CCP is unmerging with White Wolf, get your beards out

[d4rkj3di]

I just got back from EVE Fanfest (space nerds!) and from what I can tell they are holding off on an WoD Online for now and focusing on more of the EVE Offline. So, EVE Tabletop RPG, EVE Boardgame, EVE Graphic Novels and more CCG stuff.  CCP is almost 750 guys and a crate of vodka, when at this time last year there were 55. When asked about the nature of the deal, the CCP CEO joked that he was wearing a skirt and that this was almost like a marriage, and anyone who has been married knows who is in charge.

[stray]

I don't see the point of this either/or argument between Eve and Diku. Neither one is ideal for even a moderately ideal WW game.

[Furiously]

Eve is all about content, just not diku-type content.

The Diku-type is there. It's just progress quested.

[Morat20]

I don't see the point of this either/or argument between Eve and Diku. Neither one is ideal for even a moderately ideal WW game.

The ideal WW game is single player -- or done by a skilled GM with a handful of experienced players. An MMORPG of WW is going to be non-ideal, by definition. However, I would prefer a CCP-style WW game to a WoW-style. Why?

The ASCN/BoB war. NOT the war proper. The trash-talking on the forums, the fevered speculations about the movements of covert ops ships, haulers, and fleets and what it means. The fact that non role-players are doing this. You think anyone on the WoW server really cares if the Alliance is massing at the Crossroads? You think people will be invested in that for months, talking about the logistics of fortifying the area to prevent an Alliance incursion and talking about the unusual number of Alliance rogues running around the Horde backfield?

No. I'll take a CCP-style game. It fits WoD better than the diku model. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a better choice than a WoW-version.

[Daeven]

EVE players do not 'generate content'. They fight over digital territory. There is no RPG element whatsoever. To get players to 'storytell', you have to get them off to a good start, and although Eve does try to provide some story arcs upon which one gets enough background to understand the nature of the game, its nowhere near enough to foment any roleplay. That is why the addition of WW makes some sense to me.

You just exactly described the entire White Wolf setting. Vampires fighting over territory / prestige / honor with other Vampires, Werewolves and mages. It is up to the Storyteller to make it a role playing experience.

*shrug*

I think it sounds like a good fit.

[stray]

The ASCN/BoB war. NOT the war proper. The trash-talking on the forums, the fevered speculations about the movements of covert ops ships, haulers, and fleets and what it means. The fact that non role-players are doing this.

I saw similar things occur in a diku once: Shadowbane.

Though I'd agree, if it was a choice between the two, I'd take CCP's philosophy over the other.

[Engels]

I don't think you know what content even means. You've been playing diku's too long and it has rotted your brain.

Eve has ~4000 player empires fighting each other for control of resources and territory. If your empire comes and invades my space and I have to drive you out that is meaningful content. Players building up space stations to secure territory is meaningful content. Unique player vs player battles are meaningful content.
In Eve you make the content. In Diku the 'content' makes you.

No need to get personal Krakrok; I was using the term 'content' in its assumed sense; I actually agree with you 100% that rehashed diku quest giving for killing 10 foozles for your next pair of gauntlets is tired and hardly deserves the term content, but that is what its called. Bad content if you will, but that's what we're talking about.

The difference between Eve's infrastructure for player-driven content and WW's 'infrastructure' for player-driven content is not a difference in type, but rather in depth. WW has an encyclopedic amount of lore, history, and background that EVE does not. This isn't because CCP sucks or anything; its just not been the focus of EVE. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm sorry if what I've said so far has broken some unspoken taboo against criticising CCP, but I'm not exactly the clarion call of enlightenment here; its been said before that EVE lacks a sufficiently pre-designed world to allow for immersion -without- the PVP player-driven element. WW, on the other hand, brings an enormous wealth of lore-making and adventure modules, etc that don't necessarily spoon-feed players DIKU-style wack-a-foozle stuff, but certainly could embellish what is currently a fairly flat universe.

[Wolf]

WW has an encyclopedic amount of lore, history, and background that EVE does not. This isn't because CCP sucks or anything; its just not been the focus of EVE. There's nothing wrong with that.

Not saying that EVE is even comparable to WW in the amount of lore, but I'm pretty sure you don't realise just how much lore there is about the universe. Both on the site and ingame. Here is a taste. EVE's Universe is deep. A lot deeper than most MMOs out there at the moment. What I've always wanted is stories (read books) in the EVE universe and with WW it seems I'm getting it.
 
Just adding one thing most of the guys hating on CCP in this thread fail to realise - EVE is not only alliance wars and PvP. There's a ton of roleplaying corps, there's a ton of "carebears", there's a ton of other guys. Yeah, they did the pvp best, but that doesn't mean there aren't other things in the game.

[stray]

Just an observation....

People "roleplay" in Eve more out of a sense of player politics and economics than they do lore. The same case with SB.

Also, I don't think the comparisons with WW and Eve lore are valid. VtM might be player driven, but not in the same way. There's a sort of enterprising, individualistic nature to what characters are allowed to do in Eve......While in VtM, the lore dictates and restricts many things about your character. You're not free to just create "Vandalay Industries", as you would in Eve. You answer to the Brujah or the Tremere or whatever in a much more extensive way than the factions in Eve.

[Wolf]

People "roleplay" in Eve more out of a sense of player politics and economics than they do lore. The same case with SB.

You are wrong. We have an expression - talking out of one's ass. It's used when a person is arguing about stuff he knows nothing about, basing his arguments on what he thinks is true. There are a lot of guilds that roleplay the lore of EVE, particularly true for all Amarr and all Minmatar corporations and even alliances. The lore is there. There are people who chose to use it to play the game. It is not as popular, outside the game, as the guys pvping out in 0.0 space, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the game.

[Engels]

A website is not exactly a slick deployment of content. Immersive storylines are best invoked within the game mechanic; its trickier to do, for sure, but its been pulled off before by worse companies than CCP.

[stray]

People "roleplay" in Eve more out of a sense of player politics and economics than they do lore. The same case with SB.

You are wrong. We have an expression - talking out of one's ass. It's used when a person is arguing about stuff he knows nothing about, basing his arguments on what he thinks is true. There are a lot of guilds that roleplay the lore of EVE, particularly true for all Amarr and all Minmatar corporations and even alliances. The lore is there. There are people who chose to use it to play the game. It is not as popular, outside the game, as the guys pvping out in 0.0 space, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the game.

Yeow. Chill dude. Try not to talk shit to me about this, k? The subject is "video games". Not politics.
 
Secondly, I played that game in beta and then bought it at launch. I might be the only person at this site who's actually done that. My first characters' names are Origin and Elvis. Those are fucking early bird names, man! Heh. I'm not talking out of my ass. I've played the game.

Damn. I shouldn't even have to defend that I've "really played Eve". What kind of fucking lame attack is that? It's a game. Not a country club.

Thirdly, I'm generalizing. Of course there's roleplayers in it. Every game has roleplayers in them. But you're the one talking out of your ass when you say ALL Amarr and Minmatar corps are roleplayers. Give me a break.

Mostly, it's players that have conflict in Eve. Not characters.

[ajax34i]

I think he means all-Amarr as in "we only recruit Amarr characters because we roleplay religious stuff" and the same for Minmatar-only anti-slavery roleplayer corps.

Eh.

[Morfiend]

A game where combat exists but is rarely used in public places because breaking the masquerade could lead to being banished from a city by a prince, or having hunters sent after you. So all the big cool ass vampire fights happen in sewers and rooftops, away from street wandering NPCs.

Mmmm yes, I want the sense of tension between yourself and some jackass in a public bar around human NPCs. The feeling of knowing that using your vampiric powers might get you banished and hunted, but you hate this little bitch so much and know that you have to keep your cool until you find the guy wandering alone in a dark alley. Or maybe you just have a non-vampiric fist fight, or even fire fight, with him. Then, when one of you comes close to dying, you're forced to decide between breaking the masquerade and winning the fight, or sucking up your pride and any penalty associated with death, and just letting your opponent win. Or maybe you kill him and every NPC in the bar so no one is left to accuse you of breaking anything, but you take a hit to your conscience pool~

This is where it could be cool. I would play some thing like this. I honestly think if any one around today could pull off some thing like this, it would be CCP. What they have done with EVE is amazing. Now, this is what I hope, but the chips are stacked against them in this.

Also,

Ok, here's....this.

A White Wolf MMOG would need a shitton of content. Like, real content.

Afaik, CCP has no clue how to do that.

Didnt we all just agree that White Wolf would be "Content Bitches"? Maybe thats where they plan to get it, you know by merging with a company that can make shit loads of content.

[stray]

I think he means all-Amarr as in "we only recruit Amarr characters because we roleplay religious stuff" and the same for Minmatar-only anti-slavery roleplayer corps.

Eh.

Got it.

[Simond]

To be honest, I'm looking forward to ship toys models collectable miniatures.

[Engels]

Now that would absolutely rule. I'd prefer snap-on or even old school glue and exacto knife plastic models of EVE ships. They could even market EVE paint kits, if they played their cards right. I'd regress to my glorious childhood years of modeling in a heartbeat.

[Yoru]

Now that would absolutely rule. I'd prefer snap-on or even old school glue and exacto knife plastic models of EVE ships. They could even market EVE paint kits, if they played their cards right. I'd regress to my glorious childhood years of modeling in a heartbeat.

Heh. Eve Pen-n-Paper dogfighting sims with pewter figurines.

[Falconeer]

You don't necro an 8 years old corpse lightly, but turns out World of Darkness isn't really dead, and it also turns out that "Sandbox" is the magic word to resurrects anything these days.

“The core dynamics of being human or vampire haven’t changed, but we’ve certainly been taking inspiration from a lot of recent things,” said Pétursson. ”For example, DayZ and Rust, which have shown us the power of a sandbox when you bring it into a more recognizable context.”

“The creators of those experiences often reference EVE Online as an inspiration for their things. We’re now cross-inspired by what we’re seeing there. How the absence of all these structured game mechanics – by just allowing these natural interactions to happen – that is something we’re definitely incorporating into how we think about World of Darkness.”

[Venkman]

That might be the very oldest necro we've had here. Anyone want to run a query? 

[Falconeer]

If that is the case, it says a lot about CCP's World of Darkness, doesn't it?

[tazelbain]

It was tossed in the garbage when they realized they couldn't support/develope EvE, Dust and WoD together.

[Threash]

Too bad, i've thought for years that a vampire mmo would be money hats.

[Miasma]

A million other vampires running around would make things awkward.

I'd love another Vampire: The Masquerade though.  I wonder who has that license these days.

[Venkman]

A million other vampires running around would make things awkward.

Dresden Files. Get your faction fighting within each supernatural group (Vampire Courts, Werewolves, Marcone's group in post Ghost Story days)  and then between the groups themselves.

Now just make it fun and profitable.

But heck, that's the easy part!

[Ghambit]

VtM is the most sandbox MMOable pnp RPG ever made imo; moreso if you inject oWod (mage, werewolf, etc.).  It's ridiculous it hasn't been done yet; though I shudder at the thought of balancing such a game. 

[Strazos]

Vampires vs Werewolves vs Hunters vs Mages or something? Shouldn't be impossible.

[Rendakor]

I really hope they don't make a great oWoD game. Because I'd probably quit my job for it.

[Kitsune]

This is CCP, your job is safe.

[satael]

WoD+CCP is one of the MMOs I'm actually looking forward to if they ever manage to make something since WoD is an established IP with tons of content and lore and CCP now actually owns it so there shouldn't be any problems with what they can put into the game (and they can get a significant part of the people who created the lore to work on it for the game).

this doesn't mean that I actually think they'll get anything done in the next few years

[Sir T]

WOD was given the kiss of death to anyone with their eyes open when CCP put in their "walking in stations" thing and it was just one guy in a room, and said that having people waling around where people could see each other would completely crash their network code. Somehow, what shitty Korean MMOs have been doing for years is unbelievably complex and network crippling.

Now, Vampire walking around trying to stay hidden and feed from the Masses COULD be an interesting premise a la Day Z if it was done right. (Rust is a masochism simulator not a game at this point) You COULD kind of have an "Alone in a crowd" thing where instead of a nuclear wasteland you would have Grey crowds of people and the Vamps would stand out to each other in colour. Add in some kind of feeding mechanic and having to feed hidden or the crowds would attack you could be an interesting premise. That moving a bit away from WOD but its certainly one hazy vision of how vampire style Day-Z could possibly work.

[Modern Angel]

This is never, ever going to happen. Friend of mine in the industry hired one of their UI artists two years ago after CCP laid him off during the last "this game is going strong really we swear ignore these layoffs" thing. UI guy said it's complete vaporware and a disaster.

If it does miraculously come out, it's going to be a company killer. The sunk costs on this thing have to be astronomical. They essentially banished the IP, once the second most popular RPG on the market, from bookstores after Ryan Dancey (who is a complete tool and I'm amazed he keeps getting employment) insisted that TT games are "legacy business". POD only.

So, super, guys. You've taken the IP, the only thing that's going to make such a niche product a success, and made certain to keep it out of the public eye. It's now been in development for nine years. It's gone through massive redesigns over and over.

It's a fiasco of tremendous proportions and it should be talked about more.

[Yoru]

This is never, ever going to happen. Friend of mine in the industry hired one of their UI artists two years ago after CCP laid him off during the last "this game is going strong really we swear ignore these layoffs" thing. UI guy said it's complete vaporware and a disaster.

...

It's a fiasco of tremendous proportions and it should be talked about more.

This is all pretty much true, but is missing a piece of the bigger picture. That project is basically a welfare program for a handful of CCP's founders who want to live in America. That's it. Period. These folks who are super-high on their own supply - they think they're infallible geniuses, but they have no concrete idea what to do beyond "man, a vampire MMO would be super cool; job done, pass that handle of Jack."

With that in mind, yet another pivot towards "cool sandbox game of the moment" is entirely unsurprising.

Most of the original WOD folks have gotten fed up and cashed out. Go look at the White Wolf staff list from 2006, then compare it to who works there now - almost no-one, and particularly none of the writing/creative staff.

[Modern Angel]

They've all mostly moved on, yeah. And Onyx Path is doing quite well as a small imprint.

But I'm fundamentally of the position that it's a better world when pen and paper RPGs (and board games, card games, etc) have companies which can provide a livable wage, steady income, and benefits. White Wolf was one of the handful of companies still able to do that and it only stopped being that because of CCP and Dancey. Even if I've moved on to other sorts of RPGs over the years, I am still just absolutely enraged by that old decision. It sucked and it was immensely unfair to that company's legacies and employees.

[Morat20]

A million other vampires running around would make things awkward.

Dresden Files. Get your faction fighting within each supernatural group (Vampire Courts, Werewolves, Marcone's group in post Ghost Story days)  and then between the groups themselves.

I'm interested and would subscribe to that newsletter.

Balancing it would be a pain. The Dresden Files RPG uses a FATE system which I don't see translating to MMORPGs easily.

But yeah, three Vampire Courts, more flavors of Wizard than you can imagine, empowered mortals (werewolves mostly) and just straight up guys with lots of guns...