, 03:39:47 PM

Back to WoW for me, then. 

And waiting for the next MMO that doesn't have this kind of raiding.

Some types of repetitive gameplay is fine (fishing ftw!), but raiding as repetitive gameplay, no thanks.  If I'm in a raid, I want to be fighting a war against other people, not pushing the same buttons for the same encounters for the same mobs over and over again week after week. While some might enjoy that type of static gameplay, I do not, and will not pay for it.

So because LoTRO puts a raid in you go running back to a game that has dozens of raids...umm right. If you prefer WoW over LoTRO that is all well and good but please do not insult my intelligence by saying it is because of a raid instance.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 03:44:47 PM by Hound »

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
Trippy
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Reply #132 on: June 16, 2007, 05:23:17 PM

Back to WoW for me, then. 

And waiting for the next MMO that doesn't have this kind of raiding.

Some types of repetitive gameplay is fine (fishing ftw!), but raiding as repetitive gameplay, no thanks.  If I'm in a raid, I want to be fighting a war against other people, not pushing the same buttons for the same encounters for the same mobs over and over again week after week. While some might enjoy that type of static gameplay, I do not, and will not pay for it.
So because LoTRO puts a raid in you go running back to a game that has dozens of raids...umm right. If you prefer WoW over LoTRO that is all well and good but please do not insult my intelligence by saying it is because of a raid instance.
In WoW you can fight in battlegrounds to (eventually) get raid-type loot. Notice her sentence about fighting a war against other people.

cmlancas
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Reply #133 on: June 16, 2007, 07:17:57 PM

I really still think they are missing the boat by not enabling lengthy solo quests with raid-type rewards. Is there a fundamental flaw in it?

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Xanthippe
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Reply #134 on: June 16, 2007, 08:08:47 PM

So because LoTRO puts a raid in you go running back to a game that has dozens of raids...umm right. If you prefer WoW over LoTRO that is all well and good but please do not insult my intelligence by saying it is because of a raid instance.

I don't raid in WoW at all any more.  I rarely run instances.

My hobbies include AV, crafting and leveling alts.  Mostly AV and crafting.

Trippy
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Reply #135 on: June 16, 2007, 08:15:03 PM

I really still think they are missing the boat by not enabling lengthy solo quests with raid-type rewards. Is there a fundamental flaw in it?
Extra work which may be multplied by the fact that classes have differing solo capabilities. E.g. instead of tailoring one set of encounters per quest you might need up to 7 and then when you multiply that by the number of steps to reach the end reward you are looking at a gineormous amount of additional work.
Threash
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Reply #136 on: June 16, 2007, 08:21:26 PM

So because LoTRO puts a raid in you go running back to a game that has dozens of raids...umm right. If you prefer WoW over LoTRO that is all well and good but please do not insult my intelligence by saying it is because of a raid instance.

I don't raid in WoW at all any more.  I rarely run instances.

My hobbies include AV, crafting and leveling alts.  Mostly AV and crafting.



The beauty of it is that doing only that you will have plenty of epics.

I am the .00000001428%
cmlancas
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Reply #137 on: June 16, 2007, 08:30:27 PM


Extra work which may be multplied by the fact that classes have differing solo capabilities. E.g. instead of tailoring one set of encounters per quest you might need up to 7 and then when you multiply that by the number of steps to reach the end reward you are looking at a gineormous amount of additional work.


Fair enough, but having done too many dungeon crawls that take forever, I think a change of pace would be refreshing to many in-game. Agree?

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Phred
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Reply #138 on: June 17, 2007, 02:11:05 AM


Extra work which may be multplied by the fact that classes have differing solo capabilities. E.g. instead of tailoring one set of encounters per quest you might need up to 7 and then when you multiply that by the number of steps to reach the end reward you are looking at a gineormous amount of additional work.


Fair enough, but having done too many dungeon crawls that take forever, I think a change of pace would be refreshing to many in-game. Agree?

LoTR lives to put you through endless dungeon crawls as discussed on the other thread, so what makes you think they wouldn't just do more of the same for a group quest? From the imagination they've shown so far, a long group quest would involve returning to the same instance for a rare drop off one of the bosses for all 6 people in the group. And endless trash clears. Even worse if they put it outdoors in an elite area. Which is essentially what the raiders have to deal with and many of the single group fans say they'd be fine with it too. Turbine's quests are all over the map from my current experience playing a few characters, with the L30 guardian quest being a total joke.


Hound
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Reply #139 on: June 17, 2007, 05:00:29 AM

Back to WoW for me, then. 

And waiting for the next MMO that doesn't have this kind of raiding.

Some types of repetitive gameplay is fine (fishing ftw!), but raiding as repetitive gameplay, no thanks.  If I'm in a raid, I want to be fighting a war against other people, not pushing the same buttons for the same encounters for the same mobs over and over again week after week. While some might enjoy that type of static gameplay, I do not, and will not pay for it.
So because LoTRO puts a raid in you go running back to a game that has dozens of raids...umm right. If you prefer WoW over LoTRO that is all well and good but please do not insult my intelligence by saying it is because of a raid instance.
In WoW you can fight in battlegrounds to (eventually) get raid-type loot. Notice her sentence about fighting a war against other people.



Then she should say I am going back to WoW because I prefer the battlegrounds over the MvP

In Lotro you can get raid type loot by doing group and solo quests and if PvP is your thing you can fight against other people in the Etteinmoors (sp?). Good god they add one raid and the sky is falling the sky is falling mentality runs rampant. If people like WoW or EQII or Eve or whatever better that is fine, what  saying I am quitting because they added a single raid instance is about a weak of a excuse as you can get. So far it has not changed the game for me one iota. I solo'ed all Friday evening and duo'ed for a few hours yesterday and those people raiding did not seem to affect me at all. Wonders never cease.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 05:24:52 AM by Hound »

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
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