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Topic: Vanguard is live. (Read 129364 times)
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Azazel
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You guys are silly.
If there's anyone who has the right to re-make the old diku/eq gameplay, that man is Brad McQuaid. I don't like him, but you can't fuck with him because he tries to best himself at the only thing he did good in his life. Blame the cloners, blame the market, don't blame him and his game this is NOT his 5th diku, it's just his second one, and should you ever make anything in your life that you are proud of, you'd probably do the same: try to make it again, but better. According to your OWN perspective.
I don't think people are fucking with him because he's tried to remake something that worked. I think people are fucking with him because what's been released after countless manhours and dollars being poured into it is a buggy, unpolished piece of shit. To wit: excluding "fun", because that's a matter of taste: If the game worked properly, was not buggy, properly tested, and for example didn't have massive game-altering changes patched into it, you know, a week from release then I think people might well be saying things more akin to "that game sucks donkey balls, but I guess at least it works and seems to have no major problems". This genre, as in 3d dikus, is less than 10 years old and you are SO fed up with it to the point of being scared it will eventually eat up your videogaming dream world? The MMO world will be corrupted because a few guys still like this pretty young kind of games? Oh, but where were you all when Stray and me said WoW is fucking Stepford meet invasion of the Body Snatchers? TEN FUCKING MILLION IDIOTS ARE PLAYING WORLD OF WARCRAFT AND YOU ARE HERE BUSTING BALLS ABOUT THE (supposed) 200k WHO WILL PLAY VANGUARD??
You are all talking about lessons to be learned, so which is the lesson to be learned here? "Polish your game"? That's it?
A couple things: Ever heard of dogpiling? Vanguard, due to Brad's bullshit and hyperbole, renowned embracing of old-skool eq1 difficulty levels++, drop from MS, forced release, and the mess it's in makes it a popular and easy target. Geldon's public love affair with it hasn't helped it either on this board. WoW is simply EQ+ made better and polished and shiny and friendly. On release. Neither Vanguard and EQ2 on release are/were that. You may be enjoying VG, and that's fine. But it's not polished or friendly, and the framerate prevents it from being shiny, even if some of the scenic stills look pretty. EDIT: And by the way, this is not about Vanguard anymore. This is about you all being silly. Being jaded and cynical is one thing. Being obsessed is another.
Why do you hate America? ;) Why? He had his shot, he pissed it away with "WORKING AS INTENDED!" and rigid ego trips about how to play the game. And from the looks of things, he's making the same damn game anyway, with some of the same damn bugs and flaws. Fuck him and his raging douchebag ego.
Not to mention Vanguard isn't "EQ done right" by Brad's stated views. All the hard core cock-blocking and dick-grinding was removed -- and from the comments in Beta that started happening right about the time SOE had to step in to get it finished. It's still more grindy and painful than WoW -- but it's not a damn thing like what he originally envisioned. It's also no surprise that it went from shit-hole to possibly one day fun when Brad's vision got shitcanned. I just thought these two comments were worth reiterating. I mean, have fun whatever you're playing. I don't care, but fuck Brad.
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Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536
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You are a troll. (to LC) Actually, whether he was trolling or believed it, it's a valid point. UO + (eve Rules & Systems + SpreadSheets) + Mount&Blade Combat + Innovation = Fun Big as UO was, it was big without serious competition until EQ came along and smashed it. Eve is never going to be huge. It's innovative and relevant due to that, but even SOE isn't scared, much less Blizzard. Mount&Blade combat is all sorts of fun but something only Funcom seems to be working for AoC (in the massive sense, I know there's multiplayer systems). That's simply a feature though, not a world unto itself. The world described in that formula is a self-consistent experience nobody's willing to touch though. When John Smedley mentioned "virtual worlds don't sell", it wasn't just that they comparatively are not nearly as successful as diku. It's that because they are not as successful it's hard to get VC and/or publishers interested in it. So they're either niche or doomed. I do believe they're niche because most gamers don't want that level of immersion, but the lack of comparable development budget helps keep them down too. It's not VG that's solely preventing their emergence, but they are to blame as much. Yet another company with copious amounts of cash squandering it on an obviously derivative title already iterated a dozen times prior, going up against a few companies that have already proven almost exactly how to do it right. In building The Vision they doomed themselves to comparable mediocrity by going against companies with simply a lot more cash and reach. The only surprise in VG is that SOE was willing to let it co-exist with EQ2 (some interesting conspiracy theories there from folks here though, many plausible). But they only got the ability to make that game because it was a derivative game very easy to explain simply by pointing at EQ1 and WoW. So, the success of diku in aggregate prevents virtual lifestyles from emerging. Sigil is not blameless. Neither is Blizzard, Square Enix, Mythic and so on. But that's only if you're looking to asfix blame at all. Personally, there's a few million people paying a few billion dollars proving what gamers want from this genre. Trying to hope for a collective epiphany that'll result in pre-Trammel UO emerging as the big title everyone talks about is folly. There's enough here for everyone, but the above is important if you care about why so many people talk about X or Y game.
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LC
Terracotta Army
Posts: 908
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You are a troll.
You are on a journey to Money Town. At some point during this journey the path forks. The path to your right takes you through a safe valley filled with fruit trees and cute furry critters. The path on your left goes over a dangerous mountain filled with hungry mountain lions and steep cliffs. Realistically which path would you choose? Everyone would pick the right path because there is no reason to go left. But what if there was an avalanche, and the right path would no longer take you to Money Town? It's the same for developers. They will choose the safe path as long as you are willing to throw away your money. If Vancrap makes any profit the drought will continue.
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 01:10:00 PM by LC »
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Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613
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The only surprise in VG is that SOE was willing to let it co-exist with EQ2 (some interesting conspiracy theories there from folks here though, many plausible). But they only got the ability to make that game because it was a derivative game very easy to explain simply by pointing at EQ1 and WoW.
I'm not totally surprised by this. I think they attract a similar gamer and that fact alone will sell more boxes off the shelf. I do see the issue you're getting at in that they will likely draw subscribers from eachother and that's where the real money in mmo's lies. In my estimation putting VG on the station pass was probably the safest bet in getting back some return on investment. If VG were standalone, I think their losses may have been considerable. At least this way they will get revenue from box sales due to a willingness of station subscribers to dabble as well as perhaps aiding in retention of existing pass holders.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Slayerik
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4868
Victim: Sirius Maximus
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I am with the highly unpopular Sinij/Slayerik(Nija?) party You sure Falc? We have beer, azzrape t-shirts, are psychotic, and generally live in the past. Its a rough life, but we are "pre-trammel UO 'pinnacle of MMO' d00ds". Fighting the good cause from now till we finally get out of our parent's basements! On topic, if you like Vanguard, play Vanguard. If its a steaming pile of shit to you, don't play it. I think I'm tired of both sides of this argument.
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"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together. My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
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Azazel
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Did you really need ten lines to call yourself a carebear?
All you really did was send a message to developers: "Yes, I'll gladly buy your feces in a boobie covered carton!"
You continue funding this shit, and the rest of us suffer because of that. The money thrown away on these shitty games could be funding the next UO instead. (I don't mean a UO clone or sequel. I'm talking about a new and innovative game that can do as much for the genre as UO did.)
Carebear? What the fuck are you talkin' 'bout, Willis? if these guys like Vanguard, more power to them. I mean, I'm still going to have fun poking Vanguard with a stick and all on this forum, but whatthefuck do I care if these guys enjoy the game? The rest of us suffer because of that? Go donate your income to a groundbreaking game R&D group, or STFU. It's not VG that's solely preventing their emergence, but they are to blame as much. Yet another company with copious amounts of cash squandering it on an obviously derivative title already iterated a dozen times prior, going up against a few companies that have already proven almost exactly how to do it right. In building The Vision they doomed themselves to comparable mediocrity by going against companies with simply a lot more cash and reach.
The only surprise in VG is that SOE was willing to let it co-exist with EQ2 (some interesting conspiracy theories there from folks here though, many plausible). But they only got the ability to make that game because it was a derivative game very easy to explain simply by pointing at EQ1 and WoW.
So, the success of diku in aggregate prevents virtual lifestyles from emerging. Sigil is not blameless. Neither is Blizzard, Square Enix, Mythic and so on.
Well, let's be blunt. Blizzard don't give a fuck, because they are wearing gigantic money hats. SOE never gave a shit before, as they were the ones with the largest money hats. Even Sigil, who don't appear to be wearing much of any kind of hat at all, started development when EQ1 was still big dog, and as fucked in the head Brad is, he was still upfront with and about what he wanted to make. Which was just EQ1+ Tell me about these conspiracy theories.
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Azazel
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I agree. Wholeheartedly. Is Vanguard preventing that to happen?
Yes. You're a fuckwit.
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Morat20
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Posts: 18529
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Even Sigil, who don't appear to be wearing much of any kind of hat at all, started development when EQ1 was still big dog, and as fucked in the head Brad is, he was still upfront with and about what he wanted to make. Which was just EQ1+
Tell me about these conspiracy theories.
Offhand, I always thought the logic went like this: 1) SOE will lose EQ/EQ2 some subs to VG, even if it sucks. If it's good, they'll lose a lot. 2) If Vanguard is on Stationpass, then SOE isn't losing all that money. EQ/EQ2 players move to Vanguard, still pay SOE through Station Pass. At best, they decide they don't have to make a break with EQ/EQ2 and pay for access to both -- more money for SOE. So from SOE's view, they're limiting the number of people who permanently quit EQ/EQ2 to move to an entirely different game, AND getting at least some of the money from those who do totally move. You can only play one station pass game at a time, so SOE's costs are relatively fixed. SOE now gets a cut of all Vanguard only subs, might lure a bunch of players to shell out a bit more per month just to access Vanguard, and hedges against potential losses if Vanguard has legs. It's a nice play.
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Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536
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Tell me about these conspiracy theories. Going by memory here, but the one I liked the most was the idea that if/when VG tanks, or falls below the revenue they need to support the team they have, resources can be shifted over to EQ2. I know Sigil is not part of SOE per se, but that really doesn't matter if the successful group wants to hire/steal from the unsuccessful one. It's a win-win for SOE: bring people to Station Pass, as a result sell them to other experiences, particularly EQ2. It's a very close experience, but works much better, is way more content complete, has had two years of major game and tech tuning, and is not nearly as sadistic. People may claim they want sadomasochism in their gaming, but the changes in EQ2 and steep decline in EQ1 since WoW launched belies that there are many of them. There are more people checking out VG than just those who want the uber hardcore, and EQ2 sits there waiting for them. And I wasn't really saying that Blizzard being a valid target for blame matters to Blizzard :) Just that if people want to understand why it's the diku experiences that get the cash, it is because of games like that which collect the cash. It's easy to point to success and explain how to replicate it. @LC: VG is irrelevant to that continuation. It'll barely register a blip, which is fine as long as they can make a profit. It's just not a herald of things to come because all it does is continue the echo of the past. It's about WoW not tanking right now, for the uncreative money seekers. Innovation can happen in games attempting to be a mass-hit (figuratively speaking). But it'll happen within games wrapped with diku overtones. On this side of things anyway. There's other sides though. Innovation in general is coming, it's just coming for an audience not conditioned by Vox raids and corpse runs. There's derivation in the browser-based casual MMOs targeting tweens and teens too, but them not being for us is because they're for a larger audience.
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shiznitz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4268
the plural of mangina
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It's a niche play.
You forgot a letter. SOE is too conservative (or realistic?) to invest $50 million in anything so they are trying to fill a basket with pretty pebbles instead of building a barbican.
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I have never played WoW.
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Valmorian
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1163
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They will choose the safe path as long as you are willing to throw away your money.
If Vancrap makes any profit the drought will continue.
You seem to be unable to see that these people who are "throwing away their money" don't see it that way. They are enjoying the game. They're paying for something they want. Capitalism is a bitch sometimes, no?
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Azazel
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Ah yes, I've heard (and espoused some of) those theories myself, especially on the Station Pass angle. Certainly right that Vanguard is a bigger threat to the EQ2 playerbase (even short-term) than to any other MMO, so they may as well own both sides of the cannibalisation. You seem to be unable to see that these people who are "throwing away their money" don't see it that way. They are enjoying the game. They're paying for something they want.
Apparently that's a hard concept for some. When I am king, you will be first against the wall....
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Belce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 39
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The game is derivative? Isn't that really the case for any came, it developed from another? American football is a crappy derivative of rugby?
When I introduce people to wargames one of the things I use to start out with is "Its a wargame, like chess." So regardless of effort to make your game not derivative you are going to have to derive part of the game experience from something else that a person could associate with fun. Meaning that regardless of what you do, there will always be someone able to say that is derivative and look down their nose at you.
If you were ever to come up with something completely new and original, no one would like it because they wouldn't know why to like it.
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LC
Terracotta Army
Posts: 908
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You seem to be unable to see that these people who are "throwing away their money" don't see it that way. They are enjoying the game. They're paying for something they want.
I realize that the world is full of worthless idiots.
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HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42628
the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring
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The game is derivative? Isn't that really the case for any came, it developed from another? American football is a crappy derivative of rugby?
Belce, there's influenced by and completely derivative. They aren't the same thing. Someone trying to play (or watch) Rugby who has grown up on American football has trouble following it. I know I do. It requires a bit of a learning curve. That's being influenced by rugby as opposed to just being a straight derivative of it. Someone who plays EQ1 would have so little trouble playing VG that they might as well be the same game. That's derivative. And unfortunately, for every DIKU game out there, a person who plays on DIKU can pick up another DIKU MMOG in no time. I don't look down my nose at the people who play it, other than the catass Cult of Brad who likes having their nuts pinched to be hardcore. Those idiots deserve derision. I look down my nose at rockstar developers with fathead egos who call their retread of a 1st gen MMOG a 3rd generation MMOG like it's somehow the next coming of robot jesus.
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Azazel
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I realize that the world is full of worthless idiots.
I enjoy the irony you provide. Seriously though, if you're going to post in this thread, please try to add some content besides insult-laden one-liners in an attempt to become one of the cool kids by beating up a defenceless opponent. The adults here are trying to have a discussion, profanity-laden as it may be.
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Furiously
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7199
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Ah yes, I've heard (and espoused some of) those theories myself, especially on the Station Pass angle. Certainly right that Vanguard is a bigger threat to the EQ2 playerbase (even short-term) than to any other MMO, so they may as well own both sides of the cannibalisation.
I can see it having an attaction to the same person.
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Raph
Developers
Posts: 1472
Title delayed while we "find the fun."
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Trying to hope for a collective epiphany that'll result in pre-Trammel UO emerging as the big title everyone talks about is folly.
Well, unless you recognize Runescape as being that game. Honestly, it's damn close.
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Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613
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I realize that the world is full of worthless idiots.
I enjoy the irony you provide. Seriously though, if you're going to post in this thread, please try to add some content besides insult-laden one-liners in an attempt to become one of the cool kids by beating up a defenceless opponent. The adults here are trying to have a discussion, profanity-laden as it may be. If he finds me to be a worthless idiot because I'm having fun in a game, that's his option. It's just one of the glorious benefits of being a part of the anonymous internet. I've not stated that Vanguard was a great game. I've not stated that I think it's innovative. I simply stated that some of the gameplay suits my preferences. If that threatens people to the point that they need to make a personal attack, then they obviously don't have a more astute point to make.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Nija
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2136
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2. Shaman pets are still bugged and occasionally will attack group members when healed by disciple spells
3. The level 15 shaman totem quest is bugged. It allows you to get it at level 12, but if you take it then you don't get the reward at 15.
4. Mobs are still having warping, pathing, and z-axis problems. I had several mobs hit me from underground. Fighting on hilly terrain can produce comical results.
5. I fell through the world not once but twice last night. What really made me laugh is that I fell 4k units vertically and about 6k units horizontally. I ended up on a plain like 6k s of where I started. People like different things. I've heard of people who enjoy having their balls stapled to their leg. Maybe you should try that out if you have some time to kill this weekend.
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Azazel
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Why would he need to do that? He's already playing Vanguard. But yeah, people like different things. There's no accounting for taste. In fact, if I could play Vanguard in godmode without any risk of death or aggro, and with a high-speed flying mount, I'd probably give it a go for a week or two, just to explore the much-vaunted scenery. I'd skip the diku, though I guess I'd be happy with the weapon selection from something like Far Cry.
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Miasma
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5283
Stopgap Measure
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I think we can all agree that LC is some sort of demented sociopath but he's fun to laugh at.
As far as the imbecilic carebear "insult" I'd point out that Vanguard is one of the few games that has a free for all server where you can kill anyone, anytime over level six. Duoing with someone and want to make sure you get that nice piece of loot that dropped? Kill him. Mommy didn't give you enough attention after she left your Dad for your Uncle? Go gank newbies in their starting city since the guards don't even protect anyone. Since they have put almost no effort into the PvP code it would be ripe for cheating by miserable little exploiters too.
And finally calling it "Vancrap" is weak, surely you can come up with something better, ideally that something would rhyme with Vanguard, like Van"tard". See, and I didn't even bother putting more than two seconds of thought into that.
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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Demented sociopaths don't whine like bitches because the industry they're following have decided their particular lineage of consumer isn't worth catering to, because it drives away other consumers the industry would rather serve. Instead, they go into those other products and practice their manevolent little brand of glee, until they're booted or their mischef tools are taken away and then repeat the cycle anew.
No, he's a whiny bitch who's upset that his exact brand of PvP isn't being given. Nevermind games like EvE or DAoC, or the stuff on the horizon. Apparently that's all too carebear because there's safe zones and they can't find a shard and dominate. (Particularly not in EvE, where BoB will eat your lunch.)
"QQ" more, as they say. Your complaints about the industry give me a chuckle every time because they're self-inflicted.
As to Vanguard itself, things sounds like it's nearly exactly what was predicted. A buggy, unfinished piece of crap that caters to people who fancy that games should punish you to force social behavior. If it weren't so damned buggy, I'd have predicted they'd hit 150-200k easy (and I did somewhere once.) As it is, I don't think enough people are willing to drop the $50 to suffer for Brad's art. Perhaps in time, if things get finished or there's a free download.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613
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As to Vanguard itself, things sounds like it's nearly exactly what was predicted. A buggy, unfinished piece of crap that caters to people who fancy that games should punish you to force social behavior.
I'm guessing we have a very different approach to playing these games. My free time is so limited that I don't waste it on something that I'm not having fun with. Right now, I solo and have yet to feel a) pressured to group nor b) punished. If I ever do, I'll leave for something else. I'm not hooked on the achiever mentality in games. My life is already rich with it.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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LC
Terracotta Army
Posts: 908
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I think we can all agree that LC is some sort of demented sociopath but he's fun to laugh at.
That's funny coming from a lonely basement dweller willing to grind away years of his life in Vancrap. As far as the imbecilic carebear "insult" I'd point out that Vanguard is one of the few games that has a free for all server where you can kill anyone, anytime over level six. Duoing with someone and want to make sure you get that nice piece of loot that dropped? Kill him. Mommy didn't give you enough attention after she left your Dad for your Uncle? Go gank newbies in their starting city since the guards don't even protect anyone. Since they have put almost no effort into the PvP code it would be ripe for cheating by miserable little exploiters too.
PvP without death penalties (looting) is a waste of hardware and bandwidth. It's also not worth my time. In fact it shouldn't even count as pvp. And finally calling it "Vancrap" is weak, surely you can come up with something better, ideally that something would rhyme with Vanguard, like Van"tard". See, and I didn't even bother putting more than two seconds of thought into that.
Vantards would be (you) the players. How does Vangarbage sound?
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rk47
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6236
The Patron Saint of Radicalthons
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why don't you just play quake or counterstrike if u want to pvp ? you can take their guns and grenades after they die. I'm sure it's not hard to pretend that money = exp and weapons = level ups :)
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Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
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Azazel
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I have to agree with that. PVP in every MMOG I've played or even sampled has been overwhelmingly crap compared to any number of FPS games. "Looting" doesn't add any value to the shitty pvp in any of these games. If you want to PVP as a regular thing, do it because the PVP itself is good fun. "Death Penalties" in any form mean jack shit when the actual PVP mechanics are sorely lacking.
And mate, your "badass" insults are really subpar for this board. I know you doubtlessly "pwn the fucking VN boards" or some shit, but really, go back, work on your material, and then come back and try again. The best insults come from either having an interesting personality attatched or having content attatched. Or both. You're 0/2 right now.
Please, no "I know you are, but what am I?" responses.
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Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942
Muse.
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Well, this thread has had a proper Baka bugger up. Isn't it time to sink it?
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My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
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Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613
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I got pwnd for my opinion. I'm basking in humiliation.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Signe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18942
Muse.
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Just remember: Fun is wrong.
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My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
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Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613
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I'm still trying to get over the fact that I've ruined the mmog industry by getting a copy of Vanguard. The shame is unbearable.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Azazel
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So anyway, how's the server stability now? Has it improved much since release? Are they still patching daily? Any more mentions of Blood Elves?
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LC
Terracotta Army
Posts: 908
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Please, no "I know you are, but what am I?" responses.
Do you receive brownie points for defending the Vantards?
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Azazel
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In all seriousness, it appears that your endless set of one-liners are just trying to get this thread denned. I'd really prefer not to have that happen, as there are interesting facets to this thread's conversations, and we've already had one thread derailed into the Den. I'm going to ignore you from here on out, because you're not even entertaining to reply to, as Geldon is.
So please, stop trolling. Or perhaps could one of the mods just gut the last page's worth of bullshit posts into the Den and let this thread contue in a halfway-intelligent manner?
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Cheddar
I like pink
Posts: 4987
Noob Sauce
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Next UO? I am all for it. I am with the highly unpopular Sinij/Slayerik(Nija?) party: post trammel UO is shit, pre trammel UO is the pinnacle of MMO history. I guess that makes me the opposite of a carebear. But those days are over and it's not because of Vanguard. Blame EverQuest, blame the people who chose EQ over UO, blame World of Warcraft.. blame the world.
I am also in that camp. You get them, tiger! PS. I got your message. The mocking bird flies south for the winter. Send pretzels!
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No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
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