Vanguard is live.

[shiznitz]

Things from last night's play session:

1. Heavy tanks appear unable to hold aggro.

4. Mobs are still having warping, pathing, and z-axis problems.  I had several mobs hit me from underground.  Fighting on hilly terrain can produce comical results.

Guildmates confirm 1 every night in chat and I also witness 4 regularly. On the warping, mobs will often take several steps after my root spell visually hits. If they are walking toward a steep hill at the time, they will vanish into it like there is an illusionary wall. The root will then keep them there and I can blast them with spells until root breaks at which point they warp on top of me.

[Signe]

Heh, just like EQ. It good to see that somethings never change :-D

I ran into an NPC named Haaden complaining about a lost earring.  Brad is definately trying to draw from the past.  I don't think this is going to end like he had hoped.

No!  Please tell you're joking!

[Nebu]

I also see mobs moonwalking (they walk backwards rather than turn around and walk on their path).  If they don't fix it soon, I'm going to rename this Michael Jackson online.  I just don't know how they could have overlooked these simple little things.  They're glaringly obvious to anyone after like 20 mins of playing. 

[Nebu]

No!  Please tell you're joking!

You did try to warn me.  You earn the right to liberally distribute "I told you so's".

[Trippy]

I also see mobs moonwalking (they walk backwards rather than turn around and walk on their path).  If they don't fix it soon, I'm going to rename this Michael Jackson online.  I just don't know how they could have overlooked these simple little things.  They're glaringly obvious to anyone after like 20 mins of playing. 

They had so many bugs on their bug list and not nearly enough time to fix them all that I'm sure they just ignored all the cosmetic bugs (which that one sounds like) to try and fix the critical ones like server crashes and data corruption issues.

[HaemishM]

I also see mobs moonwalking (they walk backwards rather than turn around and walk on their path).  If they don't fix it soon, I'm going to rename this Michael Jackson online.  I just don't know how they could have overlooked these simple little things.  They're glaringly obvious to anyone after like 20 mins of playing. 

It's a legacy bug. As in, the legacy of EQ1 and its development team that never could learn how to make mobs path worth a fuck. Dungeons like Mistmoore and Unrest were complete nightmares not so much because of the layout or the mobs themselves, but because the shitty shit shit shit pathing on mobs would cause trains that cleared the whole zone top to bottom every 15 minutes or so.

[Sky]

On tanks holding aggro...is it an issue with the nukers not being disciplined or folks learning how to work the aggro system? Part of EQ was always trying to avoid pulling aggro from the tank...

[Nebu]

On tanks holding aggro...is it an issue with the nukers not being disciplined or folks learning how to work the aggro system? Part of EQ was always trying to avoid pulling aggro from the tank...

Oh... you're playing vanguard?

[Sky]

Nope. My computer would probably cry.

[Nebu]

The aggro management is borked, that's why I snapped.  A warrior can take a mob to half health while taunting (and I'm not exaggerating about half being 50%) and a debuff can cause an aggro shift.  I've never seen anything like it.  What's the point in having debuffs if you can only apply them when the mob is at 20% health?

[Venkman]

Kill it quicker.

*runs*

[shiznitz]

On tanks holding aggro...is it an issue with the nukers not being disciplined or folks learning how to work the aggro system? Part of EQ was always trying to avoid pulling aggro from the tank...

As Nebu said, no. Pet classes also have issues. The necro in my guild was bitching all night in vent that no matter how long he let his pet tank a mob, it would aggro the necro on the first debuff.

[Cheddar]

You guys have inspired me to get the Burning Crusade expansion for WoW.  Thank you for shedding bloody tears and saving me the agony of server launch!

/runs off to toy with a stable game

[Morat20]

You guys have inspired me to get the Burning Crusade expansion for WoW.  Thank you for shedding bloody tears and saving me the agony of server launch!

/runs off to toy with a stable game

Well, in all fairness WoW is having aggro issues too. Let's face it -- the fact that marksman specced hunter pets are generating more aggro because of AP scaling than Beastmaster specced hunters is like totally a game-breaking problem. :)

[Ixxit]

On tanks holding aggro...is it an issue with the nukers not being disciplined or folks learning how to work the aggro system? Part of EQ was always trying to avoid pulling aggro from the tank...

As Nebu said, no. Pet classes also have issues. The necro in my guild was bitching all night in vent that no matter how long he let his pet tank a mob, it would aggro the necro on the first debuff.

Is your friend using the pet's taunt ability (forget the exact name)?  I have a lvl 6 necro, and once I send my pet in and use that ability I debuff --> dot --> direct damage(dd) -> dd (until dead).  Usually by the second dd spell the agro shifts and the mob starts running toward me, and it eithers dies en route or I it goes down after a goodnight kiss from my dagger.

[EDIT] As an aside, the first necro pet you get (the abomination) is really evil looking, kind of like a gangly Doom imp. Great animation.  The first time I saw one ingame, using an alt I though some poor bastard was being chased by some nasty demon.

[Falconeer]

Tanking is definitely an issue so far. I am a tank in VG and I am level 12, that means I already tanked a couple of dungeons for good, and dealt with my share of named and open dungeons mayhem (level 12 in Vg it's actually higher than a level 12 on similar recent games).
As everyone else said it's hard to keep aggro and is especially hard for the tank to re-take aggro, meaning if the rogue gets aggroed, as a tank you'll have a very hard time to get what's rightfully yours (aggro..). Still, a couple considerations:

1) Rescues are the key. With rescues I can do a proper job as a tank and I am learning to manage aggro better day after day. First rescue come at level 10 for the paladin, and I guess at level 14 for warriors. Before your first rescue you have close to no way to keep aggro.
2) While rescues are they key, regular "taunt" skills or threat booster combat arts seem perfectly useless. Some work is STRONGLY needed here.

and
3) I am still unsure about the whole thing. There are situations where I clearly feel like the aggro is borked, but while running some tests with friends we almost (*almost*) pinned down the whole thing. It's too soon to tell if we are right or wrong, but what I can safely say is that as long as some taunt skills are definitely underpowered (to say the least), the whole aggro mechanic is not "easy", on the contrary it is very complex. Getting first hit, disciplining and limiting DPS and especially POSITIONING are key. In other games things like this start to happen at higher levels while in VG it seems like they are in since level 1.

Bottom line: the Aggro/taunt system DEFINITELY need some tweaks, but it looks like they decided to make it a complex thing. There's no way a group can enter a dungeon and just unleash fury in slaughter mode. It has to be disciplined to the extreme and your group have to care about aggro exactly like the tank. That doesn't necessarily means fun, of course. And, as I said, I am not sure yet we got it right. But I am afraid the most of it is working as intended (at least on their part).

[Surlyboi]

You guys have inspired me to get the Burning Crusade expansion for WoW.  Thank you for shedding bloody tears and saving me the agony of server launch!

/runs off to toy with a stable game

Fuck THAT noise, I'll just play more CoX or else call it a day 'til  .

[Rithrin]

One thing I will say about the VG aggro system is... I finally don't mind playing a Tank class. In other games, its always "We wiped. lrn2tank noob. /disband", but in VG the blame is usually on multiple people. And interestly enough, only two of the Defensive Fighter type classes seem to be made to tank. Dark Knight's rescues only force the mob to attack them for a couple of hits, which isn't even long enough for the global cooldown to refresh so you can hit the mob with an agrro ability.

[Rithrin]

Edit: How did I double post? ::boggle::

[Hound]

wake me when this fucker is out of beta please. I have no doubt that one day this will be a great game, however that day is in the distant future it seems

[Nebu]

wake me when this fucker is out of beta please. I have no doubt that one day this will be a great game, however that day is in the distant future it seems

Even when they fix the bugs, the pathing, the imbalances, crafting, etc. it still won't be a great game.  A slight twist on an old game, yes. 

[palmer_eldritch]

I bet I've got a new one - when I try to open an account (having bought the box from a store), I get told the game is still in closed beta . . .

[Hound]

I bet I've got a new one - when I try to open an account (having bought the box from a store), I get told the game is still in closed beta . . .

I can top that one. I just logged in and made a character with my closed beta client, now if I could just motivate myself to play.

[Rithrin]

Seems everyone who was in beta still has their account open. I haven't gotten around to picking up my retail copy, but I was just playing about 5 minutes ago.

[Hound]

Seems everyone who was in beta still has their account open. I haven't gotten around to picking up my retail copy, but I was just playing about 5 minutes ago.

I am not in the industry so would accidentally giving all the beta testers accounts in the retail game constitute a major "oh fuck" or a minor "well shit".

[pants]

Seems everyone who was in beta still has their account open. I haven't gotten around to picking up my retail copy, but I was just playing about 5 minutes ago.

Well aint that a chuckle.  If I hadn't have deleted the client from my PC, I would create a char, log on, and sledge my ex guildies for paying for something I had for free. 

[Venkman]

Actually, I thought they specifically said that everyone in the beta at the end could keep their character (or at least use their client) come launch. I imagine people would still need to at least enter a CD Key though. The very last people you want to GIVE the game away to are the folks most likely to drop cash on it :)

[Rithrin]

Yeah I don't think its a mistake. Let me quote my account page for you:

Owning Station Account:       xxxxxxxx
Subscription Name:      Vanguard Subscription
Period:      1 Month
Enabled Features       
# In Game Item: Scroll (pre-order retail)
Account Status:      Exempt

Exempt? I'm liking the sound of that actually...  But really I think this is a good move. Their account/billing system is so fubar right now I can't actually register the key I just picked up from the store, so if it wasn't for this free account thing I wouldn't be able to play 'till whenever they fix it up. Of course, whether being able to play is a good thing is debatable at this point - my client seems to run about 10 FPS slower than usual right now and I didn't do anything other than log in.

[Nebu]

I could not even log on tonight as the character select screen can't seem to find my toons.  Also noticed that the direct log-to-character option sends you to character select and not into the game. 

I tried for 30 mins.  Since that's half the time I have to play, I'm a bit irritated.

[Strazos]

I just think it's pitiful how close to EQ this game is.

There's wood elves...and of course they have a city with a bunch of ramps up into the trees. I watched a buddy of mine for about an hour, and the game just felt like EQ.

I mean, why do you have the have all the same skills? Safe Fall?  Come on Brad, you could at least TRY here.

[Falconeer]

I just think it's pitiful how close to EQ this game is.

There's wood elves...and of course they have a city with a bunch of ramps up into the trees. I watched a buddy of mine for about an hour, and the game just felt like EQ.

I mean, why do you have the have all the same skills? Safe Fall?  Come on Brad, you could at least TRY here.

What you need to understand is that some people WANTED Brad to make EQ2, or EQ++, since the actual EQ2 doesn't feel like EQ at all.
Brad didn't even tried to do anything different as he wanted to re-possess EverQuest since forever. This is pretty clear in the Vanguard Lore, gameplay and even in the fonts.

[Azazel]

Yeah, you've really nailed the point that a lot of people here have missed. It really is and was designed to be the true sequel to (Brad-era) EQ. That's what Brad wanted, thats what the Vanbois wanted. Hard work, effort, grind, (equals "depth", apparently) and so forth.

Just with more shiney graphics. No instances, camps, harsh death penalties, hardcore on the grouping, huge world, slow travel, etc etc. The fact that some of those things have been backed-off to a lesser or greater extent is a reflection of the post-wow marketplace.

[Miasma]

What you need to understand is that some people WANTED Brad to make EQ2, or EQ++, since the actual EQ2 doesn't feel like EQ at all.

Yes this is true.  Say what you will of EQ but my general feeling from a lot of the people on this board is that they spent a considerable amount of time in EQ despite its flaws, many to the point of addiction.  For most of us it is one of the few, if not the only, MMO that kept us as active players for over a year.  Since then we just bounced around in all the other MMOs for a few months and left (with the huge exception of WoW).

I started playing MMOs with the horrific release of Anarchy Online, you'd think the experience would have turned me off of MMOs forever but something in the concept of playing with thousands of other people intrigued me.  Then I went to SWG... another failure which I left in the first month, then Earth and Beyond which I couldn't get into, then the same problem with DAoC.  So I thought I'd try that old looking game with the crappy graphics that has all those expansions with the stupid elf woman on the front, Everquest.  I rolled a halfling and ventured out into this terribly out of date zone called Misty Thicket, started playing and didn't stop for years.  After I left (only because I was ticked off at my guildleader) I bounced around from AC2, Eve, WoW and a dozen others but just couldn't live in any of those worlds.  I want a slightly more casual EQ without as much of the pain and suffering.  While I'm not optimistic about Vanguard it might be the last chance I get.

Not everything we enjoy has to be innovative and new, don't fix something if it already works.  Millions of people are enjoying the hell out of WoW and there is absolutely nothing new or innovative there, all they did was cherry pick the best ideas from other games and put out a fun, polished product.  I don't care about innovation, I just want to have fun.  I don't care if the core idea is something centuries old like chess or card games, so long as I'm having fun playing with other people, chatting with them, designing my own avatar and winning little trophies I will play it.

[Nebu]

Not everything we enjoy has to be innovative and new, don't fix something if it already works.  Millions of people are enjoying the hell out of WoW and there is absolutely nothing new or innovative there, all they did was cherry pick the best ideas from other games and put out a fun, polished product.  I don't care about innovation, I just want to have fun.  I don't care if the core idea is something centuries old like chess or card games, so long as I'm having fun playing with other people, chatting with them, designing my own avatar and winning little trophies I will play it.

There's a healthy market for derivative versions of Monopoly that has existed for years.  People don't necessarily want wholesale changes in their games.  Sometimes all it takes is a tweak or two.

[LC]

Anyone that purchased Vancrap should have their hands cut off. It's like sending money to feed starving al-Qaeda members.