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f13.net General Forums => Eve Online => Topic started by: Comstar on January 31, 2007, 02:09:42 AM



Title: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Comstar on January 31, 2007, 02:09:42 AM
The original threads were locked, but after a Goonfleet uprising, one was opened here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=468189).

Bascialy Kugutsumen (eve spy/hacker) has uncovrered evidence that BoB had 1-2 or more CCP devs (not just GMs) in thier allience (one was a cap ship fleet commander, one donated all his tech 2 BPOs) and BoB knew it.

This post on Scrapheap Challange (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=2994) explains it. The whole story is on Kugutsumen's blog (http://www.kugutsumen.com/). BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT HIS BLOG: do not register on it, because he will use it to hack into your fourms/account/eve account/computer/ebay account whatever.  For those worried about it, the scrapheap challange thread mostly has the story (not the later parts, where you discover that BoB knew about a CCP roleplaying event in 2005(?), or where Kugustumen tries to have himeself bribed by SirMolle for the cost of a Mothership or he'll keep posting. He's pure slime, and admits it happily (Kugustumen I mean, Molle may be slime but dosn't admit to it).

Only thing this scandel is missing is sex, and it would have the trifecta.

Edit by Trippy: fixed title


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Trippy on January 31, 2007, 02:20:40 AM
If Kugustsumen is evil why should people believe what he says about BoB and CCP?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Raging Turtle on January 31, 2007, 03:25:51 AM
Post in alliances says Eve staff is investigating. 

Why the hell am I up at 3:30?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: 5150 on January 31, 2007, 07:34:07 AM
Lol, coming hot on the heels of that Eve-TV guy who was in BOB/ASCN scandel where he accidentally used his Eve-TV account to post Cyvoks 'I'm leaving ASCN' post and then tried to cover it up and change it to his BOB account



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on January 31, 2007, 08:40:11 AM
Been in a guild with possibly a WoW dev or GM, sometimes petitions would get resolved way fast (like, 5 min response time for resolving an Onyxia-bugged-loot issue), but otherwise I didn't see anything suspicious (not that I would be able to).  Devs play their own games, nothing new, and no they don't always follow their behavior procedures to the letter.  Who cares.

Take the devs and the BPO's away from BoB, will it diminish their power and influence in any way?  Not really.  The little guy who just joined the game still has no chance to ever get to the level of gameplay that these guys operate at.

Some people will lose their jobs, some will be banned for misconduct and/or for creating drama instead of quietly petitioning, and that'll be that.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on January 31, 2007, 08:51:43 AM
Is there any evidence of actual misconduct, or are people arguing that devs shouldn't  play their own game?

(Sorry, not going to log onto a web site where the owner attempts to hack visitors to get information, which, by definition, would be from an untrustworthy source.)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on January 31, 2007, 09:01:45 AM
From what I've been reading on the Scrapheap site linked above, it's "devs shouldn't play their own game" with accusations of "how did they get those BPO's, the lottery must have been hacked" and "why is he urging people to visit the official CCP jobs listing page and/or apply for jobs at CCP?"

From what I understand, most devs have rules that allow them to play the game, but they must not reveal that they are devs.  I guess the policy states that "you must lie about what your job is" but doesn't cover casually mentioning that you're from Iceland (which is a dead giveaway).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on January 31, 2007, 09:12:58 AM
Been in a guild with possibly a WoW dev or GM, sometimes petitions would get resolved way fast (like, 5 min response time for resolving an Onyxia-bugged-loot issue), but otherwise I didn't see anything suspicious (not that I would be able to).  Devs play their own games, nothing new, and no they don't always follow their behavior procedures to the letter.  Who cares.

Take the devs and the BPO's away from BoB, will it diminish their power and influence in any way?  Not really.  The little guy who just joined the game still has no chance to ever get to the level of gameplay that these guys operate at.

Some people will lose their jobs, some will be banned for misconduct and/or for creating drama instead of quietly petitioning, and that'll be that.

The little guy might well ask what's the point of playing a highly competitive game like Eve at all if the big dogs get special favours and insider tips.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on January 31, 2007, 09:34:09 AM
The little guy might well ask what's the point of playing a highly competitive game like Eve at all if the big dogs get special favours and insider tips.

That's my take.  I'm pretty disappointed in the kind of culture this points up, both in CCP and in the gameplay that results.  Close reading of the timeline of those posts suggests, after all, that CCP became aware of malfeasance in July last year, and that three devs in RKK/BoB were known to at least 2 or possibly 3 higher-up guild members on a nod-and-a-wink basis.

It makes me look at some of the emergent gameplay in a rather different light, and I'm considering my accounts.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on January 31, 2007, 09:56:45 AM
How do devs fill the eternal demand (and need) that play their own game, yet avoid this sort of controversy?  Seems like an inevitable double bind.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on January 31, 2007, 10:36:20 AM
Eh, you might be right.  I was just looking at it from the point of view that "of course the top dog will get special treatment" and the issue for me is more of whehter CCP helped them to get to the top, which I don't think happened.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Endie on January 31, 2007, 10:47:41 AM
How do devs fill the eternal demand (and need) that play their own game, yet avoid this sort of controversy?  Seems like an inevitable double bind.

Yep, they should play the game, but one of the offending devs in particular was clearly playing on his role (as well as giving a guild leader the inside track on a CCP job application, and notifying of major gameplay-balance issues months in advance?!?).  And 9 million skill points, almost all in PvP stuff doesn't get you 6 or 7 of the more valuable Tech2 BPOs (alts and specialities are listed in a later post, so he didn't get them on the lottery himself).  Nor does hiding them in a corp hanger off-character when under suspicion look good.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on January 31, 2007, 01:09:28 PM
Eh, you might be right.  I was just looking at it from the point of view that "of course the top dog will get special treatment" and the issue for me is more of whehter CCP helped them to get to the top, which I don't think happened.
It doesn't matter now, though:
Whenever BoB wins battles, it's going to be because they have CCP devs fixing things for them.
Whenever BoB loses battles, it's going to be because they cannot win a fair fight (i.e. without CCP fixing things for them).

Catch-22.  :rock_hard:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on January 31, 2007, 01:11:17 PM
Man I don't know.

On one hand a dev should definitely play their own game. If they don't, they shouldn't be working on it. It's as simple as that. Fuck me, they should even get better treatment. A bonus here and there. What do I care if the Sabre I got comes from a BPO that a dev added to himself, so he wouldn't have to grind money? His game, in my eyes he's allowed to do that. I play the game he made, hell, I love the game he made.

However, there's another thing - if he's a dev, chances are he's playing since 2003. And he knows a lot more about the game than you and me. Of course he will be rich and powerful. Wouldn't you be? I know a bunch of guys that started in 2003 - all of them have tens of billions in assets. ALL.

What's on the other side? Well there's only one question - just how much did he help BoB?

It doesn't really matter at this point tbh. Last time this piece of shit Kugutsumen stirred trouble, a dev came out and tried to make people to stop investigating into possible devs. He explained exactly what the procedure is - if a dev is found out, he gets to keep his character. The character is renamed, a fake employment history is made up and he's forbidden to contact any of the guys he kept in touch with while playing the game. Or he loses his job. It doesn't matter if they find these guys guilty or innocent - for all intents and purposes their characters are deleted and their time in EVE is over. Would you come back to a game after playing it 4 years to go back to square one? I doubt it. And I believe the game loses from that - now you have a guy doing his job, instead of a guy living his dream.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on January 31, 2007, 01:14:22 PM
It doesn't matter now, though:
Whenever BoB wins battles, it's going to be because they have CCP devs fixing things for them.
Whenever BoB loses battles, it's going to be because they cannot win a fair fight (i.e. without CCP fixing things for them).

Yeah and that sucks. I don't get the BoB hate. Seriously I don't. They're acting like a bunch of arrogant assholes, but isn't that by design? Maybe I simpatize with them because I've been in a similar position. The scale was infinitely smaller, but the reactions were the same.

edit: english is hard :(


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: JoeTF on January 31, 2007, 04:03:25 PM
BoB is the new CA.
Back in old days virtually everyone in EVE hated biggest pvp entity called Curse Alliance. Well, not hated but considered them to be "ebil pirates" and thus prime target of every self-righteous newbie PVPer.
CA dissolved and now BOB have taken the place of universal target. Except that old CA was full silly 'pvp for lyfe' bravado and BOB finally learned concepts of strategic alliances, pet corps, spying and started actually wining.
Which is where the hate comes from - BOB is not only most excellent PvP alliance, but also the only alliance that never loses. They simply play to win.

My take on whole situation - it has been widely known that devs play EVE since beta times. ONly issue would be whether they abused their powers to help BOB, but there isn't a single shred of proof towards that. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tazelbain on January 31, 2007, 04:07:09 PM
> but there isn't a single shred of proof towards that.
How could there ever be proof?  Only CCP has the ability to find prove.  Maybe.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: ajax34i on January 31, 2007, 04:42:12 PM
[I don't get the BoB hate. Seriously I don't.

It's the same as the FOH hate of EQ days, and more recently in WoW, the hatred towards the top guild on each server, and the forum drama that goes with it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on January 31, 2007, 06:37:29 PM
It's kinda like if you were playing a football game, and the opposing teams coach was also a referee.

I'm sure there isn't any kind of bias there at all!



Should the dev's play the game? Yes. Should they influence the game? No. EVE is the kinda game where even the slightest edge can pull you ahead of the competition... having inside info and/or resources available to one power in EVE but not the others? That just fucks over the integrity of the entire game. One giant snowball going downhill effect.


Of course, there is a strong possibility this is all 100% bullshit and none of it's true :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on January 31, 2007, 06:49:07 PM
A competent player can't play a high end PvP game without influencing the game.  That is what is good about PvP play.  Hopefully a dev would be competent at their own game.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Comstar on January 31, 2007, 07:44:23 PM
Yes, but being a BoB Fleet commander (and not just a fleet, thier capatil fleet) influnces the game more than is needed. As does donating a so called "random" lottery's worth of tech 2 BPO's. Or letting BoB *know* they were devs.

There is playing the game to observe how it works, and then there is playing the game to influence how it works.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Raging Turtle on January 31, 2007, 07:49:58 PM
Yes, but being a BoB Fleet commander (and not just a fleet, thier capatil fleet) influnces the game more than is needed. As does donating a so called "random" lottery's worth of tech 2 BPO's. Or letting BoB *know* they were devs.

There is playing the game to observe how it works, and then there is playing the game to influence how it works.

If all that's true... damn.  I hated BoB before, but I hated them like most people hate the Yankees.  Now I'm just disgusted. 

If the dev really was that high up in BoB, then there was leadership that knew they were getting an unfair advantage.  I'm hoping this whole thing isn't true for the sake of the game, but there HAS to be more than a few big-name bans if this stuff is accurate.  Otherwise, fuck CCP, I'm happy to take my money elsewhere.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on January 31, 2007, 08:07:52 PM
Yes, but being a BoB Fleet commander (and not just a fleet, thier capatil fleet) influnces the game more than is needed. As does donating a so called "random" lottery's worth of tech 2 BPO's. Or letting BoB *know* they were devs.

There is playing the game to observe how it works, and then there is playing the game to influence how it works.

If all that's true... damn.  I hated BoB before, but I hated them like most people hate the Yankees.  Now I'm just disgusted. 

If the dev really was that high up in BoB, then there was leadership that knew they were getting an unfair advantage.  I'm hoping this whole thing isn't true for the sake of the game, but there HAS to be more than a few big-name bans if this stuff is accurate.  Otherwise, fuck CCP, I'm happy to take my money elsewhere.


The sad reality of this is *ALL* MMOs are like this, Dev's/GM's always have there own pet projects on the side, there is always some kind of bias. It's usually very subtle though, much more subtle then most would think would even matter (and often it doesn't matter "Woo, I haxxor'd myself a blue hat!")

EVE is unusual in that there is only ONE shared space and this space is absolutely cut throat and merciless. IF (big if) BoB really did get the kind of advantage that is being brought up in the accusations, literal thousands of players on the receiving end of BoB now have a legitimate beef and the hundreds IN BoB themselves have a beef.

If the stuff being tossed around IS true, it really could send EVE and CCP into a deathspiral.

I'm still leaning slightly towards 100% utter bullshit myself, but who knows! :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on January 31, 2007, 09:26:02 PM
Nah, there won't be a deathspiral.  The whole deal will be quietly buried, and these are EVE fans we're talking about, if they haven't quit the game because of the bugs, downtime, nerfs, griefing, and boredom, they won't quit over this.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Strazos on January 31, 2007, 09:50:09 PM
So so so so Scandelous. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hjV9pMpCn3s) Only slightly on-topic.  :wink:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on February 01, 2007, 03:36:56 AM
Nah, there won't be a deathspiral.  The whole deal will be quietly buried, and these are EVE fans we're talking about, if they haven't quit the game because of the bugs, downtime, nerfs, griefing, and boredom, they won't quit over this.

Actually, I just did.  Both accounts.  If they deal with it well then I'm sure I'll be back at some future point, since I was really enjoying the game.  But no matter how small and insignificant a message it was to send CCP over this, it was the only one available to me.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: squirrel on February 01, 2007, 04:26:20 AM
Meh, I don't know. As someone who has played EVE (and SB and DAoC) and tried to be somewhat competitive I can understand why this would cause significant raised eyebrows. By the same token, we WANT dev's to play their games and to do so seriously. How many times have you thought "There's no way anyone who works on this game has had to do this...it's retarded"?

However being in BoB is at the least a error in judgment. Is BoB filled with evil baby eaters? Nah. But they are powerful and relatively dominant in a PvP focused game that has a single persistent world. Given that, any CCP employee should steer clear of associating with them. I would think that dev's/insiders would learn more and find a greater challenge in playing the underdog.

Hopefully it's more bark than bite, I'd hate to hear that BoB (or anyone else) was getting serious favoritism, EVE is too good for that.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Slayerik on February 01, 2007, 08:59:59 AM
BoB is the new CA.
Back in old days virtually everyone in EVE hated biggest pvp entity called Curse Alliance. Well, not hated but considered them to be "ebil pirates" and thus prime target of every self-righteous newbie PVPer.
CA dissolved and now BOB have taken the place of universal target. Except that old CA was full silly 'pvp for lyfe' bravado and BOB finally learned concepts of strategic alliances, pet corps, spying and started actually wining.
Which is where the hate comes from - BOB is not only most excellent PvP alliance, but also the only alliance that never loses. They simply play to win.

My take on whole situation - it has been widely known that devs play EVE since beta times. ONly issue would be whether they abused their powers to help BOB, but there isn't a single shred of proof towards that. 


FYI, Curse is back. Too bad they pretty much suck and we make special trips to their space just to abuse them. ;)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: JoeTF on February 01, 2007, 09:49:33 AM
It's just the name, if you look by the roosters, most of CA is sitting in BOB/LV.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 01, 2007, 10:22:56 AM
Nah, there won't be a deathspiral.  The whole deal will be quietly buried, and these are EVE fans we're talking about, if they haven't quit the game because of the bugs, downtime, nerfs, griefing, and boredom, they won't quit over this.

Actually, I just did.  Both accounts.  If they deal with it well then I'm sure I'll be back at some future point, since I was really enjoying the game.  But no matter how small and insignificant a message it was to send CCP over this, it was the only one available to me.

I'm out too unless this is resolved to my satisfaction.  For what it's worth that doesn't include devs admitting they've been helping BoB all along and rending of garments; but a transparent set of policies would be nice.  We pay for a sandbox where any players can change the game if they're organised and smart, but if some of the kiddies are getting a bigger shovel on the sly then what's the point.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Stephen Zepp on February 01, 2007, 10:38:01 AM
Just some food for thought--

I've always believed in player content, but I've also witnessed many times where player politics were handled on a knee-jerk reaction mechanism, instead of more "deep" reasons. I don't want to go into huge details, but in SB, I ran an entire nation based on a lore story to inject "logical" (or at least consistent) diplomacy into our server---do this, the Church (our nation) will support you. Do that, the Church will hunt you down.

People may not have liked the Church, but in retrospect a lot of people liked the fact that we existed--it added meaning to conflicts instead of simple random ganking. Many other servers tried to do that type of "meaningful pvp", and some succeedeed, and some failed.

What I garnered out of those 6+ months of "research" is that there is actually quite a strong benefit in the long run to a game's sustainability (given world changing capability of any form, based on player action) if there is controlled, planned "guidance" (read that as interation and leadership) from paid game "devs"--actually paid players, on staff--that directly interact with each shard/game world/whatever under a long term plan that is tailored for the dynamics of that server.

In other words, done right, I think that not only is the company playing their own game good, but in fact if done well adds quite a bit to the game's fun factor and long term viability.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 01, 2007, 11:01:11 AM
Judging by CCP's policies on posting or commenting on GM decisions and/or disciplinary action (such as bans), I doubt they'll post any details of whatever investigation they're doing.  So, even if they fire the culprits, remove the BPO's, and ban a bunch of the BoB leadership, we probably won't know.  They may or may not post some sort of official statement, I don't know.

So, I don't know if you'll be able to tell if they resolved it to your satisfaction, if they do anything.  I guess, watch for farewell statements from devs finding "better opportunities elsewhere" and posts by BoB insiders that some of their leaders are quitting the game because their wife/gf/SO wants them to play WoW or take better care of the kids or whatnot.

Stephen, the posts quoted seem to imply that the devs involved helped BoB to become a lot more powerful than otherwise possible; if this was an effort by the devs to steer the game, the only way I can interpret it is that they want the same situation that they have on the Chinese server:  one alliance conquering all space.  I am not sure if that's a desirable situation for the TQ shard.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Vedi on February 01, 2007, 11:46:59 AM
I find it odd that people believe developers play favorites with the guild or faction they are a part of. This seems to suggest that the developers care more about their faction/guild than the game as a whole - the game they work on all day! I am sure you can find some bad apples that somehow gets a power rush from manipulating in-game events, or are recently recruited players that hasn't adjusted to the developer viewpoint, but these are surely dealt with harshly. The real developers doesn't care about individual player factions, they care about how game systems work. They are not out to "win" their own game - that'd be trivial. They are after creating the infinite, interesting struggle. Helping out the big guy is counterproductive to that.

Comparing developers playing their game to football referees playing on one of the teams is a bad analogy. Think of it as the FIFA rules committee themselves playing football actively. They need to do that to understand the game. They'd not change the size of the goal just because the keeper on their team was bad.

I too think that having payed players (GMs) or Feature Characters or whatever SB wanted to call them, can be interesting. I suppose Eve is a game where that would be possible, since everyone is on the same server. However, I think you'd have to announce in advance that this is how you are going to work, or it'd just cause too much problems and paranoia with players wondering who are payed and who aren't.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 01, 2007, 12:17:38 PM
CCP has posted that they'll make an official announcement with the results of their investigation... whenever that ends. 

Vedi: That's exactly what we're talking about - a dev who has covertly been helping BoB, which CCP has stated WILL get you fired if caught.  This isn't a Feature Character - Eve has in-game events like that every so often and nobody complains (or cares too much) about those, because they don't impact 0.0 space - the one place where everything that happens, happens because of the hard work of corporations.  How would you feel if you and your corp/guild worked your asses off to accomplish something, and then had it taken away by someone with an unfair, out-of-game advantage?

This is far worse than a little help or favoritism in a game like WoW or something similar.  Nobody cares if someone else has a free +9 Whackafoozle of Smiting, because it doesn't affect your gameplay in any significant manner.  Oh no, lost in battlegrounds?  Play again!  You can't do that in Eve.  Whether or not I resubscribe after my current deal runs out will depend entirely on how they handle this case.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Vedi on February 01, 2007, 12:46:28 PM
CCP has posted that they'll make an official announcement with the results of their investigation... whenever that ends. 

Vedi: That's exactly what we're talking about - a dev who has covertly been helping BoB, which CCP has stated WILL get you fired if caught.

Yep, I agree, it is bad if this happened. We should realize, though, that CCP takes this very seriously, as any company making such a game would. The point is that quitting over these things, or demanding that developers should not play certain parts of the game is misguided, because it fails to appreciate the motives almost all developers have when playing the game. The few exceptions are just that - exceptions and bad apples, and should be dealt with by the company in the same way as other breaches of trust by an employee. And they are.

Obviously, it is bad for ASCN and other victims of BoB, if their victories were significantly affected by this. But who really believes that? The room for affecting big things like that should be small, simply because any significant contribution would be noticed easily by other devs or even players. If BoB managed to get some intel and even good T2 BPOs out of it, I doubt this in any way significantly altered the result of any conflict. It's not like they are starved for either.

Let it go, and let CCP deal with. It likely has some serious consequences for whomever did this, going much further than a couple of in-game blueprints.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 01, 2007, 12:53:51 PM
Eh. I find it hard to get all worked up over this. I sincerely doubt that there's institutional malfeasance over at CCP to the degree that they have an actual management directive, stated or otherwise, to support one alliance via cheating. CCP is over 700 people at this point; I find it much easier to believe that a bad apple or two abused GM or administrative powers to give his characters advantages which then were passed on to his corpmates.

That his corpmates happened to be RKK/BoB in this case is just icing on the internet-shitstorm cake.

Oveur and company aren't stupid enough to not let that sort of public flaunting of abuse go; they know that it'd hurt the 0.0 game, which is quite obviously their favorite - they wouldn't keep pumping out toys for 0.0 folks otherwise, and they've publicly stated that getting people to participate in the 0.0 "endgame" is their goal.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Miasma on February 01, 2007, 12:55:20 PM
I tried to read those threads, and this one, but still can't understand what the dev and BoB are being accused of.  Maybe it's because I don't know what a BPO is.  So what is this about in laymen's terms?  Did he spawn stuff for them, generate money out of nowhere, tell them where the best mining was or created better opportunities in their territory?  And they keep saying RKK, who are they to BoB?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 01, 2007, 01:01:18 PM
Perhaps I am a little more self-righteous than I should be - probably just rationalizing a reason to quit since I'm getting kind of bored with the game after a year  :-D

Still love the follow the crazy 0.0 stories...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 01, 2007, 01:01:43 PM
BPO's are blueprints from which you can make ships.  BoB is a player alliance, currently arguably the biggest/most successful, RKK (Reikoku) is an old player corporation (the equivalent of a guild) that generally has old-timers in it, and the accusations are that a CCP dev has joined this player corporation and revealed that he was a dev, then proceeded to give them (unspecified) advantages in combat by directing their fleets (supposedly using dev powers to gain intel about enemy movements), and also gave them some of the rare and very valuable blueprints (blueprints which would otherwise take billions of in-game cash or years of grinding and a lot of luck to get).

EDIT:  Keeping in mind that BoB, as a large alliance of guilds, does have access to billions of in-game cash, has many rare BPO's, and with the sizes of fleets they have and their Ventrilo organization, are arguably already good at PVP regardless of the actions of the dev, my take is that the whole argument is one of principle, and of CCP devs having to maintain a sense of impartiality in their game, more than about the actual impact that the dev had.  The person(s) who posted the "evidence" however want as much publicity as possible, and as big an outcry as possible, to result from this.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: foodini on February 01, 2007, 03:25:30 PM
# psql -d eve_online
eve_online=# UPDATE player_stats SET lottery_points=999999999999999999999 WHERE player_id = me;

(wait for next lottery to fire)

eve_online=# UPDATE player_stats SET lottery_points=1 WHERE player_id = me;
eve_online=#\q

Yeah, you'd have to clear the database history of the change as well, but this illustrates a point.  _IF_ there were shenanigans, it is unlikely that the culprit will be caught.  If there are no retributions, there will always be doubt.  If you cannot play a game where this sort of thing can and _does_ happen, it's time to cancel your account and give up MMOs forever.

It's a painful reality, but when it comes right down to it, any dev who plays the game has an intimite understanding of its workings.  They don't go through growing pains - they're an expert player from day one.  They will succeed, they will be a major influence on the game. Again, if this is an issue for you, it's time to ebay off your character.

Sorry, that's my pessimistic rant for the day.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 01, 2007, 03:33:47 PM
Doubt this dev did that, the BPO seeding is a manual process, and they don't seed ships every time.  The question is, when was that specific blueprint created in the system, and did CCP seed that specific blueprint into the lottery at that specific time?  To me, it sounds like he was a minor/recently hired dev, and not someone with access to the lottery controls.  He may have been able to create his BPO out of thin air, but probably not to trick the lottery into giving him a legit BPO in such a way that the whole thing would appear legit upon closer inspection.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: MahrinSkel on February 01, 2007, 03:46:18 PM
From what I've been able to gather, the only open questions are if the BoB member/CCP employee that was forced to leave BoB came by his T2 BPO's legitimately (if he had just spawned them he would have been fired back then and the BPO's removed, so the question is if he used information only available to CCP to maximize his lottery payoffs) and if he or other CCP employees shared non-public information about upcoming changes that gave an advantage (for example, by letting them sell off BPO's before everyone knew the prices were going to tank).

Considering that everyone who meets a CCP employee in any context pumps them for information about what is coming (including me), the latter seems quite likely.  The former is a very fuzzy line, knowing that less popular agents are more likely to give you their BPO's wouldn't be across it, searching the database to find the least popular agents would be, knowing the *exact* types of agents that would give out BPO's of what kinds (it's not obvious in many cases) would be somewhere in the grey area.

"Caesar's wife should be above suspicion."  It's unreaonable and probably counterproductive to expect CCP employees to not play the game, and in Eve not joining an alliance is to cut yourself off from much of the most interesting parts.  Yet any success you have inside the game is potentially tainted, in appearance if not in fact, by the special access, you *can't* be just another player because you're going to know more.

I *really* doubt BoB is the only alliance with CCP devs in it, I'd be much more surprised if there was *any* major alliance without a couple of them.

--Dave

EDIT: Just to confuse things more, MMO developers tend to be better and more hardcore gamers than the average (points to his 10B isk net worth and alliance leadership position after 1.4 years of play).  Even *without* special knowledge, you could expect CCP developers playing the game since it's first playable alpha to be a little bit towards the high end of the curve.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 01, 2007, 04:32:44 PM
Considering that everyone who meets a CCP employee in any context pumps them for information about what is coming (including me), the latter seems quite likely.

(http://www.f13.net/media/e3d2/IMG_1456.JPG)

Some of us just make jokes and buy drinks, you know... :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on February 01, 2007, 04:41:17 PM
OMG YORU TOUCHED OVEUR

CAN I HAVE YOUR BABIES YORU???


ps: serious offer. not joking.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: squirrel on February 01, 2007, 08:20:40 PM
Yoru - sorry no quoting but I'm on a mobile.

Anyway - you state CCP is over 700 people now. 700? or 70? I find 700 FTE's for them hard to believe. 1/700 is v different from 1/70.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: hal on February 01, 2007, 08:37:42 PM
Give it up CCP is Iceland. There one and the same now.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: squirrel on February 01, 2007, 08:43:18 PM
? Iceland has well over 700 people. There is not they're.
Your point is unclear and uninformative. :P


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 01, 2007, 08:58:35 PM
Yoru - sorry no quoting but I'm on a mobile.

Anyway - you state CCP is over 700 people now. 700? or 70? I find 700 FTE's for them hard to believe. 1/700 is v different from 1/70.

700. They have 20 programmers (as posted in the dev blog today). My numbers come from d4rkj3di's post in the CCP/WW (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8619.70) merger thread. Specifically:

I just got back from EVE Fanfest (space nerds!) and from what I can tell they are holding off on an WoD Online for now and focusing on more of the EVE Offline. So, EVE Tabletop RPG, EVE Boardgame, EVE Graphic Novels and more CCG stuff.  CCP is almost 750 guys and a crate of vodka, when at this time last year there were 55. When asked about the nature of the deal, the CCP CEO joked that he was wearing a skirt and that this was almost like a marriage, and anyone who has been married knows who is in charge.

Emphasis mine.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: squirrel on February 01, 2007, 09:14:15 PM
Hrm yeah I realize they grew through that merger but that's substabtial and not organic. Irrelevant to the topic at hand but having been through M&A's several times (last one was 2500 people to 7500 and 2+ billion revenue) I would suggest that the company is still pretty divided along pre-merger lines and that the actual EVE   CCP number is much closer to 70..


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 01, 2007, 09:25:15 PM
Hrm yeah I realize they grew through that merger but that's substabtial and not organic. Irrelevant to the topic at hand but having been through M&A's several times (last one was 2500 people to 7500 and 2+ billion revenue) I would suggest that the company is still pretty divided along pre-merger lines and that the actual EVE   CCP number is much closer to 70..

Quite possible, but none of us actually know. CCP busted the 100k subscriber cap in that timeframe as well, and that number may also reflect the acquisition of a larger CSR staff. There's also the Serenity (Shanghai) office and server farm (London) office, in addition to the CCPHQ (Reykjavik) and former-White-Wolf (Atlanta) offices. A likely number would not be hard to derive if we knew what White Wolf's size was in '06.

In any case, this little event hasn't really impacted my fun at all, so I'll keep happily sending bucks to the North Atlantic.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: TripleDES on February 02, 2007, 03:41:29 PM
When it came to forum war, BoB always got it their way, as in thread closures and post edits, while other big alliances (i.e. mine, Goonfleet), get shafted on sight, as soon BoB gets wind of it. If priviledged folks did indeed play with them, then impartiality my ass.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Trippy on February 02, 2007, 07:06:35 PM
When it came to forum war, BoB always got it their way, as in thread closures and post edits, while other big alliances (i.e. mine, Goonfleet), get shafted on sight, as soon BoB gets wind of it. If priviledged folks did indeed play with them, then impartiality my ass.
Reminds me of the brouhaha with GFazier using his influence to get posts deleted on the WoW forum.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Toast on February 04, 2007, 02:09:30 AM
The Devs were not simply playing the game. They were bandwagonning onto a powerful pvp force and making it unstoppable with their intervention. My only guess is that a negligent lack of controls allowed devs into a conflict of interest situation where they were allowed to indulge their own uber guild/powergaming egos at the expense of un-assisted alliances like ASCN.

This goes a hell of a lot deeper than just Devs playing. The corruption is pretty disgusting, especially in a zero-sum, sandbox game.

5 developer members in RKK alone.Other devs could be present in other BoB corps.

Evidence of one T2 lottery rigging of 8 BPO's given over to RKK/BOB by a dev lacking enough skill points to earn them legitimately. This is one single player caught. There is no way to know how many other BPOs have been passed to them.

Insider tips given to BoB fleets regarding minimizing lag and logging back in faster than opponents in fleet battles. BoB thus has an uncanny ability to win fleet battles with numbers that are too good.

Advance warning given regarding server events with significant rewards. BoB director chatter indicates that secret infos are regularly passed to them via e-mail contact with CCP devs.

Advance warning given on item nerfs/boosts allowing massively profitable market arbitrage.

Advance warning given on upcoming changes to complex game mechanics and new skill introduction allowing BoB pilots to have pre-requisite skills trained in advance.

Seemingly preferential treatment given to BoB in moderation of official forums. Policies regarding things like posting of internal chat from other forums are suddenly changed when BoB posts show up.

Other BoB malfeasance:
Buying and selling of accounts for real cash (witnessed by Devs based on their membership).

Locking down access of 10/10 complexes such that slave corps are not allowed. However, there is evidence that access was sold to a known Ebay isk farming corp for a huge kickback.

Widespread adoption and advocacy of 'metagaming', i.e. infiltrating and leaking information from private forums and teamspeak servers. But, apparently, Kugutsumen gave them too much of their own medicine.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Furiously on February 05, 2007, 03:43:43 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have bought those 2 timecards....


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 05, 2007, 04:51:36 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have bought those 2 timecards....
I wouldn't worry about it. Fucking forum drama is forum drama. EVE's forum drama is just more fucking political. :)

It's really not a big deal, but it's causing the usual suspects the usual hissy fits -- and giving a lot of people something to blame for their failures.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Sparky on February 05, 2007, 08:10:41 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have bought those 2 timecards....
I wouldn't worry about it. Fucking forum drama is forum drama. EVE's forum drama is just more fucking political. :)

It's really not a big deal, but it's causing the usual suspects the usual hissy fits -- and giving a lot of people something to blame for their failures.

Assuming that hacker didn't just make it all up we really don't know what sort of deal it is.  A friendly dev or even a vanilla GM could easily turn a war around or just about anything else.  48 hours after Goonfleet and RA destroyed 16 LV capital ships a corp within that alliance claimed most were reimbursed because it was laggy - phenomenally fast for petitions often take weeks.  Now I was in that fight and it wasn't particularly laggy for any battle that size so they're probably lying, but shit like this makes you wonder.  That's why I don't like their practice of assigning GMs to deal with specific locations.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Toast on February 05, 2007, 09:26:07 PM
The problem is that this is a single shard game. It's a zero sum game. Dev intervention affects a great many players because it so concentrated.

The devs would tend to congregate together, and why not pick the winning side?

How many devs you think were in ASCN? That's what I thought.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Vedi on February 05, 2007, 10:29:04 PM

I wouldn't worry about it. Fucking forum drama is forum drama.


(http://www.eve-tribune.com/2_5/GoonSwarmCCG_bob.jpg)(http://www.eve-tribune.com/2_5/GoonSwarmCCG_caod.jpg)

They are from  GoonSwarm via Eve Tribune, by the way. (http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_5&page=8)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Teleku on February 06, 2007, 02:40:44 AM
I havent been playing for awhile, so I got bored and looked at the latest alliance map: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/crii/Latest.jpg

Did BoB really beat the shit out of the other side that badly in the last war?  I know they`re easily the best corp out there, but yesh.

Be kind of cool if they conqured the whole galaxy though  :-P.  They could just change their name to The Empire.

And thats quite a comback by RA as well, considering the point they were at when I was playing.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on February 06, 2007, 02:54:56 AM
Did BoB really beat the shit out of the other side that badly in the last war?  I know they`re easily the best corp out there, but yesh.
Be kind of cool if they conqured the whole galaxy though  :-P.  They could just change their name to The Empire.

Be careful with statements like that. The BOB Hate will HAVE YOU :P

The TCG Cards are really cool. They're, of course, biased, but still fun :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Strazos on February 06, 2007, 02:59:06 AM
That map...what a fucking mess.


Also, what's up with the eastern portion of the map? Is that All generally-unclaimed 0.0 space?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on February 06, 2007, 03:02:58 AM
Also, what's up with the eastern portion of the map? Is that All generally-unclaimed 0.0 space?

Aye, those are the new regions. They only have drone NPCs (no bounty, no loot other than minerals) and have _NO_ conquarable or npc stations. You have to build an Outpost to use them properly.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: 5150 on February 06, 2007, 10:55:10 AM
Did BoB really beat the shit out of the other side that badly in the last war?  I know they`re easily the best corp out there, but yesh.

Be kind of cool if they conqured the whole galaxy though  :-P.  They could just change their name to The Empire.

Bear in mind that BOB claim more space than they can control - hence the use of 'slave' or 'pet' corps/alliances that BOB install in their outer regions who rule in their name and pay them some kind of tax

Interestingly Celestial Apocalypse IIRC illustrated during the BOB vs ASCN war that some slave entities arent up to the task of holding the region when BOB arent around to back them up leading to an influx of people to Fountain during the war and (I believe) BOB had to send a force in to 'clear it out' (which is technically impossible given its NPC stations, but you get the gist)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: MahrinSkel on February 06, 2007, 02:25:43 PM
BoB's structure is very fuedalistic.  Inside of BoB controlled space, you have three broad categories of players:

1) BoB corps and their immediate affilliates (industrial alt corps, "vacation" corps, etc.).  The 4 BoB corps are unusually large (400+ people each) and each acts as an independant military force.  In low-grade conflict, BoB corps move as whole units to various hot-spots and operate independantly.  In all-out war, BoB normally operates in a two forward, one reserve, and one offline mode, with two corps conducting active offensive operations against the enemy, one jumping from hot-spot to hot-spot, mostly defensively, and one out of the conflict and doing whatever the individuals in it do to make money (the reserve also does this when it can).

2) "Police force" alliances.  MC, Xelas, FIX, and now a few more that are being installed in the former ASCN regions.  Each of these qualify as a minor power in their own right, and they operate 99.9% independantly, with their own foreign policy, their own stations, and their own internal structure.  They are what outside alliances normally refer to as "pets".  They pay no tribute or rent, other than fees for use of the facilities in BoB owned stations.  Each also has some number of constellations in which they have total sovereignty and control.  If BoB is the empire, these are local feudal lords.

3) "Renters".  Corps of all sizes and small alliances not strong enough to take on full-time defense duties.  They pay for access to 0.0, which can range from having mining/ratting rights in an entire region, to exclusives for a single system, complex, or constellation.  These are the yeoman and serfs.

The important thing to remember is that the relationship between BoB and each of the "Police" alliances is unique, and evolving.  What applies to Xelas or MC does not neccessarily apply to FIX, and so on.  FIX and MC have a much closer relationship to each other than either has to Xelas, but this has little to do with the relationship between both and BoB.  In fact, the relationship between FIX and a couple of the new ASCN replacements is outright hostile, but as we have little contact with them that doesn't matter much.

Although the police alliances can call on BoB for reinforcements, they are extremely reluctant to do so, as needing help weaknes their negotiating position with BoB.  In the last 7-8 months, BoB has had to deploy the reserve corp to Querious exactly twice, both for only a single battle.

Each of the entities operating inside of BoB space has independant goals, which they are pursuing in ways that are mutually beneficial for them and BoB.  For the renters, it's a straight cash arrangement, they can make enough money in 0.0 to pay BoB and still do far better than they could in Empire.  For the police forces, it gets complicated, but for the most part they do what they would have done anyway, defend their chunk of 0.0 while building towards their own long-term goals, and BoB renters are shielded behind that defense.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Comstar on February 06, 2007, 10:15:20 PM
The banstick has been used and hits....

On Kugutsumen, all 5 of his accounts have been banned apparently....CCP apparently asked him to close his site to the public and new accounts (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=3107&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

(copied what I posted on ScrapHeap)
So he hacks Goonswam (and got hired by LV. Sholdn't the person who hired him be banned too?) and it's not a problem. It's only a problem when he hacks BoB (and providees enough evidence to have CCP launch an invistagtion when otherwise there is no way it would ever have been invistaged). If CCP were serious about this they would and should have banned him a long time ago. They did not.

Banning him for out of game activates is bad. EQ did it when they were top dog (when someone wrote a fiction rape story) and it was wrong then and this is wrong now.

Now, if he was banned for IN GAME activities, fine. CCP would have evidence they can view, and reach a considered judgment.

Now, here's how you destory a corp: write something up on a 3rd party messageboard/blog and say you're actually a BoB/D2/Goonswarm/lV director. Ban hammer hits that innocent person, as CCP wouldn't have any direct evidence would CCP have it wasn't them, just thier "own" admission. If CCP dosn't ban the victom, cry double standards.

And if you want to start banning people for "hacking" they can start with SpiralJunky, who it could be claimed "hacked" the ACEN fourms to get a post on Cyvok's resignation. There's as much evidence *avilable* to CCP there that they would have that Krug hacked BoB's fourms (Hm, mabye BoB provided the evidence to CCP to show Krug was hacking them).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 07, 2007, 12:24:42 AM
There's a new post in the forums about this from Kieron.  He says that the devs named have had their characters removed, and it's somewhat vague if any more action is going to be taken. 

Based on the first two pages of replies, I'd suggest looking now before it all gets cleaned and locked.  Poor Kieron... not a great time to be a community rep for CCP :evil:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 07, 2007, 01:27:51 AM
Is this: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=471868 the thread?


That non-answer from CCP is very lame. Now it makes me think shit really did go bad somewhere, because if nothing happened, the first thing that would've been posted would be "Absolutely no BPO's or GM powers were abused etc...". The only sentiment I get from that post from Kieron is "man, we are bummed we got found out  :-("


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 07, 2007, 02:26:28 AM
Yeah pretty weak response, we're supposed to have faith in these old "stricter monitoring procedures" when it took a whistleblower to out this shitstorm anyway.  I note the only thing they really acknowledged was developer characters were compromised.  That's something most will blame on the hacker anyway even though if Kugutsumen is to be believed a developer continued to play his character long after BoB knew his identity.  I think they took the path of least resistance which is disappointing though not unexpected.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: angry.bob on February 07, 2007, 02:52:05 AM
Is this: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=471868 the thread?

Frankly, if even one of those allegations is true, the CCP employee involved must lose his job for EVE to retain any credibility at all. Instead, as I've been watching the thread posts criticizing CCP for apparent corruption are being completely deleted. I'm probably going to just cancel my account. Even though I never had plans to do much more than mine and rat here and there, why the fuck even bother? Why would I pay money to support a bunch of twats who are burning their credibility to protect the ability to spawn expensive toys and outright power for the richest and largest corp in their game?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Endie on February 07, 2007, 03:49:17 AM
Frankly, if even one of those allegations is true, the CCP employee involved must lose his job for EVE to retain any credibility at all. Instead, as I've been watching the thread posts criticizing CCP for apparent corruption are being completely deleted. I'm probably going to just cancel my account.

Yep, I've cancelled both of mine.  I was hoping I could restore them if CCP handled this openly and aggressively (removal of the free mothership BoB got last year when they were given advance warning of the rules of an in-game event in order to prepare by one of their dev members would have been a minimum).  But nope, so buh-bye.  I never did a forum-drama-leaving-post before, so I'm secretly delighted to get to flounce.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Strazos on February 07, 2007, 05:08:09 AM
I canceled my account as well. Unfortunately, I didn't catch it before it tapped my account for February. Oh well. Not saying I'll never come back, but I wasn't really playing much anyway.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 07, 2007, 05:14:20 AM
Not that anyone cares, but 3 cancelled here too (well strictly speaking one recurring subscription and two paid with timecards - but I let them know three were gone).  My brother was having problems accessing the account management page so maybe they're overloaded right now, heh.  I was kind of getting bored anyway so it's a good excuse to bail after two years and change.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 07, 2007, 06:37:28 AM
Man, I want to jump on the cancel bandwagon, but I haven't been subbed to the game in like half a year  :?

Wait, does this mean I'm a trend setter?  :-o


Probably not  :-(


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on February 07, 2007, 08:02:31 AM
yaaay! Go go overreaction :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Sparky on February 07, 2007, 08:52:20 AM
yaaay! Go go overreaction :)

Well I've bitched on the forums and cancelled my accounts but phase three requires a plane ticket to Iceland. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Der Helm on February 07, 2007, 11:05:37 AM
yaaay! Go go overreaction :)
My thoughts exactly ...  :heart:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: angry.bob on February 07, 2007, 12:41:19 PM
yaaay! Go go overreaction :)

Normally I would agree, but in this case you're wrong. If it were WoW, EQ2, whatever it what is alleged to have happened would be tacky - but not game breaking. But Eve is a zero-sum game on a single server. BoB (fucking whores who stole my guild abbreviation for their HBO miniseries pussy rubbing, may Allah curse them) owns about a third of all 0.0 space. They had a Dev organizing and running their capital fleet. A dev transferfed a dozen T2 BPO's to BoB. They got a mothership replaced due to "lag" with little/no wait. Getting facilities and selling them on ebay - I don't even know what the fuck is with that. Isn't that pretty much the same thing as just making a castle in UO and selling it on ebay? And the list of alleged abuses goes on. All that shit directly impacts everyone who plays EVE, the only question is by how much. All that real estate they own? No one else gets to own it. No one else can even use it except at BoB's pleasure. And if even some of those allegations are true, no one else ever gets to own it - or even play with it, ever, no matter what.

This is the exact equivalent of the old days of playing Trade Wars and the BBS admin giving himself a 3 deep, one way in home system and 50,000 fighters and mines at each hop. If the allegations are false, they need to be addressed specifically and said to be untrue. If any of them other than devs played with BoB as nothing but regular players without using any Dev or company resources are true, then the devs need to be fired and BoB needs to be disbanded and all their shit taken away. Anything less wrecks the entire player driven sandbox thing that CCP bases the game on. Instead, the community rep makes one post that says the Devs who's characters are known have lost those characters. That says fuck-all nothing and satisfies nobody.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on February 07, 2007, 12:48:10 PM
I'm waiting for the next Kugutsumen post, personally.
Good luck perma-banning someone whose day-job is dicking around with computers & networks from a game with 14-day free trials.  :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Slayerik on February 07, 2007, 02:38:51 PM
yaaay! Go go overreaction :)

Normally I would agree, but in this case you're wrong. If it were WoW, EQ2, whatever it what is alleged to have happened would be tacky - but not game breaking. But Eve is a zero-sum game on a single server. BoB (fucking whores who stole my guild abbreviation for their HBO miniseries pussy rubbing, may Allah curse them) owns about a third of all 0.0 space. They had a Dev organizing and running their capital fleet. A dev transferfed a dozen T2 BPO's to BoB. They got a mothership replaced due to "lag" with little/no wait. Getting facilities and selling them on ebay - I don't even know what the fuck is with that. Isn't that pretty much the same thing as just making a castle in UO and selling it on ebay? And the list of alleged abuses goes on. All that shit directly impacts everyone who plays EVE, the only question is by how much. All that real estate they own? No one else gets to own it. No one else can even use it except at BoB's pleasure. And if even some of those allegations are true, no one else ever gets to own it - or even play with it, ever, no matter what.

This is the exact equivalent of the old days of playing Trade Wars and the BBS admin giving himself a 3 deep, one way in home system and 50,000 fighters and mines at each hop. If the allegations are false, they need to be addressed specifically and said to be untrue. If any of them other than devs played with BoB as nothing but regular players without using any Dev or company resources are true, then the devs need to be fired and BoB needs to be disbanded and all their shit taken away. Anything less wrecks the entire player driven sandbox thing that CCP bases the game on. Instead, the community rep makes one post that says the Devs who's characters are known have lost those characters. That says fuck-all nothing and satisfies nobody.

I think Bob is right on here. Its basically bullshit. Will I quit? Probably not but I am a glutton for punishment.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Soln on February 07, 2007, 03:52:42 PM
my take on the whole thing is that the CCP people involved used their free time to help the game, in their minds.  By giving stuff to BoB and giving the game a real enemy, they spurred the growth of other corps.

In other words, they used their spare time to assist in game design and world development. Clearly, this is stupid and shouldn’t be allowed. Particularly in an open PvP sandboxy game.   But I find Eve pretty sleazy and CCP pretty culpable in a lot of these things.  So I'm not surprised.  And my sub ran out end of Nov. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: angry.bob on February 07, 2007, 03:56:55 PM
I think the way they're (not) handling this is really going to hurt them, and badly. It's starting to show up on mainstream sites like Blues and Shack now. For all the growth it's had, EVE is still pretty niche and it wouldn't suprise me if this ends up costing them a sizeable chunk of their players as well as quite a few future subs.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on February 07, 2007, 04:55:55 PM
Kugutsemen's site went public again.
"For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind" (http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=138)
Quote
   
Default Suspected Devs In BoB
In addition to the previously disclosed devs... here are more suspects.
The most suspect guy is RagnarH who left the exact same day I exposed the devs in RKK. What a coincidence!

Quote:
| Lyrics | Republic Military School - 2006.05.31 10:23:00

| Vegeta | TAOSP - 2007.01.10 01:21:00
Omniscient Order - 2006.04.22 07:53:00
The Wolves - 2006.03.24 01:07:00
Brutor tribe - 2006.02.12 21:58:00
Cult Of Cthulhu - 2005.06.20 21:45:00
Brutor tribe - 2005.06.20 21:42:00
[Closed] The Legitimate Businessmans Club - 2005.05.23 04:04:00

| Diamond_Dog | Brutor tribe - 2006.01.22 19:20:00
Murini Ice Syndicate - 2005.09.06 23:36:00
Brutor tribe - 2005.09.03 16:16:00
Reikoku - 2005.03.21 21:07:00
Brutor tribe - 2005.03.17 17:22:00
Fighters of Heineken - 2005.01.05 18:50:00

| Svabbzor | Reikoku - 2006.11.08 21:02:00
Random Execution Party - 2006.10.15 00:20:00
The Kru - 2005.12.08 20:38:00
[Closed] Snuff Syndicate - 2005.10.20 20:12:00

| Ben Hump | Reikoku - 2006.11.08 16:31:00
Random Execution Party - 2006.10.15 00:19:00
The Kru - 2005.12.08 20:38:00
[Closed] Snuff Syndicate - 2005.10.24 17:37:00

| Svavz | Reikoku - 2006.11.08 21:48:00
Random Execution Party - 2006.10.15 02:38:00
The Kru - 2006.09.05 16:37:00
Celtic industries - 2006.03.23 18:37:00
The Blackwater Brigade - 2006.03.19 12:48:00
BANK of HUZZAH FEDERATION - 2006.03.17 23:10:00

| RagnarH | Brutor tribe - 2007.01.31 18:23:00
Reikoku - 2006.11.20 23:44:00
Brutor tribe - 2006.11.13 23:11:00
Engage With Rage - 2006.10.30 23:03:00
Dark Reality - 2006.10.30 19:15:00
Engage With Rage - 2006.10.20 22:53:00
All these guys registered on RKK with icelandish email addresses.

Funny that RagnarH left on the 31st January 2007 after the Reikoku Makes Its Own Luck series.

Anonymous source contacted me and claims Oveur and Kieron are in the above list and that Vegeta (currently in TAOSP/BoD) is Lemonde.

Great plan, CCP. Great plan. :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Morat20 on February 07, 2007, 05:08:26 PM
Oh dear, where is my cancel button? I think CCP should be handling it a bit better, but frankly this Kugutsemen dude strikes me as an arrogant asshole.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Furiously on February 07, 2007, 05:08:45 PM
I used to be guilded with a developer at Mythic, our guild had transitioned from EQ and he had gotten a job at Mythic. I'd tell him to poke Lum for me whenever we grouped. Sorry about all those pokes Lum.

He didn't ever edit the database to give himself better armor or more money. He didn't share any secrets. He just played the game like we had since EQ. I don't recall if we asked him for secrets, or if we did, he just laughed at us. I never felt like "Boy, we have an advantage, we have a mesmer who is a dev." Neither side put the other in a position to ever be put in a questionable situation.

I'm guessing Mark Jacobs hires professionals or has talks occasionally about not going Stockholm.

If any of those BPO's were dev created instead of lotteried, I will feel a bit betrayed by CCP.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Morat20 on February 07, 2007, 05:14:19 PM
Not sure if this has been posted, don't think so: Latest from CCP (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=471868):
Quote
Our goal is to provide the best possible game, gaming experience and development process possible. In light of that, we would like to address the recent allegations of CCP employee misconduct. CCP has taken these charges very seriously and since they surfaced we have launched a thorough investigation consisting of an examination of character histories ranging back to their creation as well as into any connected characters owned by the developers involved. This examination was performed by the same internal division which is also tasked with standard periodic audits of all developer and volunteer accounts. Areas of investigation include, but are not limited to: messaging history, financial and transactional history, combat and corporation logs, item and cash transfers and IP logs.

As for the allegations themselves, they consist of two parts. The first part involved a case that happened seven months ago when a CCP employee’s identity became public knowledge within his corporation. Per company policy, the incident was investigated and actions taken where appropriate, including the removal of characters whose identities were compromised.

The second part of the accusations stem from a leak of information pertaining to an in-game event arc. Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.

In both cases, these accusations were recently brought forward when a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

Last summer, CCP implemented stricter monitoring procedures and audits on all CCP employees’ EVE accounts. We are confident that our rigid procedures and protocol will prevent any misconduct or, at least, allow us to quickly discover it, should such an unfortunate scenario arise.

As the community knows well, we at CCP enjoy not only playing EVE Online, but improving EVE and interacting with our playerbase. We feel EVE benefits from the developers playing EVE as any other members of the community do, and to impose artificial limitations -- such as no access to Tranquility or special flagging on a developer’s player character -- would greatly hinder the development of EVE.

CCP is very passionate about EVE Online and is committed to its continued growth. We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.
Seems fairly straightfoward -- they can track items, cash, the usual db changes and didn't find squat. They can't trace leaks of info as easily, so couldn't verify it or deny it -- which is a fairly honest statement. (More than one company would phrase it "We were unable to find any evidence to support the accusation).

Some cockmunch did out a lot of Devs, so they had to shuffle the characters and hide them -- killing in-game relationships. I suspect they'll be a lot of "You're a Dev!" accusations from certain cock-munches who think it's their claim to fame.

There. I've fucking sullied myself with forum drama. I need a bath.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Furiously on February 07, 2007, 05:19:02 PM
Quote
In both cases, these accusations were recently brought forward when a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

I'm not seeing where this is the player's fault...CCP has a policy....Consequences...Actions...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 07, 2007, 05:25:18 PM
Quote
In both cases, these accusations were recently brought forward when a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

I'm not seeing where this is the player's fault...CCP has a policy....Consequences...Actions...
If I understand correctly, he did it by tracing IP addresses off of a forum to CCP -- which means certain Devs were more than a bit stupid in posting to corp boards from work without taking a few precautions, but it's not the same as "Dude, I'm a Dev!" on corp-chat.

As for the T2 thing -- if they were spawned or the lottery was hacked, I'd count it highly likely that CCP would have been able to trace that. Their logging for that sort of thing is undoubtably comprehensive, and any GM/Dev tools that work on the live server undoubtable log everything you do.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on February 07, 2007, 05:26:59 PM
...apart from the minor detail that it was the dev who wrote most of the T2 lottery code that was handing out T2 BPOs to his corpmates in RKK/BoB.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 07, 2007, 05:39:18 PM
...apart from the minor detail that it was the dev who wrote most of the T2 lottery code who was handing out T2 BPOs to his corpmates in RKK/BoB.
Just because he wrote the T2 lottery code doesn't make him immune to DB auditing.

First, we can assume he didn't "poof" those T2 BPOs into existance. Spawning them outside the lottery system would have undoubtably been immediately traceable even with rudimentary auditing tools (and certainly by anyone willing to check back through the DB and trace the item history and regular log files).

So that leaves several options:

1) He rigged the T2 lottery code in some way. I sincerly doubt this -- first, it would have been caught in any kind of code inspection (and you can bet your ass it would have been looked at once the allegations came up, if not before).
2) He exploited some bug in the T2 lottery system -- once again, this would have come up in examination.
3) He knew the T2 lottery system well enough to maximize his chances of winning -- how to maximize his RPs prior to the lottery and got lucky. As a member of a 0.0 corp and a very long-time player, if he had any research alts or skills on his main, he would have had a lot of tickets. (I'd be surprised if there was much he knew that wasn't known by a lot of players. The mechanics of the lottery system are fairly simple).
4) He won some, bought some, collected them (I don't know if they were all new T2 BPOs or what) -- or any combination of them -- and then handed them out to the corp for manufacturing. He's undoubtably a rich player at this point, and cash can buy you a lot of things.

Outright spawning of the BPOs is a ludicrous notion -- it would have been clear in any audit. It's the easiest damn thing in the world to prevent. That leaves rigging the lottery code itself, a bug in the lottery code he exploited (both of which would have been unlikely in the first place and would have certainly been caught once people started digging). That leaves 3 and 4.

Auditing this sort of thing isn't hard -- it would be trivial to find the origins of each BPO that the Dev ever had in his possesion. If they all originated as "his winnings in the T2 lottery", a bit of simple math would determine if that was statistically likely or unlikely over the time frame in question. If other people won them, the same analysis could be done on them and log checks to determine if they were sold or given away.

That's sort of the point -- with access to CCP's database and the bare basics of the lottery system, it's only a few hours work to determine which BPOs he gave away, where they came from, and when. If he won 6 in a single lottery, then a quick check of his RP's prior to the lottery, the total number of RP's outstanding for those categories, and the number of BPO's seeded for that lottery, and determine whether he rigged it or not.

If he did, he'd be bounced -- unless he's an owner, which might make it difficult.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 07, 2007, 05:54:11 PM
I'd be frankly amazed if he spawned BPOs, that shit would be traced in a minute and this guy would be risking a well paying job rather than some crappy internship like the GM who spawned himself a Scorpion with the best mods in the game (incidentally he was caught and fired after a huge Eve-o shitstorm when the GM in question ran into a gatecamp, got popped then banned the guy who popped him - old scandal). 

He acquired those BPOs honestly most likely.  Now you can argue if a dev character who is effectively "banned" should be handing any out assets when a mere subscriber wouldn't have that luxury, but that's a different debate.  To my mind far more important than a few BPO, which in the grand scheme of things mean shit really, is the information about events and whatnot that were allegedly shared.  That info would be priceless and would've given BoB far more advantage than a bunch of mediocre blueprints.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Morat20 on February 07, 2007, 06:01:02 PM
I'd be frankly amazed if he spawned BPOs, that shit would be traced in a minute and this guy would be risking a well paying job rather than some crappy internship like the GM who spawned himself a Scorpion with the best mods in the game (incidentally he was caught and fired after a huge Eve-o shitstorm when the GM in question ran into a gatecamp, got popped then banned the guy who popped him - old scandal). 

He acquired those BPOs honestly most likely.  Now you can argue if a dev character who is effectively "banned" should be handing any out assets when a mere subscriber wouldn't have that luxury, but that's a different debate.  To my mind far more important than a few BPO, which in the grand scheme of things mean shit really, is the information about events and whatnot that were allegedly shared.  That info would be priceless and would've given BoB far more advantage than a bunch of mediocre blueprints.
I agree -- and at least CCP is being fairly honest with the "We have no way of denying or verifying whether it happened". They really don't, unless the guy confesses or he did it over chat and not voice.

I suspect their auditing will be tightened up again, and they'll probably work out some procedure to prevernt their IPs from being traced back to CCP -- like banning Devs from posting from work. (Half the players seem to live in Iceland, so....).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 07, 2007, 06:56:34 PM
Anonymous source contacted me and claims Oveur and Kieron are in the above list and that Vegeta (currently in TAOSP/BoD) is Lemonde.

The forums monkeys are going to go CRAZY if this turns out to be true.  (He's the lead dev for the entire game)

Oveur in Bob?  I'm not sure if I'd be surprised or not if that turns out to be true, but it sure as hell doesn't want to make me play  :-P


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: d4rkj3di on February 07, 2007, 08:20:48 PM
To be fair, it was LV that got the Hel by getting ISD leaked info on the event. Even after CCP acknowledged that there was indeed shennanigans involved with the pre-staging of materials, the Mothership that was awarded to the cheaters is still in the game, being flown. That is another sore spot that is being brought up in this latest shitstorm.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 07, 2007, 09:42:05 PM
Not gonna cancel cause of this, shrug, I'm a carebear in the noob corp, don't think I've been affected by BoB or any other alliance.  Gonna eventually cancel cause I'll get bored of it again, like the last two times.  Plus, not sure how much longer EVE's gonna be the focus of CCP; didn't they say they were going to develop that other MMO?  A year from now, who knows what we'll be playing.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 07, 2007, 09:54:08 PM
Plus, not sure how much longer EVE's gonna be the focus of CCP; didn't they say they were going to develop that other MMO?  A year from now, who knows what we'll be playing.

From statements, "WoD Online" is backburnered. The fruit of the WW acquisition is being poured into an Eve P&P RPG among other things.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on February 08, 2007, 02:53:40 AM
How do you not see that Kuguass is harming the game? Can you not look beyond your hate of BoB for a second?

Yes devs have player characters. Yes these player characters are very old and with shitload of skillpoints and experience in the game. Do you know where most of the 2003 players end up? That's right - in one of the corps in the Band of Brothers alliance. That is the reason they're the most dominant entity in the game. Do you think Oveur or any other lead dev would jeopardise his fucking life and his greatest piece of work so BoB Can have more space? That's beyond ridiculous.

You have the word of a fucking asshole (with no proof other than "there are devs in BoB, so it's obvious they helped them") against the word of the guys that made the game you love (or at least play). Who are you going to believe? This whole thread is really retarded (with several meaningful posts).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Velorath on February 08, 2007, 03:02:08 AM
How do you not see that Kuguass is harming the game? Can you not look beyond your hate of BoB for a second?

Yes devs have player characters. Yes these player characters are very old and with shitload of skillpoints and experience in the game. Do you know where most of the 2003 players end up? That's right - in one of the corps in the Band of Brothers alliance. That is the reason they're the most dominant entity in the game. Do you think Oveur or any other lead dev would jeopardise his fucking life and his greatest piece of work so BoB Can have more space? That's beyond ridiculous.

You have the word of a fucking asshole (with no proof other than "there are devs in BoB, so it's obvious they helped them") against the word of the guys that made the game you love (or at least play). Who are you going to believe? This whole thread is really retarded (with several meaningful posts).

So your point seems to be that people never do stupid shit that might cost them their jobs, and that everyone should be blindly loyal to the people who develop the games they like?  Not that I care one way or the other since I don't play EvE, but I'm not sure I'm getting your logic here.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on February 08, 2007, 03:13:42 AM
My point is that people don't do stupid shit that could cost them their life's work, dream, whatever you wish to call it. Have you seen Oveur or any other of the lead devs talk about the game? Thought so. I choose to trust them, over a piece of shit that is activly ruining the only game I really feel is getting somewhere. And by proxy ruining the sandbox/virtual world model as a whole. Imagine this gets blown up in the media and it most likely will. We'll be playing dikus for the rest of time.

This is not a fucking player run UO shard. It's a bussiness.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on February 08, 2007, 07:10:58 AM
My point is that people don't do stupid shit that could cost them their life's work, dream, whatever you wish to call it.
Such naivety is refreshing.

No, wait, that's not the word I was looking for. Foolish. Such naivety is foolish. There we go.

Quote
This is not a fucking player run UO shard. It's a bussiness.
Exactly. Therefore the devs need to act with some bloody professional decorum, instead of trying to whitewash the issue(s) away.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Miasma on February 08, 2007, 08:24:08 AM
Kill the messangers!  Bury those heads deeper in the sand, deeper I tell you!  People never bend the rules to help friends they have known for years, that's crazy talk.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: 5150 on February 08, 2007, 09:01:05 AM
Oveur could have killed this off very easily by publishing the full findings

The fact that he instead chose to publish some PR bullshit was stupid and its no surprise that people think that there was something going on, nothing has been done/will be done and the rot probably runs deeper than they originally thought

and I can't blame them

Don't blame the players blame Oveur for missing the opportunity


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Soln on February 08, 2007, 10:19:31 AM
"we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations."


ya, that's says nothing.  All it leaves is the lingering doubt that something happened.  And the player base is left to speculate and fight over to what degree things did happen.  Terrible community.  Glad I'm out of it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Merusk on February 08, 2007, 10:36:31 AM
My point is that people don't do stupid shit that could cost them their life's work, dream, whatever you wish to call it.
Such naivety is refreshing.

No, wait, that's not the word I was looking for. Foolish. Such naivety is foolish. There we go.

Indeed it is.  The world is rife with people corrupting their life's work in more meaningful fields than games over dumber things than power.   Politicians looking for pussy, for example.

I don't play EvE anymore.  I thought it was interesting the way BoB had taken over entire swaths of the game.  I didn't hate them or like them, they were irrelevant to me and my playing.   I find this whole scenario distasteful, corrupt and incredibly poorly handled.  CCP is acting like they have something to hide, and it sure as hell doesn't make me want to resub.

As you said, it's a business.  That means they have to be that much more transparent.  This kind of shit happened in text MUDs, it happened in UO, it happened in EQ, and hell I'd be surprised to find a company it HASN'T happened in.  The difference in all of them is the way it was handled.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Kamen on February 08, 2007, 10:41:46 AM

Please put aside for a second whether a dev acted improperly in this particular case.

How can CCP 100% guarantee regular players that they have a level playing field (in a game where the setback of losing things is far more severe than most games) when the developers are playing, making friends, and helping one side or another?  Currently, they are asking us to simply take their word for it that they won't misbehave, disclose who they are, and that they have uber safeguards that will 100% guarantee catching abusers.

I’m not so sure that’s enough.  Whether you know a dev is on your side doesn't matter to me.  You have an advantage, or at a bare minimum the perception of an advantage knowing developers are in the game.  I'm starting to think that it's not enough for CCP to promise a level playing field with developers in it.  They cannot even afford the perception of potential impropriety if they want to be considered legitimate.

Eve might have been able to get away with having developers actively playing when they were niche, but I'm not so sure it's a good idea any longer.  It’s time for CCP to grow up.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Der Helm on February 08, 2007, 12:08:17 PM
You guys know what ?

I do not think I would like to play a game that the developers do not play themself.

That way lies madness, tears and statements like "working as intended".


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 08, 2007, 12:39:37 PM
I don't think most people expect the devs to stop playing their own game.  This is mainly about the actions of just one of the developers, but it's more than just a little odd that so many of the top devs are in BoB... 

     BoB ALWAYS wins the pvp tournies, which have enormous prizes offered by the devs: motherships, other cap ships, etc.  Nobody doubts BoB's skill in pvp, but it's *almost* like handing yourself the prize. (Bob spying to get the fitting of the other teams annoys me as well, but that's slightly different).     
     BoB (and certain other top alliances like LV) tend to get FAR quicker responses to petitions, for vastly important/expensive things like lost cap ships, than other players/corps/alliances.
     There's a great deal of account sharing in the top alliances, which is very much against the EULA.  The devs would have had to be ignoring this and a lot of other things, some of which are much shadier than that.
     It also seems that BoB characters get way more leeway in the forums.

     One of the big issues is how a dev simply gave BoB about 10 or so T2 bpo's, which the dev had acquired on one of his characters.  Since it's the same Dev that wrote the code for the T2 Lottery (which controls all the t2 bpos), there are lots of allegations that he just spawned them for himself, or somehow got them through nefarious means.  But saying he didn't, it seems kind of odd that one character would get TEN.  You'd either have to be insanely lucky or extremely rich, and if he bought them, then that raises questions of whether he used his insider knowledge to raise that kind of money, etc etc.  The POTENTIAL for abuse is what's bothering most people, I think.

Do I think the vast majority of Devs play this game entirely on the up and up, and would never consider giving using their position for an unfair advantage?  Of course.
Do I think it's possible that one or a handful of devs abused their positions or ignored the rules for their own benefit, and if so, need to be FIRED and not just have their characters removed?  You bet.
Has CCP botched their response so far?  Hell yes.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Furiously on February 08, 2007, 01:04:21 PM
I have to say, it is MIGHTY suspicious that the person who programed the lottery, miraculously has won it 10 times...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 08, 2007, 01:07:30 PM
I would guess that it's more likely he bought them, perhaps before the public knew how valuable they were going to be, but who knows?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 08, 2007, 03:17:40 PM
Do I think it's possible that one or a handful of devs abused their positions or ignored the rules for their own benefit, and if so, need to be FIRED and not just have their characters removed?  You bet.

It's easy to ask for people to be fired.  Can they fire Oveur?  T20?  some of the other core devs?  They can't.

Hence the response.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yegolev on February 08, 2007, 03:30:10 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it.  Can't fire the owners.  I'm not really sure if it's a gigantic deal, but it certainly looks bad.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on February 08, 2007, 07:45:38 PM
I have to say, it is MIGHTY suspicious that the person who programed the lottery, miraculously has won it 10 times...
Except he didn't program it. It's the typical forum drama situation where suspicion "He couldn't have gotten these BPOs legally, he must've cheated, in order to cheat he must've been the person who had access to the code, so he must be the one who coded it" ... becomes facts few pages down the road.

Also, the idea that BPOs he owned all came from lottery is just as much pure guesswork, and not confirmed by any hard data. The BPOs are often sold by winners on EVE trade forum, anyone with ISK can collect fair number of them. Especially when BPOs in question were mostly shit quality tech.2 ammo prints, and as such selling for 1-2 bil a piece tops. And it's easy to make ISK in places like Fountain and Delve, where one can cycle between multiple 3 x 1.8 mil rat spawns per system and named officer spawns, or run the complexes and such for loot drops that sell for hundreds of millions a piece

There's corporations in game like Jericho Fraction or individuals like Khatred or Dark Shikari that came into ownership of much larger number and much better BPOs. It is possible for any player who actually works on it rather than spend time whining on forum about being at unfair disadvantage.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 08, 2007, 09:40:07 PM
I don't think most people expect the devs to stop playing their own game.  This is mainly about the actions of just one of the developers, but it's more than just a little odd that so many of the top devs are in BoB

Quite, I can readily accept the developers must play their own game, but why do the top devs seem clustered in the poopsocking ubercorps?  If they wanted to get a good idea where most their players are at they should be anonymous empire mission runners or some shit.  If that play style is too boring for their tastes then the problem and solution should be obvious.

Now before you say "BoB were under the spotlight that's why a bunch of devs were outed there"

Quote from: Our hacker friend
Btw so much for all alliances having devs/gm.

Doing the same IP lookup on ASCN board we found only one dev and he had joined long time ago and left shortly after.

Doing the same IP lookup on Goonfleet... I don't see anyone except GM Eldini who was forced to leave the forums... I haven't checked IP from ISD, etc... though.

GM Eldini registered using that username during the fanfest to say hello to a bunch of goons he'd met.  Shortly after he asked to be banned after apparently getting in trouble at work over having an account, I find that delightfully ironic.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: tmp on February 08, 2007, 10:11:40 PM
Now before you say "BoB were under the spotlight that's why a bunch of devs were outed there"

Quote from: Our hacker friend
Btw so much for all alliances having devs/gm.

Doing the same IP lookup on ASCN board we found only one dev and he had joined long time ago and left shortly after.

Doing the same IP lookup on Goonfleet... I don't see anyone except GM Eldini who was forced to leave the forums... I haven't checked IP from ISD, etc... though.
If he's matching IPs used to connect to public forum to determine who's a dev, there's high possibility he will miss a lot of them. A one or two devs who were silly enough to connect to BoB board from work and provided the match that allowed to out them doesn't mean all 750 employees of CCP are.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 08, 2007, 10:26:25 PM
If he's matching IPs used to connect to public forum to determine who's a dev, there's high possibility he will miss a lot of them. A one or two devs who were silly enough to connect to BoB board from work and provided the match that allowed to out them doesn't mean all 750 employees of CCP are.

So you're saying BoB got all the dumb ones? :)

t20 registered on the BoB boards using his @ccpgames.com email address.  That's not dumb, that's arrogance.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: tmp on February 08, 2007, 10:38:01 PM
So you're saying BoB got all the dumb ones? :)

t20 registered on the BoB boards using his @ccpgames.com email address.  That's not dumb, that's arrogance.
Well t20 registered with CCP email and then used either work IP or one that tracked back to registered information he's CCP employee to read/post on forums with his game characters so yeah, that's hardly brightest move he could do. But it doesn't mean all of them are like that, so if the hacker guy didn't match any IPs then it doesn't really rule out people who are CCP employees but do have brains to connect through proxy etc.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Strazos on February 09, 2007, 03:56:48 AM
I would think that maybe they'd want to make their own CCP corp.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on February 09, 2007, 04:07:08 AM
I would think that maybe they'd want to make their own CCP corp.
It's called 'The Kru' or something.
Allegedly.

Or it could be (as they claim) purely coincidental that a corp with large numbers of old-school Icelandic players merged with Reikoku a fair old while back (e.g. before the T2 lottery was introduced), and suddenly decided to split back off into an independant entity just as people started asking why RKK had CCP devs in it.  :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on February 09, 2007, 11:47:02 AM
It's called 'The Kru' or something.
Allegedly.

Or it could be (as they claim) purely coincidental that a corp with large numbers of old-school Icelandic players merged with Reikoku a fair old while back (e.g. before the T2 lottery was introduced), and suddenly decided to split back off into an independant entity just as people started asking why RKK had CCP devs in it.  :roll:
If I read relevant threads on official forum correct, Kru players made appearance on EVE-TV during the latest alliance tournament, and are 15-16 year olds.

And their employment history shows they joined Reikoku in November 2006. Which is 3 months ago rather than long while back, and way after introduction of tech.2 lottery and long after the events reported by hacker took place.

This is seriously nothing but witch hunt at this point, operating on hearsay, conjectures and completely devoid of perspective and ability to look past the vaguest sign of "suspicious coincidences"

"An Icelander, an Icelander, ban them!"


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on February 09, 2007, 02:42:09 PM
Hey tmp - you're wrong about the BPOs (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473335).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 09, 2007, 02:49:56 PM
Hey tmp - you're wrong about the BPOs (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473335).

I'm not surprised they got yanked and raffled back. Like I said before -- if he poofed them into existance, rigged the lottery, exploited a bug -- it would be caught by simple auditing or simple math. My mistake was thinking they would have stated "We're still investigating the T2 BPOs" -- their statement didn't mention T2 BPOs, so I assumed they had already found them legit -- else they would have said something in that post.

And dude -- crappy BPOs to cheat for, you know? (Well, not all of them -- but several of them. Ammo BPO's really aren't that expensive, at least for a 0.0 corp)

I find Hellmar's statement (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=423) to be good (an excerpt):
Quote
When the recent allegations came to light, our Internal Affairs department immediately went to work, reexamining logs for all the developers involved in great detail over the course of several days. They have concluded that none of the other developers abused their positions to gain any advantage for themselves or others. In accordance with our rules however, those characters must be removed from the game. Developers have had, and continue to have, characters in many alliances in the game, and it is wrong to assume that the presence of several characters in any one particular alliance is either uncommon, or automatically indicative of cheating.
[...]
As we look to the future, we will endeavor to improve our handling of these matters by acting in a manner that is both swift and consistent with company policy. It is regrettable that such instances reveal flaws in our governance, but by the same token, addressing them decisively is what makes our company stronger. We now have resources dedicated to performing audits of dev activity on Tranquility with much more frequency than before. This, combined with additional layers of security, and the non-negotiable penalty of employment termination upon conviction of such acts, represents the full extent that we will go to deter dev misconduct.

The developers of this company will always play the games that they build here. Without being fully immersed in the player experience, perspective, and community, it is impossible to build, maintain, and expand online worlds with any degree of competency. And while that does expose us to some degree of risk, the rewards are incalculably higher. EVE has grown stronger every year since its inception; these bumps in the road are an inevitable part of the journey we must endure as a growing company; and we would not be here today if we opted to isolate ourselves from the player experience of EVE Online.

Question -- is t20 a fireable Dev? Or part-owner?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 09, 2007, 03:05:52 PM
I'm not the most knowledgable about T2 items, but I'm willing to bet the Sabre BPO is a licence to print money.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 09, 2007, 03:06:15 PM
I'm not the most knowledgable about T2 items, but I'm willing to bet the Sabre BPO is a licence to print money.

The Sabre BPO is indeed top-tier.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Miasma on February 09, 2007, 03:13:00 PM
That t20 post was funny, I don't even play EvE but knew it was swimming in shit.  "Of the the allegations against me only the one that can actually be proven is true, thankfully the other stuff can't be logged and audited".


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 09, 2007, 03:17:36 PM
So they took out the BPO's, but what about all the cash generated by the BPO's? How about all the people who died as a result of the stuff made by the BPO's? Or even the cash to buy other stuff as a result of the BPO's?

It's all just one giant pile of shit now.


PS. I shouldn't be using the apostrophe after BPO, should I?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 09, 2007, 03:25:16 PM
I'm not the most knowledgable about T2 items, but I'm willing to bet the Sabre BPO is a licence to print money.
That's why I went back and modified it. Didn't see the Sabre the first time through -- just the ammo BPOs.

Miasma:

Yeah. That's why I was wondering if t20 was fireable. I do like that CCP even put together an in-house audit team in the first place, and seems to have reacted to this by strengthening it and increasing random audits. Then again, Hellmar would probably be best situated to understand how that kind of crap is going to be a real problem.

I really, really, REALLY would have been happier if yesterday's post had included "The T2 BPO allegations are still be looking into" -- there's a lot of eve mouthbreathers thinking that CCP only fessed up because of the last 24 hours of "BUT YOU DIDN'T MENTION THE T2 BPOs!". I rather doubt that's the case.

Fordel: I don't know if that's even possible. It's like with gold dupes -- sometimes, you just have to limit the damage as best you can or else you fuck it up worse. This is especially the case in complex virutal economies. I'm not sure if you ever played SWG, but they once tried to handle a gold dupe by banning everyone involved -- anyone who duped it, anyone who took the duped gold. Except the gold dupers were running around handing it out to beggars, or buying lots of shit off vendors. A lot of top-end merchans and armorsmiths got banned because people were using duped gold (second, third, or forth hand) to buy shit off of vendors.

To be fair, you'd have to seperate out who was acting in good faith and who wasn't -- who knew it was a rigged BPO and who didn't. You don't want to penalize, say, someone who made T2 ammo off a BPC never knowing it was a dev fuckup. He wasted time, material, and money -- should he have it yanked from him even though he did nothing wrong?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 09, 2007, 03:53:03 PM
Nah, don't think they should go around banning everyone attached, just commenting on how messed up it all is now.



EVE was already the game that did everything to reward the guy who had been around the longest, where all the big players are essentially the Old Boys club. Now it is confirmed that the people who already have all the advantages and power, are also getting Dev advantages and power?


Why would I want to play this game? Why would I believe anything CCP says now?  I'm sure some people are thinking "It was just this one instance!", but how do we know? Can we really ever know? Shit, it took a hacker to even acknowledge the possibility at first. I really wonder how much of EVE's player driven world is really just some devs own personal SciFi fantasy manifest. I have no illusion that other MMO's are somehow clean of this nonesense, but EVE is the only one where it would really matter. Some WoW GM spawns himself a Epic 2h, what do I care? Some EVE Dev actively influences arguably the most powerfull alliance in game with out of game means, the alliance that has already wiped out half a dozen other alliances, negatively impacting literal thousands of players game experience? That is just shit.

The game is just too 'hardcore' to have this kind of doubt for me... so much for that player driven experience, eh? ;)





Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 09, 2007, 04:08:07 PM
Bizarre timing, with BoB now at war with the two other serious 0.0 powers and numerous smaller ones. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Trippy on February 09, 2007, 04:08:43 PM
Hey tmp - you're wrong about the BPOs (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473335).
Wait, the CEO says their Internal Affairs department found nothing wrong and yet the dev that did cheat came forward and admitted it. What does that say about CCP's IA department?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: ajax34i on February 09, 2007, 04:11:00 PM
I really wonder how much of EVE's player driven world is really just some devs own personal SciFi fantasy manifest.

EVE is the game they (the devs) wanted to play; from their point of view, they coded THE game they all wanted.  I think they said this in a blog or IRC chat interview in 2004 or 2003, or it might just be my misconception about what they said.  But every now and then I got the vibe that they indeed liked to play EVE, and not "play" to find the bugs (which is what we expect of devs), but really play to win (win at PVP, beat the alliances, etc.).  They didn't just make it for us, they made it for themselves too.

Shrug.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 09, 2007, 04:22:48 PM
Why would I want to play this game?

According to you, yourself, a page ago, you haven't for half a year.

You sure seem to care a whole lot though. Or at least you're quite loud about it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 09, 2007, 04:30:06 PM
EVE is that game that I wanted to like, but just never did. Like others have said before, it's often more fun to read and talk about EVE then to actually play it :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 09, 2007, 04:48:53 PM
Hey tmp - you're wrong about the BPOs (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473335).
Wait, the CEO says their Internal Affairs department found nothing wrong and yet the dev that did cheat came forward and admitted it. What does that say about CCP's IA department?

That was my first thought. I read it more closely, and understood:
Quote
When the recent allegations came to light, our Internal Affairs department immediately went to work, reexamining logs for all the developers involved in great detail over the course of several days. They have concluded that none of the other developers abused their positions to gain any advantage for themselves or others. In accordance with our rules however, those characters must be removed from the game. Developers have had, and continue to have, characters in many alliances in the game, and it is wrong to assume that the presence of several characters in any one particular alliance is either uncommon, or automatically indicative of cheating.
Judging by the forum post on it, the blogs were meant to be read together. t20 admits he did it. Hellmar discusses the steps CCP has taken in the past to combat this, what they've changed, and the results of an exhaustive audit of Dev accounts.

It'd have been clearer if he'd said something like "Aside from t20, none of the other developers...."


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 09, 2007, 05:25:57 PM
Haha holy shit, I was wrong after all, he is just an enormous dumbass.  Shame it had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of CCP though, and they're still glossing over many of the allegations.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Morat20 on February 09, 2007, 05:36:22 PM
Haha holy shit, I was wrong after all, he is just an enormous dumbass.  Shame it had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of CCP though, and they're still glossing over many of the allegations.
Most of them aren't proveable -- and some of them are idiotic. "OMG, FUCKING DEVS PLAY IN CORPS!". Stupid. "OMG, DEVS GAME BOB WAR INFO" -- unproveable, unless BoB players are willing to step forward an offer concrete examples that couldn't be gained by covort ops ships or something. "OMG, GAVE INSIDE INFORMATION ALLOWING PROFIT OFF UPCOMING CHANGES" -- pretty hard to prove, as Devs speak a lot about upcoming changes, they're on the test server for a long time, and vets will have a pretty good idea of where to speculate with mineral prices and the like.

T2 BPOs, however, have an auditable trail through the DB that can be traced at any point. And I suspect the GM tools are having their logging increased substantially.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 09, 2007, 05:45:12 PM
Can we dial the histrionics down past 11? Feeling frustrated, angry, hurt, betrayed - that's fine. But we're not on Eve-O or the Vault here.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Margalis on February 09, 2007, 06:01:34 PM
From an outside perspective this looks awfully fucked up. It isn't the first time this has happened either. There is clearly a company culture that makes it permissable to do this sort of thing, and the covering-up and ignoring makes it that much worse.

In cases like these, where abuse has already taken place, just the opportunity for or appearance of abuse is bad.

Can't the CCP devs better predict the value of things? Know a little bit more about the combat? Know about upcoming game changes in advance? It is the equivalent of insider trading.

I have no problem with CCP guys playing their own game but to have major leadership positions is screwy. IMO all devs should be identifiable as devs from the get-go in-game.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Trippy on February 09, 2007, 07:34:50 PM
Wait, the CEO says their Internal Affairs department found nothing wrong and yet the dev that did cheat came forward and admitted it. What does that say about CCP's IA department?
That was my first thought. I read it more closely, and understood:
Quote
When the recent allegations came to light, our Internal Affairs department immediately went to work, reexamining logs for all the developers involved in great detail over the course of several days. They have concluded that none of the other developers abused their positions to gain any advantage for themselves or others. In accordance with our rules however, those characters must be removed from the game. Developers have had, and continue to have, characters in many alliances in the game, and it is wrong to assume that the presence of several characters in any one particular alliance is either uncommon, or automatically indicative of cheating.
Judging by the forum post on it, the blogs were meant to be read together. t20 admits he did it. Hellmar discusses the steps CCP has taken in the past to combat this, what they've changed, and the results of an exhaustive audit of Dev accounts.

It'd have been clearer if he'd said something like "Aside from t20, none of the other developers...."
I saw that too but that's not how I read it. He spent the first part talking about some incidents in the past so I read the "other" as "current" developers. And yes he could have made it explicitly clear by mentioning t20's involvement with the BPOs this time around.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on February 10, 2007, 02:58:36 AM
Devs should play their own game, not cheat at their own game.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Trouble on February 10, 2007, 12:29:06 PM
According to the devblog the allegations about the BPOs are true.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=424

Quote
As you might have read and heard, there were recently some allegations posted regarding developer misconduct that basically come down to:

    * Developers helping (an) alliance(s) gain information they otherwise would not have.
    * Developers having an unfair advantage of game mechanics.
    * Developers helping themselves acquire goods in-game by means of in-house tools, otherwise not available to regular players.

All allegations mentioned above are untrue, except one. Sadly enough, the allegation regarding unlawfully obtained blueprints are, in my case, true. I’m here, laying out the facts of what happened in June 2006 so this whole issue -- which jeopardized my colleagues, my company and our community -- can be put behind us, I hope for the better.

The blueprints in question will be returned to CCP and reintroduced through a new raffle in the future. Specifically, these are:

    * Flameburst Precision Light Missile Blueprint
    * Phalanx Rage Rocket Blueprint
    * Havoc Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint
    * Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile Blueprint
    * Spike L Blueprint
    * Sabre Blueprint

Regrettably, my actions inevitably led to a shadow of suspicion being cast on a number of my co-workers, as well as Reikoku and Band of Brothers. I wish to make it clear that I acted alone and my co-workers and corp/alliance mates have been cleared of any alleged wrongdoing.

As much as this is a confession it is also a request for your forgiveness for events of which I’m truly sorry.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Der Helm on February 10, 2007, 12:56:56 PM
(http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/newsletter/witch-burning.jpg)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on February 10, 2007, 05:12:19 PM
Hey tmp - you're wrong about the BPOs (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473335).
Yup, colour me surprised. Out of all things, I'd never expect the BPO part to be true. Just seemed too unlikely since --given how much attention players pay to them-- I was expecting CCP to track their distribution like a hawk.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on February 10, 2007, 05:58:39 PM
If the referees cheat, and stay referees, there is no point to the game.  Masturbation is a more rewarding pursuit.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Tragny on February 10, 2007, 06:47:56 PM
If the referees cheat, and stay referees, there is no point to the game.  Masturbation is a more rewarding pursuit.

I don't know why, but this amused me quite a bit. Likely because I've a juvenile outlook. Therefore, sigged!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: angry.bob on February 10, 2007, 06:50:30 PM
(http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/newsletter/witch-burning.jpg)

For it to be a witchhunt, shouldn't at least some of the things they were accused of doing not have been absolutely true and admitted to?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on February 10, 2007, 07:32:36 PM
Image Removed, it was pretty good, but we've seen it twice now.

For it to be a witchhunt, shouldn't at least some of the things they were accused of doing not have been absolutely true and admitted to?

Idiomaticy, sure the term is wrong, but technically, that just means it was a successful witchhunt.

I have some historical perspective, which I commend to you, even though it is fairly dry PBS stuff:

This is a link to the people and events of the late 1950s Quiz Show scandal (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/quizshow/peopleevents/index.html), which resulted in congressional hearings and legislation (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/quizshow/peopleevents/pande07.html).  Technically, what has happened here might be seen as illegal in the US under the Communications Act of 1960, particularly since a raffle was involved.

Here is a review of the move Quiz Show (http://doctorgreenberg.net/quizshow.htm).  I can't speak to it's quality as a review, having never seen the movie, and it clearly is dealing with a fictionalized and opinionated film, as you can see from reviewing the prior links, but I thought it was some pretty decent writing, and got to what I'm feeling pretty well.

I think there is something important for this industry to consider here.  In the PBEM days, I saw very popular games collapse because of such scadals, and I have to wonder, what if this was happening in a game with WoW's profile and popularity, rather than a smaller independent title?  If you look at the links above, you will notice that this had become a culture of corruption in early TV, and was as damaging to the quiz show format as the Comics Code was to comics.  We get plenty alarmed about the threat of a 'Comics Code' for games, and I think we should also be alramed about this.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 10, 2007, 07:58:40 PM
Hey tmp - you're wrong about the BPOs (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473335).
Yup, colour me surprised. Out of all things, I'd never expect the BPO part to be true. Just seemed too unlikely since --given how much attention players pay to them-- I was expecting CCP to track their distribution like a hawk.


Oh they caught it, they just didn't do anything about it. Not until it became a public affair.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473490&page=1#3

Third post in:
Quote
Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.


It's extra special now  :heart:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tazelbain on February 10, 2007, 08:01:18 PM
I think we have figured out what "meaningful PvP" means


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on February 10, 2007, 08:27:35 PM
Oh they caught it, they just didn't do anything about it. Not until it became a public affair.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=473490&page=1#3

Third post in:
Quote
Internally, this incident was discovered over the summer when the majority of the senior company staff was on vacation. This lead to the caution against taking more harsh measures such as termination of employment. T20 was punished at the time for his misconduct. To terminate t20's employment now would appease some of the more emotional members of the community, but it would also be unfair to punish someone twice for the same misconduct.

It's extra special now  :heart:
Yes, I meant the posts on hacker's site indicated that it was discovered in the first place (during the summer) because the dev in question was petitioned by unnamed player over this very issue (spawning BPOs for himself or whatever way he used). As in, CCP didn't actually catch him themselves until notified, by the looks of it. And then since the BPOs were left in the game it just made it all look like they were in fact legit... pretty crazy all around.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Comstar on February 10, 2007, 08:52:42 PM
I was hoping someone had saved this. Wounder if it got deleted afterwards.

(http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/7/2/10/f_signiturem_cca1930.jpg)

Hmm, 75+ page thread now on eve-online, and DB P seems absent, though I missed reading about 40 pages. Mabye he did get banned.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yegolev on February 12, 2007, 10:53:49 PM
I suddenly got the mental image of Hilmar being in a CCP version of The Departed.

I should think it's well known that the CCP founders play their own game competitively, if you read interviews and such.  I don't mind that so much, but I can understand the community's sentiments in regards to them all being in BoB.  Nevermind the apparent forum bias, or even considering cheating, it's just somewhat bothersome that the top players are all in one alliance.  No one likes BoB and the big fish is bleeding now.

Not that I have time to play now.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Comstar on February 13, 2007, 12:49:41 AM
Well the story appears over. 100+ pages of posts, and it's locked. All new threads deleted. No new comment from CCP past page 10 or so. T20 keeps his job. BoD keeps the money (wounder how many sabre's got build, or BPCs). The war continues. BoD deploys another Titan (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=475305).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Reg on February 13, 2007, 04:09:54 AM
Well it won't be forgotten. No matter what happens to BoB good or bad it's going to be blamed on the absence or the presence of Dev favoritism.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 13, 2007, 08:20:34 AM
Yeah, the snide comments about devs cheating will continue for a while, but will eventually stop, too.  This past weekend's peak concurrent was 30k, same as previous weekends, so it doesn't look like they lost any players (but perhaps we need to wait a month for subscriptions to expire).  The war serves as the interesting carrot to keep people from leaving.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on February 13, 2007, 01:21:06 PM
The snide comments will continue a long time, witness the enduring hate some people have (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9348.0), although that fades with a few years.  Since most people don't read any game boards, there probably won't be that much change, but the good viral marketing that EVE and CCP has been enjoying will change more to negative press (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9367.0).  Certainly the next time my my non-board warrior friends and I talk MMOs, I'll propound on this.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Teleku on February 14, 2007, 12:36:16 AM
Christ, after reading the corp boards I have to just root for BoB now.  The whole melodramatic, self righteous whining the people are throwing around with this war is just annoys the fuck out of me.  The BoD usage thing is just retarded as well.  I hope BoB survives intact just to piss them all off.  Not that I have any love for BoB or anything, but I think all major 0.0 alliances are mainly composed of a bunch of catass worthless pricks, no better than BoB.  Seeing their grand crusade fail would cause so many agonized tears that the servers would blow up from water damage.  It would be glorious.  (Though all things considered, with almost every single major Alliance in the game Vs. BoB right now, they are in deep shit). 
I don’t particularly care about the developer scandal much, since it pretty much would never effect me, or the majority of people on this board (0.0 PvP is the Eve equivalent of Raiding people.  Not for anything approaching the masses.  Even when we were apart of 0.0 alliances, I didn’t feel like I was really taking part in any of these grand politics/battles.  Of course -V- and Goonswarm were kind of retarded as well.)  I think its bad, don’t get me wrong, but I actually DO think it doesn’t have a terribly big impact on the game, or even BoBs effectiveness (they are too insanely rich/catass for that small of perks to matter much).


And oddly, I now have this strong desire to resub and go mine lots of expensive ore.........wtf is wrong with me.  Though, I believe if I log back on, Ill find myself in the old -V- station, along with most my mining equipment.  At least that means I could sell it all off before I jump out of the station and get podded I guess, heh.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 14, 2007, 04:30:27 AM
You know, I really, really fail to see how anyone could continue to play a game like this when it's become clear that the Developers were cheating in it.

Particularly in EVE, doesn't that invalidate the whole point ?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Megrim on February 14, 2007, 06:56:42 AM
You know, I really, really fail to see how anyone could continue to play a game like this when it's become clear that the Developers were cheating in it.

Particularly in EVE, doesn't that invalidate the whole point ?

As with all things, i suspect it's not so much the favouritism that bothers people, but the fact that there was an attempted cover-up subsequently. I imagine that this might be because ultimately the BoB > * thing doesn't really effect many players on any individual level (ok so they lost fleet battles, boo-hoo), but the brazen disregard for public opinion has genuinely hurt those players who would consider themselves to be 'loyal customers'.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 14, 2007, 07:34:21 AM
Probably stings a lot more for the folks who were actually in the alliances that got steamrolled by BoB. Now they get to wonder if things would've been different if BoB didn't have Dev help. Odds are, no, they all still would have died a horrible death. Doesn't make them feel any better about it though.


The whole EVE War 1 thing going on has probably gotten enough people to re-sub to offset any losses from the Dev Cheating crap. A LOT of people *REALLY* want a piece of BoB, no matter how small a part they will actually play.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Simond on February 14, 2007, 08:43:33 AM
Christ, after reading the corp boards I have to just root for BoB now.
That's...interesting. Siding with the cheats because people are upset about cheating? What did Redswarm ever do to you?

Quote
And oddly, I now have this strong desire to resub and go mine lots of expensive ore.........wtf is wrong with me.  Though, I believe if I log back on, Ill find myself in the old -V- station, along with most my mining equipment.
Ah. ;-)


And speaking of people wanting a piece of BoB, they lost a Nyx (carrier) BPO to their enemies last night. I'm surprised there hasn't been more attacks on shipping & corp theft attempts yet, as well.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Soln on February 14, 2007, 08:50:42 AM
Ironwood clarity FTW

here's an honest question: isn't there only one uber corp/alliance on the new China cluster that is totally dominating gameplay over there?    I've seen that mentioned recently in Eve-O boards and around.  If so, what really is to prevent this on TQ?  CCP is presuming Western players will self-destruct at some point and no mega alliance will prevail?  And/or they are presuming western players will show some restraint and not obliterate any of their competition while they are still growing? 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on February 14, 2007, 10:35:21 AM
Christ, after reading the corp boards I have to just root for BoB now. 

I don't get this at all.  Seeing people get annoyed about cheating and try to punich the cheats in-game makes you root for.. the cheats?!?

As with all things, i suspect it's not so much the favouritism that bothers people, but the fact that there was an attempted cover-up subsequently.

Spot-on for me.  This may seem like a somewhat grandiose comparison, but I am so pissed off about the lying, corruption and subsequent whitewashes and cover-ups of my government (the Blair regime), that my reaction to seeing the same "we'll investigate it ourselves... oh, turns out it was only one person and he's very sorry, kthxbye" routine occurring here is visceral.

here's an honest question: isn't there only one uber corp/alliance on the new China cluster that is totally dominating gameplay over there? ... If so, what really is to prevent this on TQ?  CCP is presuming Western players will self-destruct at some point and no mega alliance will prevail?

The Chinese, of course, have lived for sixty years with the idea that one murderous and corrupt regime runs everything.  They might just have got used to it.  And perhaps, as in real life, their monolithic regime might be tremendously corrupt, too, allowing everyone to pay lip-service to it but largely profit as they wish.  As long as they don't get fitted up for one of their hundreds of "if you're charged, you're guilty; if you're guilty, you're shot" sections of the penal code.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yegolev on February 14, 2007, 11:50:06 AM
Quote
And oddly, I now have this strong desire to resub and go mine lots of expensive ore.........wtf is wrong with me.  Though, I believe if I log back on, Ill find myself in the old -V- station, along with most my mining equipment.
Ah. ;-)

I wouldn't read so much into the tenuous-at-best connection between F13 and -V-, which would lean us away from LV and BoB if anything.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 14, 2007, 12:41:20 PM
I can feel the love.

(http://forums.f13.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9285.0;attach=2462)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 14, 2007, 12:45:09 PM
Wow, a big vagina space station....


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Morat20 on February 14, 2007, 01:38:32 PM
That picture amuses me. Carry on.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on February 14, 2007, 03:23:06 PM
Wait, does the Amarr Titan really open up like that when you use the hanger function? Would be pretty keen if it did.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yegolev on February 14, 2007, 03:27:57 PM
That's not a space station.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: eldaec on February 14, 2007, 03:57:26 PM
That's no moon!

fixed.

sorry.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Furiously on February 14, 2007, 04:37:05 PM
No - it's your rear and the ship is CCP about to bend you over.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: WayAbvPar on February 14, 2007, 05:17:26 PM
No - it's your rear and the ship is CCP about to bend you over.

Happy Valentine's Day, players! Now bend over and smile like a donut.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: TheDreamr on February 14, 2007, 05:51:15 PM
here's an honest question: isn't there only one uber corp/alliance on the new China cluster that is totally dominating gameplay over there?    I've seen that mentioned recently in Eve-O boards and around.  If so, what really is to prevent this on TQ?  CCP is presuming Western players will self-destruct at some point and no mega alliance will prevail?  And/or they are presuming western players will show some restraint and not obliterate any of their competition while they are still growing? 

At one point around September (http://eve.duowan.com/2006/09/15/34602410.html) I'm pretty sure there were several  alliances controlling territory on the Chinese cluster (serenity), and basically catassing through content at such a stupid rate resources were no object and the bottleneck became the time it took to get people trained.   In fairness I haven't seen much "solid" looking commentary on serenity recently, so bearing that in mind...

There was some discussion (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=462654) last month about one of the PC gaming rags running a story that "the" biggest alliance on serenity controlling nearly all the 0.0 regions, and having the head of a major chinese gold farming outfit running the alliance while paid accounts slowly decline (http://eve.coldfront.net/status/serenity).

Without objective commentary it's hard to judge whether that's a blatant troll, piss-poor journalism, or maybe just the truth.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Teleku on February 15, 2007, 01:22:37 AM
First, as I already mentioned, I think the "cheat" thing is way blown out of proportion anyways, so again, the stupid self rightous thing bugs me.  Also, these people are just bandwagoning on the dev scandel for an excuse.  The BoB hate was already wide spread long before this came down, and the War was going to happen despite it.  The politics were already being set up in the aftermath of their last war.  So this isnt really a matter of people trying to take down the cheaters, just masking general hatered to make themselves look noble.

But beyond all that, as I said, I think almost ALL major Eve alliances are a bunch of elitist asshole catass's.  I dont really view any of them as better than BoB at all in that regard (goonswarm is actually kind of funny since they take a less serious approach to the game then alot of the drama whores I run into in it, so I actually kind of like them).  So, BoB's continued existance drives all the others mad.  Therefore, I root for BoB as victories for them will result in the greatest amount of anger  :wink:.

And yes, I dont care about -V- falling apart.  I was just saying that when I last let my sub run out, we were still in that alliance, and all my shit (along with my char) is sitting in one of their previously owned stations.  I dont hold any grudge against Redswarm (-V- leadership sucked anyways).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 15, 2007, 04:20:44 AM
Yes, but you're not right.  I don't play (though I was wanting to until this), so I don't have any axe to grind at all with any guild or alliance.  All I see is that this game is supposed to have 'Meanginful' PvP.

It has been brought to light that a Developer of the game, on the side of one of the biggest PvP Guilds, was using his Developer Tools to make that guild more powerful.  It doesn't matter to what extent he did that or what 'proportion' you'd like to assign it :  Suddenly, your PvP isn't meaningful at all.  It's fucking trivial.

It's like playing a marathon game of Monopoly that's tense and exciting only to find out on Audit that the player acting as the Banker was feeding himself wads of 100's.

It's fucked.  And I can't believe as a player that you're passing it off as a small thing.  Continually.  There's a good quote from Brokentoys where someone with the same view as you said 'At least it shows that the Developers care enough about their game to cheat.'

I swear, I still haven't stopped laughing/sobbing at that one.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 15, 2007, 04:21:36 AM
Also, can we all please start spelling Scandal right ?

FFS.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: tmp on February 15, 2007, 05:12:00 AM
It has been brought to light that a Developer of the game, on the side of one of the biggest PvP Guilds, was using his Developer Tools to make that guild more powerful.  It doesn't matter to what extent he did that or what 'proportion' you'd like to assign it :  Suddenly, your PvP isn't meaningful at all.  It's fucking trivial.
There's this completely unfounded presumption the cheating only went on single side and affected just one party.

When it's pointed out "it was only one guy" the haters jump up and down in nerd rage spitting and screaming "lies! lies! only one was caught, they are all cheaters, Band of Developers!". Well, if we accept this logic then it must be applied to all equally -- there's zero reason to believe other devs weren't "helping" other alliances as well, they just didn't get caught (yet).

And when everyone is cheating, then no one is.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 15, 2007, 05:21:08 AM
You're a fucking moron.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on February 15, 2007, 05:39:02 AM
There's this completely unfounded presumption the cheating only went on single side and affected just one party.

When it's pointed out "it was only one guy" the haters jump up and down in nerd rage spitting and screaming "lies! lies! only one was caught, they are all cheaters, Band of Developers!". Well, if we accept this logic then it must be applied to all equally -- there's zero reason to believe other devs weren't "helping" other alliances as well, they just didn't get caught (yet).

And when everyone is cheating, then no one is.

I'd love to introduce you to my friend, Occam, and his razor.  Although just any old razor, properly introduced to you, would nicely improve the average grasp of logic round here.

Edit: dumb spelling fixed


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 15, 2007, 08:51:54 AM
Arkanon's Blog (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=429) posted two days ago mentions something about "cheating" and how he's going to eradicate it or something.  Basically, their Internal Affairs division will be like a GM division but for dev accounts, with investigations and bannings and the whole 9 yds.  His actions are in turn reviewed by a committee to ensure that he's not playing favorites.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 15, 2007, 09:03:28 AM
I wonder how many times he re-drafted that.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 15, 2007, 09:11:40 AM
Probably many times; the section about how devs should play the game but not be leaders of factions mirrors feelings expressed on these boards.  It's a precisely-written piece.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Merusk on February 15, 2007, 11:28:05 AM
How appropriate, you fight like a cow.

No, hang on....

Damnit, now I have find some emulators for the older ones.  Curse you.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 15, 2007, 11:43:54 AM
Probably many times; the section about how devs should play the game but not be leaders of factions mirrors feelings expressed on these boards.  It's a precisely-written piece.

If that becomes policy it'll be enough for me, but he was asked a few times for clarification and it seems like it's just personal opinion.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 15, 2007, 12:20:55 PM
How appropriate, you fight like a cow.


No, hang on....

Damnit, now I have find some emulators for the older ones.  Curse you.
You know, you'd think more companies would do the "Revamp Older Games" thing. I think I saw Sierra had bundled up some old games (Space Quest?) with an emulator, so you could just "plug-and-play" -- but I'd like to see more total revamps like Pirates.

I'd love to play Betrayal at Krondor with modern graphics and RPG concepts, for one. And replay the Monkey Island games where I can get sound on the older ones...:)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandal.
Post by: eldaec on February 15, 2007, 12:34:48 PM
You know, you'd think more companies would do the "Revamp Older Games" thing. I think I saw Sierra had bundled up some old games (Space Quest?) with an emulator, so you could just "plug-and-play" -- but I'd like to see more total revamps like Pirates.

You're in luck, we have several fine sub-forums dedicated to EQ revamps on this very website. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?board=26.0)

 :rimshot:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on February 15, 2007, 02:57:25 PM
It has been brought to light that a Developer of the game, on the side of one of the biggest PvP Guilds, was using his Developer Tools to make that guild more powerful.  It doesn't matter to what extent he did that or what 'proportion' you'd like to assign it :  Suddenly, your PvP isn't meaningful at all.  It's fucking trivial.
There's this completely unfounded presumption the cheating only went on single side and affected just one party.

When it's pointed out "it was only one guy" the haters jump up and down in nerd rage spitting and screaming "lies! lies! only one was caught, they are all cheaters, Band of Developers!". Well, if we accept this logic then it must be applied to all equally -- there's zero reason to believe other devs weren't "helping" other alliances as well, they just didn't get caught (yet).

And when everyone is cheating, then no one is.

Sorry, but if everyone is cheating, then the game is a joke.

Here's a current (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17136318/) example (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17158198/).

Quote
Old-timers, in fact, still talk in reverent tones about the day an aging Richard Petty finally got his 200th career win — on July 4, 1984, with President Reagan in the stands — as though it were ordained from on high. And it might have been. Petty, 47 at the time, never picked up No. 201, despite eight more years spent trying.

The greater and more dramatic the accomplishment, the more it becomes suspect in an environment of rampant cheating.

In the end, you wind up here (http://www.wwe.com/).

On other matters:

How appropriate, you fight like a cow.


No, hang on....

Damnit, now I have find some emulators for the older ones.  Curse you.
You know, you'd think more companies would do the "Revamp Older Games" thing. I think I saw Sierra had bundled up some old games (Space Quest?) with an emulator, so you could just "plug-and-play" -- but I'd like to see more total revamps like Pirates.

I'd love to play Betrayal at Krondor with modern graphics and RPG concepts, for one. And replay the Monkey Island games where I can get sound on the older ones...:)

Ideas are cheap, the cost is all in the assets, so there isn't much advantage to retreading old games, particularly if the IP is owned by somebody else.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Kamen on February 15, 2007, 03:03:43 PM
It has been brought to light that a Developer of the game, on the side of one of the biggest PvP Guilds, was using his Developer Tools to make that guild more powerful.  It doesn't matter to what extent he did that or what 'proportion' you'd like to assign it :  Suddenly, your PvP isn't meaningful at all.  It's fucking trivial.

Agreed 100% - as long as your Eve game is the 0.0 alliance warfare thing.  I still maintain that is impossible to ever have unquestioned "meaningful" PvP as long as the dev's are logging in and fighting in the 0.0 wars.  Whether you know they are on one side or the other is irrelevant.  Knowing that they could be there turns every in game oddity into a tinfoil hat exercise.

To the best of my knowledge the dev's don't muck around much with us low life Empire scum.  This pleases me.  At least my carebearing and PvP is “meaningful” to me unless and until I hear they have pulled some shenanigans in Empire.  That’s pretty unlikely IMO as they consider the “real game” to be 0.0 warfare.  I consider 0.0 warfare boring as hell, so as long as our paths aren’t crossing I can tolerate their presence.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 15, 2007, 03:24:30 PM
"Everybody cheating" is an impossibility, because there aren't enough devs in the company to help out every single damn player in the game.  I mean, the only logical conclusion to devs being allowed to "help out" players is that they implement some sort of interface whereby any player can request, and get, dev help, via whatever process.  Then we're all on equal footing again, but the game goes to hell and the dev time ends up being spent all on player requests, instead of coding.

The one thing that bugs me about devs playing "competitively" is that I know the amount of time that has to be put in, and the addictions involved, to play "competitively" at the level where you're involved in leading or organizing an alliance.  And so, if they play that much, no wonder they don't have time to code a damn thing, and it takes them forever to implement new stuff, and it's full of bugs.  No wonder.  If I'm addicted to a game, my spare time and my work suffer, and so if my job is to code for said game, bugs aren't gonna get fixed and expansions aren't gonna get made on time.

They're losing credibility as a professional dev house on so many levels...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: tmp on February 15, 2007, 03:48:56 PM
I'd love to intriduce you to my friend, Occam, and his razor.  Although just any old razor, properly introduced to you, would nicely improve the average grasp of logic round here.
You will probably need to demonstrate it on EVE forum for the full effect. The idea that "just because only one dev was caught only means they are trying to cover up for other devs cheating for BoB" (and curiously enough, for no one else) isn't actually mine.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Sparky on February 15, 2007, 03:52:13 PM
The one thing that bugs me about devs playing "competitively" is that I know the amount of time that has to be put in, and the addictions involved, to play "competitively" at the level where you're involved in leading or organizing an alliance.

Yeah that's why I think they shouldn't be in 0.0 alliance leadership positions.  It's pretty much impossible not to become emotionally involved when you have to catass that much.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 15, 2007, 04:16:21 PM
Quick Explanation of 0.0 ?  I am Ignorant.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Kamen on February 15, 2007, 04:22:44 PM
Quick Explanation of 0.0 ?  I am Ignorant.


0.0 systems - Anything goes.

Low security systems (0.1 - 0.4) - PvP very possible, but some limited protection for carebears.

High security systems - PvP only possible if at war, you're willing to commit suicide, or the other guy does something very dumb.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Morat20 on February 15, 2007, 04:24:51 PM
Quick Explanation of 0.0 ?  I am Ignorant.
UO: Pre-Trammel.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 15, 2007, 04:25:16 PM
Then I agree with those who even mentioned the phrase 0.0.

 :wink:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on February 15, 2007, 04:28:49 PM
Eh?

0.0 : The areas of space around the empire regions (empire is at the center of the map), characterized by:

- no security standing loss if you shoot other players (FFA PVP)
- overall lack of NPC stations, thus creating the need for player-created structures, which have to be defended, so that your people can dock, repair, refit, etc.
- ability to "claim sovereignty" by filling each system in a region with said player-created starbases and/or camping the entry points so that no one can get in
- due to the low numbers of players in those systems (relative to empire), any movement of fleets / groups appears on the map (+/- half an hour delay), so it's easy to see an invasion unless they're sneaky about it
- the only place where some of these super-sized capital ships are allowed to fly
- "best" PVE resources (best asteroids, best NPC's) are generally in 0.0, though not everywhere in 0.0

"Empire" is where most of the PvE game takes place due to the fact that NPC stations (equivalent of cities in other MMOG's) are abundant, and because PvP is restricted.  0.0 is pretty much the FFA PvP area, and whole chunks of it are claimed by various alliances, and they fight over the territory and stuff.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yegolev on February 15, 2007, 04:47:39 PM
It's not so much that PvP is restricted in high-security space, it's that the cops (CONCORD) will vaporize your ship if you initiate hostilities.  This is very important to note if you are somehow under the impression that you can't be shot at in empire space.  It is "safe" insofar as you only have to survive long enough for the fuzz to show up and take down whoever is shooting at you.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 15, 2007, 04:52:00 PM
It's not so much that PvP is restricted in high-security space, it's that the cops (CONCORD) will vaporize your ship if you initiate hostilities.  This is very important to note if you are somehow under the impression that you can't be shot at in empire space.  It is "safe" insofar as you only have to survive long enough for the fuzz to show up and take down whoever is shooting at you.
Which, in .9 and 1.0 space, is "really fucking quick". However, if you know what you're doing -- you can vaporize a ship before CONCORD kills you, and then have a buddy loot it's wreck. It's why even .9 and 1.0 space isn't totally safe to fly in with valuable enough cargo.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 15, 2007, 05:00:05 PM
Note that even carebear-friendly empire space can become FFA. Two alliances or corps (simply a difference in scale) can declare war on each other, allowing FFA PVP anywhere at any time with no interference, as long as combat involves those two groups.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 15, 2007, 05:15:38 PM
Note that even carebear-friendly empire space can become FFA. Two alliances or corps (simply a difference in scale) can declare war on each other, allowing FFA PVP anywhere at any time with no interference, as long as combat involves those two groups.
Speaking of, whatever happened to the corp that wardecced F13?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 15, 2007, 05:51:46 PM
Note that even carebear-friendly empire space can become FFA. Two alliances or corps (simply a difference in scale) can declare war on each other, allowing FFA PVP anywhere at any time with no interference, as long as combat involves those two groups.
Speaking of, whatever happened to the corp that wardecced F13?

We're still wardecced. I have one report of them shooting at us and failing to accomplish anything. Not even a ship kill.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on February 15, 2007, 06:02:41 PM
Note that even carebear-friendly empire space can become FFA. Two alliances or corps (simply a difference in scale) can declare war on each other, allowing FFA PVP anywhere at any time with no interference, as long as combat involves those two groups.
Speaking of, whatever happened to the corp that wardecced F13?

We're still wardecced. I have one report of them shooting at us and failing to accomplish anything. Not even a ship kill.
Well, I suppose if one were to get wardecced, getting wardecced by morons would be the best you could hope for.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Soln on February 15, 2007, 07:15:19 PM
Empire Space won't protect you if people really want to get you and stay on you till you log.  Suicide alts, small frigates.... imagine that youtube of the gnome raid on Hogger.  Same thing, fewer numbers, less fun, and you're Hogger.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Morat20 on February 16, 2007, 11:51:16 AM
Empire Space won't protect you if people really want to get you and stay on you till you log.  Suicide alts, small frigates.... imagine that youtube of the gnome raid on Hogger.  Same thing, fewer numbers, less fun, and you're Hogger.
Ah. Our guild used to do level 1 raids on Hogger. Also, we did Hogger right after the first time we downed Rags. Then we assaulted the crossroads and got our asses handed to us thoroughly. (Out of a raid of 40, about 5 of us had ever PvPed. We had to get three of the players half drunk before they'd do it. Big PvP mental blocks for some people).

Frankly, I find that weird-ass "What can we think up" stuff the funnest. 10-mage WSG runs, Gnome hogger runs, footraces -- it's fun to see what you can set up.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Chenghiz on February 17, 2007, 01:44:38 PM
We tried to do a naked footrace around Ironforge once. Entry was 1g, first person around got the pot. Unfortunately the Alliance didn't think it was very funny.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Raging Turtle on February 17, 2007, 03:53:17 PM
I'm done.  Not so much because of all the stupid drama (but that's a part of it), but because I haven't really felt compelled in log in and DO anything for a month. 

Another month till my three-month sub runs out for both accounts.  I guess I can look forward to flying hulks and command ships if I ever come back. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Margalis on February 19, 2007, 01:48:41 AM
Simple solution: allow devs to play and have whatever positions they want, just force them to be indentified as devs.

Edit: Why do I keep seeing people say that the main bad guy here might be unfireable? Nobody at a company is unfireable.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 19, 2007, 03:11:44 AM
I think that redefines 'Allow Them To Play'.

Were I a Dev and was forced to abandon my anonymity, I'd not play.

That being said, I am gobsmacked that someone can 'play' their job in their out of hours time.  My personal time is too valuable to be cluttered up with work shite, even if it's a game...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Merusk on February 19, 2007, 06:22:37 AM
Edit: Why do I keep seeing people say that the main bad guy here might be unfireable? Nobody at a company is unfireable.

If I understand things right, the offending dev is one of the original 3-5 guys who started CCP.  So not only does he own part of the company, he's good friends with the folks who'd have to fire him.  You're right, not technically unfireable, but the scenario that it would require for him to be fired is so unlikely it's not going to happen.

 Not to mention the tinfoil hat part that probably 'knows things'  that would come to light should he be booted.  i.e. other instances of more aggregious cheating, string-pulling, etc. 

I had my own tinfoil hat theory the other day, too.  That this cheating was intentional and intentionally copped to/ leaked to get more folks angry against BoB.  They are too close to  'winning' the game, a death-knell for a PvP game.  Something needed to stir-up the hornets nest, and voila, it did. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 19, 2007, 06:25:49 AM
Nah.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Merusk on February 19, 2007, 06:27:18 AM
Nah.

Of course not, thus why I labeled it tinfoil hat to start with.

 It came from that small portion of me that still believes in the basic good of humanity.  I tried to kill it but it's so small I just can't hit it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Morat20 on February 19, 2007, 12:18:17 PM
Simple solution: allow devs to play and have whatever positions they want, just force them to be indentified as devs.

Edit: Why do I keep seeing people say that the main bad guy here might be unfireable? Nobody at a company is unfireable.
Some of the oldest Devs are part-owners of the company. And not in that "I own 1000 shares of stock which amounts to .0000001% of all shares way". Like "I own 10% or more of the company" way.

Fireing them would be difficult, and they'd still own a fucking chunk of the company -- which isn't even a public company, as far as I know, so that's probably even more of a complication. (Lord knows how Iceland handles companies...).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on February 19, 2007, 03:08:23 PM
I believe he's also an engineer or otherwise in a technical position. Firing senior technical staff is often extremely difficult because it's likely that he has extremely intimate knowledge of many of CCP's technologies, and therefore is almost integral to day-to-day engineering - as a source of mentoring and knowledge if nothing else.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on February 19, 2007, 03:54:21 PM
And they'd have to change passwords and stuff...

 :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on March 01, 2007, 04:37:21 PM
Dramabomb, part whatever. (http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=363) (Link to Kugutsumen's board)

Allegedly, The Enslaver (LV/Shinra leader & Titan pilot) is GM Sunshine (known for hanging around in LV space and trying to ban Goons for fofofo-ing). Incidentally, The Enslaver all-but-quit playing in mid-late January...about when the t20 shit started hitting the fan.

Oh, and (what's left of) LV is allied with BoB.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on March 01, 2007, 04:53:05 PM
For those who don't remember the name GM Sunshine, he's the dude from the log where he demands Remedial prevent anyone from typing 'fofofo' in local after a battle as opposed to, you know, gagging them or something.

And then he more or less threatens to ban Remedial ("your actions will affect future decisions") if Goonfleet doesn't comply ("we would like you to stop this this instant").

 :roll:

However, speculation has changed: he may instead be GM Zhanius (based on employment times and behavior), while GM Sunshine may be someone else in LV.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Miasma on March 01, 2007, 05:18:15 PM
I feel like I should be paying something since I am receiving so much enjoyment from these EvE drama bombs even though I don't play the game.

I imagine this won't be as dramarific since anyone still playing after the t20 stuff is apparently just fine with CCP employees cheating, taking over territory and destroying those who oppose them.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on March 01, 2007, 05:19:45 PM
Who is the Enslaver again? I know the name, but I do not remember why.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Ratadm on March 01, 2007, 05:51:37 PM
A high up leader in LV.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: TheDreamr on March 01, 2007, 05:54:12 PM
I imagine this won't be as dramarific since anyone still playing after the t20 stuff is apparently just fine with CCP employees cheating, taking over territory and destroying those who oppose them.

Over simplified a little, but you're right about the customers staying if they haven't already quit.

Ultimately CCP staff playing the game is a good thing, but you have to wonder how much drama (or more accurately bad press) needs to occur before CCP is forced to limit their staff to playing "everyday" roles rather than the high-profile roles which they seem to gravitate towards.



If you're looking for account cancellation type drama you wont find it here unless something major drops ... my prediction for that kind of drama is when they push mission content into low-sec and then proclaim they made low-sec "safer".  Someone's going home in tears and it's either going to be the mission runners with expensive cap ships, or it's going to be the pirates getting nerfed harder.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Endie on March 02, 2007, 03:21:45 AM
A high up leader in LV.

And titan pilot  :-o


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on March 02, 2007, 09:02:54 AM
So, is there anyone flying a titan who doesn't work for CCP?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on March 02, 2007, 10:04:35 AM
I very much doubt Evil Thug works for CCP.  :evil:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: ajax34i on March 02, 2007, 10:31:02 AM
So, is there anyone flying a titan who doesn't work for CCP?

There probably are a few pilots, and more will train, but it's very likely that the first few Titan pilots were CCP, because you kinda need to know in advance what the prerequisites for the skill are, in order to beat the masses.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Endie on March 02, 2007, 10:52:51 AM
So, is there anyone flying a titan who doesn't work for CCP?

Why, there are plenty in LV alone!  Surely all the LV members sharing Chowdown's account against the terms of the EULA (http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=369) can't all be employed by CCP?  :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: JoeTF on March 02, 2007, 11:18:36 AM
Enslaver became junor GM on January the fired. At that time he also resigned from all of his leadership duties in LV and offered to kill the account completely (which would be a shame).

I knew him during CA times and he is a really good chap. For all the mining he has done in his career, he probably bought that titan himself:D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: ajax34i on March 02, 2007, 12:11:02 PM
At that time he also resigned from all of his leadership duties in LV and offered to kill the account completely (which would be a shame).

Well if he resigned and isn't in LV anymore, what's the point of keeping the account open?  So others can share / get access to it?  I understand it "would be a shame" to lose all those skillpoints, but characters get banned/lost all the time, and right now all these "it's such a shame" statements give the appearance that CCP cares more about their skillpoints and progress within the game than the health of the game itself or the perceptions of its entire playerbase.  I dunno, maybe it's just me, I've trashed 15mil SP characters and restarted without a second thought in the past, but to me they just seem more addicted to playing the stupid game than I'd consider normal.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Miasma on March 02, 2007, 12:51:52 PM
At that time he also resigned from all of his leadership duties in LV and offered to kill the account completely (which would be a shame).
So does that mean that somewhere in 0.0 there is a solitary Titan floating around without a corp mining asteroids, because I think that would be "splendid".


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on March 02, 2007, 05:18:34 PM
January the fired?  Can I skip work that day?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Mitrediabolo on March 02, 2007, 08:56:23 PM
Apparently it may not be GM sunshine but another GM forgot the name.





Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Endie on March 03, 2007, 03:20:11 AM
At that time he also resigned from all of his leadership duties in LV and offered to kill the account completely (which would be a shame).
So does that mean that somewhere in 0.0 there is a solitary Titan floating around without a corp mining asteroids, because I think that would be "splendid".

Nah, Kugutsemen revealed a post from the LV forums where it was made plain that Chowdown's account is used to pilot their titan, and that others share his account details to fly it when he is unavailable.  EULA-busting, but CCP would never dare do anything even if they were so inclined.

Edit: "Plane" is not "plain".


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on March 03, 2007, 07:36:49 AM
At that time he also resigned from all of his leadership duties in LV and offered to kill the account completely (which would be a shame).

Well if he resigned and isn't in LV anymore, what's the point of keeping the account open?  So others can share / get access to it?
Perhaps so he could keep training skills on it, keep in touch with friends and get back to playing it eventually, if/when his work at CCP ends? 3 year old characters that have part in EVE history as alliance leaders etc aren't really that common.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Jamiko on March 03, 2007, 08:37:37 PM
I think it is odd that people get so upset about "losing" all those skill points. Can't CCP just rename the character, change the portrait, and revise the employment history? I'd be shocked if they couldn't.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on March 03, 2007, 11:26:57 PM
I think it is odd that people get so upset about "losing" all those skill points. Can't CCP just rename the character, change the portrait, and revise the employment history? I'd be shocked if they couldn't.
This is exactly what CCP does. People aren't upset about losing skillpoints, what they lose is the contact with friends they've possibly played with for years (because it's rather easy to figure out the person's identity on TS so the new cover would get blown quick) and the ability of their established character to be still part of the game events and history.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: TripleDES on March 04, 2007, 08:04:41 AM
Enslaver became junor GM on January the fired. At that time he also resigned from all of his leadership duties in LV and offered to kill the account completely (which would be a shame).
He's been seen very recently on the LV teamspeak rallying and organizing teams to attack.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on March 04, 2007, 09:22:24 AM
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=485327&page=5#140
Quote
I'm gonna tell you, what they dont want you to know...
But you deserve to know...

This is a tale of a BoB NYX class mothership in Molden Heath, The Mothership that today no longer roams there, the pilot that no longer has a job, or the ability to do what he did just 2 weeks ago in Molden Heath region which left everyone baffled. Thank you Kieron and CCP Internal Affairs for working so quickly to take note of the situation, I just wish the IA was there 2 months ago in Feythabolis. (NOTE: We know the identity of other CCP employees that plays the game and even though in-game they may be our mortal enemy, they choose to play the game honestly, outing their identity puts their character(s) in jeopardy according to CCP regulations which we think is a whack without a reason to do for us, but know this, we are watching you closely, dont slip).

Interesting.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on March 04, 2007, 12:28:46 PM
Can someone translate that quote from Nettard to English?  :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on March 04, 2007, 03:28:46 PM
A member of BoB was piloting a Nyx, and doing funny stuff with it (current rumour - covops cloak on it). The player is banned, and someone at CCP lost their job due to the actions of their Internal Affairs division.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on March 04, 2007, 04:23:38 PM
Are the two incidents confirmed to be related or are we just connecting the dots?


Wonder how many cheats there really are in this game :(


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: WindupAtheist on March 04, 2007, 05:22:49 PM
Were I in charge, I'd have loudly and publicly prohibited staff from playing the game, and then fired the shit out of anyone who didn't comply.  Sure GM Schlomo will miss pwning noobs with his guild buddies.  Fuck him, he works for me now.  He can quit if he doesn't like it.

Yeah, developers should have the insight into their game which comes from playing it.  Worry about that shit later, when things have calmed down and your credibility isn't going up in fucking flames right before your eyes.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on March 04, 2007, 05:52:26 PM
Are the two incidents confirmed to be related or are we just connecting the dots?
If I read right what's posted on other board, the pilot in question was in BoB recently for couple weeks. He was kicked from BoB corp because he'd rather continue his usual doings (pirating on his own in his personal mothership and scamming people) rather than participate in current BoB vs Everyone conflict.

The identity of the pilot had been previously connected to a CCP employee. When petitioned to CCP's internal affairs division, the person in question chose to quit the work at the company rather than have his exposed character undergo the usual rename etc treatment. Quite idiotic. so perhaps the game is better for everyone this way.

Of course CAOD section of EVE-O forums being the usual political cesspit, you'll have people focus first and foremost on the fact the moron in question was briefly allowed into BoB corp, so then they can mysteriously allude to said events in way that puts the in-game enemy in the worst possible light for these without knowledge what exactly it's all about.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Trippy on March 04, 2007, 06:00:22 PM
Quote
I'm gonna tell you, what they dont want you to know...
But you deserve to know...

This is a tale of a BoB NYX class mothership in Molden Heath, The Mothership that today no longer roams there, the pilot that no longer has a job, or the ability to do what he did just 2 weeks ago in Molden Heath region which left everyone baffled. Thank you Kieron and CCP Internal Affairs for working so quickly to take note of the situation, I just wish the IA was there 2 months ago in Feythabolis. (NOTE: We know the identity of other CCP employees that plays the game and even though in-game they may be our mortal enemy, they choose to play the game honestly, outing their identity puts their character(s) in jeopardy according to CCP regulations which we think is a whack without a reason to do for us, but know this, we are watching you closely, dont slip).
More reasons why CCP's developer identities policy is idiotic -- they are vulnerable to blackmail attempts and knowledge of their identities can be used to alter the game balance even when they aren't doing anything wrong gameplay-wise.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Evangolis on March 04, 2007, 06:45:57 PM
Hmmm, I believe that this is the second time that WindUpAtheist has said something I agree with.  Mark your calenders.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Ratadm on March 04, 2007, 07:36:53 PM
I remember hearing about that pilot a couple weeks back from the sounds of it then he was blatantly doing something illegal at the time. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: JoeTF on March 05, 2007, 03:30:14 AM
Theyt shouldn't be able to take important roles in guilds/allainces/market.
Want to be pvp grunt, or regular mission runner - be my guest and maybe you'll realize how much lag and crappy loot sucks for vast majority of population.
On the other side, devs shouldn't give a shit about those weak blackmail attempts. If I would be them, I would pre-ban the idiot who tries it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Trippy on March 05, 2007, 03:53:22 AM
Theyt shouldn't be able to take important roles in guilds/allainces/market.
Want to be pvp grunt, or regular mission runner - be my guest and maybe you'll realize how much lag and crappy loot sucks for vast majority of population.
On the other side, devs shouldn't give a shit about those weak blackmail attempts. If I would be them, I would pre-ban the idiot who tries it.
That doesn't protect the dev since the blackmailer(s) can still make it public which character the dev is playing which means bye bye dev character.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Comstar on March 11, 2007, 04:46:09 AM
Another Dramabomb

This is from Krugmans, evil hackers website, as  posted to the Goonfleet public thread (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2362806&perpage=40&pagenumber=18).

The head of CCP's Events Team was yet another member of BoB, this time in Evolution (at the top, there are many quotes from BoB saying no GM's are in with them).

Some of the quotes below are K's, some the Goonfleeter(?) who posted it. It's a bit confusing. Apologies for the multiple quouting, and the length.

-----------------------
Quote
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=424 (LINK TO HACKER-OWNED SITE, DO NOT CLICK IF PARANOID)

    quote:

    Last week I outed Enslaver, and I posted about why I did this. A lot of you had a problem with how he was innocent and so forth, and there were many accusations of dramawhoring and being BoB alts, depending on which side of the conflict you are on. But the key point is this: nobody is innocent here. I have made mistakes, done things I shouldn't have (jokingly ask for a mothership/titan from BoB is one of them), and I can own up to that. Everyone with information and power eventually misuses it, either consciously or by accident, and that's just a part of human nature.

    The specific reason I outed Enslaver was to test if Arkanon was up to his task, and he was not. But the reason I out GMs is because the game is rigged, and I intend to either unrig it little by little, or inform every single participant of where and how the game is rigged.

    Gentlemen, allow me to introduce Nebulai, head of ISD and member of Evolution.
    http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...threadID=73945

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by oldneb
        Hello Everyone,

        Allow me to introduce myself - I'm Nebulai and I am the new Lead Events Producer for EVE.

        Firstly I would like to wish Hobbes the best in whatever he chooses to do now, his effort and contributions to Aurora have been appreciated by all and he will be missed.

        A little about myself - I was involved with the creation of the Aurora events team from its birth in the beta phases of EVE and stayed with it up until last year.

        As with all changes in an environment, especially in terms of leadership things become unsettled. I would ask everyone to bear with us during this time of change and things will improve shortly.

        We have some improvements on the way for Aurora, and events in general within EVE Once i've settled down a little another post will be forthcoming with more details - until then see you later!



        Nebulai
        Lead Events Producer
        The Aurora Project

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Kieron
        Welcome aboard! Lots of interesting things are expected in the future from you and your team!



        kieron
        Community Manager,
        EVE Online

    http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...5000&page=1#20

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by oldneb
        All events performed (be them by CCP, or the events team) are intended to provide as wider sphere of participation over the player base as possible, however as I'm sure you will agree, 100 simultanous events cannot be run at the same time. To counter this, events are run on a continuing cycle, one may happen in system A at first, and then system B at a later date.

        If you have any further questions relating to Events, I will be happy to answer them for you, however please lets keep the trolling, or the wild accusations out of this as it leads to a degredation in thread content.

        Kind Regards,

        Nebulai
        Senior Events Producer
        The Aurora Project
        Polaris

    Let's put this in perspective:

    http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...47466&page=1#2

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Sir Molle
        After having being called exploiters and cheaters and god knows what else, I have stated a request to the GM staff, which they have granted.

        I hope this is the final word on it.

        These are questions that will be answered by the Senior GM;


        1. Does Evolution have any DEV or GM in the corporation?

        2. Have any Evolution ever been found guilty of a cheat or a exploit?

        3. Have any Evolution ever recieved a warning about using a cheat or a exploit?

        4. Have any Evolution ever been banned, temporary, or permanently?

        Evolution have *always* prided itself in that we never cheat nor exploit, our standards are high.

        If any Evolution were to be found exploiting or cheating they would be kicked out in a heartbeat.


        Sincerely,

        SirMolle, CEO Evolution

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by GM Ender
        Senior Game Master Ender here.

        I wish to express that I am merely stating facts here, not expressing any particular view, either positive or negative about Evolution or the way they play.


        To answer the questions that have been posed.

        1) Evolution does not have any Devs or GMs in the corporation.

        2) To the best of my knowledge, no member of Evolution has been found guilty of a cheat or an exploit.

        3) As far as I can tell (120 members after all), no Evolution members have ever received warnings about using cheats/exploits.

        4) No Evolution members have been banned, temporarily or permanently.
        There has never been a good reason to believe anything CCP representatives say. Even more so, if they are talking about Band of Developers. One need only read up on the T20 incident to verify that. Well, to GM Ender's credit, he did say that in 2003. Perhaps Molle and BoB didn't start cheating until after that post.

    http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...46807&page=1#5

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by M Hoshi
        Ono you caught us! Yes the entire player base of Evolution is full of GM's who have nothing better to do than cheat , sploit, make our ships uber armour and oh yeah, spawn magical never seen before modules to pwn you with ...

        Gees, come up with something better o-0

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by M Hoshi
        First we're exploiters, then we're all gm's, and now we're exploiters again, weeee...


        And Ywev, I know you love me really.

    http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...D=38375&page=3

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by M Hoshi
        You know your doing well in a game, when the people you are fighting against start posting frankly crap posts in an attempt to spread rumours in an attempt to undermine you - in a place they feel safe (forums?).

        Please, by all means continue my friend, as long as *I* know that myself, or anyone else in evolution doesn't purposefully exploit, I couldn't relaly give a rats arse about what some person with more bark than bite says.


        And on the note of this said GM 'informing you', Interesting indeed, consider this. Discussions between players and GM's are confidential, and in that respect conversations, or even those believed to be expoited would not be discussed with players - Come on, can't you think of anything else?

        But who's M Hoshi???

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by james_
        In Game Names:

        M Hoshi
        Research Biatch
        Lovemuffin

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by james_

        Dear Mr GM
        Hello,

        I would like the opinion of a senior GM on this tactic which I think is down right cowardly

        Take for example, the newly created corp 'RUS Elite', which is an alt corp designed specifically for Creating an empire space war on Evolution (and two other corps - EV and techell I *think*).

        Now, don't get me wrong - I'm all for empire space wars (we have several active) - however I find the concept that they can freely switch between RUS (to be safe from us in empire) and RUS Elite (when they want to fight) is cowardly, and possibly against the way the designers intend the game to be played.

        I mean, they are basically getting the advantages of an empire space war, with none of the disadvantages. They can hit our non-pvp pilots in empire, however we can't hit theirs?

        Could you comment on this and give me your insight?

        Regards,

        James Wilkins
        Shiva access for Evol
Quote

       
Quote
Quote:
        Freelance Forums > Evolution > Shiva access for you
        PDA

        james_
        10-05-2004, 12:57
        http://myeve.eve-online.com/shiva.asp

        Of you go, enjoy.

        voodoo
        10-05-2004, 13:28
        yee haa
        Lan2
        10-05-2004, 13:59
        Managed to hit it.

        Shiva Status for user *******
        pending
        requested on:
        2004.10.04 23:45:00
        Fear
        10-05-2004, 14:48
        Shiva Status for user Panzerxii
        access granted
        requested on:
        2004.10.05 00:35:00
        dew
        10-05-2004, 17:39
        Shiva Status for user Panzerxii
        access granted
        requested on:
        2004.10.05 00:35:00


        wtf, i make a request 5 mins after you and im still pending

        Shiva Status for user carnstickpendingrequested on:
        2004.10.05 00:40:00

        hurts my feelings.
        Lan2
        10-05-2004, 17:48
        wtf, i make a request 5 mins after you and im still pending

        Shiva Status for user carnstickpendingrequested on:
        2004.10.05 00:40:00

        hurts my feelings.

        And I made mine nearly an hour brefore his and still pending...


        ***edit****

        Channel "Shiva"
        Super Schecter > I guess they are letting people on already
        Lan2 > well actually, the website still said pending...
        Lan2 > but I could log in... :/
        Lan2 > hope thats ok
        Super Schecter > hmm
        Super Schecter > yeah that's ok
        Lan2 > so, am I the first then?
        Super Schecter > First regular? I believe so, I haven't seen anyone else since now.

        yea, 1st in baby.
        (and my status is still "pending")

        Shiva looks awsome, unfortunally I couldn't spend much time in it, need to cram for an exam and get some sleep.


        The mirror is from 7-28-2004 (looked the the corp wallet for the last date in it) So its a bit old... edit: might be different actually, I've got different dates in my wallets... its a few weeks old at least though.
        RinnyWee
        10-05-2004, 19:37
        Hmmm, prepare for job interview or check out Shiva? Okay, I'll have a wee peek.
        Fear
        10-05-2004, 23:24
        <-- evil I like editing things
        bubbles
        10-06-2004, 03:52
        we lub j00 nebs

        Luc Boye
        10-06-2004, 04:36
        w00t I'm in
        Drunkenmaster
        10-06-2004, 04:57
        My account is active. Now I just gotta get the gently caress out of this office and get on the motherfucker.
        Reiisha
        10-06-2004, 08:35
        requested on:
        2004.10.05 01:08:00

        Activated on:
        2004.10.05 16:04:00

        weeeeeee
        Fear
        10-06-2004, 08:56
        oops i lied again

        Shiva Status for user Panzerxiiactiverequested on:
        2004.10.05 00:35:00

        Activated on:
        2004.10.05 16:03:00
        g45123
        10-06-2004, 16:19
        I'm in, but I didn't see much. I got stuck in free space while in autopilot, and now I can't do anything.
        It reminds me the first days in beta

        Don't worry if you are not yet in, nothing fantastic is happening for now. It will be better in a few days.
        Sorte Slyngel
        10-06-2004, 22:33
        activerequested on:
        2004.10.05 08:07:00

        Activated on:
        2004.10.06 09:08:00

        \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ <o> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
        Leitari
        10-06-2004, 22:35
        would be nice for the next director that gets on to fix hangar access, Im still a biotch on that server
        Faramir
        10-06-2004, 22:44
        would be nice for the next director that gets on to fix hangar access, Im still a biotch on that server

        Pending....

        UPDATE:
        activerequested on:
        2004.10.05 07:16:00

        Activated on:
        2004.10.06 09:07:00

        So wait till I'm home from work.
        voodoo
        10-06-2004, 23:29
        Im in
        Be really cool if we get like an armageddon day in shiva maybe a whole week of armageddon to really use everything. That would rock, no?

    CCP event / testing - EVOL only

        quote:

        Quote:
        Freelance Forums > Evolution > CCP event / testing - EVOL only
        PDA
        CCP event / testing - EVOL only

        Molle
        11-15-2004, 13:23
        Thursday 1900 evetime.

        Singularis testserver.

        We will get special accts, maxed out training, and all gear you can dream of.

        The objective is for POS attacks/defence, and a good training session for us.

        Estimated timeframe; 2 hours.

        Interested pilots, name yourselve here before wednesday.
        Bloodz
        11-15-2004, 13:24
        omfg javi's loving in!

        omfg that time's loving gay rofl.
        BlueVelvet
        11-15-2004, 13:24
        o/
        Griffin
        11-15-2004, 13:25
        ME ME ME
        EveJunkie
        11-15-2004, 13:25
        me me me me me me me me me me .. oh and me! (EveJunkie)
        Jakal
        11-15-2004, 13:26
        me, i will be there.
        fisho
        11-15-2004, 13:26
        MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMMEMEME....i will love you forever molle!!! choose me!!
        WildCard
        11-15-2004, 13:43
        whenever I have a chance to kill EVOL, i'm always in!
        fitz
        11-15-2004, 13:45
        Aye i'm in for that.
        Gwenny
        11-15-2004, 13:52
        i would like to be part of that action
        Anla Shok
        11-15-2004, 14:24
        \o/
        RinnyWee
        11-15-2004, 14:24
        Yep I'll be there.
        Venom SGZ
        11-15-2004, 14:26
        Me please :eTom:
        nonsequitur
        11-15-2004, 14:43
        Count me in too... I can participate.
        DraizeTraiN
        11-15-2004, 14:45
        Yep me pls.
        dew
        11-15-2004, 19:33
        Please count me in as well. Thank you.


        <3
        Thrak
        11-15-2004, 19:40
        jebus... lemme think about it :/

        Ok, I just looked still got shiva build installed.

        Man I feel naughty.
        Biz
        11-15-2004, 19:48
        moi
        Faramir
        11-15-2004, 19:49
        me (and genghis wants in too ;P)
        bubbles
        11-15-2004, 19:50
        me me me me me

        can i have a super g0at too?

        did i say ME
        Leitari
        11-15-2004, 19:50
        count me in
        dynaglide
        11-15-2004, 19:50
        im in, seems like a good reason to take off work
        ridock
        11-15-2004, 19:53
        I'll be working =\
        Drunkenmaster
        11-15-2004, 20:21
        Oh hell yes.
        Tosh
        11-15-2004, 20:30
        Uuuhh, party ???

        Count me in.
        Luc Boye
        11-15-2004, 20:30
        MEMEMEME
        Fear
        11-15-2004, 20:54
        mememe
        Ratking
        11-15-2004, 21:50
        It's prolly a trick to get as many as possible to strip mine, but i'm risking it.
        Šiscorporation
        11-15-2004, 21:52
        cry

        me?
        Sutts
        11-15-2004, 22:27
        sutty
        Pramas
        11-15-2004, 22:28
        Oo me me
        KoeShadowhawk
        11-15-2004, 22:33
        lets blow stuff up !
        EveJunkie
        11-15-2004, 22:48
        I think its time we scared the devs with our l337 POS pownage!

        Humm actually..that may be counter productive they'll use the data from our test to balance the POS and they'll be nigh on indestructable for thoese non-evol mortals.
        bubbles
        11-15-2004, 23:45
        i think thoose 10 tempests i have in yulai maybe be in use

        also plenty scimatars

        lets just out range em!

        can u say apoc with 300km optimal?
        Revolution
        11-16-2004, 00:34
        i be keen
        DArth Maul
        11-16-2004, 01:31
        Id like a piece of that action..
        Kamel
        11-16-2004, 01:33
        oh cool, an event what i can be in.

        I just need an imperial apoc + Luther Veron's Modified Tachyon Beam Laser + 2xVizan's Modified Heat Sink + 1xDraclira's Modified Large Armor Repairer and some Cormack's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane. k thnks im rdy to test watever you like now
        Lianhaun
        11-16-2004, 01:36
        Guess Disco will be playing instead of me :s
        You owe me now
        TWD
        11-16-2004, 02:18
        I'll be there
        FlatLiner
        11-16-2004, 02:23
        Count me in

        Flatliner.
        Dukath
        11-16-2004, 08:02
        dukkie wants to be in,

        Lets test lag with all my drones out
        dstroy
        11-16-2004, 09:14
        I'm game. Just have 8 hours work before that :P
        AsaR
        11-16-2004, 09:19
        poo poo 3 pages before i get in AsaR WANTS TO PLAY

        ASAR

        ASAR

        ASAR

        ASAR

        ASAR

        ASAR
        Šiscorporation
        11-16-2004, 11:08
        Long range pos defenses + Citadel Torpedoes = pwnz us

        Scimitars + Gankageddons + logistics = way to win
        Deathwing
        11-16-2004, 11:37
        gonna be a bit late prob from work
        but sign me up
        Sin X
        11-16-2004, 11:45
        I'm in (sin). \o/ that rocks :-D
        Quar
        11-16-2004, 12:42
        ill be stuck at work
        CptUnreal
        11-16-2004, 12:44
        I think I have Quar's Problem - bad timing....
        Ratking
        11-16-2004, 14:05
        So... You are a dev after all, Molle...
        Un1CroN
        11-16-2004, 14:36
        oooooh .0/ i be game for a taste of that =]
        Gordyc
        11-16-2004, 15:42
        Oropendia will go
        Arkaine
        11-16-2004, 18:54
        I guess i'll install eve for this
        voodoo
        11-16-2004, 20:27
        got time if i can be 30 min late -)
        Fattus
        11-16-2004, 21:17
        Sweet, I'm game.
        Zeus
        11-16-2004, 22:36
        Count me in :eTom:
        bubbles
        11-16-2004, 23:14
        did i say ME ME ME ?
        Molle
        11-17-2004, 12:35
        Thursday 1900.


        48 pilots signed up from EVOL.

        We will get a list of 50 accts to use, and i will distribute them (all superchars).

        Exact testing routing and what we need to do, will be announced, but, we will mostlikely be teh nasty attackers on a WELL setup POS and most likely there will be some NASTY devs there as well pwning us, so... prepare to die... lots.
        Šiscorporation
        11-17-2004, 12:51
        whee death
        Dukath
        11-17-2004, 12:52
        I'd say grab at LEAST one covert ops to scout it out well before the rest decides what ships to grab
        Šiscorporation
        11-17-2004, 13:03
        Imperial gankagedon :x
        ProphetGuru
        11-17-2004, 13:20
        I'll be at work ofc. I hereby request fraps and screenies.
        Šiscorporation
        11-17-2004, 13:29
        Fraps would be a good idea!
        Sin X
        11-17-2004, 14:21
        been having some issues with fraps lately but i will try and get some.
        Finitos
        11-17-2004, 15:18
        Dunno if im too late to yell i want in, but ill definatley be there tomorrow at 1900 :eTom:
        Thrak
        11-17-2004, 15:41
        48 Federate Megathrons with 7 T2 Neutrons, 1 T2 large armour transferrer each and T2 ammo :P

        all warping in 10 km from the first sentry gun... pop pop pop.
        Šiscorporation
        11-17-2004, 16:05
        - Take out the tower and you can shoot defenses w/o problems (not sure if they still fire)
        - Pop launchers first, they are spammy


        I'm not sure if it'd be more efficient to shoot the defenses first, or the guardian ships. We're almost sure to lose if they are using dampening scorps (coz they force you to get close, bringing you into Citadel range).
        Kamel
        11-17-2004, 16:27
        why not just set 1 bs with named long range guns and full of dam mod suported by 2 scorpions wirth traking enhancers so we can kill them at 200 km?
        Šiscorporation
        11-17-2004, 16:35
        coz they'll shoot you at 200 km.

        The large artillery turret has an 180km optimal range, if I read the Ev-I obj explorer correctly. With a damage mod of 90.

        0-o

        http://www.eve-i.com/home/crowley_de...rer.php?id=821

        ^ Shiva obj. explorer
        Blackblade
        11-17-2004, 22:08
        i will be there, if there is still room. :cheesy:
        Luc Boye
        11-17-2004, 22:34
        wtf dmg mod of 90? and Xlarge ammo?

        Ok, it has lock time like a BS, and sensor strength of 20, so cycle jam 2-3 of them?
        Šiscorporation
        11-17-2004, 22:40
        Can't be targeted, they're in the forcefield.

        You can only target the forcefield if it's active, nothig inside it
        Hackett
        11-18-2004, 09:28
        I may be able to make this one, if I dont get stuck at work again. Dont worry tho if no space.

        ME!
        DraizeTraiN
        11-18-2004, 10:24
        I think im gonna be forced to miss this due to patch crap bollox. My Shiva version is `stuck' on a build with no obvious linking patch to bring it up to date.
        I know I could scrap the whole thing and re-copy my TQ folder but I dont think i'm gonna have enough time from when I get home from work and the start of the testing session...

        AARRGGHHHHH!!!! I COULD loving THROTTLE SOME1 COS OF THIS!!!! *insert extreme anger/violence smilie*
        Ratking
        11-18-2004, 10:47
        Where to download the Shiva client? I get a:

        The stream could not be read, I said MORE Minmatar labour workers ... not LESS

        When accessing the Shiva testcenter.
        DraizeTraiN
        11-18-2004, 11:05
        http://www.eve-online.com/patches/testpatches.asp
        jim bond
        11-18-2004, 11:22
        Thursday 1900.


        48 pilots signed up from EVOL.

        We will get a list of 50 accts to use, and i will distribute them (all superchars).

        Exact testing routing and what we need to do, will be announced, but, we will mostlikely be teh nasty attackers on a WELL setup POS and most likely there will be some NASTY devs there as well pwning us, so... prepare to die... lots.

        At least ccp acknowledge the pawning power of Evolution
        Hackett
        11-18-2004, 11:38
        Ok. Lets for one minute pretend that I only know how to turn on my pc and launch eve and am not a total technophobe old git. So what do I do to load up this thingy?

        Just pretending of course...
        DraizeTraiN
        11-18-2004, 12:12
        Ok. Lets for one minute pretend that I only know how to turn on my pc and launch eve and am not a total technophobe old git. So what do I do to load up this thingy?
        Make a copy of ur EVE folder*, rename it Shiva or whatever u like. Create shortcut etc.

        *to speed up the process delete all the chat logs, screenies etc from within ur EVE folder before copying.

        Then patch up ur Shiva folder with the patches found here:-

        http://www.eve-online.com/patches/testpatches.asp

        ...this is where u will hit a brick wall, if i'm reading it right
        Hackett
        11-18-2004, 12:53
        Tnx m8

    Proof that James_ is Nebulai...

    Have you noticed bubble's reply to James offering exclusive Shiva access?

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by bubbles
        we lub j00 nebs

    Okay this is a bit weak proof, here is another quote:

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Lyrics
        Because I was over worked and had bosses that didnt really want me doing event stuff at all (wich eventualy resulted in me leaving the GM department) I soon started to delegate all this work to James_ who handled the job perfectly and soon after became a part of the event department.
        In 2003 when James first left the event team he actually signed his post on Evol as Neb. He came back to the event team in 2004 and not long after started giving all kinds of privileges to his buddies in Evol.

        quote:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by James_
        Bye and thanks for the fun
        Heya Guys,

        Many of you will know I recently left my volunteer position within EVE due to not agreeing with the naive-ness of CCP. This morning, I am told by the GM's that they have disabled my player account (dead/inactive can't be used), and they won't fix my player chars until I provide a CC number for them to charge for the account.

        This is just disgusting, and basically - I'm not going too. I might come back in a few months, who knows - but as it stands EVE = teh lovely for me.


        You guys have been great, all the way through beta and into release, don't think I've ever had so much fun with a group in an online game.

        Cya Around

        James / Neb.

    The following post got us really confused for a bit and at first we thought james was kieron.

    Account I gave to someone

        quote:

        Quote:
        James_
        04-06-2004, 19:21
        Someone.. I gave an account (username: kieron) in evolution, my gut feeling says ProphetGuru.. Could that person step forward and confirm it?

        I need to talk to you about this particular account.
        Šiscorporation
        04-06-2004, 20:34

        0-o

        ProphetGuru
        04-06-2004, 22:29

        It was me. I have however since given this account over to nons...... just to complicate matters

        james_
        04-06-2004, 22:32

        k then NONS?

        frstkor13
        04-06-2004, 23:00

        nons gave it to me, and i in turn gave it to bansh, who decided that wyakin needed to play eve with us as well.

        Shamrock
        04-07-2004, 00:01

        wow, we have a whore account going around ?

        WHEN DO I GET MY TURN?

        Lianhaun
        04-07-2004, 12:45

        I also want to play with kieron


        damnit, we actually have a CCP peron in our corp

        nonsequitur
        04-07-2004, 12:51

        I still have Kieron's old account, but it has Rikeon on it, and that represents a large investment of both mine and Prophets time and cash. (: so, is ye'ol kieron looking to get his namesake back? I'll hit you up in IRC asap.
        Click image for larger version Name: rikeon.PNG Views: 31 Size: 125.0 KB ID: 187

    Note: nonsequitur still plays Kieron's old alt as of today.

    Hey remember how bob was screaming about all the information was super old and from 2004? GUESS WHEN NEBULAI JOINED THE EVENT TEAM.


    James_ still has access as of today to the private section of the Evolution forums:
    http://www.eve-evol.com/forums/showgroups.php

tl;dr: Head of ISD, the "event GMs" of EVE, is in one of BoB's most influential corporations - Evolution. He's been giving BoB special treatment, giving them superchars on the test server - something NOBODY has access to - and the ability to have wargames with the developers and learn all of the tricks right from the developers themselves. Plus possible event botching/fixing, and god knows what. Might all be hot air, but judging from these logs, it looks like he's legit.

quote:

The following two emails are from ISD's internal email exchange.

Email dated March 6th, 2007:

    quote:

    Hi all,

    I would like to announce that Aporat is no longer with ISD.

    He was the subject of an investigation by CCP’s internal IA team and CCP have decided to remove him from ISD.

    Unfortunately I have no further details than this, so I’m unable to tell you anything further on this matter.

    I would like to add, I still consider Aporat a good friend and stand by him, so please don’t think any less of him.

    Kind Regards,

    Nebulai

Email dated March 8th, 2007:

    quote:

    Hi guys,

    I feel the time has come for me to step down as the VA of the events
    program. I’m no longer putting the effort into the program it either
    deserves or requires. I’m not happy to take a back seat in a position that
    requires someone who is motivated and willing to put in the effort. With
    recent transpires, both in my personal life and within EVE and ISD I need to
    refocus my time into other avenues that are less stressful.

    I feel I’ve done a lot for Aurora and I’m perfectly happy leaving it within
    Galen’s more than capable hands to lead Aurora onto the next stage of its
    development and furtherment within EVE.

    I thank you all, and CCP for the last few (4!) years and I hope my time and
    effort into the program has been recognised and appreciated. I’ve made many
    friends and I appreciate everything you’ve done - I wish you all the best
    for the future. Please pass on my thanks to the people at CCP that have put
    up with myself even during my irate times and helped further the goals of
    Aurora, these include Nathan, Gauti, Ginger, Wrangler and of course yourself
    Kieron.

    With your blessings, I will leave the volunteer within four weeks (being 8th
    April), allowing ample time for loose ends to be wrapped up.

    Galen – you’ve been a great co-lead to the team, you know you have my
    eternal thanks and I’m sure you’ll do wonderful things with the team. You
    have my utmost faith your right for the job.

    Kind Regards,

    Neb.

There exists the possibility that Nebulai quit before CCP discovered his involvement in EVOL so he could avoid being found out, yet was too late to actually avoid this.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on March 11, 2007, 04:51:33 AM
More info from Kugutsumen on dev impropriety: [Edit by Trippy: LINK TO HACKER-OWNED SITE, DO NOT CLICK IF PARANOID ] http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=424 (http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=424).

It's lengthy and tricky to follow, but it seems to boil down to CCP's head of the event GMs being in Evolution; their membership knowing for the last 3 years that he was a GM (after he dramaposted about leaving the events team for a while); him arranging to get them privileged access to events (test event on server: 48 out of 50 invites went to Evolution members, which is SirMolle's Bob corp) with early access to new techs and gameplay; substantial EULA-breaking account sharing (one was passed between about 6 people on their forums and so on.

As far as I understand, it's not quite at the t20 level, just a general, tawdry continuance of the corruption we've seen so much of from CCP staff.  At least the post ends with the Internal Affairs team firing one GM and the subject of the post apparently jumping (3 days ago) before he could be pushed.

Edit: oops, beaten to it.  But at least mine was the Janet and John summary  :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Trippy on March 11, 2007, 05:19:09 AM
Working as intended.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on March 11, 2007, 05:47:49 AM
Well, at least we know why BoB and their serfs felt so confident even after t20 - they still had (have?) pet devs breaking the rules for them.  :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on March 11, 2007, 06:35:39 AM
Quote
    Last week I outed Enslaver, and I posted about why I did this. A lot of you had a problem with how he was innocent and so forth, and there were many accusations of dramawhoring and being BoB alts, depending on which side of the conflict you are on. But the key point is this: nobody is innocent here. I have made mistakes, done things I shouldn't have (jokingly ask for a mothership/titan from BoB is one of them), and I can own up to that. Everyone with information and power eventually misuses it, either consciously or by accident, and that's just a part of human nature.

    The specific reason I outed Enslaver was to test if Arkanon was up to his task, and he was not.
What sort of bullshit is that. "I outed out GM who did nothing wrong to test if Internal Affairs were up to task". What sort of a "test" was it if the person in question didn't do anything bad? If the guy was expecting to have the outed GM fired because "everyone with information and power eventually misuses it" then he's a loon.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 11, 2007, 01:27:32 PM
I'm not sure what the scandal is supposed to be on this one.  We're talking about stuff from 2004, for starters, and a bunch of event debugging that occurred on the test server, with someone who wasn't a CCP employee but a volunteer.  Cheap/free stuff, PvP against developers, bonus skills, these are all things that happen routinely on the test server.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on March 11, 2007, 01:32:53 PM
Quote from: The thread
The specific reason I outed Enslaver was to test if Arkanon was up to his task, and he was not. But the reason I out GMs is because the game is rigged, and I intend to either unrig it little by little, or inform every single participant of where and how the game is rigged.

No, at this point, I think he's just attention-whoring.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Kitsune on March 11, 2007, 03:12:02 PM
Holy Christ.  If developers want to play the game so badly, they should be doing so in an NPC-ish role.  Let them play as representatives of the big governments, that way they can be as uber powerful as they want without fucking up the landscape of the corp vs. corp conflict.  So long as they're put in a position where they're neutral in that fight, I see nothing wrong with the developers cruising around in carriers and blowing the hell out of 'law breakers' that they come across.  It could make sector security interestingly more dynamic if one had to keep a lookout for dev-piloted patrols floating around with massive firepower.  Or, if a corp thinks they're badass enough, let them try to tackle one of those dev ships, use 'em as raid bosses of a sort.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Arthur_Parker on March 11, 2007, 05:35:12 PM
No, at this point, I think he's just attention-whoring.

CCP banned his accounts and tried a cover up when a dev (not a gm) a dev actually was cheating, the cover up didn't work and it all came out anyway.  CCP then refused to unban his accounts so he stated he would "out" members of CCP and their pet corps on a monthly basis.  There's no doubt he's a hacking prick but he's just doing what he said he would.

The fact that a lot of people assume the discovered people are cheating, is because in the first case they were and more importantly CCP intentionally covered it up, he's just playing on that because he's bitter.  Normally I'd consider him trash but at the minute he's forcing them to be honest in fear of bad press, I have no doubt they are as bitter towards him as he is to them.  They removed his characters from the game so he's doing the same to some of them, the situation looks balanced to me.

edit typo


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on March 11, 2007, 05:35:39 PM
Well, there's this. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=291810&page=1)
Last year, ISD ran an event involving a Serpentis invasion of BoB-space. The NPC dreads, when killed, dropped officer loot. (This was also when CCP added NPC stations into BoB regions...for no apparent reason). Other, similar events run elsewhere have the NPC ships dropping T1 or named T1 at best.

So:
Head of the GM staff in BoB, & BoB know about it.
BoB get to play around with POS warfare on Test ahead of everyone else and discover quirks/exploits (e.g. the "shooting through POS shields with no password" thing) which remain a mystery to the rest of the playerbase for years.
Lead GM all-but-spawning top-end loot for BoB.
Account sharing involving CCP staff & volunteer accounts, in direct contravention of their own EULA.

...and that's only the things that we know about, ignoring any other undiscovered little anomalies, biased board moderation, and so on.


Bearing in mind that one person has been fired and one has quit already over this, I'd say that this was a more valid concern than the GM Enslaver spat.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on March 12, 2007, 04:18:59 AM
This whole thread is unbelievable, from start to finish.

Jesus Christ, why would they do this nonsense ?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on March 12, 2007, 08:27:49 AM
Jesus Christ, why would they do this nonsense ?

I firmly believe that they are actually addicted to playing the game and their characters, much like regular players would be.  It's like a pen and paper campaign where the DM also has a player character, and he likes playing the character more than he likes DM'ing.  Whatcha gonna do?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Soln on March 12, 2007, 08:49:29 AM
I firmly believe the CCP staff involved are just immature and unprofessional.  That seems to be a meme in their corporate culture.

But not knowing any better is a not an excuse.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on March 12, 2007, 09:16:57 AM
I firmly believe the CCP staff involved are just immature and unprofessional.  That seems to be a meme in their corporate culture.

Yep.  Watching it all unfold, whether they're cheating with BPOs or griefing with impossibly-fitted capitals at lowsec gates or just helping their mates at the expense of the opposition, they just seem to be uber-geeks who've been given the cheatcodes that let them excel in an environment where their other inadequacies are masked.  To that extent, I believe an awful lot of us would make a lot of the same mistakes.

I suppose the difference is that an awful lot of our bosses would have dealt with it far, far better.  Plus - and this is the bit I don't get - where I work, our external auditors would have been all over the sort of direct access to live servers that these people have.  And just because our servers offer market data and CCP's offer a game doesn't make protecting them any less business-critical.  And if when we found out that someone was breaching our EULA terms about not sharing accounts we removed their access and cancelled their accounts with us.  That was easier for us than CCP because we didn't discover that numerous GMs, Devs and pet subscribers had been doing exactly that.

Like Soln says, there is a real problem with their corporate culture.  What he is doing might be motivated by petty or even criminal matters, but I am glad Kugutsumen is continuing his unpleasantness: eventually, I believe that CCP will have to (privately and internally) come up with some sort of adequate procedural response.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on March 12, 2007, 10:55:48 AM
I don't know if they have external auditors; they are an independent dev + publisher + distributor house, everything is in-house.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on March 12, 2007, 11:10:02 AM
I don't know if they have external auditors; they are an independent dev + publisher + distributor house, everything is in-house.

That's kinda what I meant: we have them, and they'd freak if we did what CCP did.  Of course, we're independent (Scotland's largest independent company, but us employees and a VC house still own the lot), but the auditors are a major part of making sure that when we do want to float, all our practises are transparent and above board.  It also reinforces our practises at the operational level.

Edit: this from the SA boards (emphasis is mine):

Quote from: Kenshin
Well looks like Kugutsumen released it before I could, but yes indeed Nebulai (head of ISD events team) is M Hoshi of Evolution.


I actually was accepted into Aurora at one point but decided to stick with the Mod Squad and instead was an extra actor if they needed me (I believe I was only in one event as an actor).

The events team has always had several very fundamental flaws, which I was exposed to and indeed exploited while I was part of ISD as a moderator (the moderators and event actors/planners were on some of the same ISD IRC channels so had a good bit of contact).

Flaws such as:

--CCP has never had a very coherant plan about the storyline of Eve, and thus left events (and the planning for events) up to Aurora (the ISD events division). Aurora members were free to submit event ideas. These event ideas only needed to be reviewed by the head of Aurora, not by any GMs or Developers. Larger events (such as the multiple ones in Fountain) needed to be approved by devs I believe but I'm not sure how detailed that process was since I wasn't involved.

--Have a friend that's in Aurora? Prepare for easy lootz. I had a friend who'd leak a lot of events to me and who also would explain the engagement rules of the actors to me pretty often, allowing me to decide if I'd show up (if I was in the area) and have relatively little to no risk to my own ship, while having a very good chance of getting one of the rewards. I got a +4 Implant from a event when they weren't being dropped by agents yet.

Top to fucking bottom.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on March 12, 2007, 05:20:46 PM
They manage to claw the game up to the point of credibility and tumble it all back down again.

Edit:  Christ I was tired yesterday.




Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: JoeTF on March 12, 2007, 05:42:40 PM
I don't know if they have external auditors; they are an independent dev + publisher + distributor house, everything is in-house.

That's kinda what I meant: we have them, and they'd freak if we did what CCP did.  Of course, we're independent (Scotland's largest independent company, but us employees and a VC house still own the lot), but the auditors are a major part of making sure that when we do want to float, all our practises are transparent and above board.  It also reinforces our practises at the operational level.

Edit: this from the SA boards (emphasis is mine):

Quote from: Kenshin
Well looks like Kugutsumen released it before I could, but yes indeed Nebulai (head of ISD events team) is M Hoshi of Evolution.


I actually was accepted into Aurora at one point but decided to stick with the Mod Squad and instead was an extra actor if they needed me (I believe I was only in one event as an actor).

The events team has always had several very fundamental flaws, which I was exposed to and indeed exploited while I was part of ISD as a moderator (the moderators and event actors/planners were on some of the same ISD IRC channels so had a good bit of contact).

Flaws such as:

--CCP has never had a very coherant plan about the storyline of Eve, and thus left events (and the planning for events) up to Aurora (the ISD events division). Aurora members were free to submit event ideas. These event ideas only needed to be reviewed by the head of Aurora, not by any GMs or Developers. Larger events (such as the multiple ones in Fountain) needed to be approved by devs I believe but I'm not sure how detailed that process was since I wasn't involved.

--Have a friend that's in Aurora? Prepare for easy lootz. I had a friend who'd leak a lot of events to me and who also would explain the engagement rules of the actors to me pretty often, allowing me to decide if I'd show up (if I was in the area) and have relatively little to no risk to my own ship, while having a very good chance of getting one of the rewards. I got a +4 Implant from a event when they weren't being dropped by agents yet.

Top to fucking bottom.
Did you petitioned that guy, or GS cheater=good, BoB cheater=bad?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Endie on March 12, 2007, 06:01:02 PM
Did you petitioned that guy, or GS cheater=good, BoB cheater=bad?

He doesn't play any more - hasn't for 6 months - but basically he got called out on the hypocrisy of his actions, yes.  If I knew what his character name was, and I saw that he was playing, then yeah, I'd petition.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: dwindlehop on March 15, 2007, 02:11:54 PM
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/15/0726233&threshold=3

Interview with Magnus, first question deals with t20 scandal. My take on Magnus's reply is that the corrective actions of those who discovered the cheating were wrong.

He doesn't address some of the GM-related things that Kugutsumen has been dredging up recently. Magnus does confirm that CCP employees have characters evenly distributed through the ten major alliances.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: TripleDES on March 18, 2007, 01:32:40 PM
Did you petitioned that guy, or GS cheater=good, BoB cheater=bad?
We don't cheat, you faggot. Keep that shit where it belongs, like the EVE-O shit pit.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Slayerik on March 19, 2007, 09:42:28 AM
Did you petitioned that guy, or GS cheater=good, BoB cheater=bad?
We don't cheat, you faggot. Keep that shit where it belongs, like the EVE-O shit pit.

Post with your main!

;)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Chenghiz on March 19, 2007, 02:11:37 PM
There's an interesting bit on TenTonHammer from GDC'07 about this.. well the first bit, anyway:
Quote
Ethec: I don’t want to make a big deal out of it, but do you have anything to say about the recent issues you’ve had with the GMs?

Magnus: Yes, there are a number of things I can say about it. It was a complete mess on our part. We were just naļve, because we’d never gone through something like this before.

When this occurred, it was actually during the European vacations, and – of course, almost the entire management team was out when this happened. The people that were in charge then, they decided to deal with it in the way that they dealt with it. They had virtually no experience – I mean none of us had experienced something like that – and we thought nothing like that would ever happen.

It sounds extremely naļve, but the mentality was that we were so committed to this game that we never thought one of our own would do any harm to it. It’s like harming your own child.

But now we know that it CAN happen. The whole situation made me so sad. It was a big downer for us, and to see some of the users still going on about this….it just makes you miserable.

I’ve talked to the individual who did this, and he still doesn’t understand why he decided to do it. He had access to certain databases that only a select few people had access too, so it was just an extreme case all around. We couldn’t double judge him after the fact – it would have been like double jeopardy. However, now we have VERY strict rules and internal audits concerning our employees. We have a department that does nothing else but track this sort of thing.

Then we have these people who think CCP is on a secret mission to help one alliance succeed in the game, and it’s so ridiculous and out there that it makes absolutely no sense. We did a query on all employees, and they’re very evenly distributed through the top twenty alliances. So how could we just help one alliance, without our own employees jumping in to make sure that the rival alliance doesn’t gain an upper hand?

At CCP, we play this game because we love it, but there’s still that question: Should we be playing this game at such a high level, because we are developers? There are some valid points saying we shouldn’t, but also some counter arguments noting that if we’re not there, how do we know how the game is played there?

The game evolves so quickly with the players, and if we’re not there how could we keep up? I don’t think there’s a magic solution, in this case.

 It’s just a mess, but we’re coming out of it with more control and it should be better for everybody.

Ethec: Do you think it was a symptom of your growth?

Magnus: Absolutely. We were just growing so fast. We stopped paying attention to things like this because we thought it wouldn’t be an issue.

Boomjack: Did it affect your subscription numbers at all?

Magnus: Actually it didn’t. We leveled off because of World of Warcraft, but now we're growing again. If somebody quit because of that situation, I think they were probably ready to quit anyway.

But we know that people are still very angry at us because we did something really really wrong. Hopefully in time people will see that it was just human error. We are no different than our users; we can make mistakes. It won’t happen again.

Source: http://www.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=512


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: 5150 on March 20, 2007, 11:05:22 AM
Did you petitioned that guy, or GS cheater=good, BoB cheater=bad?
We don't cheat, you faggot. Keep that shit where it belongs, like the EVE-O shit pit.

Post with your main!

;)

Proof or STFU!

 :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Kamen on March 20, 2007, 11:14:45 AM
Quote
It sounds extremely naļve, but the mentality was that we were so committed to this game that we never thought one of our own would do any harm to it. It’s like harming your own child.

But now we know that it CAN happen.

That this can happen is shocking!  Shocking I tell thee!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the third confirmed case of a dev/intern abusing his power?  Aren’t there also numerous other unproven cases?  I am surprised that he is surprised.

The Dev’s aren’t just “playing the game”.  Many are in alliance leadership positions and provide input on where, who, and how to fight on a daily basis.  And when a three-year-old PvP character being run by a guy with a heavy Nordic accent starts giving alliance leaders advice on Teamspeak, I would think they tend to listen.  As a matter of fact, we know for a fact now that in at least one instance they were doing far more than giving advice.  How many times have Dev's done things that cannot be proven by logs?  We'll never know.  This case was caught and proven only because it was flagrant and documented.

As long as the Dev’s are an important part of the leadership of the 0.0 based alliance warfare the tinfoil hats are going to reign supreme after every engagement.  I don’t see how the shockingly common perception of an unlevel playing field is sustainable.

But I stay in Empire, so whatever.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on March 20, 2007, 12:41:42 PM
The t20 thing was the first (and only) major dev incident; prior and subsequent incidents have involved primarily GMs or ISD/Aurora staff. IIRC there may have been one with a senior GM in the last few months, but I've more or less stopped paying attention.

Oh, yeah, head of ISD. Ten posts up.

Shrug.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2007, 11:43:27 AM
All very amusing, but it doesn't come as a great shock.  This sort of stuff has come up in nearly every game.  In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on March 21, 2007, 12:22:16 PM
All very amusing, but it doesn't come as a great shock.  This sort of stuff has come up in nearly every game.  In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.

Any press is good press.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on March 22, 2007, 08:03:06 AM
All very amusing, but it doesn't come as a great shock.  This sort of stuff has come up in nearly every game.  In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.

Then you are odd.  Nuts.  Crazy in the coconut.

What the fuck would be the point of playing ?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Slayerik on March 22, 2007, 09:48:00 AM
All very amusing, but it doesn't come as a great shock.  This sort of stuff has come up in nearly every game.  In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.

Then you are odd.  Nuts.  Crazy in the coconut.

What the fuck would be the point of playing ?

I know I sure like to work my ass off for things that are just handed to Dev friends!  :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Comstar on March 23, 2007, 09:31:30 AM
In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.

Only if the coalition defeats BoB. If we fail, and BoB wins, game over.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on March 23, 2007, 10:01:13 AM
In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.

Only if the coalition defeats BoB. If we fail, and BoB wins, game over.
BoB will fall apart. Empires don't last.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Soln on March 23, 2007, 11:33:51 AM
In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.

Only if the coalition defeats BoB. If we fail, and BoB wins, game over.
BoB will fall apart. Empires don't last.

It's been awhile...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: WindupAtheist on March 23, 2007, 11:47:25 AM
Wouldn't it be awesome if BoB won and reigned supreme as some sort of invincible developer's club, and the entire game stagnated from within, and festered, and died like a man with a lingering infection?  And the company goes out of business, and a couple of developers and crazy fanboys shoot themselves, and it's all a huge disgrace and debacle, and ten years later you're all still arguing over it like me and Sinij fighting over UO?

That would be rad.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on March 23, 2007, 12:00:10 PM
In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.

Only if the coalition defeats BoB. If we fail, and BoB wins, game over.
BoB will fall apart. Empires don't last.

It's been awhile...
Rome didn't fall in a day either. Maybe this will take them down. Odds are, BoB will just weather repeated attacks over time from different coalitions, see the fracturing of it's allies, and finally end up a shell of it's former self -- and then get the shit kicked out of it after massive Corp Drama that sees half the people leaving in a huff and declaring war on the other have.

So, pretty much exactly like Rome, really.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Faust on March 23, 2007, 04:54:54 PM
All very amusing, but it doesn't come as a great shock.  This sort of stuff has come up in nearly every game.  In fact, hearing about it has increased my interest in the game, for some odd reason.

Then you are odd.  Nuts.  Crazy in the coconut.

What the fuck would be the point of playing ?

Exactly my ponderations of the moment...  maybe I miss the drama... maybe I now realize that I'd never be effected anyway (low involvement threashold these days)... maybe i'm a natural scavenger and sense blood... maybe I yearn for the old days when everyone knew that Dev Staff played with us and against us and it was cool...

I dunno why, but I keep thinking Eve might be something to play around with... but I know it isn't.

/shrug


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: JoeTF on March 24, 2007, 10:32:26 AM
Well, if BoB is bad, think what happens when Napwhores Coallition wins. Entire 0.0 being one huge napland run by two bullies:
-D2, which dominates the north is fameous for selling out their close allies and their territory,
-RA which rules the west, fameous from scamming their ally SMASH of their 10/10 plex.

Sorry, but if we're to have 2 major forces running 0.0 game, they have to be in war and not napped together to abuse all the smaller entities more efficiently. IF EVE dies, it'll be because of D2 and RA cockblocking everyone else 0.0 access.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on March 24, 2007, 11:27:01 AM
I don't think you can have an unending war where two sides stay constant, never losing, never winning, yet at the same time forever willing to put up with war losses.  The players will get bored.  Besides, what are you suggesting, that the Coalition not go all the way "for the good of the game"?  Same with BoB, if they end up poised to win?  Screw that, players will fight with all they got; it's CCP's job to manage the EVE game.

Besides, the entire 0.0 is already being cockblocked by alliances.  Look at where the population concentration is.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on March 24, 2007, 02:06:29 PM
Well, if BoB is bad, think what happens when Napwhores Coallition wins. Entire 0.0 being one huge napland run by two bullies:
-D2, which dominates the north is fameous for selling out their close allies and their territory,
-RA which rules the west, fameous from scamming their ally SMASH of their 10/10 plex.

Sorry, but if we're to have 2 major forces running 0.0 game, they have to be in war and not napped together to abuse all the smaller entities more efficiently. IF EVE dies, it'll be because of D2 and RA cockblocking everyone else 0.0 access.
You honestly expect the current series of NAPs to last much past the fall of BoB?
With the best will in the world sooner or later something will happen, someone will take offence, and the skies will burn.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Endie on March 24, 2007, 02:39:09 PM
-RA which rules the west, fameous from scamming their ally SMASH of their 10/10 plex.

This is probably nonsense.  The only evidence for is hearsay.  The only evidence against is hearsay.  Don't repeat it as fact.  "Famous" my arse.  Especially as some of your other views in the same post were entirely valid.

The coalition are fairly open that after the Bobitts are defeated (assuming they manage that: I have my doubts it can be done in any meaningful manner) then all bets (and naps, in the south at least) are off.  I'd be surprised if RA and GF fought.  I'd not be at all surprised at a north-south war.  Though it would just be for the sake of fighting.

Edit: This is the thread about bob and CCP cheating.  The war thread is over there.  And GF won't be cockblocking 0.0 access: they and IAC are actively opening up 0.0 to pubbies.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 24, 2007, 04:36:31 PM
You honestly expect the current series of NAPs to last much past the fall of BoB?
With the best will in the world sooner or later something will happen, someone will take offence, and the skies will burn.
I don't expect it to last *to* the fall of BoB.  Either BoB will be about to fall, and everyone will "pearl harbor" each other in a grand clusterfuck of mutual betrayal, or it will become clear it *won't* fall, and everyone will start saying "Coalition?  What coalition?  We love BoB, always have."

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on April 04, 2007, 02:24:56 PM
BoB and their pets never get to bitch about RA exploiting broken complex respawn timers ever again, mkay? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=501521)

Cliff notes: There was an...interesting 'bug' with the Blood Raider 10/10 complexes added fairly recently to BoB-space (only), namely that the last overseer (read: boss mob) had a one-hour respawn instead of an eight- or twelve-hour timer. Hence why BoB has lots of officer-fitted ships, presumably.
Wonder which dev set up those complexes? t20?

Also: Dark Shikari is going to be number one target of friendly fire from now on. :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Fordel on April 04, 2007, 03:02:33 PM
I always hear about how RA was(is?) exploiting complexes, but I have no idea how or what they are exploiting exactly?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: dwindlehop on April 04, 2007, 03:30:03 PM
Downtime is Russian primetime. Every downtime, the complex is respawned. If you get to it after downtime, you are guaranteed a full plex. RA camps an unbelievable number of 10/10 plexes and runs them, every day. It is possible to scare them off or gank them, but you have to arrive in force, immediately after downtime. If you wait too long, they'll get the first key and be in the second room where you can't get them.

Every time I've lived near a 10/10 plex, RA has run it despite our best efforts to keep them out. Even if you kill them all one morning, they'll be back running the plex soon afterwards.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on April 04, 2007, 03:33:47 PM
That's not what people mean when they speak about RA complex sploits, though.  That's just legitimate use of your time zone.

The RA thing was just what Bob was doing: bugged respawn timers on spawns in complexes.  Except that I think it was only 8/10 complexes.  Dark Shikari - fair play to him for it - seems to have raised the issue of an almost a dreadnought-hull-an-hour boss.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on April 04, 2007, 03:36:41 PM
It's going to be interesting to see how BoB's internal economy copes now - their ISK-farms just got shut down, and the T2 market is in freefall thanks to Invention.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: dwindlehop on April 04, 2007, 03:54:20 PM
In a just universe, the timer would not be reset because there was a downtime.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: WindupAtheist on April 04, 2007, 04:28:10 PM
10/10 complexes added fairly recently to BoB-space (only)

I'm starting to wonder why anyone else even bothers to play.  What, just to be the fall guys in the CCP office game?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Morat20 on April 04, 2007, 04:49:12 PM
10/10 complexes added fairly recently to BoB-space (only)

I'm starting to wonder why anyone else even bothers to play.  What, just to be the fall guys in the CCP office game?
It's getting fucking ridiculous. Any bug is designed to aid BoB. Any lag is designed to aid BoB. Everything any developer says, does, or thinks is part of a nefarious fucking plan to aid BoB.

Even the developers in other alliances are there to aid BoB. Even the fact that BoB taking over all of 0.0 would be a major crimp to the actual game EVE, and the Devlopers paychecks, is a nefarious fucking attempt to aid BoB.

I swear I need to wear a fucking tinfoil hat to even read about EVE these days, and I don't give two goddamn shits about what's going on in 0.0, because it doesn't affect me.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Endie on April 04, 2007, 05:04:27 PM
It's going to be interesting to see how BoB's internal economy copes now - their ISK-farms just got shut down, and the T2 market is in freefall thanks to Invention.

From the figures cited in Dark Shikari's thread, just one of those complexes, farmed only at 50% efficiency for the last three months, and ignoring every cent not from the bugged bosses, would yield pretty close to a trillion ISK.  They already had years of T2 blueprint profits.  For whatever reason, the devs saw fit to significantly boost their region after they took it over.  Why would they run out of money?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: tmp on April 04, 2007, 09:56:11 PM
From the figures cited in Dark Shikari's thread, just one of those complexes, farmed only at 50% efficiency for the last three months, and ignoring every cent not from the bugged bosses, would yield pretty close to a trillion ISK.  They already had years of T2 blueprint profits.  For whatever reason, the devs saw fit to significantly boost their region after they took it over.  Why would they run out of money?

From the same thread though, BoB apparently didn't bother to run the complex in question, let alone farm it 23/7. Which makes no sense until you take into account another tidbit from that thread -- the bosses in these complexes were bugged and wouldn't exactly drop much of the loot, if any. Which would suggest what DS talks about is some sort of new development, something that people didn't yet find out about, and what was probably introduced with the most recent patch (part of the patch was conversion of large groups of NPCs into lesser, stronger entities)  Because if it was indeed as profitable as people make it out to be, why would BoB let anyone but themselves milk such cash cow?

But why should that stop a good conspiracy theory and calculations of trillions of ISK based on nothing but the most convenient pieces of forum talk and presumptions.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 04, 2007, 10:57:09 PM
The bugged spawn timers didn't matter until one or two patches ago, at least for Blood Raider 10/10's, because those plexes didn't drop anything from the Overseer.  And apparently *all* the 10/10's have been bugged like this for a long time (perhaps since the Revelations 1.0 patch 6 months ago), except the Angel plexes.  Which explains why the 4-07 plex in Catch has had AAA in it 23/7.  In fact, BoB, FIX, and MC may be the only alliances not exploiting this bug (which explains a lot about how everybody and their brother seems to be building Motherships/Titans these days).

And there was some griping at DS for posting it on the Eve-O boards, but mostly because now we're going to be fighting off squatters in C-7.  Nobody's really complaining that he reported it, just that he raised a big "Free Money!" sign in FIX space.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Simond on April 05, 2007, 04:11:09 AM
The bugged spawn timers didn't matter until one or two patches ago, at least for Blood Raider 10/10's, because those plexes didn't drop anything from the Overseer.
...according to BoB & FIX. :)
Also, what's the salvage like from an overseer wreck?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Wolf on April 05, 2007, 04:24:54 AM
It's getting fucking ridiculous. Any bug is designed to aid BoB. Any lag is designed to aid BoB. Everything any developer says, does, or thinks is part of a nefarious fucking plan to aid BoB.

Why do you bother even replying to WUA? It's not like he plays the game.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: JoeTF on April 05, 2007, 05:28:11 AM
BoB and their pets never get to bitch about RA exploiting broken complex respawn timers ever again, mkay? (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=501521)

Cliff notes: There was an...interesting 'bug' with the Blood Raider 10/10 complexes added fairly recently to BoB-space (only), namely that the last overseer (read: boss mob) had a one-hour respawn instead of an eight- or twelve-hour timer. Hence why BoB has lots of officer-fitted ships, presumably.
Wonder which dev set up those complexes? t20?

Also: Dark Shikari is going to be number one target of friendly fire from now on. :)

OMG! Comedy gold.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: tmp on April 05, 2007, 08:52:04 AM
...according to BoB & FIX. :)

If these complexes were as profitable as people who never seen them make it out to be, BoB would be running them on their own and Fix would never be given opportunity to find out how much loot they drop. The very fact Fix got to run that complex for long enough to figure out something may be bugged about it... in a way confirms BoB didn't run it. And if BoB didn't run it there's only one simple explanation for that -- they weren't as profitable as people think they were.

The devsploit theory seriously doesn't hold water in this case. "Dev alliance" spawns themselves bugged complexes to cheat, has supposedly the insider knowledge these things are bugged, and in the end doesn't bother to run their cash cow but leaves it free to some 3rd party? Right...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Endie on April 05, 2007, 09:21:29 AM
Look, tmp, everyone knows whose side people like comstar and yoru and I are on, and whose side folks like you and joetf are on, and there is even a fair idea in most peoples' minds roughly where Mahrin stands.  But really, if DS of all people says "these are horribly bugged and can pay for a dread fleet in a week", and those on the other side of the fence from DS are saying "yep, he's right", and CCP are saying "this is high enough priority to fix in hours as opposed to the fooorrreeever of the last, less dramatic sploit" then you know what?  I reckon that this was just as big as pretty much everyone but you says.

Do I think some of Bob's pet dev members knew over the last two months?  Sure.  I would bet money on it.  Do I think it was put in there on purpose?  No.  And much as I associate DS with a feeling of queasiness, unless someone shows otherwise then I think he did The Right Thing where most others wouldn't have.

Edit: spelling


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: JoeTF on April 05, 2007, 01:57:49 PM
If that's the plex I think it is, then it was so fucking buggastic hard no one in BOB bothered to run it regularly.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: tmp on April 05, 2007, 09:52:37 PM
But really, if DS of all people says "these are horribly bugged and can pay for a dread fleet in a week", and those on the other side of the fence from DS are saying "yep, he's right", and CCP are saying "this is high enough priority to fix in hours as opposed to the fooorrreeever of the last, less dramatic sploit" then you know what?  I reckon that this was just as big as pretty much everyone but you says.

Do I think some of Bob's pet dev members knew over the last two months?  Sure.  I would bet money on it.  Do I think it was put in there on purpose?  No.  And much as I associate DS with a feeling of queasiness, unless someone shows otherwise then I think he did The Right Thing where most others wouldn't have.

Yeah, I'm not saying that these things weren't bugged when DS ran the complex, I believe he saw what he says he did. And reporting it definitely seems like the right thing to do (I'm not sure about doing it on forum like that because in a way that gave people another reason to roll eyes at CCP, but that's moot point now and well it did make them act pretty quick so maybe that was for the best)

The part I'm meh about is how this fact (complex currently bugged) is taken and used as foundation for what's pretty much pure guesswork that it's something that must've been there for god knows how many months, and who surely must've known and made trillions out of it and zomg drama etc. Just frustrating when there's no facts to go by and figure out if things were one way or another.

Incidentally, someone on EVE forums is currently claiming the same bug (respawn every hour) is also affecting 10/10 complexes in the north. It doesn't sound very convincing but who knows.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=502618


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Yoru on April 05, 2007, 11:10:06 PM
The part I'm meh about is how this fact (complex currently bugged) is taken and used as foundation for what's pretty much pure guesswork that it's something that must've been there for god knows how many months, and who surely must've known and made trillions out of it and zomg drama etc. Just frustrating when there's no facts to go by and figure out if things were one way or another.

So an argument on the internet rapidly spirals into unfounded conjecture, flaming and handwaving?

Even Nostradamus could not foresee this!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 05, 2007, 11:20:30 PM
Word I get is that it affected all 10/10's except the Angel plexes since the Revelations 1.0 patch almost six months ago.  We (FIX, BoB, and MC) didn't notice because until a few weeks ago the Blood Raider 10/10 overseers were bugged to drop crap loot (standard -0.8 rat loot), so nobody ran them, except for one set of FIX australians who were doing it every week or so to see if it got fixed.  After it was fixed, they took some FIX leadership on tours through it to show how the complex could be taken, and that's when it was discovered that the overseer respawn was bugged.  BoB and MC weren't running their 10/10's at all, having other priorities than checking on a broken plex to see if it stopped being broken.

So, apparently, everyone *but* BoB, MC, and FIX has been exploiting this for months.  And we reported it as soon as we found out, before we knew that all the others were bugged as well.  So stick *that* in your "omgBoDsploithax" pipe and smoke it.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Ironwood on April 06, 2007, 05:43:04 AM
I seriously love the time, energy and enthusiasm that goes into this broken game.  It's a joy to see.

I shouldn't have had the kid.

:)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Murgos on April 06, 2007, 08:31:28 AM
It's certainly more fun to read about than it is to play.  I'm kidding but not really.  It's just too much time to get to the good stuff.  But these last couple of months of high level political maneuvering have been pretty interesting.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Kamen on April 06, 2007, 09:48:52 AM
It's certainly more fun to read about than it is to play.  I'm kidding but not really.  It's just too much time to get to the good stuff.  But these last couple of months of high level political maneuvering have been pretty interesting.

The Goons might disagree with your "it takes too much time to get to the good stuff" statement.

That aside, I moved OUT of 0.0 at least partially because of what you regard as the good stuff.  The politics is interesting to read about, I'll give you that, and that is exactly what most corp members in 0.0 also get to do, read about what their leaders have decided.  The 0.0 warfare aspect I find to be boring as hell and grossly overrated.  All of the best fights I have had were in low sec empire.  Sorry, I know that 0.0 is supposed to be where everybody aspires to live, and that I am now an Empire hugging carebear who just doesn't get it, but I've had a hell of a lot more fun PvPing, running a corp, and carebearing almost entirely in Empire over the last year than I ever had in 0.0 alliance warfare before that.

Just depends on what you regard as the good stuff I guess, and that's what I love about Eve.  I'm not being led by the hand, forced to level, or told what my goals are going to be by the game design.  I am provided a game environment with a multitude of things I can do, varying degrees of risk that I can assume or not, and can spend as much or as little time as I like trying various things out until I have found on my own what "the good stuff" is.  People who can't set their own goals quickly get bored and leave Eve.  This pleases me.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: ajax34i on April 06, 2007, 10:51:39 AM
Yeah, it's nice that you can play a part of EVE that was never the focus for development for CCP, and that they don't lock you out and send you off to another MMOG.  The fact that it's not the focus will show itself in subtle ways (mostly via undevelopped or cumbersome features - mission and faction system, NPC AI, group UI, etc.), and it might eventually get to you, but I guess for now you're ok with it, so grats.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: dwindlehop on April 06, 2007, 11:19:54 AM
All of the best fights I have had were in low sec empire.  Sorry, I know that 0.0 is supposed to be where everybody aspires to live, and that I am now an Empire hugging carebear who just doesn't get it, but I've had a hell of a lot more fun PvPing, running a corp, and carebearing almost entirely in Empire over the last year than I ever had in 0.0 alliance warfare before that.
I don't have any good lowsec experiences, but the 0.0 regions with NPC stations and sov have been a lot more fun for me than the player sov regions. We'll have to see what Rev 2.0 brings.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Hellinar on April 06, 2007, 11:39:24 AM
So, apparently, everyone *but* BoB, MC, and FIX has been exploiting this for months.

Which shouldn’t be happening if CCP had any statistical Quality Assurance code on their production servers. Any decent statistical sampling would pull up such a huge anomaly in days, without any player input. Apparently, CCP don’t have any such code.

Long ago, in the physical manufacturing industry, people used to design products, test them in the lab, then toss them over the wall into production, and assume it still worked. These days, that kind of behavior would lose a production manager his job. Its still the norm in the MMOG industry apparently,  “hey, it worked on test” is still seen as a valid  defense for crappy production code.

The people at CCP and other game shops still think their job is writing computer code, not running a large scale virtual goods factory. The quality problem has been pretty much solved in physical manufacturing years back. It way past time those methods were transferred to production MMOG servers.

I like playing EVE at the low “spreadsheets in space” level. But the high level game seems to depend greatly on who exploits the bugs the best. Not my idea of fun game to play. It sure is fun to read about though. I’m glad some folks here are playing it and reporting the results.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: TripleDES on April 07, 2007, 06:58:32 PM
stuff
If you'd put a propeller on that spin, you'd lift off like Inspector Gadget.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Simond on May 25, 2007, 12:32:16 PM
Oh hey, this thread. I think we may need it again.
More fun inc.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scan
Post by: Comstar on May 25, 2007, 02:10:28 PM
Goddamm CCP, YOU MANIACS DID IT AGAIN!

Evil Krugsmans Spy, reveals all  (http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=832)
For those parinoid about K's activies, here's the story from his fourm.

Some smaller details also found on Goonfleets public news thread (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2475197&perpage=40&pagenumber=20)

Note that the first scandel was before T20. The nexts ones were AFTER the T20 fiasco and looks like CCP internal investigations were the ones who did the canning.

Not quite on the level of giving BoD some BPO's. This is just further proof of parts of CCP being in BoD's pocket.


There also dark hints of an even worse scandel, but I havn't seen anything about it yet.

 It might be refering to scandel number #3 this on Krugsman fourm, warning spies (http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=833) which posts from an internal Goonswam fourm. Bascialy a CCP Dev(?) used GM tools to gain acccess to a GS corp...which may be building Goon Cap ships. After 21 minutes, he left. What would a CCP be doing giving himself director roles in a Goonswam corp?!?

kugutsumen
Administrator
kugutsumen's Avatar
 
Join Date: 2007 Jan
Posts: 488
   
Default YOU ARE EMBARRASSING THE ISD AND CCP THE COMPANY!!
Last month, I received a cryptic message...

Quote
Quote:
Hi.

Well, I must admit, your investigations have been quite thourogh in reguards to this BoB/CCP bullshit. Even as a CCP Vol, surrounded by those who speak naught but ill of you and your 'destructive efforts toward the game we love', I've enjoyed a smile or two at seeing my more shady counterparts squirm. I hate cheaters...

Problem is, one day I caught them too.
I wanted to do the RIGHT thing, and went to CCP with it.
My vol accounts were banned without notice or explaination a few hours after being told they would be investigating things.

This happened a couple months ago now, but I am not a very revenge minded person to go public with it, especially since my actions are covered via an NDA.

You provide a bit of a loophole to me.

How can I be responsible if some 'known hacker type' were to have 'stolen' the info from a secure place where I told the story?

Logs and such come with it. If this sort of things still occupies your time, and you are interested, let me know.
I replied:

Quote:
Quote
Originally Posted by kugutsumen
I'm quite interested in what you have to disclose and I can help you leak the intel without exposing you. NDA doesn't really matter, especially for an internet spaceship game... Not seen not caught.

Some of the intel posted on kugu come from various sources. Sometimes a simple hint can point us in the right direction.
Today I received a reply.

The first part tell us the story of Mirial, a former ISD member who hacked ISD and later tried to exposing a case of corruption. Sounds familiar?

The second part covers more recent events (post T20). In a middle of a fight between BoB and the Coalition, a BoB guy who works for CCP QA Department starts ordering a ISD reporter, Raekhan, and gets him banned.

In his message, Raekhan gives me the permission to repost verbatim... I took the liberty to highlight some segments with big bold red fonts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raekhan
My apologies for the long delay.

I promised myself not to get involved in what, at the time, I called "An internet nerd revenge scheme' that was this issue, I felt that bringing this stuff to light would be cheap, and silly, and completely beneath anyone who was actually able to 'move on'....

Months after, I planned to re-evaluate....that time has passed, I still have no desire to play EVE, and thus, I can tell you some things....

please PM me with an email address (any email you so choose) to attach a file or two to...

Now, my story....

I am also known as Graelyn, a (once) big RP-community-guy. I was the executor of the Aegis Militia Alliance. (We kicked the Bloodraider NPC group out of the Bleak Lands Region, and recently stomped those StarFraction people.)

The AM guys guys are great GREAT people, and since the below incident ocured, they have safeguarded a very bad secret for a very long time, one that would ensure the dissolution of the RP community we tried so hard to maintain....

Mirial, once the executor of my Alliance, was banned, the center of what would be referred to as the 'Tetrimon OOC affair'.

What occured was this:

Several members of the alliance Aegis Militia were ISD members (completely in regulations and living that double-life as it was intended to be played, by the rules), however, Mirial, who was once an ISD member, managed to get the login/PW info to an ISD forum from a director of her corp who happened to be in ISD. (How this happened is still a mystery even to me, I am still inquiring)...

Basically, Mirial was accessing an AURORA website illegally, and was banned for it (Something I cannot in any theory disagree with, NDA was broken, and similarly, I can't argue with YOUR banning from EVE, sir...try to understand....), but it was the nature of the thing that caused so much distress....

You see, ISD claims that events are not rigged, that RP groups can influence the events in the world. This is a lie, and one that, after discovering, I did not reveal, in the fears that it would demolish the already on-the-ropes RP community in EVE.

AM already had suspicions, as by the end of the Tetrimon affair, we had been involved in more events that ANY other group in EVE without exception. In the course of this we often 'succeeded' in events that we later realized were not meant to be won, then watched as AURORA actors deperately lost the scenario
(when actors have to resort to self-destructing thier own ships in the middle of battle, you know you have an ulterior motive underway in the story...*groan*...)

Mirial was in browsing (illegally) one of these ISD forums when one of the 'recommended' story paths was mandated by CCP, namely "_____ side must win, see to this immediately."

Upon reading this decree by CCP, Mirial showed his cards and revealed all on our alliance's Vent server.

2 hours after bringing this up in our Ventrillo channel, Mirial was banned from EVE...for telling his Alliance members what was up. Turns out I was only one of many members of ISD in my Alliance, and the others had hit the alarm to the ISD dept heads as soon as this talk beagn in our private Vent server....

Within 30 minutes (of the reveal in vent) I had 2 AURORA members convoing us INGAME, OOC, trying to play down the fact. The two in question argued with Mirial, but did NOT deny that rigging was going on, rather emphasising that it was all for 'The Greater Good'.

At the same time, Nebulai, Head of the ISD program, convoed ME (I was second in command of AM, an ISD-InterstallarCorespondents member, and a Mirial banning process was already in motion by 10-minutes into this, I was the primary focus of all damage control efforts), telling a different story, namely that RIGGING NEVER OCCURS, that all I had been hearing was nonsense....

AT THE SAME TIME, the document that I will give to you, was being sent to me by SEP-DOGAL, the AURORA tier 3 producer in charge of the Tetrimon Arc. He was sending it to me to show how much work had been done/lost with the arc, not realizing that the last paragraphs SPECIFICALLY DETAILED HOW THE ARC COULD BE RIGGED TO SUIT THE FINAL CCP DESCISION.

The only hint anyone else who played EVE got as to what had occured, came from this post:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...hreadID=405843

With that, all said 'compromised' arcs were completely terminated, and all events in the matter hushed up quickly. The RP community has longed cursed Mirial's name for 'ruining' all of these arcs, unaware that he was banned for trying to bring this to the community's attention....AM held thier tongues for the good of that community, even after months of shit-talk...they never spoke....bless-em....



It was a serious palm-to-forehead moment. It was the day I relized how fucked up the game was.


It did not stop there.

Eventually, RP being ruined for me, I focused explicitly on my ISD char (His name was Raekhan, a reporter with the ISD for 1.5 years at his termination)

Complaining about the way Raekhan was banned seems odd to me, considering how much I was able to use him to understand 0.0 realities in a way Alliance leaders can barely approach (I was an Empire-space RP-alliance leader, so conflicts-of-interest never became a problem, and with Raekahn, EVERY DAY I was able to simply jump and watch, from perfect safety, any offensive any Alliance happened to be engaging in. I used my jumpdrives more than any other person in CCP for sure....), but the day I lost Raekhan?

Sickening and Stupid on the part of CCP, seriously, how could you ever accept the following as proper and effective damage control???

I was floating around in my Polaris frig, watching one of the massive, 270+-in-local battles in the south, BOB vs COALTION, BoB had already destroyed thier second POS in the system....when I 'text-jumped' (using admin "tr/ 'playername' jumpto command) to a certain Dread pilot I knew was in the action. Doing so teleports a polaris frig to that players ship...at 1 FOOT distance. I jumped to this position and immediately orbitted the gaggle of 20 dreads at 80KM, standard operating proceedure for ISD reporters....

A minute later, Daakon, of BoB, began yelling in local "Hey, Reporter, you bumped our dread!!!" This was a falsehood, since the dread I jumped to was on the outside of the group and I made sure not to do just that.

I ignored him. A year and a half of Reportering and you get used to ALL BoB members trying to order/bully you around. It is a common practice (WAY TOO GODDAMN COMMON) that ISD members are ordered to completely ignore.

Eventually, Mr. Daakon began giving me DIRECT ORDERS. "You must leave the system. Now. Move, you shit!!"

My response?
"Um...no?"

Their response was pretty indicative of the manner in which BoB is used to ordering CCP personnel around...in LOCAL CHANNEL of 250+, Daakon replied:

"Well, I guess I'll have to call up my friends in CCP and get you dealt with."

I was sitting in ISD's IRC channel, as is required anytime you are logged in as an ISD char, and I decided to inform my dept. head of this development. He seemed amused....

Until 40 seconds later....

ISD IRC acounts have a lot of symbols in their usernames. They signify time-in-service, department membership, and other things, but after 40 seconds, a BRAND NEW userID appeared, bereft of any such demarcations or designations...an illegal and brand new ID...

"Hey, anyone know some reporter named Raekhan!?"
Me:"Um, yeah, that's me."
"LEAVE THAT SYSTEM NOW, YOU ARE EMBARRASSING THE ISD AND CCP THE COMPANY!!"

Me: ORLY!?
My ISD BOSS: 'ORLY!'

the next minutes were interesting, as my ISD-IC dept head began briefing me on the minbute-by-minute actions of the internal affairs team (formed after your T-20 revelation I should point out) LEAPED on this matter in seconds.

Me: "So I guess a BoB director claiming he has CCP buddies at his beckon call, and the fact that said buddy showed up 40 sec later, will raise some heads at CCP?"
Boss: "Oh, I think it already has...."
Me: "Well, at least something good will come from all this mess..."
Boss: "We have his IP address."
Boss: "He's posting from CCP, he's Staff."
Boss: He's in the QA department...."
*after long pause*
Boss: Well, I'll tell you how this goes tomorrow, take care, Rae..."

I signed off.

Turns out, within 3 hours, every ISD-related account I had was banned.

ISD-ingame char, banned.
Forum-ISD, banned.
EVE-Online.com Admin access, banned.
AURORA-TEAMSPEAK, banned.
The freaking ISD-COUNTERSTRIKE server, banned.

I never recieved an email explaining it.
Every email I have sent to the comany politely asking for even a corp-speak explaination for this has been ignored. The company refuses to admit I exist.

I was banned for reporting a serious conflict-of-interest to my 'chain-of-command' within the company....

My character, free to play as a side-benefit of doing work for CCP, was disabled, asking for funds to restart....

...and that's the day I walked away....I have never looked back , and the games and projects I've become involved with since then have made me wish I hadn't wasted the 3 years I played EVE....

Everything I speak of here will be very 'circumstantial' evidence, un-totally-backable events that fanboys will decry as the bitter musings of another EVE dissident.

Let them think this. I truly do gain pleasure from the axiom of 'a fool and his money are soon parted' and would wish nothing from the majority of the EVE community than to keep sending thier money to this once-great-company-now-conglomerate that I once recruited dozens of players to with conviction.

It took a lot to convince me of the truth, and not even the 'caught-red-handed' events that YOU exposed to the community could break my fanboy shell....till I saw it myself and kicked myself for being a naive idiot...

I do not fear CCP's NDA prosecutions, as they possess no hard copy of said document...thank goodness for premature admissions to the program (I never mailed them the required paperwork, but got in anyway, a move I am glad now to have done).

Anyhow, that's my story.

None of my enemies ever realized just who I was, and what I could have abused to hurt them. This too is alright by me. Video games are a stupid thing to measure one's dick-size with, a fact that many seem slow to realize....

(You may quote the entirety of the preceeding text verbatim if you wish. My time in CCP/EVE is long over,. All preceding text is your to use as you wish. I actually do feel a bit dirty being a cog in this very crooked 'crowd control' system, and attempts to reveal it as such to anyone will escape my notice, I am too involved with other projects to care. Best of luck in your efforts....you were right...I was a fool....)

If you print anything, print this.

"Graelyn: I was naive. Istvaan, you were right, too damned right, more than you may ever realize, you cocksucker....."


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 25, 2007, 02:28:49 PM
A threadnaught!  I can't wait.  I've only posted once in Eve-O since starting playing the game.  Now I get to be banned!

In all seriousness, there had better be one hell of a good explanation, because this stuff stinks.  Looks like using "BoD" really was undeniably accurate.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 25, 2007, 03:35:07 PM
You should have seen the original threadnaught. By god it was marvellous. Especially considering how long it took for the mods to catch on. Over twenty pages of image macros!

Also, that dickhead of sharkbait was infiltrating one of the Goonswarm corporations without cleaning up the audit logs.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Miasma on May 25, 2007, 03:43:32 PM
What's a threadnaught?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 25, 2007, 03:48:59 PM
What's a threadnaught?
You'll know one when you see one.  :evil:
(http://xs215.xs.to/xs215/07215/thethreadnaughtod9.jpg) (http://xs.to)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: LK on May 25, 2007, 03:53:41 PM
You can't have a good CCP scandal without a threadnaught.  Just like the game!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 03:57:26 PM
Frankly, I see the hand of The Mittani in this one.  After the last few months, that BoB could or would exert influence in CCP like this?  That they've subverted the Internal Affairs group at CCP?  As compared to the possibility that The Mittani could or would manufacture a scandal?  Occam's Razor.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 25, 2007, 04:48:50 PM
Frankly, I see the hand of The Mittani in this one.  After the last few months, that BoB could or would exert influence in CCP like this?  That they've subverted the Internal Affairs group at CCP?  As compared to the possibility that The Mittani could or would manufacture a scandal?  Occam's Razor.

--Dave
Or, you know, CCP are corrupt and BoB are a bunch of cheats. Except we already know this from the T20 thing.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=526190
Quote
The moderators have alerted CCP and the IA team regarding allegations of Dev misconduct. They will conduct their investigation, however its the weekend so it will take some time for the Devs to provide an answer. Please be patient.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 25, 2007, 04:50:35 PM
Frankly, I see the hand of The Mittani in this one.  After the last few months, that BoB could or would exert influence in CCP like this?  That they've subverted the Internal Affairs group at CCP?  As compared to the possibility that The Mittani could or would manufacture a scandal?  Occam's Razor.
So, is BoB's cock sugar coated or what?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ratadm on May 25, 2007, 04:51:02 PM
Honestly I think it's safer to assume that the Eve devs are gently loving incompetent and corrupt on a level not seen in other mmos.  I mean mitani being cloak and dagger isn't hard to believe but I honestly think it's more likely that sharkbait is not nearly as sneaky as he thinks he is.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 25, 2007, 04:55:40 PM
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=526190
IA investigating itself? Is that going to cause an endless loop?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 25, 2007, 04:58:18 PM
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 25, 2007, 05:09:07 PM
EVEO forums disabled. :V


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Comstar on May 25, 2007, 05:27:44 PM
GoonFleets letter to CCP (http://goonfleet.com/open_letter_to_CCP.html)

With this extra bit of intel
Quote
[ 2007.03.20 06:30:15 ] Orange Species > isd reporters are not to interfere with gameplay
[ 2007.03.20 06:30:22 ] Orange Species > that includes getting too close
[ 2007.03.20 06:30:25 ] Orange Species > to our ships
[ 2007.03.20 06:30:32 ] D4kkon > petition her
[ 2007.03.20 06:30:57 ] Orange Species > nah no petition
[ 2007.03.20 06:31:00 ] Orange Species > msn chat is enough
[ 2007.03.20 06:31:05 ] D4kkon > rgr

Orange Species merely needs MSN to get CCP help, according to this log.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 25, 2007, 05:31:51 PM
I'm more interested in the CCP sharkbait business myself.
Its really suspicious.

Darkstar 1, (corporation who CCP employee made himself director of) is one of the big capital ship producers for goonswarm.
They were the ones that were talking about maybe building supercapitals for goonswarm.
People that have 'director' status can quickly see IF the corporation has the buildings to create a supercapital & where the building is.

I think thats why it has really set off alarms with goons.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Raging Turtle on May 25, 2007, 05:52:58 PM
I'm more interested in the CCP sharkbait business myself.
Its really suspicious.

Darkstar 1, (corporation who CCP employee made himself director of) is one of the big capital ship producers for goonswarm.
They were the ones that were talking about maybe building supercapitals for goonswarm.
People that have 'director' status can quickly see IF the corporation has the buildings to create a supercapital & where the building is.

I think thats why it has really set off alarms with goons.

So BoB would then know where to attack and kill an incubating titan?  Or I am missing something?  Why the hell would the goons outsource something like building a titan, anyway?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Comstar on May 25, 2007, 05:54:39 PM
It's a goon alt corp I believe.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 25, 2007, 06:09:38 PM
So BoB would then know where to attack and kill an incubating titan?  Or I am missing something?  Why the hell would the goons outsource something like building a titan, anyway?

Darkstar 1 is a member of goonswarm.
Someone would know IF a supercapital (mothership/titan) is being built & WHERE its being built.

Then again, maybe the CCP employee was doing some completely harmless unrelated activity.
If thats the case, the employee should have handled it very differently.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 25, 2007, 06:25:21 PM
Sharkbait was hired into the QA team for the internal test server and SiSi. He has no goddamn business on the live server with his employee/godmode account.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Drogo on May 25, 2007, 06:26:00 PM
If this was any other game I would probably assume the players were just jumping to conclusions and causing drama, with CCP though, you have to wonder. They lost a lot of credibility with the T20 incident. It will be interesting to see what they have to say when the forums come back up.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: CmdrSlack on May 25, 2007, 07:32:12 PM
Wow.  I've never even tried Eve, but I'm kind of glad now that I didn't.  This kind of drama just reeks of old UO and EQ stuff.  Hell, when I was in the guide program, I was privy to all kinds of dirty laundry, but at least that stuff had resolution and whatnot.  This just seems too open-ended to be fair.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 25, 2007, 08:36:47 PM
CCP are trying to spin it to say the dev joined the goonswarm capital corp Darkstar1 and gave himself director level access to fix a pos bug.  Only thing is according to the CEO of darkstar1, when he joined they only had 2 small pos and neither had modules fitted, it's also been stated that nobody in darkstar1 filled a petition for any kind of bug.

Lots of goons being banned from the forums and ingame for posting questions in the official feedback thread or linking to the story from ingame chat channels.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Slayerik on May 25, 2007, 08:52:28 PM
Anyone wanna buy my account? :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 25, 2007, 09:03:36 PM
Not sure what to say about this:
Dianabolic = #2 man of BoB.  The organization that is accused of having devs 'on call'


Quote from: Dianabolic
You do realise that, in a previous witch hunt, the fact that many of us speak to the devs / gm's / employees of CCP on a regular basis as friends is already common knoweldge?

And you're now complaining that we speak to these people, who are also our friends, about stuff in-game?
Do you lot REALLY think that the "top" people, Hillmar and Oveur etc, are party to all of this? Of course they're not, this is their cash cow.

Get over yourselves.

Quote from: random guy
So basically you do have a special line straight to the devs and presumably get special favors because of that? Thanks for confirming.

Quote from: dianabolic
We have a "special" line (if you want to call msn that) to our FRIENDS.
Even devs need friends, you know, they're not robots.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sparky on May 25, 2007, 09:10:25 PM
Pure gold:

http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/d9/d97cac1bd72c82f23cef958351d267e939bf1c7d.jpg (http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/d9/d97cac1bd72c82f23cef958351d267e939bf1c7d.jpg)

http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/28/289cad86b9d0a3ccd72248126a721a39783f67eb.jpg (http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/28/289cad86b9d0a3ccd72248126a721a39783f67eb.jpg)

http://logan-1.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/d0/d0e1d8081dde5bf108791daed53ec32b896e43c1.png (http://logan-1.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/d0/d0e1d8081dde5bf108791daed53ec32b896e43c1.png)


Title: EVE - New allegations of developer misconduct
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 25, 2007, 09:12:45 PM
Figured some of you may be interested in this, it's been added to the old thread here (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9285.msg305493#msg305493) but that's 20 pages long.

http://goonfleet.com/open_letter_to_CCP.html

Three new allegations all raised today by goonswarm (the largest alliance in the game, also currently at war with the alliance BoB which had the CCP dev helping them last time).

1.  RP events that have in-game rewards are being rigged
2.  An in-game reporter gets fired on the spot for not leaving space when told to by a player in BoB.
3.  A dev joins a goonswarm corporation, gives himself guildmaster level access permissions then leaves, a petition from the CEO asking about this is closed and deleted.

More links

http://digg.com/pc_games/EVE_Creators_CCP_Under_Fire_Again_for_Alleged_Corruption_Open_Letter_Made

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/26/0016226&threshold=1

http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/05/25/eve-blows-up-again/

Official forums suffer a meltdown after the locking and deleting of all posts regarding the above, CCP then responds and opens one heavily moderated feedback thread here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=526462).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 09:24:30 PM
Chain of events, as near as I can figure it out:

ISD reporter friendly to Coalition is covering a battle between BoB and the Coalition.

ISD reporter is being a dick in local.

BoB leadership is being dicks back.

ISD reporter jumps in front of a moving BoB dread, which effectively bumps it (I know this can happen, I've been in the ship that bumped into an ISD ship).

BoB leadership bitches out ISD reporter about it in local.

ISD reporter calls BoB leadership liars in local.

BoB leadership uses MSN to contact IA in CCP.

IA comes in and boots the reporter from ISD.

Reporter drops dramabomb at Kuguetsman.

Goons jump on new "evidence" of CCP corruption.

That about cover it?

--Dave


Title: Re: EVE - New allegations of developer misconduct
Post by: Trippy on May 25, 2007, 09:29:12 PM
I like it better all in one thread. Moving to the other one.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trippy on May 25, 2007, 09:31:49 PM
BoB leadership uses MSN to contact IA in CCP.

IA comes in and boots the reporter from ISD.
Why is IA doing the job of a GM?


Title: Re: EVE - New allegations of developer misconduct
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 25, 2007, 09:36:40 PM
I like it better all in one thread. Moving to the other one.

Can you put a pointer here from general or something?  This is bigger story than GM Darwin and it's a current front story of digg, /. and brokentoys, few people read this subforum unless they are interested in Eve already and people come here for general mmorpg news.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sparky on May 25, 2007, 09:39:01 PM
Diana sez "get ur own devs nubs":

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u162/grover2828/510.jpg)

He's the gift that keeps on giving.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 25, 2007, 09:42:30 PM
That about cover it?
--Dave

Not really...

The way it reads to me:
-Neutral ISD reporter is covering a BoB versus goon fight.
-ISD reporter teleports to 1km of BoB dread & insta moves to 80km.
-BoB accuses reporter of bumping the dread.
-ISD reporter claims otherwise.
-BoB demands reporter leave system.
-Reporter refuses.
-BoB threatens to get on MSN & take care of reporter.
-ISD reporter immediately contacts boss & boss says not to worry about it.
-A random CCP employee uses an internal system to contact the reporter & demands he leave the system.
-CCP internal affairs is immediately contacted & lets the reporter know that the random CCP employee that just demanded that he leave is actually a QA employee.
-Reporter is told not to worry about it.
-Three hours later, reporter is fired without a word.  (after being employed for 1.5 years)
-All requests for further information by reporter are ignored.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 09:43:24 PM
BoB leadership uses MSN to contact IA in CCP.

IA comes in and boots the reporter from ISD.
Why is IA doing the job of a GM?
Because the ISD reporter was violating the rules, getting into factional pissing matches in local of a battle he was only supposed to be observing, and interfering with the course of that battle, so IA came to boot him out?

--Dave

EDIT: Which is why this feels like social engineering to me, the reporter went *way* over the line of "neutral and objective" in the local chatlogs, like he was trying to provoke an incident.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 25, 2007, 09:45:50 PM
BoB leadership uses MSN to contact IA in CCP.

IA comes in and boots the reporter from ISD.
Why is IA doing the job of a GM?
Because the ISD reporter was violating the rules, getting into factional pissing matches in local of a battle he was only supposed to be observing, and interfering with the course of that battle, so IA came to boot him out?

--Dave

IA didn't boot the reporter.
Random CCP employee from QA demand he leave.

We seem to have two different tales here, I'll reread it to make sure I'm not way off base here...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trippy on May 25, 2007, 09:50:43 PM
BoB leadership uses MSN to contact IA in CCP.

IA comes in and boots the reporter from ISD.
Why is IA doing the job of a GM?
Because the ISD reporter was violating the rules, getting into factional pissing matches in local of a battle he was only supposed to be observing, and interfering with the course of that battle, so IA came to boot him out?

--Dave

EDIT: Which is why this feels like social engineering to me, the reporter went *way* over the line of "neutral and objective" in the local chatlogs, like he was trying to provoke an incident.
That didn't really answer my question. Isn't IA supposed to investigate in-game misconduct by CCP employees? If IA is itself actively "policing" things in-game who investigates IA in-game misconduct?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 09:51:36 PM
I had missed the part about the QA employee.  So, BoB contacted a QA employee at CCP, which IA investigated and responded by booting the reporter.  Assuming that CCP IA are not *complete* idiots, which is more likely: IA punished the reporter because of his contact with a case of BoB/CCP corruption, thereby drastically increasing the chance of exposure, or; IA kicked out the reporter because he was blatantly violating the rules ISD reporters are supposed to follow?

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Slayerik on May 25, 2007, 09:51:58 PM
BoB leadership uses MSN to contact IA in CCP.

IA comes in and boots the reporter from ISD.
Why is IA doing the job of a GM?
Because the ISD reporter was violating the rules, getting into factional pissing matches in local of a battle he was only supposed to be observing, and interfering with the course of that battle, so IA came to boot him out?

--Dave

IA didn't boot the reporter.
Random CCP employee from QA demand he leave.

We seem to have two different tales here, I'll reread it to make sure I'm not way off base here...

Don't worry, Dave is always on a different page cause he's leet ;) Its kinda nice having the BoB representitive in here though, keeps it "fair and balanced". Just like EvE!



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 25, 2007, 09:56:09 PM
IA kicked out the reporter because he was blatantly violating the rules ISD reporters are supposed to follow?
--Dave

It not really clear on that point.
Quote
Me: "So I guess a BoB director claiming he has CCP buddies at his beckon call, and the fact that said buddy showed up 40 sec later, will raise some heads at CCP?"
Boss: "Oh, I think it already has...."
Me: "Well, at least something good will come from all this mess..."
Boss: "We have his IP address."
Boss: "He's posting from CCP, he's Staff."
Boss: He's in the QA department...."
*after long pause*
Boss: Well, I'll tell you how this goes tomorrow, take care, Rae..."

I signed off.

Turns out, within 3 hours, every ISD-related account I had was banned.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Drogo on May 25, 2007, 10:02:23 PM
Well Dianabolic has at least proved that one of the three accusations brought to light are true. BoB does have a bat phone to the devs and can have people dealt with without the need of filing a petition. I wonder if someone can get him to comment on the other two accusations. If someone could get him to post a little more I bet all the dirty laundry could be hung out to dry.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 10:22:52 PM
One thing I would agree is that the RP Events program is systematically corrupt.  Not just in favor of BoB, but nearly every major event.  Somewhere along the way the line between sharing info so people could RP the event properly, and blatantly rigging the results, got crossed, and the program has never looked back.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 10:29:43 PM
CCP are trying to spin it to say the dev joined the goonswarm capital corp Darkstar1 and gave himself director level access to fix a pos bug.  Only thing is according to the CEO of darkstar1, when he joined they only had 2 small pos and neither had modules fitted, it's also been stated that nobody in darkstar1 filled a petition for any kind of bug.
Ummm....  Reality check here: If Darkstar 1 had only small POS, then they didn't have any capital shipyards. I don't think a small POS has the power/CPU to mount one.  And nobody would build a supercap in a small, even if you could, because it wouldn't be able to defend itself.  Maybe a medium, as a bit of misdirection.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Merusk on May 25, 2007, 10:31:54 PM
So what's more likely: A company already caught with one hand in the cookie jar is digging in with the other hand, or a group with an axe to grind manufactured a situation?

How about choice #3, said axe-grinders manufactured a situation that would shine the light on the cookie jar just in time to see that hand dipping in.

See, that's the one I'd go with.  People who pay money to CCP are tools at this point, really.

The game is corrupt, the system is broken. You all lose.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 25, 2007, 10:36:29 PM
After reading dianabolics comments about how its not a bid deal they have a 'bat phone' to devs, I'm starting to think that this may have started due to the smallish community that Eve-online once had. 

Or maybe CCP just doesn't see things like other MMOs have in regards to dev/player relations.
I remember a few years back when furor made a single post on the foh forums & the wow community exploded.
How do you think they would react if they found out a few guilds had wow devs on MSN ready to help with any issues they encountered on a raid?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 10:40:46 PM
The Darkstar situation is a non-starter.  The ISD reporter looks like a setup to me.  The RP Events thing looks substantive, and is a prime example of why you shouldn't run such things with volunteers, but for exactly that reason it doesn't mean CCP is corrupt.  And *all* of it becoming public now, at once, is The Mittani trying to manufacture outrage to save the Coalition.  That's my bet, anyway.  This may seem like tin-foil hattery towards The Mittani, but I've seen just how byzantine his plots can get.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 25, 2007, 10:45:52 PM
CCP are trying to spin it to say the dev joined the goonswarm capital corp Darkstar1 and gave himself director level access to fix a pos bug.  Only thing is according to the CEO of darkstar1, when he joined they only had 2 small pos and neither had modules fitted, it's also been stated that nobody in darkstar1 filled a petition for any kind of bug.
Ummm....  Reality check here: If Darkstar 1 had only small POS, then they didn't have any capital shipyards. I don't think a small POS has the power/CPU to mount one.  And nobody would build a supercap in a small, even if you could, because it wouldn't be able to defend itself.  Maybe a medium, as a bit of misdirection.

--Dave

According to the CEO of darkstar1, when the dev joined they only had 2 small pos and neither had modules fitted.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 10:56:08 PM
And it took a CCP employee spying for BoB, risking his job, 14 minutes to figure that out (Directors can get that information in seconds)?  That's more believable than that he really was a QA employee trying to investigate a problem that couldn't be duplicated on Sisi?  Like I said, a non-starter.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: ajax34i on May 25, 2007, 11:03:18 PM
Haven't played the game in a long time, and I've stopped reading the boards 2 months ago.  I think the reporter may have been an ass, and also BoB got speedy intervention / response from CCP officials.  It's fishy on both sides.

I think that CCP's way of manipulating their game is... different.  Most MMO devs go about it by nerfing whatever they don't like, and buffing whatever they do, but with EVE I imagine it would be difficult to "nerf" a particular set of players (an alliance, f.ex) without nerfing everyone; nerfs to gear or game mechanics won't affect BoB alone, or the Goons alone, etc.  So, in my opinion, the way they control the game is this "conspiracy" whereby devs hold positions of power within alliances and affect politics.  You want to prevent one alliance from taking over the server...  it would be the way to do it.

Except, it might have started that way, good intentions and all that, but they made "friends" and now the friends are abusing the friendships, and the leaks are causing negative publicity.  All publicity is good publicity, but shrug, it's still a bad image.

Bottom line, for me, EVE is an old game, buggy and not that interesting to me anymore, and whose devs are already working on the next MMO.  I probably won't play this next MMO of theirs.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 25, 2007, 11:03:59 PM
And it took a CCP employee spying for BoB, risking his job, 14 minutes to figure that out (Directors can get that information in seconds)?  That's more believable than that he really was a QA employee trying to investigate a problem that couldn't be duplicated on Sisi?  Like I said, a non-starter.

--Dave

Directors can see how many pos's your alliance has?  You think that's why he gave himself director rights?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Drogo on May 25, 2007, 11:10:15 PM
The Darkstar situation is a non-starter.  The ISD reporter looks like a setup to me.  The RP Events thing looks substantive, and is a prime example of why you shouldn't run such things with volunteers, but for exactly that reason it doesn't mean CCP is corrupt.  And *all* of it becoming public now, at once, is The Mittani trying to manufacture outrage to save the Coalition.  That's my bet, anyway.  This may seem like tin-foil hattery towards The Mittani, but I've seen just how byzantine his plots can get.

--Dave

Honestly, I do not know if CCP is doing under the table stuff or not, but so far all the information I have read on several forums points to a smoking gun of CCP employees doing bad things.

The ISD reporter may not have been objective, but BoB getting him banned without filing a petition is dead wrong. A BoB member has openly admitted they contact devs through MSN and not through petitions. This is a serious problem for a PvP game that should theoretically supply an even playing field.

The Darkstar situation may be a non-starter, but we do not know that yet since Darkstar claims it did not have a problem with its POS, did not petition for help with a POS, the GM did not inform them he was going to join their corp, he had no reason to make himself a director of their corp, he had no reason to hide his joining his corp but apparently hid it in a way so that only his resignation was noticed, the petition asking what he was doing in the corp was deleted without response and in game questions to him about the situation went unanswered. There may be a perfectly legitimate reason for what he did, but the way everything was handled definitely sounds fishy if nothing else.

I am surprised that you actually acknowledge that the rigging of RP events may have been a bad thing, but then you try to blame it all on the volunteers as if CCP had no idea how its RP events were run and if they were rigged. Do you really think RP events were rigged completely by volunteers with CCP never having a clue? I am sorry, but I cannot for a second conceive that you actually believe that.

Everything posted so far seems to point that CCP was caught with its hand in the cookie jar again and your defense of CCP just does not ring true.

Edited: Removed questions about his being a developer, actually took the time to look up Orbis Games. Also took out degrading remarks, BoB has the right to give their opinion too. Plus I should know better than to take pot shots at other posters.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress. Fourm flames. Spies. Scandel.
Post by: Reign on May 25, 2007, 11:15:13 PM
Just some food for thought--

I've always believed in player content, but I've also witnessed many times where player politics were handled on a knee-jerk reaction mechanism, instead of more "deep" reasons. I don't want to go into huge details, but in SB, I ran an entire nation based on a lore story to inject "logical" (or at least consistent) diplomacy into our server---do this, the Church (our nation) will support you. Do that, the Church will hunt you down.

People may not have liked the Church, but in retrospect a lot of people liked the fact that we existed--it added meaning to conflicts instead of simple random ganking. Many other servers tried to do that type of "meaningful pvp", and some succeedeed, and some failed.

What I garnered out of those 6+ months of "research" is that there is actually quite a strong benefit in the long run to a game's sustainability (given world changing capability of any form, based on player action) if there is controlled, planned "guidance" (read that as interation and leadership) from paid game "devs"--actually paid players, on staff--that directly interact with each shard/game world/whatever under a long term plan that is tailored for the dynamics of that server.

In other words, done right, I think that not only is the company playing their own game good, but in fact if done well adds quite a bit to the game's fun factor and long term viability.

I'm kind of with Stephen Zepp here....If I was currently an EVE subscriber (I cancelled my account last year from boredom), I would immediately start organizing the underdogs of the server in an attempt to form a coalition against BoB..It makes it more intriguing that you have one, massive juggernaut ruling the systems that needs to be taught a few lessons...All you need is a few rag tag, run and gun victories to build momentum and a good recruiting campaign, and youll have yourself a rivalry, and then a full scale war before too long...Hell Im tempted to re-activate my account and join one of their enemies now... ; )


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: bhodi on May 25, 2007, 11:15:43 PM
Every game on the planet's devs have played their own games. There are WoW guilds with pocket devs, UO devs, and I'm sure LoTR has devs who play. I know devs watched the leading WoW guild death and taxes try to take down kel'thuzad and worked directly with them to try and patch it when it bugged. I'm not sure why you are are trying to imply this is unusual or negative in any way. MSN over petitions? BFD. You probably missed this when it came up earlier; there is no way to stop devs from playing their own game, nor should there be. Also, any 'red name' has their current company displayed under their avatar.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: LC on May 25, 2007, 11:22:03 PM


Don't worry, Dave is always on a different page cause he's leet ;) Its kinda nice having the BoB representitive in here though, keeps it "fair and balanced". Just like EvE!



Two of us versus several dozen of you is balanced? Sounds like proper goonfleet math to me.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: LC on May 25, 2007, 11:24:58 PM
And it took a CCP employee spying for BoB, risking his job, 14 minutes to figure that out (Directors can get that information in seconds)?  That's more believable than that he really was a QA employee trying to investigate a problem that couldn't be duplicated on Sisi?  Like I said, a non-starter.

--Dave

It's amazes me that people don't realize a GM could get information like that without joining the corp. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: agathon on May 25, 2007, 11:28:21 PM
See, this is what happens when you cannot get out of your ship and walk on honest-to-goodness terra firma - everyone goes crazy.

Someone tell CCP it is time for an NGE.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 25, 2007, 11:29:33 PM

I am sorry I do not post here much and you have a dev label, but I am not sure who you are a dev for and I would honestly like to know.

My unofficial and possibly partially incorrect biography of MahrinSkel -

He was the economy system designer of DAOC and later worked as head design honcho on a game called Wish that never made it to release. He now works for Orbis Games, which publishes (among a couple of other things) Virtual Horse Ranch for the casual pre-teen+ female demo, which is smart because it's one of the fastest growing and one of the most underserved. See Pogo, yo?

He likes to post and loves to debate/argue, which has great synergy with what he's currently doing because I doubt there's many "OMFG U NERFED MY CLYDESDALE WTF DIAF" comments to send him into a fit of apoplexy.

I often disagree with his design opinions, but always respect them. I also often disagree with his non-design opinions, but because his design ones are always well thought out, I feel compelled to grudgingly respect them as well.

You should too.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Drogo on May 25, 2007, 11:33:58 PM
Thanks Sutro for the more complete Dev bio on him. That is what I was originally looking for in my post.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 25, 2007, 11:44:12 PM
Yeah, don't think that Mahrin works for CCP, because if he did every board with the word tritanium in it would be lit up with 1500+ word count macroeconomic essays.  :-D

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Kail on May 25, 2007, 11:45:33 PM
Two of us versus several dozen of you is balanced? Sounds like proper goonfleet math to me.

How many of you are in Goonfleet?  I didn't think there were more than two or three.

The rest of us are just sitting on the sidelines.  I personally am unsubbed, partly because of this kind of thing, and partly because of CCP's wierd responses to it.  So I don't really care if BoB or the Goons manage to take over teh univarse.  But from the sidelines, it does look fishy, at least, with the limited information I've got (and I'm grateful for Mahrin being willing to take a few lumps to show the other side of the coin).  But it definitely looks odd to me, and this isn't the first time it's happened, and I still don't see anything from CCP that sounds like they're taking it seriously.  And BoB players cutting in with "The Devs only give us special consideration because we're friends" is not helping my view of things.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 25, 2007, 11:55:52 PM
Directors can see how many pos's your alliance has?  You think that's why he gave himself director rights?
Any member of the alliance can see which POS's you have in systems with Sovereignty (which capital yards must have), unless the alliance officers are fanatical about deleting those emails (they get sent to the Alliance mail list).  I've seen that done in particular cases, when we didn't want a spy to know a new System Defense POS had gone up.  But it only works if the spy is offline when the email goes out.

Any member of a corp can see all production facilities under the control of that corp and what they're building, you don't have to be a director (that's why the BoB logistics corp in F-T had only 6 members).  And as LC pointed out, the stuff is all a database, I'm sure a well-crafted SQL query could have given him any information on the POS he wanted.  All of that amounts to "a CCP employee surreptitiously joined a corp that once talked about building supercaps, he must have been spying for BoB!"

I'm more defending CCP than BoB.  Although I will say that the goon portrayal of BoB as a bunch of cheaters that will do anything for an edge doesn't match up with the scrupulous adherence to their agreements that I've seen in my direct interactions with them.  If I really thought that BoB was systematically cheating, if the evidence was there, I'd be right with you.  But what I've seen is a lot of stew from very little oyster, for in-game diplomatic purposes.  If the goons really *believed* their rhetoric about BoB cheating with the active collusion of CCP, they'd have all quit by now rather than play a rigged game.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 26, 2007, 12:24:36 AM
I'm happy to see what CCP's response is. 

I don't buy the a "well-crafted SQL query could have given him any information on the POS he wanted" argument because admins are lazy and gui's are designed to be easy.  I have no idea what the dev was doing in goonswarm, but if it was entirely innocent, then at the very least it looks like bad judgement to close/delete the petition and not reply in-game when asked about it by the CEO.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Krakrok on May 26, 2007, 01:29:19 AM

Who gives SQL access to their $10/h QA employees?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Chenghiz on May 26, 2007, 02:15:20 AM
Directors can see how many pos's your alliance has?  You think that's why he gave himself director rights?
If the goons really *believed* their rhetoric about BoB cheating with the active collusion of CCP, they'd have all quit by now rather than play a rigged game.

--Dave

They want to beat BoB just as badly as BoB wants to beat them. Quitting wouldn't accomplish that, and goons are not some sort of hive mind to all make the exact same decision regarding the practices of CCP.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Polysorbate80 on May 26, 2007, 02:16:42 AM
The company needs to take a step back, regroup, and develop those professional skills a bit more thoroughly.  Official lines of communication and corporate policies/procedures are set up for a reason, part of which is to avoid impropriety (or even just the appearance of it).

I understand the pressure and the temptation to cut corners to "help out", but sooner or later it inevitably bites you on the ass.  It's just not worth it in the long run.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Lightstalker on May 26, 2007, 02:18:25 AM
I'm happy to see what CCP's response is. 

I don't buy the a "well-crafted SQL query could have given him any information on the POS he wanted" argument because admins are lazy and gui's are designed to be easy.  I have no idea what the dev was doing in goonswarm, but if it was entirely innocent, then at the very least it looks like bad judgement to close/delete the petition and not reply in-game when asked about it by the CEO.

Lazy admin cheaters just write a script to dump the table of entries showing location + interesting thing under construction...  because this isn't the first time they've wanted that information.

Petitions and in-game replies could be ignored because:
    1) Not a PR guy
    2) No good way to reply to all individual messages at once
    3) Proper action means paperwork and most of all
    4) It is Friday and someone doesn't want to be at work any longer than they have to
    5) All of the above
There are ready and plausible explanations for the reported behavior without this being Dev cheating - not that we know either way.  Plenty of drama though, and "cheating devs" sure plays better across the interweb. 


I think the RP event scripting thing is a natural consequence of the medium and the revelation that the outcomes are scripted is just poor expectation setting all around that program.  Custom tailored events take time to set up, put in the proper scope, and arrange participation on both the hero and villain sides.  That kind of effort can't be put into an event that might suddenly not occur or may occur in such a way as to block the rest of the planned events.  The whole thing doesn't scale well in to begin with.  Something like this was tried in Shadowbane and the players turned it into "Whack the Feature Character for phat loot" or gank the group in the event because I wasn't the star of the show.  It produces a dissimilar level of service across a playerbase that pays the same monthly rate, which raises understandable complaints.  Setting the expectation early that events have an intended outcome that is not, entirely, decided by the players might keep folks from freaking out when an unexpected outcome does occur and no one leading the event knows what to do next.  I wonder if there is room in player's hearts for a scripted world that periodically resets where players can cycle through the factions to experience all sides of each conflict.  Not everyone enjoys being the plucky, but doomed, opposition to the other guys hero and that is what is required of most custom tailored Event Team events.


Quote
Who gives SQL access to their $10/h QA employees?
Folks who realize someone else can work the crappy hours while they go polish their Porsche and hang out on the beach?
Some part of QA probably has more access than the average dev since they need to get in and validate behaviors and look for side effects instead of just accepting that the game doesn't fall down anymore when you push that button.  And of course, not all QA are spider monkeys.




Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 26, 2007, 04:04:23 AM
Well Dianabolic has at least proved that one of the three accusations brought to light are true. BoB does have a bat phone to the devs and can have people dealt with without the need of filing a petition. I wonder if someone can get him to comment on the other two accusations. If someone could get him to post a little more I bet all the dirty laundry could be hung out to dry.
Dave, taking off your 'Fixion' hat for a while and putting on your 'Red Name' one - is one of the powerhouse alliances in game, and one that's already been tainted by Dev corruption previously, having a direct line to the development team for a game that's been live for four years and counting a Good Thing?

Especially as said alliance seems to have enough clout with the devs and GMs to do things like get ISD volunteers dismissed as will.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 26, 2007, 05:02:25 AM
Dave, taking off your 'Fixion' hat for a while and putting on your 'Red Name' one - is one of the powerhouse alliances in game, and one that's already been tainted by Dev corruption previously, having a direct line to the development team for a game that's been live for four years and counting a Good Thing?

Especially as said alliance seems to have enough clout with the devs and GMs to do things like get ISD volunteers dismissed as will.
If it was my shop, said QA employee would be getting called in for a little talk.  I'd crank "Command Voice" up to eleven and give him an asschewing they'd hear in Greenland.  You use your backchannels to gather information that is useful to *you* and it's understandable if some information leaks back the other way.  But you don't let your backchannel contacts use you to bypass disciplinary procedures.

I wouldn't say they got him dismissed "at will", more that they caught him off-base and he paid the consequences.  But the QA guy should have told them to go through channels.

As for the Direct Line....  There were people in Camelot that effectively had my "direct line".  The ones that tried to use it as a way to get over on the other players got a permanent block on my IM.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Comstar on May 26, 2007, 05:36:32 AM
In the officially allowed eve o thread (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=526462&page=40)

A quick recap and more news from the same thread:
Quote
- A corp in Goonswarm discovers that Sharkbait joined their corp, made himself director, then left after 20 minutes. Petitions regarding the issue were closed/deleted with no explanation offered.
- A former ISD reporter came forward about an instance where a BoB member ordered him to leave a system, threatening to get his CCP buds on MSN to do something if he didn't. Said ISD reporter was almost instantly reprimanded in private channels, and later banned. Said ISD reporter also claims that many RP events involving valuable loot/rewards were rigged (an accusation that has been around for some time). This entire section is probably the most distressing, but also subject to the most bias (comes from a fired volunteer).
- Lack of response from CCP to these issues prompts Goon threadnaught. Multiple characters are temp-banned, gagged in-game, and outright banned. Forums pulled down.
- Forums return, with Ark's news post "addressing" the issue. Discussion limited to this thread.
- Diabolic outright admits to having private communication access (such as MSN, see the ISD reporter incident) to devs/GMs in this thread, and says that it's Goons fault they aren't e-bffs with CCP.
- After all the gagging on the issue, mere hours later GM Kutsu openly discusses his personal opinion in Jita local. When petitioned about how inappropriate this is, he himself responds to the petition and closes it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trippy on May 26, 2007, 06:49:55 AM
:popcorn:

Edit: fixed smiley


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: tkinnun0 on May 26, 2007, 07:48:31 AM
Quote
- After all the gagging on the issue, mere hours later GM Kutsu openly discusses his personal opinion in Jita local. When petitioned about how inappropriate this is, he himself responds to the petition and closes it.

This just illustrates CCP's systematic inability to Do The Right Thing. Is it possible for a company to participate in their own game and have a non-abusive relationship with their customers when the game is all about abusing others?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 26, 2007, 08:11:23 AM
I'm happy to see what CCP's response is. 

I don't buy the a "well-crafted SQL query could have given him any information on the POS he wanted" argument because admins are lazy and gui's are designed to be easy.  I have no idea what the dev was doing in goonswarm, but if it was entirely innocent, then at the very least it looks like bad judgement to close/delete the petition and not reply in-game when asked about it by the CEO.

Lazy admin cheaters just write a script to dump the table of entries showing location + interesting thing under construction...  because this isn't the first time they've wanted that information.


So he can't have been cheating because he's not very good at it?  k


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 26, 2007, 08:40:35 AM
Quote
- After all the gagging on the issue, mere hours later GM Kutsu openly discusses his personal opinion in Jita local. When petitioned about how inappropriate this is, he himself responds to the petition and closes it.

This just illustrates CCP's systematic inability to Do The Right Thing. Is it possible for a company to participate in their own game and have a non-abusive relationship with their customers when the game is all about abusing others?
Blizzard apparently doesn't think so, judging from this post (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=526462&page=44#1311) by an ex-employee of theirs:
Quote
This is the first and probably only post on eve-o I'll ever make, as I've never been much of a "Game X Forums" kind of guy, but I had to say this.

As an ex-Blizzard employee, I am flabbergasted at the extent to which developer presence contaminates the player pool. With WoW there wasn't a line between our player accounts and our personal accounts- there was a wall, a moat, a spike-filled trench, and electrified barbed wire. You so much as tried to enter a developer command into the console, you'd be kicked from the server, your account would be flagged, and unless you had a really damn good rason for attempting to bring developer capabilities into the game your ass was fired. You told no one anything about the game behind the curtain, you never told anyone in-game that you even worked for the company, or your ass was fired. The impetus for crossing that line in eve is entirely beyond me.

And don't start for a second with "We need to see how things work." Rubbish. You've got one of the most robust test servers known to MMOs, you've got ridiculously fluid interaction from your player base (At least from the bottom-up) and if nothing else you could have internal servers to try things on. Having anyone with even the possibility of developer powers in the public server is nothing short of madness. Having powers above and beyond normal players, or having access to information beyond the average player, is akin to putting water in chocolate- a single drop can cause a whole batch to sieze and it's ruined just like that.

"But what about GMs?" you ask. Fair enough, they need certain powers to set things right. But they should only ever exist in the game when no other option presents itself. They should be invisible, intangible, a last resort for a coding malfunction or dispute that requires GM omniscience to solve. They should not be people but a service, identifiable only to the point that they can be held accountable for their actions. If you tried to log in as a GM account anywhere but at Blizzard's GM center, hell, if you even hinted that you had a GM account, you'd be canned so fast your head would spin. That CCP would willingly and intentionally contaminate the public player base with what amounts to demi-gods with varying degrees of moral fortitude just boggles my mind.

The thing is, I know some CCPers here on the american side of things, people I've worked with in the past, and I just feel so sorry for them. I just want to say to them, "What the hell is going on over there? What kind of people are you working for?" but I know it isn't their fault.

Bottom line, CCP doesn't care. What exactly they don't care about, I'm not sure; it could be that they don't care about people being in a position to abuse powers beyond what normal paying customers can do, or it could be that they don't care about the effect establishing an Old Boy's Club with their closest pals has on the rest of the game, or it could be any number of things. But the inevitable conclusion is that there is some aspect of the past and current troubles that they are simply turning their noses up at.

The sad thing is, I left WoW for EvE because despite all the work I had put into it, EvE struck me as the superior product. Ironically, I was half wrong and half right. Eve has the potential to be a superior product, but this kind of customer relations seems to spit in the face of everyone who wants to play a game with a firm set of established rules applicable throughout the playerbase.


Edit: And thanks for the answer, Dave. :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 26, 2007, 08:42:28 AM
- After all the gagging on the issue, mere hours later GM Kutsu openly discusses his personal opinion in Jita local. When petitioned about how inappropriate this is, he himself responds to the petition and closes it.

Do you have a link to this bit?  I know that, technically, I could read the whole thread to find it but, you know.. :eve-o:  :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: LC on May 26, 2007, 09:14:42 AM
Well Dianabolic has at least proved that one of the three accusations brought to light are true. BoB does have a bat phone to the devs and can have people dealt with without the need of filing a petition. I wonder if someone can get him to comment on the other two accusations. If someone could get him to post a little more I bet all the dirty laundry could be hung out to dry.

(http://shp.shortweb.com/bdkd.jpg)

When I joined BoB I was given an 800 number I can call to have T2 BPOs delivered to my hangar.

You guys are a bit paranoid. This is all a goon leadership scheme to distract it's members from their internal problems.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trippy on May 26, 2007, 09:27:28 AM
Quote
- After all the gagging on the issue, mere hours later GM Kutsu openly discusses his personal opinion in Jita local. When petitioned about how inappropriate this is, he himself responds to the petition and closes it.
This just illustrates CCP's systematic inability to Do The Right Thing. Is it possible for a company to participate in their own game and have a non-abusive relationship with their customers when the game is all about abusing others?
Blizzard apparently doesn't think so, judging from this post (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=526462&page=44#1311) by an ex-employee of theirs:
WoW isn't the same sort of the game that EVE is, but even so like the above poster said, Blizzard takes this sort of thing very seriously. Right after WoW launched one employee used his influence to get some forum posts deleted and some people banned for attacking the Guild that he ran. When that was discovered his guild was deleted and he simply vanished off the face of the Internet, never to be heard from again.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Morat20 on May 26, 2007, 10:40:49 AM
WoW isn't the same sort of the game that EVE is, but even so like the above poster said, Blizzard takes this sort of thing very seriously. Right after WoW launched one employee used his influence to get some forum posts deleted and some people banned for attacking the Guild that he ran. When that was discovered his guild was deleted and he simply vanished off the face of the Internet, never to be heard from again.
It's rumored his toon is trapped forever in an instance of the Stockade -- the closest thing to Hell the Blizzard staff has ever devised. His real body has never been found.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 26, 2007, 11:52:46 AM
I love Dianabolic.  He is the GIA's best agent.  I think he may even be a Mitanni alt.  There's no danger of the Eve-O hordes failing to believe this stuff when our Dianabolic is happily boasting that, hey, of course it's true.  Dammit, he earned those dev numbers and has the sore knees to prove it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sir Fodder on May 26, 2007, 01:08:33 PM
The first time I witnessed an instance of staff abuse in UO (in '97) my little heart broke, but I got over it and kept playing the game. After witnessing a few more instances of rather unethical GM/volunteer behavior in UO I realized that it was rampant, whoop dee doo, big deal. The thing I always found hilarious though were the dismissive and sarcastic comments made regarding favoritisim by high profile and "important" members of the community (some well respected in these circles to this day), as if the rampant favoritisim was simply a delusion of jilted fanboys. I think it is safe to assume that this sort of stuff is going on in just about every MMO, some are just better at keeping it under wraps.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Merusk on May 26, 2007, 01:45:57 PM
The first time I witnessed an instance of staff abuse in UO (in '97) my little heart broke, but I got over it and kept playing the game. After witnessing a few more instances of rather unethical GM/volunteer behavior in UO I realized that it was rampant, whoop dee doo, big deal. The thing I always found hilarious though were the dismissive and sarcastic comments made regarding favoritisim by high profile and "important" members of the community (some well respected in these circles to this day), as if the rampant favoritisim was simply a delusion of jilted fanboys. I think it is safe to assume that this sort of stuff is going on in just about every MMO, some are just better at keeping it under wraps.

Given the unprofessional nature of MMO studios as a whole, only a fool would say you were incorrect.  What gives me chuckles here is the folks so willing to rationalize any behavior one way or the other, based on their 'side.' 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Lum on May 26, 2007, 01:58:47 PM
The posting by the ex-Blizzard GM tracks with the Acceptable Use Policies most MMO companies have. They're almost all identical - never log into a live server with extra access unless it's strictly necessary for your job, various levels of "don't tell people you work for the company" (which are ignored more often than not, since people like to talk, but do usually serve to prevent trading on your position for in-game favors), and above all never, never, ever affect in-game play with your knowledge and/or abilities gained outside the game itself.

I'm somewhat surprised that CCP would ever have GMs log into the game visibly. When I was at a seminar with some CCP folks they were quite proud of the fact that the game could essentially be played completely from a SQL client. Most games today have specialized CS tools (writing one of these was my first job for Mythic, actually) that keep GMs from having to actually log into the game to do their jobs... it's a lot quicker to have a centralized tool to talk to players, examine data, etc. Now, if a GM wanted to mad cheatz0r for his friends by looking up factory builds or whatever, there's no reason why he'd ever need to be visible to players to do that. He should be able to analyze that level of data without ever logging in.

Of course I'm completely talking out of my ass, and have no idea what level of tool support Eve has, or what AUP they have. But they do seem to have a problem - at a bare minimum, a problem with perception, if naught else. Which makes that last little tidbit - a GM smacktalking in public chat - so worrisome. In any game whatsoever that would be utterly, utterly beyond the pale. In Eve given the current hullaballoo, it's either malicious rumormongering or it's suicidal.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 26, 2007, 02:13:42 PM
Talk about setting yourself up: CCP Admiral Cham is the guy accused of some of the misconduct...
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7857/hhhhaaaaaajj0.jpg

I think this is going to boil down to two basic questions.
-Is the fact that BoB leadership has a direct instant line to CCP employees 'a bad thing' for the longterm health of the game?
And
-Has dev/BoB friendships interfered with the game?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Slayerik on May 26, 2007, 03:47:06 PM


Don't worry, Dave is always on a different page cause he's leet ;) Its kinda nice having the BoB representitive in here though, keeps it "fair and balanced". Just like EvE!



Two of us versus several dozen of you is balanced? Sounds like proper goonfleet math to me.



You not reading what I said and posting about being outnumbered and superior ...wtf are you talking about? How many incidents need to happen before you decide your boys arent so fuckin squeaky clean. Seriously, anyone wanna buy my 34 mil sp guy? :) The game is slow, and even worse...its slow and corrupt.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 26, 2007, 04:43:13 PM
Talk about setting yourself up: CCP Admiral Cham is the guy accused of some of the misconduct...
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7857/hhhhaaaaaajj0.jpg


He's also the guy that is supposed to have said in local, "have fun shooting D2" to BoB somewhere, I don't have a screenshot for that yet but the below link amused far more than it should have.

http://www.mneh.org/pics/games/eve/heh2.jpg


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Chenghiz on May 26, 2007, 08:35:14 PM
I think blue means dev..
(http://j4cbo.mirror.waffleimages.com/waffleimages/files/a9/a91903b2e03458800f088d9ff25e5e85c0dd272f.jpg)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Furiously on May 27, 2007, 01:55:17 AM
The ones that tried to use it as a way to get over on the other players got a permanent block on my IM.

So - no free pony?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 27, 2007, 02:08:23 AM
No, just a goat.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Venkman on May 27, 2007, 08:02:00 AM
I would think CCP would be VERY controlling of their internal staff after the last fiasco. I feel like BoB is the FOH of Eve, getting the pandering because they're driving the endgame. That doesn't excuse CCP's behavior, of course.

And make no mistake, this isn't one disgruntled soon-to-be-ex employee of CCP. This is all of CCP. For a game as complex and player-directed as Eve to have the shroud of even hinted contrivance is only a bad thing for it and the company behind it.

They're in a tighter spot now too. If they publicly apologize, they'd have to reinstate some accounts, admit errors, and potentially expose a lot of bad things from the past along the way. So they seem to now be hoping this all blows over. They won't gain any accounts this way, but maybe they won't lose many either. The only people leave Eve do so because they don't like the experience anymore and lose interest in their investment. Everyone else, angry or not, remain.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 27, 2007, 10:54:28 AM
This is CCP Sharkbait, the one accused of the illicit behaviour with the DS1 corporation.

http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/a9/a91903b2e03458800f088d9ff25e5e85c0dd272f.jpg

As you can see from his contribution to local chat here, he is a thoroughly professional individual.  I can't see him beiong the sort to abuse his position.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 27, 2007, 11:09:21 AM
 :-o

 :-D

Man, your green goes up to eleven.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Raging Turtle on May 27, 2007, 11:11:48 AM
Nice.  Whereas I got a permanent warning on my account and was muted for a hour after I used the word 'fuck' in local.

Yeah, nothing wrong with CCP staff at all.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Tebonas on May 27, 2007, 11:31:15 AM
They must have made enough money to last for a lifetime, because they certainly don't work towards customer retention.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 27, 2007, 04:03:28 PM
I think this is going to boil down to two basic questions.
-Is the fact that BoB leadership has a direct instant line to CCP employees 'a bad thing' for the longterm health of the game?
Yes, because anyone using a direct line gets no wait times, while anyone else has to wait for hours, days or sometimes weeks to get their petitions answered. With all that whining of the GM dept of flooded queues. How's that not unfair? Especially in a generally unforgiving game like EVE?
Quote
-Has dev/BoB friendships interfered with the game?
For instance T20?

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that this is a single shard game. Devs fucking up and people cheating affects the whole game, not just a slice of it.

Also, Mahrin needs more kool aid.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 27, 2007, 04:08:05 PM
This is CCP Sharkbait, the one accused of the illicit behaviour with the DS1 corporation.

http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/a9/a91903b2e03458800f088d9ff25e5e85c0dd272f.jpg

As you can see from his contribution to local chat here, he is a thoroughly professional individual.  I can't see him beiong the sort to abuse his position.
You should check the crap he wrote and still writes as new CCP employee both in the forums and on IRC. I don't mean just grammar wise, but also content wise. He may have some skills, but at the end, it's just a moron hired as game tester living in Iceland.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trouble on May 27, 2007, 04:22:51 PM
This is CCP Sharkbait, the one accused of the illicit behaviour with the DS1 corporation.

http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/a9/a91903b2e03458800f088d9ff25e5e85c0dd272f.jpg

As you can see from his contribution to local chat here, he is a thoroughly professional individual.  I can't see him beiong the sort to abuse his position.
You should check the crap he wrote and still writes as new CCP employee both in the forums and on IRC. I don't mean just grammar wise, but also content wise. He may have some skills, but at the end, it's just a moron hired as game tester living in Iceland.

Which of course leads back to the question of why the hell was he touching corporations on a live server?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 27, 2007, 04:38:30 PM
Which of course leads back to the question of why the hell was he touching corporations on a live server?
To verify unreported issues, that apparently never existed to beginwith. Which is a wonder in itself already, because usually it takes petition spam/waiting (or a direct line to the developers, durrrrr) to get them to look into things on the live server.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 27, 2007, 04:47:15 PM
Yeah, i got a message from CCP saying that he was responding to a three-day old corporate petition for a non-functioning POS.  The CEO says the PoS's have been working fine and that no petitions occurred.

Working as intended.  Nothing to see.

That said, I still think that this is the least important of the three major issues.  The firing of the ISD bloke at the behest of Orange Species is the one that makes me depressed: mundane, accepted, widespread, don't-see-what's-wrong corruption.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on May 27, 2007, 05:07:05 PM
Sharkbait issue is apure bullshit.

0) CCP employee with direct db access doesn't fucking need to join your corp to spy your titan fetus - he can use his
1) CEO of D1 admitted that their corp was only running two small POS. Nothing to spy there.
2) Director of D1 admitted filling a petition with stuck bpo.
3) There are multiple, independent cases where Sharkbait have joined player corps to verify and resolve bugs.


Goons filed peition and asked dev for help. Then after a month they attempt to frame him into cheating.
We all know Coalition is losing hard ans they are simply trying to create an excuse for losing the war.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 27, 2007, 05:24:06 PM
Thanks for setting my mind at ease Joe. HAY GUYZ! We can all relax! There's no corruption after all.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 27, 2007, 05:25:47 PM
Sharkbait issue is apure bullshit.

0) CCP employee with direct db access doesn't fucking need to join your corp to spy your titan fetus - he can use his
1) CEO of D1 admitted that their corp was only running two small POS. Nothing to spy there.
2) Director of D1 admitted filling a petition with stuck bpo.
3) There are multiple, independent cases where Sharkbait have joined player corps to verify and resolve bugs.


Goons filed peition and asked dev for help. Then after a month they attempt to frame him into cheating.
We all know Coalition is losing hard ans they are simply trying to create an excuse for losing the war.

Thanks for clearing all this up.  Did you PM Oveur himself to make sure of that, or just one of the GMs?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 27, 2007, 05:57:52 PM
He just fired up MSN.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Krakrok on May 27, 2007, 07:13:02 PM

In frozen Iceland MSN fires you up!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Chenghiz on May 27, 2007, 07:18:41 PM
1) CEO of D1 admitted that their corp was only running two small POS. Nothing to spy there.
So the fact he couldn't have found anything proves him not a spy?
Quote
2) Director of D1 admitted filling a petition with stuck bpo.
Not according to him.
Quote
We all know Coalition is losing hard ans they are simply trying to create an excuse for losing the war.
We do? According to whom, exactly? As far as I can tell it's in a bit of a deadlock.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trippy on May 27, 2007, 07:21:57 PM
What's Sharkbait's position at CCP?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Merusk on May 27, 2007, 07:58:43 PM
They must have made enough money to last for a lifetime, because they certainly don't work towards customer retention.

They don't need to work on customer retention.  Look at the people here who actively play.  They'll sling terms like "catass" and "asshat" at PvE game raiders who pull less time in a weekend actively doing stuff then turn around and justify sitting on their asses for 4-8 hours doing NOTHING at a gate camp to 'secure the border.'

Oh no, these guys are so addicted it's not pretty.    CCP could be caught red-handed, and they'd still play.  Goons MIGHT quit, knowing their efforts were futile, but I suspect enough would turn around and join some other corp that didn't have BoB run-ins.   Fuck, Mahrin's in here justifying behaviors he himself said he wouldn't tolerate out of his own employees or players. If that's not an indicator of how fucking addicted they are I don't know what is.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 27, 2007, 08:04:27 PM
We do? According to whom, exactly? As far as I can tell it's in a bit of a deadlock.
According to BoB, we should also be dead, gone and kickboxed from EVE, since the smoske thing.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 27, 2007, 08:05:46 PM
2) Director of D1 admitted filling a petition with stuck bpo.
Not according to him.

There are at least two directors, one talked about a petition with a stuck bpo, he neglected to mention this was back in February according to the other.  The 2nd director refuses to clarify the events on the eve o boards because he is absolutely convinced CCP will ban his account if so much as breaths there.

In summary CCP sharkbait joined darkstar1 because a member of darkstar1 filed a petition, CCP will not release details of the petition & darkstar1 still denies a petition exists.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 27, 2007, 08:33:22 PM
The simple fact is, there's a lot of ambiguity here.  Goons are predisposed to interpret those ambiguities in the worst possible ways, those aligned with BoB in the opposite direction.  Add in that many don't trust the veracity of anything the Goons say, that it's clear that the war is *not* moving in the Goons favor (north collapsing, Omist fallen to BoB) and this is right out of The Mittani playbook, and I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind with this.  This isn't 3 months ago, there isn't anyone left in 0.0 that hasn't already picked a side.  This may boost fading morale for a time, but in the long run if you convince your allies you're right, they'll just give up because if CCP really is rigging the game, what's the point?  The truth is: CCP hasn't done a very good job of disengaging themselves from their original community, hasn't done enough to promote professionalism in their employees, and there's an overall failure to draw a bright line between playing the game and working on the game.  But that there's a systematic conspiracy within CCP to make BoB "win"?

The fact is, it's not true, and the goon leadership *knows* it's not true.  But it's useful propaganda in the short run, and they're desperate.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 27, 2007, 08:48:44 PM
-Has dev/BoB friendships interfered with the game?
For instance T20?

Well yeah, but that was an isolated incident by a rogue dev...right?
I was more thinking along the lines of 'was MSN used to circumvent the official ingame petition systems'.
It appears like it might have, but unless CCP internal affairs is monitoring instant message traffic, I don't think they will ever truely know.


Maybe I'm way off base but don't employees/GMs have varying levels of internal database access?
Meaning that they maybe don't all have full admin access with all dev commands.
If all CCP employees had full access to everything, one guy could have a bad day & shut the whole thing down or worse.

At my workplace, we are not given willy nilly access to the entire database, we are given access to what we will be working on.
Basic security practice.

Maybe that CCP employee doesn't have the ability to simply look into the actual database & had to circumvent that by actually joining the corporation?

I don't work in the MMO industry so maybe one of you guys can answer this...
Are all employees/guides/GMs given the same access to dev commands/database?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 27, 2007, 08:52:58 PM
I think Dave's spot on with his analysis. Not saying it's impossible, but it would be obviously dumb to lend BoB blanket support since they're already winning - EvE is a game that if one corp takes dominance, people start desubbing. It's happened a couple of times in the past. As with all things, the empire does eventually dissolve, but not without loss of population before hand.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 27, 2007, 08:58:30 PM
What's Sharkbait's position at CCP?


Some form of customer service, he's the blue text.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e399/tasadar1/SharkBigger.jpg



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 27, 2007, 08:59:58 PM
Maybe that CCP employee doesn't have the ability to simply look into the actual database & had to circumvent that by actually joining the corporation?

I don't work in the MMO industry so maybe one of you guys can answer this...
Are all employees/guides/GMs given the same access to dev commands/database?
Generally not.  For example, at Mythic I had no direct access at all to the in-game data, except for the ability to make GM characters (and if I showed up on a live server with one, I usually had to explain why to the head of Customer Service).  I did all my datamining on copies of the Herald database (with some fields that were never shown to the players, and cross-referenced against a copy of the Account database).

Also, even if you can play Eve from an SQL front end, I doubt they let anyone do so.  Bad Things can happen if you let people routinely enter their own SQL.  I once deleted the entire Camelot Herald dataset, because I pointed my datamining programs at the wrong server.  That was just inconvenient and embarassing, the same mistake on the live servers would have been a disaster.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 27, 2007, 09:28:07 PM
The simple fact is, there's a lot of ambiguity here.  Goons are predisposed to interpret those ambiguities in the worst possible ways, those aligned with BoB in the opposite direction.  Add in that many don't trust the veracity of anything the Goons say, that it's clear that the war is *not* moving in the Goons favor (north collapsing, Omist fallen to BoB) and this is right out of The Mittani playbook, and I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind with this.  This isn't 3 months ago, there isn't anyone left in 0.0 that hasn't already picked a side.  This may boost fading morale for a time, but in the long run if you convince your allies you're right, they'll just give up because if CCP really is rigging the game, what's the point?  The truth is: CCP hasn't done a very good job of disengaging themselves from their original community, hasn't done enough to promote professionalism in their employees, and there's an overall failure to draw a bright line between playing the game and working on the game.  But that there's a systematic conspiracy within CCP to make BoB "win"?

The fact is, it's not true, and the goon leadership *knows* it's not true.  But it's useful propaganda in the short run, and they're desperate.

--Dave

The rigged RP events and the firing of the reporter via a msn communication from BoB to the devs were brought to light because the reporter contacted the Kugutsumen.  It wasn't the goons who posted about it on eve o, it was a smash member, he posted twice and had his threads deleted.  On the same day darkstar1 who are in (goonswarm but not goonfleet) had posted about the dev joining their corp.

Mittani is taking full advantage of this, but all this hasn't all been created out of thin air as a war tactic.  If CCP put in place a system to ensure members of BoB can't msn their dev buddies to help them, then I'm sure goons would give up every single piece of space they currently own.

BoB do contact devs via msn while playing, the BoB 2nd in command confirmed this.  So saying goon's think there is a systematic conspiracy to make Bob win is um for want of a better word, untrue.  Goons do think individual members of CCP are biased towards their friends in BoB, the past evidence and current issues show that to be true for at least some individuals.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 28, 2007, 04:40:10 AM
The simple fact is, there's a lot of ambiguity here.  Goons are predisposed to interpret those ambiguities in the worst possible ways, those aligned with BoB in the opposite direction.  Add in that many don't trust the veracity of anything the Goons say, that it's clear that the war is *not* moving in the Goons favor (north collapsing, Omist fallen to BoB) and this is right out of The Mittani playbook, and I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind with this.  This isn't 3 months ago, there isn't anyone left in 0.0 that hasn't already picked a side.  This may boost fading morale for a time, but in the long run if you convince your allies you're right, they'll just give up because if CCP really is rigging the game, what's the point?  The truth is: CCP hasn't done a very good job of disengaging themselves from their original community, hasn't done enough to promote professionalism in their employees, and there's an overall failure to draw a bright line between playing the game and working on the game.  But that there's a systematic conspiracy within CCP to make BoB "win"?

The fact is, it's not true, and the goon leadership *knows* it's not true.  But it's useful propaganda in the short run, and they're desperate.

--Dave

Since you're always telling us how BoB and Fix are BFF and exist in a tight-knit, absolutely non-abusive relationship, I am terribly surprised that Dianabolic hasn't seen fit to tell you that at least one of the three issues is undeniably true: that BoB circumvent in-game channels by chatting to their developer friends via phone and IM.  Assuming his line isn't busy as he comlpains about ISD members, you should totally phone him up and ask him why he didn't let you know.

And you, yourself, admit that a second accusation was true: that the RP events are rigged.

So 2/3 of the accusations are true.  That leaves only one in the balance: the DS1 executives say there were no petitions and no bugs, CCP say there were.

And as I'ev said all along, the worst element is the unprofessional relationship between certain, senior BoB players and CCP staff members, to the extent that ISD members lose their positions as a result.  That's what stinks of filth and corruption.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 28, 2007, 04:58:00 AM
About the DS1 thing - the BPO petition was filed in February, and Kieron claims that Sharkbait acted due to a petition filed in early May. Different petition, it seems.
Mind you, Kieron also says that petitions cannot be deleted which is utter bollocks anyway.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on May 28, 2007, 06:04:49 AM
Kieron says a lot when the day's long. His damage control with the last big incident were pure lies, too, then T20 came out of the closet trashing everything kieron said.

Hey Mahrin, how about you stop clamoring about Mittani all day long, because your slave owners aren't exactly better about it. The smoske thing was proof enough. The only difference here is that there aren't our spies leaking all and everything, apart from the unfair CCP fuckups, they can find into EVE-O. Except Kugutsumen, but he's a faggot and not with us.

Also, even if you can play Eve from an SQL front end, I doubt they let anyone do so.  Bad Things can happen if you let people routinely enter their own SQL.
No, but with a game as fragile to change as EVE, you'd think they'd have proper QA and diagnostics tools. Hell, how long is it ago that they introduced POSes? And how long are they ridden with bugs that commonly show? Yet they (supposedly) still have to log into the game, get into your corp, just to be able to take a look at it? That's a load of unprofessional crap in my opinion.

Some form of customer service, he's the blue text.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e399/tasadar1/SharkBigger.jpg
Yeah, someone that professional might surely not be tempted to work for the advantage of one of his friends.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: VickeVire on May 28, 2007, 06:26:16 AM
I don't post much here so you can ignore me as you see fit but anyone thinking it's 'OK' for a small part of the community to have a batphone to the devs cuz they have 'been here making the game better for a long time' needs to step away from the computer and have a sniff of fresh air.

I don't even think a deeper explanation is needed...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 28, 2007, 06:47:46 AM
Spell Check.  Just beside the Post button.

But you make a point.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: VickeVire on May 28, 2007, 07:02:35 AM
Spell Check.  Just beside the Post button.

But you make a point.

thanks, I found some errors :thumbs_up:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Furiously on May 29, 2007, 10:24:10 AM
So - anyone want to buy two timecards? Come on....


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Slayerik on May 29, 2007, 02:31:40 PM
Character sold and transfered!

Now I can just keep up with the f13 Eve drama threads and war updates and I get to be in the best part without the sub!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: d4rkj3di on May 29, 2007, 04:13:21 PM
Mr. Rickey is still pissy and bitter because he lost 3.5 billion ISK fighting against Goonfleet over a year ago. Any posts by him regarding EVE will always be just this side of full blown internet nerd rage meltdown about how his little space toys got broken.

Also, he's from Butte, Montana. HA!

In all seriousness, I'm going to Iceland tomorrow for 5 days to see a guy about a thing, and I'll be sure to ask about EVE drama.

Oh shit, Devswarm ITT!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Lum on May 29, 2007, 10:15:01 PM
Dave's wiping my database still makes me full of NERD FURY.

Oh, and CCP came out with two chainguns blazing in response tonight:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=472

Short version: In their eyes, this was all due to Goonfleet manipulation and they're PISSED. I'm fairly certain I've never seen developers tear into a huge chunk of their users like that before.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Dravalen on May 29, 2007, 10:37:27 PM
Yikes, they do everything short but name goonsquad. They are pissed indeed.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 29, 2007, 10:40:49 PM
Pretty sure they just lost more subs than if they'd ignored it.

The whole "social engineering effort" claim strikes me as very tinfoil.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Comstar on May 29, 2007, 10:48:21 PM
For the benefit of any CCP employees reading this: I am not,  and have never been, a member of goonswarm. You do not need to be a member of one corporation to post on digg, slashdot or anywhere else on the internet, including the 150+ page thread on CCP's own fourms.

Wonder if Remindel (ex-leader of GS and laywer) will defend against the threatened lawsuit.

CCP approves of metagaming, and now they are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find out it's not much fun? ha!

Next time there is a dev scandal in EVE, it'll be like "quick, round up the usual suspects and ban some goons".




Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 29, 2007, 10:54:15 PM
Wouldn't you be?  If this organized smear campaign doesn't cross the line into libel, it's damned close.  The Mittani may have been *too* clever on this one, on several counts:

1) Having set out to make as big a splash as possible, he may very well have set himself and Something Awful up for a lawsuit.

2) The only people *in* the game that are buying it are the goons and some of their allies (not even all of them).  Most of GoonSwarm is not true Goons, they're Eve players who wanted to go into 0.0 and thought a $10 admission fee was better than a 10M SP requirement.  He may wind up debunking his own propaganda just to keep his army from evaporating.

3) A lot of people are being reminded of the real reason Goons play games: To grief, in this case at the developer level.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: ajax34i on May 29, 2007, 11:23:42 PM
It's not social engineering, it's metagaming and politics that involved CCP rather than just regular alliances.  They encouraged this sort of stuff between alliances on their own boards.  The T20 issue created an opening, and their handling of it, as well as their seeming reluctance to sever tiers to player "friends" and delete compromised dev accounts has resulted in this.

Not fun, yeah.  Surprised that they expect their playerbase to behave differently, after all the conditioning.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 12:41:53 AM
It's not social engineering, it's metagaming and politics that involved CCP rather than just regular alliances.  They encouraged this sort of stuff between alliances on their own boards.  The T20 issue created an opening, and their handling of it, as well as their seeming reluctance to sever tiers to player "friends" and delete compromised dev accounts has resulted in this.

Not fun, yeah.  Surprised that they expect their playerbase to behave differently, after all the conditioning.
Certain parallels to the PK/Anti PK of pre-Trammel UO leap inescapably to mind (especially Siege Perilous).  Not to mention the Camel's Nose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_camel%27s_nose) or Broken Windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Windows) when it comes to treating in-game breaches of trust (scamming (http://eve-history.net/wiki/index.php/EIB_scam), corp theft (http://eve.klaki.net/heist/)) as acceptable gameplay.  You let your griefers organize themselves into a community, you treat them like any other organization, and sooner or later you're going to hear "You knew I was a snake when you picked me up, dumbass." (http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/page2.msnw)

--Dave (ain't I just full of the cliches today?)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Megrim on May 30, 2007, 12:54:40 AM
Hey what now? Can someone do a short version of what the Goons are being accused of?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Raging Turtle on May 30, 2007, 12:58:34 AM
Pretty sure they just lost more subs than if they'd ignored it.

The whole "social engineering effort" claim strikes me as very tinfoil.

-Sutro

You lose the subs that 'orchestrated' most of this, and CCP wins. 

While CCP is far from perfect, this was certainly blowing small situations way out of proportion.

Good response, IMO.  But then, I'm rather drunk at the moment.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 01:27:48 AM
Hey what now? Can someone do a short version of what the Goons are being accused of?
Short synopsis:

You're GoonSwarm, an organization that is widely reviled and distrusted in the game, possibly because your recruiting page tells newbies to go out and grief/scam other players.  A year ago, the strongest military power in Eve (Band of Brothers, BoB) declares their intent to remove you from the PvP areas of the game and very nearly succeeds, cutting your numbers in half and driving you to the opposite end of the map to take shelter with the second-strongest military power (Red Alliance), who finds you a useful meatshield.

6 months ago, you whipped up outrage over a year-old scandal involving a senior CCP employee and BoB, when someone hacks their forums and discovers that the employee had created several lucrative assets (known as T2 blueprint originals) for himself and given them to BoB when he was "outed" and forced to quit the alliance.  You also out the leader of RA's primary local enemy as a CCP employee (although not one who can be shown to have abused his position).  Said local enemy collapses, and 2/3 of the PvP population of the game joins a lynch mob to destroy BoB.

Only the war hasn't gone well.  The lynch mob is getting their ass kicked, in fact, and many of the members are trying to cut their own deals with BoB while others are just trying to wander nonchalantly away, whistling.  One whole group representing half of your allies is getting beat like a drum by a small portion of those allied with BoB, while BoB themselves is implacably marching forward against you.  Morale is fading, in-game resources are dwindling, things don't look good.  You desperately need something to stiffen the resolve of your troops and allies, while hopefully dividing the enemy camp.  You need another scandal.

Except....  You've got nothing.  So, you make stuff up.  You take an intermediate working draft of an Event script several months old and point to it as evidence the Event was rigged.  You take a 3-week old case of a GM joining a corp to fix a bug, and get the person who asked for it to happen to agree to say he didn't.  And you get a volunteer for the game to provoke his own termination at the instigation of BoB.  In the process of the last one, you get a gift, one of the BoB leaders says he's got CCP employees in his MSN contacts.  You bring all of this forward during a three-day weekend, sending your hordes of hardened forum warriors out to spam it all over hell and gone while nobody from CCP will be able to coordinate an official response.

That's what GoonSwarm is being accused of.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 30, 2007, 02:12:20 AM
Occam's Razor just disintegrated into its molecular components.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 30, 2007, 02:37:51 AM
Hey what now? Can someone do a short version of what the Goons are being accused of?
Pointing out that there is, in fact, a man behind the curtain.
Also, minor detail: It's not libel if it's true.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 02:50:14 AM
Occam's Razor just disintegrated into its molecular components.
Apparently, so did GoonSwarm (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=528714). unless this is just more forum dramabombs for giggles.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 03:12:08 AM
That's an interesting response from CCP.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ratadm on May 30, 2007, 03:28:16 AM
Occam's Razor just disintegrated into its molecular components.
Apparently, so did GoonSwarm (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=528714). unless this is just more forum dramabombs for giggles.

--Dave
If it's posted on caod and about goons it's true. 

The above text is so green it appears normal.  However at least now caod is a good source of humor rather than terrible alt trolls.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 03:29:46 AM
Fun times ahead.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trippy on May 30, 2007, 04:16:06 AM
I don't see that they addressed the issue where BoB has a direct connect to EVE developers. In other words, to borrow their phrasiing, this:

Quote
It is worth restating here that there is absolutely no categorical CCP preference towards anything that transpires in the EVE political landscape.
Has also been proven FALSE



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ubvman on May 30, 2007, 04:16:45 AM
Hey what now? Can someone do a short version of what the Goons are being accused of?
Short synopsis:

stuff.....

That's what GoonSwarm is being accused of.

--Dave

THAT! is a dang good plan! Really.

Its an attempt to force CCP devs to cut ALL ties to BoB, removing a huge (if not game-winning) resource from BoB.
Even if there is "no meat on the bones" on the allegations, I'm thinking the Goons have the advantage on the Propaganda front. CCP has nothing to complain about, its the gameplay they have designed and encouraged - even if it starts spilling into RL. It makes for really great "roadside crash" entertainment for the rest of us.

BRING ON TEH LAWSUITS I SAY!!!!!1!!  :-D  :evil:  :roll:  :mrgreen: 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 30, 2007, 05:15:04 AM
Comedy, part 1: CCP's repsonse is basically 'We're not cheating because we say we're not. Trust us. Would we lie to you (again)?"
Comedy, part 2: No mention about BoB's self-admitted hotline to the devs, for some reason.
Comedy, part 3: Please CCP, don't throw me into the briar patch start a lawsuit.

And for any BoB/BoB slaves out there - congratulations, you 'won' EVE due to direct help from your friends at CCP. Enjoy the ashes.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 30, 2007, 05:15:57 AM
Hey what now? Can someone do a short version of what the Goons are being accused of?
Short synopsis:

You're GoonSwarm, an organization that is widely reviled and distrusted in the game, possibly because your recruiting page tells newbies to go out and grief/scam other players.  A year ago, the strongest military power in Eve (Band of Brothers, BoB) declares their intent to remove you from the PvP areas of the game and very nearly succeeds, cutting your numbers in half and driving you to the opposite end of the map to take shelter with the second-strongest military power (Red Alliance), who finds you a useful meatshield.

6 months ago, you whipped up outrage over a year-old scandal involving a senior CCP employee and BoB, when someone hacks their forums and discovers that the employee had created several lucrative assets (known as T2 blueprint originals) for himself and given them to BoB when he was "outed" and forced to quit the alliance.  You also out the leader of RA's primary local enemy as a CCP employee (although not one who can be shown to have abused his position).  Said local enemy collapses, and 2/3 of the PvP population of the game joins a lynch mob to destroy BoB.

Only the war hasn't gone well.  The lynch mob is getting their ass kicked, in fact, and many of the members are trying to cut their own deals with BoB while others are just trying to wander nonchalantly away, whistling.  One whole group representing half of your allies is getting beat like a drum by a small portion of those allied with BoB, while BoB themselves is implacably marching forward against you.  Morale is fading, in-game resources are dwindling, things don't look good.  You desperately need something to stiffen the resolve of your troops and allies, while hopefully dividing the enemy camp.  You need another scandal.

Except....  You've got nothing.  So, you make stuff up.  You take an intermediate working draft of an Event script several months old and point to it as evidence the Event was rigged.  You take a 3-week old case of a GM joining a corp to fix a bug, and get the person who asked for it to happen to agree to say he didn't.  And you get a volunteer for the game to provoke his own termination at the instigation of BoB.  In the process of the last one, you get a gift, one of the BoB leaders says he's got CCP employees in his MSN contacts.  You bring all of this forward during a three-day weekend, sending your hordes of hardened forum warriors out to spam it all over hell and gone while nobody from CCP will be able to coordinate an official response.

That's what GoonSwarm is being accused of.

--Dave


Are you fucking kidding ?  That's the most biased shite I've ever read and I used to write copy for the SNP.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 30, 2007, 05:21:19 AM
Actually, I take that back - I've just read the CCP 'findings' and it's worse.

 :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 30, 2007, 05:31:22 AM
Quote
Are you fucking kidding ?  That's the most biased shite I've ever read and I used to write copy for the SNP.
He's not kidding. Reading anything from Mahrin on this issue makes me sympathize with the Goons supposedly terrible "it's just an internet spaceship game" attitude.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 30, 2007, 05:47:37 AM
Actually, I take that back - I've just read the CCP 'findings' and it's worse.

 :-D
The CCP responses is awesome - it's the internet version of mouth going before brain is in gear. If I were actively trying to make the whole thing look like a cover-up & whitewash I couldn't have done a better job.

Seriously; "STFU about our corruption or we'll sue you"? Pure genius.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 06:07:35 AM
Are you fucking kidding ?  That's the most biased shite I've ever read and I used to write copy for the SNP.

I like the SNP  :-P


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: DraconianOne on May 30, 2007, 06:14:04 AM
Comedy, part 2: No mention about BoB's self-admitted hotline to the devs, for some reason.

Lum makes an interesting point on his blog that he used to have some hardcore players listed on his MSN when he was at Mythic because it was helpful to get their view on the game at times.  So it might well be the case with CCP and that's not so bad - if and only if it isn't exclusive to BoB and they have non-BoB player contacts too.

What I'm interested in is their response to the screenies of Sharkbait's apparent unprofessional conduct in IG chat - ASCII art and everything.  I mean, Tseric goes postal on the WoW boards and is no looking for alternative employment.  Sharkbait allegedly gives the EVE playerbase the finger in game with seemingly no consequences.  So either he did and CCP don't care, or the screenies are fabricated.  I'll bet the truth depends on which side of the BoB/GS line you stand.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: LC on May 30, 2007, 06:20:02 AM
ANGRY GOON RESPONSE

I'm sure Eve will be fine without the goons. In fact I'm sure the number of goons quitting will be pretty small. The majority will join other alliances/corps with better leadership. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 06:21:27 AM
DraconianOne, that's was an old screenshot.  

There's no problem having hardcore players on your contact list, however recruiting players from mostly one or two alliances.  Having a dev spawn items for one of those alliances, having a dev lead their capital fleet, GM's piloting titan's and firing reporters because one of those players contacted you on msn is a bit different.  There's a clear bias involved because the devs secretly play the game and can't resist helping their "friends".

It's all out in open now so at least everyone knows where they stand.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 30, 2007, 06:28:25 AM
Quote
While it’s somewhat understandable that the participation of CCP staff in EVE is being questioned once again, our answer must once more be that our involvement is vital to the development of EVE. Barring CCP employees from the game would effectively stop EVE in its tracks. EVE is such a complex application that it is impossible to understand it without participating, playing on the test server is not the full EVE experience, nor is it possible to replicate issues involving our server structure or large amounts of players using it

As I said on Brokentoys, it's this particular CCP bit that really bothers me.  It seems dishonest somehow. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Lightstalker on May 30, 2007, 06:33:20 AM
Quote
While it’s somewhat understandable that the participation of CCP staff in EVE is being questioned once again, our answer must once more be that our involvement is vital to the development of EVE. Barring CCP employees from the game would effectively stop EVE in its tracks. EVE is such a complex application that it is impossible to understand it without participating, playing on the test server is not the full EVE experience, nor is it possible to replicate issues involving our server structure or large amounts of players using it

As I said on Brokentoys, it's this particular CCP bit that really bothers me.  It seems dishonest somehow. 

Probably in that they'd likely learn a great deal more on the losing side of the game... 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 30, 2007, 06:46:49 AM
Are you fucking kidding ?  That's the most biased shite I've ever read and I used to write copy for the SNP.

I like the SNP  :-P

Haha sassenach noobs we run the country now (sort of, and we don't have the votes to do anything, but hey, what we'd do would be stupid anyway).

PS The ongoing Mitanni drama thing is hilarious.  Utterly confusing even with GF access, but hee-layri-us nonetheless.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 06:54:35 AM
Quote
Way to dodge the issue there, arkanon. I'm certain it's easy to call us a bunch of script kiddie hackers when you get to omit, modify, and add details as you see fit.

First, regarding Darkstar 1, we never accused you of anything, we wanted clarification regarding the fact that a GM had entered a corporation and given himself director roles, then left without so much as a convo, evemail, or anything to any member of the corporation. The Original reason given by you, kieron, was that he joined the corporation to deal with a POS petition, which DS1 said was never written. You then decide that it was, in fact, a BPO petition, and accuse DS1 of lying about writing it. You say "You filed a petition regarding a pos", we say "no we didn't", you say, "You filed a petition regarding a BPO" we say, "yeah that happened" and you accuse us of lying, of changing our story, when you're the one who did it.

The second bit was of comparitively little concern, and I have no problems with the ruling on that, and it was never an official stance of the alliance that the events were being rigged in favor of any alliance, just that they were being rigged, but thanks for trying to make the psychotic ramblings of a bunch of eve-o posters our official alliance policy, it's real swell of you.

Third. The third one still stinks to high heaven. Why are players allowed to be in contact with employees of CCP knowingly? More specifically, why are BoB members allowed to do this, and not, well, us. Following Fanfest 2006, GM Eldini, having befriended several corporation members at fanfest, registered an account on our forums for social purposes. A week later, he requested his account be deleted because his job was being threatened if he stayed in contact with us. Dianabolic, however, is allowed to drum up people 6:30 in the morning to deal with his issues in minutes. Is there some rulebook that says "You aren't allowed to register for player forums, but you can talk to everyone on MSN just fine"? If this is the case, could you kindly forward me GM Eldini's contact information, I miss him.

You really paid attention to the symptom instead of the disease here, it's great that he was already a loose cannon and you needed him to turn in his badge and his gun, but the investigation(and dianabolic) uncovered something far more sinister. Are players encouraged to befriend the Employee's of CCP and talk to them outside of Sanctioned areas(like MSN or on a forum) like it would seem to be in dianabolic's case, or are the employee's of CCP forbidden from being in casual contact with the playerbase, like it would seem in ours/GM Eldini's case?

The above is a post from a goon on the feedback thread. 

It really goes to the core of the issue with regard to darkstar1, if a gm had contacted the ceo of darkstar1 before the dev joined the corp (which they have done before) there wouldn't have been a problem.
If Sharkbait had answered in-game why he was in the corp, or if they had replied to the petition asking about it, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Instead CCP said a petition was logged by one of the 200 members of darkstar1 regarding a pos, darkstar1 said that wasn't true.

It now turns out the petition wasn't about a pos but it was about a stuck bpo, which darkstar1 said all along they had logged a petition about back in February.  There's still nobody in darkstar1 taking responsibility for logging a recent petition.

So CCP's response is to basically call them liars and ask why they didn't notice one email out of hundreds recieved on several accounts for 3 weeks, while still refusing to speak to the CEO of the corp at any point in time.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trippy on May 30, 2007, 07:03:32 AM
Comedy, part 2: No mention about BoB's self-admitted hotline to the devs, for some reason.
Lum makes an interesting point on his blog that he used to have some hardcore players listed on his MSN when he was at Mythic because it was helpful to get their view on the game at times.  So it might well be the case with CCP and that's not so bad - if and only if it isn't exclusive to BoB and they have non-BoB player contacts too.
The problem is is that CCP has already been caught cheating in their own game by helping out BoB. At this point they should be bending over backwards to separate themselves from BoB as far as possible -- e.g. the boards should be filled with BoB members whining about how CCP never respond to their petitions anymore. The perception right now, rightly or wrongly, is that BoB is still in bed with various CCP employess and the whole MSN buddy list thing just reinforces that perception.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 30, 2007, 07:43:39 AM
ANGRY GOON RESPONSE

I'm sure Eve will be fine without the goons. In fact I'm sure the number of goons quitting will be pretty small. The majority will join other alliances/corps with better leadership.
I'm assuming that by 'better leadership' you mean 'BoB or their slaves' in this post, because, well, there's not much point in joining any other corps any more. BoB has the devs on speed-dial, an inside line on any changes scheduled to the game (see: BoB requiring their vassals to start supplying outpost eggs as part of their rent months before the sovereignty changes blog was posted), and CCP threatening legal action against anyone trying to uncover this incestuous little relationship.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 30, 2007, 08:05:09 AM
At this point, I think its obvious that the game has become (has been) rigged.
Whats the story on pvp centric games released or to be released 'soon'?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: LC on May 30, 2007, 08:09:50 AM
This is why the goons lost. (http://www.killboard.net/details/163525/) Dev hacks is just another excuse.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 30, 2007, 08:14:07 AM
I find it interesting that those in and close to the game can't seem to get outta the mindset.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Big Gulp on May 30, 2007, 08:31:43 AM
I think it should be obvious to everyone with a couple of brain cells to rub together that CCP is not a company you want to fork over your money to.  Not to say that the Goons are a bunch of saints, but honestly, when you've got company employees rigging their own game to twink out their buddies in a fiercely PVP game and those employees don't get fired?  It's probably best to move on and never touch another one of that company's games, ever.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 30, 2007, 08:33:50 AM
Indeed.  Is that actually you in the avatar ?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 08:36:29 AM
I think it should be obvious to everyone with a couple of brain cells to rub together that CCP is not a company you want to fork over your money to.  Not to say that the Goons are a bunch of saints, but honestly, when you've got company employees rigging their own game to twink out their buddies in a fiercely PVP game and those employees don't get fired?  It's probably best to move on and never touch another one of that company's games, ever.

Yeah hard to argue with that, I'd be a lot more pissed if I hadn't of known what I was getting into.  I started playing because of the last scandal so I only have a couple of months invested.  There's a goon meeting tonight so I'll see what the plan is and if I want to continue, if I do continue I'll be paying for my time with isk, CCP aren't getting another penny from me.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Big Gulp on May 30, 2007, 08:36:45 AM
Indeed.  Is that actually you in the avatar ?

Yep.  I got bored of incestuous dog/cat animal sex.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 30, 2007, 08:37:22 AM
I always find it odd when a poster resembles almost exactly the image you'd made for him in your own head.

Scary.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Big Gulp on May 30, 2007, 08:48:22 AM
I always find it odd when a poster resembles almost exactly the image you'd made for him in your own head.

Scary.


So you already had a vision in your mind of a golden God, who makes women swoon with his mere presence and reduces men to fits of envy?

ETA:  Actually, I don't think I could handle seeing what you look like, Iron.  To me you'll always be the "Kneel before Zod!" guy.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 30, 2007, 08:50:21 AM
I always find it odd when a poster resembles almost exactly the image you'd made for him in your own head.

Scary.


So you already had a vision in your mind of a golden God, who makes women swoon with his mere presence and reduces men to fits of envy?

I thought he meant fuzzy and about an inch tall, with no body below the midriff.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Tebonas on May 30, 2007, 10:15:28 AM
Hmm, you don't look all that different from me. That explains so much! :-D

(http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0f/Mirror_Spock.jpg/180px-Mirror_Spock.jpg)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 30, 2007, 12:00:01 PM
Quote
Apparently, so did GoonSwarm (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=528714). unless this is just more forum dramabombs for giggles.

--Dave

For whoever actually believes that retirement post, I know of a few deposed oil magnates in Nigeria who'd love to speak with you.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 30, 2007, 12:28:18 PM
Ssssh! I've got a whole forum elsewhere (heavy with ex-LV) believing that it's true!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Slayerik on May 30, 2007, 12:31:10 PM
This is why the goons lost. (http://www.killboard.net/details/163525/) Dev hacks is just another excuse.

The reason they lost is they are fighting BoB in their Tech 2 ships that they got from the scandal before? /popcorn

Sure, it was horribly fitted. But a T2/faction carrier is gonna drop to that gang.

Either way, like I said. Account sold. Don't miss it much either. No more of my money to CCP.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Yoru on May 30, 2007, 12:55:37 PM
I go away for a weekend and look what happens. :|


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Furiously on May 30, 2007, 01:36:22 PM
Want to buy some timecards?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 30, 2007, 01:42:50 PM
What the going rate for a 90 day card?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Yoru on May 30, 2007, 01:43:41 PM
Want to buy some timecards?

Dunno. My account currently runs out at the end of July and I'm, for the first time, considering just setting a very long skill and taking a long break. I haven't logged in aside from skill-swapping for two months now. Deep 0.0 is just not so much fun most of the time, what with POS wars and such, and I don't have the time to really invest in the game any more.

If I do continue, I'll probably work towards force recons or something else that doesn't require a large group to participate in or huge time investment to enjoy. I've already got every faction's battleship skill and weapon skills up to decent levels, so I'm getting to a point where there's severely diminishing returns on focused training, and I generally can't afford any of the new toys that progressing upwards would get me - dreads, carriers, HACs and such.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 30, 2007, 02:01:11 PM
Today's CCP comedy post (http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1470&tid=1&sid=709711312).
They're not even trying any more.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: WindupAtheist on May 30, 2007, 02:02:50 PM
This is some great MMO retard drama.  I hope next we get video of a BoB member sitting at a workstation at CCP HQ, mashing keys and screaming "I AM A DARK GOD!" as everyone else in the game spontaneously explodes, with developers jumping up and down and cheering in the background.

I really want to hear Mahrin spin that.  It should be classioc.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: CmdrSlack on May 30, 2007, 02:03:53 PM
Today's CCP comedy post (http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1470&tid=1&sid=709711312).
They're not even trying any more.

Dang, login required.  I was enjoying the popcorn.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: gimpyone on May 30, 2007, 02:06:36 PM
Quote
Greetings,

The so-called "POS Bowling" will from here on be considered an exploit. While it is true that this is not verifiable after the fact by way of logs, GMs are able to go ingame and monitor situations at will, and do it without anyone knowing. If we catch anyone doing this we will take the appropriate action against them. We therefore urge Titan and Mothership pilots to refrain from using their ships to bump ships out of POS forcefields, or risk facing punitive measures for exploiting.

All the best,

GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master
EVE Online Customer Support


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 30, 2007, 02:15:43 PM
This is some great MMO retard drama.  I hope next we get video of a BoB member sitting at a workstation at CCP HQ, mashing keys and screaming "I AM A DARK GOD!" as everyone else in the game spontaneously explodes, with developers jumping up and down and cheering in the background.

I really want to hear Mahrin spin that.  It should be classioc.


 :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: CmdrSlack on May 30, 2007, 02:29:40 PM
Quote
Greetings,

The so-called "POS Bowling" will from here on be considered an exploit. While it is true that this is not verifiable after the fact by way of logs, GMs are able to go ingame and monitor situations at will, and do it without anyone knowing. If we catch anyone doing this we will take the appropriate action against them. We therefore urge Titan and Mothership pilots to refrain from using their ships to bump ships out of POS forcefields, or risk facing punitive measures for exploiting.

All the best,

GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master
EVE Online Customer Support

Ah.  I saw that, was expecting something more nifty than a blurb about bumping.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 02:32:40 PM
He asked for an explanation of what the Goons were accused of, how "unbiased" can an accusation be?  Up until the last paragraph, it was a recitation of facts, although a slanted one.  Being such warm and caring individuals amongst yourselves, I think you have underestimated just how much the goons are disliked in the general Eve population.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Dravalen on May 30, 2007, 02:36:15 PM
Quote
Greetings,

The so-called "POS Bowling" will from here on be considered an exploit. While it is true that this is not verifiable after the fact by way of logs, GMs are able to go ingame and monitor situations at will, and do it without anyone knowing. If we catch anyone doing this we will take the appropriate action against them. We therefore urge Titan and Mothership pilots to refrain from using their ships to bump ships out of POS forcefields, or risk facing punitive measures for exploiting.

All the best,

GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master
EVE Online Customer Support

Ah.  I saw that, was expecting something more nifty than a blurb about bumping.
Consider BoB has been doing this for quite some time it's pretty amusing that they came out just now saying it's an exploit.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 30, 2007, 02:41:58 PM
I live in Empire and am a carebear. I make battleships and sell them to mission runners.

I don't care about 0.0 at all except for how it affects the price of zydrine and megacyte. And yet everything I've heard about BoB for the last two years and their posts on various forums has given me the impression that they're arrogant assholes.

I'm not alone. I don't think you have a clue about just how widely disliked BoB is.

Oh, and I still think CCP is completely out of line. If I were actually paying for my subscription with real money I'd join the exodus from the game.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Nebu on May 30, 2007, 02:43:13 PM
It's interesting to read these discussions about "exploits".  In DAoC people have been lag hacking, circle strafing, lag jumping, window dragging, and every other type of thing they can imagine in order to gain a small advantage on the battlefield.  Mythic's response to date is that they are all "good gameplay".  To see the EvE folks call people on these lame tactics is refreshing to say the least.  


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 03:28:39 PM
I live in Empire and am a carebear. I make battleships and sell them to mission runners.

I don't care about 0.0 at all except for how it affects the price of zydrine and megacyte. And yet everything I've heard about BoB for the last two years and their posts on various forums has given me the impression that they're arrogant assholes.

I'm not alone. I don't think you have a clue about just how widely disliked BoB is.
You should try having them for landlords.  I'm not saying BoB is a bunch of angels, but their excesses are born of in-game sources and expressed in game-related ways, with a certain degree of "honor".  They are engaged in the game, and they're playing "hardcore".  Not the "best sports" in the world, they're pretty poor winners, always rubbing everyone else's nose in it.  Having to *ask* them for permission to anchor our new outposts was pretty damned annoying, even if the permission was nearly a foregone conclusion.

Goons, on the other hand, are playing outside the bounds of the game, for reasons and towards goals that have nothing to do with the game itself.  Their current campaign, from my POV, is the equivalent of trying to flip over the game board because they aren't going to win.  Beyond just being "poor sports", they're trying to ruin the game for everyone, and they take delight in doing so.  They're not attacking the in-game enemy, they're attacking the *game itself*.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 30, 2007, 03:45:10 PM
Quote
Goons, on the other hand, are playing outside the bounds of the game, for reasons and towards goals that have nothing to do with the game itself.  Their current campaign, from my POV, is the equivalent of trying to flip over the game board because they aren't going to win.  Beyond just being "poor sports", they're trying to ruin the game for everyone, and they take delight in doing so.  They're not attacking the in-game enemy, they're attacking the *game itself*.
From my point of view the Goons are attacking BoB, and BoB have made themselves unlovable. Just looking around various forums I don't see the Goons being even half as obnoxious as BoB and their buddies. Oh, and this weird assumption that attacking BoB and its interests is an attack "on the game itself" is just another example of the arrogance that makes most people dislike you.





Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Yoru on May 30, 2007, 03:47:15 PM
Quote
Goons, on the other hand, are playing outside the bounds of the game, for reasons and towards goals that have nothing to do with the game itself.  Their current campaign, from my POV, is the equivalent of trying to flip over the game board because they aren't going to win.  Beyond just being "poor sports", they're trying to ruin the game for everyone, and they take delight in doing so.  They're not attacking the in-game enemy, they're attacking the *game itself*.
From my point of view the Goons are attacking BoB, and BoB have made themselves unlovable. Just looking around various forums I don't see the Goons being even half as obnoxious as BoB and their buddies. Oh, and this weird assumption that attacking BoB and its interests is an attack "on the game itself" is just another example of the arrogance that makes most people dislike you.

I believe that "the current campaign" he mentions is a specific reference to the EveO board "threadnaught" over the weekend, not the war.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 03:55:59 PM
Quote
Goons, on the other hand, are playing outside the bounds of the game, for reasons and towards goals that have nothing to do with the game itself.  Their current campaign, from my POV, is the equivalent of trying to flip over the game board because they aren't going to win.  Beyond just being "poor sports", they're trying to ruin the game for everyone, and they take delight in doing so.  They're not attacking the in-game enemy, they're attacking the *game itself*.
From my point of view the Goons are attacking BoB, and BoB have made themselves unlovable. Just looking around various forums I don't see the Goons being even half as obnoxious as BoB and their buddies. Oh, and this weird assumption that attacking BoB and its interests is an attack "on the game itself" is just another example of the arrogance that makes most people dislike you.

I believe that "the current campaign" he mentions is a specific reference to the EveO board "threadnaught" over the weekend, not the war.
Yes.  Attacking BoB and their allies, even spreading "BoD devsploithax" propaganda inside of the game for strategic and diplomatic purposes, is one thing.  Spreading the "CCP is corrupt" message all over the internet on such thin and ambiguous, if not ouright fabricated, evidence, goes far beyond that.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 30, 2007, 04:27:26 PM
Consider BoB has been doing this for quite some time it's pretty amusing that they came out just now saying it's an exploit.
Actual timeline of this particular saga:

Evil Thug starts POS bowling against BoB, a few months ago.
CCP: This is an exploit, please cease immediately.
ET: Ok, I'll stop.

A couple of weeks pass.

BoB's multiple titan pilots start POS bowling against RA/GS/etc., and stealing ships.
RA/GS/etc: /petition WTF?
CCP: This is not an exploit, and we will not punish anybody for it.
Evil Thug: All righty then *starts stealing multiple BoB ships via POS bowling*

A week or two passes.

CCP (today): POS bowling is an exploit. Please stop.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 04:34:58 PM
Yes.  Attacking BoB and their allies, even spreading "BoD devsploithax" propaganda inside of the game for strategic and diplomatic purposes, is one thing.  Spreading the "CCP is corrupt" message all over the internet on such thin and ambiguous, if not ouright fabricated, evidence, goes far beyond that.

--Dave

Fabricated?

RP events are rigged, the reporter was fired and showing a screenshot of a petition is nice but they didn't actually deny that orangespecies contacted a dev via msn to get him fired and all his accounts banned in 3 hours, in fact BoB defended using msn to contact their special "friends".  A dev did join a goonswarm corp and it wasn't because of a pos petition like CCP said but due to a bpo petition that's been dragging on since February.  Threads were deleted and people were banned from the forums and from the game for bringing the subject up.

That's epic trolling Dave, you hate goons fine, we are a cancer on eve, fine.  Jesus dude, fabricated?  Goons had nothing to do with the rigged RP or msn stories apart from repeating them.  CCP's own screenshots shows the dev in goonswarm was real.

How exactly was any of this for strategic or diplomatic purposes?  CCP has come right out and called goonswarm a bunch of cunts and threatened legal action.  

There were only two possible outcomes.  Either they cleaned up their act and started to act like every other mmo company and stopped having an unofficial favourite dev alliance in a pvp game or they didn't.  CCP decided playing the game with BoB's expensive virtual toys was more important than a fair playground for all.  At the end of the day it's their game and that's their decision, but lets not kid ourselves that the whole thing doesn't stink to high heaven.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Merusk on May 30, 2007, 04:37:07 PM
In the end, if you're still sending your $15 to CCP after all this, you deserve whatever exploits friend-bias and one-sided item returns reign down on you.

Sell your accounts, and move on.  Playing fucking yahoo checkers makes more sense at this point.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 04:41:31 PM
I'm not going to try to refute the entire Goon Forum Tactical Syntax Team.  I've already stated that CCP has had serious problems with employee professionalism, and is playing into the Goons hands as a result.

But, be honest here: Do the goons even *care* if any of this is true?  Or is it just a useful hammer to grief the developers with?  What would be sufficient evidence to convince you CCP was honest?

--Dave

EDIT: And the key phrase was "thin and ambiguous".  Continually leaping on the one part of my posts you can actually argue against, or just declaring it "slanted" and dismissing it, may be tried and true Fox News inspired ways to control the debate by making it look like there actually is one, but come *on*.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 04:50:09 PM
"thin and ambiguous" I don't have a problem with, it's obvious that's your opinion already.

If you expand it to "outright fabricated" and I object to that, it's primarily because that comment is complete bollocks.  So please don't blame me for jumping on the bollocks part of your post that you don't wish to defend, you said it not me.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Big Gulp on May 30, 2007, 04:54:58 PM
Spreading the "CCP is corrupt" message all over the internet on such thin and ambiguous, if not ouright fabricated, evidence, goes far beyond that.

The problem is that the "CCP is corrupt" meme is still very much true.  Didn't we just discuss the whole "rigging the game, not being fired" thing?  Their hand has already been caught in the cookie jar.  They are corrupt.  I don't see how spreading that message is doing anyone a disservice, unless you're so caught up in your point and click space adventure/spreadsheet program that you don't want anyone upsetting the apple cart.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on May 30, 2007, 04:58:31 PM
Consider BoB has been doing this for quite some time it's pretty amusing that they came out just now saying it's an exploit.

So did Coalition forces.
Really, who is trying to spin things here?
Tbh, you guys are more biased than goonswarm threadnaught.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 05:00:07 PM
The T20 incident was nearly 2 years ago, although the BPO's were not public knowledge until a few months ago.  CCP admitted to it, and created the IA department to police things.  The actual evidence that CCP is systematically corrupt and the IA division is just a white-wash is beyond thin, the very suggestion would be ludicrous if the Goons weren't repeating it and agreeing with each other about it on every possible forum.  Posting it a million times doesn't make it more substantial.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Big Gulp on May 30, 2007, 05:04:25 PM
The actual evidence that CCP is systematically corrupt and the IA division is just a white-wash is beyond thin,

Umm, the actual evidence is that the devs involved aren't collecting unemployment right now.  The actual evidence is that BoB apparently still has a batphone directly to the developers from which they can get results in minutes, whereas most petitions don't get resolved in weeks.

I don't need much more evidence than that.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 05:07:25 PM
In fact, several Devs and GM's have been fired for such activities.  T20 is apparently one of the founders, and as a stockholder somewhat difficult to fire.  Back to the question: What would be sufficient evidence to convince you?  Keep in mind that "has lots of people convinced they are cheaters in an internet spaceships game" is probably not grounds for summary wholesale terminations under Icelandic law.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on May 30, 2007, 05:09:57 PM
Actual timeline of this particular saga:

Evil Thug starts POS bowling against BoB, a few months ago.
CCP: This is an exploit, please cease immediately.
ET: Ok, I'll stop.

A couple of weeks pass.

BoB's multiple titan pilots start POS bowling against RA/GS/etc., and stealing ships.
RA/GS/etc: /petition WTF?
CCP: This is not an exploit, and we will not punish anybody for it.
Evil Thug: All righty then *starts stealing multiple BoB ships via POS bowling*

A week or two passes.

CCP (today): POS bowling is an exploit. Please stop.

That timeline is pure bullshit.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Furiously on May 30, 2007, 05:10:12 PM
But, be honest here: Do the goons even *care* if any of this is true?  Or is it just a useful hammer to grief the developers with?  What would be sufficient evidence to convince you CCP was honest?

They are doing a really bad job managing this. First they bunker down then pop up with "Here's some evidence and ignore the man behind the curtain."

Here's the issue with their ignoring the IM/speed-dial thing. Everyone knows it's true. The problem is they STILL need to put in a policy that says, "If a customer IM's you for help, don't help. Refer them to the proper channel. Also berate them for trying to use you like that and question their friendship." This isn't rocket science.

Whoever it was that sent the message to their guild that said, "No let me IM so and so." needs to get a slap, the so and so needs to get a new job for not being able to seperate work and play.

So - I'm CCP, what do I do?? I have a meeting with my IA people. I go totally transparent.

I grab my video camera. Start taping. I then call a staff meeting. I announce unfortunately it seems like some people are having problems seperating their work identity from their game identity. This has to stop. Effective immediately, we are all taking on a 3 month special project. The Jovians are invading or some other RP, and they are all going to be NPCs while we determine if we are influcing the game too much in our alliances. It will be unacceptable to log in with ANY of their normal characters after the next 15 minutes. Log in and say bye. I then post video on internet.

IA then monitors employee accounts and I have a talk with the dunce that trys to log in anyways so they can give someone something "They had to have!!!!" After two months I should know how bad of a problem I have and if I need to put other checks and balances into the game for employee involvement.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Big Gulp on May 30, 2007, 05:11:40 PM
Back to the question: What would be sufficient evidence to convince you?  Keep in mind that "has lots of people convinced they are cheaters in an internet spaceships game" is probably not grounds for summary wholesale terminations under Icelandic law.

It's unacceptable that they're still in the positions they held, then.  If socialist employment laws won't let you can somebody you make them "food and beverage director".

Jesus, is it really that difficult?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ratadm on May 30, 2007, 05:26:36 PM
Interestingly there is a really good discussion with some of the head bob guys going on over at http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/ as to pos bowling it worked both ways thug stole 3 carriers and 20 bs .  I also think it was more of a case of no set policy so gm's just made stuff up as they went and different gms came to different conclusions.

Edit: changed numbers on thug's bowling to his own.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: ajax34i on May 30, 2007, 05:27:12 PM
Back to the question: What would be sufficient evidence to convince you? 

--Dave

I don't think there's anything they could do to convince me, not because I'm difficult to convince, but because what they need to do is impossible.  They can't open their company's internal policies and setup up to the public, and that suggestion with the videotaped staff meeting is nice, but they will be speaking their native language, which most of us don't understand anyway.

They don't just have to prove that these allegations are false, they have to also prove that they're straight up, honest, and not involved in the game, and that they will stay that way from now on.  No dev house has opened up to the public like this, and I don't think any will in the future (because the public can be jerks, too).  It's not even worth it, why bother, for a game that's past its prime and will be abandoned when they release their next title, which they've announced already?  Who cares about EVE anymore.

If I were them I'd forget about this game and try to put a positive spin and start with a new image on the next one, when they start publicizing it more.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 05:33:36 PM
http://goonfleet.com/reply_to_CCP.html

Quote
This is a response to CCP's DevBlog located at http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=472 in which we will address CCP's responses, what they didn't say and also respond to the allegations that they make.

Dear CCP,

It's nice to see such a public and indepth response to the allegations that were brought forward rather than the usual quiet response of "nothing to see here, move along". If your response to the previous set of allegations had been this public and this indepth then perhaps the perception of your company would have changed from what it is now, and that's really the issue here, the perception of impropriety.

It doesn't matter if your hands are clean now or not, the fact remains that hands were caught in the cookie jar and the response to those allegations was lackluster at best, resulting in the perception that your company is supporting certain entities over others. You have done much to address this perception with your response to the recent set of allegations but this is tempered by your backhanded comments towards GoonFleet and you still have a long way to go.

Let us now address your response to the first issue, a CCP developer joining a GoonSwarm corporation. You claim the dev was responding to a petition that was filed by a DS1 member over a POS bug and we accept this. In fact we suggested that this could be the very reason however the CEO of the corporation does not recall filing this petition, nor could anybody else in his corporation recall filing the petition so a second petition was filed asking for the reason the CCP developer joined the corporation.

This petition was closed without comment and this what set off alarm bells and is something that you did not address in your response. Had a GM responsed with "A petition was opened due to issue X and the developer took these actions to correct the issue" then this would have been a non-issue. Had Sharkbait himself sent a corporate email saying "I joined to fix issue X that was petitioned" this would have been a non-issue. What happened was a developer joined the corporation for no reason that that the CEO knew of and when the CEO attempted to get answers he was met with a wall of silence. So the question remains, why was the petition asking for the reason Sharkbait joined the corporation closed without comment? Why did Sharkbait himself not send an EVEMail as others have indicated they received in the past when this happened? Either of these actions would have quelled any resulting outcry over these actions.

We are pleased that CCP acknowledges that developers joining and leaving corporations can be misconstrued and addressed this in the dev blog by stating "Joining and leaving corporations has long been a tool GMs and developers alike utilize when investigating petitions or bug reports. As this has [sic]deemed unacceptable to some of our players, we will notify the petitioning corporation via EVEmail if this is necessary.". We would like to add this such an email should always be necessary when a CCP employee or volunteer joins a corporation or takes any actions that may result in the perception that something nefarious is taking place. We would even suggest that CCP consider creating a 'Corporate Petition' system where petitions that are filed by individuals on behalf of a corporation (such as for POS bugs or corporate BPO issues, etc) are viewable by all directors of the corporation to avoid similiar issues in the future.

As to the allegations of rigging, you say none occurs while we have seen differently in game, or was the ability for an alliance to suddenly have freighters worth of materials onsite to complete a scavenger event to claim a mothership merely coincidence? While this may not be your intention your reliance on outside volunteers compromises your integrity in this. You cannot monitor their communications. You cannot determine that they aren't feeding information to their friends or other entities based on their personal bias. You are relying on unpaid volunteers without any checks that we are aware of in place to stop the flow of information outward. Your response, as always is "there is no evidence to support these claims" despite unlikely response times or people just happening to be in the right place at the right time. In this it is your word against others and unfortunately your word holds little value at this point.

On the ISD firing we consider the entire thing to be highly suspect. You claim there were multiple complaints against him but the timing of the entire thing stinks. He claims he was using standard commands to observe the battle, BoB members claim he was bumping them repeatedly. A BoB member claims to have an MSN contact for a developer, minutes later a developer is on the ISD IRC screaming at the reporter. 3 hours later the reporter is banned. You never did address the IRC incident or the timing. You managed to just deflect the allegations under a shield of "we had complaints and this was coming". Never mind the timing, or the perception surrounding the allegations or the perception of a cover-up. Your response does little to remove the doubts that exist. Those who believe that the ISD firing was justified will continue to believe so. Those that believe that there is something more sinister here will continue to believe that. Little has been done here to convince either side.

Now we come to the allegations that this was a deliberately co-ordinated attempt to smear CCP. This is unequivocably false. Originally we were going to post about these issues on the EVE forum to bring them to light and then wait for CCP's response. CCP's response to this was to delete the letter. Due to the way issues in the past were handled we do not currently have any faith in the IA department to properly investigate and address issues without the greater pressure of the EVE user base calling for these investigations. We attempted to bring about this pressure through the exposure of the issues and CCP's response was to simply delete the thread. Had a moderator simply locked the thread with a response saying "We are investigating these issues and will respond accordingly" then that would have been the end of it because at least the issues would be in the public eye and could not be buried.

Once it became clear that CCP was going to attempt to bury the issue through deleting the thread our members responded via the only avenue open to them, they made posts. They posted links to the open letter highlighting the accusations. They told people about it in game and our members also brought it to the attention of outside media through the use of Slashdot and Digg. By throwing such a bright spotlight on the issue we did something that an email to the IA department would not do. We forced CCP to respond in a swift and public manner and for this we make no apologies.

There was no premeditated plan to bring CCP down, despite comments in the dev blog to the contrary, or CCP's insinuations that they are reading our private forums. To state that simply because some people who don't normally post on their boards did that there was some form of co-ordinated "attack" is just silly. It was not the weight of the posts that brought the forums offline as was evident by the fact that both the forums and the rest of the systems remained responsive. CCP chose to offline the forums when it became apparent they would not be able to moderate the accusations away. As most of the posts were simple links back to the open letter we would have in fact be attempting to DoS ourselves with traffic, which was obviously not the case.

We, GoonFleet, love the game that CCP has created. EVE Online is something unique in the world of MMO's. It is a player driven game that has real consequences to combat. It is an economic simulator of unparalleled complexity. It allows players to participate according to his/her play style from being in combat to fueling POSes to building items for the war effort. It is this kind of open ended game play and lack of boundaries that draw us to this game. It is for these reasons that we truly do want to see EVE succeed and grow for many years to come.

What is disliked about the game is the perceived bias in the game. Even if no bias is present the actions of your developers and of various community members creates the perception of bias and it is this perception that you need to correct. BoB members admit to having CCP members on the MSN contact lists. CCP developers socialize with BoB members in other areas. The lackluster response to the T2 BPO scandal. Petition responses changing based on the GM that responds and the situation. All of these contribute to a perception that the game is biased and perception is everything. CCP needs to address these perception issues, especially since employee fraternization with other alliances is apparently forbidden.

I will now tell you the story of a GM, GM Eldini. Several members of GoonFleet attended the FanFest in 2006 and while there they befriended a GM by the name of 'Eldini'. This GM possessed the same sarcastic humor and wit that appeals to Goons and was invited to join our forums and partake in discussions that take place on our forums of which only a small percentage actually deals with EVE directly. After the to be expected period of "hey, a GM, cool" question and answer round, he settled in and was readily accepted as just another 'goon'. From the beginning it was made clear by the directorate that GM Eldini was just there to socialize and that any goon attempting to get any special treatment from the association, even in jest, would be banned. We wanted to protect both ourselves and GM Eldini from any possible accusations of bias. This relationship lasted for about a week before GM Eldini indicated that he was forced to remove himself from the Goon community and, while it was never stated, it was implied that his employment was threatened over the relationship. Apparently BoB can socialize with CCP employees but heaven forbid that another corporation or alliance create a friendship with a CCP employee.

Either CCP employees need to remove all BoB contacts and place them on ignore or CCP should publish the MSN contacts for all members to be able to have a direct line to the developers. No Developer, Employee or ISD member should be able to respond to any petition or take any action for or against any corporation their characters are members of. GM's need to all get on the same page on their responses and policies. It seems that when there is an unexpected result of a game mechanic that benefits GoonFleet, we are told it's an exploit. If an opposing corporation does it and we petition it we are told that it is allowed. We have begun compiling examples of these conflicting responses so that a record can be established. All of these actions are what contribute to the perception and feeling of bias from within CCP.

EVE is a remarkable accomplishment by CCP. The game they have created is truly a wonder and they should be proud of it. But there are issues that while not directly releated to game play are related to the game and CCP needs to take greater steps to clean up its perceived bias, to straighten out GM responses and to improve its customer service. We are not asking for a day by day log of everything that goes on in CCP, but we are asking that CCP take further steps to increase its transparency when these issues are brought up such as not deleting public accusations but instead keeping them public and addressing them. Until the perception of bias goes away and steps are taken to make sure it doesn't come back we will continue to make sure that issues are brought into the light, that issues cannot be buried and that all of the member base of EVE is made aware that these issues exist.

- GoonFleet

Not sure it's the final version but it's already on eveo and foh.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 05:55:35 PM
The problem is that there's a great deal of "bad faith" in the goons side of this.  At the leadership, old-school, Something Awful level of the goons, the goals are about comedy, about making anyone who takes a game too seriously look ridiculous, then taking pictures so you can point and laugh in public.  Culture-jamming in the MMO-sphere.

Along the way, though, they've attracted a lot of people for whom the means is the desired end.  Where griefing is the whole point, and the goons are just a convenient shelter to grant community and legitimacy.  And for that contingent, these issues of professionalism and favoritism aren't about whether they're bad for the game, they're about "griefing at the developer level".  They don't want to improve the game, they want to destroy it.  And the old school tolerates them because after all, no better way to show how meaningless and pointless all the drama in the game is, then by burning it all to the ground.

Do I take the "internet spaceships" too seriously?  I don't think so, although i enjoy the game a lot and I've never had a game give me the same sense of fulfillment I got last Sunday morning when I anchored and started the build on my corp's new outpost, thereby forever changing the basic geography of the game, I *do* realize it's just a game and that accomplishment means nothing outside of that context.  Taken on it's own terms, inside the context of the game, the relationships and events are real, but they aren't of the same degree as those I have with my family, my professional colleagues, or in most cases with my RL social circle in general.

I've been playing online games for 15 years, and working on them for 8, and I've gotten pretty good at seperating the two.  In this case, as a *gamer* I find the typical goon behaviour in game (griefing, scamming, trolling) to be something I don't like and avoided contact with, but up until this incident I didn't really have much of an opinion about it as a developer.

In Eve, the Goons have been steadily escalating and one-upping each other.  From small-scale griefing, scamming, and trolling, up to Corp Theft and IPO scams, to using social engineering to start the biggest war Eve had ever seen.  All of this was entertaining in it's own way, and I've been very earnestly studying it for the lessons it has to teach.  But now they've escalated to the point where I can no longer judge them strictly as a gamer, but have to view them as a designer and as a businessman.  And the implications are scary.

As scandals go, CCP's transgressions aren't much.  Compared to what used to happen in UO, they're nothing, and I could tell you some stories about what I saw in EQ....  In the ordinary course of events, I would be chiding CCP for their lack of professionalism, and probably in strong enough terms to pretty much guarantee I'd never get to work for them.  But the Goons are going way beyond that, with an organized campaign of disinformation and psychological warfare that is *certain* to have serious impacts on CCP as a business, and on Eve as a game, that are far out of proportion to what has actually happened.  It's hard to believe the goons when they say "it's just internet spaceships, lighten up", when they're calling for wholesale firings and running smear campaigns that will cost CCP millions of very real dollars.  It seems...disingenuous, for them to claim the insubstantialness of it as granting them the moral high ground, while they work so hard to translate the virtual into the real.  And it seems to show that there really *isn't* any line there, to begin with.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ravandor on May 30, 2007, 06:58:28 PM
I have no part in the war itself, and have only been playing since the beginning of the year.  About the only way the war comes close to affecting me is the rise in mineral prices after a big battle.  Personally, I enjoyed EVE because I was able to find a nice, empty chunk of space and do some mining.  (Yeah, I know, but I always found it to be a good way to unwind at the end of the day.)

Watching these “scandals” unfold has been mildly interesting, but really has nothing at all to do with me.  The thing is, with everything I’ve seen it seems like the goons are the lesser of two evils at this point.  They’re obviously having fun finding everything they can that’s even mildly suspicious, throwing it at the wall, and seeing what sticks.  The catch here is that CCP apparently has no idea how to behave like the grown-up in the relationship and do the mature thing.  All they’ve done is try to ignore the problem and hope it goes away.  When that doesn’t work, they pull the “it’s being taken care of, and no we won’t tell you what we’re doing.”  The latest dev-blog is the newest tack, apparently trying to get the goons to go sit in the corner and take a time out with the only reasoning of “because I said so” to support it.  Not to mention the fact that they refuse to discuss the BOB-CCP MSN hotline, which is the most damning part of the whole thing.

Then you’ve got the BOB forum contingent, which is helping their side even less.  They seem to only have two possible responses:
1)   We’re better than you, get over it. 
2)   Goons are liars, cheaters, griefers, and scammers.  Thus, I am obviously in the right, and the rest of you are wrong.

And before you ask, when I logged in to read the dev-blog a couple days ago I just stayed logged in and canceled my account.  I'd like to think that when a company shows such disdain for a large percentage of their playerbase, they’ll feel some sort of repercussion


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 30, 2007, 07:03:35 PM
What would be sufficient evidence to convince you?

-CCP to say to the players & their employees:
Quote
"We are now monitoring all forms of communication including instant messenger at the workplace.  You can continue to talk to your friends, but you must never ever discuss the game in any fashion that will bring accusations of impropriety.

Furthermore, Internal Affairs will be acting like security/investigation agents with the integrity of the game firstmost in mind.
We know sometimes things are not handled the perfect way, but we hope improve upon our procedures & to put an end the negative perceptions the community might have of us"

Done.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 30, 2007, 07:13:15 PM
By far the best bit of playing eve was access to the goonfleet forums.  Going to repost something you might have seen before but it made me laugh, it's from the war with LV.

Quote
hey guys dont ever spam local again or something

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GM Sunshine > Good evening
Remedial > Hi there, what's up
GM Sunshine > We have been recieving several petitions regarding your members spamming local during combat
GM Sunshine > and we would like you to stop this this instant
Remedial > Totally false. We only fofofo one line each, and only after we win a battle
GM Sunshine > regardless
Remedial > If you check the chatlogs compared to LV killmails, you'll see that I am telling the truth
GM Sunshine > stop this
Remedial > I also don't control every single goon in GoonSwarm. I typed fofofo and then everybody else did
GM Sunshine > you are there figure head and leader, if you are unable to get them to do stop this, then who is?
Remedial > Well, you could always go to the offenders and talk to them personally rather than holding me accountable every time a goonswarm member gets petitioned
Remedial > I mean, I just love having a GM tell me to stop 2500 different players from performing an action
Remedial > But it's pretty much beyond my control. I don't even have a mic on TS right now
Remedial > Really you should probably just delete local entirely, as that's clearly why LV is losing the war in Detorid
GM Sunshine > local chat and LV's ability is not up for discussion here, your members behaviour is
GM Sunshine > let's stick to that
Remedial > Ok: you are a GM, I'm some fat guy on the internet in charge of a SPACE GUILD. I think you should go to people who break rules and bust their balls, not mine. I don't get to enforce rules because you know, fat guy on the internet.
Remedial > So when somebody renames a station to DEAD FAGGOTS or somebody screams "SMOSKE SUCKS" in #BobChat or somebody spams local with Fofofo, I really shouldn't be the person you convo.
GM Sunshine > you may not run the internet, but for all intents and purposes, you run Goonswarm
Remedial > Ok, I'll post a thread telling people not to spam fofofo on Eve-O.
GM Sunshine > how you get your members to stop this is not my concern, just do it
Remedial > Ok, so if "my guys" keep doing it, does that mean you're going to ban my account for non-compliance with an impossible order?
Remedial > Or will you just start gagging offenders in local so they can't spam
Remedial > PS voting option #2
GM Sunshine > I will not warn you for this in any way or form
GM Sunshine > regardless if you do comply this time or not
Remedial > Living up to your name every day, sweetcheeks!
GM Sunshine > but your actions will affect future decisions
Remedial > I'd like to elevate this complaint please
Remedial > Can I talk to your manager?
Remedial > Is he wearing a nametag?
Remedial > Or like a special hat or something
GM Sunshine > you can file a petition
Remedial > Should I file it under stuck?
GM Sunshine > you can do that
Remedial > I love you GM Sunshine, you're my favorite GM in this chatroom
GM Sunshine > considering I'm the only GM in here, I'll take that with a pinch of salt
Remedial > /emote takes off his shirt.
Remedial > 16/m/FL
Remedial > u??
GM Sunshine > Immortal, male, Game masters
Remedial > /emote puts on his robe and wizard hatt.
Remedial > /emote massages ur master.
Remedial > OH GOD BEES BEES GET THEM OFF

Quote
Remedial > Goons please don't fofofo anymore as you're causing LV to lose the war
GM Sunshine > but...
Nweilin Ng > oh noes, GM
Nova Cygni > fofofofofo
Magere > fofofofofo
Kerevar > fofofofofofofo
Stradiot > fofofo
Althera > fofofo
Eyud > fofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofofof
Hotokhe > fofofo
Vera Nosfyu > fofofo
Contez > fofofofo
Zinrix > fofofo
Arthur Miller > fofofofoof
Ilarra > fofofofofofo
Arthenis > fofofofo
Woobins > fofofofofofo
SPACE BEEZ > foofoofo
Psyyke > fofofofoof
Ilucid > fofofo
Captain Tabouli > fofofo
Innominate > fofofo
Margaret Houlihan > fofofo
FreeOJ > fofofofofofo
Bane Glorious > NOOOOO
SPACE BEEZ > foofofo
SamHandwich > fofofofofoof
Enormus > fofofof
Von Kleist > fofofofofofo
Saldio Banderas > fofofo
RedhawkMillionaire > fofofofofofo
Monopthalmus > fofofo
Vintage Uno > fofofof
Johanen > fofofofofofofofo
Svaha Norbu > fofofofo
HydroSan > fofofo
Pyrosquee > fofofof
inferno sun > fofofofo
The StrayDawg > fofofofof
General Brusilov > fofofo
Habe Quiddam > fofofo
Scavok > fofofofoffo
ShadowImage > fofofo
Sherkaner Lumpen > fofofofo
Zarimax Mishka > fofofofofofo
Sporadicus Hue > fofofo
Darkxray > fofofofofof
Ska La > fofofof
Ianaa > fofoofofo
Tandrea Lei > fofofofofo
Eronarn Palazzo > fofofofofofofofofofo
Brick Bossload > let the record stand that mcgaver is would kick the crap outta james bond any day
Remedial > NO DONT WHAT HAVE YOU DONe
Agmar > you're a pretty professional leader Remedial
Crivens > goons and their' lagspoilts
Remedial > STOP STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP
Variso Ageo > Remedial: it's when your team loses carriers and keeps coming that I'm worried about the war.
K'Bar > ok guys lets chill man its only a game
Swirler > omg! I am lagging so bad now!!! stop that!!
GM Sunshine > I will only ask this once Goons
Gramtar > haha another LV pos just went BOOM!
Brick Bossload > cya pos
GM Sunshine > stop spamming local like you did just now


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Faust on May 30, 2007, 07:18:03 PM
"Remedial > Ok: you are a GM, I'm some fat guy on the internet in charge of a SPACE GUILD. I think you should go to people who break rules and bust their balls, not mine. I don't get to enforce rules because you know, fat guy on the internet."


I'd like to print that out and frame it, plz.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 30, 2007, 07:19:18 PM
As with all things of this nature, I figure the answers are pretty simple and somewhere in the middle.

RP Events Rigged - Of course they are. Duh. It's the nature of the beast. Every time there's a RP event, there is a "preferred conclusion," even if it exists only in the head of the writer. Live RP events are one of those great on paper, godawful in execution concepts. It's a Catch-22 - if you want to move a story along with in-game mechanics and any addition of in-game objects, it either has to be a closed story and not open to participation or rigged. You can't develop with an if/and/or tree and still maintain any appreciable degree of story pacing.

As far as the individual ISD guy goes, his transcripts make him look like an ass. When you're a volunteer, being an ass is more than enough grounds to get you terminated. Apparently the IRC transcript was not the only time he had been an ass.

BoB Favoritism - Yep. Many of BoB are EVE's core players, back when they were sending out press releases at every 1,000 concurrent user increment. They've also been on the bleeding-edge of development, sending out the front line of bug reports and able to immediately implement and advise on the leading edge of high content. When you do that, you make contacts. There's a natural desire to understand more about the problems from people who are executing them from the developers, thus they look them up on MSN and chat for a bit and get the scoop.

Goonfleet does none of this, both from no intent to be helpful and that they're relative latecomers to the party. So yes, the developers like BoB better than Goonfleet, and their reactions to actions from both parties will be concurrent to that. I find the story about the Goonfleet GM pretty believable.

What I suspect is a cultural expectations difference. CCP responds to these things in a manner totally unlike a NA company of its revenue size would do. But, the responses look markedly similar to some of the responses I've seen from smaller MUD developers with communities in the ~1,000 - 2,500 range.

Now, I know absolutely nothing about Icelandic culture, but knowing some general things about culture and going off of a few Web searches, I'm going to make a few hypotheses and get yelled at for stereotyping. So here goes.

Keep in mind what Iceland is. It's an expanding rock with a lot of fish around it and one big city.  Ninety-six percent of its inhabitants belong to a single religious denomination. (Evangelical Lutheran, fyi!) When you live in this kind of hardtack land, you get an ingrained sense of cultural interdependence. There's so little habitable land in Iceland that if you have a disagreement, or break some rules, or whatever, you can't just up and move away. You can't be a singular unit - you have to interact with others, make deals with them, smooth things over, just make things work. You don't burn any bridges because odds are you're going to have to cross that bridge again.

In NA, we can write off people no problem. You're in Cali and going to lose your house because you got fired? Move to Nevada and restart your life as a fry cook. In Iceland it's not so easy. The community is so intermingled and isolated that firing/blackballing/shaming someone not only creates much more relative trauma in their life, but creates more backlash on you. So the natural response when these kind of bad things surface is to look at the elements of good and worth - instead of the singular black marks that get you termed in the U.S. - and fix the environment, not the person. CCP, as a company, seems to follow my hypothesis pretty well.

Members of BoB, as stated earlier, have been very helpful to CCP in some endeavours and no doubt CCP appreciates this and communicates with those people in what we in NA consider wholly inappropriate because they're in the same boat - pulling the same rope - etc. In a sense, they're much more part of the team than the pole's length that NA companies expect between customer and vendor. As far as what NA customers expect, it's wholly incestuous. This isn't bad or wrong, but it IS different. When Goonfleet comes in, offering nothing of value and tearing down people that have been part of the team socially, verbally, in-game, etc., CCP's individuals tolerate them only as much as they have to. CCP's response clearly shows they could absolutely care less if every GF desubbed right now. Assuming my hypotheses are correct, not knowing this leads to some pretty ugly stuff, as we've seen.

EVE is a microcosm of Iceland itself, even. It was designed to force interdependence, in fact, it's by far the most interdependent game world in existence right now. To CCP, the notion of Pax BoB probably isn't as abhorrent as it is to NA customers, and thus they feel comfortable sending the only other major force in EVE up the river.

And again, please note that I don't think of this as bad or wrong; it's just a different way of doing things than what NA customers expect. But since CCP relies on NA customers, they're either going to have to trim their playerbase down to people who are OK with this way of thinking or become, well, Blizzard. No pun intended.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Miasma on May 30, 2007, 08:07:43 PM
fofofofo

GM Sunshine > stop spamming local like you did just now
Didn't that GM wind up being one of your enemies too?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 30, 2007, 08:11:08 PM
I have never seen evidence of BoB bug-removal.  Rather, they are widely known for going to every length to use these bugs to their advantage for as long as possible.  Remember the "you shot through the PoS shields!" fiasco that dragged on for months and months?  Proof was finally established that such a thing had occurred and, lo and behold, it suddenly became a "known feature" with a very lame "oh and this is how it has always worked!" explanation.  Such an explanation was only forthcoming once CCP was shown evidence that the incident even happened.  Nevermind that it had been brought up countless times in petition and on their official forums.

It's just an anecdotal example, but more exist.  I do not buy that they are some super-helpful, bug-squashing brainiacs.  I don't discount that members have been helpful at times either, though.  The same is true of GoonFleet and the titan manifesto - and many other corporations/alliances.

Most intelligent, longterm players have the means and ability to provide CCP with aid in bug-removal.  It seems to have fallen to one group.  Where is the outcry at RA/CCP intermingling... or IAC/CCP intermingling?  It does not exist because... it does not exist.

I will account for cultural differences, but their actions in the past have still been corrupt.  T20 was caught and reprimanded long before the scandal was public but the blueprints he gifted BoB were only recovered after public outcry (much much later).  Doubtful Icelandic isolated culture accounts for that sort of decision making.

(Hi f13 people!)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: LC on May 30, 2007, 08:36:48 PM
Consider BoB has been doing this for quite some time it's pretty amusing that they came out just now saying it's an exploit.
Actual timeline of this particular saga:

Evil Thug starts POS bowling against BoB, a few months ago.
CCP: This is an exploit, please cease immediately.
ET: Ok, I'll stop.

A couple of weeks pass.

BoB's multiple titan pilots start POS bowling against RA/GS/etc., and stealing ships.
RA/GS/etc: /petition WTF?
CCP: This is not an exploit, and we will not punish anybody for it.
Evil Thug: All righty then *starts stealing multiple BoB ships via POS bowling*

A week or two passes.

CCP (today): POS bowling is an exploit. Please stop.

That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody in BoB wanted pos bowling to be fixed. I haven't even heard of ET bowling any ships since the first round when he knocked out that afk carrier. The real reason they decided to fix it is because the Chowdown group has been bowling every POS in the north for a week. I'm sure they were bombarded with petitions about it. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 30, 2007, 08:48:55 PM
OK, now compare Arthur's chat log with the average deathly earnest and/or indignant post from one of the local ever-so-important BoB supporters.

Who would you rather see win the war?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 09:08:48 PM
OK, now compare Arthur's chat log with the average deathly earnest and/or indignant post from one of the local ever-so-important BoB supporters.

Who would you rather see win the war?
And there, you have captured the essence of it.  How you answer that question is a sort of Rorschach test for your attitude towards the "virtual society" viewpoint of MMO's, and for online communities in general.  If you're on one side of that divide, nothing the other side says makes any sense at all.

Here's the kicker, though: If you're not a subsistence farmer or primitive hunter-gatherer, it's *all* virtual.  All of this drama is just the diffident way we treat "virtual stuff we haven't agreed to treat real yet."

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Big Gulp on May 30, 2007, 09:17:12 PM
And there, you have captured the essence of it.  How you answer that question is a sort of Rorschach test for your attitude towards the "virtual society" viewpoint of MMO's, and for online communities in general.  If you're on one side of that divide, nothing the other side says makes any sense at all.

That very response makes me understand why Goonfleet likes griefing people like you.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ratadm on May 30, 2007, 09:21:13 PM
That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody in BoB wanted pos bowling to be fixed. I haven't even heard of ET bowling any ships since the first round when he knocked out that afk carrier. The real reason they decided to fix it is because the Chowdown group has been bowling every POS in the north for a week. I'm sure they were bombarded with petitions about it. 
Dianabolic and Blacklight would appear to disagree (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=5708)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 09:40:12 PM
That very response makes me understand why Goonfleet likes griefing people like you.
Oh, I understand it too, although my interpretation is probably less charitable than yours.  But, think about it for a minute.  Got any money on you?  Take a look at it.  The *only* thing that makes those bits of rag-paper and shiny metal of value is our agreement as a society to treat them as if they were.

If it's not food, fighting, or fucking, it's all virtual, all a product of social consensus so strong as to acquire the power of fact.  Politics, religion, money, property rights, even the idea of "family" is pretty damned hard to pin to something solid past the first degree or so of blood relationship.

Most of the 0.0 population of Eve exists inside of a "magic circle" of mutual agreement like that.  And goons are despised because they puncture the circle at every opportunity.  Really, they're playing a different game, just as virtual.  But they keep score in their game by how many people outside of their own magic circle that they piss off.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Merusk on May 30, 2007, 10:36:27 PM
'We don't like the way you metagame, so it's ok for us to cheat."

Really, Dave, you've gotten so close you haven't dunk the kool aid, you're pissing it.  This game is obviously too damn important to you, or you simply wouldn't be this worked-up about any of it.  Nobody's changing their mind here, and the majority opinion seems against you yet you return time and again to try and prove your 'side' isn't a bunch of cheating asshats, it's the OTHER guys doing the same thing that are the cheating asshats.

It's fucking gold.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 10:50:05 PM
I never said Goons were cheaters (asshats, maybe).  RA, yes, but they don't deny it either.  And I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, just providing my own commentary on the whole drama.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 30, 2007, 11:03:24 PM
That very response makes me understand why Goonfleet likes griefing people like you.
Oh, I understand it too, although my interpretation is probably less charitable than yours.  But, think about it for a minute.  Got any money on you?  Take a look at it.  The *only* thing that makes those bits of rag-paper and shiny metal of value is our agreement as a society to treat them as if they were.

If it's not food, fighting, or fucking, it's all virtual, all a product of social consensus so strong as to acquire the power of fact.  Politics, religion, money, property rights, even the idea of "family" is pretty damned hard to pin to something solid past the first degree or so of blood relationship.

Most of the 0.0 population of Eve exists inside of a "magic circle" of mutual agreement like that.  And goons are despised because they puncture the circle at every opportunity.  Really, they're playing a different game, just as virtual.  But they keep score in their game by how many people outside of their own magic circle that they piss off.

--Dave

Ok you're very wrong here.  I have not logged in for months, and only read ScrapHeap, the goonfleet private forums, and Eve-O, but I know that BoB are despised.  They are not inside some magic circle of understanding.  Players do not sit around holding hands, passing the peace-pipe and saying "Yes, brother, we welcome your attack and the eventual taking of our space with open arms.  Come join us and we will dance as you use stolen passwords to off-line our PoS.  We will sit and smile while you shoot our Titan with a ship 1/1000th it's value 1/2 second before it logs off so the pilot may unknowingly go to bed while you kill it unpiloted.  What's that?  Free BPO's from the developer?  Never mind it friend, for you bathe with us in the sanctified waters of virtual realism."

Goonfleet is not crashing some party of goodwill full of players quietly nodding in acceptance that BoB is kicking their shit in using any under-handed, shifty, sneaky method.  They are just the new entity using those tactics, and the OLD entity is pissed that they have to have a meta-game competition.

That you reverted back to trying to explain the essence of reality in a discussion centered around game corruption and cheating is telling.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: NiX on May 30, 2007, 11:10:19 PM
Can anyone without bias explain to me how there's still appeal to this bullshit? Honestly, the fuck is wrong with some of you people? I'm used to some of the stupid shit that flies about this place, but if you really take EvE this seriously...

Also, at what point did we not consider a MMO company creating an IA department just fucking retarded?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Krakrok on May 30, 2007, 11:28:07 PM
This is why the goons lost. Dev hacks is just another excuse.

Hey, as long as we're nerding it up and posting killmails.

This one was pretty funny. (http://privateer.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=50691)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 30, 2007, 11:29:44 PM
Can anyone without bias explain to me how there's still appeal to this bullshit? Honestly, the fuck is wrong with some of you people? I'm used to some of the stupid shit that flies about this place, but if you really take EvE this seriously...

Also, at what point did we not consider a MMO company creating an IA department just fucking retarded?

I ran my mouth a little bit...

Well EVE itself is kinda segmented.  A lot of players have no idea about any of the cheating-allegation stuff.  They never venture into the areas of the game that are player controlled.  

A lot of others "pay" by using the in-game currency to buy time cards (which have been purchased from CCP or an affiliate).

But yeah, I got your meaning.  I think many are in the mindset that they hope the game will clean itself up - and want to stick around to be on top when it does.

It will be interesting to see, when another economic/PvP based game emerges, whether or not it has the same drama swirling around it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on May 30, 2007, 11:55:59 PM
Ok you're very wrong here.  I have not logged in for months, and only read ScrapHeap, the goonfleet private forums, and Eve-O, but I know that BoB are despised.  They are not inside some magic circle of understanding.  Players do not sit around holding hands, passing the peace-pipe and saying "Yes, brother, we welcome your attack and the eventual taking of our space with open arms.  Come join us and we will dance as you use stolen passwords to off-line our PoS.  We will sit and smile while you shoot our Titan with a ship 1/1000th it's value 1/2 second before it logs off so the pilot may unknowingly go to bed while you kill it unpiloted.  What's that?  Free BPO's from the developer?  Never mind it friend, for you bathe with us in the sanctified waters of virtual realism."

Goonfleet is not crashing some party of goodwill full of players quietly nodding in acceptance that BoB is kicking their shit in using any under-handed, shifty, sneaky method.  They are just the new entity using those tactics, and the OLD entity is pissed that they have to have a meta-game competition.

That you reverted back to trying to explain the essence of reality in a discussion centered around game corruption and cheating is telling.
It's telling that the discussion of cheating wasn't going anywhere, so I was looking deeper.  Yeah, BoB has pushed the boundaries on metagaming, and doesn't really have a lot of moral high ground to claim.  But BoB wasn't the target with the most to lose on this latest round, that was CCP, and I'm trying to explain that there's a boundary that was crossed when that happened, one that is clear to many people but completely transparent to the Goons, and *why* that is so.  The goons are not really engaged in the game of Eve to begin with, so they see no distinction between targetting BoB and going after CCP.

Believe it or not, my primary interest in Eve isn't because I love internet spaceships, I don't like most of the actual gameplay.  Sneaking around in a covert or blockade runner can be fun, but the combat leaves me cold.  The only way of making money that doesn't drive me bugfuck nuts with boredom is playing the markets.  But the politics, diplomacy, and other social interactions are *fascinating*.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Drogo on May 31, 2007, 01:20:34 AM
First to answer another poster it's hard to make a distinction between targeting BoB and CCP when they MSN each other when other alliances are not allowed to. It kind of makes them appear to be connected. You can spin it all you like and hate GS all you like, but the fact still remains that the bond between BoB and CCP stinks to high heaven. The term Band of Developers was not created because there was no link between the two or because the developers have distanced themselves from that alliance. The exact opposite is true, they have been closely connected for a long time and even after the T20 scandal, CCP employees continue to be closely connected to BoB as proven by statements of high ranking BoB officials.

Secondly why has the guy involved in the firing of the ISD man and his IRC chat with him not been publicly discussed, reprimanded and/or fired? CCP was very forthcoming with all the other allegations, but did nothing to address an employee jumping into the IRC chat right after an incident happened with BoB. The fact that a petition was also filed does not address the issue of the swiftness that such an issue was addressed or how quickly a decision was made when most regular petitions take weeks to be dealt with and he was addressed almost immediately and banned within three hours. The issue is even spoken about in the IRC chat, with the head of the ISD department but CCP is completely silent on that issue. Why does BoB have instant access to petitions if no one else does? The petition may have been the final result that got him fired, but it does not explain the employee being in IRC chat right after the incident happened and BoB said they would get on MSN to take care of it.

You can tinfoil hat this situation all you want, but CCP has obviously not cut its ties to BoB which should have been done as soon as the T20 incident came to light. There is no defense for a company that had a developer that got cheating for an alliance to have other developers still in that alliance, helping that alliance or even being on MSN with that alliance. All ties should have been severed, but apparently CCP prefers to side with their alliance of friends rather than provide an even playing field.

CCP is the problem here, not BoB or GS. You cannot blame GS for pointing out possible corruption within CCP after CCP has already proven to have cheated for BoB and then lied about it. If someone in your company cheats and the company covers that up, then the company is as guilty as the person. You cannot say that T20 cheated, but CCP didn't after they lied about it. CCP has messed up before and in trying to get answers about whether they messed up again through threadnoughts, going to outside sources and any other means is not an attempt to destroy the company or game when the company does not respond to petitions and deletes threads. There is no other way to get their attention. If CCP would deal with allegations rather than shoving them under the rug then they would not have these problems.

CCP should have answered the petition or locked the initial thread and said they would look into it, but not delete it. The reason CCP had a rough weekend is because CCP handled the situation badly and continues to handle it badly. The Goons may or may not be the bane of EVE as some suggest, but it does not change the fact that CCP did not and has not come completely clean on their own improper behavior yet again. Painting the Goons as a perpetrator does not cleanse CCP of its wrongdoing.

The problems in CCP that were brought to light this weekend are not limited to the allegations from GS. The dev involved in the IRC chat involving the ISD person should have to publicly explain his actions and involvement as T20 did, the issue of Sharkbait and the screenshots shown about him and his unprofessional behavior should be dealt with, the GM that dealt personally with the petition about his misconduct should be explained and the community manager that belittled some parts of the community and then threatened a lawsuit against paying customers should be looking for a new job. CCP has tons of problems in its current workforce that need to be dealt with and explaining it all as a GS problem that will be washed away when they leave is a very naive view. CCP needs to do some serious house cleaning, set up a serious code of conduct for its employees, and actually have the IA department do its job, not just react to allegations after they become a problem on the forums. It is a testament to CCP's inability to host a fair game that they actually have to have an IA department. What is worse is that the job of the IA department seems to be to find ways of explaining inappropriate behavior rather than disciplining employees that break the rules.

If CCP does not already have it they should provide all employees with a strict job description and a code of conduct on how they can and cannot deal with, interact and refer to paying customers. Secondly, if they have such a code they should fire anyone who breaches this code of conduct. This should be a very simple policy that every other MMO company seems to adhere to. I guess CCP is just afraid that they would be unable to run their game if they fired everyone in their company who did not know how to act appropriately on the job. If their has been a smear campaign this past weekend it has been by CCP. CCP really needs to clean their own glass house before they start throwing stones at others. Blaming GS is like a child blaming the bumps on the skin for giving him chicken pocks. They may be irritating, but they are merely the symptom, not the cause. CCP is the real cause of all its problems.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 31, 2007, 01:27:46 AM
It's telling that the discussion of cheating wasn't going anywhere, so I was looking deeper.  Yeah, BoB has pushed the boundaries on metagaming, and doesn't really have a lot of moral high ground to claim.  But BoB wasn't the target with the most to lose on this latest round, that was CCP, and I'm trying to explain that there's a boundary that was crossed when that happened, one that is clear to many people but completely transparent to the Goons, and *why* that is so.  The goons are not really engaged in the game of Eve to begin with, so they see no distinction between targetting BoB and going after CCP.

Believe it or not, my primary interest in Eve isn't because I love internet spaceships, I don't like most of the actual gameplay.  Sneaking around in a covert or blockade runner can be fun, but the combat leaves me cold.  The only way of making money that doesn't drive me bugfuck nuts with boredom is playing the markets.  But the politics, diplomacy, and other social interactions are *fascinating*.

--Dave
[/quote]

Dave, Goons are tremendously engaged in the game of EvE.  That Titan Manifesto was a labor of love by one of their most engaged players.  They created a portrait pack (considered illegal at the time but impossible to catch) that was such a good idea that CCP adopted it (the idea).  

The whole "Goons in Space" thing they trumpeted was entirely addressing the old guard/new guard struggle that exists.  When I first began playing I got constant crap because I was in goonfleet, was in 0.0, and had only been active for a couple weeks.  I was a "stain" on the game before goons even became the goons many of the playerbase knows today.  The idea was that "the old guard won't accept us, so we'll just accept each other."  

There was an "attack" on CCP because more shady actions came to light and they refused to be anything other than cloak-and-dagger in their resolving of the issues.  They chose to ignore questions and delete threads outright when faced with questions regarding their handling of the game and it backfired.  People (not just goons) saw that it took the community going apeshit for CCP to even bat an eye last time they were (correctly) accused of dev-player collusion.  Hence the shitstorm.

It was likely an over-reaction, but the questions raised deserved answers none-the-less.  The most deserving of those is still hanging out there with no reply.  By the by, the first group to bring up the whole ordeal was someone (SMASH) who read the goonfleet boards via spy and posted what they read there on the EvE-O forums.  It started a chain of deleted posts and Goonfleet went to threadnaught mode.  They've done it before and it has worked.  The whole DIGG/Slashdot/get it blogged/inform game mags thing was also done last time.  If anything, it is just weird that a group (of my friends) that has such a low opinion of a game company would still play their game.  

Most goons share your love of the political landscape.  When I was playing it seemed like ten percent or so of us were lawyers (Remedial, Mittani, others are lawyers and many are in law school) who couldn't wait to button up our suit jackets and play diplomat.

(if something is clear to one group and transparent to the other than they are on the same page!... but I knew whatcha meant)    






Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ubvman on May 31, 2007, 03:36:35 AM
In fact, several Devs and GM's have been fired for such activities.  T20 is apparently one of the founders, and as a stockholder somewhat difficult to fire.  Back to the question: What would be sufficient evidence to convince you?  Keep in mind that "has lots of people convinced they are cheaters in an internet spaceships game" is probably not grounds for summary wholesale terminations under Icelandic law.

--Dave

T20 - That a founder and stockholder found nothing wrong in blatantly cheating in his own game says a lot about the present CCP management position. The rot goes all the way to the top.

While we're on the subject of those quaint Icelandic socialist laws, what does it say about, "The volume and timing of these near-simultaneous references is no coincidence: we were the target of a carefully constructed and well-timed social engineering effort by one of the largest player groups in our community." Uh.... I kinda pity the CCP lawyer foo thats gonna have to write out the legal papers describing "threadnaughts", "goonfleet asshat metagaming", "Slashdots comments below your threshold",  "Wikipedia WP:POV postings", "POS Bowling" etc. I dunno, maybe they hope to scare 10 year old kids?

CCP threatening a lawsuit is as laughable as any forum warrior armchair-attorney lawsuit threats. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 31, 2007, 03:37:41 AM
It's interesting that the best posts in this thread in the last couple of days have been by newbies: Drogo, Sutro and Sanswetware.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Wolf on May 31, 2007, 03:40:59 AM
Can anyone without bias explain to me how there's still appeal to this bullshit? Honestly, the fuck is wrong with some of you people? I'm used to some of the stupid shit that flies about this place, but if you really take EvE this seriously...

Also, at what point did we not consider a MMO company creating an IA department just fucking retarded?

I wrote like 300 words. Than I decided it's not worth it. Honesly - you either like it and stay subbed, or you don't and unsub. Keep in mind that unsubbing will have nothing to do with this or the previous scandal. It will be because you don't like the grind.

Also I was allied to GF back when they were created. I used to like them. I no longer do, and that has nothing to do with CCP's blog. It has to do with the fucking attitude of their members posting on these boards. Why everyone ignored this post (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9285.msg307203#msg307203) is beyond me. I will not read, neither post in this thread any more.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 31, 2007, 04:00:34 AM
Why everyone ignored this post (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9285.msg307203#msg307203) is beyond me.

It wasn't ignored but what can you say to someone who believes normal rules of customer service might not apply if you happen to live in Iceland.  Iceland, oh different, shiny, expanding rock, fish.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 31, 2007, 04:04:08 AM
fofofofo

GM Sunshine > stop spamming local like you did just now
Didn't that GM wind up being one of your enemies too?

Maybe not sure, are you possibly thinking about GM Enslaver?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 31, 2007, 04:06:23 AM
Why everyone ignored this post (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9285.msg307203#msg307203) is beyond me. I will not read, neither post in this thread any more.

Far from ignoring it I actually blogged about it.  I thought it was an excellent attempt to look at the cultural and sociological reasons why behaviour that is unacceptable in other countries might seem justifiable to some in CCP.  I have a few Icelandic friends here in Edinburgh (in Scotland we're as close to Iceland as anyone bar the Faroes), and I'm looking forward to discussing it with them.

I've been to Iceland, by the way.  Spun right, I reckon that should get me into BoB.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 31, 2007, 04:10:49 AM
How dare these new people post on MY MESSAGE BOARD! They are soiling my magic circle.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Chenghiz on May 31, 2007, 04:17:14 AM
The goons are not really engaged in the game of Eve to begin with, so they see no distinction between targetting BoB and going after CCP.

Goons don't hate CCP. They like EVE. They like the game they play; that's why they play it. I think that is a pretty important and indeed major difference, and I'm surprised you didn't see it yourself.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 31, 2007, 04:51:18 AM
Yeah, if we hated EVE we'd just quit (probably after undocking a couple of hundred smartbombing battleships and camping the Jita undock). We like EVE...we just hate dev corruption.

Unfortunately, it looks like you can't get one without the other and neither CCP nor BoB (and their pets) seem to want to change that. :sad_panda:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 31, 2007, 04:55:08 AM
I think we're done.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Nebu on May 31, 2007, 04:56:48 AM
Is it too early to start hoping for a complete server wipe?  I'd actually go back to EvE if everyone had to start fresh. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ubvman on May 31, 2007, 05:11:58 AM
If you're going to wrap this up I think this just about sums up the situation vis-a-vis CCP:

(I got it from Lum's blog comment area (credit Ross Smith - works for me...)

First corollary of Hanson's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor): "sufficiently advanced incompetence (or stupidity) is indistinguishable from malice."


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 31, 2007, 05:40:37 AM
Update from the goon meeting last night, change in direction, back to basics.  Those that are staying are going to try and have some fun, I'm going to stick around for a while and see what happens. 

CCP also contacted goon leadership yesterday wanting to know the names of the person/s involved in writing the two goon open letters to CCP.  No clue if they want to sue them, ban them from the game or something else.

Quote
[23:43:47] Jefe Grande > CCP Morpheus > Hello. Anyone in contact with Mittani / Remedial at this moment?
[23:44:24] KIATolon > jeffe, where is that
[23:44:26] KIATolon > also X UP
[23:44:31] Jefe Grande > KZF
[23:44:43] KIATolon > tell them to convo me
[23:44:49] KIATolon > in fact no
[23:44:51] Jefe Grande > rgr
[23:44:51] KIATolon > tell them to msn me

CCP apparently refused the offer to communicate about it via msn.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Megrim on May 31, 2007, 07:48:25 AM
Is it too early to start hoping for a complete server wipe?  I'd actually go back to EvE if everyone had to start fresh. 

Oh god yes. I actually think they should do that sort of thing on a yearly basis.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 31, 2007, 07:52:07 AM
I could live with an asset wipe but not a full character reset.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Megrim on May 31, 2007, 07:56:11 AM
Yea, yea, that's what i'd meant. Let people keep their skill points but clear everything else.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 31, 2007, 08:04:35 AM
Yeah, a full wipe would be a Bad Thing as it is significantly easier to get to anchorable POSes, skill-and-money wise, than it is to get to dreads (see: the Chinese server where one alliance does control all of 0.0 because they out-spammed their enemies before anyone could stop them).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Miasma on May 31, 2007, 10:23:43 AM
That state of the goonion (http://www.sendspace.com/file/zqwejr) thing is out now, kind of makes goonswarm sound like a bunch of assholes (proud of it though).  I already know BoB are assholes.  CCP are clearly assholes.

That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Der Helm on May 31, 2007, 10:27:56 AM
That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.

You have to be an asshole to enjoy it.


I just resubbed.  :oops:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 31, 2007, 10:29:15 AM
That state of the goonion (http://www.sendspace.com/file/zqwejr) thing is out now, kind of makes goonswarm sound like a bunch of assholes (proud of it though).  I already know BoB are assholes.  CCP are clearly assholes.

That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.

If nothing else, they are all comfortable with one another.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 31, 2007, 10:57:15 AM
Going back to the POS bowling thing, guess which alliance got their first ever supercap (a mothership) today?  :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Reg on May 31, 2007, 12:11:01 PM
Quote
Going back to the POS bowling thing, guess which alliance got their first ever supercap (a mothership) today? 
All I can say is they better be in my goddam magic circle or there's gonna be hell to pay.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Morat20 on May 31, 2007, 12:15:50 PM
That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.

You have to be an asshole to enjoy it.


I just resubbed.  :oops:
CCP knows drama. :) TNT should sue.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Hellinar on May 31, 2007, 12:23:24 PM
It wasn't ignored but what can you say to someone who believes normal rules of customer service might not apply if you happen to live in Iceland.  Iceland, oh different, shiny, expanding rock, fish.
What can you say to someone who believes every culture is American, or trying to be American. The "normal" ideas of customer service are shaped by the culture you are in. Coming from another rock with fish similar to Iceland, I think Sutro is dead on in his analysis.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: TheDreamr on May 31, 2007, 12:59:51 PM
That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.

Sadly "hardcore" groups are about the only people who can effectively hold onto 0.0 territory these days, as evidenced by the rather spectacular fall of several alliances who'd "gone soft" ... and at that level any serious competition between groups is pretty much guaranteed to turn into ass-hattery sooner or later.

There is a lot more to eve than just territorial alliance ass-hattery, but if you want the 0.0 experience then you need to accept the politics and general bullshit that comes with it while you get fat off the "easy money".


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 31, 2007, 01:16:12 PM
It was interesting and probably accurate, but I hesitate to call it (Sutro's post) dead on.  CCP is a global company with a global game with employees from all over the globe who live on at least 3 continents.  The Icelandic founders were MMO enthusiasts who studied game theory.  Customer service is a global endeavor and the models for a successful system are in place in almost every successful MMO (including EVE).  

CCP knows right and wrong, and what will and will not cause a shitstorm among their players.  T20 was not fired because he is a valuable employee.  They made an ethical decision to have him take his lumps, apologize to the community himself and keep his position in the company.  I can't argue that decision.  Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit.  

Icelandic isolation does not explain the bigger questions such as "why not remove the rigged BPO's as soon as they were found - and not only after the community went nutzo over them?"  Kieron's answer to that very questions was "I do not know - it was a bad decision."  They do know what good and bad CS decisions are.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Der Helm on May 31, 2007, 01:25:20 PM
Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit. 

Wow, I never noticed that.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 31, 2007, 01:30:18 PM
Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit.

Is this actually true?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Morat20 on May 31, 2007, 01:32:04 PM
Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit. 

Wow, I never noticed that.
If that's true -- and I have no knowledge about that either way -- it's probably just a matter of "not worth the time for someone to work out how they work". They're not broken, they add a bit of flavor, and it's just not worth anyone's time. It'll probably sit there until someone either comes up with a really good idea that requires work on the billboards, or some Dev gets a bug up his ass about it and spends a few weeks worth of lunch-breaks working it out.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Der Helm on May 31, 2007, 01:35:10 PM
If that's true -- and I have no knowledge about that either way -- it's probably just a matter of "not worth the time for someone to work out how they work". They're not broken, they add a bit of flavor, and it's just not worth anyone's time. It'll probably sit there until someone either comes up with a really good idea that requires work on the billboards, or some Dev gets a bug up his ass about it and spends a few weeks worth of lunch-breaks working it out.

I think I remember that these billboards where "repeating" the news you see on the character selection screen. But that was months years ago. Never checked them after that.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 31, 2007, 01:40:58 PM
Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit. 

Wow, I never noticed that.
If that's true -- and I have no knowledge about that either way -- it's probably just a matter of "not worth the time for someone to work out how they work". They're not broken, they add a bit of flavor, and it's just not worth anyone's time. It'll probably sit there until someone either comes up with a really good idea that requires work on the billboards, or some Dev gets a bug up his ass about it and spends a few weeks worth of lunch-breaks working it out.
It is true, from what I've seen in more than one place. The point is that sort of stuff really ought to be documented, or at the very least more than one person needs to know how they work. What if the sole person who understands how random_vital_piece_of_code actually works gets hit by a bus tomorrow? CCP will just stop updating that particular part of the game?

It's just another example that CCP still treats EVE as their hobby, instead of a business.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Yoru on May 31, 2007, 01:45:21 PM
Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit. 

Wow, I never noticed that.
If that's true -- and I have no knowledge about that either way -- it's probably just a matter of "not worth the time for someone to work out how they work". They're not broken, they add a bit of flavor, and it's just not worth anyone's time. It'll probably sit there until someone either comes up with a really good idea that requires work on the billboards, or some Dev gets a bug up his ass about it and spends a few weeks worth of lunch-breaks working it out.
It is true, from what I've seen in more than one place. The point is that sort of stuff really ought to be documented, or at the very least more than one person needs to know how they work. What if the sole person who understands how random_vital_piece_of_code actually works gets hit by a bus tomorrow? CCP will just stop updating that particular part of the game?

It's just another example that CCP still treats EVE as their hobby, instead of a business.

That sort of crap happens in software all the time. "How does Widget X work?" "Dunno, Jimbob worked on it. He quit two years ago." "... crap."


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Fmar on May 31, 2007, 01:49:03 PM
That sort of crap happens in software all the time. "How does Widget X work?" "Dunno, Jimbob worked on it. He quit two years ago." "... crap."

Probably more than we know.
I remember reading a ww2online dev blog where he was complaining about something similar...


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 31, 2007, 01:54:26 PM
They are in the most highly populated areas of the game.  They are giant objects that do nothing and were supposed to be pretty cool.  It's an eyesore and embarrassment.  If a developer has time to lead an alliances capital fleet he can look into the giant eyesore billboards.  Especially if he is a company founder.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Yoru on May 31, 2007, 01:56:37 PM
They are in the most highly populated areas of the game.  They are giant objects that do nothing and were supposed to be pretty cool.  It's an eyesore and embarrassment.  If a developer has time to lead an alliances capital fleet he can look into the giant eyesore billboards.  Especially if he is a company founder.

If you're referring to Enslaver... he was an intern. And I don't think he was an engineering intern, at that.

You can turn the self-righteous indignance down a notch.  :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Simond on May 31, 2007, 02:11:08 PM
*cough*T20*cough*  :-P


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Morat20 on May 31, 2007, 02:11:34 PM
It is true, from what I've seen in more than one place. The point is that sort of stuff really ought to be documented, or at the very least more than one person needs to know how they work. What if the sole person who understands how random_vital_piece_of_code actually works gets hit by a bus tomorrow? CCP will just stop updating that particular part of the game?

It's just another example that CCP still treats EVE as their hobby, instead of a business.
It probably is documented -- the question is "where". Pretty much every software project ends up like that. All the main features are documented, but there's tons of small stuff that's only loosely documented, or documented solely in the code itself. If it's something that was added mostly because "someone thought it was cool, and it was obviously not going to interfere with the main game" then it's even less likely to be documented on a high level.

The EVE billboards seem pretty likely to be one of those "Someone had an idea, or some intern god assigned to do it because it wasn't critical" objects that's probably only documented in the source code itself. If they wanted to get rid of billboards entirely, they probably could very easily. If they wanted to do something more with them, it requires someone wading in there and finding the relevent code, then working out what invokes the object, then working out how long it'll take to change. It's extra work when there are more critical issues on the table.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 31, 2007, 02:17:42 PM
They are in the most highly populated areas of the game.  They are giant objects that do nothing and were supposed to be pretty cool.  It's an eyesore and embarrassment.  If a developer has time to lead an alliances capital fleet he can look into the giant eyesore billboards.  Especially if he is a company founder.

If you're referring to Enslaver... he was an intern. And I don't think he was an engineering intern, at that.

You can turn the self-righteous indignance down a notch.  :roll:

I wasn't referring to Enslaver.  What happened to that guy was wrong.  If I came across self-righteous then I'm sorry.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 31, 2007, 03:20:37 PM
It wasn't ignored but what can you say to someone who believes normal rules of customer service might not apply if you happen to live in Iceland.  Iceland, oh different, shiny, expanding rock, fish.
What can you say to someone who believes every culture is American, or trying to be American. The "normal" ideas of customer service are shaped by the culture you are in. Coming from another rock with fish similar to Iceland, I think Sutro is dead on in his analysis.

You see that's exactly why it wasn't worth getting into, if we make allowances for nationality on the internet then you have to judge people in part by their nationality.  It doesn't matter how accurate his comments were, the conversation that will result will be unpleasant.  I'm not from America btw.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on May 31, 2007, 04:06:51 PM
No, you're a dog with a flatcap.

KNEEL.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 31, 2007, 04:15:08 PM
To further illustrate how stupid and offensive the nationality discussion could quickly get.

I'm not kneeling for you, from my understanding of the Scottish stereotype, I'd likely only get a tiny biscuit.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 31, 2007, 04:22:25 PM
Hoots.  Jings.  Crivvens.

You want all our oil and a bigger biscuit?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: DraconianOne on May 31, 2007, 04:31:30 PM
Hoots.  Jings.  Crivvens.

You want all our oil and a bigger biscuit?

And your women (first night only), and your freedom and your fealty.  But not those silly skirt things you wear.





Hold on... I'm Welsh... what the fuck do I have to be proud about?*

*Apart from Kathryn Jenkins that is.  And beating England in the rugby this year. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Furiously on May 31, 2007, 04:37:04 PM
No, you're a dog with a flatcap.

KNEEL.

I made a new avatar for you to steal. Just let me know when I can stop using it... And for everyone else... KNEEL


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 31, 2007, 04:40:59 PM
Hoots.  Jings.  Crivvens.

You want all our oil and a bigger biscuit?

Pumping oil out is bad but it could be worse like, what they do to our sea. (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/nuclear-meltdown)

Quote
Ireland is the country most affected by the UK's nuclear industry. Sellafield is only 60 miles away from the Irish coast and has been pumping 2 million gallons of liquid radioactive waste into the Irish Sea every day, making the Irish Sea the most radioactive sea in the world.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: DraconianOne on May 31, 2007, 04:43:50 PM
[
Quote
Ireland is the country most affected by the UK's nuclear industry. Sellafield is only 60 miles away from the Irish coast and has been pumping 2 million gallons of liquid radioactive waste into the Irish Sea every day, making the Irish Sea the most radioactive sea in the world.

I used to swim in the Irish Sea nearly every day when I was growing up.  That'll be why it was so warm.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: tazelbain on May 31, 2007, 04:50:50 PM
And why you have a healthy glow about you!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on May 31, 2007, 05:08:49 PM
[
Quote
Ireland is the country most affected by the UK's nuclear industry. Sellafield is only 60 miles away from the Irish coast and has been pumping 2 million gallons of liquid radioactive waste into the Irish Sea every day, making the Irish Sea the most radioactive sea in the world.

I used to swim in the Irish Sea nearly every day when I was growing up.  That'll be why it was so warm.

Tuh, you were lucky!  I used to eat mussels from the Solway coast that I gathered myself.  And my father a nuclear physicist, too  :roll:

And my apologies, arthur, for the vile calumny.  If i had known, I would have made a joke about ski-masks and AK47s instead.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Morat20 on May 31, 2007, 05:18:24 PM
Hold on... I'm Welsh... what the fuck do I have to be proud about?*

*Apart from Kathryn Jenkins that is.  And beating England in the rugby this year. 
You have the weirdest spelled language in all the world? And you like were really good with longbows, or something? And you're historically less pissy at the English than anyone else in the area?

It's almost brag-worthy.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 31, 2007, 05:46:55 PM
And my apologies, arthur, for the vile calumny.  If i had known, I would have made a joke about ski-masks and AK47s instead.

No problem, mercury tilt switch under your chair, you'll probably be fine, just don't lean back.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Hellinar on May 31, 2007, 06:33:16 PM
You see that's exactly why it wasn't worth getting into, if we make allowances for nationality on the internet then you have to judge people in part by their nationality.  It doesn't matter how accurate his comments were, the conversation that will result will be unpleasant.  I'm not from America btw.
I'd concede your point about nationality discussion potentially getting nasty. How about community size? In my locally run favorite coffee bar, "known" customers get better customer service than less well known ones. The local branch of Starbucks follows a more rigorous "all customers are equal" service model. Playing favorites with your customers works for some businesses on a small scale, but doesn't scale well. I think CCP has grown too far too fast for their culture to catch up.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 31, 2007, 07:39:58 PM
(shrug) Nation - or more accurately, culture - of origin is a huge component of how we relate with others. If we can't talk in civil terms about cultural differences and how they effect our relations in virtual worlds, we're ignoring one of the largest, if not the largest, components of the equation. Specifically in CCP's case, they react so unusually and so divergent from what a NA company in the same position would do that there seems to be more at stake than just "well, they're weird."

I don't believe nationality is this "sacred cow" of the Internet that we all have to look past. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it and can't talk about it civilly, just don't talk about it.

Besides, I'm not claiming that cultural differential is the entire story here with CCP. A lack of a basic understanding of PR is probably a larger share of the issue. Threatening legal action against the leadership of a noticeable percentage of your customers is almost never the right move.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 31, 2007, 08:23:45 PM
Now, I know absolutely nothing about Icelandic culture,

(shrug) Nation - or more accurately, culture - of origin is a huge component of how we relate with others. If we can't talk in civil terms about cultural differences and how they effect our relations in virtual worlds, we're ignoring one of the largest, if not the largest, components of the equation. Specifically in CCP's case, they react so unusually and so divergent from what a NA company in the same position would do that there seems to be more at stake than just "well, they're weird."

I don't believe nationality is this "sacred cow" of the Internet that we all have to look past. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it and can't talk about it civilly, just don't talk about it.

Besides, I'm not claiming that cultural differential is the entire story here with CCP. A lack of a basic understanding of PR is probably a larger share of the issue. Threatening legal action against the leadership of a noticeable percentage of your customers is almost never the right move.

-Sutro

I'm perfectly happy to talk about whatever you want.  But you wanted to relate how CCP deals with players based on the culture of Iceland while admitting you know nothing about Icelandic culture.  You already knew the answer "not well" and then justified the answer, it stuck me as being totally pointless. 

It doesn't matter if you are 100% correct on all your points, you may well be, it's still mental masturbation and easily offensive.  As I imagine we don't have many people from Iceland posting here, I thought I'd just point that out.

Not trying to be a dick here, but my Australian friend used to have great fun in England being rude and blunt.  He believed (rightly or wrongly) that English people expected that from Australians and excused his rude behaviour easily, so in the end it just encouraged him to be rude and blunt to them.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: CmdrSlack on May 31, 2007, 08:37:46 PM
Quote

It doesn't matter if you are 100% correct on all your points, you may well be, it's still mental masturbation and easily offensive.  As I imagine we don't have many people from Iceland posting here, I thought I'd just point that out.

In related news, Bjork said she'd kick his ass.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 31, 2007, 08:56:49 PM
Well, my sphere of experience in forming that hypothesis includes researching postings about the social environment of Iceland, taking what I know personally from study about countries and communities that have demographics and geographies similar to Iceland, and the generally accepted sociological posit that a company's culture, regardless of if it is international or not, tends to reflect that of its founders' culture. (If you question that foundational argument, I'll need to organize my citations on the topic and PM you, let me know.)

Have I lived in Iceland or been to Iceland? No.

Did I write that post just because I figured I could get away with it since there's no one (or very few) people from Iceland who will see it and throw the bullshit flag? No. Although, I'd welcome anyone who has personal experience with Icelandic corporate and social culture to call me a pompous dick and that I'm wrong.

Taking what you know and synthesizing it into conclusions is the foundation of social research, even if you have no personal experience with it. Some of our most celebrated theories (granted, they're based on a greater body of evidence than I'm citing here) include things that no one can have personal experience with - black holes, relativity, etc. At the end of the day, they're still educated guesses, which is all I'm claiming.

The argument that, "Since no one we know of here has any personal experience with Icelandic culture, we can't talk about any effect it might have," sets an unacceptable bound on our thinkable thought when trying to determine why CCP relates to the playerbase the way it does.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on May 31, 2007, 09:14:15 PM
Goonfleet had a few Icelanders and a good many members went to the fanfest.  They stayed at two corp member's houses who lived on the island.  Their opinion of CCP is pretty damn low - at least it was the last I saw one of them post.  We never got into whether the culture had anything to do with their perceived corruption.

The most I've read about the place is one of David Rakoff's essays talking about the folk tales regarding gnomes.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Sutro on May 31, 2007, 09:58:06 PM
In case you're interested:

http://iceland.is/history-and-culture//nr/80

http://games.slashdot.org/games/07/03/15/0726233.shtml?tid=209
(The first paragraph is illuminating.)

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2004/08/01/377359/index.htm
(Grafs 9 and 10)

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/articles/1124reykjavik.html


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Chimpy on May 31, 2007, 09:59:54 PM
The turn this thread has taken in the last few hours is quite intruiging.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 01, 2007, 04:19:04 AM
The turn this thread has taken in the last few hours is quite intruiging.

The message I choose to take from it is that Iceland itself is the problem, and that we must wipe it clean and start afresh.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Trippy on June 01, 2007, 05:19:51 AM
Pics moved to here:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=10140.0


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 01, 2007, 07:00:06 AM
Well, my sphere of experience in forming that hypothesis includes researching postings about the social environment of Iceland, taking what I know personally from study about countries and communities that have demographics and geographies similar to Iceland, and the generally accepted sociological posit that a company's culture, regardless of if it is international or not, tends to reflect that of its founders' culture. (If you question that foundational argument, I'll need to organize my citations on the topic and PM you, let me know.)

Have I lived in Iceland or been to Iceland? No.

Did I write that post just because I figured I could get away with it since there's no one (or very few) people from Iceland who will see it and throw the bullshit flag? No. Although, I'd welcome anyone who has personal experience with Icelandic corporate and social culture to call me a pompous dick and that I'm wrong.

Taking what you know and synthesizing it into conclusions is the foundation of social research, even if you have no personal experience with it. Some of our most celebrated theories (granted, they're based on a greater body of evidence than I'm citing here) include things that no one can have personal experience with - black holes, relativity, etc. At the end of the day, they're still educated guesses, which is all I'm claiming.

The argument that, "Since no one we know of here has any personal experience with Icelandic culture, we can't talk about any effect it might have," sets an unacceptable bound on our thinkable thought when trying to determine why CCP relates to the playerbase the way it does.

-Sutro

Sutro, let's test your ideas on national culture affecting community relations.

I have honestly always wondered what the interactions will be like between the devs and players of the first mmorpg based in Ireland.  It's only a single letter different from Iceland and I'd be grateful if you enlightment me with your predictions on the subject, just general trends is fine, I'm not after specific details.

Here's a lin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland)k to help get you started.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandel page 9!
Post by: DraconianOne on June 01, 2007, 07:34:05 AM
I have honestly always wondered what the interactions will be like between the devs and players of the first mmorpg based in Ireland. 

Oh god please no!  It'll be an MMO set in the fictional world of Killinaskully and the first expansion would add the Craggy Island zone.  Player perception will be one of Cčad Mile Fąilte at first with friendly CM staff and positive Dev interaction but after a few drinks patches the Devs would start getting abusive and be yelling things like "G'way, you bunch of cuhnts!" at the player base.

The game itself would probably play something like this:

Questgiving NPC: How are you, so?
Player: Eh?
NPC: Will ya be wanting ta kill some rats for us, right so?
Player: Um... I don't know.  Will I?
NPC: Of course ya feckin' will, sure enough!
Player: Is there a reward?
NPC: You're some kind o' scammin' Nigerian wanker, so you are.  Reward?  You can have a feckin' Jumbo Breakfast Roll d'ya know what I mean ,like?  What was I saying?
Player: Err...
NPC: With chips.
Player: Chips?
NPC: Plenty of chips.

Interaction between the Devs and Server admin folk will probably involve marching through each others areas with banners and flags and brass bands once a year BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE'VE ALWAYS DONE AND WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO DO, AS IS OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT STRIKE ME DOWN IF IT AINT SO!

Or something!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Engels on June 01, 2007, 07:49:32 AM
I like this new guy. Fek.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: cevik on June 01, 2007, 10:01:47 AM
Sutro is the most full of shit ass talker I've ever seen in my entire life.

It's okay that I was bluntly honest with you, because I'm from Cevikhatesyouallia and that's the culture where I'm from.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Sutro on June 01, 2007, 10:46:23 AM
(http://img.consumating.com/photos/10832/large/70743.jpg)

All the same, I'll take the bait. Should have something worked up by tomorrow. I'll pass on Wikipedia.

-Sutro


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: gimpyone on June 01, 2007, 12:17:12 PM
The guy that read the "State of the Goonion" has been banned from SA apparently for trying to assert he has copyright control over the speech.  Even SA hates Goonfleet I suppose.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Miasma on June 01, 2007, 12:35:13 PM
Holy crap you're right, he sent the game forum mods a PM
Quote
howdy sir.

There is a link in the "State of the goonion" thread in "Your Consloe sucks" subforum which contains a recording of my voice reading a speech last night to members of goonfleet on our private team speak server.

This recording is copywritten material, with the copyright owned by me.

I am a professional voice actor, and parts of this recording are possibly to be used in a revenu generating music recording which is currently being worked on by myself and several other members of goonfleet.

I am not trying to create a drama situation, nor do I have any beef with anyone, but permission was never granted for this recording to be posted here in any manner whatsoever.

I therefore am asking you if you could remove the link to the file.

Thank you.

What a douchebag, how the fuck can you claim posting a link to a file that your own people published on the internet is somehow violating a copyright.  Based on just that alone I suddenly do believe the latest drama was a fabrication.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on June 01, 2007, 12:38:54 PM
The guy that read the "State of the Goonion" has been banned from SA apparently for trying to assert he has copyright control over the speech.  Even SA hates Goonfleet I suppose.

Yeah that has been true for a while (the hating, I mean).

After Ireland can you do tribal Africa?  I want to know the effects of penis gourd size on petition response time.




Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: TheDreamr on June 01, 2007, 01:36:42 PM
Transparency ... CCP style; "CCP Admiral Chamrajnagar" has either been renamed or deleted, searching for them ingame turns up no results and the forum thread asking why goes unanswered.

Does CCP actually have public relations staff?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Comstar on June 01, 2007, 01:47:58 PM
What a douchebag, how the fuck can you claim posting a link to a file that your own people published on the internet is somehow violating a copyright.  Based on just that alone I suddenly do believe the latest drama was a fabrication.

Farking hell, it's true? Good grief.

Losing the Goonfleet thread in SA means a lot less newbies joining goonfleet. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yoru on June 01, 2007, 01:49:56 PM
Transparency ... CCP style; "CCP Admiral Chamrajnagar" has either been renamed or deleted, searching for them ingame turns up no results and the forum thread asking why goes unanswered.

Does CCP actually have public relations staff?

Yes. They just subcontract it to the Department of Homeland Security. ;)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Morat20 on June 01, 2007, 01:52:15 PM
So, could someone explain -- what the hell just happened to goonfleet? Bonus points if you can prove BoB used CCP to do it. :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Hellinar on June 01, 2007, 02:04:23 PM
After Ireland can you do tribal Africa?

I think in tribal Africa you would get on average a better CS response if you were from the same tribe, and spoke the same language as, the CS reps. I’m with Sutro that a company’s culture affects its responses to events. And that culture is in turn affected by the culture of its founders and location. Seems “obvious” to me. The debatable point is, how big is the affect? Is it at all relevant when talking about CPP?

I’ve got little experience of Iceland, but a lot of experience with a nearby Atlantic island with similar population and a historic reliance on fish. My experience in Newfoundland is that the small size of the population removes the presumed anonymity of the average customer. The assumption that the average customer is an anonymous walking wallet breaks down. Customers will get upset  if you treat them in the “all customers are anonymous” style appropriate to big business in big populations.

I think CPPs difficulties with CS are being affected by the culture they started in. I doubt if diet and drink habits have much effect though. :-)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 01, 2007, 02:11:25 PM
Farking hell, it's true? Good grief.

Losing the Goonfleet thread in SA means a lot less newbies joining goonfleet. 

Axe Maniac is a twat, and he's been openly itching to ban eve threads for ages.. Sending it to YCS is a nice touch, though.

We'll no doubt still be welcomed for adbot, so I imagine that we'll probably just link from that to a publically viewable GF thread instead.

We didn't want that thread, anyway  :-P


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 01, 2007, 02:19:26 PM
...Assuming that El Pinto Grande doesn't get pissed off at Axe Maniac first.
EPG's still a directors of The Greater Goon (the 'other' goon corp), right?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Grand Design on June 01, 2007, 02:46:02 PM
I've played EvE for almost two years, so I think I can comment on this.  I've also read SomethingAwful for longer than that, so, again, I can probably comment on this.  Reading this thread over the course of the past week, I find myself going from one end of the spectrum to the other.  At first, like most, I was astounded that, once again, CCP is caught red-handed helping out their friends in BoB. (And I came this >< close to canceling.)  But, the more that I read from Goons, the more I realized that this was above and beyond the current 'metagame' of EvE.  CCP has become the prime target of the Goons; they will tell you that it's BoB, but since they draw no distinction between the two, rightfully so or not, CCP is the target.  And, further, this is not Goons, this is SA vs. CCP.  For any Goon to believe in his or her heart of hearts that they just "love the game and want to do the right thing," is naive at best, psychologically incapable of detecting deception at worst.  SA is and always has been the source of grief; their targets vary, as do their agents, but the goal of SA has always been to laugh at the grief that they can cause.  And it's funny; like I said, I've read it for years.  However, it appears that, in forming this juggernaut of a conflict, SA have taken a lot of folks who honestly do enjoy EvE and are using them for their own (pick an adjective) goals.  Which is why I'm sure this post will piss some of you off - I'm not being patronizing, I really think that you are being taken for a ride by SA.  Time will tell.

As for this current 'metagame' we are witnessing:  Metagame is a euphemism for reality.  What is "beyond the game", well, only one thing and you're either living in it or denying it.  Look at what has happened on both sides of the issue.  On one, we have the developers of the game giving aid to their friends in the most powerful alliance in the game: metagame.  On the other side, we have a popular humor website forming an alliance to grief the powerful alliance: metagame.  Both sides are skirting the rules and giving precedence to the "metagame" over the game.  One has the goal of making their game bigger and better for profit and status; the other has the goal of making the game into laughing stock for profit and status.  This is the reason for the conflict.  I cannot make it any simpler.  When I boil it down to that, I have to take sides with CCP - at least it is their baby and they don't want to hurt it (though they obviously have in their poor decisions.)  SA wants to kill, kill, kill it, and then post the entire ridiculous saga on their website, logs, videos and all, complete with snide, tongue-in-cheek commentary and sell gigantoid advertising and profit, profit, profit.  Does SA do anything but what I've just described?   

I hope I didn't piss anyone off - this is really how I see this conflict and its not meant to pick on anyone.  And, for the record, I belong to no corp, no alliance and have no friends.  Wow, thats sad when you type it.  I have two accounts and will continue to subscribe.  Though I do find CCP's responses far from convincing, they have created one of the coolest pieces of software I've seen and deserve compensation for that.  Hopefully they will realize that being in bed with BoB severely hurts their credibility.  Hopefully the community will realize that CCP is not getting out of bed with BoB. 

Or have I completely missed the mark?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Miasma on June 01, 2007, 02:48:18 PM
...Assuming that El Pinto Grande doesn't get pissed off at Axe Maniac first.
EPG's still a directors of The Greater Goon (the 'other' goon corp), right?
"I love how they drag my name into it like I'm going to give an unfair advantage to the corporation I haven't talked to in like a year." (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?postid=328604017&highlight=#post328604017)

"Boy, you guys really shit the bed big time with this one." (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?postid=328591968&highlight=#post328591968)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 01, 2007, 02:53:47 PM
So, could someone explain -- what the hell just happened to goonfleet? Bonus points if you can prove BoB used CCP to do it. :)

Either a goon did something incredibly stupid by trying to enforce copywrite on a teamspeak recording about a space guild against SA or SA forum moderators got trolled epic style. 

I'm still not sure which it was.

Either way it was really stupid to get Eve discussion banned in the games forum.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: ajax34i on June 01, 2007, 02:58:36 PM
When I boil it down to that, I have to take sides with CCP

When I boil it down to whatever it is, I don't care, one way or another.  I used to have good will towards dev houses, appreciate them for creating something, but right now I'm indifferent:  if you provide something that's useful to me, I will buy, otherwise no.  I don't have any special good will towards tomato growers, I either buy their tomatoes or not; I will not buy rotten tomatoes simply because the farmer has worked hard or long hours or whatever.

Goons are griefers.  I've been turned off by griefers, and EVE encourages the behavior.  Plus, it's buggy.  I quit because of the bugs, and I don't care about CCP or what happens to them, and I don't care about the game.  Patches throughout the last 3 years - buggy.  My standards have raised.

This is just entertaining reading.  I don't follow the links or dig for info, I just read the briefs here.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Lum on June 01, 2007, 03:02:17 PM
Either way it was really stupid to get Eve discussion banned in the games forum.

It did give us some nice music, though. (http://www.brokentoys.org/files/goonsquadrap.mp3)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Miasma on June 01, 2007, 03:06:48 PM
What have you done, that's copyrighted, now you're going to get sued!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 01, 2007, 03:07:07 PM
"I love how they drag my name into it like I'm going to give an unfair advantage to the corporation I haven't talked to in like a year." (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?postid=328604017&highlight=#post328604017)
The 'haven't talked to in a year' refers to Goonfleet, not TGG.
But whatever - banner ads it is then.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 01, 2007, 03:37:57 PM
Either way it was really stupid to get Eve discussion banned in the games forum.

It did give us some nice music, though. (http://www.brokentoys.org/files/goonsquadrap.mp3)

There was a thread on the goonfleet forums a few weeks ago saying SA had gone downhill with the recent moderation changes.  Quite a few people were posting that goonfleet had evolved like some kind of mutant child to make a better community than SA, all this seems to have proved them wrong.

I laughed myself silly at the "state of the goonion" thread in YCS, there are very few places you can get that kind of entertainment.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 01, 2007, 06:32:31 PM
The problem is that GoonFleet has a split personality, in several different directions.  There's the Something-Awful-culture-jamming crowd, the Eve-griefers-need-love-too crowd, and the 10-bucks-is-better-than-10-million-SP crowd.  Remedial was in the first camp, The Mittani was in the second, and Nate Hammertown/Mawg seems to be in the third.

In Eve, losing a war tends to either seal the cracks of a community, or split them wide open (usually the latter).

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 01, 2007, 07:02:11 PM
The problem is that GoonFleet has a split personality, in several different directions.  There's the Something-Awful-culture-jamming crowd, the Eve-griefers-need-love-too crowd, and the 10-bucks-is-better-than-10-million-SP crowd.  Remedial was in the first camp, The Mittani was in the second, and Nate Hammertown/Mawg seems to be in the third.

In Eve, losing a war tends to either seal the cracks of a community, or split them wide open (usually the latter).

--Dave

Dave just do yourself a favour and stop posting about goonfleet.  Nate Hammertown/Mawg is not the CEO, in fact it's two people, Nate Hammertown just trolled eveo mods into thinking he was the new CEO.  Mawg is the idiot who threatened legal action against SA for a spaceship game (I'm convinced it wasn't a troll now), guess he didn't know there was a frontpage, he's an actor who rose to fame because he reads books over teamspeak.  Your intelligence network is terrible if you don't even know the name of the new goonswarm CEO.

Edit - Rereading this I should say, I meant intelligence as in spying etc, so added network after intelligence


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on June 01, 2007, 07:07:49 PM
Then please enlighten us who is.

Or STFU.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 01, 2007, 07:17:17 PM
Then please enlighten us who is.

Or STFU.

Ok but you have to understand what I'm about to tell you is one of goonfleet's most closely guarded secrets.  The knowledge I'm about to impart has been handed down from goon to goon for a period of months stretching as far back as to the founding of goonfleet and if rumours are true, possibly even further.

Do not repeat this information anywhere else, I shall deny all knowledge and edit this post to cover my tracks.

From within game, click the "people and places" icon, change search type to "corporation", enter search string of "goonfleet", now for the clever bit, click "search".  From the box that pops up (I like to call this a "window") right click "goonfleet" and left click "show info".  Under attriibutes note down the following information CEO, "name".

This message will now self destruct.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: CmdrSlack on June 01, 2007, 08:20:47 PM
The problem is that GoonFleet has a split personality, in several different directions.  There's the Something-Awful-culture-jamming crowd, the Eve-griefers-need-love-too crowd, and the 10-bucks-is-better-than-10-million-SP crowd.  Remedial was in the first camp, The Mittani was in the second, and Nate Hammertown/Mawg seems to be in the third.

In Eve, losing a war tends to either seal the cracks of a community, or split them wide open (usually the latter).

--Dave

Dave just do yourself a favour and stop posting about goonfleet.  Nate Hammertown/Mawg is not the CEO, in fact it's two people, Nate Hammertown just trolled eveo mods into thinking he was the new CEO.  Mawg is the idiot who threatened legal action against SA for a spaceship game (I'm convinced it wasn't a troll now), guess he didn't know there was a frontpage, he's an actor who rose to fame because he reads books over teamspeak.  Your intelligence network is terrible if you don't even know the name of the new goonswarm CEO.

Edit - Rereading this I should say, I meant intelligence as in spying etc, so added network after intelligence


I think Dave's main disconnect is that he doesn't understand the cultural differences between Goons and himself.  You see, Goons come from the nation of Buka (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/second-life-safari/bushmen-buka.php).  Things are different in Buka, and that is causing his confusion.  As I undestand it from Wikipedia, the people of Buka share one of those crank-to-operate One Child Per Laptop latptops.  That likely makes it SEEM like they have a fractured presence in Eve and other games.

A little cultural relativisim never hurt anyone.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 01, 2007, 08:50:41 PM
No, my problem is that the Goons are so fond of misdirection, dramabombs, and general trolling that I just don't have enough *interest* to pick through it all and figure out who is actually in charge over there right now.  If anyone can really be said to be.  Whoever the actual CEO is, from what I heard in the "State of the Goonion", he falls into the third camp.

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on June 01, 2007, 11:15:18 PM
No, my problem is that the Goons are so fond of misdirection, dramabombs, and general trolling that I just don't have enough *interest* to pick through it all and figure out who is actually in charge over there right now.  If anyone can really be said to be.  Whoever the actual CEO is, from what I heard in the "State of the Goonion", he falls into the third camp.

--Dave

Sesfan (one of the games top FC's) is the new CEO.  He's a beloved figure in Goonfleet.  Mittani retired and is not really running things from behind the scenes.  So don't think or say that - because that is not what is happening.  Definitely not.

Also the CEO did not read or write the State of the Goonion.  Mittani did before he retired to not run things from out of game.  Mawg Spawn read it for him because Mittani sounds like Data from Star Trek: TNG and doesn't feel he has an inspiring voice.  Then Mawg Spawn tried the worst prank in the history of pranks and got permabanned from SA for it.

Nate Hammertown had a mock campaign for CEO after Mittani cancelled his account earlier this week to lighten the mood and it was so funny it worked.  So now when anyone asks who the CEO is goons say Nate Hammertown.




Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 02, 2007, 01:11:14 AM
See, now that I know that The Mittani wrote it, I know I can't trust a damned thing about it.  Including that The Mittani wrote it.  I gave up trying to gather intel about the Goons a long time ago, there's no better counter-intel method than being totally bugfuck insane.  And yeah, I know that you guys will take that as a compliment (although you might act like you don't, just to fuck with me now that I said that).

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yoru on June 02, 2007, 01:17:02 AM
See, now that I know that The Mittani wrote it, I know I can't trust a damned thing about it.  Including that The Mittani wrote it.  I gave up trying to gather intel about the Goons a long time ago, there's no better counter-intel method than being totally bugfuck insane.  And yeah, I know that you guys will take that as a compliment (although you might act like you don't, just to fuck with me now that I said that).

--Dave

Maybe that's what they want you to think. Unless they want you to think that that's what they'd want you to think. Unless they want you to think that since they'd want you to think that that's what they want you to think.

... fuck it, how about a nice game of Chess?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 02, 2007, 01:42:58 AM
See, now that I know that The Mittani wrote it, I know I can't trust a damned thing about it.  Including that The Mittani wrote it.  I gave up trying to gather intel about the Goons a long time ago, there's no better counter-intel method than being totally bugfuck insane.  And yeah, I know that you guys will take that as a compliment (although you might act like you don't, just to fuck with me now that I said that).

--Dave

Maybe that's what they want you to think. Unless they want you to think that that's what they'd want you to think. Unless they want you to think that since they'd want you to think that that's what they want you to think.

... fuck it, how about a nice game of Chess?


Fight me.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on June 02, 2007, 02:16:41 AM
See, now that I know that The Mittani wrote it, I know I can't trust a damned thing about it.  Including that The Mittani wrote it.  I gave up trying to gather intel about the Goons a long time ago, there's no better counter-intel method than being totally bugfuck insane.  And yeah, I know that you guys will take that as a compliment (although you might act like you don't, just to fuck with me now that I said that).

--Dave

He's just some lawyer from the D.C. area.  Maybe I mentioned before - LOTS of lawyers in GoonFleet.  Seriously - like over fifty.

The GF forums have every op ever run in big bold letters with after-op reports in their own forums.  Intel is pitifully easy to gather.

I guess if there is some hidden strength it's that most people expect a bunch of griefers who call each other fags and argue with one another endlessly about every stupid detail of every stupid thing to be ...stupid.  It's normally not the case.  Their FC's rock and leadership is generally a step ahead.  They have an uncanny knack for cocking things up too, though.  Normally through over-reacting to assumed slights.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: gimpyone on June 02, 2007, 02:34:18 AM
By the way Dave, those of us who like hearing two sides of an argument appreciate you going to the gallows every time you post here.
Carry on.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on June 02, 2007, 08:48:33 AM
IA reply to MSN and missing petition gate(s):
http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=530053#6944846


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 02, 2007, 09:02:03 AM
Quote
There are specific rules in place forbidding players from bragging about GM or developer connections, especially implying that you can get people banned or fired, or that your contacts have put you in a position where you are above the law in EVE. If someone says something to that effect to you ingame, please petition it using the ęHarassmentĘ category and we will deal with it as harshly as our policies allow. If anyone has evidence of such interaction being used improperly, to further anyoneĘs cause ingame, I urge them to contact us through the internalaffairs@ccpgames.com email address. We will investigate all such claims to the best of our abilities.
Good job nothing like that has ever happened in EVE!!!

 :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on June 02, 2007, 09:21:18 AM
You could say he royally trolled entire GS:P


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: CmdrSlack on June 02, 2007, 10:02:10 AM
No, my problem is that the Goons are so fond of misdirection, dramabombs, and general trolling that I just don't have enough *interest* to pick through it all and figure out who is actually in charge over there right now.  If anyone can really be said to be.  Whoever the actual CEO is, from what I heard in the "State of the Goonion", he falls into the third camp.

--Dave

And Dave falls into the sarchasm.  ;)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 02, 2007, 01:57:47 PM
Huh. (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=530070)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 02, 2007, 03:37:38 PM
My favorite quote.

Quote
Clearly he was removed from the game as a character due to the outcome of the thorough CCP internal affairs investigation that showed no wrong doing.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on June 02, 2007, 04:11:49 PM
That got my goodnight giggle.


Quote
But petitioning is so sloooowwwww, isn't there some faster way to contact the devs?


Was also a gem.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: neep on June 03, 2007, 09:54:40 AM
Most of the things at play here seem to be direct consequences from the fact its an unsharded mmo.

Mix a single group of players, being on the forefront of new developments since the start, hence having better dev contacts than anybody else, (show me a game where this doesn't happen/hasn't happened and I'll buy you a beer) and a accumulative resentment towards that group of players for 'whatever good reason' and the fact that, those who feel slighted, will most likely never get the upper hand in the game and you'll have yourself the perfect recipe for a nuclear  MMO drama coctail.
And more importantly, no real way to get out of the mess.

In heavily sharded games like WoW there is a constant migration between realms, both by people who want to join their friends and, more importantly, people who are distinctively unhappy and want to look for a better future elsewhere.
Call it 'migration of the unhappy' if you will.
This facilitating of the 'migration of the unhappy' is brilliant. That is why nobody ever thought anything of it until it happened anyway.
You give people an immense breath of freedom if you allow them to go somewhere else (while retaining all they have) and start again. Free.
Because MMO's are about fantasy, and in selling fantasy its important to give people a chance to start anew and leave their history behind, unsharded mmo's fail in this, not because of their mechanics but because thats how people are.
If I hate Mike, and I know where Mike hangs out, i'll try to kill him with my new character too. Of course I will, its how we are.
Eve's main problem is not about its hardware, its about how much human frustration one unsharded realm can hold.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on June 03, 2007, 12:12:19 PM
That doesn't account for most.  'Most' of it has occurred as a direct result of CCP incompetance and mishandling of PR and CS.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: 5150 on June 04, 2007, 06:31:06 AM
So when do we all spam the devs asking for their MSN contact info?

The more CCP posts the more I'm moving from the 'CCP are cheaters' to the 'CCP really are just utterly fucking stupid' camp


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Teleku on June 04, 2007, 07:34:05 AM
How sad, this thread has almost caught up to the War thread in post #'s.  I suppose thats a bad sign.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Wolf on June 06, 2007, 02:37:25 PM
heh I just remembered that CCP stands for Crowd Control Productions. The Irony.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: ajax34i on June 06, 2007, 02:58:27 PM
It's likely that CCP stands for something else in Icelandic and they just picked some words to match the acronym, CC and P leading to crowd control and productions respectively.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 07, 2007, 03:57:25 AM
It increasingly looks like Goonfleet may have managed to wring some concessions from CCP after all.  Obviously, they've been publicly defensive of their devs' right to rank highly in BoB, to play BF1942 with them and so on, but there are some cracks.  The NY Times covered the GF protest, and reports that CCP are going to set up an elected, player-oversight committee (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&oref=slogin).  The dynamics of what that can do will be important, particularly given the numbers involved.  Will it be one-account-one-vote, I wonder, working on a PR-list system?  Will they have any powers beyond being flown to Iceland and getting a powerpoint presentation and a nice tour of the offices?

The Admiral Chandramandrawandra renaming at least points to the fact that he was seen as irretrievably tainted.  If only CCP would swallow their pride and spin what they are doing as confession-and reparation instead of trying to hush them up then they might actually salvage some goodwill.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Velorath on June 07, 2007, 04:50:51 AM
It increasingly looks like Goonfleet may have managed to wring some concessions from CCP after all.  Obviously, they've been publicly defensive of their devs' right to rank highly in BoB, to play BF1942 with them and so on, but there are some cracks.  The NY Times covered the GF protest, and reports that CCP are going to set up an elected, player-oversight committee (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&oref=slogin).  The dynamics of what that can do will be important, particularly given the numbers involved.  Will it be one-account-one-vote, I wonder, working on a PR-list system?  Will they have any powers beyond being flown to Iceland and getting a powerpoint presentation and a nice tour of the offices?

The Admiral Chandramandrawandra renaming at least points to the fact that he was seen as irretrievably tainted.  If only CCP would swallow their pride and spin what they are doing as confession-and reparation instead of trying to hush them up then they might actually salvage some goodwill.

So... the people accused of cheating are going to prove they aren't cheating by... scheduling times when players will come out there and make sure they aren't cheating?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 07, 2007, 04:58:11 AM
So... the people accused of cheating are going to prove they aren't cheating by... scheduling times when players will come out there and make sure they aren't cheating?

You got it.  Iliked this SA response:

"Giving a bunch of Comic Book Guys an all blowjobs paid tour of Iceland and then getting them to publicly state that you're awesome is not my idea of transparency."


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on June 07, 2007, 04:59:03 AM
It's going to be nine from BoB&pets anyway, so don't worry:P


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 07, 2007, 05:04:00 AM
I think it's a good thing.  The initial response of blaming it all on goonfleet was a mistake, there's no way that an alliance of 4000 people who pay to play your game created a situation to harm the game (excluding the comedy losing the war option).

They had to address the situation somehow and I'd imagine the recent plans to spend $7 million on marketing and releasing a cheap box set helped.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=25506

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=25491

Quote
Low priced disc set for global roll-out

CCP has confirmed to GamesIndustry.biz that EVE Online will be released on DVD in the US, UK, Russia, Japan and other countries in the next two months.

Speaking in an interview at the company's offices in Reykjavik marketing director Magnus Bergsson said, "It's not going to be the typical retail box. We will do a counter-top, slim-case DVD. It's going to be a 14-day trial with a little booklet and you're going to be able to buy is for USD 3.99 or USD 2.99, or something like that.

"We just got the final codes from the manufacturer to make this, but it takes time. So let's say in two months time it'll be in full distribution," he added.

CCP said that the recent merger with US-based White Wolf will allow them to release a physical version of EVE - currently available as a free download and played by more than 200,000 users.

"This is being done in cooperation with White Wolf as they have such a great experience with physical distribution," said Bergsson.

"You need to have a warehouse, you need to have people taking orders and everything else. We've never really had that, and now we do, and we are getting into physical distribution, not only in the US, but also in Eastern Europe, where people often have to pay from downloads from abroad... Those people are concerned about downloads, even though the client is only 640MB."

Quote
Icelandic firm in talks with IBM and Microsoft

CCP's Magnus Bergsson has revealed that the company has set aside a large marketing budget for 2007 and is in talks with IBM and Microsoft about ways to handle the influx of new EVE Online players.

"This year we're spending about USD 7 million in marketing," Bergsson told GamesIndustry.biz.

"The hardcore gamers know about EVE... So we're expanding. We're still going to be in the hardcore gaming media, but we're adding more general gaming and even portals like Yahoo!.

"We need to expand, because if we're going to go beyond 300,000 subscribers, we can't just do that with hardcore gamers."

The significant marketing push, the first in the game's history, coupled with the growing popularity of EVE Online, has prompted CCP to enter into a round of research with IBM and Microsoft as the game's user-base soars past 200,000. EVE is played on a single server, as opposed to the shard model employed by other MMO operators such as Blizzard and NCsoft.

"Personally, I don't worry about the issue of performance," said Bergsson. “[New users] will just mean more money for us to invest in new hardware. There are new CPUs coming out, and we just have to swap out the old and move in with new.

"IBM has been really good at working with us and getting us the latest hardware. It's been great working with them," he added.

CCP is currently pushing for more than 300,000 EVE subscribers, a goal that will take the game's user-base higher than the population of Iceland. Bergsson said his personal goal was to top the figure before the end of the year.

Visit GamesIndustry.biz later this week to read the full interview



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ratadm on June 07, 2007, 05:18:55 AM

Quote
"Personally, I don't worry about the issue of performance," said Bergsson. “[New users] will just mean more money for us to invest in new hardware. There are new CPUs coming out, and we just have to swap out the old and move in with new.
  Hah.  Don't worry guys our servers can't really handle as many people as we have right now but even though information we need to send will go up geometrically and our income gain will be linear it'll work out.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 07, 2007, 05:41:49 AM
Yeah, I'm swaying away from 'corrupt' and back toward 'inept, verging on moronic' in my opinion of CCP.

Although it will be hilarious when the oversight committee turns out to be five BoB/minions and four random Empire players that have never gone below 0.5 sec.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on June 07, 2007, 06:11:21 AM
3 out of which will turn out to be bob empire alts. :evil:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Nevermore on June 07, 2007, 08:02:23 AM
CCP should hire an ombudsman.  Seriously.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Dravalen on June 07, 2007, 09:48:48 AM
Wow:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on June 07, 2007, 10:00:40 AM
What a bunch of wank.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Raging Turtle on June 07, 2007, 10:41:15 AM
An article like that is only going to help the game.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 07, 2007, 10:46:39 AM
The NY Times covered the GF protest, and reports that CCP are going to set up an elected, player-oversight committee (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&oref=slogin).

Wow:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Whoa. Deja vu.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Dravalen on June 07, 2007, 11:04:56 AM
Sorry, didn't see any mention when I scanned the thread so I thought I'd post a link to the actual article.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Shavnir on June 07, 2007, 01:13:10 PM
I wonder if they'll rig the vote.  Or if they even need to.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: ajax34i on June 07, 2007, 01:43:53 PM
So these people are, what, the elected players that get to have dev contacts and devs on call?  I suppose it's better than the devs picking whom they favor.  Or at least, it'll just shut the playerbase up, cause "hey, YOU guys elected them, it's not our fault!".


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Comstar on June 07, 2007, 02:01:29 PM
I'm voting for goonswarm.

'Corse I am open to bribes. Most of EVE is open to bribes. It's how gameplay often works.

Edit: Actually, this makes sense for political parties to form. Vote for the 9 Men on the goonswarm/Bob/IAC/Outbreak ticket, and YOUR CHARACTER will get 10 million ISK. Proabably need a complicated Senate form (first past the post? Proportional representation? Can Alts vote?).



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Nevermore on June 07, 2007, 02:23:21 PM
I'd vote for The Mittani just so I could see MahrinSkel's head explode.  :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: LC on June 08, 2007, 05:35:57 AM
Wow:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

I'm going to nominate the BoB leadership plus a few pet leaders.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 08, 2007, 08:48:44 AM
That's a good point - could CCP employees be elected to this 'oversight council' on their play accounts?

10 Print "Everything is fine here"
20 Goto 10


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 08, 2007, 09:33:15 AM
That's a good point - could CCP employees be elected to this 'oversight council' on their play accounts?

10 Print "Everything is fine here"
20 Goto 10

Even CCP, High Kings of the land of Fuckuptopia, would see the results of that one being found out.  Shortly, I admit, after saying, "hey, you know what would be good?  We could all get ourselves electe.. ohnowait".

It'll be interesting to hear what Kugutsumen, or Remedial, or the Mitanni or (my choice) Firstname Lastname or whoever the SA&Pals-backed candidate is say about the visit.  Not just from the point of view of "all we saw was a powerpoint presentation saying how honest CCP was then a free bar and a stage-hypnotist that I can't remember much about except the powerful urge to say the words 'nothing to see here'".  More from the point of view of "then Arkonor slapped DBP on the butt and kissed him with tongues before heading off to their room, giggling over a pile of BPOs".


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 08, 2007, 11:17:09 AM
Oh man, this thread just keeps getting better and better.  :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: JoeTF on June 09, 2007, 03:11:00 AM
Tbh, I would rather not have turds like Mittani gain read access to db. Chances they wouldn't abuse it are null.
Moreover, I don't believe a word GF says (kind of hard to after amount of outright lies and fabrications they peddled to us).
If you really want to achieve something with this oversight committee, you better elect some third party people.   


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Shavnir on June 09, 2007, 03:25:56 AM
I might concede GF isn't the most trustworthy body but people will naturally side with those that don't cheat.

I agree on the oversight committee thing though.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Murgos on June 09, 2007, 07:45:41 AM
Ya'll would probably be better off asking CCP to hire an auditing firm and then letting the community specify a few metrics for them to track.

CCP can maintain their privacy and the players get an independent third party giving them the data they want.

It's absurd that it's gotten to this point though.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: ajax34i on June 09, 2007, 10:13:42 AM
I don't think an auditing firm would work; if I were playing, I'd want the devs to get the hell out of my crap, out of the game, and just do their jobs and develop, not play.  Yes, I know they need to play the game in order to get feedback on it, but that shouldn't be play play, it should be interacting with the interface for the purpose of getting data out of it.  A job. 

If they announced some sort of auditing firm, I would ask for data on how many devs have regular player accounts, what percentage of them are in the major alliances, what percentage of them have position of power (director, etc.), how much ISK they have, how many T2 BPO's, and so on.  I.E. data I shouldn't have about regular players, but that I feel the need to have because devs are still playing the damn game and affecting it.

So, then, what would CCP do when these numbers get reported?  I don't think they want that.

What would satisfy me enough to return, at this point, would be all dev accounts being deleted, strict ban procedures for anyone attempting to contact a dev outside of petitions, and a marked and immediate improvement in the quality of their code and a reduction of the bugs (signifying that they've stopped playing the game and they've gone to work bugfixing and developing it).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Hellinar on June 09, 2007, 01:30:52 PM
I don't think an auditing firm would work; if I were playing, I'd want the devs to get the hell out of my crap, out of the game, and just do their jobs and develop, not play. 
I get the strong impression that the Devs at EVE built a game they wanted to play rather than a money optimization exercise. If you introduced an all work and no play environment, I think a lot of the current Devs would cash out, and hire people for whom it is just a job. Maybe it is time for that. A hard transition to make though, when the player-devs are also major stockholders.  People don't give up on their dreams for mere business reasons, unless they are absolutly forced to.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on June 09, 2007, 02:22:38 PM
Fucking Baffling Attitude there mate :  The time to cash out of that kinda shit is when people start putting cash INTO it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 09, 2007, 03:52:43 PM
Moreover, I don't believe a word GF says (kind of hard to after amount of outright lies and fabrications they peddled to us).

What lies?  The only thing even slightly inaccurate was caused by the CEO of darkstar1 being a bit dim and saying his petition got deleted, then saying oops, maybe my client crashed when logging it.  I thought this was covered pages ago.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 09, 2007, 04:06:03 PM
Indeed, and to give CCP their due they admitted that the way they handled that petition was wrong and open to suspicion, and have said that they will change their practises in future.

But Joe's post was written in a rush: he had to get back under his bridge to waylay travellers.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 09, 2007, 04:10:51 PM
I'm still concerned about all of these new people posting on OUR forum. They aren't showing proper respect and deference to the old Foozles. If we don't nip this in the bud they might tell their friends and overwhelm us with numbers!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: neep on June 09, 2007, 05:57:49 PM
yea, lets kick em.

Its not like CCP will get their credit back from the haters/forum drama queens anyway.
A lot of people of seem to be having a good time with eve. It is one of the few online games that is capable of continuous growth through the years.
Looks like they are doing something right.

Anyway, once we clean the goons up, the real war can start.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on June 09, 2007, 06:51:01 PM
Oh hey, BoB's here.

Like... Shut the fuck up.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yoru on June 09, 2007, 09:43:53 PM
I'm still concerned about all of these new people posting on OUR forum. They aren't showing proper respect and deference to the old Foozles. If we don't nip this in the bud they might tell their friends and overwhelm us with numbers!

Well done sir.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: ajax34i on June 09, 2007, 09:55:34 PM
Heh, fyi you've also been linked from the WoW general discussion forums on at least one occasion, I've seen it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Trippy on June 09, 2007, 10:13:47 PM
Those bastards!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on June 10, 2007, 01:41:01 AM
Heh, fyi you've also been linked from the WoW general discussion forums on at least one occasion, I've seen it.

I can't imagine a worse fate.  I also can't imagine why....


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Der Helm on June 10, 2007, 03:16:58 AM
I can't imagine a worse fate.  I also can't imagine why....

F13-Board thread of the day ? :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Trippy on June 10, 2007, 03:27:28 AM
That might make schild's head explode.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 11, 2007, 12:26:23 PM
CCP doesn't like Goonswarm. (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/8355) :lol:
Also contains leet beta infos on how to survive titan DDs.  :roll:

Oh, and tip for the day - if you're a member of ISD with access to the petition database...make sure you log out before leaving your PC, otherwise your room-mate might just take all that information and hand it to a disgruntled hacker (who we shall call 'K') working in SE Asia. Whoops!




Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Montague on June 11, 2007, 12:44:00 PM
CCP doesn't like Goonswarm. (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/8355) :lol:
Also contains leet beta infos on how to survive titan DDs.  :roll:

Oh, and tip for the day - if you're a member of ISD with access to the petition database...make sure you log out before leaving your PC, otherwise your room-mate might just take all that information and hand it to a disgruntled hacker (who we shall call 'K') working in SE Asia. Whoops!



CCP wants 300k subscribers by the end of the year? A 50% increase?

Of course, EVE's well balanced and readily accessible endgame coupled with CCP's sterling reputation for honesty and integrity has me hovering my finger over the Subscribe button right now.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Shavnir on June 11, 2007, 01:32:52 PM
Quote
Magnus: They refuse to admit that they’re losing to another alliance, and the only explanation that they can figure out is that those guys are cheating. Not just that they’re cheating, but that they’re cheating in cooperation with employees at CCP. That seems to be the only logical explanation that they’re coming up with.

Clearly we would never do anything like that.  Right t20?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 11, 2007, 01:45:54 PM
Is it just me or does that Magnus guy come across as a complete dick? He seems to be blissfully unaware of the obvious bias he expresses through most of the interview. It's not the the BoB vs. Goonfleet  stuff either. His disdain for empire guys like me is quite obvious as well.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yegolev on June 11, 2007, 01:47:19 PM
Not just you, I got that from previous interviews, from Magnus and Hrothgar or whatever the head-honcho's name is.  Hilmar?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Krakrok on June 11, 2007, 02:12:37 PM
His disdain for empire guys like me is quite obvious as well.

$$$ overcomes disdain however otherwise they wouldn't have Empire safety and they wouldn't have nerfed the Privateers.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 11, 2007, 03:13:36 PM
Oh yea. Trust me. Us Empire based casuals are well aware of who is printing the CCP money hats and paying for these overgrown children to make the 0.0 game they want. I don't think it's too much to ask that they at least restrain their sneers while they take our money.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: neep on June 11, 2007, 03:35:45 PM
I always got the impression CCP just saw empire as 'newbie area' where people would learn the ropes for a few months and then move on to 0.0. They still can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that the more casual or pve oriented players might want to stick around in empire just because they are actually enjoying themselves more there than they would in 0.0.
Alliance PVP is king in Eve and CCP, just like a lot of MMO houses, seems to think that investing in their end game e-peen is more important than catering to the casual crowd.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yegolev on June 11, 2007, 03:47:28 PM
If that's the case, sounds like they don't "get" their own game, which seems pretty reasonable now that I think about it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Merusk on June 11, 2007, 04:19:03 PM
I always got the impression CCP just saw empire as 'newbie area' where people would learn the ropes for a few months and then move on to 0.0. They still can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that the more casual or pve oriented players might want to stick around in empire just because they are actually enjoying themselves more there than they would in 0.0.
Alliance PVP is king in Eve and CCP, just like a lot of MMO houses, seems to think that investing in their end game e-peen is more important than catering to the casual crowd.

You are correct.  This came up before, and someone provided links to some posts that pretty much explained this as the exact case.  CCP really wants everyone to move into low-sec at 'mid-level' and live in 0.0. That's why getting-up the funds for a BS or better is damned hard in lowsec, and infuriating in empire.   It's also why CCP moved the better agents out into low/no sec a while back.

There's no reason to keep all the 'good stuff' out in low sec.  None.  The 0.0 catasses will come here and argue, but there's plenty of security in their 0.0 money-waterfalls that make their PvE just as secure as Empire.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Montague on June 11, 2007, 05:14:32 PM
It just keeps getting better. So now one of the ISD's took a confidential file and splashed it all over the net.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=535208

CCP is so full of :popcorn: that Orville Redenbacher should buy them.





Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 11, 2007, 05:19:30 PM
It just keeps getting better. So now one of the ISD's took a confidential file and splashed it all over the net.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=535208

CCP is so full of :popcorn: that Orville Redenbacher should buy them.





Is there a non-censored version of that somewhere? What actually happened?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Miasma on June 11, 2007, 05:40:27 PM
Quote
Needless to say, the CCP staff involved in the investigation are thoroughly disgusted by the actions taken by this volunteer anddealt with this misconduct in what we feel is the most just and severe manner possible.
If only CCP got all "disgusted" when it's their own paid employees who pull crap like this instead of some random guy on the internet.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 11, 2007, 06:05:44 PM
Just how freaking stupid are they that volunteers would have access to this stuff in the first place?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 11, 2007, 06:15:58 PM
Is there a non-censored version of that somewhere? What actually happened?

It's all company confidential so don't think it's wise to post any of it here.  I haven't seen the complete archive, but lots of comedy emails from dbp (A high level BoB guy) to the forum mods are being reposted in various places.  Such as him informing them he doesn't like being referred to as supreme lord and master of the self-fellating half-wit division of BoB and please deal with the nasty person who said it etc etc


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 11, 2007, 06:20:13 PM
Oh, so it was just personal emails and stuff like that. Good, because for a second there i thought they'd gone and suffed something else up.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Drogo on June 11, 2007, 06:23:39 PM
It is getting so that CCP cannot even go a month without a major scandal or other PR nightmare exploding in their laps. The real fun of EVE is not internet spaceships, but rather the forum drama that surrounds it.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 11, 2007, 06:29:49 PM
Personal emails and some RL names, where people signed their emails and so on. DB Preacher's name, for instance - and, apparently, all of his colleagues at Rockstar North think he's an idiot outside of EVE too.
(ZOMG devs in BoB  :lol:)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 11, 2007, 06:33:12 PM
Oh, so it was just personal emails and stuff like that. Good, because for a second there i thought they'd gone and suffed something else up.

Emails with real names, job titles, company info, telephone numbers plus the complete forum & game account warning/banning incident history of individual accounts, I'm tempted to link an extensive account history but don't want to cause trouble.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Righ on June 11, 2007, 07:12:14 PM
Just how freaking stupid are they that volunteers would have access to this stuff in the first place?

It's established that no matter how well-meaning they are, they are precisely this freaking stupid:





Oh, doesn't fit on the screen width. Support suggests that you try a wider screen.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Miasma on June 11, 2007, 07:21:43 PM
I'm tempted to link an extensive account history but don't want to cause trouble.
So, what if you just, you know, linked to somewhere where someone else linked to a place that is actually hosting this?  I don't think you could get in trouble for linking to a link to a place :wink:.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Righ on June 11, 2007, 07:25:04 PM
Just post in useless conversation with a strange paragraph where the first letter of each word can be used to derive some hidden meaning. I do that all the time.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Comstar on June 11, 2007, 07:40:48 PM
It's not the the BoB vs. Goonfleet  stuff either. His disdain for empire guys like me is quite obvious as well.

I got the impression that CCP sneers at anyone they consider losers. And that's anyone being beaten by "the winners". BoB is the winners. The rest of us are chumps losers who deseve everthing BoB wants to do to us.


As for today's Dramabomb (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=535208), it appers to have been deleted off SHC (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=5971&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) (not surprising) AND superspyhackers K's site (which very much is).  Why would K NOT want to put mud on CCP's face (again)? A ISD volentter posts a years worth of internal and customer corrsspondence for the public (before it got deleted everywhere).The only thing I've read of scandel is a noted BoB/MC(?) player said he hadn't got any warnings, and it was posted that he indeed, had.

Also that BoB diplomat/object of hatred/loser of mothership DB Preacher is a developer at Rock Star Games(?!?).

However, it seems CCP acted VERY quickly this time, though there's a lot of questions on how a ISD volunteer got access to real players names/address/phone numbers etc.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Krakrok on June 11, 2007, 07:53:29 PM

I'm inclined to think that most large companies think all of their consumer customers are losers. The disconnect with CCP is that some of their employees are also their consumer customers.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: MahrinSkel on June 11, 2007, 10:40:30 PM
So, tell me again, why is it surprising that a developer not working for CCP might be a hardcore Eve player?

--Dave


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ratadm on June 11, 2007, 10:47:17 PM
So, tell me again, why is it surprising that a developer not working for CCP might be a hardcore Eve player?

--Dave
Pretty sure there is none.  DBP has talked about being a dev for rockstar on sch when there was discussion about the relationship between devs and players.  Although I honestly don't see why people care that much about who people are out of games.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yoru on June 12, 2007, 12:07:18 AM
So, tell me again, why is it surprising that a developer not working for CCP might be a hardcore Eve player?

--Dave

Says the red name.  :-P

DBP, from what I've gathered of rumors, works on the GTA series for Rockstar North. Why is this interesting? Because the emails whining about being called names on an internet forum contrast strongly with his senior position on one of the series that has been more or less a media darling for the videogame violence debate.

Remember kids, it's okay to beat a hooker, but not to write nasty things on the interwebs!

The way this information was found out, supposedly, is that the emails to ISD contained his real name and email address, which were quickly Internet Detectived to his occupation.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: UnSub on June 12, 2007, 12:11:24 AM
That's another big minus for MMOG volunteer programs then. As if it didn't end horribly for pretty much every other MMOG that's used one and has had over (say) 5 000 players.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 12, 2007, 12:55:14 AM
It's well past time for CCP to take the easy way out and cancel the volunteer programs entirely. Hell, they can buy some properly written forum software while they're at it. Normally, I'd just suggest that they tighten up security on their existing programs but honestly, I don't think they're bright enough to do it at this point. Best just to shut it all down.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 12, 2007, 03:49:42 AM
So, tell me again, why is it surprising that a developer not working for CCP might be a hardcore Eve player?

I liked the email from James Don (Fix Chairman), saying that they needed the loot from the C-7 complex because they were under immense pressure and "really needed the income", quick.

But yes, that whole thing was made for me when one of dbp's colleagues mentioned that they had a party ("just a little one") when he broke his leg.  It makes sense that he's a colossal arse IRL, too.  I have a mate at Rockstar (it's just a hundred or so yards from my house) who I'm probably drinking with on Friday: I'll be asking him about the truth of our Andy's unpopularity in work.

Oh, and Sir Molle isn't far away from a forum permaban: 8 warnings at the last count, and two bans so far.

Edit:  Oh, and if you want some quality sci-fi, don't read Dark Shikari's ripping yarn (http://www.bucconeer.worldcon.org/contest/2002sf12.htm).  It begins: "It was morning in Kladconia, a province of Rotor, the second planet of the Aksonian system."  It might not be the Isaac Asimov story it rips off, but give that lad a few years and he'll have his own, terrifying religion.  Hail Xenu!

Incompetent CCP idiots, keeping private info where it can be so easily compromised by an unpaid volunteer. Bob and pets seem to be those most affected, though, so I doubt if they'll sue their pals at CCP (which they'd be quite entitled to do, under EU law at least). I guess the trouble with being down with the devs is that the devs take you down with them.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Comstar on June 12, 2007, 06:31:55 AM
edit: never mind


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on June 12, 2007, 06:42:00 AM
YEAH, YOU BETTER TAKE THAT BACK !


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Fordel on June 12, 2007, 08:35:52 AM
Now I want to know what was edited! :(


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 12, 2007, 09:20:22 AM
CCP's PR team strikes again! (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=5988&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) Seems that Scrapheap Challenge is about on a par with Goonswarm in CCP's eyes:

Quote from: Calmdown
Wrangler has informed me that SHC has a reputation with CCP for being a place to bash ISD and CCP, something which we already knew. This is largely due to the fact that CCP will not take public criticism on their own forums. That does not mean that SHC is anti-CCP or anti-ISD. If it was, we wouldn't have 25000 posts in the ship setups forums. We wouldn't have people discussing why they love this game, people helping newbies to fit their ships, or people talking about balance issues in a game that they love. You have to take the bad with the good, CCP; SHC is a fair place where you will get both compliments and criticism. This forum has never been anything but, at it's heart, an Eve forum. It is run and populated by players who have, particularly over the last few months, been extremely concerned about the more trollish and 'bad' posts that we get here. It is not a forum of people who hate you, and I'm sure any of you who read it much know that.

Now, it seems that in CCP's minds, even if they haven't posted it in so many words, SHC was in some way responsible for this. If they think that, then so be it. This forum has never had their blessing before, and it certainly doesn't nor will ever have now. CCP, if you wish to count us among your 'enemies' by blaming us for this outbreak rather than looking at why your own systems failed and this happened in the first place, then so be it. We still don't count you as an enemy. You produce a game that we love (or in my case, loved) and we respect that. But if my respect falls on deaf ears, then so be it. I'm not going to shoulder blame for you, and I will not have my community and moderators dragged through the mud to further your own agendas.

Alienating the top 3rd party fansite for your game while your company name is already mud takes a special kind of genius.

Like I said elsewhere: CCP are hobbyists trying to run a business, and they will keep making mistake after mistake until they try to get a little more professional, or until they go bust.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 12, 2007, 09:51:36 AM
They're making the OSI of ten years ago look like rocket scientists at this point. Honest to God, I'd never have believed any game company could out stupid OSI circa 1998-99 or so. And worst of all they aren't even making new mistakes.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Raging Turtle on June 12, 2007, 10:15:23 AM
Kind of sad how CCP has gone from The Good Guys to Incompetent Devs at Company X over the past year. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 12, 2007, 10:22:57 AM
...and CCP has apologized to SHC.
That's, what, two apologies by CCP in two days after badmouthing parts of their playerbase? A new record, surely.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Fordel on June 12, 2007, 10:28:16 AM
CCP was always the incompetent guy, its just before they were the lovable idiot instead of the plain old idiot.

Having SHC hate isn't surprising, as it seems SHC is the unofficial retreat where all the banned EVE-O forum whores go. Mostly the people who point out all of CCP's flaws :p


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 12, 2007, 10:37:14 AM
Kind of sad how CCP has gone from The Good Guys to Incompetent Devs at Company X over the past year. 

It is a radical transformation.  That said, I don't think the bumbling incompetence is really their biggest problem, in those terms.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 12, 2007, 10:38:26 AM
...and CCP has apologized to SHC.
That's, what, two apologies by CCP in two days after badmouthing parts of their playerbase? A new record, surely.

Which was the first apology?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 12, 2007, 10:40:50 AM
The CEO of CCP apologizing to most of Goonswarm after that Ten Ton Hammer interview.

Probably through gritted teeth. :D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Lum on June 12, 2007, 10:49:45 AM
So, tell me again, why is it surprising that a developer not working for CCP might be a hardcore Eve player?

--Dave

Shh. We're not supposed to play games.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 12, 2007, 10:50:49 AM
The CEO of CCP apologizing to most of Goonswarm after that Ten Ton Hammer interview.

Probably through gritted teeth. :D

Oooh, linky, please?  I want to post and congratulate him gracefully and condescendingly on apologising for his company when they abuse their single biggest customer-group.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Righ on June 12, 2007, 11:05:00 AM
Incompetent CCP idiots, keeping private info where it can be so easily compromised by an unpaid volunteer. Bob and pets seem to be those most affected, though, so I doubt if they'll sue their pals at CCP (which they'd be quite entitled to do, under EU law at least). I guess the trouble with being down with the devs is that the devs take you down with them.

No, CCP are naive for letting volunteers read support email. The prize incompetent idiot is the twat at Rockstar who sends emails to all and sundry with a signature block containing his full name and address. Also, more fool you for thinking "BoB and pets" are some happy real life entity. They're a bunch of people who play together in a game, and would have as little problem suing each other as they would CCP if it came down to it. I suspect that the idiot who emailed all his personal info unsolicited to an email account monitored by numerous unknown people will probably just try to slink away with his tail between his legs however.

Kind of sad how CCP has gone from The Good Guys to Incompetent Devs at Company X over the past year. 

In the Goon sponsored group think perhaps. To me they've always been a bunch of fannish beer swilling heavy metal kids from Iceland. Most games companies aren't set up like IBM or JP Morgan, and expecting them to behave in that manner is daft.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Vinadil on June 12, 2007, 11:59:46 AM
I don't claim to know the CCP Devs personally... but I have had experience with their game and community for 3 periods of time over the last 3 years (about 1.5 years of actual gametime), and I cannot say that they come off as anything but responsive and competent... as game designers.

I think most of this issue is completely about 0.0 space and the "end-game".  Obviously it DOES impact a large part of the active player base... buuut, I wonder just how much this is a case of squeaky wheels getting the grease.  Fact is there is a whole world that flies below the radar of all of these things and could care less about most of them.  The day-to-day gameplay is the same when I just re-upped my Sub (2 weeks ago) as it was in April 2006 (when I last turned it off).

As a game design model... the thing is amazing on so many levels.  Sustained growth over time?  Completely stable player-run economy?  PvP driven game with a Heavy death penalty that still has growth in active players (not just subs)... they do a whole lot of things right or else they are just REALLY lucky.

I guess it is hard for me to be Too hard on the guys when they obviously know something about making games... I don't expect them to be master PR pro's.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 12, 2007, 12:11:49 PM
I don't expect them to be PR pros either but seriously. They're out of niche game status now. They should hire real people to handle the community and PR at this point.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 12, 2007, 12:28:39 PM
Shh. We're not supposed to play games.
Playing games is fine. Cheating at games isn't.

Oooh, linky, please?  I want to post and congratulate him gracefully and condescendingly on apologising for his company when they abuse their single biggest customer-group.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=535165&page=2#59
Quote
I thought I jump in here, to prevent any further misunderstanding of what I actually said and meant.

I have met many Goonswarm pilots both in-game and out-of-game and I know they are only trying to enjoy the game like everyone else, and are far removed from all the stuff that has been happening lately. That comment I made pertains to those very few that seem to be masterminding the never ending attacks on CCP.

To the question if I actually play the game then the answer is yes, as I have stated many times before. That quote on the Doomsday device makes no sense to me also, so I must assume the editor simply misquoted, which is not that uncommon with phone interviews.

Now how about some positive posts about my other excellent comments ?  :wink:

I don't expect them to be PR pros either but seriously. They're out of niche game status now. They should hire real people to handle the community and PR at this point.
This. Sorry, but once your game have more active subs than Everquest, you don't get to act like you're just running a glorified private server which you're deigning to let people play on for money. What if SOE had pulled half the crap CCP's done in the last year - would they be getting a bye?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on June 12, 2007, 01:05:44 PM
It isn't so much a "bye."  People from all corners comment on how poorly they handle almost everything community related.  All anyone can do is play or not play. 

Kugutsumen's internet detecting makes them look terrible... to people who are already writing about them and people who will seemingly continue to pay for their product. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Righ on June 13, 2007, 02:48:50 AM
What if SOE had pulled half the crap CCP's done in the last year - would they be getting a bye?

Eh, they pretty much did. But you know, the company never kicked your dog and so your level of outrage seems excessive. I'm all for sitting back, enjoying the incompetence and eating popcorn, but the amount of frothing in this thread is bizarre.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Ironwood on June 13, 2007, 02:51:24 AM
I think you're exaggerating a little Righ.  Only 50% of the participants in the thread want to head over to Iceland and string these guys up from lightpoles.

 :-D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Shavnir on June 13, 2007, 03:21:41 AM
All this stuff just makes me glad I never played beyond the 7 day trial.  Who would want to play a game when the developers are known cheaters?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 13, 2007, 03:28:55 AM
What if SOE had pulled half the crap CCP's done in the last year - would they be getting a bye?

Eh, they pretty much did. But you know, the company never kicked your dog and so your level of outrage seems excessive. I'm all for sitting back, enjoying the incompetence and eating popcorn, but the amount of frothing in this thread is bizarre.
How many pages did the original SWG NGE thread go on for, again? How many Vanguard threads were there? And that's just two recent examples - it's just...odd that CCP get a pat on the head and "aaaw, aren't they the cutest little corrupt idiots with no clue how to run a business" while SOE get crucified.

Especially now that SOE has finally started showing some signs about having learnt at least some of their lessions whereas CCP is still in full-on "We can do no wrong and we're going to censor/ban anyone that can prove otherwise" mode (a la SOE of half a dozen years ago or so).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Morat20 on June 13, 2007, 05:33:40 AM
What if SOE had pulled half the crap CCP's done in the last year - would they be getting a bye?

Eh, they pretty much did. But you know, the company never kicked your dog and so your level of outrage seems excessive. I'm all for sitting back, enjoying the incompetence and eating popcorn, but the amount of frothing in this thread is bizarre.
How many pages did the original SWG NGE thread go on for, again? How many Vanguard threads were there? And that's just two recent examples - it's just...odd that CCP get a pat on the head and "aaaw, aren't they the cutest little corrupt idiots with no clue how to run a business" while SOE get crucified.

Especially now that SOE has finally started showing some signs about having learnt at least some of their lessions whereas CCP is still in full-on "We can do no wrong and we're going to censor/ban anyone that can prove otherwise" mode (a la SOE of half a dozen years ago or so).
I suspect it's because of the segmented nature of the game. If you're not a 0.0 pilot, you're not directly affected. If you ARE a 0.0 pilot -- odds are how you feel is affected by what side you're on (if you are on a side). And a lot of people just ignore it as a bunch of game and meta-gaming politics. It's rather hard to tell how much is the truth, how much is spin, and how much is really all that unusual for any game.

It's hard to really take whatever the latest allegations are seriously, because of the whole "Band of Developers" shit that goes with it. It feels like whining, and so I suspect a lot of people take it less seriously.

Frankly, I think the vast majority of EVE pilots just tune it out to a large degree. Places like here -- it seems more up front, because this is the sort of place people talk about that sort of thing. In game? Not so much.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 13, 2007, 05:53:57 AM
It'll be interesting to see if people's opinions of CCP change when their complaints about the impending economic, shall we say, event (triggered by the changes to complexes) also get summarily deleted and people are told to stop whining by CCP. :D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 13, 2007, 06:28:22 AM
The current situation follows a set pattern.

1. CCP Forum censorship of each new allegation (makes it worse)
2. CCP Blame the messenger (unprofessional, always makes it worse), twice in the last week they have had to say sorry for this.
3. CCP Change their policies or release a statement of intent to try to prevent future similar issues (A lot of the goodwill that would be generated because of this is lost because of 1 & 2)

T20 spawning items for BoB
Blamed K and banned his 5 accounts, made him a major source of new allegations.
CCP policy change, IA department created.

RP Events rigged
Blamed goonswarm (K was the source)
CCP statement.  Yes,  RP events are rigged but we promise not to favour one alliance with the rewards.

Dev joining a corp for unknown reasons
Blamed goonswarm (mistakes on both sides)
CCP policy change, in future devs will contact the corp before joining

Reporter getting fired by msn BoB contact
Blamed goonswarm (K was the source)
CCP policy change, players aren't allowed to boast about their msn dev contacts in-game.

It would be a better idea to just skip 1 & 2, lock the allegation threads with a "we are looking into it" comment and then jump to 3.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: cmlancas on June 13, 2007, 10:54:28 AM
But if they did this, I wouldn't give a shit about EVE online. I've read every page of this thread because it is grippingly good drama. Bravo CCP, Bravo.

This should be serialized and published.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Signe on June 13, 2007, 12:03:10 PM
I think EVE is a bore and I haven't read SA in years.  It stated out funny but the writing isn't good enough and the forums are just big circle jerks.  Laughed out loud when Uwe Boll beat Lowtax.  HA!  Still cracks me up.  Never cared for the Goons and their whiny exploitive gaming style, but I do have to admit, this thread delivers.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: UnSub on June 13, 2007, 10:41:02 PM
I agree with Signe - I've got no real interest in playing EVE or the names of the people involved, but it's the drama that is interesting.

EVE is (or should be, if people are paying attention) how games with strong PvP components shouldn't really be handled. Devs should not be allowed to join player guilds because it's like seeing the referee put on the colours of one of the teams - it just invites concerns about fairness and collusion. Volunteers should not be able to look at / get access to player / dev communications. Official forums have to allow a certain level of criticism along side the praise. And the rest of the things that CCP has had problems with recently.

You'd think these things would be common sense, but EVE is providing a pretty good case study on what happens when you don't do them.

On top of that, having a player-elected Oversight Committee - voted in by players (likely along corporation lines) and then given a free trip to 'audit' a company on their dime - is just a brilliant idea and at the least guarantees this thread will keep rolling along for the foreseeable future.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 14, 2007, 08:12:32 AM
More drama incoming.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 14, 2007, 08:15:46 AM
Oh god, yes.   :popcorn:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: DraconianOne on June 14, 2007, 08:20:19 AM
More drama incoming.

I'm on the edge of my seat!  Don't hold back... tell us all!  :-o


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 14, 2007, 08:30:44 AM
Fuck it, I'm just going to post it all if someone wants to object feel free to delete this post or den it.

Here it is. 

FYI
1. The Mittani is marauder841@yahoo.com
2. The Mittani doesn't like CCP
3. I personally believe CCP shouldn't staff organisations that control their pvp game with players from the game.

**************************************************************************

http://reaps.cacheboy.net/drama/fuckgoons.doc

TEXT ONLY VERSION


http://reaps.cacheboy.net/drama/eronarn.txt

Quote
NOTE 1: The contents of this letter were sent to the current CEO of Goonswarm, Sesfan Qu'lah, and brushed off as falsified despite him having prior knowledge of my involvement with The Mittani, and my status as an ISD volunteer. I would like to claim that the current directorate approves of openness about  past events, but this is quite obviously not the case. Out of a fear of reprisal against Goonswarm from outside elements, and presumably of similar actions against themselves by angered goons internally, he has decided to attempt to obfuscate the truth further rather than openly take a stance against corruption. Because of that, this letter comes without his approval. I hope that in time he, or whoever takes his place, will face these claims head on and either disprove them or come to terms with them rather than trying to take an evasive stance. Instead of treating the matter tactfully and attempting to come to a resolution that would either not involve anyone beyond the directorate, or a joint statement release of some kind, I have been brushed away and penalized for trying to expose the truth. While The Mittani, who is the subject of most of the claims in this letter, has quit EVE it is clear to me by my interactions with Goonswarm lately that his legacy remains.

NOTE 2: While these chatlogs will probably make me look just as bad as The Mittani, I would remind the reader that they were for the explicit purpose of gaining his trust and therefore needed to play up to his personality and beliefs. While it clearly worked, many of the claims or statements I make in these chatlogs are exaggerated for the purposes of bait, and are not necessarily my own personal beliefs even if there is some truth in a given statement.

   This letter is intended for the eyes of CCP, Aurora, ISD, SW (love you guys!), Internal Affairs, SHC, CAOD, Band of Brothers, Kugutsumen, EVE Online players in general, and most importantly - my lovely friends within Goonswarm to whom this letter is dedicated to in the first place:

   My name is James, though some of you will know me as Eronarn Palazzo or [EA]Hoorj (EA = Aurora Event Actor). I've actually gone by the latter two names far more regularly than my real one over the year in which I've enjoyed playing EVE. That period of my life has drawn to a close, sadly, but as I expected to play for three to six months when I first signed up as an innocent Goonswarm newbee the fact that it kept my attention for twice that is an impressive feat indeed. To be honest every player who hasn't quit despite the claims of scandal, allegations of abuse, broken game mechanics, terrible fleet lag, and so on can be considered proof of how unique EVE is in a genre flooded with derivative games. While I don't write this letter for the benefit of CCP I do generally approve of what they have done with their world, and I wish them the best with it in the future even if I won't be a part of it!

   Now that who I am has been made clear, I can proceed to the point of this letter. Originally I had planned to send this to IA for a preliminary evaluation and to obtain clearance to release it, but unfortunately a recent leak of chatlogs from another source has forced me to publish this letter early. I have been sitting on this information for months, but now is the most appropriate time to let it see the light of day. In short my claim can be described as this: The Mittani, spymaster and then CEO of Goonswarm, has been receiving aid on internal ISD/CCP affairs for the past several months in matters both trivial and important in the areas of Aurora events, future changes of game mechanics, and CCP staff personal information. Additionally, every single allegation made by Goonswarm in their most recent 'threadnought' / forums invasion / open letter was intentionally framed and deployed in a way designed to maximize damage to CCP's reputation both within its own game and in the eyes of the gaming community at large, if not outright faked or misrepresented to the point of absurdity. Those responsible for this wave of accusations knew from the start that they were utterly baseless, yet aggressively spread them regardless of that fact for the purposes of harming the public perception of their enemy and taking 'revenge' against CCP for the perceived mistreatment of Goonswarm.

   Parts of this claim, if you will note, mirror that of CCP's findings which were released as a rather strikingly harshly-worded in-game news report on the topic. I imagine that much of the public has already taken CCP's word as truth in this matter and in this case they are entirely correct in doing so. However, the matter is not entirely settled, in my opinion. I am sure that the investigation was carried out ethically and effectively by IA and I'm impressed with the response speed to it, especially given the fact that it was an attack planned around a holiday weekend. However, CCP's eventual castigation of the accusers was not nearly harsh enough. While IA did a good job in responding to the allegations in a forceful manner, showing that future false claims will not be tolerated, they did not have the necessary resources available to them to show conclusive proof of player misconduct rather than simply dispelling the false claims of developer misconduct. I have come to present proof that the former did occur – and I use myself to do so. Over the past few months I have been a source of NDA-restricted information to my alliance via direct communication with multiple directors including the then-CEO of Goonswarm, The Mittani. This behavior was not only allowed but was actively encouraged by the recipients, and was spread to others in the command structure (including the current CEO of Goonswarm) who similarly took no issue with the behavior and in fact found it to be a justified response to their enemies having engaged in the same. Therefore, the same people who organized the smear campaign against CCP were at the same time knowingly receiving illicit aid similar to what they accused their opponents (quite vocally) of obtaining.

   The proof that I am who I claim to be rests on my word alone. My sudden removal from the ISD program prevented me from obtaining conclusive proof of involvement with it other than the archived Aurora emails and event chatlogs that I still have, which I will not include as they are not directly relevant. The kind of persons who would doubt my claim of my identity are ones who wouldn't believe the contents of this letter anyways. I have my suspicions as to who tipped off CCP that I had been the source of a leak and thereby achieved my expulsion from ISD, given the timing of it, but it is truly not of much concern since I had been planning to leave ISD shortly in any case as part of the lengthy process of quitting EVE. While I am regretful that I left ISD and my many friends there with a ban rather than a wave and a smile, the situation has freed me to come forward like this sooner than if I had to instead wait until a later date. I now no longer have to worry about being removed from the program prematurely – that has already happened, after all. I therefore ask the reader to assume that I am telling the truth about my involvement with ISD and to also keep an open mind to the outrageous claims I will make.

   The proof that I am telling the truth about the aid given to Goonswarm directors and CEOs comes in the form of chatlogs. I don't have all the ones relevant to my claims because I communicated across multiple platforms and didn't have logging enabled in all of them, but what I do have should be sufficient to make even the staunchest goon supporter realize that they have been lied to by those in charge. Chatlogs can be faked, of course, but the sheer volume of the logs combined with the presence correct date/timestamps (which can be checked in reference to events as a marker of validity) should result in no other choice when viewing it but to have no reasonable doubts as to the truth of the contents included. I will not provide anything in the way of commentary and will instead leave interpretation of these chatlogs to others, though my contact information has been provided if clarifications on quotes are desired. As The Mittani would term it, here is my 'chatlog porn' clipped down to be easier on the eyes with the most incriminating statements in bold:


(4:34:23 PM) [Goon]: the directorate knows that there's no scandal right
(4:34:31 PM) [Goon Director]: yeah
(4:34:33 PM) [Goon]: k
(4:34:45 PM) [Goon Director]: mittani is right though, it's a good rumor


[NOTE: I have censored the identities involved for the above because both still play EVE. Chatlogs involving The Mittani are uncensored except for where leaving it uncensored might cause problems for a dev, GM, active player/alliance – except where they are necessary for comprehension of the chatlog such as having already been referenced in other public scandals, in which case censoring mention of it would be counterproductive for obvious reasons.]


[17:43] marauder841@yahoo.com: The problem with all these revelations about CCP as we infiltrate them is that the only response seems to be to infiltrate them more


[17:45] marauder841@yahoo.com: Hrm.
[17:45] marauder841@yahoo.com: OK, so what else can you get your hands on from CCP? If [Developer] is in [Alliance], no real reason to respect confidentiality of any kind. X(


[17:53] marauder841@yahoo.com: I suppose the alternative to being petty is to simply seed CCP with as many goon agents as possible
[17:53] marauder841@yahoo.com: How high can you climb?
[17:54] Eronarn: You can get a job at CCP pretty easily actually
[17:54] marauder841@yahoo.com: Do you have any interest in this?


[15:29] marauder841@yahoo.com: OK so this is huge, the new pos stuff
[15:29] marauder841@yahoo.com: the cyno inhibitors are a godsend to defensive war
[15:29] marauder841@yahoo.com: But we need to find out ASAP what the rough eta on these changes going live is
[15:30] Eronarn: not soon
[15:30] Eronarn: that stuff isn't even going to be fully working on sisi for a few weeks
[15:30] marauder841@yahoo.com: They're doing a lot of updating on test, I'm surprised this is even done at this pace thus far
[15:30] Eronarn: they want to get it on sisi asap so that people can test it
[15:31] Eronarn: not enough people have chaos access to test it effectively
[15:31] marauder841@yahoo.com: it'll be very hard to take space with this
[15:31] marauder841@yahoo.com: which is good if we get it in before a bob invasion, bad if bob takes over the galaxy before ti goes in
[15:32] Eronarn: keep in mind that you're going to need to have constellational sov and shit to make it work
[15:33] Eronarn: if it references sov on a POS fitting, 0 = no POS, 1 = system sov, 2 = constellational, 3 = regional, 4 = capital (one per region i think?)
[15:53] marauder841@yahoo.com: Back
[15:54] marauder841@yahoo.com: It seems to be getting a lot of active code focus is I suppose my point, like this is the 'next big thing' and it's getting someone's attentiont 23/7
[15:54] Eronarn: multiple someones actually
[15:54] Eronarn: different devs handling different aspects of the code
[15:55] Eronarn: [Developer 1], [Developer 2] is doing the actual POS modules and stuff. [Developer 3] i think is doing something internal for that
[15:55] Eronarn: [Developer 4] is doing the sov level stuff


[09:48] Eronarn: something doesn't add up with the way [Developer] described stuff in the devblog linked in the [New Feature] thread, it's old but either he's changed his opinion on [New Feature] or he's publicly campaigning for [New Feature] without actually believing [New Feature] do anything of the sort that he describes in that entry. may be worth looking into seeing what [Alliance] is saying about [New Feature] to try and get some circumstantial evidence and such
[09:49] marauder841@yahoo.com: How much contact are you having with the devs club lately?
[09:49] marauder841@yahoo.com: Also, how many of them are usefully homosexual, to be completely venal and blunt?
[09:49] Eronarn: haven't been talking to them much, the other faggots involved are making it difficult
[09:50] Eronarn: one of them is so obsessive that he sets a timer to tell him if [Developer] is late for logging into irc for that day or not
[09:50] marauder841@yahoo.com: A [Alliance] guy?
[09:50] Eronarn: he's never explicitly said but i think he implied he was in [Alliance]
[09:51] Eronarn: he's not a total shill or anything but the dude never shuts up ever and [Developer] doesn't want to talk about EVE all day so he spends less time in irc
[09:51] Eronarn: and on the forums, one guy posted a rant whining instead of actually being productive which will probably also be seen as excess negativity
[09:52] Eronarn: things like that make devs want to spend less time circlejerking with players and so they just don't hang out in irc as much
[09:52] marauder841@yahoo.com: What was the whining rant about?
[09:52] Eronarn: about how they should be giving us more information and so on
[09:52] Eronarn: i don't think they realize that ccp doesn't do that kind of design document or anything and even if they did we wouldn't see it
[09:53] Eronarn: we have to wait for announcements of intent in devblogs mostly, there's no official list of what's coming
[09:53] marauder841@yahoo.com: How many non-[Developer's Name] devs hang out in this irc?
[09:53] Eronarn: five? six?
[09:54] Eronarn: it's pretty quiet, it's [Developer's] and not an official thing
[09:54] Eronarn: so it's not like every dev is in there
[10:00] marauder841@yahoo.com: How long has this plave been drying up? Was this within the last couple of days?
[10:00] marauder841@yahoo.com: Also... 5-6 devs, how many players in the channel?
[10:00] Eronarn: ever since that new guy showed up, gradually. like a few weeks to a month
[10:00] Eronarn: and hmm maybe like 8 tops?
[10:01] Eronarn: and that's including the ones who come in intermittently only
[10:36] marauder841@yahoo.com: [Link to http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?p=10145#post10145, the initial thread about Raekhan]
[10:36] marauder841@yahoo.com: lawl
[10:46] Eronarn: haha holy shit
[10:46] Eronarn: i was in irc when that happened
[10:46] Eronarn: a CCP guy came into IRC and yelled at him
[10:47] Eronarn: in like a minute
[10:47] marauder841@yahoo.com: Do you have logs?
[10:48] Eronarn: nah i don't log IRC, CCP guy's name was Admiral_Chamrajnar or something
[10:48] marauder841@yahoo.com: I'm sure those would be most fascinating
[10:48] marauder841@yahoo.com: Are you serious?
[10:48] marauder841@yahoo.com: THAT faggot?
[10:48] Eronarn: he's the one that announced the titan victory, right
[10:48] Eronarn: i recognized his name from somewhere, anyways
[10:49] marauder841@yahoo.com: Yeah, both titan victory local circlejerks
[10:49] Eronarn: yeah, well he came into Aurora IRC SUPER FAST after it happened
[10:49] Eronarn: and yelled at raekhan
[10:50] Eronarn: then told him to PM him then a bit later raekhan logged off
[10:50] Eronarn: and i never saw him again :iiam:
[10:50] marauder841@yahoo.com: I want those logs. I've been wanting to nail Charmrajar for a while
[10:52] Eronarn: probably not much that could even be done with him he only said a few lines
[10:52] Eronarn: i think he only came in because raekhan had been giving running comnetary of the stuff that happened in local
[10:52] Eronarn: so they wanted to do damage control there too
[10:53] marauder841@yahoo.com: I think it's time for a threadnaught
[10:54] Eronarn: About what specifically
[10:54] marauder841@yahoo.com: I enjoy a good CCP roasting
[10:54] marauder841@yahoo.com: Specifically the whole "BoB guy has Charmrajar on speeddial" thing
[10:56] Eronarn: Well unfortunately I don't have much in the way of proof that it happened the way I described, but it's not like that has stopped kug before really
[10:56] Eronarn: All of the tetrimon stuff matches up too btw, it happened before I joined but there was a huge fuss baout it
[10:57] marauder841@yahoo.com: Believe me, I cry crocodile tears whenever one of these things comes to light. My sympathy for CCP is BOUNDLESS.
[11:00] Eronarn: goddamn I am finishing reading that thing i never realized how harsh they were ono him
[11:01] marauder841@yahoo.com: Do you need to ask why a threadnaught again?
[11:01] Eronarn: Well to be fair he was acting like a cock when stuff happened
[11:01] Eronarn: He did deserve to get kicked out
[11:01] Eronarn: But they don't normally just ignore you after you get kicked out like that
[11:01] marauder841@yahoo.com: What did he do to get kicked out?
[11:02] Eronarn: The part where he told the BoB guy that no, he wasn't going to leave, generally arguign with them
[11:02] Eronarn: Also to clarify this point:
[11:02] Eronarn: ISD IRC acounts have a lot of symbols in their usernames. They signify time-in-service, department membership, and other things, but after 40 seconds, a BRAND NEW userID appeared, bereft of any such demarcations or designations...an illegal and brand new ID...
[11:03] Eronarn: his name in irc was [IC]Raekhar, others would be [STAR] or [EA] or [SEP] or whatever
[11:03] Eronarn: some people don't have a tag, for if they are important in ISD or CCP
[11:03] Eronarn: leads and above (leads < captains < VA < admiral < ccp staff )
[11:04] Eronarn: so basically it was someone from CCP coming in with an already authed/etc. nick to get into the channel
[11:05] marauder841@yahoo.com: Do you know much about Charmrajar? Can you find out who he is/what he does in CCP?
[11:05] Eronarn: he's QA
[11:05] Eronarn: pretty sure, anyways
[11:05] Eronarn: Mostly hanging around the ISD chatroom = GMs, a handful of devs
[11:05] Eronarn: Some CCP staff and volunteer coordinators and such
[11:05] Eronarn: And one IA guy who comes in sometimes
[11:06] marauder841@yahoo.com: Why would a QA guy be able to boss around ISD
[11:07] Eronarn: Quality assurance is pretty high ranking iirc


[13:57] marauder841@yahoo.com: Considering that I confirmed the scandal from my own corrupt ISD contacts I do so enjoy the irony of using a CCP corruption scandal to my own political ends
[13:57] marauder841@yahoo.com: Because really, if I had the devs in my pocket I'd do the same shit
[14:01] Eronarn: nobody in a major alliance would do anything but
[14:01] Eronarn: see: [Alliance] guy that leaves his alliance to become a dev instead of continuing to lead it from the shadows using dev knowledge
[14:01] Eronarn: there's a reason nobody knows who they are
[14:02] marauder841@yahoo.com: So what do you think CCP will do when I unleash 7000 raging goons (most of whom don't even play anymore) on their forums about this one, then call my contacts in the gaming press (much like I did before) and dump a flaming pile of shit in their lap?
[14:06] Eronarn: Well if everything does prove true: public apology, closing of ISD to prevent future leaks, firing or shifting around IA people for failure to get their shit together, hiring new staff for forum moderation, cutting back on EVEO services offered immensely to not have to pay as much money for that, far less community interaction with devs/etc. - or if they are dumb, they might try and compensate by doing a lot more than today, but with the other parts still in effect
[14:06] Eronarn: Possibly some action against [Alliance] itself, specifically stuff like the [Actions of Alliance]
[14:07] Eronarn: Of course they won't lash out against the players, they'll put all blame on their own staff/volunteers
[14:08] marauder841@yahoo.com: Nothing on [Chat] about this yet? Kugu is reaching past 150 active viewers again, that's closing in on t20 scandal levels already
[14:08] Eronarn: Told [Person] about it but we're just talking via PMs
[14:09] marauder841@yahoo.com: What do you think I should do? Right now I figure we should let the scandal simmer for a few more hours
[14:09] marauder841@yahoo.com: Let people get stressed out about it
[14:12] Eronarn: Anonymous ISD tipline posted on kug's site to encourage other ISD people to come through with corruption stories (with some kind of authentication to ensure the truth of it that would only be known by someone in ISD)
[14:12] Eronarn: Whore the hell out of it everywhere eve-related you can, have that be a banner on it
[14:13] Eronarn: a banner on kugutsumen's site that is, and then link his site everywhere
[14:14] marauder841@yahoo.com: Now that's a wild idea
[14:14] Eronarn: It'd work, the numbers of Aurora at least shrunk by a lot
[14:14] Eronarn: And that wasn't all people leaving because they didn't have time
[14:14] Eronarn: I know at least one guy that got all bitter and either left or was kicked
[14:20] marauder841@yahoo.com: What're the [People] saying?
[14:21] marauder841@yahoo.com: I'm also curious if they know yet that I'm considering a threadnaught.
[Here, several lines are cut out to protect the likenesses and identities of my friends in Aurora, because they have played zero part in all of this and do not deserve to have suspicion cast upon them by the public.]
[14:30] marauder841@yahoo.com: Oh gooooood.
[14:30] Eronarn: They're not really a representative sample though, Aurora at least is like 50% clueless empire pubbies from roleplaying corps, 25% real 0.0 corps, 25% people that I am not sure even play EVE
[14:31] Eronarn: I know of people in [Alliance 1], [Alliance 2], [Alliance 3], [Alliance 4], etc. pretty much anyone you'd recognize the initials of
[14:31] Eronarn: Except for [Alliance 5], oddly enough
[14:31] Eronarn: If they're there they're quiet about it
[Several lines here are cut out because they are about Aurora internal workings and aren't really relevant to the discussion.]
[14:48] Eronarn: Now one resource that could work is that tipline thing I mentioned because you could find somenoe who doesn't much care
[14:48] Eronarn: Or, you could talk to Raerkrhrawhatever himself
[14:51] marauder841@yahoo.com: Tipline is pretty cool. But if I have it link to my email ccp might try to ban me
[14:51] marauder841@yahoo.com: I could set up 'isd confessions@gmail.com' or something
[14:51] Eronarn: They'll find it out from someone eventually, you should really have contingency accounts just in case
[14:52] marauder841@yahoo.com: Doesn't much matter, I'm in the best position to avoid retaliation from ccp because I simply do not play


[11:15] Eronarn: i'm nearly 100% sure [Alliance] campaign to get you banned from EVE
[11:16] marauder841@yahoo.com: I can't say I'm surprised
[11:16] marauder841@yahoo.com: Tell me about it.
[11:16] Eronarn: One of them was bugging me asking really specific questions about 'if Mittani had said something about ruining the game for people'
[11:17] marauder841@yahoo.com: Actually this is an old thing with them and other people, I've heard the "if you're trying to ruin the game you're in EULA violation" argument before
[11:17] marauder841@yahoo.com: Who would 'one of them' be?
[11:17] marauder841@yahoo.com: mook level or higher level?
[11:17] Eronarn: A guy who is in [Alliance] or [Alliance], not sure at what level he's at
[11:18] marauder841@yahoo.com: Asked on an ISD char or on a player char?
[11:18] Eronarn: ISD char. That's why I don't know what rank he's at
[11:18] Eronarn: I think he is decently ranked tho
[11:18] Eronarn: He's at least an FC
[11:18] marauder841@yahoo.com: They tried to do this with Rem too
[11:18] marauder841@yahoo.com: Thankfully in EVE "being a griefer" and "Griefing people out of the game" won't result in a ban
[11:18] marauder841@yahoo.com: Also comedy if they did ban me.... so what? :P
[11:19] marauder841@yahoo.com: I never actually play. And I'd get Angry. ^_^
[11:19] Eronarn: Well that is why he wants to know if you've said statements against CCP/EVE, because that is evidence of breaking the EULA (there's that really pointlessly vague clause and all that)
[11:20] marauder841@yahoo.com: Means I've got them right pissed off
[11:21] Eronarn: It may actually be a decent idea to bait them into doing it
[11:21] marauder841@yahoo.com: I'd rather not lose my accounts just in case
[11:21] marauder841@yahoo.com: on the off chance I end up playing
[11:21] marauder841@yahoo.com: however... I think it's time to kick it up a notch
[11:22] marauder841@yahoo.com: I'm going to require all eve-o posters to include a quote of their choice (from a limited selection) from Dianabolic in their sigs.
[11:23] Eronarn: this is a funny idea but CRC will probably snip them for 'spamming'
[11:24] marauder841@yahoo.com: Does that matter really?
[11:24] marauder841@yahoo.com: It's imply heavy handed censorship that'll just piss people off more
[11:24] marauder841@yahoo.com: then you follow up with sigs quoting Arkonon saying they won't censor people ;p
[Discussion on the characteristics of these signatures – cut down for length, as it is not directly relevant]
[11:40] marauder841@yahoo.com: Thoughts/advice on how to deflect a [Alliance] to get me banned?
[11:41] Eronarn: Don't ever mention in-game wanting to destroy CCP/any CCP game/etc.
[11:41] Eronarn: I don't think they will use offsite referneces
[11:48] marauder841@yahoo.com: that's easy
[11:48] marauder841@yahoo.com: since I never log in
[11:50] Eronarn: Yeah it will be tough if they do want to pursue it, really

   Even a quick glance over these chatlogs – which are incomplete due to my aforementioned missing chatlogs and do not even draw upon chatlogs with other directors – will show how eager The Mittani was to do harm to CCP in any way possible regardless of whether it was founded in reality or not. He is a duplicitous person who misled an entire alliance for his own hateful agenda and attempted to cause as much havoc as possible based on admittedly false premises. As stated earlier I will not cite specific incidents in the above chatlogs that prove this, instead leaving it up to the reader's interpretation, since there are too many to address in any reasonable way. I think, however, that it should be quite clear to even a casual reader that his trumped-up accusations actually still managed to be less offensive than actions he himself engaged in willingly and, in fact, eagerly.

   While I did not include all of my chatlogs anyways, the ones that I did include ended abruptly and the last quote that I include was from the last time I talked to The Mittani. He resigned shortly thereafter when CCP's response to the threadnought came, and we have not talked since his departure. As soon as he realized that his campaign had failed among anyone not Goonswarm and that he had even received negative reactions to his behavior on the Goonswarm forums he gave up CEO and quit EVE, ridding it of a man who wished to do nothing more than destroy the world of EVE for his own enjoyment regardless of the cost to the very organization that put him into power.

   Unfortunately, neither his choice of embracing corruption nor his insane polarization of the goon community left with him, as interactions with the current Goonswarm CEO and directors have shown. The same problems that The Mittani caused initially persist to this day and are killing Goonswarm from the inside. In my opening paragraph I stated that this letter was not being written for the benefit of CCP.  It's not being done for my own benefit, either, and I actually expect this to cause me some degree of problems despite no longer playing EVE. Instead, this letter exists for the benefit of Goonswarm, and other SA Goon guilds that might follow in its footsteps one day. To come clear with what really went on during the artificially manufactured scandal is in my opinion necessary for the health of Goonswarm because with knowledge that they have been lied to perhaps goons can grow past the bad decisions of the past and look back upon their blindly supportive behavior of a power-mad tyrant with as much shame as a goon can feel (admittedly, not much). While I am not a part of it any more, I do wish the best for Goonswarm, and part of that is returning to its roots – this is not possible while lies are still the order of the day. The kind of behavior exhibited by The Mittani is simply not acceptable.

   I am certain that this letter will find its way to the general EVE public. If you are not a goon, I would remind you that they like most people are easily misled and unfortunately it takes something as brutally honest as this letter to make them think for long enough to realize the truth. A very, very small fraction (on the order of 1/1000) knew the extent of Goonswarm's corruption. I ask you not to take action against the innocent majority immediately, as I wish to avoid harm to Goonswarm itself as a result of this information. In the past it has been stated that Goonswarm is a cancer upon EVE, and in many respects goons have been a bad thing for the game's political landscape. Regardless of whether one likes goons or not, however, they are in a sorry state right now compared to their origins and have been for the past several months. The T1 frigate Goonfleet struggling in an inhospitable world is gone and what has replaced it is something that nobody should approve of. Clearly, there must be some accountability for what has happened, and I accept my own punishment and whatever else may come knowing that I did what I did for a good reason. Now, Goonswarm must go through the same process to come to terms with the actions of its leaders, and I again ask that you give them the chance to instead of jumping on a bandwagon against a mostly-innocent group of players. It will be hard for most goons to admit that they have been wrong this entire time, but necessary if they are ever to return to their roots. I doubt that the current Goonswarm leadership will be able to do this, but it is necessary to give them the time to try. While they will probably insist on refusing to accept and then apologize for what their predecessors (or they themselves, as members of the current administration were involved with this) did, perhaps the average goon will force them to provide an explanation. Perhaps nothing will change, and at that point, purging Goonswarm would be perfectly justified – but until such time as no change has occurred despite ample chance for such being provided I ask that this release of information be seen as a warning of what power in the wrong hands can do to an organization, rather than being taken as a statement of what Goonswarm is doing currently or a call to arms against them.

   It's been one hell of a first year in EVE and I've done a lot of things, good and bad, for both the game and my alliance. As soon as the fallout from this letter settles, though, it's over – and I hope with it comes the end of the era of scandals. EVE deserves better than that, CCP does too, and so does Goonswarm win or lose the war vs. BoB. The outcome doesn't even matter – what does is that all parties involved have fun doing it. I just hope everyone else can remember back to when you could have fun without looking for a way to break the rules of the game to do it. Enough out of me, though – my story's over. Now, it's up to you, the reader, to make something out of it.
   
Eronarn Palazzo
or   
Fagonarn Roleplayazzo
or   
“P.E.”
or    
[EA]Hoorj



Questions? Comments? Suggestions?

AIM: Eronarn         
MSN: eronarn@hotmail.com   
Email: eronarn@gmail.com   


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Trippy on June 14, 2007, 08:38:23 AM
Can somebody summarize what the above means?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 14, 2007, 08:52:37 AM
A player who was in a CCP organisation to organise RP events and similar who had access to CCP information was a goonspy.  He doesn't like the old goonswarm CEO Mittani and this is an attack on his character.  The point I think he misses is that by feeding confidential CCP information to goonswarm, he is part of the problem and just reinforces the belief that CCP organisations are riddled with players with an agenda.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 14, 2007, 08:58:04 AM
Can somebody summarize what the above means?

Pretty much everything Goonswarm said about the recent ISD scandal was true, and idiot_ISD_member thinks that his belated mudslinging is going to help CCP instead of, say, reopening old wounds and rubbing salt in them. BoB/MC are already in full-on "This doesn't mean anything" mode about this new log, btw, in case you were wondering.

Also: Mittens had ISD people 'working' for him in much the same way as BoB does. If you can't beat them, join 'em. :D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: 5150 on June 14, 2007, 09:07:37 AM
Can somebody summarize what the above means?


Goon = bad guys who were out to destroy Eve & CCP's credibility


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yoru on June 14, 2007, 09:18:02 AM
My reading of it goes like this.

* Mittani saw CCP as another entity to infiltrate/use for his agenda.
* Mittani enjoyed giving CCP a hard time, publicly, and his scandal releases were likely carefully worded to be misleading if not outright false, in order to use Internet Nerd Fury to achieve his own ends.
* Precisely what those ends are isn't clear in the chatlogs; it may be just to wank over how much "power" he has, may be to harm CCP.
* ISD volunteer decides to "come clean" and hope this will help the game, basically confesses that ISD is riddled with spies and independently confirms a portion of the Memorial Day scandal (i.e. some CCP dev popped into ISD chat and yelled at people)
* Not much else?

There's a lot of chest-puffing bullshit going on in the non-log portions where he claims that he's exposing some deep secret agenda and you need to trust him.

What it does illustrate successfully is two things:
* Mittani was a giant douche who uses dev-side spies and informers just like he accuses BoB of doing.
* ISD probably is compromised top to bottom.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Morat20 on June 14, 2007, 09:24:44 AM
* ISD probably is compromised top to bottom.
I thought everyone more or less knew that PRIOR to any of this. I mean, did everyone honestly think all the ISD folks were totally 100% independent folks with no ties to anyone, ever?

ISD should have been reworked as soon as EVE start pushing 50k. A lot of ISD stuff needs to be done by paid staff, not volunteers. Back when EVE was a shoestring operation, ISD made sense. Now? Rework it into Newb Helpers alone.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 14, 2007, 09:30:53 AM
CCP had credibility? :|

If the new logs are true: The accusations about BoB getting a ISD rep dismissed via contacts inside CCP are true, as is the fact that ISD & CCP are riddled with people jockeying for any in-game advantage; and the only new part is that Mittani spun it to his optimum advantage. If CCP tries to use it as proof about how Mittani wanted to destroy EVE, then they'll have people asking why CCP claimed that the MSN thing didn't matter for BoB, but it's of game-breaking importance now.

If the new logs are false (which is a distinct possibility - the person who posted them made a thread on SGBS a while back stating that he was actually a BoB spy since the beginning, and also got banned from SA for fakeposting on a totally unrelated topic): CCP gets to have a fun weekend censoring ahead of them and they can't blame Goonswarm this time as this makes our former CEO look bad as well as CCP (and BoB, etc)...and it's all a gigantic troll.

Win-win, really. :D


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: tazelbain on June 14, 2007, 09:31:31 AM
LOL, I hope Mittani can get a goon to move to Iceland and get a job at CCP.  The drama would be hysterical when it was discovered.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 14, 2007, 09:32:32 AM
* Mittani enjoyed giving CCP a hard time, publicly, and his scandal releases were likely carefully worded to be misleading if not outright false, in order to use Internet Nerd Fury to achieve his own ends.

The only scandal to come direct from goonswarm was the dev joining darkstar1, that was a fuck up because they said a petition was deleted when it looks like it wasn't.  Mittani made no secret of hating CCP but I don't have any reason to believe the ISD and MSN scandals were outright false, the source was K using the ISD reporter's own words, he responded on /. and people knew him.  Msn was confirmed by BoB and this log confirms the ISD thing so I'll agree he got all the goons up in arms for his own reasons but I think it's stretching it to say he made anything up.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 14, 2007, 09:39:03 AM
If the new logs are false (which is a distinct possibility - the person who posted them made a thread on SGBS a while back stating that he was actually a BoB spy since the beginning, and also got banned from SA for fakeposting on a totally unrelated topic): CCP gets to have a fun weekend censoring ahead of them and they can't blame Goonswarm this time as this makes our former CEO look bad as well as CCP (and BoB, etc)...and it's all a gigantic troll.

Win-win, really. :D

Yeah you never know with Mittani, he might have organised an attack on himself just to prove ISD is totally corrupt.  I think it's unlikely as it only takes Eronarn to appear and say it's crap to undo it all.

Edit or I guess CCP could state Eronarn wasn't in ISD.  It's a bit wordy for a troll though.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Miasma on June 14, 2007, 09:47:31 AM
This Mittani guy sounds like he'd be a great corporate or divorce lawyer, what area is he going into?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 14, 2007, 10:01:03 AM
Yeah you never know with Mittani, he might have organised an attack on himself just to prove ISD is totally corrupt.  I think it's unlikely as it only takes Eronarn to appear and say it's crap to undo it all.

Edit or I guess CCP could state Eronarn wasn't in ISD.  It's a bit wordy for a troll though.
You're assuming that Eronarn isn't just an alt of the Mittani, of course.  :evil:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Engels on June 14, 2007, 10:06:35 AM
He smells of Broughden.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 14, 2007, 10:09:01 AM
You're assuming that Eronarn isn't just an alt of the Mittani, of course.  :evil:

After playing eve I assume everyone is an alt of the Mittani.   Eronarn either was in ISD or he wasn't, it should be easy enough to check.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Sparky on June 14, 2007, 10:39:17 AM
Pretty much everything Goonswarm said about the recent ISD scandal was true

Quote
(4:34:23 PM) [Goon]: the directorate knows that there's no scandal right
(4:34:31 PM) [Goon Director]: yeah
(4:34:33 PM) [Goon]: k
(4:34:45 PM) [Goon Director]: mittani is right though, it's a good rumor

More like threadnaught shit was known to be bullshit or at least on shaky foundations but Mittani who doesn't play Eve anyway and had little to lose whipped up the goons into a frenzy to fuel his metagame fantasy about bankrupting CCP.

Also:

Quote
[09:49] marauder841@yahoo.com: How much contact are you having with the devs club lately?
[09:49] marauder841@yahoo.com: Also, how many of them are usefully homosexual, to be completely venal and blunt?

tl;dr Goons leadership wanted to cheat like BoB, failed badly then got all indignant about it.

I say this as a goon.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 14, 2007, 10:48:23 AM
Quote
[10:46] Eronarn: haha holy shit
[10:46] Eronarn: i was in irc when that happened
[10:46] Eronarn: a CCP guy came into IRC and yelled at him
[10:47] Eronarn: in like a minute
[10:47] marauder841@yahoo.com: Do you have logs?
[10:48] Eronarn: nah i don't log IRC, CCP guy's name was Admiral_Chamrajnar or something
[10:48] marauder841@yahoo.com: I'm sure those would be most fascinating
[10:48] marauder841@yahoo.com: Are you serious?
[10:48] marauder841@yahoo.com: THAT faggot?
[10:48] Eronarn: he's the one that announced the titan victory, right
[10:48] Eronarn: i recognized his name from somewhere, anyways
[10:49] marauder841@yahoo.com: Yeah, both titan victory local circlejerks
[10:49] Eronarn: yeah, well he came into Aurora IRC SUPER FAST after it happened
[10:49] Eronarn: and yelled at raekhan
[10:50] Eronarn: then told him to PM him then a bit later raekhan logged off
[10:50] Eronarn: and i never saw him again :iiam:
[10:50] marauder841@yahoo.com: I want those logs.
That, to me, says that BoB did have Admiral Cham-whatsit on MSN, and that they did use him to get the ISD bloke dismissed in double-quick time.

So that part of the Open Letter allegations were true, at least (assuming the log is real, yadda yadda).

Of course, that's also why CCP shouldn't use this to beat us over the head - if the logs are true, that means BoB got an ISD volunteer fired, and CCP lied about it to cover it up. :)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 14, 2007, 10:53:05 AM
You could be correct. This does not however take away from the 'Goons' appearing as bad, if not worse, due to this latest leak. Oh i do so love the handwringing.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 14, 2007, 10:54:26 AM
Quote
[09:49] marauder841@yahoo.com: How much contact are you having with the devs club lately?
[09:49] marauder841@yahoo.com: Also, how many of them are usefully homosexual, to be completely venal and blunt?

tl;dr Goons leadership wanted to cheat like BoB, failed badly then got all indignant about it.

I say this as a goon.


Goons leadership wanted to use their openly homosexual spy to use sexual favours to cheat like BoB, failed badly then got all indignant about it.

Fixed.

I say this as a goon.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 14, 2007, 10:54:59 AM
They seriously need to nuke the whole volunteer program at this point.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 14, 2007, 10:57:07 AM
Orbit, takeoff, etc...

Seriously though, whoever suggested a server hard-reset earlier in this thread had it right. At this point it's probably the only thing which will clean this mess up.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 14, 2007, 10:57:25 AM
You could be correct. This does not however take away from the 'Goons' appearing as bad, if not worse, due to this latest leak. Oh i do so love the handwringing.
The Mittani no longer plays EVE, or has anything to do with Goonfleet.

And if you believe that, I have some prime asteroid mining rights in Jita to sell you.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 14, 2007, 11:10:18 AM
You could be correct. This does not however take away from the 'Goons' appearing as bad, if not worse, due to this latest leak. Oh i do so love the handwringing.
The Mittani no longer plays EVE, or has anything to do with Goonfleet.

And if you believe that, I have some prime asteroid mining rights in Jita to sell you.

Well now that you mention that, i am playing EvE again and spend most(all) of my time mining. The intricacies involved in the fight between two groups of etards competing to see who can reach the no.1 loser prize before the competition snakes it away does not particularly concern me.

Having said that though, i must admit this constant seesawing has left me totering on the edge of my seat, my moral compass spinning wildly like a dog on a kitchen floor paved with slippery marble, able to smell Skooby Snacks somewhere but unable to move in any coherent fashion in a direction which would deliver the desired goal of the aforementioned doggy treat.








So, how much for the 'roids?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Shavnir on June 14, 2007, 11:24:53 AM
So, how much for the 'roids?

Free, just hope you enjoy standing up a lot.

Was Mittani the one that got banned from SA for threatening to sue over the "I am a professional voice actor!" thing?  Even the WoW goons look down on the Eve goons.

Although the drama it starts is a huge margin more interesting than the game itself.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Montague on June 14, 2007, 11:26:54 AM
Quote
Goons leadership wanted to use their openly homosexual spy to use sexual favours to cheat like BoB, failed badly then got all indignant about it.

Fixed.

I say this as a goon.

 :popcorn: :thumbs_up:

A+ thread, would read again!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yoru on June 14, 2007, 11:29:13 AM
So, how much for the 'roids?

Free, just hope you enjoy standing up a lot.

Was Mittani the one that got banned from SA for threatening to sue over the "I am a professional voice actor!" thing?  Even the WoW goons look down on the Eve goons.

Although the drama it starts is a huge margin more interesting than the game itself.

Nah, that was Mawg Spawn. He reads books over teamspeak. Obviously not someone to be messed with.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 14, 2007, 11:34:44 AM
Yesssssss, page 23.

ONWARDS, TO VICTORY1!!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: LK on June 14, 2007, 11:52:55 AM
So, so glad I unsubscribed and got away from this.  This is like a daytime soap opera.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: cmlancas on June 14, 2007, 12:01:23 PM
I think I wouldn't enjoy it so much if I had time invested in this game.


But because I don't, it's a hell of a lot more engaging than watching television. This is unbelievably good drama, simply because in the BoB/Goon/CCP triangle they all are fucking themselves.

Hilarious.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: NiX on June 14, 2007, 01:38:27 PM
Has something new come out of this? I want new drama! Someone make up a rumor to fuel the fire again.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Sparky on June 14, 2007, 01:41:06 PM
Has something new come out of this? I want new drama! Someone make up a rumor to fuel the fire again.

C'mon man, if gay ewhoring for spaceship lulz doesn't keep your drama hunger satiated for at least a few pages I'm not sure how much more we can do.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 14, 2007, 01:41:53 PM
My suspicions about those logs revolve mainly around how well-ordered they are.  If two people talk on IM, then they tend to speak across each other: one asks a question while the other is still typing an answer, and you get conversations that are hard to read because they are slightly out-of-order as a result.

That reads like voice dialogue.  I think it's faked.  And I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it's Mittens' doing.  It claims to slag him off, after all, but only a mong would think that anyone but CCP and ISD come out of it actually damaged.  If anyting, Mittens looks like scheming, evil cold-war-bunker guy again, which is always fun.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Megrim on June 14, 2007, 02:03:17 PM
My suspicions about those logs revolve mainly around how well-ordered they are.  If two people talk on IM, then they tend to speak across each other: one asks a question while the other is still typing an answer, and you get conversations that are hard to read because they are slightly out-of-order as a result.

That reads like voice dialogue.  I think it's faked.  And I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it's Mittens' doing.  It claims to slag him off, after all, but only a mong would think that anyone but CCP and ISD come out of it actually damaged.  If anyting, Mittens looks like scheming, evil cold-war-bunker guy again, which is always fun.

Just out of curiosity, how old is that Mittanni guy?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 14, 2007, 02:11:06 PM
Has something new come out of this? I want new drama! Someone make up a rumor to fuel the fire again.
There isn't really anyone who can capitalize on the latest part - both BoB & CCP have their hands tied by the fact that it confirms the "dev hotline" thing, and Goonswarm is busy having fun in SGBS with it.

(Plus it's probably fake anyway)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 14, 2007, 02:50:11 PM
You see? This is what happens when you let outsiders into your magic circle!


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: cmlancas on June 14, 2007, 05:13:06 PM
Goons are just mad that they didn't get invited to Fraggle Rock.

Sorry.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 14, 2007, 05:47:54 PM
My suspicions about those logs revolve mainly around how well-ordered they are.  If two people talk on IM, then they tend to speak across each other: one asks a question while the other is still typing an answer, and you get conversations that are hard to read because they are slightly out-of-order as a result.

That reads like voice dialogue.  I think it's faked.  And I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it's Mittens' doing.  It claims to slag him off, after all, but only a mong would think that anyone but CCP and ISD come out of it actually damaged.  If anyting, Mittens looks like scheming, evil cold-war-bunker guy again, which is always fun.

It's not faked, Eronarn is real or has cover story that would outsmart 007.

NOT SAFE FOR WORK LINK FOLLOWS.

THIS IS THE NOT SAFE FOR WORK -> LINK (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:rIUftC7WO6gJ:bondage.com/p/5/personals/United%2520States/Connecticut+eronarn+connecticut&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: cmlancas on June 14, 2007, 06:00:21 PM
Ogle. Whips and chains? This is amazing. It just adds angle after angle.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: SansWetware on June 14, 2007, 06:14:21 PM
My suspicions about those logs revolve mainly around how well-ordered they are.  If two people talk on IM, then they tend to speak across each other: one asks a question while the other is still typing an answer, and you get conversations that are hard to read because they are slightly out-of-order as a result.

That reads like voice dialogue.  I think it's faked.  And I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it's Mittens' doing.  It claims to slag him off, after all, but only a mong would think that anyone but CCP and ISD come out of it actually damaged.  If anyting, Mittens looks like scheming, evil cold-war-bunker guy again, which is always fun.

Just out of curiosity, how old is that Mittanni guy?

Late twenties----->early thirties.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: UnSub on June 14, 2007, 11:42:10 PM
It just keeps getting better and better. :-)

Since we are right off into daytime soap land, here's hoping the next discovery is that the EVE server is actually Hitler's brain, powered by Norwegian orphans tied to a Conan-esque Wheel of Pain. My lack of surprise would only be outstripped by my delight at such drama escalation.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: gimpyone on June 15, 2007, 01:35:43 AM
What is SGBS?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Righ on June 15, 2007, 02:01:21 AM
Bulldog syndrome. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson-Golabi-Behmel_syndrome)


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 15, 2007, 04:02:34 AM
My suspicions about those logs revolve mainly around how well-ordered they are.  If two people talk on IM, then they tend to speak across each other: one asks a question while the other is still typing an answer, and you get conversations that are hard to read because they are slightly out-of-order as a result.

That reads like voice dialogue.  I think it's faked.  And I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it's Mittens' doing.  It claims to slag him off, after all, but only a mong would think that anyone but CCP and ISD come out of it actually damaged.  If anyting, Mittens looks like scheming, evil cold-war-bunker guy again, which is always fun.

It's not faked, Eronarn is real or has cover story that would outsmart 007.

NOT SAFE FOR WORK LINK FOLLOWS.

THIS IS THE NOT SAFE FOR WORK -> LINK (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:rIUftC7WO6gJ:bondage.com/p/5/personals/United%2520States/Connecticut+eronarn+connecticut&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us).

I wasn't really saying that Eronarn was an alt of Mittani.  What I mean is that the dialogue looks odd.  Maybe someone just "cleaned it up a bit" by changing the order.  Maybe Herr Spymaster-in-exile wrote it up or doctored it and asked Eronarn to post it.  Maybe Eronarn did it himself, based on some real discussion.

Certainly, it shows me nothing new about Mittani, but makes CCP/ISD/Aurora look even more riddled with corruption.  It certainly looks bad on the original accusation re the Admiral Chanchenchunjiggerer stuff.  If the Mittani had still been in charge, and had that available, I don't see why he wouldn't release it at some point.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 15, 2007, 04:24:57 AM
And maybe Eronarn made it all up - as mentioned previously this is, after all, the person who span a thousand-word novella about how he was secretly working for BoB all along...purely to troll Space GBS.



Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Yoru on June 15, 2007, 08:43:06 AM
What is SGBS?

Space General Bullshit, the Goonfleet main forum.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 15, 2007, 09:53:20 AM
The whole thing has been utterly forgotten on SGBS (no doubt not entirely coincidental) by the return of a (well verified) GIA agent in from the cold, complete with delicious stories of Bob's internal workings and state.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 15, 2007, 12:04:05 PM
And maybe Eronarn made it all up - as mentioned previously this is, after all, the person who span a thousand-word novella about how he was secretly working for BoB all along...purely to troll Space GBS.

I could list a dozen reasons why it's true, including a high member of BoB who confirms part of it and a couple of goon directors who confirm other parts.  But the fact is, nobody really cares anymore that ISD is corrupt, Eronarn probably was a BoB spy as well as a goonspy, he's already on record as swinging both ways, but again nobody cares that much.  I just thought it was funny that someone would go to that much effort to attack the Mittani while missing the point that everyone knew how he felt anyway.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Comstar on June 15, 2007, 12:30:57 PM
The return of a (well verified) GIA agent in from the cold, complete with delicious stories of Bob's internal workings and state.

Please link or copy and paste?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: neep on June 15, 2007, 05:02:59 PM
This is the original post, take it for what its worth...

---snip--

Hi everyone! Lets be honest, you all know Mittani has eyes and ears everywhere, and today I'd like to let you know just how the campaign against BoB is going from the inside. Obviously this'll be sparse on details, I don't want them to know just where I am and who I am.

Mittani asked me to talk about 'what it's like in BoB' and how they feel about our current tactics, and how they feel about us, so:

What it's like to be in BoB

Boring, fucking boring. Everyone in BoB barely plays the game, they don't rat and they certainly don't mine, they simply log in and use their stockpiled resources to take part in gangs and kill as many people as they can. Like many other alliances it's all about the k:d ratio and simple losses can devastate the morale of some players as they simple cannot comprehend losing. I've seen the loss of a HAC make someone quit for over a week.

Generally life in bob consists of monitoring IRC for notices that alert you to some kind of action, once you start beeping it up, you log in and hopefully kill whatever is annoying the directors, then generally you get bored and log out again, this is the reason their roaming gangs are so brief at camping, they mostly lack the attention span to stick it out.

What I'm trying to get across is they don't play the game in any traditional sense of the word, I've seen references to cockfagging BoB specifically in Delve before and it's just pointless, it'll never achieve a damn thing, the only time you generally see movement is when they are moving from Delve to the frontlines.

How they feel about our current tactics

They don't fucking like it, not one bit. They fucking hate the fact we won't give them a fair fight. If Mittani keeps you guys from engaging them in their prime and only during your prime, they will eventually explode under their own faggotry. BoB is all about unfair hammering of their opponents, and while you can't see the results of hiding in a pos, they spend their time on IRC bitching about what faggots you are, how they hate you for not fighting, and eventually fuck off to play with their curvy kickboxing girlfriends.

Interestingly, whenever BoB lose a fleet fight they absolutely refuse to discuss it. Corp chat and IRC chat will be a fucking wasteland, it'll go from busy chat to dustballs the minute you fighterbomb the fuck out of them. This is often the time they will claim lag caused them to die and they disconnected and it wasn't their fault. You'd be surprised how often they lose connectivity when goonfleet happens to kill them.

The worst thing you can do is meet them head on, they are DESPERATE for that and every discussion about us leads to same thing, a desperate desire we'll all get in battleships and meet them head on.

How do they feel about us

Quote:
<BOldMan> i am sure. i just wish to kill them all
<BOldMan> and all their friends and families
<BOldMan> my dautgher just puke on me, damn goons
As you can imagine, they fucking hate you. They think you're a pack of upstart faggots should just have to decency to die already. Mittani is a moron and you're a bunch of isk selling RA slaves. You all slave away for your masters while RA live it up in the plexes.

They were really pleased by the serious business thread, because they thought they were going to get their fair fight, the fact you won't pisses them off and makes them hate you more. They don't understand our mentality at all, they are offended by the word 'rape', 'cockfagging' they believe means 'cloaking' and jewing baffles the shit out of them too. Keep being yourselves and don't let these faggots beat you.

How will we beat them?

If you guys can keep your cool and keep building up your capfleet you will nullify the only advantage they have, once you can field as many caps as they can they can no longer fuck us over by bringing an overwhelming force, and they risk losing them every single time they deploy them. So don't fuck it up and blow your loads early.

----snip----

and then the Mittani offers the next gem:

----snip----

here's a couple of reasons BoB hate us, let's go through them.

1. Newbies with power: Old-guard faggots think you need 30m sp before you even get to 0.0, and since all of EVE has always revolved around the older players being able to kill the newer players with impunity, an entity like Goonfleet completely flips their system and their "rightful place" on its end. They hate this.

2. Offensive culture: RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE most pubbies can't handle it. Combine 1 and 2 and you see why they see us as a 'cancer of EVE'. This is great because it's true: we're here to shit in their sandbox. I don't know why but RAPE is particularly bothersome to them.

3. Unconventional tactics: We don't fight 'their way' or the 'right way' or the 'fun way', which amounts to lining up to be blown up by their superior sp, t2 ships and capitals. Most other entities in EVE play their way except for RA and GS.

----snip----

As much love as I have for the goons carving out some space for themselves and letting new people to eve participate in their pew-pew, posts like this makes me happy I don't have to put up with their directorate (or at least the mittani's drivel).


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Reg on June 15, 2007, 05:48:04 PM
All the "rape this, rape that" makes them sound pretty juvenile. I'm moving more towards "A pox on both their houses" at this point.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on June 15, 2007, 06:30:35 PM
Neep, that's by the same guy, but much older.  This thread is new, fresh and deliciously detailed.

Comstar, I can't really post the details, although no doubt the many Bob spies on the GF forums have passed it on to them.  Loose lips and all that.  I have no doubt it'll spread out over the next few days, but there's nothing specifical that's gobsmacking, just an encouraging view of the situation of various elements of bob and the issues they face, as well as some pointers as to what they do well (and not so well), what their key approaches are and stuff like that: where they make their money, where it goes, and so on.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on June 20, 2007, 04:52:09 PM
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/8538

Quote
The recent scandal was a response from the EVE community as a whole. EVE is billed as a "sandbox", created by CCP but always with the intention of being developed by the players. Customers create characters and venture into the "box" to shape the metaphorical hills and valleys in the "sand". Whether it be through conflict or peace, destruction or production, we as the entire collection of people who play EVE wish to be in charge of our own direction.

Developer misconduct has occured in the past, a fact admitted by the company. Direct communication between players and members of CCP's volunteer team which handles forum moderation, in-game bug hunting and storyline development has occured despite the rule that members of the volunteer program should under no circumstances reveal who they are to anyone, a fact admitted by some of the players and members of the volunteer team in unison. Both instances lead to the perception that biased influence is being injected like a virus into the "sandbox" which strips away some of the freedom people log in to experience.

We all play this game to have fun, whether it be to rise to power as a space-controlling alliance, to corner a part of the player-driven market and reap the financial benefits, or simply to undock and fly off into the darkness looking for a target to point our guns toward with the expectation that no favoritism from an outside and infinitely powerful entity exists.

Resentment occurs when the assumed level playing ground begins to vanish, regardless of which side it appears to favor. The scandals existed and exist whether Goonswarm plays or not, to paint it any differently is to hypocritically deny that there has ever been a problem. While a collection of members within Goonswarm made a loud racket (primarily a knee-jerk reaction to the perception that misconduct still exists even after CCP's creation of an Internal Affairs department to stamp out such issues), the voices of hundreds and hundreds of other unaffiliated players rose up from all corners of EVE's universe to express their equally shared dissatisfaction.

EVE Online is an amazing source of entertainment with a vast market, constant conflict and heart-pounding PvP combat always at the hand of, and created by, the players, using the systems set up by the developers. The space for metagaming within the conflict between powerful groups and alliances of players with respect to internal disruption and spying is by far one of the best "features" which has come about, again due to the actions of players interacting this way within the unbiased construct of the game. Many people play the game solely for this aspect and the desire to lay waste to whatever opposition bars their way, or to stand up and fight against the well-established old powers of veteran characters.

It's not about winning or losing an intergalactic space war inside an imaginary universe on the internet, it is about feeling secure that whatever we do is the direct result of our own efforts free from the assistance or impedance of a guiding hand. To view the events that transpired as unwarranted outrage or to claim that a certain group of people behaved in a manner purely because of a conflict within a computer game is to ignore and discard the feelings and opinions of many thousands more who wish to see EVE shine in its full capacity and enjoy the ride.

- Goonswarm

Quote
The increased interest in EVE Online, not only from gamers but multilaterally – even from those who have never actually played the game – illustrates the extraordinary characteristics we believe set us apart. Just because it's a game doesn't mean that everything related to it is virtual. It's compelling, aggressive and provocative, and those core elements are not only what makes it interesting but also what can evoke real emotion from the players who delve deeply into it. They have a genuine sense of ownership within the gameworld that we want to encourage. Moving beyond the confines of the server lines to discuss in-game matters with gusto and fervor is as much a part of the game for them as hunting NPCs or building a battleship. It's that passion that inspires us as developers and makes us strive to continue to push the boundaries of what EVE is and all that it can be.

- CCP


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: gimpyone on June 20, 2007, 05:18:33 PM
I think my head spun around with that CCP spin.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: cmlancas on June 20, 2007, 06:10:27 PM
(http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum2/aaroncomess11.jpg)


CCP.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 26, 2007, 10:08:42 AM
Quote from: The Mittani
THINGS MITTANI LIED about:

God, where to start? There's like a year and a half of stuff I could go over. Time to get some stuff off my chest, it's been long enough.

Personally I think the Eronarn drama-squib is pretty funny. He'd identified a dev, was looking to move to Iceland to work for CCP, and said the dev was hitting on him on irc, So saying "go fuck him and find out what you can" didn't seem like a stretch, since bragging about his gay exploits was part and parcel of Eronarn's persona. Let's not forget this is the "I fucked Kirtaner in an anime 4-way" guy. Compared to some of the other things that went on, that was downright tame. Alas, it was not to be, as Eronarn turned out to be uselessly homosexual. When Death asked me to locate Enslaver's house in the UK such that he could have angry Russians cut the power to it and knock him offline to kill his titan, now that was wild.

And no, I never did look up Enslaver's house; shortly thereafter Dungar exposed him as a GM to AnthonyZ and got a (relatively) innocent fat kid's character nuked. Welp.

The funny thing about the "CCP is fucking us" issue is that it was a self-created problem. People from ISD or other areas would approach me and volunteer information; we never had an explicit GIA campaign to infiltrate CCP, though when we DID get a leak we'd wring it for all it was worth. And every time we'd get a volunteer out of the blue, it'd be more apparent that other alliances have similar volunteers. Or we'd find stuff on other people's boards about contacts with CCP, and it just built up over a year and a half. If we'd never looked behind that curtain we'd never have found abuse and corruption, and I probably wouldn't have reached the spectacular levels of bitterness and loathing that I did at the end. Oops!

We (me and the directorate) never thought that there was a 'conspiracy' within CCP to keep us down, but 10-ish devs or GMs or QA guys all working independently from each other within the company with BoB's interests at heart. Even the most innocent of the exposed GMs, Enslaver, was found dropping strong hints about the changes to the t2 market, and what bpos to buy and sell in relation to upcoming game adjustments; that one bit of knowledge had a market effect of billions in-game. When you start throwing in more high-level employees the level of "harmless leaks" really gets to the point that you throw up your hands and say fuck it. Oh sure, you'd hear us bitching about 'CCP is fucking us', or 'Fuck CCP', but some people take this to mean that we were expecting a smoke-filled boardroom with Oveur and Magnus chewing on cigars mulling over ways to fuck us. This was not the case. However, it only takes one Enslaver or Admiral Charmafaggot to break a game, much less a ton of Aurora, its head, T20, etc etc etc.

Not that we were white knights. It was just that there was a hidden arms race in the game, and apparently BoB was way fucking ahead of us, and had been since the game came out.

Hypocrisy: Jesus, the level of doubletalk and inconsistency would make your eyes bleed if you cared about that sort of thing. Some directors did, some didn't. Most of GS's leadership has held something of a fortress mentality, particularly among the longer-serving directors; much like Taiwan under the gun of China, survival was all that came to matter, and principle be damned. Most of the universe has been trying to stomp out GS for so long that we couldn't afford to 'fight with honor' or 'avoid metagaming'; lacking skillpoints, isk, capitals, we had to turn to ruthless metagaming and open hypocrisy to buy GS time to survive.

When I'd say something like "These guys are awful people, hate them" when in reality they're nerds just like us, I knew it was a line of bullshit. But if it made people angry and fired them up enough to log in and push the other guy's shit in, so be it. At the end of the war they could always be 'rehabilitated' like D2 was. "Oh, those guys weren't so bad, cute pubbies, we like them now!" Yeah. Using xenophobia, emphasizing the dichotomy between 'pubbie' and 'goon' (congrats, you paid 10bux, you have a 'unique culture', now go kill those other guys), pointing out how we'd been persecuted as a group... all of that appeared to help form a strong GS identity that was lacking in other goon corps. Nothing helps form an identity like a little persecution and nemesis, after all. In hindsight you can step back and wag your finger, saying that such Nixonian antics helped nothing, but who knows for sure.

People would ask, "What is the difference between GS and BoB really" and about the only thing I could point to, as far as tactics and methods go, is that we were very aware about our hypocrisy, while they seem completely blind to it. Everyone's a bastard, some just admit it. Or maybe they aren't bastards, and they end up like FIX, praying to Jesus and wondering why they keep losing.

Ultimately, the best thing that ever happened to GS as a matter of cohesion was BoB. They cemented the ingroup vs outgroup feelings, they persecuted us as a matter of identity ("goons have no souls", etc) and provided external validation for the goon/pubbie dichotomy that previously had only been puffed up within GS. One of the reasons I think that Goonfleet seems so odd to the average SA poster is that "goon identity" is taken very seriously compared to that of a non-goonfleet forumgoer. When you hate your enemy, you're much more likely to ignore losses and wake up wanting to push their shit in, and who could avoid hating DBP?

Most people saw through the propaganda as just that, but enjoyed it nonetheless. A few people bought the propaganda hook line and sinker. And some actually thought that they were part of an enlightened minority who saw though the propaganda, not realizing that 90% of the fleet did too and was just running with it. That's why we kept using it even if it got old or stale, because most people kind of got a kick out of it and it fired them up, even if it was quite apparent to all parties that it was just rah-rah.

So while hating the other guy would make people log on, finding out that the other guy had GMs and devs in his pocket would make people log off and quit. Primarily me, too; there's a lot of crap that's never been revealed publicly and eventually it just ruined my desire to play, leaving nothing but a sense of bitterness and loathing. Once we actively began investigating the corruption problem it became sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy; we'd find dirty laundy and it'd ruin our desire to play. For a while there, even before I had CEO dumped in my lap, Illuminati Jabber was more like City of Villains jabber. If I had to point to a low point, the absolute worst, was when in 9-9 we sat there watching Widebrant and Parid try to fuel pos's and time stront while getting repeatedly bowled by supercaps. It was so obviously wrong, so clearly a stupid retarded exploit, with the smirking cunts in local giggling about it... and then of course, as soon as we got a supercap it was declared an exploit on that very day. Just a coincidence in a sea of bitter coincidences. Bein said that Titans made me crazy, and yeah, he's right.

Getting CEO dumped in my lap sucked. I never wanted it, and one day Rem just said "I'm quitting, I can't take it anymore, here you go." I hated being in the big chair and it's obvious to everyone that I didn't want the job. The only thing that was keeping me there was a feeling of obligation to goons, and eventually that snapped too. Before I was CEO, EVE stayed at the office, something I did in my off-time to amuse me. When I was made CEO, suddenly EVE became an all-day job from hell. Perfectly timed, might I add, for the worst part of the war and the worst part of the supercap abuse era. Jabber was a nightmare; Remedial was repeatedly trying to convince me and the directors to abandon absolutely everything and go back to Syndicate. He was the worst backseat CEO possible, and he called his 'abandon everything' plan a Modest Proposal. Had a whole writeup ready to go, and every fucking day he'd try to wear me down into posting it. I almost did, too. It's incredibly demoralizing to have the guy you followed from day one telling you that everything is hopeless and all of your efforts will come to naught, and it's even worse when you're supposed to 'put on a brave face' for a job you hate. It was a great one-two punch: "I'm quitting. You're in charge, you have to make the tough decisions and accept responsibility for them! Now, do this. Why aren't you doing this? Nothing you will do will succeed. You need to take us back to NPC space." Etc.

Basically, I was intended to be Rem's fall guy, looking back on it. He was convinced that GS was doomed and wanted it back to NPC space where he felt it would be safe, but he didn't want to accept responsibility for that decision, so he made me CEO (you can forcibly grant CEOship, it requires no consent in-game), told everyone I was CEO, then tried to make me be the one who forced goonfleet go back to Syndicate. Then he stole the titan fund and proved to everyone that he's a shithead, so I can now gleefully reveal his efforts throughout my very brief, disastrous administration to give up and go all the way home.

The cunt.

Still bitter.

I'm still pissed about it, and yes, he did steal the titan fund, no, it's not some secret prank or plan. He took the money from the people who put a roof over his head and paid his rent, and no, I haven't said a word to him since I resigned.

Speaking of Zosh, VCBees were awesome fun and some of my fondest memories in EVE are of setting up GoonPlatoon with Kiwillian and bumping into shit and demanding missl. They also pissed BoB off so much that it was some of the best griefing we've done in the history of GS, and if I could somehow still have VCbees actively polluting empire and causing havoc or just blowing up horribly and comedically, I'd do it.

aaaaaaaaanyway, that's a big load off my chest. I did to Sesfan what Rem did to me, namely dumping CEOship on him (THE ABUSED BECOME THE ABUSERS), but he's been a war leader, and a leader of men (space nerds) since the day I joined goonfleet; he's much better suited for it than me, and has done an amazing job turning a shit situation around. The big thing that I did for Sesfan that Remedial didn't do for me was to fucking vanish for a good long while and not offer any advice or policy suggestions unless specifically contacted about them, and then in private. Because good god is it hard to manage an organization this big with a fat faggot sitting behind you openly telling your directors how your plans suck and are doomed and that we should all just give up and go back to S-U.

That's not to say that I would have been a good CEO had Rem not interfered, since I didn't want to be CEO and am flat out not suited to being the Guy In Charge. The whole thing seriously damaged my ability to make dispassionate political calls, which before I was very, very good at before being CEO; it's easy to make a reasoned political choice when it's your boss who's going to take the heat, but when it's you yourself in the leadership chair, suddenly a lot of other personal considerations and fears start fucking with your ability (or mine, the really good politicans can lead and make sober calls at the same time) to make sound decisions.

Oh hey look at that, still bitter. All political careers end in failure, the DC maxim goes, and there we are. The important thing is that GS has finally reached the goal we've worked so hard on for so long: it is self-sufficient and unable to be destroyed. You guys have finally caught up, by and large, in terms of skillpoints, capital pilots, and logistical ability. You don't have to worry about anyone coming down and wiping you out, because you're kicking the balls of the meanest thing in this game every single day. And ultimately that bottom line is all that matters.

The Mittani's version of events, I found it interesting.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on July 26, 2007, 10:22:03 AM
Is that in spacegbs somewhere non-obvious?  Tell me I don't have to go into SPYAD?  :roll:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on July 26, 2007, 10:24:59 AM
Page 5 of the "We Never Wanted That MMO Anyway" thread in SGBS.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on July 26, 2007, 10:34:21 AM
Why would you lie to me?  It was page 7.  You Mittani-rolled me :colbert:


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on July 26, 2007, 10:40:59 AM
I'm tempted to post the "Remedial Plan" - it's hilarious with hindsight.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Endie on July 26, 2007, 11:00:59 AM
yeah, if BoB only knew how close they were to winning there, before the tables turned.

Well, given the number of spies they have on our boards, they do know. But you know what I mean.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Comstar on July 26, 2007, 11:08:17 AM
Well seeing as everyone who matters knows about it, what was it?


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on July 26, 2007, 12:27:14 PM
Oh, all right then. Read, ye mighty, and despair at just how close BoB and/or CCP came to beating Goonswarm:
Quote
Originally Posted by That Fat Fuck
Recommendations from an old CEO:

Having been out of power for a few days, and examining our situation with a more objective look, I have a recommendation that a lot of goons are going to hate. Before I begin, let me just say something: this isn't me being emo. This isn't me being melodramatic or pessimistic or depressed. My finals are over, I'm getting happily married, starting my dream job now, and I only play a little Eve as it is. I'm just giving this advice but that's my new role: advisor. I don't make anyone do anything, I can just recommend and let them make up their own minds, and I figure that Mittani can just lock this thread if he hates it so here goes:

We should evacuate absolutely everything we can out of conquerable space, sell it for corp funds or mothball it for the future, and go live in NPC space once again.

-------------

"What the christ what are you talking about faggot?" you say. Well, let me explain my rationale.

I believe that the following facts are not in dispute:

1) Capital ships are the new battleships in fleet combat
2) Without considering support fleets, Whoever has way more capital ships present at a battle than the other side is almost certainly going to win that fleet fight.
3) You need more POSs than the other side to keep Sov and thus control over station systems.
4) You can only avoid fleet combat over POSs by timing stront so long as you have more POSs than the other guy and can block the rest of the moons in a system.

Now let me advance some more facts that aren't in dispute for anybody who knows GS

well:

5) GS/RA/TCF/etc. have far fewer capitals than BoB/Slaves/Allies/etc.
6) As they are now, Titans make almost all support fleets irrelevant.
7) Virtually every one of our station systems has dozens of moons.
8) We do not have the money to spam small offlines on every moon.
9) We certainly do not have the money to spam large deathstars in quantity.
10) BoB/etc. have plenty of money, and they have begun to large POS spam.

If you take accept points 1-10, you will soon realize that we are fucked. Not "fucked" in the "we are all going to die and MORALE FAILURE CASCADE and BoB are INVINCIBLE", but "fucked" in the sense that the game is broken to our detriment. Points 1-4 make this game Not Fun. I'm not sure if CCP intentionally designed these balance changes in order to try shit out and use this war as a guinea pig for improving their game, or if they just didn't realize how retarded they made capitals in fleet combat, but in a real sense it doesn't matter.

So, I think that there are a couple of things that are going to happen.

First, I think that BoB will begin POS spamming our hubs. GoonSwarm will levy a bunch of taxes, and raise a lot of money from donations, but ultimately we either have to empty the entire Titan fund into POS spamming to keep up with BoB, or begin losing hub sov.

Second, our combined Coalition shortage of capitals means that we can really only win in non-Euro TZs, so BoB will just time all of their POSs to come out in Euro time. RA and TCF and GS will have a series of great fights... in the US/Russian TZ, and BoB will time stront, and it won't mean shit because they're not going to fuck up their stront timers like the other chump alliances we've killed. And even if they did, they have more money so they can just buy more, and we can't keep 200 larges online for very long.

Third, given the POS spam, unless we can afford more large POSs than the Alliance, we're ultimately going to lose sov basically everywhere important outside of SP. And then the FTZ will die, our member income will begin to dry up, and we will become concentrated in the remaining full-deathstar systems like KZF, RYC, etc.

Fourth, BoB/MC/whoever will park about 3 Titans and 5 motherships between these systems, and basically make them totally unliveable with constant DDs, over and over and over, plus huge swarms of fighters. They'll sit capitals just outside of POSs, and camp every last station we have while they wait for us to fuck up and lose some moons to more POS spam.

Fifth, the game will go from Not Fun, to "I'm paying $15 a month so that Eve can be balanced like THIS?" and GoonSwarm will begin to lose a lot of players to other games, to boredom, to frustration, and to the general anger that people feel towards CCP for ruining their own game with retarded capital shit.

And Sixth, we will end up moving back to Syndicate anyway.

So my argument is: skip all of that bullshit, and just move back to Syndicate now.

Take all of our extra towers, hand them to RA so that they can POS spam the systems they own so that they make BoB's life miserable trying to take the last X RA systems. Take all of our portable assets, and jump them to RA space and put them up for sale. Take all of our director hangar items like dread ammo, fighters, fuel, whatever, and dump it right into Nync's lap. Pull down every single last tower in our space, mothball all of them in the stations, tell the FTZ to gtfo, and leave. Let people stay who want to fly with RA, but just get out.

Eve has been fun for me when GoonFleet/GoonSwarm had goals and the willpower to achieve those goals. At the moment, we don't have willpower because we don't have realistic goals. You cannot beat somebody at chess when you start with six pawns and a king, and that's what Eve is like right now. We weren't rich before, so we didn't have the cash to make 60 carriers and 60 dreads and 2 Titans. Not even RA is that rich and they (according to BoB) lol 10/10 plexed for months and months. We don't have the money to play SPAM THE POS and we don't have the capitals to play SPAM THE CAPITAL and we don't have the titans to play SPAM THE SUPPORT so there is no reason for us to continue to punish ourselves like this.

I think that we should take a break from alliance politics and POS wars until this game is fixed again. It may be a long break, but eventually CCP will pull its head out of its ass and realize that people are refusing to play their alliance warfare simulation because it sucks. In the meantime, we can go back to griefing, to teaching newbies how to live in Syndicate, to laughing like assholes while drunk in 20-30 man gangs, and by turning S-U8 into a hive colony again. Plus it'll make Hoegaarden shit a brick when 2000 GoonSwarm people show up on his doorstep one day and that's worth the whole effort right there.

So, tl;dr: fuck conquerable space, it's really boring right now, go back to Syndicate and become a gigantic terrorist state that does whatever it wants. Better that than sit here and let BoB masturbate over DD/Mothership kills night after night as they slowly POS spam all of our space.

And in conclusion,
Fuck Goons.


SINCERELY,
Remedial J. Crabs, III Esq.
NB: This is after Remedial quit, btw. Fortunately, none of the directors were listening to him much by this point.

It's also interesting to compare this with Suas' summary (copy here (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9357.msg319692#msg319692)) of the defence of XGH/retaking of 9-9 - Remedial seems to have bought in to the "BoB has infinite ISK" line fully.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Miasma on July 26, 2007, 12:48:21 PM
How dare he try and take the J. Crabs name, I hate him already.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: UnSub on July 30, 2007, 02:53:03 AM
I've missed this thread, and am greatful at its return.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 28, 2007, 08:01:13 AM
NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/arts/television/28eve.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

Quote
In an Ever-Changing Galaxy, the Action’s Starting to Get Intriguing

One of the strengths of an online computer game is that what you see when it first appears is not necessarily what you get if you pick it up years later.

With most media, of course, precisely the opposite is true. The content of a novel’s ninth printing is the same as the first. Likewise, it is considered sacrilege for a painter to lay so much as a drop of pigment on a work once it leaves the studio. “Remastered” is a common marketing hook in the music business, but ultimately that version of “Crosstown Traffic” on the umpteenth Jimi Hendrix compilation is much the same as the rendition that hit the airwaves four decades ago.

Online games are different. Inhabited by thousands or even millions of players, online worlds are constantly evolving, and not merely because of the ever-changing cast of characters within them. For their customary fee of $15 a month, players of what are called massively multiplayer games expect developers to add new features and rebalance old ones constantly.

That process of continual refinement has never been so effective as it has been for Eve Online, the science-fiction game first opened to the public by CCP of Iceland in May 2003. More than four years after its debut, when most games are either a distant memory or provoking burnout among longtime players, Eve is only now hitting its stride as one of the most interesting games in the world.

After all, what other game has a Ph.D. economist on the staff who publishes a quarterly newsletter about the game’s virtual economy? What other game recently announced plans for an elected player council with ideas drawn from philosophers from Aristotle to John Rawls?

Eve takes place in a fictional galaxy in a far future, where humanity has splintered into four competing factions, the theocratic Amarr, the militaristic Caldari, the liberal Gallente and the rebel Minmatar. Players choose a side and find their own path.

With its formidable depth, complexity and Kilimanjaro-like learning curve, Eve will never rival World of Warcraft and its nine million customers for mass-market appeal. But at a stage when most games have long since stagnated, Eve continues to grow, recently passing 200,000 subscribers. Today, CCP plans to announce a major graphics overhaul scheduled for Dec. 5. Just this past Sunday, Eve set a record for any game when it recorded 37,729 simultaneous players in its common virtual universe.

Explaining that statistic should go a long way toward explaining what makes Eve unique.

In most online games, players are split among dozens or even hundreds of identical copies of the game world, known as servers. Each server generally has a total population of around 10,000 players. In World of Warcraft, for instance, the game’s roughly 2.5 million United States customers are divvied up among about 220 servers. At any given moment, each server has at most only a few thousand users actually playing the game. (People do have real-world obligations, after all, like sleeping.)

Moreover, in most games users are segregated according to language and nationality. Because the total population of each server is so small, it is vital to provide a critical mass of players who speak the same language and play in common time zones.

In many ways Eve is more like the real world. All 200,000 of Eve’s players exist in one huge virtual galaxy spanning thousands of solar systems. About 40 percent of Eve’s players are European, another 40 percent are North American, and about 20 percent are from other continents. They all share one polyglot community around the clock, and at any moment tens of thousands of users are logged on.

More important, the economy and politics of Eve are almost entirely driven by the players themselves. Miners drill asteroids and sell their ore to industrialists who construct spaceships and weapons at orbital factories. Industrialists then sell their wares to vast fighting forces that battle for control of entire regions of space. Other players make their living as full-time traders, scrupulous or otherwise. If another player cheats you, you can take it lying down, retaliate on your own or hire mercenaries to exact revenge.

“There are basically two schools of thought for operating an online community,” Hilmar Petursson, CCP’s chief executive, said in a telephone interview yesterday.

“There is the theme-park approach and the sandbox approach,” he continued. “Most games are like Disneyland, for instance, which is a carefully constructed experience where you stand in line to be entertained. We focus on the sandbox approach where people can decide what they want to do in that particular sandbox, and we very much emphasize and support that kind of emergent behavior.”

The most compelling aspect of Eve is that once players control a region of virtual space, they bear the responsibility of policing it, setting taxes, establishing diplomatic relations with neighboring groups and waging battles to protect their territory or take more. In most online games, the advanced content involves getting together with a few dozen friends to battle computer-controlled dragons and demons. In Eve, major battles involve hundreds of players fighting in starships in vast “Star Wars”-like firefights.

At the strategic level, coalitions involving tens of thousands of players struggle for months over strategic objectives or simply to wipe out their enemies. For at least a year the most powerful group in Eve has been an alliance known as Band of Brothers, a self-appointed evil empire with the stated objective of taking over the galaxy. Against them is arrayed a motley batch of self-styled freedom fighters with names like the Red Alliance (mostly Russian), Tau Ceti Federation (mostly French), GoonSwarm (mostly obnoxious) and the Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate (mostly drunk).

As in any war, propaganda can be as formidable a weapon as a gun. Earlier this year a scandal erupted in which a CCP employee in Band of Brothers (known far and wide as BOB) was found to have improperly given his group technical blueprints that could have helped decide the war.

GoonSwarm, however, turned the incident to its side’s advantage by using the scandal to undermine confidence in the legitimacy of BOB’s achievements. Since then, BOB has lost vast swaths of in-game territory and remains on the defensive.

“We did a survey in our database at the point of the controversy, and it turned out there were actually more CCP employees in GoonSwarm than in BOB,” Mr. Petursson said yesterday. “What happened first and foremost was that the controversy created demoralization within BOB and a downward spiral because they started to doubt themselves and the legitimacy of their achievements. GoonSwarm’s P.R. campaign was effective in creating this impression, and a lot of people left BOB, I think, because of this idea. And kudos to GoonSwarm for having good P.R.”

Tiny drama bomb.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Simond on November 28, 2007, 08:39:02 AM
Devswarm poasting ITT.  :uhrr:

Edit: Just for the slow of thinking, the difference between devs in BoB and devs in Goonswarm (or IAC, Tri, RA, or any of the many other alliances that almost certainly have CCP employees in them) is that BoB a) knew who the devs were, and b) got handed advantages by their devs (BPOs, advance warnings for game changes, access to CCP's internal alpha test server, etc, etc), while nobody else did. Any CCP employees that were discovered outside of BoB were removed from the corp and had their character renamed.

Hell, we had a 'pet' GM who maed poast (and nothing else) on our forums for all of a day before he was told to quit it and given a name change. That's the closest we ever came to in-game help from a CCP employee.


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: Sparky on November 28, 2007, 11:58:34 AM
NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/arts/television/28eve.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

Quote
“We did a survey in our database at the point of the controversy, and it turned out there were actually more CCP employees in GoonSwarm than in BOB,” Mr. Petursson said yesterday. “What happened first and foremost was that the controversy created demoralization within BOB and a downward spiral because they started to doubt themselves and the legitimacy of their achievements. GoonSwarm’s P.R. campaign was effective in creating this impression, and a lot of people left BOB, I think, because of this idea. And kudos to GoonSwarm for having good P.R.”

FWIW the hacker dude who uncovered the T20 stuff came to the goon forums and said when he cracked them (on behalf of LV) there were no @CPP IP addresses except for one GM who registered during the fanfest to say hi.  Might have been a bit of social engineering to get the goons even more ravenous or maybe Goon CCP employees were a bit more discreet and only played from home, who knows.

Ancient history now though as CCP really have made a big effort to clean themselves up.  But just thought I'd share that titbit. 


Title: Re: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!
Post by: TripleDES on December 11, 2007, 12:51:53 PM
NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/arts/television/28eve.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

Tiny drama bomb.
Good PR my ass. If that was so obvious that time, why didn't they say anything about it to effectively defuse the situation? Also, from what I know, during the Band of Developers drama phase, Goonswarm only allowed select outsiders into the alliance, while keeping up the SA registration requirement. I really doubt that GS would have had a higher ratio than BoB at that time.