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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Eve Online  |  Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9! 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!  (Read 441230 times)
Yoru
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Reply #35 on: February 01, 2007, 10:53:51 AM

Eh. I find it hard to get all worked up over this. I sincerely doubt that there's institutional malfeasance over at CCP to the degree that they have an actual management directive, stated or otherwise, to support one alliance via cheating. CCP is over 700 people at this point; I find it much easier to believe that a bad apple or two abused GM or administrative powers to give his characters advantages which then were passed on to his corpmates.

That his corpmates happened to be RKK/BoB in this case is just icing on the internet-shitstorm cake.

Oveur and company aren't stupid enough to not let that sort of public flaunting of abuse go; they know that it'd hurt the 0.0 game, which is quite obviously their favorite - they wouldn't keep pumping out toys for 0.0 folks otherwise, and they've publicly stated that getting people to participate in the 0.0 "endgame" is their goal.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #36 on: February 01, 2007, 10:55:20 AM

I tried to read those threads, and this one, but still can't understand what the dev and BoB are being accused of.  Maybe it's because I don't know what a BPO is.  So what is this about in laymen's terms?  Did he spawn stuff for them, generate money out of nowhere, tell them where the best mining was or created better opportunities in their territory?  And they keep saying RKK, who are they to BoB?
Raging Turtle
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Reply #37 on: February 01, 2007, 11:01:18 AM

Perhaps I am a little more self-righteous than I should be - probably just rationalizing a reason to quit since I'm getting kind of bored with the game after a year  :-D

Still love the follow the crazy 0.0 stories...
ajax34i
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Reply #38 on: February 01, 2007, 11:01:43 AM

BPO's are blueprints from which you can make ships.  BoB is a player alliance, currently arguably the biggest/most successful, RKK (Reikoku) is an old player corporation (the equivalent of a guild) that generally has old-timers in it, and the accusations are that a CCP dev has joined this player corporation and revealed that he was a dev, then proceeded to give them (unspecified) advantages in combat by directing their fleets (supposedly using dev powers to gain intel about enemy movements), and also gave them some of the rare and very valuable blueprints (blueprints which would otherwise take billions of in-game cash or years of grinding and a lot of luck to get).

EDIT:  Keeping in mind that BoB, as a large alliance of guilds, does have access to billions of in-game cash, has many rare BPO's, and with the sizes of fleets they have and their Ventrilo organization, are arguably already good at PVP regardless of the actions of the dev, my take is that the whole argument is one of principle, and of CCP devs having to maintain a sense of impartiality in their game, more than about the actual impact that the dev had.  The person(s) who posted the "evidence" however want as much publicity as possible, and as big an outcry as possible, to result from this.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 11:15:53 AM by ajax34i »
foodini
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Reply #39 on: February 01, 2007, 01:25:30 PM

# psql -d eve_online
eve_online=# UPDATE player_stats SET lottery_points=999999999999999999999 WHERE player_id = me;

(wait for next lottery to fire)

eve_online=# UPDATE player_stats SET lottery_points=1 WHERE player_id = me;
eve_online=#\q

Yeah, you'd have to clear the database history of the change as well, but this illustrates a point.  _IF_ there were shenanigans, it is unlikely that the culprit will be caught.  If there are no retributions, there will always be doubt.  If you cannot play a game where this sort of thing can and _does_ happen, it's time to cancel your account and give up MMOs forever.

It's a painful reality, but when it comes right down to it, any dev who plays the game has an intimite understanding of its workings.  They don't go through growing pains - they're an expert player from day one.  They will succeed, they will be a major influence on the game. Again, if this is an issue for you, it's time to ebay off your character.

Sorry, that's my pessimistic rant for the day.
ajax34i
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Reply #40 on: February 01, 2007, 01:33:47 PM

Doubt this dev did that, the BPO seeding is a manual process, and they don't seed ships every time.  The question is, when was that specific blueprint created in the system, and did CCP seed that specific blueprint into the lottery at that specific time?  To me, it sounds like he was a minor/recently hired dev, and not someone with access to the lottery controls.  He may have been able to create his BPO out of thin air, but probably not to trick the lottery into giving him a legit BPO in such a way that the whole thing would appear legit upon closer inspection.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #41 on: February 01, 2007, 01:46:18 PM

From what I've been able to gather, the only open questions are if the BoB member/CCP employee that was forced to leave BoB came by his T2 BPO's legitimately (if he had just spawned them he would have been fired back then and the BPO's removed, so the question is if he used information only available to CCP to maximize his lottery payoffs) and if he or other CCP employees shared non-public information about upcoming changes that gave an advantage (for example, by letting them sell off BPO's before everyone knew the prices were going to tank).

Considering that everyone who meets a CCP employee in any context pumps them for information about what is coming (including me), the latter seems quite likely.  The former is a very fuzzy line, knowing that less popular agents are more likely to give you their BPO's wouldn't be across it, searching the database to find the least popular agents would be, knowing the *exact* types of agents that would give out BPO's of what kinds (it's not obvious in many cases) would be somewhere in the grey area.

"Caesar's wife should be above suspicion."  It's unreaonable and probably counterproductive to expect CCP employees to not play the game, and in Eve not joining an alliance is to cut yourself off from much of the most interesting parts.  Yet any success you have inside the game is potentially tainted, in appearance if not in fact, by the special access, you *can't* be just another player because you're going to know more.

I *really* doubt BoB is the only alliance with CCP devs in it, I'd be much more surprised if there was *any* major alliance without a couple of them.

--Dave

EDIT: Just to confuse things more, MMO developers tend to be better and more hardcore gamers than the average (points to his 10B isk net worth and alliance leadership position after 1.4 years of play).  Even *without* special knowledge, you could expect CCP developers playing the game since it's first playable alpha to be a little bit towards the high end of the curve.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 01:54:18 PM by MahrinSkel »

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Yoru
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Reply #42 on: February 01, 2007, 02:32:44 PM

Considering that everyone who meets a CCP employee in any context pumps them for information about what is coming (including me), the latter seems quite likely.



Some of us just make jokes and buy drinks, you know... :)
Wolf
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Reply #43 on: February 01, 2007, 02:41:17 PM

OMG YORU TOUCHED OVEUR

CAN I HAVE YOUR BABIES YORU???


ps: serious offer. not joking.

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
squirrel
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Reply #44 on: February 01, 2007, 06:20:40 PM

Yoru - sorry no quoting but I'm on a mobile.

Anyway - you state CCP is over 700 people now. 700? or 70? I find 700 FTE's for them hard to believe. 1/700 is v different from 1/70.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
hal
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Reply #45 on: February 01, 2007, 06:37:42 PM

Give it up CCP is Iceland. There one and the same now.

I started with nothing, and I still have most of it

I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are still on backorder.
squirrel
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Reply #46 on: February 01, 2007, 06:43:18 PM

? Iceland has well over 700 people. There is not they're.
Your point is unclear and uninformative. :P

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Yoru
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Reply #47 on: February 01, 2007, 06:58:35 PM

Yoru - sorry no quoting but I'm on a mobile.

Anyway - you state CCP is over 700 people now. 700? or 70? I find 700 FTE's for them hard to believe. 1/700 is v different from 1/70.

700. They have 20 programmers (as posted in the dev blog today). My numbers come from d4rkj3di's post in the CCP/WW merger thread. Specifically:

I just got back from EVE Fanfest (space nerds!) and from what I can tell they are holding off on an WoD Online for now and focusing on more of the EVE Offline. So, EVE Tabletop RPG, EVE Boardgame, EVE Graphic Novels and more CCG stuff.  CCP is almost 750 guys and a crate of vodka, when at this time last year there were 55. When asked about the nature of the deal, the CCP CEO joked that he was wearing a skirt and that this was almost like a marriage, and anyone who has been married knows who is in charge.

Emphasis mine.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 07:00:35 PM by Yoru »
squirrel
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Reply #48 on: February 01, 2007, 07:14:15 PM

Hrm yeah I realize they grew through that merger but that's substabtial and not organic. Irrelevant to the topic at hand but having been through M&A's several times (last one was 2500 people to 7500 and 2+ billion revenue) I would suggest that the company is still pretty divided along pre-merger lines and that the actual EVE   CCP number is much closer to 70..

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Yoru
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Reply #49 on: February 01, 2007, 07:25:15 PM

Hrm yeah I realize they grew through that merger but that's substabtial and not organic. Irrelevant to the topic at hand but having been through M&A's several times (last one was 2500 people to 7500 and 2+ billion revenue) I would suggest that the company is still pretty divided along pre-merger lines and that the actual EVE   CCP number is much closer to 70..

Quite possible, but none of us actually know. CCP busted the 100k subscriber cap in that timeframe as well, and that number may also reflect the acquisition of a larger CSR staff. There's also the Serenity (Shanghai) office and server farm (London) office, in addition to the CCPHQ (Reykjavik) and former-White-Wolf (Atlanta) offices. A likely number would not be hard to derive if we knew what White Wolf's size was in '06.

In any case, this little event hasn't really impacted my fun at all, so I'll keep happily sending bucks to the North Atlantic.
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Reply #50 on: February 02, 2007, 01:41:29 PM

When it came to forum war, BoB always got it their way, as in thread closures and post edits, while other big alliances (i.e. mine, Goonfleet), get shafted on sight, as soon BoB gets wind of it. If priviledged folks did indeed play with them, then impartiality my ass.

EVE (inactive): Deakin Frost -- APB (fukken dead): Kayleigh (on Patriot).
Trippy
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Reply #51 on: February 02, 2007, 05:06:35 PM

When it came to forum war, BoB always got it their way, as in thread closures and post edits, while other big alliances (i.e. mine, Goonfleet), get shafted on sight, as soon BoB gets wind of it. If priviledged folks did indeed play with them, then impartiality my ass.
Reminds me of the brouhaha with GFazier using his influence to get posts deleted on the WoW forum.

Toast
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Reply #52 on: February 04, 2007, 12:09:30 AM

The Devs were not simply playing the game. They were bandwagonning onto a powerful pvp force and making it unstoppable with their intervention. My only guess is that a negligent lack of controls allowed devs into a conflict of interest situation where they were allowed to indulge their own uber guild/powergaming egos at the expense of un-assisted alliances like ASCN.

This goes a hell of a lot deeper than just Devs playing. The corruption is pretty disgusting, especially in a zero-sum, sandbox game.

5 developer members in RKK alone.Other devs could be present in other BoB corps.

Evidence of one T2 lottery rigging of 8 BPO's given over to RKK/BOB by a dev lacking enough skill points to earn them legitimately. This is one single player caught. There is no way to know how many other BPOs have been passed to them.

Insider tips given to BoB fleets regarding minimizing lag and logging back in faster than opponents in fleet battles. BoB thus has an uncanny ability to win fleet battles with numbers that are too good.

Advance warning given regarding server events with significant rewards. BoB director chatter indicates that secret infos are regularly passed to them via e-mail contact with CCP devs.

Advance warning given on item nerfs/boosts allowing massively profitable market arbitrage.

Advance warning given on upcoming changes to complex game mechanics and new skill introduction allowing BoB pilots to have pre-requisite skills trained in advance.

Seemingly preferential treatment given to BoB in moderation of official forums. Policies regarding things like posting of internal chat from other forums are suddenly changed when BoB posts show up.

Other BoB malfeasance:
Buying and selling of accounts for real cash (witnessed by Devs based on their membership).

Locking down access of 10/10 complexes such that slave corps are not allowed. However, there is evidence that access was sold to a known Ebay isk farming corp for a huge kickback.

Widespread adoption and advocacy of 'metagaming', i.e. infiltrating and leaking information from private forums and teamspeak servers. But, apparently, Kugutsumen gave them too much of their own medicine.


A good idea is a good idea forever.
Furiously
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Reply #53 on: February 05, 2007, 01:43:43 PM

Maybe I shouldn't have bought those 2 timecards....

Morat20
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Reply #54 on: February 05, 2007, 02:51:36 PM

Maybe I shouldn't have bought those 2 timecards....
I wouldn't worry about it. Fucking forum drama is forum drama. EVE's forum drama is just more fucking political. :)

It's really not a big deal, but it's causing the usual suspects the usual hissy fits -- and giving a lot of people something to blame for their failures.
Sparky
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Reply #55 on: February 05, 2007, 06:10:41 PM

Maybe I shouldn't have bought those 2 timecards....
I wouldn't worry about it. Fucking forum drama is forum drama. EVE's forum drama is just more fucking political. :)

It's really not a big deal, but it's causing the usual suspects the usual hissy fits -- and giving a lot of people something to blame for their failures.

Assuming that hacker didn't just make it all up we really don't know what sort of deal it is.  A friendly dev or even a vanilla GM could easily turn a war around or just about anything else.  48 hours after Goonfleet and RA destroyed 16 LV capital ships a corp within that alliance claimed most were reimbursed because it was laggy - phenomenally fast for petitions often take weeks.  Now I was in that fight and it wasn't particularly laggy for any battle that size so they're probably lying, but shit like this makes you wonder.  That's why I don't like their practice of assigning GMs to deal with specific locations.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 06:27:07 PM by Sparky »
Toast
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Reply #56 on: February 05, 2007, 07:26:07 PM

The problem is that this is a single shard game. It's a zero sum game. Dev intervention affects a great many players because it so concentrated.

The devs would tend to congregate together, and why not pick the winning side?

How many devs you think were in ASCN? That's what I thought.

A good idea is a good idea forever.
Vedi
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Reply #57 on: February 05, 2007, 08:29:04 PM


I wouldn't worry about it. Fucking forum drama is forum drama.



They are from GoonSwarm via Eve Tribune, by the way.
Teleku
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Reply #58 on: February 06, 2007, 12:40:44 AM

I havent been playing for awhile, so I got bored and looked at the latest alliance map: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/crii/Latest.jpg

Did BoB really beat the shit out of the other side that badly in the last war?  I know they`re easily the best corp out there, but yesh.

Be kind of cool if they conqured the whole galaxy though  tongue.  They could just change their name to The Empire.

And thats quite a comback by RA as well, considering the point they were at when I was playing.

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Wolf
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Reply #59 on: February 06, 2007, 12:54:56 AM

Did BoB really beat the shit out of the other side that badly in the last war?  I know they`re easily the best corp out there, but yesh.
Be kind of cool if they conqured the whole galaxy though  tongue.  They could just change their name to The Empire.

Be careful with statements like that. The BOB Hate will HAVE YOU :P

The TCG Cards are really cool. They're, of course, biased, but still fun :)

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Strazos
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Reply #60 on: February 06, 2007, 12:59:06 AM

That map...what a fucking mess.


Also, what's up with the eastern portion of the map? Is that All generally-unclaimed 0.0 space?

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Wolf
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Reply #61 on: February 06, 2007, 01:02:58 AM

Also, what's up with the eastern portion of the map? Is that All generally-unclaimed 0.0 space?

Aye, those are the new regions. They only have drone NPCs (no bounty, no loot other than minerals) and have _NO_ conquarable or npc stations. You have to build an Outpost to use them properly.

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
5150
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Reply #62 on: February 06, 2007, 08:55:10 AM

Did BoB really beat the shit out of the other side that badly in the last war?  I know they`re easily the best corp out there, but yesh.

Be kind of cool if they conqured the whole galaxy though  tongue.  They could just change their name to The Empire.

Bear in mind that BOB claim more space than they can control - hence the use of 'slave' or 'pet' corps/alliances that BOB install in their outer regions who rule in their name and pay them some kind of tax

Interestingly Celestial Apocalypse IIRC illustrated during the BOB vs ASCN war that some slave entities arent up to the task of holding the region when BOB arent around to back them up leading to an influx of people to Fountain during the war and (I believe) BOB had to send a force in to 'clear it out' (which is technically impossible given its NPC stations, but you get the gist)
MahrinSkel
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Reply #63 on: February 06, 2007, 12:25:43 PM

BoB's structure is very fuedalistic.  Inside of BoB controlled space, you have three broad categories of players:

1) BoB corps and their immediate affilliates (industrial alt corps, "vacation" corps, etc.).  The 4 BoB corps are unusually large (400+ people each) and each acts as an independant military force.  In low-grade conflict, BoB corps move as whole units to various hot-spots and operate independantly.  In all-out war, BoB normally operates in a two forward, one reserve, and one offline mode, with two corps conducting active offensive operations against the enemy, one jumping from hot-spot to hot-spot, mostly defensively, and one out of the conflict and doing whatever the individuals in it do to make money (the reserve also does this when it can).

2) "Police force" alliances.  MC, Xelas, FIX, and now a few more that are being installed in the former ASCN regions.  Each of these qualify as a minor power in their own right, and they operate 99.9% independantly, with their own foreign policy, their own stations, and their own internal structure.  They are what outside alliances normally refer to as "pets".  They pay no tribute or rent, other than fees for use of the facilities in BoB owned stations.  Each also has some number of constellations in which they have total sovereignty and control.  If BoB is the empire, these are local feudal lords.

3) "Renters".  Corps of all sizes and small alliances not strong enough to take on full-time defense duties.  They pay for access to 0.0, which can range from having mining/ratting rights in an entire region, to exclusives for a single system, complex, or constellation.  These are the yeoman and serfs.

The important thing to remember is that the relationship between BoB and each of the "Police" alliances is unique, and evolving.  What applies to Xelas or MC does not neccessarily apply to FIX, and so on.  FIX and MC have a much closer relationship to each other than either has to Xelas, but this has little to do with the relationship between both and BoB.  In fact, the relationship between FIX and a couple of the new ASCN replacements is outright hostile, but as we have little contact with them that doesn't matter much.

Although the police alliances can call on BoB for reinforcements, they are extremely reluctant to do so, as needing help weaknes their negotiating position with BoB.  In the last 7-8 months, BoB has had to deploy the reserve corp to Querious exactly twice, both for only a single battle.

Each of the entities operating inside of BoB space has independant goals, which they are pursuing in ways that are mutually beneficial for them and BoB.  For the renters, it's a straight cash arrangement, they can make enough money in 0.0 to pay BoB and still do far better than they could in Empire.  For the police forces, it gets complicated, but for the most part they do what they would have done anyway, defend their chunk of 0.0 while building towards their own long-term goals, and BoB renters are shielded behind that defense.

--Dave

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Reply #64 on: February 06, 2007, 08:15:20 PM

The banstick has been used and hits....

On Kugutsumen, all 5 of his accounts have been banned apparently....CCP apparently asked him to close his site to the public and new accounts

(copied what I posted on ScrapHeap)
So he hacks Goonswam (and got hired by LV. Sholdn't the person who hired him be banned too?) and it's not a problem. It's only a problem when he hacks BoB (and providees enough evidence to have CCP launch an invistagtion when otherwise there is no way it would ever have been invistaged). If CCP were serious about this they would and should have banned him a long time ago. They did not.

Banning him for out of game activates is bad. EQ did it when they were top dog (when someone wrote a fiction rape story) and it was wrong then and this is wrong now.

Now, if he was banned for IN GAME activities, fine. CCP would have evidence they can view, and reach a considered judgment.

Now, here's how you destory a corp: write something up on a 3rd party messageboard/blog and say you're actually a BoB/D2/Goonswarm/lV director. Ban hammer hits that innocent person, as CCP wouldn't have any direct evidence would CCP have it wasn't them, just thier "own" admission. If CCP dosn't ban the victom, cry double standards.

And if you want to start banning people for "hacking" they can start with SpiralJunky, who it could be claimed "hacked" the ACEN fourms to get a post on Cyvok's resignation. There's as much evidence *avilable* to CCP there that they would have that Krug hacked BoB's fourms (Hm, mabye BoB provided the evidence to CCP to show Krug was hacking them).

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Reply #65 on: February 06, 2007, 10:24:42 PM

There's a new post in the forums about this from Kieron.  He says that the devs named have had their characters removed, and it's somewhat vague if any more action is going to be taken. 

Based on the first two pages of replies, I'd suggest looking now before it all gets cleaned and locked.  Poor Kieron... not a great time to be a community rep for CCP evil
Fordel
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Reply #66 on: February 06, 2007, 11:27:51 PM

Is this: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=471868 the thread?


That non-answer from CCP is very lame. Now it makes me think shit really did go bad somewhere, because if nothing happened, the first thing that would've been posted would be "Absolutely no BPO's or GM powers were abused etc...". The only sentiment I get from that post from Kieron is "man, we are bummed we got found out  :-("

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #67 on: February 07, 2007, 12:26:28 AM

Yeah pretty weak response, we're supposed to have faith in these old "stricter monitoring procedures" when it took a whistleblower to out this shitstorm anyway.  I note the only thing they really acknowledged was developer characters were compromised.  That's something most will blame on the hacker anyway even though if Kugutsumen is to be believed a developer continued to play his character long after BoB knew his identity.  I think they took the path of least resistance which is disappointing though not unexpected.
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Reply #68 on: February 07, 2007, 12:52:05 AM


Frankly, if even one of those allegations is true, the CCP employee involved must lose his job for EVE to retain any credibility at all. Instead, as I've been watching the thread posts criticizing CCP for apparent corruption are being completely deleted. I'm probably going to just cancel my account. Even though I never had plans to do much more than mine and rat here and there, why the fuck even bother? Why would I pay money to support a bunch of twats who are burning their credibility to protect the ability to spawn expensive toys and outright power for the richest and largest corp in their game?

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Reply #69 on: February 07, 2007, 01:49:17 AM

Frankly, if even one of those allegations is true, the CCP employee involved must lose his job for EVE to retain any credibility at all. Instead, as I've been watching the thread posts criticizing CCP for apparent corruption are being completely deleted. I'm probably going to just cancel my account.

Yep, I've cancelled both of mine.  I was hoping I could restore them if CCP handled this openly and aggressively (removal of the free mothership BoB got last year when they were given advance warning of the rules of an in-game event in order to prepare by one of their dev members would have been a minimum).  But nope, so buh-bye.  I never did a forum-drama-leaving-post before, so I'm secretly delighted to get to flounce.

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