Raph is no longer taunting us (Metaplace)

[Merusk]

Healers are the only ones required to have that much data onscreen - 40 folks health bars.  That particular healer apparently doesn't know how to use his mods well at all, as I had plenty of realestate when playing a priest.    There's also better mods out there than CTRaid these days.

[Modern Angel]

Holy fuck, no kidding! That dude needs to adjust the size of every button on his screen, for one, get out of 800x600 for another. That's some hideous UI management there.

[Ironwood]

Just in case anyone thought Raph was just being sarcastic  :-D

omgholdme ?

[Venkman]

Healers are the only ones required to have that much data onscreen - 40 folks health bars.  That particular healer apparently doesn't know how to use his mods well at all, as I had plenty of realestate when playing a priest.    There's also better mods out there than CTRaid these days.

This came up before. Can't remember the thread and too lazy to look. You're right on all counts: most players don't need to play this way, there's better mods, yadda yadda. The point (beyond light comedic value ;) ) was that some people do play this way. This particular woman used to play this way. Not sure what her HUD looks like these days. I believe she chose that way because while she wasn't singlehandedly responsible for healing and buffing the entire raid, she wanted to look out for everyone anyway. She's also the one that brought me into the meta-game guild I've been in for five years. So where some see omgubergeekwtf?! I see "Den Mother"  :-D

[Slyfeind]

I like how "Omgholdme" and "Boredom" both are offline. I'll bet they logged off together.

[Soln]

why? is one a healbot on /assist for the other?

[Trouble]

That screenshot is filled with noobs!!!

[HRose]

I had the better screenshot.

[geldonyetich]

Just in case anyone thought Raph was just being sarcastic  :-D

I had the better screenshot.

Once those unnecessary chat windows are eliminated, it's all that big raid block, really.  I'd almost go so far as to say that it proves raids are bad gameplay by GUI limitation... but I suppose that's just a matter of optimization. 

For example, have a raid window where nobody's health bar shows up unless they're injured.  Yeah, AOE would screw that up... maybe just prioritize most damaged at the top of the window.  Or would that make gameplay too simple? 

Bah, this line of thinking is why the GUI is the game.

[Ironwood]

Er, like Emergency Monitor ??

[Venkman]

Once those unnecessary chat windows are eliminated, it's all that big raid block, really.  I'd almost go so far as to say that it proves raids are bad gameplay by GUI limitation... but I suppose that's just a matter of optimization. 

For example, have a raid window where nobody's health bar shows up unless they're injured.  Yeah, AOE would screw that up... maybe just prioritize most damaged at the top of the window.  Or would that make gameplay too simple? 

Bah, this line of thinking is why the GUI is the game.

Unless you've been there, it's hard to truly judge.

Players made these UIs the way they are because that's how they prefer to play. I have a different preference. I'd rather try and watch the game than manage the UI, which is why playing a Mage is more my speed. I don't want to care so much about what everyone else is doing that I'm effectively working a stock trader window/

In terms of modding the UI as you'd suggest, the specific encounters of WoW (and other diku endgames) can be very different, even within the same instance. What boss mobs do, what healers are required to do, what secondary abilities classes are needed to employ, it's all very fungible. Obviously there's some commonality to everything, but not enough for one magical mod to rule them all.

So you end up with players constantly refining their UI over time, through iterative play. I don't know how many iterations Hrose' UI went through, but my friends' long since moved on from the shot I grabbed on the last page. My own hasn't really had to be modified too much. I even took off the Damage Meters thing in the lower right. I found I just don't care that much. As long as I'm adding to the aggregate of damage, whether I'm first or tenth, I really just don't give a rip, particularly when I'm outclassed by my friends who can play per day what I can barely manager per week.

[Nonentity]

Yeah, well, as a raiding Shaman, my screen is filled with a variety of bars at all times. The mockup was the game WITHOUT UI mods. So, if that game were a raiding game, with custom UI mods, you wouldn't see any of the terrain at all. I was being generous.

I can streamline and refine, but there will still be a lot of bars. Thankfully, I'm running at a widescreen 1440x900, so I can shove stuff off to the sides and still manage to see things.

This is an old screenshot of my UI - it's changed since the Before the Storm patch (mainly Healer's Assist and Decursive has been replaced with Clique and Grid), but it's the same basic idea. I had all the windows popped out to show someone how it looked. Also, I'm wearing Tier 3 now, blah blah, e-peen, etc.

But yes, a healer's UI is invariably looking like that. As it stands in most raiding MMOs currently, you don't play the game, you play the UI.

[Nebu]

As it stands in most raiding MMOs currently, you don't play the game, you play the UI.

... and people find that "fun"?  I'm dumbfounded. 

[damijin]

Silly boy, who told you MMOs were about fun exclusively?

Raiding is about achievement.

[Strazos]

Achievement? It's a damn game, stop it.

If you want achievement, go achieve somewhere where it actually matters in life.

[Nebu]

If you want achievement, go achieve somewhere where it actually matters in life.

Like Zelda?

[damijin]

I didn't say it was right but that's what it is. MMOs serve up achievement in a nice easy to swallow pill (WoW even gives you a glass of water to help it go down) for those who might otherwise find it difficult to take the suppository in real life!

[Strazos]

Ah, so that's actually green up there? Hmm...

[Nonentity]

As it stands in most raiding MMOs currently, you don't play the game, you play the UI.

... and people find that "fun"?  I'm dumbfounded. 

I never mentioned 'fun' anywhere. Because it's not.

I'm not currently raiding anymore, really. Not to say I don't like playing healers, but I really can't think of another mechanic to keep a large amount of people healed, other then a clunky UI.

[damijin]

No, it's white. It's an observation, not to be taken lightly, but not necessarily something I agree with. Though, I'll admit that I played MMOs for achievement, and when I realized what I was doing I stopped. I realized I was slaying dragons instead of going to college. Maybe it was a personal problem, because I know a lot of people with massive real life achievements who also play end-game MMOs. But I can't help but think that even they use it to supplement their real world achievement. Some people just like to achieve a lot!

[Trouble]

If you have a well crafted raid UI that you've been using for a while it will take up less space and it will also become an extension of your brain almost to the point where you don't see it anymore. You just know the information you need to know, and you watch what's going on in the raid. At least at the higher end, in AQ40 and in Naxxramas. Those two raid instances have many encounters where you have to watch your surroundings and respond accordingly, often by moving in a specific way.

As a healer I also visually identify people on my screen who need healing by watching for specific things that will hit them on many boss encounters. It's quicker than watching the health bars sometimes. It also takes more experience, however, because it requires you have a very good idea of what type of damage said spell will cause, and also are able to to identify quickly what class it hit and as a result how critical it is to heal them (mages have the fewest hitpoints, warriors and warlocks have the most, etc).

The truth really is that the UI screen interruption is highly variable. Yeah, healers have to look at bars. But the extent to which you have to fixate on them and how much of your screen real estate is taken up by them is a big variable. The more experienced your are and the quicker your reflexes are the less you have to stare at bars. Some people just aren't as quick and as a result really can't be looking around. I know because we had to cut a lot of them from the guild when we were killing C'Thun and progressing in Naxxramas. Some people are bad at designing UIs or lack experience doing it. Over time you find out a lot of those mods taking up screen real estate are really not that useful or there are substitute mods that have a much smaller or no screen signature.

[Venkman]

As it stands in most raiding MMOs currently, you don't play the game, you play the UI.

... and people find that "fun"?  I'm dumbfounded. 

In a slot machine or lottery sorta way. You play to win.

Other activities you play to play.

It's all in the same game. DAoC has these parts to. Are you RvRing only because every second of every day is only about the momentary fun you are having?

This is an old screenshot of my UI - it's changed since the Before the Storm patch (mainly Healer's Assist and Decursive has been replaced with Clique and Grid), but it's the same basic idea. I had all the windows popped out to show someone how it looked. Also, I'm wearing Tier 3 now, blah blah, e-peen, etc.

Please tell me you don't actually play with your Spellbook, Character Sheet and all bag slots open and that this screenie was just to show the skin you're using (which is more refined than the default artsy one). Turn off all of that stuff and you've got a pretty good window. Do most people play that way? Maybe to some degree, given their role.

[Nebu]

It's all in the same game. DAoC has these parts to. Are you RvRing only because every second of every day is only about the momentary fun you are having?

If you are after semantics, DAoC RvR offers a diversity in abilities through advancement rather than improvement in my gear.  While both are advancement paths, I find one that offers a greater character diversification superior to one that offers me more loot.  I'm not really interested in loot beyond getting enough to allow me to compete adequately in pvp.  Fortunately the loot in DAoC I use is mostly player-crafted so I don't have to obtain much through PvE (I actually just do what I can to obtain cash and buy what I need, further reducing the need to raid for gear). 

For the record, my comment was more one of being amazed that people feel so much satisfaction in obtaining items that they are willing to endure hours of staring at a UI pressing a heal button when needed.  Different strokes for different folks.

[El Gallo]

For the record, my comment was more one of being amazed that people feel so much satisfaction in obtaining items that they are willing to endure hours of staring at a UI pressing a heal button when needed.  Different strokes for different folks.

Some people dig it because it's very twitchy.  I don't, but I'm not a real twitch fan.  But I can see how some twitch people like 40 bars, any of which could change in a moment (whether damaged or debuffed or whatever) and requires an almost instant reaction to prevent a wipe.  Me, I'd use mods to avoid all that, and then complain that I'm bored.  Which is why I don't usually play healers.

[Merusk]

As it stands in most raiding MMOs currently, you don't play the game, you play the UI.

... and people find that "fun"?  I'm dumbfounded. 

I never mentioned 'fun' anywhere. Because it's not.

I'm not currently raiding anymore, really. Not to say I don't like playing healers, but I really can't think of another mechanic to keep a large amount of people healed, other then a clunky UI.

There's different ways of going about it than reactive healing.  However, since all games are based on Empty HP bar -> refill HP bar that's the broken mechanic.  Allowing healers to mitigate or nullify damage? That'd be awesomesauce and much better than watching 40 hp bars.

  Most damage & tanking classes reflect Darniaq's personal UI shot more than the Priest UIs.  Healers are the ones who get fucked in the equation in WoW.  Damage Classes, Tanks, Offtanks?  They're playing the game, working with mechanics and aggro management and movement, etc.  Healers are the ones who have to play the UI, where each encounter is pretty much the same scene - 40 HP bars.  This is what leads to "healer burnout" most often, and it's one of the primary reasons I don't play healer in raids anymore.

[Venkman]

If you are after semantics, DAoC RvR offers a diversity in abilities through advancement rather than improvement in my gear. While both are advancement paths, I find one that offers a greater character diversification superior to one that offers me more loot. I'm not really interested in loot beyond getting enough to allow me to compete adequately in pvp. Fortunately the loot in DAoC I use is mostly player-crafted so I don't have to obtain much through PvE (I actually just do what I can to obtain cash and buy what I need, further reducing the need to raid for gear).

For the record, my comment was more one of being amazed that people feel so much satisfaction in obtaining items that they are willing to endure hours of staring at a UI pressing a heal button when needed. Different strokes for different folks.

I'm not familiar enough with current DAoC, but do find diversification from ability more fulfilling than gear. But that's only because I haven't really been afforded gear that really diversifies my abilities. It does exist, it's just hard to get :) But really, that's a more fundamental question about motivation in this genre, not really about WoW vs DAoC. I think that's what you were saying in your second paragraph though.

I'd be interested in your screenshot though. Do you seriously play RvR simply by looking at your character and your targets? And is that just based on long training in recognizing the graphic effects of the various abilities in the game? I ask because that really does apply to any game.

[Strazos]

I tried using my buddy's priest in AV once, and put up a bunch of bars with the intention of doing lots of healing. The MOST annoying problem I ran into was that I had no way of telling at a glance if the person I wanted to heal was actually In Range. So what I ended up doing was having no target, loading a heal onto my cursor, and just trying to hit people with heals until one actually landed.

I dunno...I actually liked playing a priest for awhile in WoW...the PUG bullshit killed it for me. Also, back when I was playing it (before the huge Holy tree buff), solo PvE was Boring and SLOW.

[Venkman]

"loading a heal on the cursor"

I don't play healers, ever. Even if I do roll a Draenei Priest in a week, they'll be a Shadow Priest, purely for PvP funtimes. But the above quote got me wondering about how you play.

Can't you simply target someone and hit the whatever-Heal button on your keyboard based on whatever-Heal icon you put in that hotbar? I find that a heck of a lot easier when trying to nuke someone. I haven't used my mouse to select a spell since they put the ability to use ALT-# to cast a spellgem in EQ1. I know people who do use their mouse to click spells (which I did have to do in UO until I could assign them hotkeys), but never figure out how they can do it fast enough :)

To me a Priest would be: select target, cast Heal. The icon for the Heal spell should be grayed out (or the number grayed out if you don't have a mod installed), which immediately indicates you can't cast it on the target because they're out of range.

But like I said, I don't player healers.

[Merusk]

Yes, you can heal that way. It's usually the most efficient, unless you're in the situation Straz mentioned.  Then you may as well just keep a spell on your cursor and tag whoever you see getting hit.  Tagging them, then hitting casts expends precious microseconds in pvp.   I think doing this not only casts the spell on them but targets them too, so double bonus.

 You can do the 'load onto cursor' thing with any spell and I think any ability, but I haven't tried it with those.  Think of it as ghetto precasting, I suppose.

[Venkman]

So you mean the actual spell icon is on the cursor itself, like floating like? I've never even considered trying that. If it works the way I think it does (will test at lunch or tonight) that would make my nuking life a lot easier. Currently I run around spamming whatever instant timer is up until I get the target in range.

[Ironwood]

Um.

Your wee gauntlet glows blue.

[WayAbvPar]

I am sure there is a cream or something that can clear that up in a couple of weeks.

[Fargull]

Um.

Your wee gauntlet glows blue.

I found this profoundly funny this morning.  Thank you.

[Slayerik]

Jeez guys, can't we get back to Raph bashing already?

Oh and my advice for anyone that wants to get better at any game out there.... get a nostromo. I have had the edge for the last few years in all types of encounters from PVP to 40 man raiding. 20-some commands all within one hand and never having to look at a keyboard or button bar will do that. Speed kills, or saves if you are a priest like I was ;)

[Nebu]

Oh and my advice for anyone that wants to get better at any game out there.... get a nostromo.

People have been using the N52 in DAoC for quite a while.  Unfortunately, they've been using it for the macros as well as the utility... which is a no no.