War

[Miasma]

I thought it was a longer version of Endie's "we massacred a gate camp and destroyed six carriers" post.

[Arthur_Parker]

Whoops, I was thinking it was Goons who had the huge loss.  /reads again

That's why I asked for a summary. =D It is excessively wordy but I guess that's how all these Alliance leaders write.

To be fair it does say it's wordy at the start and states you can just read the bold bits for the good stuff.  

I think this whole situation was funny, RISE rents an area of space from BoB.  They just got a defensive bonus (sov4) in their capital system because only they have owned the nearby systems for a couple of months.  They thought this was great and posted on the official eve forums boasting about it.  So a drunken goon fleet commander decided to lead a suicide op through the RISE system. Other RSF elements reported RISE capitals camping a gate and suddenly there's a massive fleet battle over absolutely nothing.
Congratulations for drawing attention to yourselves RISE  :-D

[Nevermore]

RISE has been boasting about how impenetrable their area of space is and how they've repelled all kinds of invasions for months now.  The chest beating predates the Sov4 announcement.

[Endie]

I thought it was a longer version of Endie's "we massacred a gate camp and destroyed six carriers" post.

Yep, it's exactly that.  I suspect that it's damage control: the leaders who made the decisions to engage, and then to reinforce failure rather than write off a carrier and disengage, have to know what their members are going to be saying about their losses.

That said, it's not the worst write-up of a battle i've seen: pretty frank in places.  I'd prefer they just lied to themselves.  The lag thing is a canard, though: Bob handle it better than goons, and we handled it better than Rise did, but as someone said in response to that thread, if it wasn't for the massive lag in Omist and Tenerifis at that point they would have been facing around 80 more ships that didn't make it to the fight in time.

Edit:

Quote from: The Mittani

That's the bit I like best.  Personally I'd have passed up on 8 capital kills in one battle if the alternative was having The Mittani involved again.  Obviously, Ihave no clue about high-up strategy or GIA stuff, but if I was Rise and I honestly believed the coincidences in their write-up, where once they start reducing their defensive posture they immediately get jumped, I'd be veeeery worried about spies.  But then, with all those constituent corps they've invited in, I'd be gobsmacked if there was only one GIA front organisation in there.  I guess we'll see if the POSes start offlining when we invade :-D

[Krakrok]

Summary:
1) RISE attempts to defend against common goon raids.
2) RISE gets their 90 ship camp together and camps one of their gates with snipers, a big bubble, and capitals.
3) BOB & Co. call for reinforcements.
4) 25 TCF show up and camps the other side of the gate.
5) Enemy cloaker fleet is watching RISE's camp.
6) RISE drops their bubble and starts to pull out to go help BOB. Caps go to a POS. 1/3rd the camp log off.
7) TCF and cloakers attack.
8) RISE engages. One carrier comes back to fight. Goons trickling in.
9) RISE receives intel that a big goon fleet (40-90) is coming.
10) RISE carrier getting it's ass rocked. Other capitals come back and save it.
11) Goons enter system, everyone lags to fuck, and goons kill all the RISE support ships.
12) Goons kill all the capitals.
13) The End.

[Slayerik]

14. Many sandy giners cry lag.

[MahrinSkel]

Well, on Monday, IAAAC decided to make a statement, and put 5 ED- towers and two 49-U towers into reinforced, apparently with the plan of derailing or pre-empting our planned op for last night.  1 of the 49-u towers (the JB) was timed to come out during the planned op, which was set for IAAAC's peak hours.  We had never before beaten IAAAC on a weekday in their peak.

Big Bada-Boom.  That was an IAC fleet of 120 getting hit by MC's new titan on the 4-07 gate in 49-U.  After that, we went ahead with our op, 10 hours and 11 towers (9 of which will come out of reinforced within a 2 hour window on Friday) later we're prepping to receive an expected AAA alarm clock logonski in ED-.

Oh, and Tyrrax was about to lose his new mothership.  He claims he didn't know he was being attacked when he logged out, that he didn't know the alt he logged in right away was on the same account, and that he didn't know that doing so would cause his otherwise doomed (but he, of course, didn't know it was doomed) Aeon to immediately disappear, and that he didn't know that evading death like that (which, of course, he didn't do on purpose) was a bannable offense.

Should I have put some of that last paragraph in green?

--Dave

[Endie]

You should see the delight on our side about this: that titan is so doomed.

Much as press-buttan-kill-fleet may be novel and exciting up north, down here we had vital strategic stuff happen, with GF pulling another timezone-spanning op that saw us euros hand over to EST, who passed on to PST, with some twitchy coke-heads doing the whole thing.

We had some of our POSes coming out of reinforced in one key system where Bob had made a push and RISE POSes coming out of reinforced in another system, twenty-something jumps away, with staggered timezones meaning that multiple trips were needed: much whining about 75-jump odysseys was forthcoming.

Bob had called an alarm-clock dread op, but that got waved off for some reason: perhaps watching us secure our position in D2 while simultaneously planting ourselves solidly in the RIT triangle, one jump from RISE's capital, was part of Bob's plan.  More likely the idea of operating against us away from the comfort of a cyno-jammer didn't appeal.  Anyway, we jumped massive distances, repped our POSes, destroyed RISE's ones (apart from the one we stole while they tried to rescue it by offlining it) and generally got the POS-warfare train back on the rails post-O0Y.

Serious point: I honestly wonder if Bob don't realise what control of P8 allows us to do, or if they just don't care about RISE going down?

Oh, and we killed a couple of Bob capitals.

[Slayerik]

Well, on Monday, IAAAC decided to make a statement, and put 5 ED- towers and two 49-U towers into reinforced, apparently with the plan of derailing or pre-empting our planned op for last night.  1 of the 49-u towers (the JB) was timed to come out during the planned op, which was set for IAAAC's peak hours.  We had never before beaten IAAAC on a weekday in their peak.

Big Bada-Boom.  That was an IAC fleet of 120 getting hit by MC's new titan on the 4-07 gate in 49-U.  After that, we went ahead with our op, 10 hours and 11 towers (9 of which will come out of reinforced within a 2 hour window on Friday) later we're prepping to receive an expected AAA alarm clock logonski in ED-.

Oh, and Tyrrax was about to lose his new mothership.  He claims he didn't know he was being attacked when he logged out, that he didn't know the alt he logged in right away was on the same account, and that he didn't know that doing so would cause his otherwise doomed (but he, of course, didn't know it was doomed) Aeon to immediately disappear, and that he didn't know that evading death like that (which, of course, he didn't do on purpose) was a bannable offense.

Should I have put some of that last paragraph in green?

--Dave

I respect FIX, they seemed to not be easy targets when we would hunt there. They seem to also hold their ground well vrs. about anybody. But I gotta ask, when is Bob/MC NOT saving your asses? I guess its good to be considered a strong front line alliance. Or something.

[Endie]

Oh, and Tyrrax was about to lose his new mothership.  He claims he didn't know he was being attacked when he logged out, that he didn't know the alt he logged in right away was on the same account, and that he didn't know that doing so would cause his otherwise doomed (but he, of course, didn't know it was doomed) Aeon to immediately disappear, and that he didn't know that evading death like that (which, of course, he didn't do on purpose) was a bannable offense.

Should I have put some of that last paragraph in green?

No, you should have put it between statements suggesting that you weren't even there from the look of it, and that you don't have a clue what happened.

I just tried your alleged logoff trick with three of my accounts, and it doesn't work.  I aggressed one with a jetcan ploy to avoid Concordokken, then logged him off and warped to member with the secnod, who was ganged.  Then I logged in on another character on the same account and my character didn't move.  What proof do you have of your assertion, which you stated here as fact and which I certainly believed because in the past you've tended to be fairly reilable (although I was very surprised given Tyraxx's history of happily throwing away hyper-expensive ships)?  What was your source: the eve-o forums?  Fix internal whines?

[neep]

As I  understand the big logoffski (terminating game & logging an alt on the same account in):

It used to work perfectly
It was fixed in a patch in March
People keep complaining/boasting it still works - and it still does apparently (maybe unreliable, maybe there is a trick to it, I don't know but sometimes ships vanish just like they did before the patch)

An abiding dude I know tells me that if you do the big logoffski right after jumping, while cloaked, it still works because the server considers you 'not in game' - you go *poof* after about 30 secs. I haven't tried it, mostly because when I get tackled, targeted and shot its too late anyway and I go *poof* in under 30 secs.

[Krakrok]

Do motherships become cloaked after a cyno? It's my impression that they can't use jump gates so if they don't cloak during a cyno that scenario would be impossible with a MS.

However, it would make sense that everything would cloak as a game mechanic when it changes from one system to another to avoid gankage.

[MahrinSkel]

Update on the FIX and Friends vs. IAC and Friends: ED- is now at 6 AAA towers to 5 FIX towers, if nothing changes in the next 6 days AAA will take control of the Mother Egg.  In 49-U, 10 IAC towers left reinforced today, 5 were destroyed and 3 were put back into reinforced, I'm not sure what the exact tower count there is now but we have something like twice as many as IAC.  It's fairly safe to say that IAC has never been further from taking 49-U.

Goons and RA showed up in 49-U (not in full force, but significant numbers, apparently wanting a piece of the MC Titan)), KIA has been hired (by a disgruntled ex-FIX who apparently hates us more for not defending his baby Mothership on two hours notice than he hates AAA and IAC for killing it) and assisted AAA in ED-.  MC's titan was getting a workout, there were 3 or 4 DD's today, none as decisive as Wednesday's.

As far as Tyrrax's Miraculous Escape, all I know is that he appeared to be aligning for warpout and using his Smartbomb to try and clear dictor bubbles, and he was being shot up *long* before he disappeared from Local.  Yeah, I was there, in Covert.

--Dave

[Endie]

AAA aren't the only ones to achieve strategic successes: Bob obviously learned from 9-9 that it was only a matter of time before they lost another 16 towers in D2E, their staging post for attacking Tenerifis.  Since they have no realistic chance of actually launching such an attack, they sent a fleet about 95 in numbers, strong in carriers and with a titan, to retreieve their POSes.  We had 130 or so scramble over in short notice, without capitals or (obviously) supercaps.  Nonetheless, despite taking a severe hit to our T1 frigate/cruiser backbone, we stole one of their towers.  Arf.

We, therefore (UNL? Edit: Venom) have taken D2E from Bob, which is nice, as it was a horrible system to attack and required constant, massively long convoys.  We'd been living there for ten days or so, and it was going to fall to us eventually, anyway.

Presumably the towers saved by Bob will be spammed into the RIT triangle, and it's interesting that, as in Tenerifis, Bob yet again need to take down POSes in one place to put them up in another.

As I understand the Fix front, they or MC brought in three or four more northern alliances on their side this weekend?  Must be getting busy.

[JoeTF]

Yup, towers were packed up, remains to be seen where they will pop up (though if you really don't know I lost all the faith in GF spies)
27 BS and a lot of assorted t2/t1 support is rather a lot for one tower for me, but otherwise it was a really nice, reasonably lag free fight. Makes you feel sorry you're leaving the system ;-)

[Endie]

Yup, towers were packed up, remains to be seen where they will pop up (though if you really don't know I lost all the faith in GF spies)
27 BS and a lot of assorted t2/t1 support is rather a lot for one tower for me, but otherwise it was a really nice, reasonably lag free fight. Makes you feel sorry you're leaving the system ;-)

Yes, we should really concentrate more on our K/D ratio.  If we don't improve it we'll lose to Bob just how we lost to LV and -V-.  Oh wai...

As regards the next location of the towers, why should I know?  I have no doubt that Sesfan and Tolon know, and that's just fine by me.  And let's face it, the same will happen in that system as the rest, in the end.  I just care that Bob don't have enough towers to contest D2 and another system.  Even a lowly peon like me knows that we have tons: the ones freed by us blowing up Bob's 20 in 9-9 ensures that.

Anyway, weekends are Bob's time to shine: they can get local superiority for two thirds of the time during 2 & 1/2 days and we get the rest of the week.  If a weekend ends with us blowing up and stealing some towers and taking key systems in D2 and P8 from Bob and Rise respectively then that's not a bad result from where I am.

[Arthur_Parker]

Looks like it's going to be an interesting few days in RISE space.

[MahrinSkel]

Well, one person's "strategic success" is another person's "failed distraction".  At this point, IAC has 6 large towers in 49-U (down from a peak of 17 last Monday), and I think half or more of those are reinforced.  The main IAC staging POS has been destroyed and replaced (with large numbers of enemies logged out there in for a nasty surprise when they log back in, including around a dozen capitals).  The POS AAA was staging out of has been completely stripped of guns and enclosed in bubbles (yes, they'll probably be destroyed, but nothing says "Fuck you" like logging into a bubbled tower).  FIX has anchored more towers, we're up to 27 Large (out of a total moon count of 48).  Tyrrax jumped his Aeon out right before the POS it was in was completely bubbled.

ED- sov may flip (we're close to the point where it will be impossible to prevent).  But not for long, and it doesn't matter.

--Dave

[Endie]

Looks like it's going to be an interesting few days in RISE space.

Indeed.  Without wishing to be obtuse, something wonderful is happening.

Edit: Although, on the immediate level, we got pounded on last night.  We did about six dumb things, and we did them badly    We seem to have one bad day almost every week.

[JoeTF]

Mistake #1: No russkies to save your asses on grid :P

[Endie]

Mistake #1: No russkies to save your asses on grid :P

Funnily enough, I don't think that was an issue.  Most of the really big demolitions of Bob that I've been in in the last couple of months - especially the two massacres we carried out in 9-9 this month when Bob tried to save their POSes and the same system when we drove them out at first - had very few Russians present - just a few hanging around for kicks.  Of course, that could be because (and I've seen this happen myself, quite seriously) if you even start cutting and pasting cyrillic phrases into local for fun, hostile count drops and engagements become harder to come by.

Anyway, for those who don't know, it looks like Bob have given up on Omist, although unlike in Detorid and Tenerifis it seems they've not hung around to be thrown out.  Rise are delighted with this decision to make a stand in their bit of Feyth, judging by the three pages of firesale contracts their members have already put up.

Edit:  Welp!  Our KOS allies are riddled with spies (old news) and they just "allowed" a ton of towers to go offline in some systems in Rise-land the day before we were due to break their sov.  Arf: well played, my opponent, well played...  We're fine, but those stupid dumbasses KOS will probably lose, like 40 towers or something.  Damn pubbies.  If you need something doing...

[Simond]

welp

Really, all this means is that RSF gets to kill RISE for a little longer, especially with the full version of BoB's plan Endie mentioned, in which BOB plan to...

Edit: Apparently, BoB's Big Plan is up on Kugu-whatsit's forum now, if anyone is interested.

[Comstar]

After the failed IAC attack on the Hurzton Forest (49-U), The BoB plan is to commit the 1st Panzer army to attack in the Direction of Antwerp (JZV) via Bastgone (FAT), while the red hordes sit on the Oder (Omist) having outrun their supply lines. This leaves Austria (RISE) by itself on the assumption BoB can take Antwerp before the Russians can reach Berlin.

I thought Kursk would happen in Omist, perhaps it will happen in 25S instead.

Someone want to post the complete BoB battle plan the Lucy Spy ring put on STAVKA's table?* (As I am too chicken to sign up for K's fourm).

This completes the domination of Redswarm Federation over BoB+Pets, as BoB now needs MC+FIX+everyoneelse to just fight IAAAC and BoB is clearly allowing RSF to keep the initiative on the eastern front.

Also, IAC got the egg back that was destroyed by McFIX a few months ago.

-----------
* - I could be completly wrong about this, but I do believe BoB needs MC to try and gain a victory now, and  FIX needs MC more than BoB needs RISE.

[Endie]

I could be completly wrong about this, but I do belive BoB needs MC to try and gain a victory now, and I FIX needs MC more than BoB needs RISE.

You're so right.  Bob desperately needs some sort of strategic win right now.  And MC are losing their air of invincibility with every supercap they and the other pets lose up there, while Bob is just being steadily pushed back in the south.  Ironically, after all their trolling, they can only think of uber-blobbing IAAAC and hoping for the best.

My own spurious analogy de jour is the Schlieffen Plan: Bob are the Germans and are betting they can knock The French (IAAAC) out of the war before the Russians (RSF) can roll over Prussia.  You see Eve is a lot like WWI...

[Slayerik]

So does that make goonies the Americans ? :)

[Ratadm]

wtf does that make me in the north?

[Yoru]

wtf does that make me in the north?

Finland.

[Endie]

Ach, I almost didn't post this - and this is a lot later than I normally would  - because fleet wins for RSF are just kinda normal at the moment, but just in case anyone is interested, we set about hitting a system with 34 Bob large towers in it yesterday.  We kept going right through Bob prime, until they realised we weren't going away and attacked, with a second force jumpbridging behind us.  By this point, the French and Russians (and the Euros like me) had gone, so it was pretty much pure Bob+Rise+a few YW and the like vs Goonfleet+ a few hangers on.

For those of you who persist in caring about lol K/D ratios we killed 29 BS for 10 lost, as well as reinforcing a hell of a lot of towers, some coming out at good times for Bob, some at better times for us.  More interesting, however, were all the killmails of bob battleships packed with goonfleet T2 snipers.  Changed days.

[JoeTF]

Actually, only 9 losses:P But I guess that's what's happening when you jump into three times enemy forces on a bubbled gate.
Funny how it's always frigs/cruisers when you lose and t2 snipers when you win. I guess I have hint for you- use t2 if when you want to win:P

[Endie]

Actually, only 9 losses:P But I guess that's what's happening when you jump into three times enemy forces on a bubbled gate.
Funny how it's always frigs/cruisers when you lose and t2 snipers when you win. I guess I have hint for you- use t2 if when you want to win:P

Joe, bless you, you're going by the killboard.net version.  The Bob version.  Where pets aren't allowed to post their losses.  Our token compulsive obsessive K/D whore/after action intel guy went through all the boards involved to scrape together our figures.  If you're going to play that game, at least play it properly.

And yes, you were always going to get massacred: it would have been amazing if Bob had lost only 9 battleships (as opposed to the real figure of 29 and a command ship and all the usual T2 nonsense), when they persist in throwing themselves desperately into gatecamps.  But then they have no choice, thanks to what we're doing, combined with their logistical problems.  Or maybe Lady Scarlet was in command of Bob's fleet again.  She's our best fleet commander.

Edit: Oh, and after I left (worst lag I have ever experienced: 1 load of ammo shot, 55 minutes to reload MY ROKH, had to ctrl-q when i couldn't dock for half an hour) there was an awesome conga line, supercaps and caps involved, on the gate.  That's how locked down we had the system.  One finfleet guy joined in.  One.  Bad turnout, Bobbits, we'll have to use the red pen if you don't shape up your attendance on mandatory conga ops.

Another Edit: Oh and we destroyed something in the region of 14 or so Bob large POSes.  More to come.

Fake Edit: And the northern guys listened to MC saying "don't you dare do anything while we are away superblobbing IAAAC or you'll be sorry" and reacted by blowing up a pet fleet, including plenty of caps.  Tri went blue to MM and Tri, too.

[Simond]

Tri went blue to MM and Tri, too.

If that lasts longer than a day or so, that's huge.
Like X-Box hueg.

Hope BoB weren't counting on any significant help from M.Pire et al.

[Endie]

AAA did, indeed take Fix's ED station.  That said, it's hard to imagine that Mahrin wasn't right: surely they can't hold it since every AAA POS in the system is in reinforced and they are facing MC, Fix, a variety of other pets, not to mention the bulk of Bob's main fleet now that they've been chucked out of Omist too.  At least there's a month without FIX's cyno jammer, so AAA can play capkiller games.

[MahrinSkel]

Now *that* was drama.  -A- apparently figured FIX and Co. weren't hardcore enough for an alarm clock op and timed their stront for between 9:15 and 11:40 GMT (5:15 to 7:40am Eastern time, and FIX is neavy on the US players).  We surprised them, and had about 120-150 in a combined MC/BoB/others fleet of 400 (after action debriefs indicate it was 110 out of 360).  Local peaked at 600 shortly before the first POS came out of reinforced.  Evil Thug and another titan with a random-letters looking name we pronounced "Hockey Puck" were in the system, the first 2 DD's from them didn't accomplish much.  First tower came out, we took it down with BS only (had about 150 and it still took an hour).  We put dreads on the field for the second, but because we'd stood them down before had a hard time getting them on the field. 

Got them in at about 30 minutes before DT, put them in siege, backed them up with the BS, and started shooting the tower.  They put Carriers outside the force field to start repping the tower, our BS engaged and killed one (turns out he got out at the last second with a sliver of structure), then the others went back in the force field.  12 minutes before DT, order went out to turn off Siege, 4-5 dreads either didn't or couldn't comply (lag was *awful*).  2 minutes before DT, Evil Thug appeared on grid in his Titan (probably was there cloaked the whole time), order went out for BS to align.  1 *minute* before DT, ET started his light show, BS were ordered to warp out but keep shooting the tower.  The exact sequence of events after that is impossible to say, the tower might have fallen before the DD, or after to the Dreads still on the field, or maybe ET made the final blow himself, but the tower was down at DT.  That made the DT tower count 5 to 4 in favor of FIX, we should have Sov back.  Now we're about to log back in and try to trap ET at the dead tower.

--Dave

[Vedi]

Now we're about to log back in and try to trap ET at the dead tower.

Sounds like a great battle! Why would he log in again until it is safe, though? I assume he escaped aggression timers etc. because of the downtime?

[Endie]

Obviously, the plan to kill ET failed.  As I understand it, ET admits that he did pop the tower.  Presumably since it was inevitably going to go anyway, he thought it was worth taking the the chance to try and take stuff with it.  I can't believe that he uses titans in conditions where i'd be nervous risking a rokh... 

With a 400-strong fleet, presumably all of the reinforced AAA towers will be destroyed (we had only 200 and blew up 19 in one sitting this week  ) by the end of the day?  when do the rest come out?

The cleansing of the system of AAA poses and return of sov was, as you told us before, surely inevitable.  The key outcome here is that AAA successfully broke sov, isn't it?  Inasmuch as they now get a month of playing any POS games they choose in a cyno-jammerless system.  That's certainly the way we've taken most of our targets so far: break sov 3, make Bob too scared to use dreads without jammers, shot POS, rape Bob when they try to save them, rinse and repeat.  Although doing that in the face of Bob and every single member of the bob petshop might be trickier...

What's the story behind the drop in FIX sov systems recently?  I noticed that they had dropped sov (across all levels) in about 20% of all systems in the last while.  Have they been transferring them to other pets?  If it's opsec then completely understood. (edit: 20% of sov 1, 25% of sov 2 and 3 systems).

In other developments, RISE have had to cancel their member remuneration package for pvp losses, even for capitals, since they have run out of money.  The suggestion I liked was that we set them to -2 so that they show up as orange to us, making it easier to shoot them first in fleet ops.