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Author Topic: End game? Raids?  (Read 53955 times)
Zedword
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Posts: 21


Reply #70 on: June 08, 2007, 09:08:25 AM

I'd say the defining mechanism of the genre is an online adventure with many other people that are enjoying the same experience as you are. Not raiding.

So you think the defining mechanism is a lot of people enjoying the same experience.

And what is a raid? an in game experience with a lot of people simultaneously.

Hrm.....

--Zedword, wooosh
cmlancas
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Posts: 2511


Reply #71 on: June 08, 2007, 09:10:17 AM

I'd say the defining mechanism of the genre is an online adventure with many other people that are enjoying the same experience as you are. Not raiding.

So you think the defining mechanism is a lot of people enjoying the same experience.

And what is a raid? an in game experience with a lot of people simultaneously.

Hrm.....

--Zedword, wooosh

Twenty or Forty as opposed to thousands.

Thanks, please drive through.

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Zedword
Terracotta Army
Posts: 21


Reply #72 on: June 08, 2007, 09:21:16 AM

I'd say the defining mechanism of the genre is an online adventure with many other people that are enjoying the same experience as you are. Not raiding.

So you think the defining mechanism is a lot of people enjoying the same experience.

And what is a raid? an in game experience with a lot of people simultaneously.

Hrm.....

--Zedword, wooosh

Twenty or Forty as opposed to thousands.

Thanks, please drive through.

How many of those thousands did you talk to today? How many are on your friends list? Name 40 people, their class, and their spec (if applicable.) what are they like to talk to? what do they do in real life?

Your argument is totally and completely self centered. You're getting upset because god forbid someone make content not specifically for you.

Again: no one is telling how or how not to play. Developers should make engaging large and small scale content. But for ANYONE who more enjoys one to complain about the other is just stupid. The game is there to provide both, even if /gasp, you don't do one of them!

--Zedword, but i want it now daddy
cmlancas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2511


Reply #73 on: June 08, 2007, 09:47:43 AM

I'd say the defining mechanism of the genre is an online adventure with many other people that are enjoying the same experience as you are. Not raiding.

So you think the defining mechanism is a lot of people enjoying the same experience.

And what is a raid? an in game experience with a lot of people simultaneously.

Hrm.....

--Zedword, wooosh

Twenty or Forty as opposed to thousands.

Thanks, please drive through.

How many of those thousands did you talk to today? How many are on your friends list? Name 40 people, their class, and their spec (if applicable.) what are they like to talk to? what do they do in real life?

Your argument is totally and completely self centered. You're getting upset because god forbid someone make content not specifically for you.

Again: no one is telling how or how not to play. Developers should make engaging large and small scale content. But for ANYONE who more enjoys one to complain about the other is just stupid. The game is there to provide both, even if /gasp, you don't do one of them!

--Zedword, but i want it now daddy

How in the fuck do you make assumptions as to what I do/don't do? I for one WILL be engaging in raid content if it is presented, but I do defend the casual who won't be. MMOs can't just cater to the hardcores that want to stick their cock in a vice and turn the knob for days upon days just so they can be shiny. I honestly believe those days are gone.

Unfortunately you just called me names instead of attacking my argument. And telling me what developers should do and calling me stupid doesn't say anything about my post. l2argue, plz.

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Der Helm
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Posts: 4025


Reply #74 on: June 08, 2007, 09:59:33 AM

rewards are the carrots in front of us, the horses pulling along the MMO companies. The more rewards we get, the more we pull. The longer it takes us to get each particular reward, the more we pull. Changing that principle drops subscriptions, dropping subscriptions drops the bottom line. Looking for changes to a cash cow's bottom line because you don't/won't/can't put in that kind of time is a sisyphysian labor.

He is right. Sad but true.

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
Riggswolfe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8031


Reply #75 on: June 08, 2007, 10:01:55 AM

Again: no one is telling how or how not to play. Developers should make engaging large and small scale content. But for ANYONE who more enjoys one to complain about the other is just stupid. The game is there to provide both, even if /gasp, you don't do one of them!

--Zedword, but i want it now daddy

You are and you aren't in the same breath. You're simultaneously saying "you don't have to play my way" while also saying "but if you don't you don't deserve any kind of good loot, you know, those carrots that make the game go round I just talked about." do you not see the disconnect there?

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Xanthippe
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Posts: 4779


Reply #76 on: June 08, 2007, 10:30:13 AM

Ya I guess I was just curious, as the game obviously was giving the message Raids are Coming as early as beta, if you are going to leave when they appear, why sign up to begin with?

Because typically I enjoy the game from 1-50.  The raiding game at 50 is not fun for me.

Unless there's something else to do at 50 that I find fun, it's time to bail.

Like I said before, I don't need a game to live in.  I just want a game to play. 
Xanthippe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4779


Reply #77 on: June 08, 2007, 10:37:07 AM

rewards are the carrots in front of us, the horses pulling along the MMO companies. The more rewards we get, the more we pull. The longer it takes us to get each particular reward, the more we pull. Changing that principle drops subscriptions, dropping subscriptions drops the bottom line. Looking for changes to a cash cow's bottom line because you don't/won't/can't put in that kind of time is a sisyphysian labor.

He is right. Sad but true.

He is sort of right.

If it takes me too long to get to max_level and I stop having fun along the way (see CoX), then I stop playing.  Too much repetition and grind.

If I'm at max_level and I stop having fun (DAOC, WoW, Guild Wars, various muds), then I stop playing.  Seen everything I want to see, and I hate raiding.  Made plenty of alts to see all the content I want to see.

I am wondering how long Zedword has been playing and raiding. Maybe I've played too long, slain too many mobs, been on too many raids.  It's just not fun for me any more.

There are other models out there besides a raiding end game.

Zedword
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Posts: 21


Reply #78 on: June 08, 2007, 10:43:29 AM

I'd say the defining mechanism of the genre is an online adventure with many other people that are enjoying the same experience as you are. Not raiding.

So you think the defining mechanism is a lot of people enjoying the same experience.

And what is a raid? an in game experience with a lot of people simultaneously.

Hrm.....

--Zedword, wooosh

Twenty or Forty as opposed to thousands.

Thanks, please drive through.

How many of those thousands did you talk to today? How many are on your friends list? Name 40 people, their class, and their spec (if applicable.) what are they like to talk to? what do they do in real life?

Your argument is totally and completely self centered. You're getting upset because god forbid someone make content not specifically for you.

Again: no one is telling how or how not to play. Developers should make engaging large and small scale content. But for ANYONE who more enjoys one to complain about the other is just stupid. The game is there to provide both, even if /gasp, you don't do one of them!

--Zedword, but i want it now daddy

How in the fuck do you make assumptions as to what I do/don't do? I for one WILL be engaging in raid content if it is presented, but I do defend the casual who won't be. MMOs can't just cater to the hardcores that want to stick their cock in a vice and turn the knob for days upon days just so they can be shiny. I honestly believe those days are gone.

Unfortunately you just called me names instead of attacking my argument. And telling me what developers should do and calling me stupid doesn't say anything about my post. l2argue, plz.

There is nothing to argue, you have no point other than "nuh uh, we get stuff too!" You're not arguing, you're crying, or crying for the casuals like the martyr you claim to be, because someone else got a new shiny legendary item and won't share it with you. Tough nuggets.

Again: no one is telling how or how not to play. Developers should make engaging large and small scale content. But for ANYONE who more enjoys one to complain about the other is just stupid. The game is there to provide both, even if /gasp, you don't do one of them!

--Zedword, but i want it now daddy

You are and you aren't in the same breath. You're simultaneously saying "you don't have to play my way" while also saying "but if you don't you don't deserve any kind of good loot, you know, those carrots that make the game go round I just talked about." do you not see the disconnect there?

No, i don't. Because i don't think you necessarily are entitled to the same loot as someone who plays 50 hours more than you a week...you think you are. That's YOUR problem, not the developers.

The entire genre is based on 1 defining principle: time invested yields reward. Rewards make you play. More rewards make you play longer. Playing longer makes you keep your subscription going. That is the premise MMOs are built upon, that is what pays the bills.

And no, paying the same monthly subscription does not entitle you to the same rewards, it entitles you to the same opportunity to earn those rewards.

I never said don't play how you want...but, just the same....the games are about choices. If the choice you make is to not partake in X epic quest, you don't get X quest's epic reward. That was your choice.

The two MMOs i played the most, though i've played most all of them, were everquest and wow. I was always casual in everquest, i did not have a full weekend to invest to camping spawns or plain raids. In WoW, i started off as a casual player, though eventually became a daily raider.

At no point, through years of everquest or wow non-raiding did i ever feel I was entitled to the same rewards as those that did. It's a LOT more "work" than small or solo content will ever be. Did I think i deserved great items? Sure, and I went out and farmed the instances and spawns available to my play style and had the best gear possible for my character, and the choices I made with my play time and style. Did the fact that Basementdweller and the rest of the DragonKillers had better gear bother me? No, as it did nothing to diminish what I had accomplished which was making my character the best he could be, for me.

Notable exceptions to this are pvp-centric games, which...most all of them provide ways for you to get superior PvP gear through PvP, in a reliable and modular way. This was a major problem in wow, for instance (even though calling wow "pvp centric" makes me cringe) back when the PvE tier sets were the best gear in the game for all circumstances, but that has since been rectified through the expanded crafting and arena/bg reward systems.

Is raiding as it stands in games today perfect? No, far from it. But neither is solo content. Both need work, and any decent PvE MMO should focus on making BOTH better...for solo content that typically means more dynamic, more entertaining, less grindy, and more expansive beyond the level cap. For raiding, that means less repetitive less like "work"

Taking either out of a game, or not giving either the attention they deserve is foolish.

--Zedword, foo foo foo fooolish
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 10:48:57 AM by Zedword »
Xanthippe
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Posts: 4779


Reply #79 on: June 08, 2007, 10:48:46 AM

I think you are confusing what is being said.

I don't think anyone is saying that casuals want the same loot as raiders.

However, casuals want the same amount of developer resources going toward _their_ end game.

Because, you know, casual players actually pay the same amount of money per month, while costing less, than raiders.  So MMO companies end up with a greater net gain from casual dollars than raider dollars.
Zedword
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Posts: 21


Reply #80 on: June 08, 2007, 10:58:15 AM

I think you are confusing what is being said.

I don't think anyone is saying that casuals want the same loot as raiders.

However, casuals want the same amount of developer resources going toward _their_ end game.

Because, you know, casual players actually pay the same amount of money per month, while costing less, than raiders.  So MMO companies end up with a greater net gain from casual dollars than raider dollars.

Casuals are also a lot more fickle, and quit a lot more (for reasons other than "not enough content"). Raiders are a smaller, yet much more loyal fanbase. Raiding also serves a motivational factor for a lot of people who aren't even raiding, as they'll continue on thinking one day they'll get a chance to go on a raid.

The main problem lies in the gray area between the two demographics. Raiders have raid content to keep them happy. The MAJORITY of "casual" players will take so long to get the level cap, they already have years worth of content available to them. There are people still going from 60-70 in wow, still experiencing the first of the burning crusade instances...that is what the speed the majority of casual players operate at, thats why they get content updates less often, since it takes them longer to go through what is given.

The problem childs are the ones who act like they are casual, but still play 20+ hours a week. What do you do with players like that? It doesn't matter what content you put out practically, they'll still finish it in a month (outside of the raid content they choose to not endure) what enjoyable content is there for that type of player? A crafting system? Still mastered relatively quickly, and very difficult to make "fun" Repeatable quest system that generates new quests? like in Coh? /seppuku sounds better than killing the band of X in the cave/castle/fort/enclave of the Y again.

Adding in a bunch of story driven solo quests? thats a lot harder to regularly implement than 1 raid instance that will keep thousands people busy for 6 months.

The problem is, casual players who don't play with casual time....they are the hardest to provide for. (and,  quite honestly...seem like the smallest minority of players)

--Zedword, is what it is
Xanthippe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4779


Reply #81 on: June 08, 2007, 11:14:59 AM


Casuals are also a lot more fickle, and quit a lot more (for reasons other than "not enough content"). Raiders are a smaller, yet much more loyal fanbase. Raiding also serves a motivational factor for a lot of people who aren't even raiding, as they'll continue on thinking one day they'll get a chance to go on a raid.

The main problem lies in the gray area between the two demographics. Raiders have raid content to keep them happy. The MAJORITY of "casual" players will take so long to get the level cap, they already have years worth of content available to them. There are people still going from 60-70 in wow, still experiencing the first of the burning crusade instances...that is what the speed the majority of casual players operate at, thats why they get content updates less often, since it takes them longer to go through what is given.

The problem childs are the ones who act like they are casual, but still play 20+ hours a week. What do you do with players like that? It doesn't matter what content you put out practically, they'll still finish it in a month (outside of the raid content they choose to not endure) what enjoyable content is there for that type of player? A crafting system? Still mastered relatively quickly, and very difficult to make "fun" Repeatable quest system that generates new quests? like in Coh? /seppuku sounds better than killing the band of X in the cave/castle/fort/enclave of the Y again.

Adding in a bunch of story driven solo quests? thats a lot harder to regularly implement than 1 raid instance that will keep thousands people busy for 6 months.

The problem is, casual players who don't play with casual time....they are the hardest to provide for. (and,  quite honestly...seem like the smallest minority of players)

--Zedword, is what it is

While I understand what you're saying, I don't buy it.

If a game is in decline, ok sure, maybe your argument about player retention and loyalty (better known as Obsessive-Compulsive Addictive Behavior) comes into play.  Casuals may be more fickle but there's a hell of a lot more of them.

Dark Age of Camelot was quite successful _until_ they added high end game raid content.  A lot of people quit after Trials of Atlantis, because they wanted to pvp, not level their equipment (one of the dumber ideas in mmo development).

I played a mud for years after reaching max_level because it had a fun trading minigame - one that I could do alone or with people, my choice.  I stopped playing after they screwed with it so that I could no longer trade alone.

Raiders who play 50 hrs/week still cost more than double what a 20 hr/week casual player does (call these "heavy casuals).  100 raiders cost - at a low - what 250 heavy casuals cost, plus god knows how many regular casuals - another 250? seems like a safe bet still.  So 100 raiders cost what 500 casuals cost, sound about right?

Dev resources should be likewise allocated, don't you agree?  I mean, we're in agreement that those who invest more time should get better loot rewards.  Therefore, those who invest more money, or pay more money, or cost the developer less money, should get more dev resources allocated to them.

Zedword
Terracotta Army
Posts: 21


Reply #82 on: June 08, 2007, 11:41:12 AM


Casuals are also a lot more fickle, and quit a lot more (for reasons other than "not enough content"). Raiders are a smaller, yet much more loyal fanbase. Raiding also serves a motivational factor for a lot of people who aren't even raiding, as they'll continue on thinking one day they'll get a chance to go on a raid.

The main problem lies in the gray area between the two demographics. Raiders have raid content to keep them happy. The MAJORITY of "casual" players will take so long to get the level cap, they already have years worth of content available to them. There are people still going from 60-70 in wow, still experiencing the first of the burning crusade instances...that is what the speed the majority of casual players operate at, thats why they get content updates less often, since it takes them longer to go through what is given.

The problem childs are the ones who act like they are casual, but still play 20+ hours a week. What do you do with players like that? It doesn't matter what content you put out practically, they'll still finish it in a month (outside of the raid content they choose to not endure) what enjoyable content is there for that type of player? A crafting system? Still mastered relatively quickly, and very difficult to make "fun" Repeatable quest system that generates new quests? like in Coh? /seppuku sounds better than killing the band of X in the cave/castle/fort/enclave of the Y again.

Adding in a bunch of story driven solo quests? thats a lot harder to regularly implement than 1 raid instance that will keep thousands people busy for 6 months.

The problem is, casual players who don't play with casual time....they are the hardest to provide for. (and,  quite honestly...seem like the smallest minority of players)

--Zedword, is what it is

While I understand what you're saying, I don't buy it.

If a game is in decline, ok sure, maybe your argument about player retention and loyalty (better known as Obsessive-Compulsive Addictive Behavior) comes into play.  Casuals may be more fickle but there's a hell of a lot more of them.

Dark Age of Camelot was quite successful _until_ they added high end game raid content.  A lot of people quit after Trials of Atlantis, because they wanted to pvp, not level their equipment (one of the dumber ideas in mmo development).

I played a mud for years after reaching max_level because it had a fun trading minigame - one that I could do alone or with people, my choice.  I stopped playing after they screwed with it so that I could no longer trade alone.

Raiders who play 50 hrs/week still cost more than double what a 20 hr/week casual player does (call these "heavy casuals).  100 raiders cost - at a low - what 250 heavy casuals cost, plus god knows how many regular casuals - another 250? seems like a safe bet still.  So 100 raiders cost what 500 casuals cost, sound about right?

Dev resources should be likewise allocated, don't you agree?  I mean, we're in agreement that those who invest more time should get better loot rewards.  Therefore, those who invest more money, or pay more money, or cost the developer less money, should get more dev resources allocated to them.



Trials of atlantis is a very poor example. That was adding a pve endgame to a game that was very much a pvp game with a pvp player base. That is exactly why i've been careful to point out needing to implement raid and casual content for pve games. pve and pvp games are two totally different beasts.

You might not buy, but every game that has flourished for years had content designed for the hardcore players, every title with more casual play in mind has flubbed or been much less successful :)

--Zedword, i like flubbing
Riggswolfe
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Posts: 8031


Reply #83 on: June 08, 2007, 12:07:38 PM

.[/Sirbruce on] with apologies...

Quote

You are and you aren't in the same breath. You're simultaneously saying "you don't have to play my way" while also saying "but if you don't you don't deserve any kind of good loot, you know, those carrots that make the game go round I just talked about." do you not see the disconnect there?

No, i don't. Because i don't think you necessarily are entitled to the same loot as someone who plays 50 hours more than you a week...you think you are. That's YOUR problem, not the developers.

Actually, it very much is the developers problem. WOW is finally starting to learn this and I think it's why some things were changed in Burning Crusade. If you marginalize one playerbase for another, that playerbase will eventually stop taking it up the ass and move on to another game.

Quote
The entire genre is based on 1 defining principle: time invested yields reward. Rewards make you play. More rewards make you play longer. Playing longer makes you keep your subscription going. That is the premise MMOs are built upon, that is what pays the bills.

That's extremely simplistic and only really holds true for the masochist gamers and those who cater to them like EQ1, WOW 60+, and Brad McQuaid. The genre is also based on social networks and player investment in their avatars.

Quote
And no, paying the same monthly subscription does not entitle you to the same rewards, it entitles you to the same opportunity to earn those rewards.

Right. Where you disconnect from me is you believe the only oppurtunity should be in raids. That is old school MMO thinking and a dead end for the genre, not to mention this particular game in particular. Alot of this boils down to elitism. Raids are "hard" so you and only you deserve the best.

Quote
I never said don't play how you want...but, just the same....the games are about choices. If the choice you make is to not partake in X epic quest, you don't get X quest's epic reward. That was your choice.

This is again simplistic. If X raid (don't call it epic, the only part about raids that are epic are the time involved) quest takes 8 hours of butt-numbing, mind-bogglingly boring raiding and I have a life and only have 4 hours available there is not a choice, literally. I'm being told that because I have a life outside the game I am going to be literally punished for it. Now, if X raid quest and Y group quest chain and Z solo quest chain and let's not leave out W crafting quests all give X reward then what is the harm?

Let's say X raid quest requires 8 hours in a sitting and 23 other players, Y group quest requires 2 3 hour blocks and 1 2 hour block and 5 other players and Z solo quest requires 8 1 hour blocks and W crafting quest requires 8 hours of ore farming. The time involved is the same. A smart developer can make the other factors the same. So, why then, besides epeen bullshit shouldn't all four methods give a similiar reward?

Quote
The two MMOs i played the most, though i've played most all of them, were everquest and wow. I was always casual in everquest, i did not have a full weekend to invest to camping spawns or plain raids. In WoW, i started off as a casual player, though eventually became a daily raider.

At no point, through years of everquest or wow non-raiding did i ever feel I was entitled to the same rewards as those that did.

Good for you. You bought the bullshit and enjoyed it. And?

Quote
It's a LOT more "work" than small or solo content will ever be.


Horseshit. The only "work" is rounding up the players and learning the boss mobs. And the last only applies if you're a pioneer. Any intelligent raid leader takes strategies from other guilds and uses them. At which point it literally becomes "Stand there. If the boss casts X spell, do that. If it does Y action, do that. Watch your mana and drink pots if you run low." I've done raiding too. I had alot of the higher tier raid shit in WOW. You can't steamroll me with bogus arguments. If Raiding was hard "work" for your guild then you were incompetent.

Quote
Did I think i deserved great items? Sure, and I went out and farmed the instances and spawns available to my play style and had the best gear possible for my character, and the choices I made with my play time and style. Did the fact that Basementdweller and the rest of the DragonKillers had better gear bother me? No, as it did nothing to diminish what I had accomplished which was making my character the best he could be, for me.

And I wonder. How much time did you invest in the game as opposed to them? They probably put more time in in a shorter period of time but I doubt if they seriously outplayed you in the long run.

Quote
Taking either out of a game, or not giving either the attention they deserve is foolish.

--Zedword, foo foo foo fooolish

On this we agree, though from the tone of the rest of your posts I suspect it's bullshit.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 12:09:39 PM by Riggswolfe »

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #84 on: June 08, 2007, 12:08:58 PM

Errr..ignore this post. I tried to edit and hit quote instead. Silly me. :)

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Cyndre
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Reply #85 on: June 08, 2007, 12:19:26 PM

The casual vs. raider/hardcore debate is so tired.   Who means more to revenue?  Who is more loyal?  Who outnumbers who?

The bottom line is that a good MMO studio needs and values both playerbases.   Both playerbases consist of very loyal and very fickle players.  A perfect example is Loral from EQ1 and Mobhunter.   He was a very casual player that basically never raided even this late in EQ's life and he has remained more loyal; to that game than 99% of my close raiding friends who all jumped shit when wow hit open beta.  In the same token, My guildmates liked LoTRO but our ingrained comitment to wow and the endgame progress we have made thus far has kept us fairly well locked down.

Revenue numbers are always going to be sketchy and usually unriable and false.  Blizzard is always releasing information like XX% of our player base raids!@@!!@@@@@, but never any quantifing or qualifing statements to really differentiate who is casual about it and who is really raiding.  In the end, a subscriber is a subscriber and content needs to be implimented for all of them.

Raiding will naturally contain the greatest reward because it is the most complex and time consuming element of any current titles endgame.  Until a game is developed that has equal timesinks into the other elements of gameplay, there will not be a system that can support it, such as raid quality epics from crafting.   Moreso, if they did impliment a system where hardcore crafters could obtain priceless upgrades in the same capacity as raiders, casuals will still bitch that its a reward for "people with no life living in mom's basement" even if they are spending 40 hours a week in the city crafting or in the raid zone.

Also to all the jackoffs in this thread and every other thread who claim that people who raid  1) have no life 2) are bored 3) whatever fucking asshat comment you come up with, just fucking give up your tired argument.   I raid, have a fine life, and I enjoy 95% of my time doing it.   If you don't like it and don't have any other content options to keep you entertained fine, the MMO hasn't done enough to provide content that earns your business and should rightly lose your subscription to a competetor who does a better job of developing to all of their base, but don't fucking project your emo delusions of self-importance and superiority on those who are enjoying the content that is available.




CmdrSlack
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Reply #86 on: June 08, 2007, 12:31:09 PM

Quote
don't fucking project your emo delusions of self-importance and superiority on those who are enjoying the content that is available

You mean like how raiders got it added to LoTRO?

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Cyndre
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Reply #87 on: June 08, 2007, 12:47:18 PM

Quote
don't fucking project your emo delusions of self-importance and superiority on those who are enjoying the content that is available

You mean like how raiders got it added to LoTRO?


I beta'd LoTRO extensivly and there was never for even one moment hat I didn;t see a raid game being added.  It was talked about in dev chats, on the forums, in most reviews...

I don't really see how 'the raiders' got it added.   It was a feature on their design docs, whether you like to believe that or not.

CmdrSlack
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Reply #88 on: June 08, 2007, 12:49:00 PM

Quote
don't fucking project your emo delusions of self-importance and superiority on those who are enjoying the content that is available

You mean like how raiders got it added to LoTRO?


I beta'd LoTRO extensivly and there was never for even one moment hat I didn;t see a raid game being added.  It was talked about in dev chats, on the forums, in most reviews...

I don't really see how 'the raiders' got it added.   It was a feature on their design docs, whether you like to believe that or not.

Since there was specific discussion about NOT adding it, then a move towards it, I think that's really a matter of semantics.  One where you'd be wrong.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
cmlancas
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Reply #89 on: June 08, 2007, 12:51:08 PM

I think you are confusing what is being said.

I don't think anyone is saying that casuals want the same loot as raiders.

However, casuals want the same amount of developer resources going toward _their_ end game.

Because, you know, casual players actually pay the same amount of money per month, while costing less, than raiders.  So MMO companies end up with a greater net gain from casual dollars than raider dollars.

Casuals are also a lot more fickle, and quit a lot more (for reasons other than "not enough content"). Raiders are a smaller, yet much more loyal fanbase. Raiding also serves a motivational factor for a lot of people who aren't even raiding, as they'll continue on thinking one day they'll get a chance to go on a raid.

The main problem lies in the gray area between the two demographics. Raiders have raid content to keep them happy. The MAJORITY of "casual" players will take so long to get the level cap, they already have years worth of content available to them. There are people still going from 60-70 in wow, still experiencing the first of the burning crusade instances...that is what the speed the majority of casual players operate at, thats why they get content updates less often, since it takes them longer to go through what is given.

The problem childs are the ones who act like they are casual, but still play 20+ hours a week. What do you do with players like that? It doesn't matter what content you put out practically, they'll still finish it in a month (outside of the raid content they choose to not endure) what enjoyable content is there for that type of player? A crafting system? Still mastered relatively quickly, and very difficult to make "fun" Repeatable quest system that generates new quests? like in Coh? /seppuku sounds better than killing the band of X in the cave/castle/fort/enclave of the Y again.

Adding in a bunch of story driven solo quests? thats a lot harder to regularly implement than 1 raid instance that will keep thousands people busy for 6 months.

The problem is, casual players who don't play with casual time....they are the hardest to provide for. (and,  quite honestly...seem like the smallest minority of players)

--Zedword, is what it is

You're straight up, a fucking moron.
Let me refute everything that I can think of that is remotely close to a point you are trying to make

1) MMOs should cater to the raiders because they are the most loyal. Well, it seems to me that if you're the most loyal, you're going to stay anyway. I'm not saying shit on the raiders, but I already know I have your vote, why do I need to keep throwing more and more content just at you. This isn't EQ1, and VG failed. Sorry. If you're going to spout that hardcores give you the most word of mouth PR, I'd argue that you're slightly correct, but not as much. I think that the two party election system in the US is a good analogy. The politicians, when it comes time to vote, don't try to play for the hardline voters, they aim for the swing-votes. I staunchly believe that the same is true of MMORPGS -- they are won and lost in the "muddy middle."

2) The best loot must reflect a raid encounter. Why? Just because you and your friends got together at a certain time and downed a boss means that a solo player who has completed twelve steps to a different questline that is of similar difficulty shouldn't get the same quality loot. I call shennanigry. That's more or less saying that hardcores should be better because they gather in bigger groups. Rewards should be based on time invested (Which I think you said somewhere, so I agree), not on number of people multiplied by time invested (Which you also said, so I disagree).

3) It's a LOT more "work" than small or solo content will ever be. This was in reference to raids and loot that is earned through raids. Why the fuck would anyone play a game that felt like work? Sure, I sat in Velk's Lab when I was in high school and put up with all the bullshit that was a McQuaid grindfest, but I also have seen the error of my ways. I think WoW is good about this until 60 where the game again begins to feel like work. Notice that you pay to play this game, not get paid to play it, and you should enjoy it accordingly. If my idea of a game was work, I'd damn better be at my job in all of my free time because I can make an infinitely larger amount of money there.

4) The MAJORITY of "casual" players will take so long to get the level cap, they already have years worth of content available to them. Tell me this: What is the average level of characters in most MMORPGS. Betcha it's not the maximum! Also, let us not forget that there is such a thing as replay value in an MMO. If you're going to lie to me and tell me you've never played an alt, then fine, but otherwise, that's more money for the devs.

5) and,  quite honestly...seem like the smallest minority of players Just because you feel that way doesn't make it true. Casuals pay the bills. There is a reason why there is a debate between hardcore and casual, and it is because there are quite a few casuals out there. They aren't the smallest minority. They are the silent majority.

6) but every game that has flourished for years had content designed for the hardcore players Really? Name some examples of games that didn't have a great mid-game to go with that end-game. Notice that every game should have an end-game, I agree, but at the same time, if getting to 50, 60, or 70 sucks the shit out of assholes, then why would people do it?

7) There is nothing to argue, you have no point other than "nuh uh, we get stuff too!" You're not arguing, you're crying, or crying for the casuals like the martyr you claim to be, because someone else got a new shiny legendary item and won't share it with you. Tough nuggets. Telling me that I won't get shiny has NOTHING to do with this argument. I've been there. I've lead MC. I've lead a guild. It was okay and the people were fun, but at the end of the day, it felt like work with all the DKP and garbage and politics -- whatever. It's not about the items here, it's about gameplay. You can have your raids and maybe I'll decide to do them. But I have to be able to choose otherwise and still have fun or we have a WoW/EQ1/EQ2/the list goes on clone. You STILL have not refuted my point about raid-loot for raiders ala Luclin. Raiders will do it because they want people to know how badass it was to kill the named Nazgul or AoW or Ciquala or whatever the name may be.

I think that's about it. Best loot shouldn't be all about numbers multiplied by time. It should be about time alone. There should be different avenues for people to achieve the same goals that fit their respective playstyles. I believe that this tenet lies at the heart of successful MMORPGs.

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
cmlancas
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Posts: 2511


Reply #90 on: June 08, 2007, 12:52:32 PM

The casual vs. raider/hardcore debate is so tired.   Who means more to revenue?  Who is more loyal?  Who outnumbers who?

The bottom line is that a good MMO studio needs and values both playerbases.   Both playerbases consist of very loyal and very fickle players.  A perfect example is Loral from EQ1 and Mobhunter.   He was a very casual player that basically never raided even this late in EQ's life and he has remained more loyal; to that game than 99% of my close raiding friends who all jumped shit when wow hit open beta.  In the same token, My guildmates liked LoTRO but our ingrained comitment to wow and the endgame progress we have made thus far has kept us fairly well locked down.

Revenue numbers are always going to be sketchy and usually unriable and false.  Blizzard is always releasing information like XX% of our player base raids!@@!!@@@@@, but never any quantifing or qualifing statements to really differentiate who is casual about it and who is really raiding.  In the end, a subscriber is a subscriber and content needs to be implimented for all of them.

Raiding will naturally contain the greatest reward because it is the most complex and time consuming element of any current titles endgame.  Until a game is developed that has equal timesinks into the other elements of gameplay, there will not be a system that can support it, such as raid quality epics from crafting.   Moreso, if they did impliment a system where hardcore crafters could obtain priceless upgrades in the same capacity as raiders, casuals will still bitch that its a reward for "people with no life living in mom's basement" even if they are spending 40 hours a week in the city crafting or in the raid zone.

Also to all the jackoffs in this thread and every other thread who claim that people who raid  1) have no life 2) are bored 3) whatever fucking asshat comment you come up with, just fucking give up your tired argument.   I raid, have a fine life, and I enjoy 95% of my time doing it.   If you don't like it and don't have any other content options to keep you entertained fine, the MMO hasn't done enough to provide content that earns your business and should rightly lose your subscription to a competetor who does a better job of developing to all of their base, but don't fucking project your emo delusions of self-importance and superiority on those who are enjoying the content that is available.





Highlighted QFT.

f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Cyndre
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Reply #91 on: June 08, 2007, 12:58:53 PM

Since there was specific discussion about NOT adding it, then a move towards it, I think that's really a matter of semantics.  One where you'd be wrong.

Agree to disagree.  I've seen mention of raiding in LoTRO as long as I can recall.   So from where I am sitting, you, sir, are the one who is wrong.

On a slightly related note, they also unequivocally stated, no PvP and then later backtracked and added monster play to appease the pvp gamers.  So since when is a game company bound by some developers statement that was very possibly misinterpreted by you?   And why is your desire not to have raiding somehow superior to some other gamer's desire to have it?

CmdrSlack
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Reply #92 on: June 08, 2007, 01:14:19 PM

Since there was specific discussion about NOT adding it, then a move towards it, I think that's really a matter of semantics.  One where you'd be wrong.

Agree to disagree.  I've seen mention of raiding in LoTRO as long as I can recall.   So from where I am sitting, you, sir, are the one who is wrong.

On a slightly related note, they also unequivocally stated, no PvP and then later backtracked and added monster play to appease the pvp gamers.  So since when is a game company bound by some developers statement that was very possibly misinterpreted by you?   And why is your desire not to have raiding somehow superior to some other gamer's desire to have it?

I could give a rat's ass whether they add in raids or not. I just don't think that raids are as in-demand for a game like LoTRO, especially given the fact that they backtracked on a prior statement. I never said they were bound by it. I was simply contesting that they were planning for raiding from the get-go. Whether someone raids or does monster play or not doesn't matter to me. I'll do what I enjoy. I just think it's funny to claim that they were always planning raids, when they actually weren't.

Obviously, the input of those who enjoyed raiding and PvP changed some of the initial design parameters. The rest is a game of semantics (whether thsoe groups "got those features added").

So yeah, agree to disagree.  Except not. ;)

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Zedword
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Posts: 21


Reply #93 on: June 08, 2007, 01:27:32 PM

I think you are confusing what is being said.

I don't think anyone is saying that casuals want the same loot as raiders.

However, casuals want the same amount of developer resources going toward _their_ end game.

Because, you know, casual players actually pay the same amount of money per month, while costing less, than raiders.  So MMO companies end up with a greater net gain from casual dollars than raider dollars.

Casuals are also a lot more fickle, and quit a lot more (for reasons other than "not enough content"). Raiders are a smaller, yet much more loyal fanbase. Raiding also serves a motivational factor for a lot of people who aren't even raiding, as they'll continue on thinking one day they'll get a chance to go on a raid.

The main problem lies in the gray area between the two demographics. Raiders have raid content to keep them happy. The MAJORITY of "casual" players will take so long to get the level cap, they already have years worth of content available to them. There are people still going from 60-70 in wow, still experiencing the first of the burning crusade instances...that is what the speed the majority of casual players operate at, thats why they get content updates less often, since it takes them longer to go through what is given.

The problem childs are the ones who act like they are casual, but still play 20+ hours a week. What do you do with players like that? It doesn't matter what content you put out practically, they'll still finish it in a month (outside of the raid content they choose to not endure) what enjoyable content is there for that type of player? A crafting system? Still mastered relatively quickly, and very difficult to make "fun" Repeatable quest system that generates new quests? like in Coh? /seppuku sounds better than killing the band of X in the cave/castle/fort/enclave of the Y again.

Adding in a bunch of story driven solo quests? thats a lot harder to regularly implement than 1 raid instance that will keep thousands people busy for 6 months.

The problem is, casual players who don't play with casual time....they are the hardest to provide for. (and,  quite honestly...seem like the smallest minority of players)

--Zedword, is what it is

You're straight up, a fucking moron.
Let me refute everything that I can think of that is remotely close to a point you are trying to make

1) MMOs should cater to the raiders because they are the most loyal. Well, it seems to me that if you're the most loyal, you're going to stay anyway. I'm not saying shit on the raiders, but I already know I have your vote, why do I need to keep throwing more and more content just at you. This isn't EQ1, and VG failed. Sorry. If you're going to spout that hardcores give you the most word of mouth PR, I'd argue that you're slightly correct, but not as much. I think that the two party election system in the US is a good analogy. The politicians, when it comes time to vote, don't try to play for the hardline voters, they aim for the swing-votes. I staunchly believe that the same is true of MMORPGS -- they are won and lost in the "muddy middle."

2) The best loot must reflect a raid encounter. Why? Just because you and your friends got together at a certain time and downed a boss means that a solo player who has completed twelve steps to a different questline that is of similar difficulty shouldn't get the same quality loot. I call shennanigry. That's more or less saying that hardcores should be better because they gather in bigger groups. Rewards should be based on time invested (Which I think you said somewhere, so I agree), not on number of people multiplied by time invested (Which you also said, so I disagree).

3) It's a LOT more "work" than small or solo content will ever be. This was in reference to raids and loot that is earned through raids. Why the fuck would anyone play a game that felt like work? Sure, I sat in Velk's Lab when I was in high school and put up with all the bullshit that was a McQuaid grindfest, but I also have seen the error of my ways. I think WoW is good about this until 60 where the game again begins to feel like work. Notice that you pay to play this game, not get paid to play it, and you should enjoy it accordingly. If my idea of a game was work, I'd damn better be at my job in all of my free time because I can make an infinitely larger amount of money there.

4) The MAJORITY of "casual" players will take so long to get the level cap, they already have years worth of content available to them. Tell me this: What is the average level of characters in most MMORPGS. Betcha it's not the maximum! Also, let us not forget that there is such a thing as replay value in an MMO. If you're going to lie to me and tell me you've never played an alt, then fine, but otherwise, that's more money for the devs.

5) and,  quite honestly...seem like the smallest minority of players Just because you feel that way doesn't make it true. Casuals pay the bills. There is a reason why there is a debate between hardcore and casual, and it is because there are quite a few casuals out there. They aren't the smallest minority. They are the silent majority.

6) but every game that has flourished for years had content designed for the hardcore players Really? Name some examples of games that didn't have a great mid-game to go with that end-game. Notice that every game should have an end-game, I agree, but at the same time, if getting to 50, 60, or 70 sucks the shit out of assholes, then why would people do it?

7) There is nothing to argue, you have no point other than "nuh uh, we get stuff too!" You're not arguing, you're crying, or crying for the casuals like the martyr you claim to be, because someone else got a new shiny legendary item and won't share it with you. Tough nuggets. Telling me that I won't get shiny has NOTHING to do with this argument. I've been there. I've lead MC. I've lead a guild. It was okay and the people were fun, but at the end of the day, it felt like work with all the DKP and garbage and politics -- whatever. It's not about the items here, it's about gameplay. You can have your raids and maybe I'll decide to do them. But I have to be able to choose otherwise and still have fun or we have a WoW/EQ1/EQ2/the list goes on clone. You STILL have not refuted my point about raid-loot for raiders ala Luclin. Raiders will do it because they want people to know how badass it was to kill the named Nazgul or AoW or Ciquala or whatever the name may be.

I think that's about it. Best loot shouldn't be all about numbers multiplied by time. It should be about time alone. There should be different avenues for people to achieve the same goals that fit their respective playstyles. I believe that this tenet lies at the heart of successful MMORPGs.

You're obviously only hearing what you want to. Bringing me to my first point:

You are a self centered blowhard whose butt hurt someone else got toys they didn't.

Wah.

--Zedword, my tears flow like a river for your lack of l337 epix
Righ
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Posts: 6542

Teaching the world Google-fu one broken dream at a time.


Reply #94 on: June 08, 2007, 03:33:09 PM

How the fuck did I end up on the VN boards?

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
tazelbain
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Posts: 6603

tazelbain


Reply #95 on: June 08, 2007, 03:34:38 PM

I blame Vanguard.

"Me am play gods"
cmlancas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2511


Reply #96 on: June 08, 2007, 07:47:40 PM


You're obviously only hearing what you want to. Bringing me to my first point:

You are a self centered blowhard whose butt hurt someone else got toys they didn't.

Wah.

--Zedword, my tears flow like a river for your lack of l337 epix

What are you talking about man?! For Christ's sake, I'm saying that both raid and group-oriented settings can have equitable rewards as long as the time invested is similar. I'm not saying ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING RAIDING! or ZOMG RAIDING SHOULD HAVE THE BEST REWARDS! I want a middle ground. I don't know how the fuck what you are saying is engaging this point other than saying I suck because I don't want to raid. In that case, you're wrong, because I most likely -will- be raiding. Less name calling and more arguing.

I still stand by calling you a fucking moron though since I decided to deflate most of the things you said.


f13 Street Cred of the week:
I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
Johny Cee
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Reply #97 on: June 08, 2007, 11:09:15 PM

Falconeer
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Reply #98 on: June 09, 2007, 03:42:55 AM

Way to use the quote function, you new guys. A pleasure to read this page.

Trippy
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Posts: 23632


Reply #99 on: June 09, 2007, 05:44:00 AM

What the heck is going on in here?
Tebonas
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Posts: 6365


Reply #100 on: June 09, 2007, 11:28:55 AM

I feel like somebody walked into my room and urinated on my carpet.

Fuck it people, I'm not THAT Lebowsky.
Tannhauser
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Posts: 4436


Reply #101 on: June 09, 2007, 08:12:50 PM

My guild tried to raid Dol Dinien today.  It was a clusterfuck.  Can't complete quests and the uber special signature boss mobs dropped trash.

Granted this isn't an official raid zone but it was so painful I wanted to chew on a broken beer bottle.

I love this game but they have a lot of work to do on it.
Johny Cee
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3454


Reply #102 on: June 09, 2007, 08:24:40 PM

The 30s level range is not good. 

The bulk of the quests are group quests fighting lots of elites in either Dol Dinen, Fornost, or Garth Agarwen.  All have a high suck factor with a not great group.

Had an awful run in the Garth Agarwen instance the other day.

Supposedly, new zone will fix alot of these issues.
Venkman
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Posts: 11536


Reply #103 on: June 10, 2007, 05:40:41 AM

This is why I'm glad I haven't had a lot of time to play LoTRO. I'm only 20 now, just having gotten to Weathertop (awesome place, man there isn't a night I haven't been awed by some view). By the time I hit the 40s, we'll be well into Fall and all the lack of content for soloer issues will be solved. For me. FOR ME!!! :)

Quote from: CmdrSlack
I was simply contesting that they were planning for raiding from the get-go
By virtue of the game mechanic they chose, they had to be planning to have raids from the get-go. The real question is whether they were planning on that with Monster Play or whether the latter got added later. Based on interviews and when the latter got added in beta, I'm inclined to think it was Monster Play as the "other" endgame that was conceptualized much later.

As an endgame activity for DIKU, Raiding is the way to go. It's not for everyone, but it's for enough people who put in the time to get there. By the time casuals get there, either the level cap has increased or they'll get there and become raiders (or alt, or quit). You can't expect to retain everyone that hits your game.

WoW tipped the scales such that everyone can hit the level cap in a fairly reasonable amount of time, but the "everyone" pool is still the Achiever archetype. There is not a truly casual gamer in that pool, just a casual achiever.

To the point though, games need diversity of players. They need people who'll alt to continue keeping the early game invigorating for newer players. They need raiders and endgame PvPers to give everyone else an insight into what awaits them, to basically market the continuation of leveling. They need natural leaders and momentary leaders and just enough crafters to ensure putting the work into crafting was worth the development resources while still ensuring the endgamers got their uberest loot from raid-required drops.

They need all of these. Smallish games aren't small because they focused on casuals. They are small because they focused on one type of player at all.
Hound
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Posts: 162


Reply #104 on: June 10, 2007, 06:26:18 AM

For what ever it is worth they announced the decision change on raids almost a year ago.

http://lotro.turbine.com/article/130

The way I see it when the game no longer is fun I will no longer play, life can be real simple. I refuse to get my ass in a bind over what may happen, at the moment I ma more concerned with what can I do in the game that is enjoyable tonight.




Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
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